WEBVTT
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Every organization you will ever work with inside is running an invisible operating system, a set of rules that nobody hands you from day one.
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Rules that determine who gets ahead, who gets stuck, and why two people with the same talent end up in completely different places.
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My guest today has spent his career inside that invisible system focused on culture.
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Nick Holmes is a PhD researcher in organizational behavior, edX speaker, and the founder of Culture Nova, a cultural diagnostic and research firm.
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Nick, before we get into anything else, one I want to say thank you because since we met, I think we have a lot of really interesting alignment and I just find everything that you're doing fascinating.
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So I'm excited to really unpack more.
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Yes, so excited to be here and talk all of this stuff.
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I know that on it.
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So you have to slow me down at times or aim me off the rails.
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But no, excited to be here.
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Amazing, amazing.
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So love for you to share with the audience a little bit more about you, your background, a little bit more perspective on all things you.
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Oh my goodness, how long have you got?
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No, I have such a squiggly career, which is like part of the reason I guess I am who I am.
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I went to university to study performing art, so I wanted to be a TV presenter, of course.
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And then I got uh into film school in Los Angeles and I budgeted myself to stay there for a year.
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I ran out of money after six months, but I managed to finish the like briefly get through a bit of the course.
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Came back to London, was an actor for a bit with air.
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I need to put air quotes in this, by the way.
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Actor with air quotes.
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I had a million jobs to live in London whilst trying to pursue this dream.
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One of those was working at an aquarium selling photos of people of themselves, like literally as you walk into an aquarium, take a picture of yourself, and then try and sell that photo back to you, you know, in the days of printing photos out and putting them in books and all sorts of stuff, which is quite funny.
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Turns out I was really good at selling stuff.
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And then I was still like 21 early, you know, at this point.
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And I said to my managers, like week one, I was like, why can't everyone sell this amount of money?
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And then we could all make more money.
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That makes sense.
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And they're like, You're like, you've been here a week, but sure.
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Try.
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Like a literally, yeah, go for it.
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So I was like, okay, fine.
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And so literally, I was two weeks in or something, and I ran a training session for 40 members of retail staff, a London Aquarium, and the backdrop was the shark tank about sales.
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And all I was teaching, I'd write them all scripts, and I was like Googling Muhammad Ali clips and all this kind of thing.
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So that was sort of like part one, and then that was amazing.
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I got to travel the world at that point to Barcelona, Dubar, Australia, New Zealand, all over to train and all across the states to train staff and sales and changing their behaviours.
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I then wanted to take on more of the people landscape as I grew in that role and that career.
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That's why I got my CIBD qualifications.
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I was the head of HR and tech firm, and then I wanted a bit more purpose in my life.
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So I moved to a healthcare firm to become the VP of learning and culture.
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I got a master's in employment law and on that journey.
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I did a lot of thought leadership and tech and well-being.
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And yeah, and now I'm on this really incredible journey through the PhD.
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I founded a cultural intelligence and research firm called Culture Nova.
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And I'm also the CLO, the chief learning officer at a firm called Unthink, who are one of the most, the most amazing L and D behavior change consultancies on this planet because they're challenging the status quo.
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Normal wasn't working.
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So yeah, we're changing behaviors in a really cool, unique, and novel way.
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So it's a very squeaky.
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There's lots of moments in there, lots of stories in there, of course.
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But yeah, that was a pretty whistle stop tour of me of the last, what, 14 years or so.
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My goodness.
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I think that what's really cool is you've gone after everything.
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And I think that also everyone that moves to LA runs out of money.
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So it's not just you know, RGB.
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I was 21, my my third day there, and I've quickly realized there's a whole lot of things.
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So I went to university in Middlesbrough in the UK.
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It was a lovely town.
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Like, honestly, it's like one of those places you adopted your own.
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But then you go from Middlesbrough to Los Angeles.
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It's quite a funny.
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So yeah, no, but I had a great time.
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I had a great time.
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That's amazing.
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And I love your story and I love the squiggly career.
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It's like we've all had it for sure, and it's definitely not what you think about when you start at the beginning.
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So tell me a little bit more on your field of practice for those that don't have any idea around organizational behavior, organizational culture.
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Let's start there.
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What is that for the listener?
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Yeah, really good, really good, good question.
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So, organizational behavioral studies is looking at why organizations work the way they do and how people show up within those organizations.
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And when we think about work, we think about the thing that we do most in our life after sleep.
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Yeah.
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It takes up uh the majority of our adult life and can impact everything from the relationships that we have to the mindset and wellness that we feel every single day.
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So organizational behavioral studies and my field of research specifically is about culture, is really understanding why organizations make the decisions they do every single day, why some organizations grow, why some constrain.
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And what drove me to this is I've worked in organizations where I've sat and I've listened to founders and CEOs and managing directors and leaders talk about how exciting the future is through growth, through opportunity.
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And with that, those simple words, a sentence, 30 seconds, it can impact an entire organization of hundreds to thousands of people instantly in a feel-good way.
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So if you're sat there going, This is great, I want to be a part of this, the energy that you then feel that you take into your life, your relationships is wild.
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It's so big and powerful.
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I've also sat on the other side where leaders and CEOs and MDs have said, we have to make cuts.
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We are being sold.
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We haven't hit what we've needed to hit.
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And I felt the very real reaction of that the other way, where the intense anxiety feeds into a person, to a family, to a livelihood.
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So what I want to do is really crack the nut on how and why organizations grow.
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And what is it?
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What's the secret behind it?
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And for me, that has to be culture.
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A really good way that brings us alive is my mum is a foster carer in Kent.
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So what that means is in the UK is she looks after kids that don't have anywhere else to go.
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And these boys and girls can come from all over from the UK, but all over the world as well.
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And she looks after the age group between sort of 13, 14 and up.
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And she's had a few years ago now, it was amazing, right?
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So she's got these two boys who are about 16, 17, wanting to get them jobs.
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There's a road just down from my mum's, has two car washers on the road, right?
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Literally one either side of the street.
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And both the boys managed to get jobs at each of the car washers.
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And I'm over for dinner and we're talking about this one day, and I'm talking about how's the work going?
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And one of them's like, I was really slow, like, no cars.
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And the other one's like, I don't understand how you have no cars.
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He's always backed up.
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And I'm like, this is interesting, tell me more.
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Anyway, long story short, the one who works at the firm with the car wash with the where cars that keep coming in, is like, I met the owner on the first day.
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He told me this story, he asked every new customer.
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He says, before he washes a car or asked someone to wash their car, he asked, like, why are they getting their car washed?
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And they would always say, I'm going to a wedding or I need to pick me up, I'm going on holiday.
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And they kept coming back for that.
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And I said, Oh, what happens for you?
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And the boy who doesn't have any customers to say, Oh, I just got shown how to use the tools and then said wash the cars.
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And each one had the exact same look and feel, they have the exact same tools, one's growing, one's not.
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That's culture.
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And for me, that started me on this thread that I kept pulling.
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So yeah, and it's just when you see it play out, no market conditions are the same, the finance is the, you know, the investment looks exactly the same look and feel, but but something's happening there that isn't the other one.
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And what we need to do as a society is understand why we behave the way we do.
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And culture is the system that produces organizational behavior.
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It's so, so interesting because you know, anyone that you speak with and you give advice to people and you say, the culture is so important that you step into, but it's so hard to define what that actually means.
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And for me, that culture is a feeling.
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I just kind of know that when I enter an organization or a client that it's a jive for me, or if it's not.
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Tell me more on like how you describe culture to people, because I find such a hard time talking about what that means.
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Yeah.
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Well, you're not, you, Lori, you're not alone.
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We've been studying this thing for about 150 plus years.
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1800s is when the first sort of scripture, the text, the literature came out about organizational culture.
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And since then, we've got over 164 academically defined versions of this thing that we all know is important.
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It sits in boardroom discussions from Major League Baseball teams to healthcare firms and the schools and everywhere in between, right?
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It's everywhere.
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The most common definition is very similar to what we've just said.
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It's the way things are done around here.
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It is a set of behaviors or values.
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The problem is when we treat something like a set of something, it becomes quite static.
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And we know that culture, as you mentioned, it kind of does change and it moves, it's live, it's alive every single day.
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The reverse of that is if we just leave it alone as a state of feeling, of vibe, of being, and you treat it like the weather, it becomes nearly impossible to measure.
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And so the issue that we have as an entire industry is we tend to gauge the effectiveness or the strength or the health of our culture on a metric like engagement.
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So we measure how people feel.
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And there's nothing wrong with measuring how people feel.
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Knowing how people feel is important in organizations.
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But asking how you feel isn't asking why the system is behaving the way it is or why culture is behaving the way it is.
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So I define culture through my research as a living operating system, as an OS, much like you'd see on your phone, right?
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So you think about your iPhone, it's probably running on iOS 2 million and four or whatever the latest iOS.
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And within the system, there are four specific domains that determine the health of that system.
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So the first one, we call that maps.
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And maps is the intention, the integrity between what you say as a business and what you actually do, how your purpose shapes your priorities, is strategic clarity, it's the values that you state making action happen in your business.
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And there's the rules that are written and unwritten.
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The second domain, we call this wires, right?
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And this is how information flows through teams, it's how incentives take place in the business, it's decision rights and decision power in the organization.
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The third domain is really important.
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We call this patterns, that's behavioral memory, it's psychological safety, it's that deliberate action of inclusion in your organization, it's being able to be direct and candid.
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And the final domain, that's sparks.
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We call that BARS because it's all about how learning happens in the business, how failure gets approached, how leaders model and managers practice and adapt.
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All of those different domains compound and produce behavior.
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And your organizational behavior then determines whether or not you grow, whether you constrain as a business or you're contracting and shrinking.
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What we want to do, and what we need to do is measure the system, not the sentiment.
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Because we can ask how you feel, like do you trust your business?
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Do you like your leaders?
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Do you align to the vision?
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Yeah, I feel all that.
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But we would need to measure why the system's behaving the way it is.
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And when you know how a system behaves, you can focus on the constraint that's slowing it down the most.
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And when you know what's slowing your system down, you know what to change.
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A little bit like your phone.
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If you're running iOS 4 and you've got 20,000 apps, it's gonna be slow.
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It's not gonna load properly, it's gonna be fatigued, you're gonna get frustrated.
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You've got to delete the apps, rewire the system, upgrade the system, and add the apps back in after that.
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Yeah, that's so interesting.
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You know, it makes me think about the question of is there good culture and bad culture, or is there just misaligned people to the right organizations?
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Good question.
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First of all, everyone has a culture, whether you think or not.
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It's like the essence of fish to ocean, right?
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That's kind of like a thing I heard recently, which I like.
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So you have a culture.
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In terms of good or bad, I think remember that no one will ever have a purely bad culture everywhere.
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There'll be pockets, and culture is made up of sub-teams and sub-cultures.
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Your system isn't just everyone doing one thing all the time, it's multiple teams interacting and work in different ways.
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I like to treat culture as health.
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So when we think about cultural health, then we can talk about how healthy or not your culture is.
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So there'll be parts of the system that are operating fine, parts that are unhealthy that we need to go in and address in order to improve the overall health of the system.
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So I like to think about it as the we produce what's called a cultural health index through the field work coming up, right?
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So when we go to an organization and we run a diagnostic and we say, like, here's your cultural health on the cultural health index from critical of health.
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If you think about that, when you've got like, okay, I need to see a doctor and I'm really poorly, I need to go in now and get an op, to thriving because you're in your 90s and going on marathons.
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Yeah, that's where we want people to go.
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So when we talk about culture and we align it to health, I think that's really important place.
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Yeah, you're right, because there also is a very real alignment to that in terms of your workplace, does affect your health, right?
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So there is certainly a bigger picture in that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And it's not just the cultural health, as you mentioned, all of that rolls up to the individuals, then feedback into the system.
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So all of these things can pound.
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But people don't realize.
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I was thinking about this other day, I appreciate it as a slight tandem.
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Most people associate burnout and high levels of stress.
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So burnout is a result of chronic stress at work.
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More stress you feel, the burnout, the symptoms that come with that.
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Most people associate that with overwork, too much work.
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But the reality is the biggest factor in workplace, high stress to which leads to burnout, is role misalignment.
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So if you have problem ambiguity and anxiety about what it is you're supposed to be doing and where your value truly lies in the organization, it causes burnout faster and it compounds quicker than overwork that ever does.
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So, like when we talk about cultural health as a system, that's why we start at the map space, strategic clarity, unwritten rules, making sure you know what's expected.
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That's got to start there.
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That can ease you into then information, decision flow incentives, etc.
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So they all flow.
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Yeah, it's so interesting because a big part of what I talk about in real work, Greddy, is about all those unwritten rules as well that you just kind of learn over time.
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And I think there's the standard in professionalism and corporate, right?
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And then there's the cultural per organization.
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But how do you work with the organizations that you help on defining what their own unwritten rules are and like pulling that out of them?
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So the written rules are the ones that dictate the unwritten rules, right?
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So, you know, one of the things I was fascinated about is law.
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And I thought when I went, I did my master's in employment law, it was a little bit like when you build an organization, you're building a city, right?
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And so you're putting in the pipe works, the schematics, the planning, the roots.
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Law is a bit like that in organizations.
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It's the, you know, we don't rise the level of our expectations, we do fall to the level of our systems and process.
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So when it comes to the written rules in the organization, are they contradictory to what you're trying to achieve as a business?
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And so what I mean by that is you have a policy that says one thing, but the business is saying something else.
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So you don't have enhanced parental leave, but you're saying that we want to be a great place for mums or working parents to come and work for us.
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The two don't match.
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So you're misaligned on the unwritten rules, etc.
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So when it comes to finite in the unwritten and then seeing what is, it's like, how do you set standards in the business?
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And how are people held accountable to those standards that you're setting?
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And that people know what's expected of them and their roles.
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Is it what was what they're hired for?
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Or is it actually something how how you know your integrity between what you say and what you do, we keep this in maps, but it also stems in the attraction process.
00:14:48.480 --> 00:15:04.879
If I'm bringing a candidate in and saying, you're gonna have autonomy, you're gonna have freedom to shape the department, and you come in and you're like, No, you have to stick within this process, you're going like, Well, your written rule is say one thing, your unwritten rule will say something completely different, and you're giving me a difficult, conflicting message, compounding culture.
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:13.039
And it's so interesting because even if the cultural of the whole organization might be with that intent, right?
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:23.279
It even goes down to the small team level of who your manager is and how they translate those written and unwritten roles into their own small operation.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:29.039
And at the end of the day, that's usually your world, is that small team that you're operating on.
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:30.000
100%.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.360
Managerial practice is the factor, it's such a huge factor.
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:38.879
You know, if you think about feeling in an organization, managers can determine up to 70% of the variable in that, right?
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.720
And what's brilliant, like Simon Sinek talks about this from a pilot perspective.
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:49.120
Do you want a pilot who sticks to the rules all the time, or do you want a pilot that's gonna get you to your destination as safely as possible?
00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:53.200
And sometimes in order to get to your destination as safely as possible, you might have to break a couple of the rules.
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.879
I want the pilot that's gonna get me there safely versus the pilot that's gonna follow all the rules.
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:08.879
And managers conflicted, you have managers who have high levels of EQ, who have been brought up, educated, and gone through learning experiences, so they are ready to act in the safest way possible for your people versus following all the rules.
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:15.840
And you have managers who either manage the way they've always been managed, which might be follow the book or get gone, in which case they just relay that down.
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.120
They relay the message down versus nuancing it and flexing it.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:26.399
And when you're new into an organization or new into your career, you need someone who's gonna tell you this is what the book says, but this is how we're gonna operate and this is why.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:28.240
And if there's a conflict, this is why.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:34.879
And we're gonna help your career and I'm gonna get you to your destination because ultimately the business succeeds if I can get you there.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:39.679
So it's just about being able to have managers who have that level of adaptability in EQ.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.799
But they place you in how the organization succeeds.
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:53.120
So, what advice would you give to someone that is looking to join an organization is going through the process of saying, is this organization the right fit for me?
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:58.960
I think there's questions you can ask at interview if you know you're this is a place where you're excited to go.
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:03.440
Two things before I get there though, don't jump to an organization because the brand is shiny, right?
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:09.920
Because quite often, more than not, you go, I want to go and work for an IBM, I want to go and work for a JP Morgan, I want these names.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:16.880
And whilst they offer quite enhanced benefits in packages, they will be potentially just at detriment to the culture health.
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:27.039
Whereas smaller firms, more nimble firms, firms that really want you to come and are desperate for you to join will help nurture you at the early stage of your career or the next stage of your career much better.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:31.599
And you'll have autonomy, you'll have connectedness, relatedness, self-determination theory, we know matters.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:35.920
So, first of all, just be really clear what you're jumping into and don't just jump to the shiniest brand.
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:37.680
Make sure you're being really selective.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:38.640
Do your research.
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.680
We've never lived in a more accessible to information age.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.720
So get into Claude and do it, give me a holistic view of what this company's done and stands for over the last three years.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.440
Ask Claude how have their actions externally mapped their purpose that they say.
00:17:51.599 --> 00:18:01.119
So, for example, if you've got a firm that says we prioritize our people, our well-being is really important, you can do a really deep scan to see all of the initiatives that have actually taken place.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:05.359
And if they're jumping back one or two things in three years, big red flag for me, right?
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.680
And you can ask the same thing in the interview process.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.079
And when you go into the interview process, if you're asking about culture, don't ask what's the culture like.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:19.039
Because 95% of times people will return back, oh, it's really great, it's supportive, we go on socials, the office is brilliant.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.359
You know, I'd be asking slightly different questions.
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.680
Like this says, within my first 90 days, how are you gonna make sure that I'm set up for success?
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.440
What is the process that I'm walking into in the early days of my career?
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:30.960
What does progression really look like?
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:31.680
What does it mean?
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:36.400
Have you got a clear set of standard expectations for me to walk into as I start my new role?
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.599
When pressure is on, how do the leaders behave in the organization?
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.640
So powerful, such a cool question that people really struggle with.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:48.559
And then just read, use your EQ to read on their responses, note that down and come prepared with good questions, is what I would say.
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:50.319
Yeah, that's that's really good advice.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:56.880
And I think that your practice, your focus, and culture nova is so timely right now.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:03.759
My big focus is on the Gen Z population because that's where most early professionals sit right now.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:12.319
And they are the generation that is the forerunner in terms of the importance of value and aligning with cultures on that.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.079
So I love that your advice that you give.
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:21.200
And you're right, there's so much available at our disposal, and it's about asking those right questions when you have the opportunity to do so.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:22.079
It's powerful.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:28.000
I spoke about this in my TED talk, but we have seemed, and this is why this generation is so much stronger in many ways.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.720
And we need to really focus on this though, is curiosity.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:33.519
Like we do not lose your ability to be curious.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:39.440
Curiosity is one of the most powerful skills that is gonna come forward in 26 over the next five years.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:46.559
And what I mean by curiosity is the ability not just to agree with everything you hear and say yes to everything that's given to you.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.680
It's the ability to say, I'd like to find out more about that.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:51.519
I'm gonna go deeper in this area.
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.119
I'm gonna research this.
00:19:53.279 --> 00:20:01.359
Like the power of research, the joy of academia, and people think of this thing as this like stale institution of I have to do my exams or have to get educated.
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:03.839
The power in academia is curiosity.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:10.720
Without a shadow of a doubt, it makes you get curious over areas that you're passionate about as you go further in higher education.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.680
Or if you're not so passionate about, you can draw links to this.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:33.119
And where technology and curiosity come together is a way to, like, for example, I'm using Claude Cowork right now to run daily briefs for me in all the latest in neuroscience, experiential learning, memory, organizational behavior, and any cool fun stuff and stories from over the last, you know, thousand years that brings to life these things.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.519
So every morning I get a daily brief of all this cool stuff.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.400
So I read it with my coffee, and that's my start of my day.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.480
So the ability to get curious, this generation, Gen Z have got that power.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:56.400
They can go and drive that, and then they can shine the light to the rest of the organization of what curiosity really means because they're so fresh out of that area, that bubble of curiosity, that they can they need to keep that curiosity mowing through in their next steps, basically.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.480
Yeah, no, it's super interesting.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:03.920
And I think it's even more interesting that there's four generations now in the workplace at the same time.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:19.839
And it's also this balance of being cognizant of the company culture that you're walking into and coming in with this curiosity idea is how do you deliver that in a way that resonates with the culture that you stepped into, right?
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:25.759
And I do think that that's a balance to strike in terms of how effective you are in the organization.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:26.319
100%.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.000
Like you're never as more influential as you are in your first 90 days.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:31.279
So you've got to use it, right?
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.279
Because you're new, you have fresh energy.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.599
The same time, curiosity is your power to build relationships across the business.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.839
If you come in like a bulldozer and go, it's not very good, this is rubbish.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.519
You remember people who have spent their time and their livelihoods building things that you're stepping into.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:50.240
And I haven't met any leader whose intent isn't wanting to build something great and do something brilliant for their people.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:57.039
The problem is that their system has been compounding over time without diagnosis and left to cause issues in different places.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.119
Come in in the time and get curious straight away.
00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.759
And curiosity.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.880
For me, early career means meet as many people as you can.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.640
Say yes to absolutely everything.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:12.799
If I didn't say yes, the opportunities, the relationships, the meetings, and just instead of when you go into a meeting a new person, don't go in with the same agenda.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.400
Don't go in and say, Who are you?
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:14.960
Where's your role?
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:15.440
Where are you from?
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.480
What'd you go to the office?
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.079
Go in and be like, what have you learned over the last three years about working here?
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:24.480
What do you think, you know, what is the thing that, you know, you shouldn't tell me, but tell me.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.599
Like all of these kinds of questions you should ask and get curious around.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:34.400
He only needs three or four really interesting questions to ask to build a brand new relationship in a much more deeper, more meaningful way.
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:34.640
Yeah.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:54.559
The skills moving forward, AI literacy, yes, but the ability to really build a cool relationship internally, to make trust happen fast, so that when you need something, whether it's a next step, whether it's a partner to someone to come with you on a project, whether it's the change journey, people will trust you more if they believe in you, if you have a connection.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.400
That is what it all boiled down to.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:06.799
I think that with everything related to AI, I don't know about you as great as it is, but I get nauseous hearing the word every day as well in every sort of tea.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:09.440
I was like, when I did my TEDx, they were like anything but AI.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:11.359
And I was like, thank you, to be honest with you.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:11.759
Yeah.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:12.640
I was like, it's great.
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.160
I get to talk about joy instead.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:15.519
So yeah, I'm Yeah.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:21.440
Well, I think that the part that makes all the difference is how you form those human connections with people.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:29.279
To your point on culture, how do you develop an organization that people understand, believe in, want to be at, want to contribute to?
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.440
So yeah, I think that's where like we're overdoing the AI.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:40.960
And I think it's a huge opportunity for people to really focus on the human elements of making themselves professional, present, and all those good things.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:24:00.960
I want to briefly move into Culture Nova in terms of what you've seen and what has surprised you through the research and findings that you have, because you were able to show me your product, your company the last time that we spoke, and I was like, oh my goodness, why don't I have this?
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.680
So tell me a little bit more of what you've learned, what you built.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:09.759
Yeah, so what we built is, and it all sits on our side, there's no tech burden in the organization, but it's a diagnostic tool.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.240
So essentially what we do through three data points.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:20.799
So we have a behavioral instrument, which is 48 behavioral statements that the team, the organization with diagnostic, will answer truthfully through a strong agree, disagree.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:22.640
And it's very observed what we're looking at.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:27.839
So I want to pivot for a second and go a little bit deeper into culture and over itself.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:36.720
You were able to show me your company, your product last time, and I was completely astonished with what you've built, all the research, dedication that went into it.
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:44.400
So tell me, what have you learned by putting tooling, capability, and technology to a culture problem?
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.920
Yeah, I know, right?
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:56.559
Well, I think first of all, we're going after the traditional engagement survey industry because I don't think that what we're getting as a world is moving the needle on performance enough and not, you know, growing an organization grows your people.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.680
There is not one before the other.
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:02.160
You have to grow, if you grow a business, you set the conditions for success, people can flourish in that.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:13.119
So what we do is we've built a really cool diagnostic uh tool, which essentially the all the tech sits on our side, but we diagnose organizations through three data points.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.160
We start with a behavioral instrument, which is 48 behavioral statements, and they're very observed.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:25.680
So we're asking people, for example, in the last six weeks, I've seen a leader make a decision that's directly linked to a strategy that's been communicated with me.
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:26.960
Agree, not agree.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.359
So we're talking about the observe, what's being seen.
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.960
The second data point is we do what's called gap listening sessions.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:40.319
And what these are is we talk to different cohorts in the business and managers, leaders, new starters, or functions like procurement, sales, IT, customer service.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.440
And we ask them a series of really challenging questions, but the same questions.
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.799
And then we play that mirror back.
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.079
So we see the fault lines between what two groups are saying about the same thing.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:55.680
The final thing then we do is we use a triangulation, so either external data to see what they're saying is matching up with what they're saying in the world, or strategy data as well.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:01.599
So strategy decks and KPIs to make sure that what we're playing back is linked and talking the business language.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.039
What's produced is a live, living diagnostic and a scroll.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:15.359
We have this stunning domain breakdowns, we tell you the cultural health of your organization, we pinpoint the specific constraint that's holding you back and give you the 90-day sprint to fix it.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:22.559
We've built Nova, she is a cultural diagnostician that lives inside this as well, so she can guide you through every single interaction too.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:23.519
It's been pretty powerful.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:28.000
We've got live diagnostics signing up all the time at the moment, which is really, really cool.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.599
That adds to the research, but also just helps organizations find their formidable.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:40.880
I think that the thing that has surprised me the most about this process is how poorly articulated what the business believes or businesses believes to their people.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.559
And what you're selling in is not what's lived when you're in.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:51.279
And so this mismatch of expectation and in some ways integrity is actually detrimental to culture and cultural health.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:58.559
So the first thing that organizations just need to do is ground themselves in why they are here and then make sure that everyone in the business sees their role in that.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.880
If you can start at that point, a very strict strict campaign on that, you'll start to move.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.039
And then there's some nuance, there's some surgical action.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:16.000
Managers, and this is where Umthink just it lights up the room because leadership development, manager behavior, organizational change through those behaviors to leaders and managers, it comes alive in there.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:24.319
And that's why I'm so passionate about that work as well, because we see managers ill-equipped to actually deal with the nuance and the challenges that organizations face.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:29.920
Well, and it's so interesting because you just had said the managers are really the biggest piece of this.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:36.079
Like they are the ones that are executing on this culture assigned by the executive team.
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:36.559
Exactly.
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:37.920
Yeah, exactly.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:45.440
They play such a role to educating them and giving them investment and experiential learning is going to be the way that saves organizations for sure.
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:46.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:47.759
It's so, so interesting.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:54.480
So for those coming in that maybe they're not as open to the culture discussion, right?
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:58.559
It doesn't matter, not irrelevant, my people are happy, that sort of thing.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.480
What is the business results that they're missing out on?
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:09.359
Because I imagine that there is a lot of financial impact in having a culture that's not working for them.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:10.079
100%.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.000
We built an ROI calculator.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:14.880
So we can send this afterwards that shows you the cost of poor culture.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:15.920
Yeah, I'd like to see that.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:16.160
Yeah.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.680
It's putting on your and it's very, very real, very relevant, and it's conservative.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:21.119
There is a financial gap.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:27.680
And even if the research proves it, and the reason why we've built a domain is that way we've done is back through the research.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:34.799
And so we know organizations that have attained purpose to people's roles, outperform their peers by two times at least.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:42.000
We know organizations who have quote unquote healthy or culture have about six times EBITDA, five times revenue on share price.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:43.680
I mean, all of these things compound.
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:44.559
We know that happens.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:45.440
And this is two things.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:50.400
A, we need to equip people professionals better with ammo as they work, walk into a boardroom.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.559
And the CHI, the culture health index, will do that.
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.759
But also, for execs, they need to know that in order for growth to take place, right?
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:05.839
In order for performance of organizations to outperform their peers, you're going to have to understand why your culture is behaving the way it is.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:12.240
Because you spend millions on transformation that will never get realized if the way that teams work together is broken.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:12.880
And that's it.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:18.559
So before you spend a million in investment, spend a tiny fraction of that and diagnose what's actually happening.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:19.119
Mm-hmm.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.680
Mm-hmm.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.799
Yeah, it's just starting with the basics, right?
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:26.240
Know what's behaving, know where the problems are, fix the problems and then transform.
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:26.480
Yeah.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:27.599
Yeah.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:33.279
I think too often we're trying to say, you know, how to cut costs here, how to diminish uh diversify.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:34.559
Start with the basics.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:35.680
What are you after?
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:37.119
What is your culture all about?
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:37.680
I love it.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:42.400
So we're gonna do a quick little rapid fire so folks can get to know you.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:43.119
All right.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.240
So this has not been prepared, obviously.
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.680
So are you ready?
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:48.799
Yeah, fire up.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:49.279
That's good.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:50.720
Okay, let's do it.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:54.480
Best piece of career advice that you were ever given.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:55.920
I'm not allowed to swear on this, am I?
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:56.559
I won't swear.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:57.599
Yeah, go for it.
00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:58.400
We swear here.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.599
Don't be a dick.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:00.640
Okay.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:02.240
So straightforward, right?
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.920
So honestly, don't be a dick.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.200
Be great to work with.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:06.880
Like, be great to work.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:14.000
If you're great to work with and you're kind and you're a good human and you put the energy in, you will get the rewards in your workplace.
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:15.519
I love it.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:16.799
It's spot on, too.
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.240
One word that describes what bad culture feels like.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:20.880
Anxiety.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:21.519
Good one.
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:22.799
Joy or purpose.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:24.000
Which one do you chase?
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:24.640
Joy.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.119
Always.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.920
A book that changed the way that you think about your work.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.759
Culture Code by Dan Coyle.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.039
Finally, last one.
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.279
What was your first job and what'd you get paid?
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.640
My first job was I was worked at a leisure center.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:44.240
So in the UK, they're like where they big swimming pools and like tennis courts and stuff like that I was running kids' parties and working in the gym.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:46.240
I was on£5.20 an hour.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:46.799
Wow.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:49.359
Hopefully, hopefully a big change.
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:49.680
I know.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.599
Hopefully a big change for where you are now.
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:52.240
It's funny.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.279
Like, I love there is so much joy in working early.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.759
Like, work early because you learn so many things.
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:01.119
I then I worked at Nando's, I worked at nightclub uh throughout my career.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.480
I've worked at all over cool places.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.000
I worked at Hamley's Toy Store.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.920
All of these were minimal pay jobs.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.000
But without them, there's no way I would have learned the skills that I've got today.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.240
All of them were customer focused and facing.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.039
But work with people and around people as soon as you can.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.559
It gives you so many cool skills.
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:17.519
Yeah, I love that.
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:18.880
I love all my early jobs.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:19.599
They were the best.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:21.279
I go back to them, honestly.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:25.599
If I needed to, I would go back to like waitress saying or something like it.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.039
It's that shot in the arm that sometimes you need.
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:34.480
I've never laughed so hard in my life as I have in moments working like frontline sales.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:42.240
Like we used to at London Aquarium, we used to deal with people from all over the world and trying to sell people's photos of themselves back to them.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:47.359
At one point, I sold someone else's picture to someone else's family.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.079
I'm sure it broke all sorts of GDPR.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.079
The poor family had no idea what was going on.
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.720
I grabbed a photo, put it in their hand, and said, It's 20 pounds.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:55.680
Should we take that one home?
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:57.920
And they just said me 20 pounds.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.160
They walked out with someone else's photo.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:04.880
Like honestly, that was just one example of like a thousand examples.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:11.759
But like when we talk about chasing joy, it's the moments to be able to sit back and like laugh your face off in moments.
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:12.640
Exactly.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.039
Genuinely, like it's my issue is like seriousness and work is a big, big issue.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.519
Like, you know, when the pressure is always on, you just suck out those, you know, suck out the joys.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.799
You've got to inject it through humor and just moments, just like this is just so fun and different.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.079
So I know.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:29.359
No, I I'm with you.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:40.079
So the final question that I asked all of my guests before they sign off is nobody told me this, but once I found it out, it changed everything for me.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.680
Wow, nobody told me this.
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.839
But once I found it out, it changed everything for me.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:47.119
You will always catastrophize your failures more than anyone else.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:48.960
And you will fail a shit ton.
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.359
And that is beautiful and wonderful.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.119
But remember, oh my God, people get over it really quickly.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:58.720
And you know, and you can yourself just use it to make yourself better.
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.519
Don't catastrophize the moments that go against you.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.680
Use them as moments that just can make you so much more powerful.
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:10.799
So that's so powerful and a healthy reminder for everyone, including myself.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:11.599
So thank you.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.720
So, Nick, thank you so much for joining.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.559
Where can folks find you?
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.359
Check out getting a diagnostic, all that good stuff.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:20.319
Yeah, and all good.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.640
Hit me up on LinkedIn is the best place to start.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.319
Um, Nick Holmes dash HR.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:24.960
I'm on there.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.680
You can check me out at cultural.co.uk and weunthink.com.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.960
And we can change your life and your organization in so many different ways.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.599
I'm on TikTok at the Culture Doctor Nick Holmes as well.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:37.759
If you want to see some video content, then please do.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:39.440
But yeah, come out come along, say hi.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:40.240
So cool.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:41.519
Well, thank you again.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.839
We'll put everything in the show notes, Nick.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.960
It was such a pleasure.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.319
You are inspiring and teaching me something different too, and I'm sure everyone else listening.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:51.680
So thank you so much for your time.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:52.640
Thank you, Laura.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:53.839
Lovely, lovely to be here.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:54.720
It's great conversation.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:55.200
Take care.
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:55.920
Thanks, everyone.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.519
Every organization you will ever work with inside is running an invisible operating system, a set of rules that nobody hands you from day one.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:17.280
Rules that determine who gets ahead, who gets stuck, and why two people with the same talent end up in completely different places.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:23.519
My guest today has spent his career inside that invisible system focused on culture.
00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:33.520
Nick Holmes is a PhD researcher in organizational behavior, edX speaker, and the founder of Culture Nova, a cultural diagnostic and research firm.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:44.320
Nick, before we get into anything else, one I want to say thank you because since we met, I think we have a lot of really interesting alignment and I just find everything that you're doing fascinating.
00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:46.880
So I'm excited to really unpack more.
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.679
Yes, so excited to be here and talk all of this stuff.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:50.640
I know that on it.
00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:55.280
So you have to slow me down at times or aim me off the rails.
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:56.799
But no, excited to be here.
00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:58.000
Amazing, amazing.
00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:06.239
So love for you to share with the audience a little bit more about you, your background, a little bit more perspective on all things you.
00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:08.000
Oh my goodness, how long have you got?
00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:12.400
No, I have such a squiggly career, which is like part of the reason I guess I am who I am.
00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:16.719
I went to university to study performing art, so I wanted to be a TV presenter, of course.
00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:23.359
And then I got uh into film school in Los Angeles and I budgeted myself to stay there for a year.
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:28.719
I ran out of money after six months, but I managed to finish the like briefly get through a bit of the course.
00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:31.519
Came back to London, was an actor for a bit with air.
00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:33.439
I need to put air quotes in this, by the way.
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:34.560
Actor with air quotes.
00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.000
I had a million jobs to live in London whilst trying to pursue this dream.
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:51.439
One of those was working at an aquarium selling photos of people of themselves, like literally as you walk into an aquarium, take a picture of yourself, and then try and sell that photo back to you, you know, in the days of printing photos out and putting them in books and all sorts of stuff, which is quite funny.
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:53.120
Turns out I was really good at selling stuff.
00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:55.599
And then I was still like 21 early, you know, at this point.
00:01:55.760 --> 00:02:00.560
And I said to my managers, like week one, I was like, why can't everyone sell this amount of money?
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:01.920
And then we could all make more money.
00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:02.480
That makes sense.
00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:05.120
And they're like, You're like, you've been here a week, but sure.
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:05.599
Try.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.359
Like a literally, yeah, go for it.
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:08.560
So I was like, okay, fine.
00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:17.039
And so literally, I was two weeks in or something, and I ran a training session for 40 members of retail staff, a London Aquarium, and the backdrop was the shark tank about sales.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:22.240
And all I was teaching, I'd write them all scripts, and I was like Googling Muhammad Ali clips and all this kind of thing.
00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:24.719
So that was sort of like part one, and then that was amazing.
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:35.039
I got to travel the world at that point to Barcelona, Dubar, Australia, New Zealand, all over to train and all across the states to train staff and sales and changing their behaviours.
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:39.840
I then wanted to take on more of the people landscape as I grew in that role and that career.
00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:41.520
That's why I got my CIBD qualifications.
00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.360
I was the head of HR and tech firm, and then I wanted a bit more purpose in my life.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.159
So I moved to a healthcare firm to become the VP of learning and culture.
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.639
I got a master's in employment law and on that journey.
00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:54.800
I did a lot of thought leadership and tech and well-being.
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:58.560
And yeah, and now I'm on this really incredible journey through the PhD.
00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.159
I founded a cultural intelligence and research firm called Culture Nova.
00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:13.599
And I'm also the CLO, the chief learning officer at a firm called Unthink, who are one of the most, the most amazing L and D behavior change consultancies on this planet because they're challenging the status quo.
00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:14.719
Normal wasn't working.
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:17.840
So yeah, we're changing behaviors in a really cool, unique, and novel way.
00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.120
So it's a very squeaky.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:22.719
There's lots of moments in there, lots of stories in there, of course.
00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:27.680
But yeah, that was a pretty whistle stop tour of me of the last, what, 14 years or so.
00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:29.039
My goodness.
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.800
I think that what's really cool is you've gone after everything.
00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:37.280
And I think that also everyone that moves to LA runs out of money.
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:38.800
So it's not just you know, RGB.
00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.919
I was 21, my my third day there, and I've quickly realized there's a whole lot of things.
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:45.680
So I went to university in Middlesbrough in the UK.
00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:47.039
It was a lovely town.
00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:49.520
Like, honestly, it's like one of those places you adopted your own.
00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:51.680
But then you go from Middlesbrough to Los Angeles.
00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:52.639
It's quite a funny.
00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.560
So yeah, no, but I had a great time.
00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:55.199
I had a great time.
00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:56.400
That's amazing.
00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.840
And I love your story and I love the squiggly career.
00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:05.120
It's like we've all had it for sure, and it's definitely not what you think about when you start at the beginning.
00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:13.439
So tell me a little bit more on your field of practice for those that don't have any idea around organizational behavior, organizational culture.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:14.400
Let's start there.
00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:15.680
What is that for the listener?
00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:18.399
Yeah, really good, really good, good question.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:26.319
So, organizational behavioral studies is looking at why organizations work the way they do and how people show up within those organizations.
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:31.360
And when we think about work, we think about the thing that we do most in our life after sleep.
00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:31.680
Yeah.
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:40.480
It takes up uh the majority of our adult life and can impact everything from the relationships that we have to the mindset and wellness that we feel every single day.
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:51.680
So organizational behavioral studies and my field of research specifically is about culture, is really understanding why organizations make the decisions they do every single day, why some organizations grow, why some constrain.
00:04:51.759 --> 00:05:03.279
And what drove me to this is I've worked in organizations where I've sat and I've listened to founders and CEOs and managing directors and leaders talk about how exciting the future is through growth, through opportunity.
00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:12.319
And with that, those simple words, a sentence, 30 seconds, it can impact an entire organization of hundreds to thousands of people instantly in a feel-good way.
00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:19.600
So if you're sat there going, This is great, I want to be a part of this, the energy that you then feel that you take into your life, your relationships is wild.
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:20.959
It's so big and powerful.
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:27.040
I've also sat on the other side where leaders and CEOs and MDs have said, we have to make cuts.
00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:28.720
We are being sold.
00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:30.399
We haven't hit what we've needed to hit.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:38.160
And I felt the very real reaction of that the other way, where the intense anxiety feeds into a person, to a family, to a livelihood.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:43.279
So what I want to do is really crack the nut on how and why organizations grow.
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:44.079
And what is it?
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.199
What's the secret behind it?
00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:46.639
And for me, that has to be culture.
00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:50.240
A really good way that brings us alive is my mum is a foster carer in Kent.
00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:54.720
So what that means is in the UK is she looks after kids that don't have anywhere else to go.
00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:59.519
And these boys and girls can come from all over from the UK, but all over the world as well.
00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:03.360
And she looks after the age group between sort of 13, 14 and up.
00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:05.680
And she's had a few years ago now, it was amazing, right?
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.360
So she's got these two boys who are about 16, 17, wanting to get them jobs.
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.439
There's a road just down from my mum's, has two car washers on the road, right?
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:15.600
Literally one either side of the street.
00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.720
And both the boys managed to get jobs at each of the car washers.
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.639
And I'm over for dinner and we're talking about this one day, and I'm talking about how's the work going?
00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.439
And one of them's like, I was really slow, like, no cars.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:27.680
And the other one's like, I don't understand how you have no cars.
00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:28.959
He's always backed up.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:31.120
And I'm like, this is interesting, tell me more.
00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:39.199
Anyway, long story short, the one who works at the firm with the car wash with the where cars that keep coming in, is like, I met the owner on the first day.
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:41.920
He told me this story, he asked every new customer.
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.160
He says, before he washes a car or asked someone to wash their car, he asked, like, why are they getting their car washed?
00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:49.120
And they would always say, I'm going to a wedding or I need to pick me up, I'm going on holiday.
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:50.319
And they kept coming back for that.
00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.000
And I said, Oh, what happens for you?
00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:57.680
And the boy who doesn't have any customers to say, Oh, I just got shown how to use the tools and then said wash the cars.
00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:01.839
And each one had the exact same look and feel, they have the exact same tools, one's growing, one's not.
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:02.480
That's culture.
00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.439
And for me, that started me on this thread that I kept pulling.
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:15.040
So yeah, and it's just when you see it play out, no market conditions are the same, the finance is the, you know, the investment looks exactly the same look and feel, but but something's happening there that isn't the other one.
00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:19.439
And what we need to do as a society is understand why we behave the way we do.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:23.120
And culture is the system that produces organizational behavior.
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:35.199
It's so, so interesting because you know, anyone that you speak with and you give advice to people and you say, the culture is so important that you step into, but it's so hard to define what that actually means.
00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:37.920
And for me, that culture is a feeling.
00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:45.600
I just kind of know that when I enter an organization or a client that it's a jive for me, or if it's not.
00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:52.399
Tell me more on like how you describe culture to people, because I find such a hard time talking about what that means.
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:52.720
Yeah.
00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:54.639
Well, you're not, you, Lori, you're not alone.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.519
We've been studying this thing for about 150 plus years.
00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.560
1800s is when the first sort of scripture, the text, the literature came out about organizational culture.
00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:08.879
And since then, we've got over 164 academically defined versions of this thing that we all know is important.
00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:16.480
It sits in boardroom discussions from Major League Baseball teams to healthcare firms and the schools and everywhere in between, right?
00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:17.040
It's everywhere.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:19.839
The most common definition is very similar to what we've just said.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:21.839
It's the way things are done around here.
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.720
It is a set of behaviors or values.
00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:30.480
The problem is when we treat something like a set of something, it becomes quite static.
00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:35.919
And we know that culture, as you mentioned, it kind of does change and it moves, it's live, it's alive every single day.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:45.679
The reverse of that is if we just leave it alone as a state of feeling, of vibe, of being, and you treat it like the weather, it becomes nearly impossible to measure.
00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:53.519
And so the issue that we have as an entire industry is we tend to gauge the effectiveness or the strength or the health of our culture on a metric like engagement.
00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:55.039
So we measure how people feel.
00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:57.200
And there's nothing wrong with measuring how people feel.
00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:59.840
Knowing how people feel is important in organizations.
00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:06.159
But asking how you feel isn't asking why the system is behaving the way it is or why culture is behaving the way it is.
00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:13.519
So I define culture through my research as a living operating system, as an OS, much like you'd see on your phone, right?
00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:18.320
So you think about your iPhone, it's probably running on iOS 2 million and four or whatever the latest iOS.
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:23.120
And within the system, there are four specific domains that determine the health of that system.
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.600
So the first one, we call that maps.
00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:37.759
And maps is the intention, the integrity between what you say as a business and what you actually do, how your purpose shapes your priorities, is strategic clarity, it's the values that you state making action happen in your business.
00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:39.840
And there's the rules that are written and unwritten.
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.080
The second domain, we call this wires, right?
00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:49.360
And this is how information flows through teams, it's how incentives take place in the business, it's decision rights and decision power in the organization.
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:51.200
The third domain is really important.
00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:59.440
We call this patterns, that's behavioral memory, it's psychological safety, it's that deliberate action of inclusion in your organization, it's being able to be direct and candid.
00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.519
And the final domain, that's sparks.
00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:09.919
We call that BARS because it's all about how learning happens in the business, how failure gets approached, how leaders model and managers practice and adapt.
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.759
All of those different domains compound and produce behavior.
00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:21.360
And your organizational behavior then determines whether or not you grow, whether you constrain as a business or you're contracting and shrinking.
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:25.279
What we want to do, and what we need to do is measure the system, not the sentiment.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:27.519
Because we can ask how you feel, like do you trust your business?
00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:28.159
Do you like your leaders?
00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:29.279
Do you align to the vision?
00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:30.159
Yeah, I feel all that.
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.200
But we would need to measure why the system's behaving the way it is.
00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:38.240
And when you know how a system behaves, you can focus on the constraint that's slowing it down the most.
00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:41.679
And when you know what's slowing your system down, you know what to change.
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:42.720
A little bit like your phone.
00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.559
If you're running iOS 4 and you've got 20,000 apps, it's gonna be slow.
00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:49.360
It's not gonna load properly, it's gonna be fatigued, you're gonna get frustrated.
00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:54.159
You've got to delete the apps, rewire the system, upgrade the system, and add the apps back in after that.
00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:55.919
Yeah, that's so interesting.
00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:07.200
You know, it makes me think about the question of is there good culture and bad culture, or is there just misaligned people to the right organizations?
00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:08.000
Good question.
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.320
First of all, everyone has a culture, whether you think or not.
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.039
It's like the essence of fish to ocean, right?
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.440
That's kind of like a thing I heard recently, which I like.
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:16.480
So you have a culture.
00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.559
In terms of good or bad, I think remember that no one will ever have a purely bad culture everywhere.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.480
There'll be pockets, and culture is made up of sub-teams and sub-cultures.
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:31.360
Your system isn't just everyone doing one thing all the time, it's multiple teams interacting and work in different ways.
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:32.960
I like to treat culture as health.
00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:38.080
So when we think about cultural health, then we can talk about how healthy or not your culture is.
00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:45.679
So there'll be parts of the system that are operating fine, parts that are unhealthy that we need to go in and address in order to improve the overall health of the system.
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:51.279
So I like to think about it as the we produce what's called a cultural health index through the field work coming up, right?
00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:58.080
So when we go to an organization and we run a diagnostic and we say, like, here's your cultural health on the cultural health index from critical of health.
00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:06.399
If you think about that, when you've got like, okay, I need to see a doctor and I'm really poorly, I need to go in now and get an op, to thriving because you're in your 90s and going on marathons.
00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.080
Yeah, that's where we want people to go.
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.080
So when we talk about culture and we align it to health, I think that's really important place.
00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:20.159
Yeah, you're right, because there also is a very real alignment to that in terms of your workplace, does affect your health, right?
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.720
So there is certainly a bigger picture in that.
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:23.919
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:30.320
And it's not just the cultural health, as you mentioned, all of that rolls up to the individuals, then feedback into the system.
00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:31.759
So all of these things can pound.
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:32.879
But people don't realize.
00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:35.440
I was thinking about this other day, I appreciate it as a slight tandem.
00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:37.759
Most people associate burnout and high levels of stress.
00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.159
So burnout is a result of chronic stress at work.
00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.960
More stress you feel, the burnout, the symptoms that come with that.
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:47.039
Most people associate that with overwork, too much work.
00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:52.720
But the reality is the biggest factor in workplace, high stress to which leads to burnout, is role misalignment.
00:12:52.960 --> 00:13:03.519
So if you have problem ambiguity and anxiety about what it is you're supposed to be doing and where your value truly lies in the organization, it causes burnout faster and it compounds quicker than overwork that ever does.
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:10.960
So, like when we talk about cultural health as a system, that's why we start at the map space, strategic clarity, unwritten rules, making sure you know what's expected.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:12.240
That's got to start there.
00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:15.759
That can ease you into then information, decision flow incentives, etc.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:16.639
So they all flow.
00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:24.720
Yeah, it's so interesting because a big part of what I talk about in real work, Greddy, is about all those unwritten rules as well that you just kind of learn over time.
00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:29.840
And I think there's the standard in professionalism and corporate, right?
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.799
And then there's the cultural per organization.
00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:41.679
But how do you work with the organizations that you help on defining what their own unwritten rules are and like pulling that out of them?
00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:45.759
So the written rules are the ones that dictate the unwritten rules, right?
00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.559
So, you know, one of the things I was fascinated about is law.
00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:54.480
And I thought when I went, I did my master's in employment law, it was a little bit like when you build an organization, you're building a city, right?
00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.840
And so you're putting in the pipe works, the schematics, the planning, the roots.
00:13:58.080 --> 00:13:59.679
Law is a bit like that in organizations.
00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:06.080
It's the, you know, we don't rise the level of our expectations, we do fall to the level of our systems and process.
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:12.320
So when it comes to the written rules in the organization, are they contradictory to what you're trying to achieve as a business?
00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:16.399
And so what I mean by that is you have a policy that says one thing, but the business is saying something else.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.720
So you don't have enhanced parental leave, but you're saying that we want to be a great place for mums or working parents to come and work for us.
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:23.679
The two don't match.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.559
So you're misaligned on the unwritten rules, etc.
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:32.080
So when it comes to finite in the unwritten and then seeing what is, it's like, how do you set standards in the business?
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:34.639
And how are people held accountable to those standards that you're setting?
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.120
And that people know what's expected of them and their roles.
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.200
Is it what was what they're hired for?
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:48.320
Or is it actually something how how you know your integrity between what you say and what you do, we keep this in maps, but it also stems in the attraction process.
00:14:48.480 --> 00:15:04.879
If I'm bringing a candidate in and saying, you're gonna have autonomy, you're gonna have freedom to shape the department, and you come in and you're like, No, you have to stick within this process, you're going like, Well, your written rule is say one thing, your unwritten rule will say something completely different, and you're giving me a difficult, conflicting message, compounding culture.
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:13.039
And it's so interesting because even if the cultural of the whole organization might be with that intent, right?
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:23.279
It even goes down to the small team level of who your manager is and how they translate those written and unwritten roles into their own small operation.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:29.039
And at the end of the day, that's usually your world, is that small team that you're operating on.
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:30.000
100%.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.360
Managerial practice is the factor, it's such a huge factor.
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:38.879
You know, if you think about feeling in an organization, managers can determine up to 70% of the variable in that, right?
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.720
And what's brilliant, like Simon Sinek talks about this from a pilot perspective.
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:49.120
Do you want a pilot who sticks to the rules all the time, or do you want a pilot that's gonna get you to your destination as safely as possible?
00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:53.200
And sometimes in order to get to your destination as safely as possible, you might have to break a couple of the rules.
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.879
I want the pilot that's gonna get me there safely versus the pilot that's gonna follow all the rules.
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:08.879
And managers conflicted, you have managers who have high levels of EQ, who have been brought up, educated, and gone through learning experiences, so they are ready to act in the safest way possible for your people versus following all the rules.
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:15.840
And you have managers who either manage the way they've always been managed, which might be follow the book or get gone, in which case they just relay that down.
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.120
They relay the message down versus nuancing it and flexing it.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:26.399
And when you're new into an organization or new into your career, you need someone who's gonna tell you this is what the book says, but this is how we're gonna operate and this is why.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:28.240
And if there's a conflict, this is why.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:34.879
And we're gonna help your career and I'm gonna get you to your destination because ultimately the business succeeds if I can get you there.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:39.679
So it's just about being able to have managers who have that level of adaptability in EQ.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.799
But they place you in how the organization succeeds.
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:53.120
So, what advice would you give to someone that is looking to join an organization is going through the process of saying, is this organization the right fit for me?
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:58.960
I think there's questions you can ask at interview if you know you're this is a place where you're excited to go.
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:03.440
Two things before I get there though, don't jump to an organization because the brand is shiny, right?
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:09.920
Because quite often, more than not, you go, I want to go and work for an IBM, I want to go and work for a JP Morgan, I want these names.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:16.880
And whilst they offer quite enhanced benefits in packages, they will be potentially just at detriment to the culture health.
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:27.039
Whereas smaller firms, more nimble firms, firms that really want you to come and are desperate for you to join will help nurture you at the early stage of your career or the next stage of your career much better.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:31.599
And you'll have autonomy, you'll have connectedness, relatedness, self-determination theory, we know matters.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:35.920
So, first of all, just be really clear what you're jumping into and don't just jump to the shiniest brand.
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:37.680
Make sure you're being really selective.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:38.640
Do your research.
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.680
We've never lived in a more accessible to information age.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.720
So get into Claude and do it, give me a holistic view of what this company's done and stands for over the last three years.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.440
Ask Claude how have their actions externally mapped their purpose that they say.
00:17:51.599 --> 00:18:01.119
So, for example, if you've got a firm that says we prioritize our people, our well-being is really important, you can do a really deep scan to see all of the initiatives that have actually taken place.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:05.359
And if they're jumping back one or two things in three years, big red flag for me, right?
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.680
And you can ask the same thing in the interview process.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.079
And when you go into the interview process, if you're asking about culture, don't ask what's the culture like.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:19.039
Because 95% of times people will return back, oh, it's really great, it's supportive, we go on socials, the office is brilliant.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.359
You know, I'd be asking slightly different questions.
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.680
Like this says, within my first 90 days, how are you gonna make sure that I'm set up for success?
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.440
What is the process that I'm walking into in the early days of my career?
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:30.960
What does progression really look like?
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:31.680
What does it mean?
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:36.400
Have you got a clear set of standard expectations for me to walk into as I start my new role?
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.599
When pressure is on, how do the leaders behave in the organization?
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.640
So powerful, such a cool question that people really struggle with.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:48.559
And then just read, use your EQ to read on their responses, note that down and come prepared with good questions, is what I would say.
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:50.319
Yeah, that's that's really good advice.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:56.880
And I think that your practice, your focus, and culture nova is so timely right now.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:03.759
My big focus is on the Gen Z population because that's where most early professionals sit right now.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:12.319
And they are the generation that is the forerunner in terms of the importance of value and aligning with cultures on that.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.079
So I love that your advice that you give.
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:21.200
And you're right, there's so much available at our disposal, and it's about asking those right questions when you have the opportunity to do so.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:22.079
It's powerful.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:28.000
I spoke about this in my TED talk, but we have seemed, and this is why this generation is so much stronger in many ways.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.720
And we need to really focus on this though, is curiosity.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:33.519
Like we do not lose your ability to be curious.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:39.440
Curiosity is one of the most powerful skills that is gonna come forward in 26 over the next five years.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:46.559
And what I mean by curiosity is the ability not just to agree with everything you hear and say yes to everything that's given to you.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.680
It's the ability to say, I'd like to find out more about that.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:51.519
I'm gonna go deeper in this area.
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.119
I'm gonna research this.
00:19:53.279 --> 00:20:01.359
Like the power of research, the joy of academia, and people think of this thing as this like stale institution of I have to do my exams or have to get educated.
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:03.839
The power in academia is curiosity.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:10.720
Without a shadow of a doubt, it makes you get curious over areas that you're passionate about as you go further in higher education.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.680
Or if you're not so passionate about, you can draw links to this.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:33.119
And where technology and curiosity come together is a way to, like, for example, I'm using Claude Cowork right now to run daily briefs for me in all the latest in neuroscience, experiential learning, memory, organizational behavior, and any cool fun stuff and stories from over the last, you know, thousand years that brings to life these things.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.519
So every morning I get a daily brief of all this cool stuff.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.400
So I read it with my coffee, and that's my start of my day.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.480
So the ability to get curious, this generation, Gen Z have got that power.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:56.400
They can go and drive that, and then they can shine the light to the rest of the organization of what curiosity really means because they're so fresh out of that area, that bubble of curiosity, that they can they need to keep that curiosity mowing through in their next steps, basically.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.480
Yeah, no, it's super interesting.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:03.920
And I think it's even more interesting that there's four generations now in the workplace at the same time.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:19.839
And it's also this balance of being cognizant of the company culture that you're walking into and coming in with this curiosity idea is how do you deliver that in a way that resonates with the culture that you stepped into, right?
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:25.759
And I do think that that's a balance to strike in terms of how effective you are in the organization.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:26.319
100%.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.000
Like you're never as more influential as you are in your first 90 days.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:31.279
So you've got to use it, right?
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.279
Because you're new, you have fresh energy.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.599
The same time, curiosity is your power to build relationships across the business.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.839
If you come in like a bulldozer and go, it's not very good, this is rubbish.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.519
You remember people who have spent their time and their livelihoods building things that you're stepping into.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:50.240
And I haven't met any leader whose intent isn't wanting to build something great and do something brilliant for their people.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:57.039
The problem is that their system has been compounding over time without diagnosis and left to cause issues in different places.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.119
Come in in the time and get curious straight away.
00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.759
And curiosity.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.880
For me, early career means meet as many people as you can.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.640
Say yes to absolutely everything.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:12.799
If I didn't say yes, the opportunities, the relationships, the meetings, and just instead of when you go into a meeting a new person, don't go in with the same agenda.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.400
Don't go in and say, Who are you?
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:14.960
Where's your role?
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:15.440
Where are you from?
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.480
What'd you go to the office?
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.079
Go in and be like, what have you learned over the last three years about working here?
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:24.480
What do you think, you know, what is the thing that, you know, you shouldn't tell me, but tell me.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.599
Like all of these kinds of questions you should ask and get curious around.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:34.400
He only needs three or four really interesting questions to ask to build a brand new relationship in a much more deeper, more meaningful way.
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:34.640
Yeah.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:54.559
The skills moving forward, AI literacy, yes, but the ability to really build a cool relationship internally, to make trust happen fast, so that when you need something, whether it's a next step, whether it's a partner to someone to come with you on a project, whether it's the change journey, people will trust you more if they believe in you, if you have a connection.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.400
That is what it all boiled down to.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:06.799
I think that with everything related to AI, I don't know about you as great as it is, but I get nauseous hearing the word every day as well in every sort of tea.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:09.440
I was like, when I did my TEDx, they were like anything but AI.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:11.359
And I was like, thank you, to be honest with you.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:11.759
Yeah.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:12.640
I was like, it's great.
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.160
I get to talk about joy instead.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:15.519
So yeah, I'm Yeah.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:21.440
Well, I think that the part that makes all the difference is how you form those human connections with people.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:29.279
To your point on culture, how do you develop an organization that people understand, believe in, want to be at, want to contribute to?
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.440
So yeah, I think that's where like we're overdoing the AI.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:40.960
And I think it's a huge opportunity for people to really focus on the human elements of making themselves professional, present, and all those good things.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:24:00.960
I want to briefly move into Culture Nova in terms of what you've seen and what has surprised you through the research and findings that you have, because you were able to show me your product, your company the last time that we spoke, and I was like, oh my goodness, why don't I have this?
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.680
So tell me a little bit more of what you've learned, what you built.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:09.759
Yeah, so what we built is, and it all sits on our side, there's no tech burden in the organization, but it's a diagnostic tool.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.240
So essentially what we do through three data points.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:20.799
So we have a behavioral instrument, which is 48 behavioral statements that the team, the organization with diagnostic, will answer truthfully through a strong agree, disagree.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:22.640
And it's very observed what we're looking at.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:27.839
So I want to pivot for a second and go a little bit deeper into culture and over itself.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:36.720
You were able to show me your company, your product last time, and I was completely astonished with what you've built, all the research, dedication that went into it.
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:44.400
So tell me, what have you learned by putting tooling, capability, and technology to a culture problem?
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.920
Yeah, I know, right?
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:56.559
Well, I think first of all, we're going after the traditional engagement survey industry because I don't think that what we're getting as a world is moving the needle on performance enough and not, you know, growing an organization grows your people.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.680
There is not one before the other.
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:02.160
You have to grow, if you grow a business, you set the conditions for success, people can flourish in that.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:13.119
So what we do is we've built a really cool diagnostic uh tool, which essentially the all the tech sits on our side, but we diagnose organizations through three data points.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.160
We start with a behavioral instrument, which is 48 behavioral statements, and they're very observed.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:25.680
So we're asking people, for example, in the last six weeks, I've seen a leader make a decision that's directly linked to a strategy that's been communicated with me.
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:26.960
Agree, not agree.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.359
So we're talking about the observe, what's being seen.
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.960
The second data point is we do what's called gap listening sessions.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:40.319
And what these are is we talk to different cohorts in the business and managers, leaders, new starters, or functions like procurement, sales, IT, customer service.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.440
And we ask them a series of really challenging questions, but the same questions.
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.799
And then we play that mirror back.
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.079
So we see the fault lines between what two groups are saying about the same thing.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:55.680
The final thing then we do is we use a triangulation, so either external data to see what they're saying is matching up with what they're saying in the world, or strategy data as well.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:01.599
So strategy decks and KPIs to make sure that what we're playing back is linked and talking the business language.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.039
What's produced is a live, living diagnostic and a scroll.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:15.359
We have this stunning domain breakdowns, we tell you the cultural health of your organization, we pinpoint the specific constraint that's holding you back and give you the 90-day sprint to fix it.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:22.559
We've built Nova, she is a cultural diagnostician that lives inside this as well, so she can guide you through every single interaction too.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:23.519
It's been pretty powerful.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:28.000
We've got live diagnostics signing up all the time at the moment, which is really, really cool.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.599
That adds to the research, but also just helps organizations find their formidable.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:40.880
I think that the thing that has surprised me the most about this process is how poorly articulated what the business believes or businesses believes to their people.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.559
And what you're selling in is not what's lived when you're in.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:51.279
And so this mismatch of expectation and in some ways integrity is actually detrimental to culture and cultural health.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:58.559
So the first thing that organizations just need to do is ground themselves in why they are here and then make sure that everyone in the business sees their role in that.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.880
If you can start at that point, a very strict strict campaign on that, you'll start to move.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.039
And then there's some nuance, there's some surgical action.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:16.000
Managers, and this is where Umthink just it lights up the room because leadership development, manager behavior, organizational change through those behaviors to leaders and managers, it comes alive in there.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:24.319
And that's why I'm so passionate about that work as well, because we see managers ill-equipped to actually deal with the nuance and the challenges that organizations face.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:29.920
Well, and it's so interesting because you just had said the managers are really the biggest piece of this.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:36.079
Like they are the ones that are executing on this culture assigned by the executive team.
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:36.559
Exactly.
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:37.920
Yeah, exactly.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:45.440
They play such a role to educating them and giving them investment and experiential learning is going to be the way that saves organizations for sure.
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:46.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:47.759
It's so, so interesting.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:54.480
So for those coming in that maybe they're not as open to the culture discussion, right?
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:58.559
It doesn't matter, not irrelevant, my people are happy, that sort of thing.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.480
What is the business results that they're missing out on?
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:09.359
Because I imagine that there is a lot of financial impact in having a culture that's not working for them.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:10.079
100%.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.000
We built an ROI calculator.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:14.880
So we can send this afterwards that shows you the cost of poor culture.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:15.920
Yeah, I'd like to see that.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:16.160
Yeah.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.680
It's putting on your and it's very, very real, very relevant, and it's conservative.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:21.119
There is a financial gap.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:27.680
And even if the research proves it, and the reason why we've built a domain is that way we've done is back through the research.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:34.799
And so we know organizations that have attained purpose to people's roles, outperform their peers by two times at least.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:42.000
We know organizations who have quote unquote healthy or culture have about six times EBITDA, five times revenue on share price.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:43.680
I mean, all of these things compound.
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:44.559
We know that happens.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:45.440
And this is two things.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:50.400
A, we need to equip people professionals better with ammo as they work, walk into a boardroom.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.559
And the CHI, the culture health index, will do that.
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.759
But also, for execs, they need to know that in order for growth to take place, right?
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:05.839
In order for performance of organizations to outperform their peers, you're going to have to understand why your culture is behaving the way it is.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:12.240
Because you spend millions on transformation that will never get realized if the way that teams work together is broken.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:12.880
And that's it.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:18.559
So before you spend a million in investment, spend a tiny fraction of that and diagnose what's actually happening.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:19.119
Mm-hmm.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.680
Mm-hmm.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.799
Yeah, it's just starting with the basics, right?
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:26.240
Know what's behaving, know where the problems are, fix the problems and then transform.
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:26.480
Yeah.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:27.599
Yeah.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:33.279
I think too often we're trying to say, you know, how to cut costs here, how to diminish uh diversify.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:34.559
Start with the basics.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:35.680
What are you after?
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:37.119
What is your culture all about?
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:37.680
I love it.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:42.400
So we're gonna do a quick little rapid fire so folks can get to know you.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:43.119
All right.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.240
So this has not been prepared, obviously.
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.680
So are you ready?
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:48.799
Yeah, fire up.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:49.279
That's good.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:50.720
Okay, let's do it.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:54.480
Best piece of career advice that you were ever given.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:55.920
I'm not allowed to swear on this, am I?
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:56.559
I won't swear.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:57.599
Yeah, go for it.
00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:58.400
We swear here.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.599
Don't be a dick.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:00.640
Okay.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:02.240
So straightforward, right?
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.920
So honestly, don't be a dick.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.200
Be great to work with.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:06.880
Like, be great to work.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:14.000
If you're great to work with and you're kind and you're a good human and you put the energy in, you will get the rewards in your workplace.
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:15.519
I love it.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:16.799
It's spot on, too.
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.240
One word that describes what bad culture feels like.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:20.880
Anxiety.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:21.519
Good one.
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:22.799
Joy or purpose.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:24.000
Which one do you chase?
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:24.640
Joy.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.119
Always.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.920
A book that changed the way that you think about your work.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.759
Culture Code by Dan Coyle.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.039
Finally, last one.
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.279
What was your first job and what'd you get paid?
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.640
My first job was I was worked at a leisure center.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:44.240
So in the UK, they're like where they big swimming pools and like tennis courts and stuff like that I was running kids' parties and working in the gym.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:46.240
I was on£5.20 an hour.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:46.799
Wow.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:49.359
Hopefully, hopefully a big change.
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:49.680
I know.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.599
Hopefully a big change for where you are now.
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:52.240
It's funny.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.279
Like, I love there is so much joy in working early.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.759
Like, work early because you learn so many things.
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:01.119
I then I worked at Nando's, I worked at nightclub uh throughout my career.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.480
I've worked at all over cool places.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.000
I worked at Hamley's Toy Store.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.920
All of these were minimal pay jobs.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.000
But without them, there's no way I would have learned the skills that I've got today.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.240
All of them were customer focused and facing.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.039
But work with people and around people as soon as you can.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.559
It gives you so many cool skills.
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:17.519
Yeah, I love that.
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:18.880
I love all my early jobs.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:19.599
They were the best.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:21.279
I go back to them, honestly.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:25.599
If I needed to, I would go back to like waitress saying or something like it.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.039
It's that shot in the arm that sometimes you need.
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:34.480
I've never laughed so hard in my life as I have in moments working like frontline sales.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:42.240
Like we used to at London Aquarium, we used to deal with people from all over the world and trying to sell people's photos of themselves back to them.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:47.359
At one point, I sold someone else's picture to someone else's family.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.079
I'm sure it broke all sorts of GDPR.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.079
The poor family had no idea what was going on.
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.720
I grabbed a photo, put it in their hand, and said, It's 20 pounds.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:55.680
Should we take that one home?
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:57.920
And they just said me 20 pounds.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.160
They walked out with someone else's photo.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:04.880
Like honestly, that was just one example of like a thousand examples.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:11.759
But like when we talk about chasing joy, it's the moments to be able to sit back and like laugh your face off in moments.
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:12.640
Exactly.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.039
Genuinely, like it's my issue is like seriousness and work is a big, big issue.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.519
Like, you know, when the pressure is always on, you just suck out those, you know, suck out the joys.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.799
You've got to inject it through humor and just moments, just like this is just so fun and different.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.079
So I know.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:29.359
No, I I'm with you.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:40.079
So the final question that I asked all of my guests before they sign off is nobody told me this, but once I found it out, it changed everything for me.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.680
Wow, nobody told me this.
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.839
But once I found it out, it changed everything for me.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:47.119
You will always catastrophize your failures more than anyone else.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:48.960
And you will fail a shit ton.
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.359
And that is beautiful and wonderful.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.119
But remember, oh my God, people get over it really quickly.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:58.720
And you know, and you can yourself just use it to make yourself better.
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.519
Don't catastrophize the moments that go against you.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.680
Use them as moments that just can make you so much more powerful.
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:10.799
So that's so powerful and a healthy reminder for everyone, including myself.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:11.599
So thank you.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.720
So, Nick, thank you so much for joining.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.559
Where can folks find you?
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.359
Check out getting a diagnostic, all that good stuff.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:20.319
Yeah, and all good.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.640
Hit me up on LinkedIn is the best place to start.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.319
Um, Nick Holmes dash HR.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:24.960
I'm on there.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.680
You can check me out at cultural.co.uk and weunthink.com.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.960
And we can change your life and your organization in so many different ways.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.599
I'm on TikTok at the Culture Doctor Nick Holmes as well.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:37.759
If you want to see some video content, then please do.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:39.440
But yeah, come out come along, say hi.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:40.240
So cool.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:41.519
Well, thank you again.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.839
We'll put everything in the show notes, Nick.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.960
It was such a pleasure.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.319
You are inspiring and teaching me something different too, and I'm sure everyone else listening.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:51.680
So thank you so much for your time.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:52.640
Thank you, Laura.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:53.839
Lovely, lovely to be here.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:54.720
It's great conversation.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:55.200
Take care.
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:55.920
Thanks, everyone.
