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I would like to welcome Amy Gallo.
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Amy is a workplace relationship expert, a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, and the author of Getting Along, which comes out in Italy today.
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Before we get into it, I'd love for you to tell people about your professional journey in your own words and for all of our Italian listeners out there as well.
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Tell me about your background and how you ended up doing what you're doing today.
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Yeah.
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So, first of all, ciao buongiorno to the Italian listeners.
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I'm really excited for the book to be out in Italian.
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I have to say, one of the things when you write a book, you don't think about translations.
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You're so consumed with getting the content right and getting it out in the world.
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And it's just such a delight to see the book show up around the world.
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And Italy is such a wonderful place.
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So I'm excited to see it there.
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So, where to talk about my career journey?
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I mean, I always say everything was sort of accidental, meaning I never set out and said, I'm going to be a book author, I'm going to be a workplace expert.
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I'm going to write articles for Harvard Business Review.
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All of it just sort of came mostly through my desire and curiosity, sort of my curiosity, I would say, about the world and the work world in particular, and my desire to share what I was observing and learning.
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And so I still to this day am not someone who sets a goal and says, I'm going to achieve that.
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I get really obsessed with ideas, with content, with research.
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And then I think, okay, how can I get this out in the world?
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And I would say that's one of the things I get asked a lot from young people, how do I get published in HBR, for example, or how do I become a speaker?
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And I always say, get obsessed with some content.
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Like start there.
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Figure out what it is you're passionate about, what you're willing to talk about day in, day out, what you're willing to immerse yourself in the research on, and then figure out how to then get published or become a speaker or whatever it is that you want, but really just focus on the content and then the connections.
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Of course, my career has been made up of lots of, you know, happy accidents because I had a wonderful boss in an early consulting job who really mentored me, introduced me to folks at HBR.
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I've had, you know, college friends who saw something I wrote and said, oh, you should come speak to our organization, right?
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Just making those connections with people, genuine connections with people that allow you to be invited eventually into the spaces and places you want to be invited into.
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But I think you hit on a really good point is that you need to find that passion, you need to find that thing that's truly yours.
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So for you, how did workplace become your thing?
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Yeah.
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So I've always been interested in human dynamics.
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So, you know, I've always been someone who sort of sits back and watches how people interact.
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I tend to be very direct.
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I wasn't always that way, but I tend to be very direct.
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So I also love when I watch people sort of have moments of conflict or moments of friction and they have to resolve them.
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And that's, you know, from movies to in-person interactions, I've always been that way.
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But with the content, and specifically as I deal with it now in terms of difficult conversations, difficult people, I would say it really started when I took this job in my 20s as in a consulting firm.
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And it was a strategy consulting firm based in New York City.
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It was a small boutique firm run by a wonderful person named John Katzenbach, who unfortunately passed away last year, but he wrote a wonderful book called The Wisdom of Teams, another book called Peak Performance, just a wonderful person.
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But most of my colleagues there were really focused on strategy, business model, operations.
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And I just liked to go to meetings and watch people interact.
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And I was always sort of like, I could guess, you know, sort of wager bets on whether people, like whether this business model or this strategy was gonna succeed based on how people interacted.
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Because you could tell, you know what, those people don't respect each other, or they're just totally miscommunicating.
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They think they're aligned in this strategy to move forward or this big culture change project they're about to embark on, but they're not seeing eye to eye.
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And so it was really those interpersonal dynamics that I started to observe.
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Now, John Katzenbach and another partner at that firm named Nico Canner were also really starting to do a lot of thinking and writing about something they called the informal organization.
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So you have your org chart, but then there's of course everything that happens outside the org chart, and that's really how work gets done.
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And I helped them with some of the writing and research about that, and that led me to start writing articles and to make the connection at HBR and to start pitching HBR articles about these topics, right?
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How do you deal with a micromanaging boss?
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What do you do when you have a colleague who's passive aggressive?
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What do you do when you have two bosses instead of just one?
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How do you negotiate between them?
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As I was sort of writing, one of the great benefits of writing for HBR is that I was able to interview researchers, the academics who are doing the primary research on these topics.
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And I was seeing firsthand sort of what was the research saying and trying to translate that into practical advice for everyone from people who are new to their career all the way up to senior leaders.
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Well, it is so incredibly helpful.
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I have it here actually.
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I was just scanning it today, this one here, but it comes out in Italian today, which is a huge deal.
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But what I found so inspiring, because my background, I work with early professionals and they go through all of these big moments of coming in and needing to adjust to these dynamics that no one in university has prepared them for.
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Yep.
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No, yeah.
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Well, it's just the biggest part of work, right?
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I know.
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You're preparing them for all of these things about how to critically think, about how to prepare for an interview, how to sound professional in email, but you don't actually tell people, by the way, you're not gonna get along with everyone.
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There are gonna be conflicts, you're gonna have difficult conversations.
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Here's how you think about that, or here's what you do when someone's rude to you, or when someone steals your idea in a meeting, right?
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We don't tell people how to do that.
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And I can't tell you, Laura, how many people have said to me about the book, especially people later in their careers, I wish I had this when I was 20.
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Right?
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My daughter is 19.
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I mean, we talked with her all the time about this.
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This is such a huge part of life, is figuring out how to communicate, how to navigate friction, how to get through tension, how to set boundaries, but also care for the other person and disagree in a compassionate, kind way.
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And we aren't taught those skills.
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And sometimes we're taught them, you know, in a management course later in your career.
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But when you really need them, when you're really sort of drowning in this newness of the workplace dynamics, we don't equip people.
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I'm curious actually what you hear from people who are starting out in their careers.
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Like what are their biggest surprises or concerns when they start noticing these dynamics are a big part of the workplace?
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Well, I think they come out of this, whether it's high school, university, whatever it is, feeling on top of the world.
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I oftentimes work with people who are really high achievers and motivated individuals.
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And because of that, they're used to being at the top of their performance and being seen in a really positive light.
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They enter into the workplace and they're not at the head of the class.
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They're not performing at their optimal ability.
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They're learning naturally so, right?
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And because of that, they have feedback that comes back to them and managers, others that they work with deliver it in a way that doesn't necessarily resonate with them.
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And it's opposite of what they've been used to.
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So it's really challenging, especially when you find very highly motivated early professionals.
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And the fact is that I talk a lot about bad bosses happen, right?
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Like we oftentimes teach managers so much of how to be a good manager and they should do all those things.
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But the fact is that they're all not, right?
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Just like there's bad parents, there's bad managers.
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And absolutely.
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You don't necessarily get to choose sometimes.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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And I think especially when you are used to producing individual work, which in the college setting, most, I mean, of course, they're group projects.
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Of course, you have to sort of, and everyone hates those group projects because no one carries their weight or you do too much, or that you know, someone doesn't show up to the meeting.
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But what you're not really told is the rest of your life is a group project.
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And that is and as irritating as those people can be who show up or you're assigned to be with, you know, usually in the workplace, you don't get to choose who your colleagues are.
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Part of your job is to get along with them so that you can do good work.
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And I can't tell you how many times I either coaching managers who have to give feedback to people or the people who've received the feedback that yes, you're producing high quality work, right?
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Yes, you're doing everything that's written in your job description, but you are either irritating people along the way, or you're not earning their trust, or you're not influencing them to do the things we need them to do.
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And that's holding you back.
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And so they expect the A because they did everything according to their job description perfectly, but the unwritten part of their job description is to have positive and productive relationships with the people around them.
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And they're not always equipped to do that.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I also don't think that managers always are equipped to coach in that way too.
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Because oftentimes it's uncomfortable coaching because it's related to the folks' behaviors that they have.
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That's right.
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I can't tell you how many managers tell me, I mean, we're all adults.
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They should know how to do this.
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And the problem is, yes, we're all adults, and many of us don't know how to do this.
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And sometimes it's the more senior people on a team who are causing the most problems interpersonally.
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I really feel like it is uncomfortable to coach someone through like how to be a kind person or how to interact with someone in a way that gets you what you want, or it right, like you said, it's sometimes it's about behaviors.
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It's like, well, when you interrupt someone five times in a meeting and they stop speaking, that's a loss for everyone, right?
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That kind of coaching is hard for people.
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They want to just coach on the things that are very practical and don't involve our ego or our identity, but it's ultimately it's our job as leaders, as managers to do that.
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Yeah.
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And the fact is that unless you're in a situation where you're able to learn in real time in that moment, you have to have someone that provides you that feedback after.
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I mean, there's so many mistakes that I made through my career of showing up to meetings in a certain way or over speaking in situations where it wasn't appropriate, whatever it would be.
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And I had done a really good job of really having good mentors.
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And if I didn't, seeking them out and allowing that space to have real honest feedback on how they're perceiving me and how I operate in the workplace.
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And I think that's essential because you can't take it for granted that everyone has the same reality and baseline and behavior that you do.
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Yeah.
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That's a core tenet of the book, is really that there's this concept called naive realism, which is in social psychology.
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So if I see something a certain way, so if I see someone's behavior as rude and someone else sees it as neutral or even maybe positive or friendly, I just assume they're wrong.
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Like I don't see, oh, you have another perspective.
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Like I just assume you're wrong.
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And that I think is one of the core issues that comes up when people talk to me about the difficult relationships they have, or, you know, sort of the challenging dynamics on a team is it's that you have a perspective.
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You don't even recognize it's your perspective because you just assume it's the truth.
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This is what is professional, this is what is appropriate, this is how people should behave.
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And when people don't align with that, then you immediately label them as difficult or as, you know, passive aggressive or overly political, but that's not necessarily true.
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Like there's usually very good reason for why they're behaving the way they are that has nothing to do with being out to get you.
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Now, I'm not saying, of course, they're colleagues who are vindictive or even veer into bully territory.
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That's not what the book covers.
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This is more sort of run-of-the-mill difficult behavior.
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And oftentimes it's just about a different perspective on what's professional or appropriate in that environment.
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I want you to go into a little on you discuss about how your brain isn't neutral during conflict.
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Tell me more on what that means for our listeners.
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Yeah.
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I mean, your brain really wants to protect you.
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And so it's funny to once you know your brain does what I'm about to explain, it's interesting to watch it do it for you, which is that we really focus on negativity.
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We have a negativity bias.
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It's a way our brain learns to protect ourselves.
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Let's say you and I start having a conversation, Laura, and I see you roll your eyes or you become dismissive, right?
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My brain immediately goes into what we all commonly know as fight or flight freeze, what's known in the science as amygdala hijack, where my brain sees that as a threat, right?
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Laura doesn't like me, await the project's at risk.
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And our brains aren't good at discerning like a minor threat or a minor sense of stress and something that's very dangerous.
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And so our brain just sort of flips into that protective mode and starts to react.
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For some people, that's right, flight, right?
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They might just shut down.
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For some people, that's fight.
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So you might get really aggressive.
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But what happens is you tell yourself a story, right?
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Laura never liked me, or Laura's always been so difficult, right?
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Sometimes the story is about yourself, right?
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Like, oh, I knew I wouldn't be able to succeed in this role, right?
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Whatever it is, and it tends to be negative, more often it's negative about the other person because we're protecting our own ego.
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And so the brain just quickly forms that story.
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And because of a social psychology phenomenon called premature cognitive commitment, once we tell ourselves that story, we decide it's true and we just start gathering evidence, right?
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So if my story is Laura has never liked me, now the story, everything you do, from the way you pick up your water to the next word you say, I'm like, see, I knew it.
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She didn't like me.
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Right.
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And so you we start gathering evidence in that confirmation bias.
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So our brain really, unfortunately, in an effort to protect us, tells this negative story and then just constantly tries to prove that it's true.
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And we really have to interrupt that moment or that storytelling that it's doing in order to step back and be able to handle the conflict or difficult conversation in a more productive way.
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I loved how you explained all of this in your book because for anyone that's dealing with workplace conflict, and it's all of us, right?
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In some countries, everyone.
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Yes.
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Right.
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I mean, is there anyone out there that doesn't?
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You probably work alone.
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But you're probably newer to yourself.
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I've exactly yeah.
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I mean, I think we just if you don't, if you don't have conflict, you're probably just not observing it, to be honest.
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Yeah.
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It was really helpful for me to reread because you talk about these archetypes of the different types of behaviors.
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And I'd love for you to share more on that.
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But what I will say, a personal story about me, is I don't think it's just an early professional thing.
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I can speak for myself, and I know you know that, but I had an amazing job a few years ago.
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I was very grateful for this job.
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I felt like I was stepping into really becoming the professional that I wanted to be.
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And there was a peer of mine, he was also at a VP level, and he was after me, after me, after me.
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And there was no space for me to do anything right.
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I mean, when I tell you, Amy, I would cry.
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I would never cry in the office.
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Well, I would privately, but I would cry.
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Yeah.
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And I just couldn't handle that conflict with him.
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And I had it consume me so much.
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I ended up leaving that role.
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And I would say the number one reason was because of that person.
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And looking back and after reading your book, shame on me for allowing that to get to the point where I fully have lost control of myself and allowed for that situation to dictate my happiness and my ability to work, right?
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But I imagine I'm not alone in that where, you know, you're faced with this conflict.
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And by the way, this person, I wrote it down here what they were.
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They were the insecure boss.
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Ah, yes, yes, yes.
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Very common.
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They were the insecure boss.
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And I'm mad at myself for going through that experience and allowing that person to ruin an opportunity for me.
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But I think if I would have had your book and your perspective more in my arsenal, I probably could have thought about it more of I think labeling him and seeing the psychology behind it because I was making it so much about me.
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That's exactly right.
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So that's sort of the point of the archetype.
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Well, that's one of the points of the archetypes.
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And I'll be honest, I still have hesitation about the archetypes because I think they can be misused.
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But what I did is I tried to look at the most common behaviors according to research, according to my own surveys and according to my interviews I did for the book.
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What were the most common types of behaviors or sort of types of people that people were encountering?
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And also what research is available to help with certain types of behavior.
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Bringing those two things together, I came up with these eight archetypes.
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It's not mutually exclusive.
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Your boss might have been the insecure manager and the political operator, or they might be in an archetype that's not even in the book, right?
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There are other archetypes as well.
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But the point of the archetypes is to give people a way to understand the behavior so that it's not taken personally, right?
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It's not like, what am I doing wrong?
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:01.920
But you see it as these are common behaviors that exist, that people and oftentimes it has almost nothing to do with you.
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:12.000
I mean, throughout each of the archetypes, especially the insecure boss, is just these themes of people are behaving out of fear, anxiety, and insecurity.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:26.880
And so what seems like someone who's out to get you is actually someone who's playing out their own insecurities in the workplace with you as the focus, or you as unfortunately the person experiencing the ramifications of that.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:33.119
And I'll tell you, in some ways, I think, oh gosh, I wish you had my book then, but I also recognize there's limits.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:41.599
Like you may have done everything I asked you to do in that chapter about the insecure manager, and it still may not have changed the way he treated you.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:51.599
In which case, my hope is the other parts of the book also help you set those emotional boundaries and, like you said, not let it ruin your ability to get work done.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:57.359
But I had an experience my husband was doing an amazing job he loved for 16 years.
00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:59.440
He had been very successful in this job.
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:16.400
He got a new boss, and this new boss also fit the insecure manager, probably also the tormentor, and sort of systematically eroded his confidence and his ability to do his job, so much so that two years into working for her, which was probably too late to be honest, he left.
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:24.000
And there is nothing that tests my expertise more than me not being able to coach my husband through a difficult situation.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.039
I mean, he's moved on to a much better position for him.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.799
He's doing great, but there are limits to this advice.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:41.920
And I think that's one of the things I want to keep in mind is that I do think ideally the advice in the book, the tactics help to improve the relationship, at a minimum, neutralize it.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:20:00.640
If you can't actually neutralize or improve the relationship, then at least you can find ways to, as you said, not take it personally, protect yourself, protect your career, think about ways to build boundaries both mentally and logistically, so that person doesn't impact you as negatively as they have been.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.160
Yeah, it's exactly that.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.640
And you do, you offer great coaching on how to influence their behavior.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.920
Maybe influence isn't the right word, but yeah, there's that.
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.759
But it goes back to you can't always control that person.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:21.359
You could do your best to influence their behavior, but you can control yourself, you can control the way you react and how it impacts your life.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:30.319
And when work is such a big part of your life, not having control within your own self within that, I think is a dangerous slippery slope.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.839
So it's really great guidance.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.319
Yeah.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.559
And that's also one of the things with the tactics.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:44.240
So each of the archetype chapters is divided into sort of what are the common behaviors of that archetype, whether it's the insecure boss, the passive aggressive peer, the political operator, the know-it-all.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.000
What are the common behaviors?
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:50.079
What are the costs of working with someone who exhibits those behaviors?
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.519
What's a rat what's the reasoning behind that behavior, right?
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.359
Why might they behave in that way?
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.359
And then tactics you can try.
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:02.319
I also include questions to ask yourself, like maybe you're influencing their behavior in a negative way.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:12.079
Maybe you're encouraging them to behave in ways, not that you take ownership for their bad behavior, but what are ways that you might be contributing to the dynamic?
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.359
And then you try out these tactics to see, you know, what works and what doesn't.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:26.720
And a lot of those tactics are, of course, about the dynamic and how to influence the dynamic or influence their behavior, but a lot of it's also about what you can control.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.920
What can you do?
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.839
And my hope with those tactics is that they give you a sense of agency.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:43.680
Cause I think the thing that's most detrimental about working with someone who is challenging you, eroding your confidence, making things, you know, just adding so much stress is that it feels out of control.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:50.000
And when you feel out of control, you're going to start experiencing physical signs of stress, burnout, right?
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:59.759
So a part of what I want to give people is the ability to return to some sense of ownership of their own career, their own work life, that sense of agency.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.480
That they have control over something.
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:15.519
They may not have control over how their boss treats them, but they have control over how they respond, whether they document that situation so that if things turn sideways, they have some evidence of what's been occurring, right?
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:20.240
You have the agency to take steps that can help you in the long run.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:27.599
Yeah, it's really helpful advice for anyone at any stage, new company coming into the career and really stepping into any role.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.079
I've been living in Italy for the last couple of years.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.240
So I live outside of Venice.
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.079
So it's a Veneto region.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:41.359
So in the north of Italy, and it's really interesting about Italy because we have so many different types of work cultures.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.440
So the South is very different than the north.
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.759
And even my area is very different than the Milano area itself.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:56.319
So I say this because in my area in particular, in the Veneto region, they're very known for family businesses.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.440
My partner is in a family business.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.880
Gosh, it's been now almost for the past like 60 years.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.240
It's been a family business.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:09.519
It's grown so much, they've actually just got acquired by a Dutch company as well.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.200
So, but in any case, the whole area, it's all family business.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:19.440
And being an American moving to Italy, this was a shock for me because it's not how we operate.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.720
And we often get advice don't work with your family.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:25.200
But that's that's that's their go-to.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:48.960
So, anyways, I'm so happy that your book is now available in Italian because out of all different parts of the world, I think that people that operate with their family, if they can have a handle on understanding these crazy dynamics, the psychology on both a family level, workplace level will help them so much.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:56.240
So I just wanted to share that that I think there's a whole group of people that will benefit from this conversation.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:56.720
Yeah.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.480
And I've done some work with organizations that support family businesses.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:10.720
And actually, I did a talk for an Italian organization about a year ago, this time last year, and they had a lot of family businesses that were part of their membership.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.039
And I think the dynamics are interesting.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.000
In some ways, you would think they would might have more conflict, right?
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:16.960
It's your family.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.240
We all can imagine the fights we have with our family.
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:27.759
But it's also a lot about conflict aversion because it's like, I don't want to give that person that feedback because it's my dad, right?
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:41.759
Or I don't want to speak up that I think this strategy isn't right because, you know, this was the strategy my grandfather put in place or my grandmother put in place, or like this is my sister who I'm having to negotiate this salary dispute with.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.920
And so I just think it's more intensified in a family dynamic.
00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:53.119
What I observe and what I hear is that the fights are a little more intense because they have a sort of extra stakes involved.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.160
And there's also a sort of more aversion to engaging in what might be difficult conversations because it's the same thing.
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.599
It's right, not the stakes are too high to really take the risk.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.680
And every time we engage in a difficult conversation, we're taking a small risk.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.759
And I think those risks just feel too large in some family businesses.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:12.160
Yeah.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:17.440
It's difficult to navigate your own family, your own relationships, and then add on that.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:24.400
But I think you're right, the aversion to conflict is, I believe, more problematic in at least what I've seen.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.240
But it's an interesting element.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.119
And I think that the way that you capture the different behaviors allows, again, for you to understand more.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.119
So you can help work it out yourself.
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:44.400
So, Amy, how I like to end each podcast is by going into a reflection of who you were early on.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:53.519
And I want to hear from you that what no one told you early on in your career, but once you figured it out, it unlocked everything for you.
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.000
No one told me that every conversation is a negotiation.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:04.319
And what I mean by that is we are constantly negotiating between my needs and your needs.
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:19.519
And I didn't understand that every conversation I was gonna have with a client, every conversation I was gonna have with a colleague, you know, every meeting we're having about revisions to the report or, you know, to the business plan was going to be a negotiation.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:26.160
And so I never actually got serious about having negotiation skills until my 30s.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.880
I remember actually was when I first started working with Harvard Business Review.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:36.400
I remember turning to one of my fellow editors and saying, Why do I feel like I'm negotiating all day long?
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.720
And she said, Because you are, and you always have been in any job.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:42.480
And I was like, Oh, right.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:55.839
And so then I just started really taking that a little more seriously of wait, this is about trying to navigate whose needs are we gonna prioritize in this moment, whose communication style, whose values?
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:03.119
And once I saw it that way, I found it much easier to handle what were previously challenging or tense conversations.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.960
Yeah, that's really good advice.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:06.559
Thank you so much, Amy.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:13.519
So your book comes out in Italy today, which is October 21st, which is so exciting.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:22.960
I'm looking forward to also being able to watch you shine at the Wobi event in Milan later next month.
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:27.119
And we have all the information in your link for your newsletter.
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:34.799
Also, highly advise taking the quiz so you can figure out what type of boss and colleague that you might be operating with.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.640
Anything else that followers can find you or connect with you, Amy?
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.200
Yeah, follow me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:42.960
I post a lot of my work there.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.720
Um, but yeah, no, you've covered it.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:47.920
It would be wonderful to see people in person in Milan if they're there.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.799
And I'd love to hear from Italian readers once they get the book, um, how it's resonating with them.
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:54.079
So thank you so much, Laura.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:55.759
I really appreciate you having me on.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.279
Thank you so much, Amy.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.160
We'll see you soon.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.200
Bye, ciao.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:00.160
Ciao.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.840
I would like to welcome Amy Gallo.
00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:12.000
Amy is a workplace relationship expert, a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, and the author of Getting Along, which comes out in Italy today.
00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:20.239
Before we get into it, I'd love for you to tell people about your professional journey in your own words and for all of our Italian listeners out there as well.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.760
Tell me about your background and how you ended up doing what you're doing today.
00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:24.320
Yeah.
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.839
So, first of all, ciao buongiorno to the Italian listeners.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.160
I'm really excited for the book to be out in Italian.
00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:33.679
I have to say, one of the things when you write a book, you don't think about translations.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.439
You're so consumed with getting the content right and getting it out in the world.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:41.119
And it's just such a delight to see the book show up around the world.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:43.039
And Italy is such a wonderful place.
00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:44.399
So I'm excited to see it there.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:46.640
So, where to talk about my career journey?
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:55.359
I mean, I always say everything was sort of accidental, meaning I never set out and said, I'm going to be a book author, I'm going to be a workplace expert.
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:57.840
I'm going to write articles for Harvard Business Review.
00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:10.400
All of it just sort of came mostly through my desire and curiosity, sort of my curiosity, I would say, about the world and the work world in particular, and my desire to share what I was observing and learning.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:15.599
And so I still to this day am not someone who sets a goal and says, I'm going to achieve that.
00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.760
I get really obsessed with ideas, with content, with research.
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And then I think, okay, how can I get this out in the world?
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And I would say that's one of the things I get asked a lot from young people, how do I get published in HBR, for example, or how do I become a speaker?
00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:33.439
And I always say, get obsessed with some content.
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:34.640
Like start there.
00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:52.239
Figure out what it is you're passionate about, what you're willing to talk about day in, day out, what you're willing to immerse yourself in the research on, and then figure out how to then get published or become a speaker or whatever it is that you want, but really just focus on the content and then the connections.
00:01:52.400 --> 00:02:06.319
Of course, my career has been made up of lots of, you know, happy accidents because I had a wonderful boss in an early consulting job who really mentored me, introduced me to folks at HBR.
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:13.360
I've had, you know, college friends who saw something I wrote and said, oh, you should come speak to our organization, right?
00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:23.680
Just making those connections with people, genuine connections with people that allow you to be invited eventually into the spaces and places you want to be invited into.
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:30.719
But I think you hit on a really good point is that you need to find that passion, you need to find that thing that's truly yours.
00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.199
So for you, how did workplace become your thing?
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:35.840
Yeah.
00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:39.039
So I've always been interested in human dynamics.
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.960
So, you know, I've always been someone who sort of sits back and watches how people interact.
00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:44.479
I tend to be very direct.
00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.120
I wasn't always that way, but I tend to be very direct.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:54.159
So I also love when I watch people sort of have moments of conflict or moments of friction and they have to resolve them.
00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:58.879
And that's, you know, from movies to in-person interactions, I've always been that way.
00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:10.800
But with the content, and specifically as I deal with it now in terms of difficult conversations, difficult people, I would say it really started when I took this job in my 20s as in a consulting firm.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:14.319
And it was a strategy consulting firm based in New York City.
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:26.240
It was a small boutique firm run by a wonderful person named John Katzenbach, who unfortunately passed away last year, but he wrote a wonderful book called The Wisdom of Teams, another book called Peak Performance, just a wonderful person.
00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:32.319
But most of my colleagues there were really focused on strategy, business model, operations.
00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.319
And I just liked to go to meetings and watch people interact.
00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:48.479
And I was always sort of like, I could guess, you know, sort of wager bets on whether people, like whether this business model or this strategy was gonna succeed based on how people interacted.
00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:55.439
Because you could tell, you know what, those people don't respect each other, or they're just totally miscommunicating.
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They think they're aligned in this strategy to move forward or this big culture change project they're about to embark on, but they're not seeing eye to eye.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.159
And so it was really those interpersonal dynamics that I started to observe.
00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:18.879
Now, John Katzenbach and another partner at that firm named Nico Canner were also really starting to do a lot of thinking and writing about something they called the informal organization.
00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:25.279
So you have your org chart, but then there's of course everything that happens outside the org chart, and that's really how work gets done.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:39.120
And I helped them with some of the writing and research about that, and that led me to start writing articles and to make the connection at HBR and to start pitching HBR articles about these topics, right?
00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:41.600
How do you deal with a micromanaging boss?
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.279
What do you do when you have a colleague who's passive aggressive?
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.240
What do you do when you have two bosses instead of just one?
00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:49.839
How do you negotiate between them?
00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:00.560
As I was sort of writing, one of the great benefits of writing for HBR is that I was able to interview researchers, the academics who are doing the primary research on these topics.
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:13.120
And I was seeing firsthand sort of what was the research saying and trying to translate that into practical advice for everyone from people who are new to their career all the way up to senior leaders.
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:14.879
Well, it is so incredibly helpful.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:16.160
I have it here actually.
00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:23.199
I was just scanning it today, this one here, but it comes out in Italian today, which is a huge deal.
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:39.199
But what I found so inspiring, because my background, I work with early professionals and they go through all of these big moments of coming in and needing to adjust to these dynamics that no one in university has prepared them for.
00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:40.079
Yep.
00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:40.959
No, yeah.
00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.279
Well, it's just the biggest part of work, right?
00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:43.839
I know.
00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:58.160
You're preparing them for all of these things about how to critically think, about how to prepare for an interview, how to sound professional in email, but you don't actually tell people, by the way, you're not gonna get along with everyone.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.959
There are gonna be conflicts, you're gonna have difficult conversations.
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:08.240
Here's how you think about that, or here's what you do when someone's rude to you, or when someone steals your idea in a meeting, right?
00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:10.240
We don't tell people how to do that.
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:18.639
And I can't tell you, Laura, how many people have said to me about the book, especially people later in their careers, I wish I had this when I was 20.
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:19.120
Right?
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:21.040
My daughter is 19.
00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:23.920
I mean, we talked with her all the time about this.
00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:36.639
This is such a huge part of life, is figuring out how to communicate, how to navigate friction, how to get through tension, how to set boundaries, but also care for the other person and disagree in a compassionate, kind way.
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:38.959
And we aren't taught those skills.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:44.160
And sometimes we're taught them, you know, in a management course later in your career.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:51.759
But when you really need them, when you're really sort of drowning in this newness of the workplace dynamics, we don't equip people.
00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:55.519
I'm curious actually what you hear from people who are starting out in their careers.
00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:02.000
Like what are their biggest surprises or concerns when they start noticing these dynamics are a big part of the workplace?
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:08.639
Well, I think they come out of this, whether it's high school, university, whatever it is, feeling on top of the world.
00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:14.560
I oftentimes work with people who are really high achievers and motivated individuals.
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:20.560
And because of that, they're used to being at the top of their performance and being seen in a really positive light.
00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:24.160
They enter into the workplace and they're not at the head of the class.
00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.879
They're not performing at their optimal ability.
00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:29.519
They're learning naturally so, right?
00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:40.800
And because of that, they have feedback that comes back to them and managers, others that they work with deliver it in a way that doesn't necessarily resonate with them.
00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.439
And it's opposite of what they've been used to.
00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:50.079
So it's really challenging, especially when you find very highly motivated early professionals.
00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:55.279
And the fact is that I talk a lot about bad bosses happen, right?
00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:01.519
Like we oftentimes teach managers so much of how to be a good manager and they should do all those things.
00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:03.439
But the fact is that they're all not, right?
00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.920
Just like there's bad parents, there's bad managers.
00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:06.959
And absolutely.
00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:09.360
You don't necessarily get to choose sometimes.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:09.920
Yes.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:10.399
Yeah.
00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:18.560
And I think especially when you are used to producing individual work, which in the college setting, most, I mean, of course, they're group projects.
00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:26.800
Of course, you have to sort of, and everyone hates those group projects because no one carries their weight or you do too much, or that you know, someone doesn't show up to the meeting.
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:32.000
But what you're not really told is the rest of your life is a group project.
00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:42.320
And that is and as irritating as those people can be who show up or you're assigned to be with, you know, usually in the workplace, you don't get to choose who your colleagues are.
00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:47.200
Part of your job is to get along with them so that you can do good work.
00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:58.080
And I can't tell you how many times I either coaching managers who have to give feedback to people or the people who've received the feedback that yes, you're producing high quality work, right?
00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:10.480
Yes, you're doing everything that's written in your job description, but you are either irritating people along the way, or you're not earning their trust, or you're not influencing them to do the things we need them to do.
00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.480
And that's holding you back.
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:26.320
And so they expect the A because they did everything according to their job description perfectly, but the unwritten part of their job description is to have positive and productive relationships with the people around them.
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.080
And they're not always equipped to do that.
00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:29.200
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:34.159
And I also don't think that managers always are equipped to coach in that way too.
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:40.240
Because oftentimes it's uncomfortable coaching because it's related to the folks' behaviors that they have.
00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:40.879
That's right.
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:44.320
I can't tell you how many managers tell me, I mean, we're all adults.
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:45.759
They should know how to do this.
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:49.759
And the problem is, yes, we're all adults, and many of us don't know how to do this.
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:55.600
And sometimes it's the more senior people on a team who are causing the most problems interpersonally.
00:09:55.759 --> 00:10:08.159
I really feel like it is uncomfortable to coach someone through like how to be a kind person or how to interact with someone in a way that gets you what you want, or it right, like you said, it's sometimes it's about behaviors.
00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:15.039
It's like, well, when you interrupt someone five times in a meeting and they stop speaking, that's a loss for everyone, right?
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:17.279
That kind of coaching is hard for people.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:27.440
They want to just coach on the things that are very practical and don't involve our ego or our identity, but it's ultimately it's our job as leaders, as managers to do that.
00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:27.840
Yeah.
00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:37.279
And the fact is that unless you're in a situation where you're able to learn in real time in that moment, you have to have someone that provides you that feedback after.
00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:46.639
I mean, there's so many mistakes that I made through my career of showing up to meetings in a certain way or over speaking in situations where it wasn't appropriate, whatever it would be.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.799
And I had done a really good job of really having good mentors.
00:10:50.960 --> 00:11:01.120
And if I didn't, seeking them out and allowing that space to have real honest feedback on how they're perceiving me and how I operate in the workplace.
00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:09.039
And I think that's essential because you can't take it for granted that everyone has the same reality and baseline and behavior that you do.
00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:09.519
Yeah.
00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:16.080
That's a core tenet of the book, is really that there's this concept called naive realism, which is in social psychology.
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:26.399
So if I see something a certain way, so if I see someone's behavior as rude and someone else sees it as neutral or even maybe positive or friendly, I just assume they're wrong.
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.799
Like I don't see, oh, you have another perspective.
00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.559
Like I just assume you're wrong.
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:42.960
And that I think is one of the core issues that comes up when people talk to me about the difficult relationships they have, or, you know, sort of the challenging dynamics on a team is it's that you have a perspective.
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.799
You don't even recognize it's your perspective because you just assume it's the truth.
00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:51.039
This is what is professional, this is what is appropriate, this is how people should behave.
00:11:51.120 --> 00:12:02.639
And when people don't align with that, then you immediately label them as difficult or as, you know, passive aggressive or overly political, but that's not necessarily true.
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:10.720
Like there's usually very good reason for why they're behaving the way they are that has nothing to do with being out to get you.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:17.759
Now, I'm not saying, of course, they're colleagues who are vindictive or even veer into bully territory.
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:19.279
That's not what the book covers.
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.279
This is more sort of run-of-the-mill difficult behavior.
00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:29.200
And oftentimes it's just about a different perspective on what's professional or appropriate in that environment.
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:34.879
I want you to go into a little on you discuss about how your brain isn't neutral during conflict.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.120
Tell me more on what that means for our listeners.
00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:37.600
Yeah.
00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:40.000
I mean, your brain really wants to protect you.
00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:49.600
And so it's funny to once you know your brain does what I'm about to explain, it's interesting to watch it do it for you, which is that we really focus on negativity.
00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:50.960
We have a negativity bias.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.879
It's a way our brain learns to protect ourselves.
00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:59.039
Let's say you and I start having a conversation, Laura, and I see you roll your eyes or you become dismissive, right?
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:09.120
My brain immediately goes into what we all commonly know as fight or flight freeze, what's known in the science as amygdala hijack, where my brain sees that as a threat, right?
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:12.320
Laura doesn't like me, await the project's at risk.
00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:20.639
And our brains aren't good at discerning like a minor threat or a minor sense of stress and something that's very dangerous.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:26.320
And so our brain just sort of flips into that protective mode and starts to react.
00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:28.559
For some people, that's right, flight, right?
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:29.759
They might just shut down.
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:31.600
For some people, that's fight.
00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:33.120
So you might get really aggressive.
00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.840
But what happens is you tell yourself a story, right?
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:39.759
Laura never liked me, or Laura's always been so difficult, right?
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.679
Sometimes the story is about yourself, right?
00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.039
Like, oh, I knew I wouldn't be able to succeed in this role, right?
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:54.080
Whatever it is, and it tends to be negative, more often it's negative about the other person because we're protecting our own ego.
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.600
And so the brain just quickly forms that story.
00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:08.879
And because of a social psychology phenomenon called premature cognitive commitment, once we tell ourselves that story, we decide it's true and we just start gathering evidence, right?
00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:18.879
So if my story is Laura has never liked me, now the story, everything you do, from the way you pick up your water to the next word you say, I'm like, see, I knew it.
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:19.759
She didn't like me.
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:20.159
Right.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.360
And so you we start gathering evidence in that confirmation bias.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:31.679
So our brain really, unfortunately, in an effort to protect us, tells this negative story and then just constantly tries to prove that it's true.
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:42.480
And we really have to interrupt that moment or that storytelling that it's doing in order to step back and be able to handle the conflict or difficult conversation in a more productive way.
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:51.519
I loved how you explained all of this in your book because for anyone that's dealing with workplace conflict, and it's all of us, right?
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:52.799
In some countries, everyone.
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:53.200
Yes.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:53.600
Right.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:55.840
I mean, is there anyone out there that doesn't?
00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:56.799
You probably work alone.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:58.720
But you're probably newer to yourself.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:01.919
I've exactly yeah.
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:07.200
I mean, I think we just if you don't, if you don't have conflict, you're probably just not observing it, to be honest.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:07.759
Yeah.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.559
It was really helpful for me to reread because you talk about these archetypes of the different types of behaviors.
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.799
And I'd love for you to share more on that.
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:22.720
But what I will say, a personal story about me, is I don't think it's just an early professional thing.
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:28.080
I can speak for myself, and I know you know that, but I had an amazing job a few years ago.
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.919
I was very grateful for this job.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:35.360
I felt like I was stepping into really becoming the professional that I wanted to be.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:44.159
And there was a peer of mine, he was also at a VP level, and he was after me, after me, after me.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.440
And there was no space for me to do anything right.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.080
I mean, when I tell you, Amy, I would cry.
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.159
I would never cry in the office.
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.039
Well, I would privately, but I would cry.
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:55.440
Yeah.
00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.639
And I just couldn't handle that conflict with him.
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.320
And I had it consume me so much.
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.559
I ended up leaving that role.
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.320
And I would say the number one reason was because of that person.
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:24.720
And looking back and after reading your book, shame on me for allowing that to get to the point where I fully have lost control of myself and allowed for that situation to dictate my happiness and my ability to work, right?
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:30.240
But I imagine I'm not alone in that where, you know, you're faced with this conflict.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.279
And by the way, this person, I wrote it down here what they were.
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:34.799
They were the insecure boss.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:36.080
Ah, yes, yes, yes.
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:36.879
Very common.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.039
They were the insecure boss.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:46.960
And I'm mad at myself for going through that experience and allowing that person to ruin an opportunity for me.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:17:01.120
But I think if I would have had your book and your perspective more in my arsenal, I probably could have thought about it more of I think labeling him and seeing the psychology behind it because I was making it so much about me.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:02.320
That's exactly right.
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.400
So that's sort of the point of the archetype.
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.400
Well, that's one of the points of the archetypes.
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.880
And I'll be honest, I still have hesitation about the archetypes because I think they can be misused.
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:19.920
But what I did is I tried to look at the most common behaviors according to research, according to my own surveys and according to my interviews I did for the book.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:25.440
What were the most common types of behaviors or sort of types of people that people were encountering?
00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:30.079
And also what research is available to help with certain types of behavior.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.960
Bringing those two things together, I came up with these eight archetypes.
00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:34.400
It's not mutually exclusive.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:41.839
Your boss might have been the insecure manager and the political operator, or they might be in an archetype that's not even in the book, right?
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:43.359
There are other archetypes as well.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:50.559
But the point of the archetypes is to give people a way to understand the behavior so that it's not taken personally, right?
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.960
It's not like, what am I doing wrong?
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:01.920
But you see it as these are common behaviors that exist, that people and oftentimes it has almost nothing to do with you.
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:12.000
I mean, throughout each of the archetypes, especially the insecure boss, is just these themes of people are behaving out of fear, anxiety, and insecurity.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:26.880
And so what seems like someone who's out to get you is actually someone who's playing out their own insecurities in the workplace with you as the focus, or you as unfortunately the person experiencing the ramifications of that.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:33.119
And I'll tell you, in some ways, I think, oh gosh, I wish you had my book then, but I also recognize there's limits.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:41.599
Like you may have done everything I asked you to do in that chapter about the insecure manager, and it still may not have changed the way he treated you.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:51.599
In which case, my hope is the other parts of the book also help you set those emotional boundaries and, like you said, not let it ruin your ability to get work done.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:57.359
But I had an experience my husband was doing an amazing job he loved for 16 years.
00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:59.440
He had been very successful in this job.
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:16.400
He got a new boss, and this new boss also fit the insecure manager, probably also the tormentor, and sort of systematically eroded his confidence and his ability to do his job, so much so that two years into working for her, which was probably too late to be honest, he left.
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:24.000
And there is nothing that tests my expertise more than me not being able to coach my husband through a difficult situation.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.039
I mean, he's moved on to a much better position for him.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.799
He's doing great, but there are limits to this advice.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:41.920
And I think that's one of the things I want to keep in mind is that I do think ideally the advice in the book, the tactics help to improve the relationship, at a minimum, neutralize it.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:20:00.640
If you can't actually neutralize or improve the relationship, then at least you can find ways to, as you said, not take it personally, protect yourself, protect your career, think about ways to build boundaries both mentally and logistically, so that person doesn't impact you as negatively as they have been.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.160
Yeah, it's exactly that.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.640
And you do, you offer great coaching on how to influence their behavior.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.920
Maybe influence isn't the right word, but yeah, there's that.
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.759
But it goes back to you can't always control that person.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:21.359
You could do your best to influence their behavior, but you can control yourself, you can control the way you react and how it impacts your life.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:30.319
And when work is such a big part of your life, not having control within your own self within that, I think is a dangerous slippery slope.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.839
So it's really great guidance.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.319
Yeah.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.559
And that's also one of the things with the tactics.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:44.240
So each of the archetype chapters is divided into sort of what are the common behaviors of that archetype, whether it's the insecure boss, the passive aggressive peer, the political operator, the know-it-all.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.000
What are the common behaviors?
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:50.079
What are the costs of working with someone who exhibits those behaviors?
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.519
What's a rat what's the reasoning behind that behavior, right?
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.359
Why might they behave in that way?
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.359
And then tactics you can try.
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:02.319
I also include questions to ask yourself, like maybe you're influencing their behavior in a negative way.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:12.079
Maybe you're encouraging them to behave in ways, not that you take ownership for their bad behavior, but what are ways that you might be contributing to the dynamic?
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.359
And then you try out these tactics to see, you know, what works and what doesn't.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:26.720
And a lot of those tactics are, of course, about the dynamic and how to influence the dynamic or influence their behavior, but a lot of it's also about what you can control.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.920
What can you do?
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.839
And my hope with those tactics is that they give you a sense of agency.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:43.680
Cause I think the thing that's most detrimental about working with someone who is challenging you, eroding your confidence, making things, you know, just adding so much stress is that it feels out of control.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:50.000
And when you feel out of control, you're going to start experiencing physical signs of stress, burnout, right?
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:59.759
So a part of what I want to give people is the ability to return to some sense of ownership of their own career, their own work life, that sense of agency.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.480
That they have control over something.
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:15.519
They may not have control over how their boss treats them, but they have control over how they respond, whether they document that situation so that if things turn sideways, they have some evidence of what's been occurring, right?
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:20.240
You have the agency to take steps that can help you in the long run.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:27.599
Yeah, it's really helpful advice for anyone at any stage, new company coming into the career and really stepping into any role.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.079
I've been living in Italy for the last couple of years.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.240
So I live outside of Venice.
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.079
So it's a Veneto region.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:41.359
So in the north of Italy, and it's really interesting about Italy because we have so many different types of work cultures.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.440
So the South is very different than the north.
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.759
And even my area is very different than the Milano area itself.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:56.319
So I say this because in my area in particular, in the Veneto region, they're very known for family businesses.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.440
My partner is in a family business.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.880
Gosh, it's been now almost for the past like 60 years.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.240
It's been a family business.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:09.519
It's grown so much, they've actually just got acquired by a Dutch company as well.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.200
So, but in any case, the whole area, it's all family business.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:19.440
And being an American moving to Italy, this was a shock for me because it's not how we operate.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.720
And we often get advice don't work with your family.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:25.200
But that's that's that's their go-to.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:48.960
So, anyways, I'm so happy that your book is now available in Italian because out of all different parts of the world, I think that people that operate with their family, if they can have a handle on understanding these crazy dynamics, the psychology on both a family level, workplace level will help them so much.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:56.240
So I just wanted to share that that I think there's a whole group of people that will benefit from this conversation.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:56.720
Yeah.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.480
And I've done some work with organizations that support family businesses.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:10.720
And actually, I did a talk for an Italian organization about a year ago, this time last year, and they had a lot of family businesses that were part of their membership.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.039
And I think the dynamics are interesting.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.000
In some ways, you would think they would might have more conflict, right?
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:16.960
It's your family.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.240
We all can imagine the fights we have with our family.
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:27.759
But it's also a lot about conflict aversion because it's like, I don't want to give that person that feedback because it's my dad, right?
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:41.759
Or I don't want to speak up that I think this strategy isn't right because, you know, this was the strategy my grandfather put in place or my grandmother put in place, or like this is my sister who I'm having to negotiate this salary dispute with.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.920
And so I just think it's more intensified in a family dynamic.
00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:53.119
What I observe and what I hear is that the fights are a little more intense because they have a sort of extra stakes involved.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.160
And there's also a sort of more aversion to engaging in what might be difficult conversations because it's the same thing.
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.599
It's right, not the stakes are too high to really take the risk.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.680
And every time we engage in a difficult conversation, we're taking a small risk.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.759
And I think those risks just feel too large in some family businesses.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:12.160
Yeah.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:17.440
It's difficult to navigate your own family, your own relationships, and then add on that.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:24.400
But I think you're right, the aversion to conflict is, I believe, more problematic in at least what I've seen.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.240
But it's an interesting element.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.119
And I think that the way that you capture the different behaviors allows, again, for you to understand more.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.119
So you can help work it out yourself.
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:44.400
So, Amy, how I like to end each podcast is by going into a reflection of who you were early on.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:53.519
And I want to hear from you that what no one told you early on in your career, but once you figured it out, it unlocked everything for you.
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.000
No one told me that every conversation is a negotiation.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:04.319
And what I mean by that is we are constantly negotiating between my needs and your needs.
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:19.519
And I didn't understand that every conversation I was gonna have with a client, every conversation I was gonna have with a colleague, you know, every meeting we're having about revisions to the report or, you know, to the business plan was going to be a negotiation.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:26.160
And so I never actually got serious about having negotiation skills until my 30s.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.880
I remember actually was when I first started working with Harvard Business Review.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:36.400
I remember turning to one of my fellow editors and saying, Why do I feel like I'm negotiating all day long?
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.720
And she said, Because you are, and you always have been in any job.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:42.480
And I was like, Oh, right.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:55.839
And so then I just started really taking that a little more seriously of wait, this is about trying to navigate whose needs are we gonna prioritize in this moment, whose communication style, whose values?
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:03.119
And once I saw it that way, I found it much easier to handle what were previously challenging or tense conversations.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.960
Yeah, that's really good advice.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:06.559
Thank you so much, Amy.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:13.519
So your book comes out in Italy today, which is October 21st, which is so exciting.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:22.960
I'm looking forward to also being able to watch you shine at the Wobi event in Milan later next month.
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:27.119
And we have all the information in your link for your newsletter.
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:34.799
Also, highly advise taking the quiz so you can figure out what type of boss and colleague that you might be operating with.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.640
Anything else that followers can find you or connect with you, Amy?
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.200
Yeah, follow me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:42.960
I post a lot of my work there.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.720
Um, but yeah, no, you've covered it.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:47.920
It would be wonderful to see people in person in Milan if they're there.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.799
And I'd love to hear from Italian readers once they get the book, um, how it's resonating with them.
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:54.079
So thank you so much, Laura.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:55.759
I really appreciate you having me on.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.279
Thank you so much, Amy.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.160
We'll see you soon.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.200
Bye, ciao.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:00.160
Ciao.
