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Welcome to the commons on the
Forward Ed Network.
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This is Modern Grading Reform,
a miniseries with Dr. Chad Lang and
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Dr. Matt Townsley sharing
nearly 20 years in the trenches of
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grading and assessment reform.
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Let's get started.
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Hey.
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Well, welcome everybody to a
modern grading reform miniseries
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put on by myself, Chad Lang,
and my good friend and co author,
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Matt Townsley.
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Matt, what is going on?
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Hey, good to see you again.
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I know we're a little bit into
2026, but great to see you again
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this year, Chad.
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You know what, it's been a
number of years since we've first
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met and so it's really neat to
get together back again.
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And we're emailing and texting
all the time and writing books and
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articles, but great kid with
you and doing this little podcast
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series.
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So hey, happy 2026 and beyond
to you.
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It's really just everybody
getting the opportunity just to listen
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in on our conversations about
when we get super excited about grading
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and assessment.
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So I think hopefully that's
really helpful and fun for people
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with some years to pass after
we're able to get this online.
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Our friends over at Forward Ed
are putting together this podcast
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miniseries for you and for
school leaders, educators and everyone
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else alike to hopefully take
take in some thoughts and ideas about
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grading, an assessment reform
that Matt and I have experienced
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and almost 20 years in the
trenches of doing grading reform.
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It's crazy to think that it's
been that much time already.
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We're going to lay out this
podcast in four episodes.
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We're going to try to focus on
a little bit about our journey and
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of course, talk about what we
think the state of grading and assessment
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reform are in 2026.
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Now that we're into this new
year and move into talking about
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things that we've seen over
the years that are really working
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with grading reform,
assessments, protocols, even report
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cards and assessment tools.
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In the second episode, third
episode, jumping into communication,
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what works and how do we make
sure this reform is on the Same page
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for everybody.
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And then trying to finish up
that last episode with talking about
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sustainability.
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So what works and what, what's
hanging in there for schools that
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are doing such a great job in
this, this journey that schools can
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go on and this evolution as a
part of their school improvement
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process.
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So we're excited about it.
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There'll be so much we can
throw in on the way.
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I hope that everyone finds it
super helpful and we look forward
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to interacting with anybody
through email and LinkedIn and those
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kinds of things.
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So awesome stuff.
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Matt and I were talking before
we jumped online.
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I think we crossed paths doing
this work or at least being fans
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of the work in school
leadership roles.
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Matt here in Iowa and then I
was in Missouri actually at the time
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as a high school government teacher.
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Way back in 2007, I jumped on
a pilot team in Excelsior Springs,
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Missouri.
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It was awesome and a great
experience there.
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So I'm going on to 19 years
specifically I think being involved
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in standards based standards
reference grading reform in PK12
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systems.
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What about you, Matt?
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I got your years up right?
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Yeah, pretty close.
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I think it's either 2007, 2008
for me when I first started trying
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out some different things in
my high school math classroom.
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And that was really a result
of just going to a state of Iowa
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math teachers conference.
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In fact, I was just talking to
a principal over this week and we're
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just trying to figure out when
do we first meet each other there.
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And we're pretty short way all
the way back to that, that math teachers
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conference.
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And you know, but even before
that I was like you, Chad, just interested
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the topic I'd be talking to
my, you know, high school math teacher
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colleagues saying how many
points you take off for this?
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How many points do you work
for this?
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And just always been something
that I've been interested in as an
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educator.
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And then of course
transitioning to a district office
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role also when Solon, it
became something that we had to address
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when our high school
principal, Nathan called me up one
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day in the district office
like, yeah, we, you got some teachers
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do it this way, some teachers
do it that way.
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Nobody's doing it wrong as in
relation to how we expect them to
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do it.
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But it's just very
inconsistent right now.
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And that put us on a journey
to really, you know, for me to experience
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this shift as an administrator.
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I know, Chad, you've been a
part of the shift as an administrator,
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as a teacher.
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Well, as well.
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I think that's what makes it
fun to talk about this.
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Our Stories aren't exactly the same.
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We have just a lot of years in
seeing it, talking about it, thinking
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about it, even, you know,
exchanging emails and doing workshops
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and things like that for other
schools, too, which has been really
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fun to broaden our horizons in
that regard.
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Yeah.
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What do you think, kind of
like now in 2026 is maybe, you know,
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like, what's different or
what's the same?
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What do you think?
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Wow.
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I think a lot of pieces of
their grading reform are the exact
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same.
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And it's really just whether
or not a district or a community
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or a school or the group of
educators are already in prime for
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it, and maybe what pressure
has been put on their system that
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says, you know, this is.
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This isn't working at all.
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I know you and I believe that
grades are a form of communication,
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just as a communication
device, as our friend Rick Warmerly
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says.
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They're not tattoos
permanently put on your forehead.
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There's just a temporary
indicator of what you could know
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or do at any given time.
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And that's not to take away
from the great work that people have
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done over their career.
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It ends up on their transcript.
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But I think it's amazing of,
you know, so many different schools
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can be in a different journey,
maybe moving away from, you know,
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this ranking and sorting
element that history has kind of
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set us up for in an industrial
and agricultural economy in the United
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States, really, for most of
our educational history.
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And now their roles change.
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You know, we.
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We don't need to use PK12
settings to rank and sort students,
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really.
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There's a lot of other
institutions and avenues to do that,
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and I think that's different.
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And.
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And I know you have some good
thoughts about that, people's understanding
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of that.
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And.
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And I'm really challenged by
the idea that, you know, even, like,
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when my parents were growing
up in the 60s and 70s, like, truly,
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if they didn't get all of
that, what the curriculum they were
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exposed to and their grades
really didn't reflect even that,
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they got a lot of what they
were exposed to, they actually could
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still go on and be great
contributors to society.
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You know, get a good job, make
a good earnings, you know, buy a
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house, two cars, all that kind
of stuff.
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I just wonder if that's the
case anymore, you know, if you don't
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have some level of proficiency
of state standards or, you know,
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industry standards, you know,
just what opportunity will you have
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to be successful, you know,
and viable economically for yourself?
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And so I think the stakes are
really high, and I think schools
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are seeing that I Think
families are seeing that as well.
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And they want to really make
sure that they have a good understanding
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of what their, what their
child's competencies are.
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And I think the thing that's
interesting that I've observed over
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20 years is those standards
and those competencies are a lot
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more rigorous than what people
give them credit for.
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It doesn't take long to go all
the way down to probably an elementary,
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like open house or even conferences.
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And I've heard, know, parent
teacher conferences.
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I've heard parents say, like,
I can't help them anymore.
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I don't even know how to do
this stuff.
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And so I think we have to
think that at the same time, you
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know, over time, the rigor of
the standards, contrary to probably
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what a lot of people believe,
maybe in the media or something like
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that, have really risen.
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And then our ability to report
the accuracy of what the students
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can do with those is super important.
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Like, they're truly, I
wouldn't say it's life or death,
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but I think they're economic
life viability really depends on
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doing the best job we can at
teaching them, assessing them and
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reporting them.
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So, you know, those things are
on my mind.
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What about you?
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Like what, what resonates with
you about that?
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I think there's a lot of
things that are the same, no doubt.
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I mean, I think there's
schools that are focusing on it,
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you know, whether it's from a
classroom consistency perspective.
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You know, I see a lot of that,
like, hey, why does this class do
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it that way?
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Why does this kid X credit
over here?
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And so I think there's still,
you know, conversations around classroom
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consistency.
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And of course we see that, you
know, in the research in the past,
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you know, 20 years or so, as I
think there's also the clarity conversation
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that you alluded to as well.
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That's one I'm probably the
biggest fan of this idea of moving
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away from points and
percentages as this counterfeit pursuit
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of precision.
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It's just something that gets
me really excited.
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I think it's very defensible
to dig into clarity and communication
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as being a reason that grading
assessment practices can change.
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And of course, Joe Feldman's
book and just political things out
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there have really also brought
up the equity side of things.
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And so I think schools
probably today in 2026, leaning into
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those ideas as the reason for change.
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But there's probably more, you
know, resources out there and in
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a stronger rationale they can
point to.
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I think many of those things
were true back, you know, 20 years
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ago.
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Chad Maybe not as much the equity.
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You know, I don't know if that
was necessarily a conversation about
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grading reform, but I think
that those three, you know, there's
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three reasons.
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Consistency, clarity, and
equity are ones that schools are
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talking about today.
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I also see today, in 2026,
schools that were maybe trying it
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earlier, whether it was, you
know, around Covid or even before
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doing, like, you know, grading
reform reboots or trying to get back
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at it.
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Right.
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Hey, we tried this out five
years ago.
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We just kind of lost track of it.
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And so now we're really trying
to, you know, go back and get after
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it.
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And I think that's good.
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I think that's really good,
obviously, since you and I are excited
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00:09:47,980 -->
00:09:50,260
about it, because no one's
making them do that, Chad.
229
00:09:50,260 -->
00:09:50,580
Right.
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00:09:50,740 -->
00:09:53,980
It's not like, you know, like
here in the state of Iowa, where
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00:09:53,980 -->
00:09:56,820
you have to adopt a certain
cell phone policy because the state
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00:09:56,820 -->
00:09:57,700
says you have to.
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00:09:57,860 -->
00:09:58,260
Right.
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00:09:58,740 -->
00:10:01,700
Or you have to adopt some new
state standards because the state
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00:10:01,700 -->
00:10:04,500
says you have to write like it's.
236
00:10:04,500 -->
00:10:08,340
Schools voluntarily are
saying, we need to get better grading
237
00:10:08,340 -->
00:10:08,700
practices.
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00:10:08,700 -->
00:10:11,540
I think that's pretty, you
know, pretty neat to see.
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00:10:12,450
Yeah.
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00:10:12,450 -->
00:10:15,570
And to jump on that, like,
that's courageous to do.
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00:10:15,570 -->
00:10:16,930
I mean, yeah, there.
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00:10:16,930 -->
00:10:21,650
There's hardly anything that's
universally 100% accepted.
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00:10:21,650 -->
00:10:25,130
Like, even school safety can
be controversial for people to think,
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00:10:25,210 -->
00:10:27,610
you know, we're gonna maybe
think about our.
245
00:10:27,690 -->
00:10:30,890
Our school entry policies and
systems a little bit differently.
246
00:10:30,890 -->
00:10:32,810
And, you know, we want our
schools to be more safe.
247
00:10:32,810 -->
00:10:33,530
And, like, we'll.
248
00:10:33,530 -->
00:10:35,530
We'll hear people push back
and say, well, we don't want to be
249
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00:10:35,970
a prison.
250
00:10:35,970 -->
00:10:38,730
Like, it's supposed to be a
great place, you know, there's just
251
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00:10:39,770
hardly anything.
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00:10:39,770 -->
00:10:41,930
And so if you think about
grading, which potentially could
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00:10:45,730
be one of the most hot topic
issues, and I can argue whether it
254
00:10:45,730 -->
00:10:48,250
should be, but certainly I
understand why it might be.
255
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00:10:51,210
And schools are still taking
that on in 2026.
256
00:10:51,210 -->
00:10:55,170
I think that really tells you
something about how broken some systems
257
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00:10:55,930
have really become.
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00:10:59,930
And for a variety of reasons,
you already shared.
259
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00:11:02,290
But I wonder, too.
260
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00:11:05,020
You know, you think about
change and evolution, you know, Know,
261
00:11:05,020 -->
00:11:08,700
I can probably speak for you,
but I know for me, like, I didn't
262
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00:11:11,140
actually know what my grades
were as an elementary student.
263
00:11:11,140 -->
00:11:12,940
Like, my teacher had this big
red book, right?
264
00:11:12,940 -->
00:11:13,940
Like, he opened this book.
265
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00:11:14,460
There's these.
266
00:11:14,460 -->
00:11:14,940
Your kids.
267
00:11:14,940 -->
00:11:17,140
Their names are down the side,
and then the ti.
268
00:11:17,140 -->
00:11:20,619
The titles of entries are on
the top, usually chronologically
269
00:11:20,619 -->
00:11:21,860
by date and so on and so forth.
270
00:11:21,860 -->
00:11:24,580
And there were all These
things in pen or pencil or I can't
271
00:11:24,580 -->
00:11:25,300
really remember.
272
00:11:25,460 -->
00:11:29,820
But see, it really wasn't
aggregated into any reporting measure
273
00:11:29,820 -->
00:11:32,340
until maybe a quarter or a semester.
274
00:11:32,610 -->
00:11:34,690
And even then it was such a
lagging measure.
275
00:11:34,690 -->
00:11:38,250
It really didn't make a
difference to me, particularly as
276
00:11:38,250 -->
00:11:40,970
an elementary student, and I
think maybe even into middle school
277
00:11:40,970 -->
00:11:43,970
and probably even high school
for me, maybe dating myself a little
278
00:11:43,970 -->
00:11:44,290
bit.
279
00:11:44,290 -->
00:11:46,930
But I think about technology
being a little bit of a hindrance
280
00:11:47,250 -->
00:11:48,770
actually to grading reform.
281
00:11:48,770 -->
00:11:53,170
And you and I talk about the
perils of scoreboard watching with
282
00:11:53,170 -->
00:11:56,930
all the electronic grading
systems and student information systems
283
00:11:56,930 -->
00:12:00,500
that can do any number of
calculations with grades, giving
284
00:12:00,500 -->
00:12:02,940
this sort of illusion of
precision sometimes and how that's
285
00:12:02,940 -->
00:12:06,060
actually been detrimental
maybe, and you and I can talk about
286
00:12:06,060 -->
00:12:06,820
that more later.
287
00:12:06,820 -->
00:12:10,460
But you know that technology
and then other influences of technology
288
00:12:10,620 -->
00:12:13,780
to grading have made it
challenging for teachers around clarity
289
00:12:13,780 -->
00:12:14,500
and consistency.
290
00:12:14,500 -->
00:12:17,500
You think about AI as being a
perfect example, like, who's really
291
00:12:17,500 -->
00:12:18,220
doing this work.
292
00:12:18,220 -->
00:12:21,500
Well, that's not really a new
problem for teachers who assigned
293
00:12:21,500 -->
00:12:24,100
a bunch of homework and put it
in their grade book for four points
294
00:12:24,100 -->
00:12:26,560
because we didn't know if
their brother was doing it, the kid
295
00:12:26,560 -->
00:12:30,840
on the basketball bus, their
parents, and all leading to, you
296
00:12:30,840 -->
00:12:33,840
know, sort of invalid entries
of what the student could actually
297
00:12:33,840 -->
00:12:34,080
do.
298
00:12:34,080 -->
00:12:35,440
You know, we didn't, we didn't
know that.
299
00:12:35,440 -->
00:12:38,440
So now we have apps on our
phones and all those kinds of things
300
00:12:38,440 -->
00:12:40,080
that can do it lickety split.
301
00:12:40,320 -->
00:12:42,800
It'd be really, really tough
for teachers to know if that's evidence
302
00:12:42,800 -->
00:12:43,840
of their learning or not.
303
00:12:43,840 -->
00:12:45,920
So I would say that's really changed.
304
00:12:46,960 -->
00:12:52,420
Maybe it's pushed people or
schools to say, you know, the, we
305
00:12:52,420 -->
00:12:55,780
can't fight up against that,
that, that hill, that wall of the
306
00:12:55,780 -->
00:12:59,180
Internet, AI and everything
that comes with it.
307
00:12:59,260 -->
00:13:02,340
We need to get more clear
about what it is, the evidence of
308
00:13:02,340 -->
00:13:03,100
learning actually is.
309
00:13:03,100 -->
00:13:05,740
And how can we make sure it's.
310
00:13:05,740 -->
00:13:07,420
It's coming from the students themselves.
311
00:13:07,420 -->
00:13:10,380
And ironically, I think it's
pushed more back into the classroom
312
00:13:11,500 -->
00:13:14,660
from, you know, think about
the one to one initiatives over the
313
00:13:14,660 -->
00:13:16,740
last 20, 30 years and so on
and so forth.
314
00:13:16,740 -->
00:13:19,590
Like so much was getting done
in a flipped model.
315
00:13:20,150 -->
00:13:23,990
But now I'm really starting to
see a lot more practice done in the
316
00:13:23,990 -->
00:13:29,190
classroom with the teacher
present and hopefully that thinking
317
00:13:29,190 -->
00:13:31,630
that everybody's cheating or whatever.
318
00:13:31,630 -->
00:13:34,110
But what I like about it is
you and I know that the research
319
00:13:34,110 -->
00:13:36,350
on feedback is tremendous for learning.
320
00:13:36,350 -->
00:13:38,630
And so it's hard to get
feedback when I'm not right there
321
00:13:38,630 -->
00:13:39,470
with my students.
322
00:13:39,470 -->
00:13:42,910
And so I Think it creates that
opportunity, so long as we can make
323
00:13:42,910 -->
00:13:45,950
sure that teachers have the
training and the time and the support
324
00:13:45,950 -->
00:13:47,670
to be able to provide timely feedback.
325
00:13:47,750 -->
00:13:51,070
So those are some, like,
evolutions and changes, maybe not
326
00:13:51,070 -->
00:13:54,550
so positive or positive from
technology during the last 20 years.
327
00:13:55,110 -->
00:13:57,990
And maybe state standards, you
know, national standards and, you
328
00:13:57,990 -->
00:14:00,790
know, depending upon the state
that, that you're in as a listener
329
00:14:00,790 -->
00:14:05,270
and of course, the evolving
nature of state standards.
330
00:14:05,270 -->
00:14:05,510
Right.
331
00:14:05,510 -->
00:14:07,950
I mean, there's school, There
are states that adopted Common Core,
332
00:14:07,950 -->
00:14:11,510
then went away and vice versa,
or modified the Common Core for Baffin
333
00:14:11,510 -->
00:14:12,070
ela.
334
00:14:12,600 -->
00:14:14,440
Next generation science
standards came in.
335
00:14:14,440 -->
00:14:16,760
Different states have
different social standards.
336
00:14:17,160 -->
00:14:19,840
You know, states like Iowa and
others have some type of cycle.
337
00:14:19,840 -->
00:14:21,360
They're going on to review the standards.
338
00:14:21,360 -->
00:14:23,280
And, you know, that's.
339
00:14:23,280 -->
00:14:26,520
That that in itself is both a
good thing.
340
00:14:26,840 -->
00:14:27,160
Right.
341
00:14:27,160 -->
00:14:28,279
That we have state standards.
342
00:14:28,279 -->
00:14:30,280
If you want to grade based
upon standards, it's great you have
343
00:14:30,280 -->
00:14:31,440
standards to base them upon.
344
00:14:31,440 -->
00:14:33,680
But it's also a challenging
thing when somebody out there is
345
00:14:33,680 -->
00:14:36,560
like, oh, my gosh, we got new
standards now, or they don't like
346
00:14:36,560 -->
00:14:37,200
the standards.
347
00:14:37,200 -->
00:14:38,720
There's too many of them or
not enough.
348
00:14:38,720 -->
00:14:39,320
And so.
349
00:14:39,780 -->
00:14:42,020
But I think that's something
that's maybe, you know, ingrained
350
00:14:42,020 -->
00:14:45,700
in part of the conversations
now that wasn't 20 years ago.
351
00:14:45,940 -->
00:14:46,300
Yeah.
352
00:14:46,300 -->
00:14:51,300
Remember we found out when we
were writing our book for parents,
353
00:14:51,300 -->
00:14:53,460
you know, parents Guide
degrading and Reporting, Trying to
354
00:14:53,460 -->
00:14:57,340
be Clear about what matters,
our 2023 book, you know, we had to
355
00:14:57,340 -->
00:15:00,420
jump off right away in chapter
one to talk about just what standards
356
00:15:00,420 -->
00:15:00,740
were.
357
00:15:00,980 -->
00:15:04,540
We found through research and
interviews that parents just didn't
358
00:15:04,540 -->
00:15:04,900
know what.
359
00:15:04,900 -->
00:15:06,580
They didn't really know what
standards were.
360
00:15:07,000 -->
00:15:07,880
How long have they been around?
361
00:15:07,880 -->
00:15:10,120
What did they look like, how
were they composed?
362
00:15:11,960 -->
00:15:15,240
And I think they're pretty
blown away by what standards are.
363
00:15:15,480 -->
00:15:17,400
You know, it's funny, we talk
about technology.
364
00:15:17,560 -->
00:15:20,280
I think everybody probably
listening or watching the podcast
365
00:15:20,280 -->
00:15:24,600
has seen, you know, a Common
Core Math, you know, slam on Facebook
366
00:15:24,680 -->
00:15:25,400
or whatever.
367
00:15:26,280 -->
00:15:29,560
And I can understand that if
you're coming from a perspective
368
00:15:29,560 -->
00:15:32,320
that just seems so different
than what maybe you experienced in
369
00:15:32,320 -->
00:15:32,520
school.
370
00:15:32,520 -->
00:15:33,960
And I, and I totally get that.
371
00:15:33,960 -->
00:15:37,470
But largely and more broadly,
I think the state standards I've
372
00:15:37,470 -->
00:15:40,670
seen, you know, bring a level
of rigor and context to what students
373
00:15:40,670 -->
00:15:41,630
are supposed to learn.
374
00:15:41,630 -->
00:15:44,430
That was really just the Wild
west before that.
375
00:15:44,430 -->
00:15:48,870
And it's amazing to think
like, man, the 1990s, like the late
376
00:15:48,870 -->
00:15:52,630
90s and early 2000s, that that
really starts to take a hold across
377
00:15:52,630 -->
00:15:53,390
the United States.
378
00:15:53,390 -->
00:15:56,430
And you think about
globalization, you think about how
379
00:15:56,430 -->
00:16:01,890
long parents or stay in one
job and, and then how transient I
380
00:16:01,890 -->
00:16:05,570
guess our cultures become and
the importance of having some system
381
00:16:05,570 -->
00:16:07,810
of a semblance of continuity
for kids.
382
00:16:08,050 -->
00:16:10,570
And the challenge it would be,
and we still see it today, I mean
383
00:16:10,570 -->
00:16:12,610
I, I see it in our schools all
the time.
384
00:16:12,690 -->
00:16:15,010
Students just move four miles
down the road, come to a different
385
00:16:15,010 -->
00:16:15,570
school district.
386
00:16:16,050 -->
00:16:18,770
Their, the scope and sequence
is entirely different.
387
00:16:18,850 -->
00:16:21,770
Even within the courses, the
standards might be just completely
388
00:16:21,770 -->
00:16:22,050
different.
389
00:16:22,210 -->
00:16:25,130
So still a really big
challenge for students today.
390
00:16:25,130 -->
00:16:27,720
But nonetheless that's, that's
been a change.
391
00:16:29,160 -->
00:16:31,720
Whether you do standards based
grading or not, you still have standards
392
00:16:31,720 -->
00:16:34,040
that you're accountable to for
the most part in most states.
393
00:16:34,120 -->
00:16:38,200
So it's something that has
certainly evolved and I think worth
394
00:16:38,200 -->
00:16:38,640
exploring.
395
00:16:38,640 -->
00:16:40,920
If you're a parent, it's like,
you know, I don't get it.
396
00:16:41,880 -->
00:16:45,160
Take a look at some standards
or at least do some inquiry of just
397
00:16:45,160 -->
00:16:48,360
what it might look like and
ask your teachers of your students,
398
00:16:48,360 -->
00:16:51,480
like, can I see an example of
what standards are really important
399
00:16:51,480 -->
00:16:53,000
for this grade level or for
this class?
400
00:16:53,000 -->
00:16:54,360
I think it'd be pretty eye opening.
401
00:16:55,840 -->
00:16:57,800
One of the things about
thinking about Chad, you know, obviously
402
00:16:57,800 -->
00:17:00,240
there's some things that are
the same, some things that are different.
403
00:17:00,320 -->
00:17:07,200
But why, like why, why still
grading in 2026?
404
00:17:07,200 -->
00:17:11,440
Like why is it still, you
know, we're, we're doing this podcast
405
00:17:11,520 -->
00:17:14,360
and you know, people been
talking about grading forever but
406
00:17:14,360 -->
00:17:22,000
like why, why do you think it
matters now more than because, I
407
00:17:22,000 -->
00:17:24,480
mean I get just as excited
about it, even more excited about
408
00:17:24,480 -->
00:17:24,600
it.
409
00:17:24,600 -->
00:17:28,320
But like why now more than
ever before?
410
00:17:30,240 -->
00:17:34,080
I think for me it's different
probably as an individual than it
411
00:17:34,080 -->
00:17:36,960
is maybe for a system, I think
for a system and a school.
412
00:17:37,840 -->
00:17:42,640
Certainly there's some schools
that have a really altruistic endeavor
413
00:17:42,640 -->
00:17:43,280
in front of them.
414
00:17:43,280 -->
00:17:46,120
They want to do right by
students, they want to make sure
415
00:17:46,120 -->
00:17:47,600
they're doing equitable practices.
416
00:17:48,360 -->
00:17:52,680
You mentioned Joe Feldman's
work and that's absolutely important.
417
00:17:53,400 -->
00:17:58,520
I think for me as an
individual, I think the opportunities
418
00:17:58,760 -->
00:18:03,320
lost when we don't have the
opportunity to communicate accurately
419
00:18:03,320 -->
00:18:07,200
what a student can know or do
right now, wherever they're at in
420
00:18:07,200 -->
00:18:13,160
their educational journey,
just taking a 10,000 foot view and
421
00:18:13,160 -->
00:18:16,760
looking backwards on a
student's life and at every opportunity
422
00:18:16,760 -->
00:18:20,550
in which a grade is produced
that may or may not be accurate of
423
00:18:20,550 -->
00:18:24,910
what the child can know or do,
and the waterfall or cascading effect
424
00:18:24,910 -->
00:18:29,830
that has positively or
negatively and the importance of
425
00:18:29,830 -->
00:18:33,590
it being accurate about what
they can know or do, whether that's
426
00:18:33,590 -->
00:18:37,630
Getting into a gifted program,
whether that's getting provided opportunity
427
00:18:37,630 -->
00:18:41,390
to meet an IEP goal, whether
that's getting into maybe a really
428
00:18:41,390 -->
00:18:44,750
advanced career and technical
program or the military or a scholarship
429
00:18:46,180 -->
00:18:48,820
and then actually like the
long term effects of it not being
430
00:18:48,820 -->
00:18:49,980
accurate while on the face.
431
00:18:49,980 -->
00:18:52,580
You know, we talk a little bit
about grade inflation being a hot
432
00:18:52,580 -->
00:18:53,300
topic today.
433
00:18:53,860 -->
00:18:56,340
You know, what if you have
straight A's in high school and you
434
00:18:56,340 -->
00:18:59,580
and you get to your university
on some great scholarship and you
435
00:18:59,580 -->
00:19:03,140
just don't know what your
grades say you do and the ramification
436
00:19:03,140 -->
00:19:05,980
that has on your mental health
and the ramifications it has on your
437
00:19:05,980 -->
00:19:09,140
pocketbook or your parents
pocketbook when you're taking remediation
438
00:19:09,140 -->
00:19:12,670
classes or whatever, you know,
that's deeply personal to me.
439
00:19:12,990 -->
00:19:15,790
I think we have the
responsibility just to make sure.
440
00:19:16,350 -->
00:19:21,590
And I think thirdly, systems
are just feeling squeezed down to
441
00:19:21,590 -->
00:19:23,470
a nub with the traditional metrics.
442
00:19:24,430 -->
00:19:26,110
They're becoming so useless.
443
00:19:26,750 -->
00:19:30,710
It becomes the wild wild west
with points and so much arbitrary
444
00:19:30,710 -->
00:19:32,590
use across their school or
their system.
445
00:19:32,590 -->
00:19:36,550
Even within a school the
variability is just so wild that
446
00:19:36,550 -->
00:19:39,270
it's really, you know, a
teacher lottery could have a greater
447
00:19:39,270 -->
00:19:43,290
impact on your GPA than your
ability to know the standards in
448
00:19:43,290 -->
00:19:46,530
some systems we've seen and I
think that's just completely unfair.
449
00:19:47,170 -->
00:19:49,850
And I think it puts school
administrators, sometimes school
450
00:19:49,850 -->
00:19:53,810
boards just in absolutely no
win situations to try to defend one
451
00:19:53,810 -->
00:19:56,930
practice over another where
there's just knowing, no consistency
452
00:19:57,810 -->
00:19:58,610
in reporting.
453
00:19:58,610 -->
00:20:01,050
And then the last thing I
would say is that it's not created
454
00:20:01,050 -->
00:20:04,170
really very good relationships
and schools are sick and tired of
455
00:20:04,170 -->
00:20:04,450
it.
456
00:20:05,890 -->
00:20:08,370
They don't have the best
relationships with their students.
457
00:20:08,370 -->
00:20:10,530
They don't have the best
relationships with their parents
458
00:20:10,530 -->
00:20:13,790
and their guardians and
oftentimes their grandparents because
459
00:20:13,790 -->
00:20:18,830
they're talking about this
idea of lagging measures, grades
460
00:20:19,870 -->
00:20:23,870
and compliance and completion,
which doesn't really do a great job
461
00:20:23,870 -->
00:20:25,470
at developing relationships.
462
00:20:26,350 -->
00:20:29,149
And all the while I'm not
talking about or ever advocating
463
00:20:29,149 -->
00:20:30,110
for lowering the standard.
464
00:20:30,110 -->
00:20:31,710
In fact, just quite the contraries.
465
00:20:32,030 -->
00:20:35,950
Grading reform is a long term
shift, not a one time program.
466
00:20:36,830 -->
00:20:38,430
As you listen to Matt and Chad
467
00:20:38,430 -->
00:20:40,910
unpack what works, here's a
practical question.
468
00:20:41,550 -->
00:20:43,630
Where does the evidence of
student learning
469
00:20:43,710 -->
00:20:45,550
actually live in your district?
470
00:20:46,590 -->
00:20:49,390
Spaces Edu is a digital
portfolio and
471
00:20:49,390 -->
00:20:52,350
proficiency based assessment
platform that helps districts make
472
00:20:52,350 -->
00:20:53,230
learning visible.
473
00:20:53,710 -->
00:20:56,990
Students collect authentic
evidence, align it to standards or
474
00:20:56,990 -->
00:20:59,950
competencies and reflect on
their growth over time.
475
00:21:00,510 -->
00:21:02,950
If your grading system is
changing, the
476
00:21:02,950 -->
00:21:05,340
way you capture learning has
to to change too.
477
00:21:05,900 -->
00:21:10,820
Explore how@spaceseedu.com
grading so I think.
478
00:21:10,820 -->
00:21:15,460
Those are different pressure
points from different lenses, and
479
00:21:15,460 -->
00:21:18,460
some of them all work together
as schools and school systems and
480
00:21:18,460 -->
00:21:20,060
families are really thinking
about teachers.
481
00:21:20,060 -->
00:21:20,780
Of course, too.
482
00:21:21,100 -->
00:21:21,900
What about you?
483
00:21:22,860 -->
00:21:24,340
Yeah, of course.
484
00:21:24,340 -->
00:21:25,740
I agree with all the things
you said there.
485
00:21:25,740 -->
00:21:29,100
One of the things that comes
to mind is this idea of, like, in
486
00:21:29,100 -->
00:21:31,710
2026, information just freeze.
487
00:21:31,710 -->
00:21:33,630
So it just.
488
00:21:33,630 -->
00:21:34,590
It just flows.
489
00:21:34,750 -->
00:21:35,190
Yeah.
490
00:21:35,190 -->
00:21:36,750
And, you know, think.
491
00:21:36,750 -->
00:21:39,710
Think back to that area you
were talking about where, as a student,
492
00:21:39,710 -->
00:21:42,230
when we were in school, you
didn't know what grade you're getting
493
00:21:42,230 -->
00:21:44,150
because it was, like, hidden
in that teacher's book.
494
00:21:44,150 -->
00:21:44,390
Right.
495
00:21:44,390 -->
00:21:47,470
You had to go ask, you know,
Mr. Smith, what's my grade right
496
00:21:47,470 -->
00:21:47,710
now?
497
00:21:47,710 -->
00:21:50,190
And, you know, you get some
answer from them.
498
00:21:50,430 -->
00:21:53,230
Then we introduced, you know,
electronic grade books.
499
00:21:53,470 -->
00:21:56,150
And I remember, like, when I
was a teacher, we had to, like, we
500
00:21:56,150 -->
00:22:00,110
were constantly encouraging
parents to sign up for, you know,
501
00:22:00,110 -->
00:22:01,710
the access and to.
502
00:22:01,710 -->
00:22:02,270
And do that.
503
00:22:02,270 -->
00:22:04,130
Now we've got you, like, like
you talked about.
504
00:22:04,130 -->
00:22:07,490
We've got scoreboard watching
as one paradigm for it.
505
00:22:07,490 -->
00:22:08,890
You can get pinged on your watch.
506
00:22:09,050 -->
00:22:09,490
Yeah.
507
00:22:09,490 -->
00:22:12,250
When your kid gets a new
notification from whatever.
508
00:22:12,570 -->
00:22:17,170
And so I think now there's an
opportunity for both sides of the
509
00:22:17,170 -->
00:22:18,010
spectrum to happen.
510
00:22:18,330 -->
00:22:22,330
What I mean by that is one is
just to not even question what the
511
00:22:22,330 -->
00:22:26,650
information is, but just to
chase getting better at it if you're
512
00:22:26,650 -->
00:22:27,690
a parent or a kid.
513
00:22:27,850 -->
00:22:28,250
Right.
514
00:22:28,250 -->
00:22:29,690
So I think that's one opportunity.
515
00:22:30,430 -->
00:22:33,550
And school can maybe get away
with that as long as things are going
516
00:22:33,550 -->
00:22:34,030
okay.
517
00:22:34,030 -->
00:22:34,390
Right.
518
00:22:34,390 -->
00:22:36,990
As long as it's consistent
from one class to the next.
519
00:22:37,150 -->
00:22:39,190
As long as it's perceived to
be clear and equitable.
520
00:22:39,190 -->
00:22:40,390
All those things we just
talked about.
521
00:22:40,390 -->
00:22:40,750
Right.
522
00:22:41,070 -->
00:22:44,470
On the flip side is because
information flows so freely, there's
523
00:22:44,470 -->
00:22:48,750
also another opportunity, I
think, for parents, educators, even
524
00:22:48,750 -->
00:22:53,150
students to question, you
know, hey, how come in this class,
525
00:22:53,150 -->
00:22:56,680
my kid had a test today and
this other section, they didn't?
526
00:22:56,680 -->
00:22:59,320
Because parents wouldn't have
known that, you know, 20 years ago.
527
00:22:59,560 -->
00:23:00,120
That's right.
528
00:23:00,280 -->
00:23:01,760
Well, they wouldn't even maybe
know them.
529
00:23:01,760 -->
00:23:04,400
That you just, you know, if
you're a parent and your kid just
530
00:23:04,400 -->
00:23:07,520
got, you know, I'm making this
up 30 extra points for extra credit
531
00:23:07,520 -->
00:23:10,520
on something that can get
around the neighborhood in five seconds
532
00:23:10,520 -->
00:23:10,840
now.
533
00:23:10,840 -->
00:23:11,240
Yeah.
534
00:23:11,240 -->
00:23:12,520
It shouldn't back then.
535
00:23:13,080 -->
00:23:15,560
And so I think there's
information for things, both the.
536
00:23:15,640 -->
00:23:21,000
The unquestioned traditions to
be okay, but also the not good things.
537
00:23:22,370 -->
00:23:25,330
Those things can also be a
hindrance, I think, because that
538
00:23:25,330 -->
00:23:27,250
information flows so freely.
539
00:23:27,570 -->
00:23:30,370
Schools are saying, to a
certain degree, the ones that we
540
00:23:30,370 -->
00:23:32,130
feel Are, you know, working
the right direction?
541
00:23:32,210 -->
00:23:33,730
We gotta get this right.
542
00:23:34,050 -->
00:23:37,770
Yeah, we've got to be
consistent, clear and equitable in
543
00:23:37,770 -->
00:23:39,410
the way that we do this
creating thing.
544
00:23:39,410 -->
00:23:43,570
Because kids just aren't
recycling their stuff in the recycling
545
00:23:43,570 -->
00:23:45,010
box when they get it back anymore.
546
00:23:45,170 -->
00:23:49,180
As a high school kid, it's
stored on canvas or whatever the
547
00:23:49,180 -->
00:23:52,500
system is, and so a parent can
access it and then begin to question
548
00:23:52,500 -->
00:23:54,420
it if they so desire.
549
00:23:54,660 -->
00:23:57,580
Yeah, and not only that, like,
not only that, like one of the things
550
00:23:57,580 -->
00:23:59,660
you and I have spent a lot of
time thinking about in the recent
551
00:23:59,660 -->
00:24:01,540
years is this notification culture.
552
00:24:02,260 -->
00:24:03,660
We're all victim to it.
553
00:24:03,660 -->
00:24:06,460
And we, I'm sure we've seen,
you know, Jonathan Heights work and
554
00:24:06,460 -->
00:24:09,060
anxious generation and, and so
much of it.
555
00:24:09,380 -->
00:24:13,020
It's like we know it, but we
really challenge ourselves from not
556
00:24:13,020 -->
00:24:13,620
having that.
557
00:24:14,300 -->
00:24:17,180
Just, it's just so set up so
easily between the watches and the
558
00:24:17,180 -->
00:24:18,460
phones and all those kinds of things.
559
00:24:18,860 -->
00:24:22,700
But when you start
infiltrating, grading and like scoreboard
560
00:24:22,700 -->
00:24:27,820
watching of your kids grades,
the danger that we've seen is you
561
00:24:27,820 -->
00:24:28,980
have no context to it.
562
00:24:28,980 -->
00:24:31,540
You know, I mentioned earlier
that parents really struggled to
563
00:24:31,540 -->
00:24:32,780
understand standards.
564
00:24:33,580 -->
00:24:35,140
Not when they're getting
exposed to them.
565
00:24:35,140 -->
00:24:37,380
Like eventually they, if they
have an opportunity to really understand,
566
00:24:37,380 -->
00:24:40,500
you know, like, oh, so this is
what it is, they're being, you know,
567
00:24:40,500 -->
00:24:41,980
assessed or evaluated on.
568
00:24:42,250 -->
00:24:44,810
Okay, I get that, that makes
more sense to me.
569
00:24:44,810 -->
00:24:47,210
But off the jump, they rarely
have time.
570
00:24:47,210 -->
00:24:50,010
You know, schools really
typically falter in the phase of
571
00:24:50,330 -->
00:24:53,130
we haven't given any context
to this data that we're communicating
572
00:24:53,130 -->
00:24:56,690
to you that you signed up for
that the moment the teacher submits
573
00:24:56,690 -->
00:24:59,850
it, you get a notification,
you have no context for that information.
574
00:25:00,810 -->
00:25:04,970
And I always make it analogous
to like other areas that have professionals
575
00:25:04,970 -->
00:25:06,130
that have these things.
576
00:25:06,130 -->
00:25:10,010
You know, I just got a new
doctor, we moved to a new community
577
00:25:10,010 -->
00:25:11,930
this year and I got a new
family physician.
578
00:25:12,460 -->
00:25:15,820
I had, my wife's been using
the, my charting and all that.
579
00:25:16,780 -->
00:25:19,740
Perfect example, but, but I'd
never used it before.
580
00:25:19,820 -->
00:25:22,700
And so like to get a new
family physician, I had to like get
581
00:25:22,700 -->
00:25:25,420
a wellness check, get a blood
panel and all that kind of stuff,
582
00:25:25,420 -->
00:25:26,020
which was fine.
583
00:25:26,020 -->
00:25:27,180
I thought it was a great idea.
584
00:25:27,340 -->
00:25:32,420
But ironically enough, it's
really ironic coming to me before
585
00:25:32,420 -->
00:25:33,140
this school year.
586
00:25:33,140 -->
00:25:36,300
I think it was like in August
when I had this done, I got all these
587
00:25:36,300 -->
00:25:36,660
pings.
588
00:25:36,660 -->
00:25:38,900
Like I just kept getting these
pings while all these lab reports
589
00:25:38,900 -->
00:25:39,660
were coming in.
590
00:25:40,040 -->
00:25:42,480
And they didn't tell me like
when I left the position and it was
591
00:25:42,480 -->
00:25:42,800
really great.
592
00:25:42,800 -->
00:25:43,480
Visit and everything.
593
00:25:44,520 -->
00:25:47,680
They said, you know, I'll call
you when your lab reports come in.
594
00:25:47,680 -->
00:25:48,680
We can go through them together.
595
00:25:48,760 -->
00:25:51,520
Well, whoever was doing the
lab work, right, like, they were
596
00:25:51,520 -->
00:25:55,360
inputting it and I'm getting
charts and I mean, triglycerides
597
00:25:55,360 -->
00:25:56,760
and I mean all this kind of stuff.
598
00:25:56,840 -->
00:25:59,280
And, you know, thankfully most
of it was good, but one of them was,
599
00:25:59,280 -->
00:26:02,400
like, out of the medium range
and into sort of the red zone, which,
600
00:26:02,400 -->
00:26:05,440
you know, I'm not super smart,
but I know what green and yellow
601
00:26:05,440 -->
00:26:06,120
and red mean.
602
00:26:06,590 -->
00:26:07,870
And so of course I'm panicking.
603
00:26:07,870 -->
00:26:09,270
I'm like, okay, do we need to
go to the.
604
00:26:09,270 -->
00:26:12,830
You know, I'm not like, go to
the er, but I'm kind of like, hey,
605
00:26:13,310 -->
00:26:14,350
this is surprising.
606
00:26:14,430 -->
00:26:15,310
Like, I didn't.
607
00:26:15,310 -->
00:26:16,350
I feel pretty good.
608
00:26:16,350 -->
00:26:20,270
I definitely could shed some
pounds, like, whatever, but I had
609
00:26:20,270 -->
00:26:20,990
no context.
610
00:26:20,990 -->
00:26:24,950
So I'm like, messaging, okay,
because you can message into the
611
00:26:24,950 -->
00:26:26,470
ether, like, I don't know who
it's going to.
612
00:26:26,470 -->
00:26:28,150
I'm like, do I need to set up
an appointment right away?
613
00:26:28,150 -->
00:26:29,870
And is this something to worry about?
614
00:26:29,870 -->
00:26:30,710
And blah, blah, blah.
615
00:26:30,710 -->
00:26:33,350
And so, you know, eventually
actually my physician was able to
616
00:26:33,350 -->
00:26:33,990
get the message.
617
00:26:33,990 -->
00:26:36,550
It got routed to him, you
know, and he called me and he's like,
618
00:26:36,550 -->
00:26:38,140
hey, I meant to call you.
619
00:26:38,140 -->
00:26:39,260
I had to see a few patients.
620
00:26:39,260 -->
00:26:39,900
I'm sorry.
621
00:26:39,900 -->
00:26:41,460
It was only like two hours later.
622
00:26:41,460 -->
00:26:42,540
Like, I was on his list.
623
00:26:42,540 -->
00:26:42,900
Right.
624
00:26:43,540 -->
00:26:46,420
But think about the panic, the
anxiety and everything that I went
625
00:26:46,420 -->
00:26:48,660
through and didn't take any
drastic actions.
626
00:26:49,780 -->
00:26:52,380
I mean, I was ready to give up
Doritos, like, in the moment for
627
00:26:52,380 -->
00:26:53,540
sure, but.
628
00:26:54,180 -->
00:26:55,860
And you know, I'm doing okay there.
629
00:26:55,860 -->
00:26:58,940
But I think, you know, that
illustrates the exact point that
630
00:26:58,940 -->
00:26:59,980
I mean to think about.
631
00:26:59,980 -->
00:27:02,620
And you and I both know we've
probably even experienced this.
632
00:27:02,620 -->
00:27:05,020
And I've most certainly seen
it as a principal, when I was an
633
00:27:05,020 -->
00:27:07,690
administrator of, like,
parents texting or calling their
634
00:27:07,690 -->
00:27:09,490
kids during the middle of the
day at lunch.
635
00:27:09,570 -->
00:27:10,730
This is unacceptable.
636
00:27:10,730 -->
00:27:11,650
Blah, blah.
637
00:27:12,290 -->
00:27:13,170
I mean, really.
638
00:27:13,170 -->
00:27:15,250
And, and I applaud the accountability.
639
00:27:15,330 -->
00:27:17,010
Like, I have no issues with parents.
640
00:27:17,170 -->
00:27:18,130
I think that's great.
641
00:27:19,010 -->
00:27:20,370
But I have some major issue.
642
00:27:20,370 -->
00:27:24,970
When we take professional data
that was curated within context with
643
00:27:24,970 -->
00:27:27,330
the best intentions in mind,
and then we haven't set the stage
644
00:27:27,330 -->
00:27:29,490
to have a conversation about
what that data means.
645
00:27:29,570 -->
00:27:31,890
That's pretty dangerous
territory in any profession.
646
00:27:32,390 -->
00:27:35,550
Um, you know, and so it is
professional data.
647
00:27:35,550 -->
00:27:38,470
You know, you're evaluating
standards that are pretty complex
648
00:27:38,470 -->
00:27:43,030
for people to try to, you
know, and so, you know, I'm sure
649
00:27:43,030 -->
00:27:45,550
you have said this, but I've
always worked on having opportunities
650
00:27:45,550 -->
00:27:48,630
to say, hey, what preview
opportunities do we have to communicate
651
00:27:48,630 -->
00:27:51,190
with parents when things are
going to be evaluated and what's
652
00:27:51,190 -->
00:27:53,950
going to be evaluated and what
it might look like and maybe what
653
00:27:53,950 -->
00:27:55,230
the reporting metric might be.
654
00:27:55,230 -->
00:27:56,310
Is it going to be a letter grade?
655
00:27:56,310 -->
00:28:00,190
Is it going to be a rubric,
performance descriptor?
656
00:28:00,190 -->
00:28:01,590
Is it going to be percentage
or something?
657
00:28:02,380 -->
00:28:05,100
So I think that's kind of some
new territory as well.
658
00:28:05,580 -->
00:28:09,420
But we've definitely seen
some, some pretty poor stories come
659
00:28:09,420 -->
00:28:13,540
from the electronic grading
and getting out of control, you know
660
00:28:13,540 -->
00:28:14,140
what I mean?
661
00:28:14,300 -->
00:28:16,260
Back to the information flow
and all that stuff.
662
00:28:16,260 -->
00:28:18,340
I, you know, of course agree
with what you're saying there, Chad.
663
00:28:18,340 -->
00:28:20,940
I love the pie chart example
that was.
664
00:28:21,740 -->
00:28:22,980
I could, I can relate to that.
665
00:28:22,980 -->
00:28:25,620
As, you know, going to my
annual checkup here soon, gonna probably
666
00:28:25,620 -->
00:28:27,500
get some of those same pings,
all that fun stuff.
667
00:28:30,560 -->
00:28:36,040
It's easy also for, for
educators, families, parents, whatever
668
00:28:36,040 -->
00:28:40,920
it might be to get really
excited or not excited about changes
669
00:28:40,920 -->
00:28:42,160
to grading, right?
670
00:28:42,160 -->
00:28:46,920
Like it's easy to hear, hey,
the school is going towards proficiency
671
00:28:46,920 -->
00:28:48,080
based grading or whatever.
672
00:28:48,240 -->
00:28:52,240
And you hop on Google and you
start seeing the success stories
673
00:28:52,240 -->
00:28:55,040
or the not so great stories, right?
674
00:28:55,040 -->
00:28:59,980
Like I have Google alerts set
up for, you know, phrases like standards
675
00:28:59,980 -->
00:29:02,180
based standards, reference
proficiency based grading.
676
00:29:02,180 -->
00:29:04,860
So every time a news story
comes out, like, it goes to my inbox,
677
00:29:04,860 -->
00:29:05,140
Chad.
678
00:29:05,140 -->
00:29:08,780
And so I see all these
headlines or schools are doing a
679
00:29:08,780 -->
00:29:12,540
great job or there's this
perception of their grading reform
680
00:29:12,540 -->
00:29:13,180
isn't working.
681
00:29:13,740 -->
00:29:16,180
I know that, you know, don't
want to skip too far ahead.
682
00:29:16,180 -->
00:29:19,100
But later on in I think
episode three, me, we'll talk about
683
00:29:19,420 -->
00:29:24,130
this idea of, you know, how
you communicate it without drama.
684
00:29:24,530 -->
00:29:27,970
And I think that's what we're
also seeing is schools that have
685
00:29:27,970 -->
00:29:31,930
communicated it at a high
level are figuring out how to help
686
00:29:31,930 -->
00:29:36,490
parents understand how
advantageous for their kids and advantageous
687
00:29:36,490 -->
00:29:37,690
for the educators in the system.
688
00:29:37,690 -->
00:29:39,850
And of course, on the flip
side, that's not the case.
689
00:29:39,850 -->
00:29:42,690
And I get it though, it's not anybody's.
690
00:29:42,690 -->
00:29:45,370
I mean, we'll talk about some
great strategies to communicate,
691
00:29:45,370 -->
00:29:48,490
but from the parent
perspective, I understand where they're
692
00:29:48,490 -->
00:29:48,970
coming from.
693
00:29:48,970 -->
00:29:52,240
We both got kids that are, you
know, going up through the K12 system.
694
00:29:52,240 -->
00:29:56,200
And I think of, I think it was
Anne Franklin, Tom Buckmiller and
695
00:29:56,200 -->
00:30:00,120
somebody else that did this
paper called something like Understanding
696
00:30:00,120 -->
00:30:02,360
Parents Aversion to Standards
Based Creating.
697
00:30:02,360 -->
00:30:05,280
And this phrase sticks out to
me to this day.
698
00:30:05,280 -->
00:30:08,680
That was published like 2016
or 17, something like that.
699
00:30:08,920 -->
00:30:12,680
The Phrase was parents
confidence for the known.
700
00:30:14,120 -->
00:30:17,080
They were like, you know, in
this study, like part of the reason
701
00:30:17,080 -->
00:30:20,480
that they were like frustrated
with the, with standards based grading
702
00:30:20,480 -->
00:30:23,400
in their school was because
they were confident in that, you
703
00:30:23,400 -->
00:30:26,400
know, points percentages,
letter grades, all that stuff.
704
00:30:26,960 -->
00:30:28,880
And I think it really goes
back to communication.
705
00:30:28,880 -->
00:30:29,280
Right?
706
00:30:29,440 -->
00:30:29,840
Yeah.
707
00:30:29,840 -->
00:30:32,560
In absence of solid
communication, that's we're going
708
00:30:32,560 -->
00:30:35,559
to revert back to is what did
I experience in school?
709
00:30:35,559 -->
00:30:40,240
What do I think school ought
to look like in school today in 2026
710
00:30:40,320 -->
00:30:44,520
in some way still looks the
same, but there's opportunities for
711
00:30:44,520 -->
00:30:46,160
of course, for it to look different.
712
00:30:46,720 -->
00:30:47,640
Yeah, yeah.
713
00:30:47,640 -->
00:30:50,730
And I think like to steal from
our own thunder.
714
00:30:50,810 -->
00:30:53,850
If you've been to a Matt
Townsley and Chad Lang presentation,
715
00:30:53,930 -->
00:30:58,690
you probably have seen
analogies to the adult world because
716
00:30:58,690 -->
00:31:01,450
schools that are rocking
grading reform have done an awesome
717
00:31:01,450 -->
00:31:04,649
job saying like, hey, you
know, we don't just let people reassess
718
00:31:04,649 -->
00:31:05,530
willy nilly.
719
00:31:05,530 -->
00:31:08,170
They have a contract or they
have an agreement that says they'll
720
00:31:08,170 -->
00:31:09,050
be here at this time.
721
00:31:09,130 -->
00:31:11,850
Sort of like your dentist does
when you miss your appointment.
722
00:31:12,410 -->
00:31:14,810
There might be an extra charge
or you might get bumped to Friday
723
00:31:14,810 -->
00:31:16,170
at 8am or whatever.
724
00:31:16,610 -->
00:31:19,010
And so the schools that have
done a great job saying, hey, we're
725
00:31:19,010 -->
00:31:21,970
not lowering the bar for
students here by changing the communication
726
00:31:21,970 -->
00:31:25,730
methodology or even the
calculation methodology, we're actually
727
00:31:25,730 -->
00:31:28,050
doing a better job aligning to
the adult world.
728
00:31:28,450 -->
00:31:30,610
And I feel like that's been a
great success point.
729
00:31:30,610 -->
00:31:33,090
We could talk more about that
later down the road.
730
00:31:33,650 -->
00:31:37,290
So we're seeing better schools
doing that over the last 20 years.
731
00:31:37,290 -->
00:31:39,490
I think that's been awesome to see.
732
00:31:39,970 -->
00:31:42,930
And another thing, like if we
have parents that are listening to
733
00:31:42,930 -->
00:31:47,760
the podcast, schools do things
a little bit different and it's kind
734
00:31:47,760 -->
00:31:52,440
of what makes a neat fabric of
American education, you know, from
735
00:31:52,440 -->
00:31:54,120
school safety to school lunch.
736
00:31:54,440 -->
00:31:57,680
I think I'm in my seventh
district now in my career through
737
00:31:57,680 -->
00:31:59,000
student teaching and so on.
738
00:31:59,000 -->
00:32:02,920
And they all were awesome by kids.
739
00:32:03,960 -->
00:32:06,200
That can't be just the seven
I've been to.
740
00:32:06,200 -->
00:32:06,560
Right.
741
00:32:06,560 -->
00:32:11,280
Like, I think most schools and
they have, you know, quirky kind
742
00:32:11,280 -->
00:32:17,530
of, you know, traditions or
bell schedules or homecoming things
743
00:32:17,530 -->
00:32:21,370
or, or you know, what you need
to do to put more money on your lunch
744
00:32:21,370 -->
00:32:21,650
account.
745
00:32:21,970 -->
00:32:24,890
But when it comes to grading,
you know, just any variation from
746
00:32:24,890 -->
00:32:28,850
what they experience seems
super uncomfortable.
747
00:32:30,130 -->
00:32:33,570
And our students are
experiencing a lot of variation anyways.
748
00:32:34,530 -->
00:32:36,770
We certainly don't want to see
a variation on the output.
749
00:32:36,770 -->
00:32:39,290
You know, that can have
ramifications long term for them.
750
00:32:39,290 -->
00:32:42,040
So if we line up differently
for milk from one school to the next.
751
00:32:42,040 -->
00:32:42,800
Not a big deal.
752
00:32:43,040 -->
00:32:47,400
If we line up differently for
how we calculate your 4th grade math
753
00:32:47,400 -->
00:32:50,520
proficiency score, that's
something we should be majorly concerned
754
00:32:50,520 -->
00:32:53,440
about or second grade reading
or chemistry or whatever.
755
00:32:53,520 -->
00:32:57,600
So we're excited to jump in
and share some stories over this
756
00:32:57,600 -->
00:32:57,920
series.
757
00:32:58,960 -->
00:33:03,480
You can be in store for a lot
of probably stories of self deprecation
758
00:33:03,480 -->
00:33:04,320
from Matt and I.
759
00:33:04,320 -->
00:33:06,080
You know, we, we've been
really lucky.
760
00:33:07,330 -->
00:33:10,610
We have been grading
practitioners as teachers.
761
00:33:11,890 -->
00:33:14,970
I have a social studies
background in math, has Matt has
762
00:33:14,970 -->
00:33:15,890
a math background.
763
00:33:17,330 -->
00:33:19,970
We've been in school
administrators and district office
764
00:33:20,050 -->
00:33:20,450
leaders.
765
00:33:21,490 -->
00:33:25,610
Matt's at higher education and
I've been at central office and we've
766
00:33:25,610 -->
00:33:27,010
been able to do a lot of
different things.
767
00:33:27,650 -->
00:33:30,370
I've been able to implement
some competency based grading at
768
00:33:30,370 -->
00:33:32,210
the university level and
graduate school.
769
00:33:32,370 -->
00:33:37,020
So we feel like we have a
unique offering for folks and we're
770
00:33:37,020 -->
00:33:40,740
so happy to be able to share
it as well across time.
771
00:33:40,900 -->
00:33:42,340
Certainly not unique to us.
772
00:33:42,660 -->
00:33:46,340
You know, we really believe,
and I think you can see that by our
773
00:33:46,340 -->
00:33:49,099
work that we stand on the
shoulders of the giants before us
774
00:33:49,099 -->
00:33:52,900
in this work and we're even
fortunate enough to call some of
775
00:33:52,900 -->
00:33:53,460
them friends.
776
00:33:54,900 -->
00:33:57,940
You know, I wouldn't be on
this podcast if it wasn't for the
777
00:33:57,940 -->
00:33:59,380
Rick Warmly video series.
778
00:33:59,930 -->
00:34:04,250
So I was so grateful to get to
tell Rick that in person here last
779
00:34:04,250 -->
00:34:04,890
November.
780
00:34:04,890 -->
00:34:07,890
So, you know, I'm excited for
the journey.
781
00:34:07,890 -->
00:34:11,610
Matt, with you in this
miniseries, looking forward to it.
782
00:34:13,450 -->
00:34:14,250
What do you think?
783
00:34:14,250 -->
00:34:17,450
I mean, what do what gets you
fired up for the next three episodes
784
00:34:17,450 -->
00:34:19,050
and where, where would you
like to go?
785
00:34:19,850 -->
00:34:23,450
Yeah, I think one thing stands
out to me and that's in 2026, through
786
00:34:23,450 -->
00:34:29,580
this podcast and other means,
there's, there's 10 times, maybe
787
00:34:29,580 -->
00:34:33,180
a hundred times more resources
out there for school leaders and
788
00:34:33,180 -->
00:34:35,300
educators that want to do this
work well.
789
00:34:35,620 -->
00:34:38,500
And that I think is why we're
getting together, Chad, to have this
790
00:34:38,500 -->
00:34:39,140
conversation.
791
00:34:39,460 -->
00:34:42,740
Not because we've done it
right or well every time, but we
792
00:34:42,740 -->
00:34:45,580
want to share how we've
curated ideas like from Rick and
793
00:34:45,580 -->
00:34:48,260
from others and applied them
in our schools and classrooms.
794
00:34:48,340 -->
00:34:51,140
Because back when we were
doing as teachers, all there was
795
00:34:51,140 -->
00:34:55,609
was the how to get started
maybe in the why you should be changing
796
00:34:55,849 -->
00:34:57,129
books and resources.
797
00:34:57,369 -->
00:35:01,609
And now we've got, you know,
hundred books or something like that
798
00:35:01,849 -->
00:35:04,009
that can help schools that
really want to do this.
799
00:35:04,009 -->
00:35:06,969
And so our, our podcast is a
humble contribution.
800
00:35:06,969 -->
00:35:09,489
These episodes are a humble
contribution to help leaders that
801
00:35:09,489 -->
00:35:13,049
maybe don't have time to pick
up the book or they're on their commute
802
00:35:13,689 -->
00:35:15,729
from one place to the next to
listen in here.
803
00:35:15,729 -->
00:35:16,969
And so that's what gets me excited.
804
00:35:16,969 -->
00:35:19,369
Just a different way of
spreading the good word out there.
805
00:35:19,650 -->
00:35:24,290
Yeah, and the thing is too,
like, for all the listeners, we don't
806
00:35:24,290 -->
00:35:25,210
claim to be experts.
807
00:35:25,210 -->
00:35:29,810
We, we have sort of a, maybe a
greater passion for the work.
808
00:35:29,810 -->
00:35:32,010
And, you know, one of the
things that really chides us who
809
00:35:32,010 -->
00:35:34,130
are in the work is, you know,
what does the research say about
810
00:35:34,130 -->
00:35:35,090
grading reform?
811
00:35:35,090 -->
00:35:38,370
And there certainly is
research about grading reform.
812
00:35:39,410 -->
00:35:43,330
But I think when we try to
take it a bridge too far and say,
813
00:35:43,330 -->
00:35:45,930
well, you know, what's the
research about, you know, academic
814
00:35:45,930 -->
00:35:50,410
achievement or, you know,
that's a bridge too far, we're not,
815
00:35:50,410 -->
00:35:53,650
we're not advocating to say
that how we communicate about what
816
00:35:53,650 -->
00:35:57,450
a person can know or do could
lead to, you know, wholesale school
817
00:35:57,450 -->
00:35:59,330
improvement or the downfall of society.
818
00:35:59,330 -->
00:36:03,410
But there's certainly some
tangential issues or concerns that
819
00:36:03,410 -->
00:36:04,730
we can connect to the research.
820
00:36:05,690 -->
00:36:08,050
And it wouldn't take too far
of the Google search like you've
821
00:36:08,050 -->
00:36:09,290
mentioned to find that.
822
00:36:09,450 -->
00:36:13,040
And our friend Tom Shimmer
always says, you know, it's not always
823
00:36:13,040 -->
00:36:15,320
about the research, but
certainly, you know, we've had a
824
00:36:15,320 -->
00:36:17,480
hundred and some years to try
to get it right with points based
825
00:36:17,480 -->
00:36:21,120
grading and what that does for
student motivation and accuracy and
826
00:36:21,120 -->
00:36:21,560
validity.
827
00:36:21,560 -->
00:36:24,320
And there's just not much
there to support that work.
828
00:36:24,320 -->
00:36:27,240
And so, you know, we're
excited about continuing to evolve
829
00:36:28,040 -->
00:36:32,240
and help folks dive in
wherever they can and whenever they're
830
00:36:32,240 -->
00:36:35,560
ready and provide this
opportunity as a podcast to do that.
831
00:36:35,640 -->
00:36:40,170
So any last thoughts, Matt,
before we close up this first episode
832
00:36:40,170 -->
00:36:44,850
of the 20 Years in the
Trenches miniseries featured on Forward
833
00:36:44,850 -->
00:36:47,690
Ed, we're super excited for
them to be able to feature us and
834
00:36:47,690 -->
00:36:49,010
all of our sponsors as well.
835
00:36:49,810 -->
00:36:52,610
What's on your mind as we head
into episode two?
836
00:36:53,090 -->
00:36:56,170
Yeah, I hope, I hope this
podcast series is kind of like going
837
00:36:56,170 -->
00:36:59,290
to the ice cream shop where
you can ask for just a little sample
838
00:36:59,290 -->
00:37:00,130
on a spoon.
839
00:37:00,370 -->
00:37:01,090
There you go.
840
00:37:01,250 -->
00:37:04,610
And you get it and you like it
and you'll want to come back next
841
00:37:04,610 -->
00:37:07,330
time to try the other flavor
that you couldn't get your tooth.
842
00:37:07,330 -->
00:37:08,450
There you go this time.
843
00:37:08,690 -->
00:37:10,370
Yeah, I think that's what this
is all about.
844
00:37:10,370 -->
00:37:14,770
Just, you know, tasting the
ice cream at the ice cream shop and
845
00:37:14,770 -->
00:37:15,970
liking what you're eating.
846
00:37:16,370 -->
00:37:18,450
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way
to end it.
847
00:37:18,450 -->
00:37:21,850
Well, Matt, I, absolutely, I,
of course, have enjoyed our conversation
848
00:37:21,850 -->
00:37:22,530
immensely.
849
00:37:23,090 -->
00:37:26,170
Like I said from the jump,
it's kind of like just our normal
850
00:37:26,170 -->
00:37:26,690
conversation.
851
00:37:26,690 -->
00:37:29,170
It's just recorded for
everyone to hopefully enjoy.
852
00:37:29,560 -->
00:37:32,760
There's a lot more coming down
the line in our future episodes.
853
00:37:32,760 -->
00:37:36,920
You can always reach out to us
on X or LinkedIn.
854
00:37:37,080 -->
00:37:37,800
Give us a look.
855
00:37:37,800 -->
00:37:42,080
Matt Townsley Chad Lang we'll
be connecting with you soon on episode
856
00:37:42,080 -->
00:37:42,440
two.
857
00:37:43,160 -->
00:37:45,400
Thanks a lot for your time and
be well everyone.
858
00:37:47,080 -->
00:37:49,880
Thanks for spending time in
the Commons on the Forward Ed Network.
859
00:37:50,280 -->
00:37:53,080
You've been listening to
Modern Grading Reform, a miniseries
860
00:37:53,080 -->
00:37:54,940
with Dr. Chad Lang and Dr.
Matt Townsend.
861
00:37:55,650 -->
00:37:59,050
Honest conversations,
practical insights and better communication
862
00:37:59,050 -->
00:37:59,730
about learning.
863
00:38:00,050 -->
00:38:02,650
Join us for the next episode
and find even more on the Forward
864
00:38:02,650 -->
00:38:03,330
Ed Network.
