Speaker 1 (00:00)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast. Who are the invisible people of music today and what do they do to make music happen? Because behind every great artist, song, venue, festival and music service there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight and then there's everybody else.
What was that podcast you guys did recently? Did you guys do a podcast? yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:27)
That was Bumming with Bob, Bum Wine Bobcat, where he talks about all the low shelf drinks. We were obviously on there to talk about hams and the new.
Speaker 1 (00:42)
many times as he talked about hams.
Speaker 2 (00:45)
⁓ on our episode, about a hundred cheers, love you.
Speaker 1 (00:51)
but he hasn't talked about that beer before on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:54)
He has. He definitely has because that's how I found him when I was doing my initial what is the hams universe look like he was a part of it you know as far as I was probably looking for hashtags or something like that on Instagram. I mean he probably
Speaker 1 (01:10)
part
of the universe like he's a commentator
Speaker 2 (01:13)
Yeah, yeah, he knows what's up understands understands the vibe understands the person the value of the lower. Yeah, the low shelf. Yes, the alcohol percentage probably knows a lot about it. 4.5 last time I checked. Could be either 4.5 or 4.2 or 4.7. But I think it's 4.5. We can do the fact check.
Speaker 1 (01:19)
the value of beer.
It was the alcohol percentage.
Okay, that's pretty good.
Okay, okay.
We don't yeah our fact checkers sick today, so we'll have to fact check it ourselves later Yeah, that's perfect You know I just like as I was like thinking about this like preparing for this I was thinking about it's it's hard to separate you as as a Music business person from your project at with the chugs
Speaker 2 (01:49)
Let's just say it's 4.5 then.
Speaker 1 (02:13)
However, I do think that they are two different things. I think when you're on stage or when you're in the studio, you're creative, but when you're not in those places or when you're not in those environments, you are like, you're like a music business person, right? You're a release strategist, you're a manager kinda, you're a booker. So I think that, but I think that of everything that's happened in the last year,
Or more, with the music, with the project, I think that there's a lot to unpack about what the fuck just happened and what's even gonna happen next. I don't know, but...
Speaker 2 (02:54)
I love asking myself those two questions. think that's the whole point of doing anything, is to ask those two questions.
Speaker 1 (03:02)
It must mean that there's stuff happening. Yeah, because you're like gotta right, but I'm curious like when it comes to ⁓ How you view your role at Wally Opus or even in the chugs? How would you describe it? How would you define what you do like what you're interested in what you do most of the time? Because I feel like there's something there's there's like a there's a role. There's like something in there
Speaker 2 (03:25)
Yeah, I guess my whole goal for anything I do has been a reaction, I guess. I think it's maybe like I've always I have always wanted a little bit of attention, I guess. I can admit that. And I think that whenever I'm a
whether I'm focusing on music for a niche audience that I know will resonate with it, or I'm like creating a marketing campaign for people who will be targeted and add for that stuff, I want a reaction. I'm really interested in people's reaction from anything. I mean, I'm a people watcher. just like seeing how people engage in where they put their energy, especially if it's something that I make, because I can reflect on it be like, shit, that was something that I did that made someone interact.
made them feel something at all, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:21)
funny because you do that in real life. mean you like prod people to get them to react to something. It's funny to apply that to marketing or promotion of a song. I think that you're always thinking about ways to engage, ways to share things. You're like, this platform just did this, this platform just did that. Do you think that comes from your experience?
when you're day job being in marketing? does that come from like, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:54)
I do, I do. I remember, god it was probably 2008 or whatever when MySpace was happening. It actually, it would have been before then. the only reason I ever made a MySpace page and then also from then learned how to like make div overlays and then from there make a website was to make a website for my band because I didn't want to pay anyone to do it. You know? Like I think it all kind of started there with that marriage of the two sides of the
Like of the coin right the business world and the art world knowing that you have to marry him to really get anywhere Yeah
Speaker 1 (05:32)
It's funny because now that is, it's, you know, the chugs are such an example of like that you guys are an outlier because I would think as a punk band, it's not cool to like post about, uh, Apple editorials or like being on a record label even. don't know. It's, it's almost like you're like the, like the antithesis. Yeah. Like the anti-punk band, punk band, but, but it.
I don't know, but you guys are all from the marketing world. Like every one of you is in web development or, it's like ingrained in who you are.
Speaker 2 (06:10)
Right. Yeah, I think that it's, it is important to do things that other people aren't doing. I mean, I think that, ⁓ like you said, there, there's not a bunch of punk bands that are going to be talking about all like the accolades they get or whatever, because it, it is seen as probably not cool or whatever, but it's also, you know, coming from that world too.
There's a shitload of work that goes on the other side of people even deciding to pick us for anything. So I want to be able to give them the attention that they deserve for distributors, promoters, curators, bloggers. Anyone giving us attention did not have to. And I think that it's really important to know that ⁓
Speaker 1 (06:49)
you talking about like promoter distributor
Speaker 2 (07:06)
they also respect it whenever you notice that. I think that's part of the DIY ethos that's in the punk world is understanding that you do need to do everything to be able to appreciate it when someone else does it for you. And then I think you should be able to come forward and let everyone else know, hey, look, this person did work for me.
Speaker 1 (07:34)
Yeah, it's funny too how far a thank you will go. in a in a I mean This is something that several people have talked about on the podcast Just in the roles of behind the scenes of music like working behind the scenes of music is it could be a thankless job Even though it's it's a crucial job. It's like fundamental for maybe putting on an event or whatever it might be But you know saying thank you because but I think if you've not done that work, you actually have no idea
how much somebody's putting into, whether it's pitching your stuff or even like making a marketing doc or like posting about you on socials. You think about how long it takes sometimes to make a damn social post. It takes sometimes half a
Speaker 2 (08:18)
yeah, for sure. Well, and that's just, you know, for one or two platforms that allow for that specific ratio and ⁓ type of media, right? Yes. ⁓ But ultimately, I that's why this podcast exists, right? Is to shine light on the people who don't get thanked as often as they should, probably. Yeah. Where, I mean...
Speaker 1 (08:39)
And what's funny is because they're packed full of the real juicy information about what is actually going on here. I was just thinking about that yesterday about like, what's the point of the podcast really in the essence of it? And I think it's, it's, yeah, to shine a light on them, but it's also like think about how much you can learn from somebody who every single day is like in and out of venues or, ⁓
you know, in and out of a marketing office or a music distributor, like how much to them is normal for Apple editorials, Spotify editorials, charting, or being on these giant stages and these huge PA systems, like how normal it is to them, but to somebody who doesn't know about it or who just dreams of what it would be like to actually hear it about like what it really takes or like what's the reality of it.
can be so like illuminating and either like turn you completely off or turn you completely on like that's what I want to do like that's badass you know yeah and I even think like shining a light on the this is why I wanted to have you on is like shining a light on like you're seen as an artist but there's a whole other side of you that people don't even know that exists it's not like this all just came you know like it's all just like bubbled up like you guys work your ass off
Speaker 2 (09:45)
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (10:03)
on your marketing and like you do so much on your social like you just do so much that that people it's almost like I have this graphic on my laptop that's this big ass like iceberg and then there's a line and it says like all the work I do and then all the work people see and it's just this little blip right think that's like pretty true
Speaker 2 (10:20)
⁓
It is I would say that There's no way it's more than 10 to 15 percent of my energy that goes into the chugs is like or all of our energy is like making the music, know, most of it is ⁓ business stuff whether that's getting stuff like ready for sync placements figuring out like release dates ⁓ and networking and like you said, yeah everything in between and then we get
to then make music afterward, which is, think, a very important thing for all artists to be able to understand, right? It is very much a luxury to be able to have that 15 % to be able to go all out and make the music that you want to hear. But in order to do that, you probably do need to spend 85 % of it working to get to the point where you're allowed to do the rest creatively.
Speaker 1 (10:51)
Yes.
Yeah, which is interesting because like the way you guys have set it up is you basically do all of the work when you're not together. Like all of that other work when you're not together. The website, the socials, a lot of that's when you're not together. All the editing, all the emailing. Then when you're together, you're either practicing, making music, recording videos, content. ⁓ What else are you doing? Merch stuff sometimes?
Speaker 2 (11:47)
booking a lot of it is booking conversations as well. ⁓ You know when you can do this because it yeah that's that's something that you that it could be a full-time job or is for a lot of people right I mean yeah but whenever you're a small band it is definitely takes a lot of the a lot of the time
Speaker 1 (12:05)
Well it's interesting because like you don't like but you you've you've like accepted the reality of being an artist in 2025 looks like this You guys never complain you guys don't the one act That I know who doesn't complain about the world like you don't complain about the environment like or like that I Mean you might bitch about the you might bitch about the environment. I don't know, but I just mean like the
Speaker 2 (12:31)
We hate the environment. It's good to litter. Put your hams canes in the dirt, Barry, and we actually just did that though. We really did just do that. Yeah, we did a time capsule when we were doing the shoot for our next ⁓ release.
Speaker 1 (12:49)
But you know what I'm saying though? It's like you guys don't, you're not, it's again like actually kind of inside punk, but you're not like pissed off at the world or the like, like fuck all the, like the way it is for musicians. You guys just do stuff. You just work. You just act. You take action. You just do stuff. You don't sit there and talk about stuff and think about stuff. you know what I'm saying? Like from like a, you just do it.
Speaker 2 (13:14)
Yeah, well, I think there are a couple things at play there where one we're all older now and been doing it for like 20 years So I think we did have those years in us as you know 14 to 17 year olds. Yeah, and then once you realize what it Takes I mean in that like maybe you don't have it right now or maybe you there are other obstacles at play and understanding the reality of the situation that it isn't just
You don't just write a song and then get famous and then make music for the rest of your life. That's just not how it works. hasn't for anyone that I know anyway. But it's that. It's just like understand. It's like been doing it for 20 years and not expecting anything. Because I think expectations is also what ruins the creative process too. It's like you make what you want to make and then like.
What happens after that is the ⁓ what the fuck just happened like you were saying and that part is really exciting to me if I have like a goal of like I'm gonna write the song for this person then like Okay, then they end up liking it and you're like, yeah. Well, that's what you were like trying to do. Anyway, so who gives a fucking shit I don't know. It doesn't I just don't think you can I think that you can have and should have goals General goals, but I think that
like whenever you're making music and then being pissed off that it wasn't taken a certain way, I think that that is ⁓ a rough life to have. Because then why do want to keep making music after that? Yes. I don't know. But so going along with that too is that the chugs I think have really ⁓ been the most, it's something that all three of us like to play. It's a genre that we all enjoy and we all just like hanging out and we are all
in agreement about a lot of things. Like we've all grew up liking genres that, where you just weren't gonna make it anyway. I ⁓ mean, you know, Grip listened to lot of like math core or like experimental music and we all kind of did that. And none of those bands got any big, got big and they were like, my idols are very approachable people, you know, like I'll drive an hour and go drink a beer with them. And I love them more than anyone else in the world. You know what I mean?
So like our viewpoint of success is skewed from that being the point of success, right? Like that is, Best Case Scenario is a punk band that 500 people know about. You know what I mean? So like, I don't really know what getting big looks like, because I don't really have a bunch of history of liking bands that are that huge. And not saying that they're bad by any means, it's just something that I didn't really grow up with.
I grew up with like small success, that's sort of probably.
Speaker 1 (15:59)
Yeah, I mean you mentioned yeah, like if you would have been into pop singers or like ⁓ Big country acts growing up you would think yeah, we we're gonna get big when we play stadiums to play arenas See, but that's not even an expectation for this genre
Speaker 2 (16:12)
Right.
No, yeah, mean, just, you know, the best times of growing up was when I would go see like the Chariot and seven or eight people would be there and then we'd all just be like going crazy and they would too. it's just like, you know, simultaneously from their perspective, well, not their perspective, you know, they don't need 500 people to have a good time at a show playing with their friends and the kids who are watching them.
don't need 500 people headbanging with them. And it's like, I view that same thing. Like if I'm playing a punctual, like, don't, I'm going to market the piss out of it to see who, to try to get people to go there so that the venue can make some money. But I'm not necessarily concerned if there's a hundred people or just one. I mean, I have just as much fun practicing.
Speaker 1 (17:03)
And playing with your bandmates with literally one other person running around on stage. But there's a hundred people there running around on stage. What's interesting because you guys prioritize feeling good, having fun, ⁓ being nice to people. You prioritize things that a good person would prioritize, I think. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:29)
And what's funny is, the idea of not having an expectation, that's really interesting because then it, if you just, if you made the music and then you had all this pressure around it that it had to be something, then it has to be something. Like the song itself has to be something. But when you're free to just create, which is ultimately the state of great creation is just freedom to just express yourself. But you guys give yourself constraints.
themes, you have a sound, you only have hours to record. You have very strict limitations, but the pressure's not there to be something else. It's just, it is what it is. But then, as soon as you leave there, that's when the work starts. Then you're doing all the other work that most people expect somebody else to come do.
Speaker 2 (18:26)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:28)
How is that gonna be? I maybe that is gonna happen, but maybe but I don't know I mean probably not I can say you doing it first and somebody coming along be like can I help?
Speaker 2 (18:34)
Yeah. Right.
But I like doing all that stuff. I mean, I've all I well, for example, like with the ⁓ canvases for Spotify, you know, I spent probably 100 or so hours doing those just, you know, because it's also like, this is a reason for me to be able to make stop motion graphics, which is another thing I'm just an interest of yours. Yeah. I just think if you're looking at it positively, everything can be fun.
Like I know, like I said earlier, even if only 15 % of it is actually making music, there's so much potentially valuable and satisfying work in that like 85%, you just have to like think positive about it and then do it. know, like make whatever you fucking want. Like what is not cool about doing whatever you want? Like putting it in the parameters of professionalism.
I get off on that because it feels like crazier to me. know, like I like emailing professional people talking about our band that just makes music about hams because I feel like it's maybe somewhat invasive or something and I like that. I don't know. There's always a way to frame what you're doing, the work that you're doing into something positive and ⁓ valuable instead of being like, fuck, I got a post, God damn it. Or, you know, that type of shit.
Speaker 1 (19:58)
I know, what's the alternative to not do it and then what? I mean, okay, yes, you don't have to post it, like that's fine. But if getting it heard or having some commercial success is on your ambition radar, then doing what you have to do today, like if you guys, if we rewind the clock 40 or 50 years and there was no social media,
Speaker 2 (20:03)
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:25)
you would have to be doing the other things of the day, which I'm sure would require you guys to travel all the effin' time if you really wanted to be a successful band. You'd be playing gigs almost every night. You'd be having to do all these other things, but I think that's what's so cool about even where you guys are at is having conversations around other areas of making music, or making money through the music that are unconventional and that are actually paying for the project.
while you still keep your day jobs, it's like the project is funding itself though through these alternative revenue streams, which that's why it's so exciting about 2025 is I know that the stability of the music industry is kind of shaken up here and just like the world is kind of shaken up here with instability, but like the opportunity to do things your own way is so open and so like at your fingertips literally.
And I know that, and I'm curious to get into this a little bit with you, with the Chugs, you guys have had some interesting opportunities bubble up around sync, whether that's for some local show or DIY films or small films that are being made, but then also podcasts. Like what the hell is this? You know what I mean? So how did these opportunities come about for you?
Speaker 2 (21:53)
you
guys. ⁓
Like communicating well because that's what everyone wants is quick concise communication from the artist because they don't want to fuck around even if like it is punk music that they don't It's not cool anymore. Once you're like not responding to emails and a bunch of shit like that, right? It's you still just you got to keep up like constant contact with people ⁓ Network just ask people things. I mean that gets you pretty far
Creatively as well because you never know what someone else needs or will need in the next like two years There are plenty of people that I talked to that we're going to do stuff with in the future. That doesn't make sense right now Yeah, but you know you keep the conversation going and then it is going to happen Yeah, you know ⁓ and I think those that's how those deals fall into place to is like understanding your worth ⁓ You know monetarily as well, yeah, and then
Speaker 1 (22:51)
It's like a huge step to even get to a place where you feel like ⁓ I am worthy of charging money for my art.
Speaker 2 (22:59)
Yeah, it is difficult and I do think that it is easier as a band because like you have more people to ⁓ Talk to about this. Yeah, you know like with my solo stuff. It's harder because it's my I The art is coming from like one place. Whereas, you know, whenever you have you You know, uh-huh, but if you have a group of you know three to
Speaker 1 (23:17)
is like, what, there's no value in that? Like, I just did it. Like, it's not, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:25)
six people doing something, there's going to be someone who you can bounce ideas off of and like, well that actually that price actually is like way too low. I was thinking 2k for this or wow, they're never going to say yes to that. I was thinking 300 or free for exposure, you know, and those are the conversations that I think are good. Yeah, but it helps you understand that those conversations need to happen. Right. And then from there you can just keep building.
those, in our case, sync placements where you kind of know your value, you know what people need, you know what they're looking for. ⁓ And it also just frankly helps that Scott is the one who makes all of our music.
Speaker 1 (24:06)
That's true, yes, your bandmate has the ability to kick you ⁓ instrumentals, system music, yes, yeah. can start from scratch on a song that kind of sounds like the song we just put out.
Speaker 2 (24:13)
Yes.
Which again goes back to the whole DIY thing where it just find the work that is that makes you happy and and do that within within the music world and then you don't have to pay for as much. You know we didn't pay for a website. didn't pay for our songs to be done. We didn't. We don't pay for socials or marketing. ⁓ You know it's like because we do them. And at the same time.
If someone else helps us, really understand that it's great and we get very excited about it. And that's why we share all of our shit because it's like, there's no, you don't make it anywhere alone. You just don't. I think that it's very, I think it's the right thing to do to say thank you to everyone who's helped you in any way, whether that's texting people who like, you know, went to your show. They didn't have to fucking pay $10 on a Tuesday night.
Speaker 1 (25:02)
Alone,
Dude that part is so like you think about like most people's lives. They're so fucking busy Yeah, if they have any sort of responsibility Yeah, they're not like to make it out to an event or to drive across town is an investment It is maybe they even have to find a babysitter or they got to do this. They're gonna spend 60 bucks Not just like, know deny the ⁓ it's all this shit It's just like it's so much or if they buy a piece of merch or buy a vinyl. It's like
Speaker 2 (25:37)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:45)
It's such a big deal that it's interesting, because even if you had a show that like 20 people came out to, to think like, fuck, what was that?
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My record label, Wally Opus Records, distributes all of our releases through Symphonic. And Symphonic not only provides us with DSP delivery, with editorial pitching to all major streaming platforms, with marketing support on social media and other areas, they also provide us with the hands-on interaction that is absent from so many.
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global punk charts. We have Symphonic to thank and of course the Chugs supporters, their fans who went out and bought the record on iTunes helped boost it to number one. But anyways, if you use the code word at checkout, everybody else, you can receive 25 % off your first year of a Symphonic starter pack. Again, that is code word everybody else at checkout to get yourself 25 % off your first year of a starter pack with Symphonic.
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It's 20 people.
Speaker 2 (28:13)
That's
$200 in circulation. And we are very lucky to have people who come to our shows more than once. That's insane to me. I love it because we're all very thankful because that money, however many times they've seen us, plus whatever drinks they buy. Yeah. it's like, is, I mean, those people are the ones keeping
Speaker 1 (28:15)
About ten bucks.
it's a thing now.
Bye.
Speaker 2 (28:42)
all bands alive are the ones that continue to go to the shows and like they are definitely helping everyone's musical business whether they realize it or not you know. ⁓
Speaker 1 (28:53)
But you know going back a second I was just thinking it's funny like you guys didn't set out to do Like you're talking about sink you didn't set out to be a sink band It was just there there seemed to be a pattern unfolding here recently And I think this is so important like this is why I feel like I'm talking to artists a lot about it's just like well Let's talk about like what is working or what is bubbling up that you're aware of?
Instead of keeping blinders on, no, we have to be, like a punk band plays at a lot of shows. We have to play a lot of shows. But you told me that a couple weeks ago, you're like, look, the reality of situation is, like with our circumstances as a band, us being, know, two of you have kids, you all have day jobs, you all have houses, like we have responsibilities. We can't tour like the other punk bands that we play with sometimes or that of the past.
We have to find other ways of doing things and there's this thing that keeps bubbling up. It's called sync. And then I think that this is like, but you didn't set out that, but now that it's on the radar, you're spending a ton of time investing in getting your catalog all sorted, getting everything up in a ⁓ clean, cohesive, one stop shop. It's like you're building, but this is what's beautiful about what you guys are doing and I think this is what we've done the whole time with Wally Opus too is just,
oh, now this is a thing? Now we're gonna build that part of the business or of the brand or of the thing. Like, oh, let's focus on that now. I think it started here with just like a studio, probably, or getting some equipment and then a studio and then it was like, okay, let's record, we need music, right? What's next? Now we gotta figure out how to get it out there. And it's never really like a cohesive step-by-step.
But it is step by step, you know, but it's not really like it wasn't really like a game But you make the plan as you go, you
Speaker 2 (30:49)
NO!
That's
exactly what I mean about like the what the fuck was that or it's like that. Okay What and then what happens next? Yeah, like you never know But I think the willing willingness to pivot is so crucial because everything Changes now, you know, it's like Well, yes Spotify now announcing that like, you know next week Everyone's gonna be able like DM their songs to everyone like that's gonna be a huge game changer I mean every six months or so. There's a huge ⁓ like
marketing obstacle or ⁓ gateway. exactly. it's that change is same with music, same with like every project you're in, there's going to be those weird chances and just fucking take them because you don't know. And we, I will say have a ⁓ little bit of padding because we're like half like a comedy band to a degree. So we're like we can sort of
take those risks that other people may be like more afraid to but like if it's funny then it's also fine. Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:51)
But like we, I know we talked about this the other day, but I think what's interesting about being where you guys are is what I've been able to witness this year alone is that, because I'm seeing like multiple projects unfold simultaneously just within my role, within the label, as management, as coach now, like I can see all these things unfolding. And from the inside, and I use the Chugs as an example so often now about
Handful of things but like saying thank you Sharing the shit out of everything because I keep thinking about this idea that like in five years Fucking a year in two three five years ten years Nobody's gonna nobody's gonna know any of this happened. It's just gonna be part of the story No different than like when you were on myspace I'm sure there were bands there were bands at the time were blowing up on myspace who even knows what they were posting
No one knows, we know that some of them now have gone on to play, know, maybe they're huge bands now that blew up on MySpace. ⁓ MGMT, that's a band that blew up on MySpace, I think. And they were just college kids. But you think about, it's like, you see this band headlining a festival now, they don't have to post everything. They are gonna get in all the editorials, and they are gonna get these giant, like, festival slots. They're gonna have user-generated content on the internet flooding.
flooding their presence all across the internet. They don't have to do it. But in the early days, nobody else is gonna do it except you. And then maybe, maybe somebody's gonna come along and nudge you along the way whenever you're ready and whenever things align and then someone nudges you and then, you know, perhaps. Perhaps not, you know, yeah. Perhaps you actually have to build the damn thing and be out loud. But I just think that
Speaker 2 (33:34)
Hey.
Speaker 1 (33:47)
It's taught me so much about being vocal about what's going on, sharing that stuff with the distributor, sharing like with Symphonic or Distributor, sharing all of that stuff with them, getting feedback from them, sharing all of this stuff on socials, getting feedback from socials. It's just like the project is alive. It's not just sitting there waiting on something to come save it, you know?
Speaker 2 (34:06)
Yeah.
I think there's also a, we just also like to see the fruits of our label labels. I guess that too, pun intended. But, ⁓ and ⁓ we also just like to work hard and like everything that we get is if it's a product of what we do, it's that much more exciting than like if we're waiting, then it's still cool if something happens, but it's not as cool if we can tie it back to, we spent.
75 hours doing this and look what we got from it, you know? Yes. ⁓
Speaker 1 (34:44)
Yeah,
so so I'm curious like if you were if you were a 20 year old in a band today You were starting out like see it. So you guys are pretty Scott recorded the record pretty good
Speaker 2 (34:54)
Okay.
Is
Scott still 40? Is it still free?
Speaker 1 (35:01)
Yeah, yeah, he's not a fan.
yeah, okay, it can be free. Yeah, but it's good. It's good. He didn't like cut any corners. It's good. Okay. All right. But and you don't have you don't have very much money really you have 150 bucks. What money man? It is when you're 20 maybe. What would you do? What would you focus on today? If you were just getting started? Like what would you focus on to start building your project out in the world? Where would you begin?
Speaker 2 (35:07)
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:29)
The music's done.
Speaker 2 (35:30)
Do all the social networks still exist? Yeah. I'm current environment. ⁓ So I still hate the environment. littering, as we all should. ⁓ I really have always loved guerrilla marketing. I did that when I was 20 from other bands, and it did really work. And then I pivoted to digital, but I'm really craving the organic.
Speaker 1 (35:32)
You're in current. ⁓ You're 20, but you're in current environment.
Speaker 2 (35:59)
guerrilla marketing stuff and I do think that it and I would tell I would say real world like we got a billboard we got some videos of us underneath the billboard and that yeah you got like literally did that yes yeah we got some banners made ⁓ it's just or like handing out stuff in the streets putting out signs in the streets people are used to seeing a bunch of stuff online now but they're not
Speaker 1 (36:03)
works.
You mean like in the real world?
Just
Speaker 2 (36:28)
really used to the organic methods of advertising and marketing anymore because most people say blast everything on TikTok, which I'm not saying you shouldn't, but like coming at it from both angles is the way to go, I think. It's also-
Speaker 1 (36:45)
Sorry real quick. It's funny because doing that stuff in the real world gives you something to post about online. That's This is such a good I think when people don't know what to post it's like go do something Yeah, and film it and share that uh-huh and then whatever happens there go tell somebody else in the real world Hey, I got all these followers. Can I play at your bar right now use that footage to get the next gate? It's like yeah, just like build the relationship between the two worlds
Speaker 2 (36:50)
Yeah, exactly. This is a twofer.
Yeah, well also just as reach decreases generally across all social platforms. Yeah, it hasn't Necessarily changed in the real world You can still go up to someone and give them a fucking cassette if you want or give them a flyer or anything or stickers or Anything honestly and like well there you go There's in real life engagement that you know you would have paid $15 for for meta. It's just Take 20 minutes and do something outside with your project
And yeah, also I think just building venue connections is still one of the most important things. Speaking just like for a punk side of things, I really truly don't know other than that if you're not playing live a lot. I don't know, but I always have and that was always something that I was interested in. And I think it still stands today. I don't know if a lot has changed besides it back 20 years to being.
organic and guerrilla marketing and that kind of shit again, especially with the emergence of AI and how either everyone's using it or everyone hates it. And it's like, well, one way to combat that is just like make it obvious that it's fucking not. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:25)
I think that's why I saw somebody tell me this recently. It's like the less produced that your video is ⁓ It's almost like it's like more like people are watching more less produced videos that they will watch like produced videos Because they know well, this is real That's right. Why cringe is such a Big big thing, right? Yeah, because we know
Speaker 2 (38:41)
Right.
just big yeah uh-huh I love it
Speaker 1 (38:49)
That's true irony. can't think of something like No. AI could not make something this bad or this funny. Like it just, it's too human. It's too real. Resifory, it's like, can't watch this shit. like now it's really enjoyable to see somebody just being a human being, stumbling around or just, you know, using these tools and coming up with just crazy shit that. Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:57)
You'll... Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, I think that is just being human as you know, I think that's the most important part too Just like even whenever you're performing on stage Just you know, let the crowd in on it. Let everyone be a part of the experience. They also fucking paid to be there Like you don't need to act like you're I've always I guess I've always viewed if I'm on stage I view myself as a clown not necessarily like hey you have to be funny, but in a way of like
You're the fucking entertainment. You're here for people. You fucking make them happy. This is not about, I mean...
Speaker 1 (39:48)
It's about us, it's not just about me.
Is that too, it's a fine line. It's a really fine line between this is about us, all of us, or this is about me showing you something, how great I am. Because even like a really good, I don't even know, fuck, I was just thinking like a juggler or something on America's Got Talent. Like even somebody who's just a really great performer, you're with them. You're not separate from, you're in awe of them, but you're watching them, but you're connected.
Speaker 2 (39:59)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:20)
It's not just them displaying performance. Right. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:26)
And I think one of the things I love about punk is that it allows for the gap to be eliminated completely. Whereas, you know, I'm not up there doing a concerto where someone can come up and go, like with the strings and then piss everybody off. for example, last show, some dude came up and kind of like just, I...
I gave him a drumstick and he just hit some cymbals with me, right? And it was just like, that's fucking fine at a punk show. And that guy was happy. And it's like that he paid money to be here. He deserves to smash a cymbal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:06)
⁓ my god. I just- Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:09)
I don't know, we're essentially a karaoke project for our own music, you know what mean? This is how I view us and I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:20)
I mean, it's the most like, even like when I'm there, I just feel like a different side of me comes out of the Chug Show. Like with the The End of the Night, I have the microphone, I'm singing the songs to, know, or I'm just yelling. just, like a part of me comes out that does not come out at other shows at all.
Speaker 2 (41:40)
Well, I think I do think we have some self-awareness right about like we're not trying to change the world We make it music. Yeah, we make music about a beer that is and should be loved by everyone. Yes Because of how welcoming it is. It's Yeah, Yeah, so low and I think that we occupy that I you know that is our goal speaking of goals from earlier is to occupy that space as a band is to be the hams beer of
the punk world, you know? welcoming space that not very high expectation, but you have a great time once you're there.
Speaker 1 (42:18)
Wow dude, that's actually, but also like legendary. Just like that.
Speaker 2 (42:24)
Legendary,
We've been around since 1865.
Speaker 1 (42:29)
Not that you guys can like claim the legendary but like eventually you can I guess but like but it's amazing just to think like yeah, that's such a good Just like position to take as the band. It's like, yeah, we're we're only 1999 at Target for 30 pack that analogy but in the world or in the context of being a band Yeah, but you also are quality consistent quality
Speaker 2 (42:55)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:56)
I don't know, like this is like a, they're forever, yeah. Not available everywhere, but available for anybody who can get it. Yeah, that's great. So I'm curious, going back to like workflow, I think a lot of people are, I just did a reel on this recently, ⁓ but about like quitting their day jobs. People are obsessed with quitting their day jobs. But it seems to me from outside looking in, like you guys,
Speaker 2 (43:10)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (43:25)
all have day jobs and families, and you're actually one of the more consistent and productive acts that I know personally, what do you think life would be like if you didn't have day jobs?
Speaker 2 (43:39)
I think that we would all suck at time management. I think it's crucial to be able to plan, not that you have to plan, but to be able to plan every minute of your day if you can. If you have something that needs to be done. like for example, like at work, mean, I'll work at the office for the first half, I'll go home and for like the next, like during lunch, I'll probably spend like 45 minutes doing something that I have to get done.
music wise and then I'll get back on and work the rest of the day and then depending on like what shows on the TV or what or who's at whatever place I might make music, might ⁓ develop another marketing strategy, I might write songs, you know what mean? It's just all about what are you doing this minute and like is it being, are you being productive for what you want to be doing? Not saying you have to work out or anything or like, you know, but
If you're there and you're like almost bored, could be doing something for your band.
Speaker 1 (44:44)
that kind of eliminates boredom.
Speaker 2 (44:46)
It has for me. It has for me. Like I don't get bored. like, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (44:51)
Actually, cause like not that boredom's a bad thing even. I think there's a space for boredom to create like, I don't know, something. stuff comes out of boredom. Like when you're just sitting there sometimes I feel like ideas will come out. But like you show up for your life when everything is like, when you have to show, like when you literally have to be present as a dad, then as, then for your job and then for your band. you are on in all of these areas. And it just like keeps you.
you're always then producing something, you're always coming up with who's doing the work.
Speaker 2 (45:30)
Well yeah, because I mean I know if I have two hours to do something that usually takes more than that. I'm gonna spend every second of that two hours to knock it out, right? And then you get a lot more done than you think that way. you know, I mean I just, don't really watch, I guess I watch TV at night sometimes, but even when I'm watching I'm like studying it. You know, I'm like thinking about it or thinking about how did they get.
Speaker 1 (45:56)
that.
Speaker 2 (45:57)
Yeah, what's the place? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (46:00)
I bet that took forever to get that shot right thing
Speaker 2 (46:04)
Right,
yeah, so just planning, I mean, it's not like sexy to do that, I guess, but it also is how you get everything done that you need to as being deadline driven and, I, not like true deadline, but you know, okay, I have 30 minutes, I'm going to do this for this 30 minutes. Yeah. You know, instead of just being like, I don't know what to do. Yeah. You know, just, I think one way to combat that too, though, is to have a lot of things on your plate.
Because if you have 15 things that you need to do, they don't all take the same amount of time. And if you have this 30 minute time, then you can pick of the 15 things. Drop it in there. OK, that one thing's done. Now I have 14 things left to do. then, you know what saying?
Speaker 1 (46:50)
I mean, but it's amazing how much you can't get done when you don't have a whole lot of time to do things because I mean, this is, know, my coach Nikki talks about this. She's like, things will take the allotted time that you give them. So if you're like, hey, it's gonna take me another year to finish my album, you can guarantee you that it's gonna take a year. But if you say, gotta get this record done in like a week and a half, you will somehow create the time
Speaker 2 (47:10)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (47:19)
and it will come forth that you actually hit this deadline. what's funny, it's probably gonna be better than the year and a half one that you were thinking about making, because you were thinking about making it. But it keeps you from entering this place of overthinking or ⁓ stagnation or hesitation because you have responsibilities. You can't not pick your kid up from school. You literally have to go get them at four, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2 (47:28)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:48)
that you have to work for 30 minutes, then you have to leave to go get that. But I think it's a misconception for a lot of older, I say older artists, artists in their 20s or 30s, like late 20s into their 30s, who think that having kids, it definitely changes life. But it's been a huge benefit for me, just in terms of being a better person and creating time boundaries.
Speaker 2 (48:12)
For sure, same here.
Speaker 1 (48:18)
It's made me way-
Speaker 2 (48:19)
being a better team member for whoever else is in your band too, like just understand. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ Respect.
Speaker 1 (48:25)
elaborate
them, respecting their time versus like it's such a thing with young bands too that like if you're not all the way in this, like if you're not willing to die for the band it is not it's not gonna work right even though we're not doing it like why would you do a fucking sit in the basement like what are we doing then you have to be here
Speaker 2 (48:35)
Yeah.
You have to be here. We'll kill you right now. That's why they have all those knives in the basement all the time. Ready to go.
Speaker 1 (48:53)
Yeah,
but yeah, think it's a, I think just, I use you guys as an example. Yeah, the benefit of having responsibility is that your time is very valuable. Spend it valuably. Which I don't think everybody, I think people think it's gonna be a drag, or like getting a day job, I'm not gonna be able to think about it. Like work on my music, having kids, I'm not gonna be able to like tour and do all these things. Which is true, it's gonna change things.
Speaker 2 (48:58)
for thank you.
Yeah. Yes, 100%.
But at the same time, like, when you have, like, I don't personally want to spend 200 days on the road because I want to be by my kids as well, right? Yeah. You know, I want to ⁓ play a couple shows a month and then do ⁓ runs periodically throughout the year, you know, five-day runs throughout the year, but like, I don't, I don't want to be away from them for three months.
They're young, they're growing every day, it's just like that's what I value more than just being around doing that. And that is still a valuable thing for lot of people, and I do get value from it, but you gotta pick and choose and plan accordingly. And that's sort of where the business part of it, us meeting up every Wednesday and talking about booking stuff and figuring out what makes sense and what doesn't. It's so crucial to be picky and choosy about everything that you do.
Speaker 1 (50:15)
What's funny is it's going to, in my opinion, it's going to increase the value of you guys over time because like you're actually hard to get. You're not like that, not right now necessarily, but you're gonna be.
Speaker 2 (50:28)
I love that idea of us being hard to get.
Speaker 1 (50:31)
And it's not because of anything, they're just like, no, we only have like...
Speaker 2 (50:35)
Yeah, we just don't have any time to do that. Yeah. huh. Yes.
Speaker 1 (50:38)
Yeah, but we could be there if we're open You know, but
I think that it just I don't know I think it's a there's a there's a lot to the benefit of having it like it III I talk about this sometimes but like I saw a thing of Elliot a video of Elliott Smith talking about how you know when he was he was more productive when he had his day job because he would write songs and record at night and then go to work, I think was working construction or something and
He would think about his songs and he would come home and continue working on them. And he's like, but when I, when I stopped working like a day job, I just had so much time. I just like thought about the music, you know, I just, I think that it, just creates a, don't know. It just creates too, it's just too much time. Unless you're really fucking busy and you're really successful. And I'm sure you're like, I can't get enough time. you have the other, that's like a different problem.
Speaker 2 (51:25)
For sure.
problem.
like, yeah, even whenever you're, you know, we're going to pick up our kids from school, you can spend the 20 minutes that you're driving there to listen to mixes or call somebody. Yeah, figure, you know, do business that way and or, you know, listen to a podcast about what you want to happen like a sync licensing podcast or artist management podcast or something like that, you know, I still view that as productive. I mean, learning on the way, right? I mean, you're not making the music or you're not
But you're developing yourself along that tangent. ⁓
Speaker 1 (52:09)
And
what's there's no more humbling feeling than thinking like you've really done something amazing and then your kid like Comes down and pushes like a button on the damn interface and clips the like the project shuts then the files are corrupted And I flip out and then I say sorry. I'm sorry flipped out, but you can't touch the damn interface. I told you this 18 times
Speaker 2 (52:32)
For the listeners out there, it was actually me who did that earlier and Wes has blamed me on his child. Yeah, that's his way of calling me a child. Which I am, I guess.
Speaker 1 (52:37)
Real piss.
That's why I got so pissed. I should have like, child. So what are you looking forward to? What excites you about music? What do you think about a lot? What do you dream about when it comes to music or when it comes to the label or the chugs or just your own creativity? What are you looking out ahead at?
Speaker 2 (52:46)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:08)
Do you look at?
Speaker 2 (53:09)
I do look out, but I think I look out, ⁓
Not too far out because I think that distracts me from what I'm like doing right now. I really love, I've always just like kind of loved where I was at, which makes me like appreciate the next step a little bit more, you know, like right now I'm super excited about the release of Eternal Brutopia and the next stuff we have coming out in a few months. then ⁓ with the Swamp Eyes is getting started. I'm like, like you said, finding time to lay down some like,
drum and guitar tracks, like during lunches and that type of shit. I'm excited about all the new people on the label releasing a bunch of stuff and as well as like all the network that we're building. But yeah, so it's hard for me to say I'm excited about this because I am like welcoming a lot that's coming to me and I'm very excited when those things happen, you know? That seems to be how I'm most happy is like just working hard and then being surprised by what comes from it.
Yeah, and I it feels like that just keeps happening and I'm like very excited to keep doing that forever. that's saying it. don't I have no idea like what success generally looks like but that feels like Successful to me me getting those jolts of like fuck. Yeah, that's awesome. You know
Speaker 1 (54:30)
It's you're one of the most present people I've ever met like you're you're fully present with all the people that you're with I think that I think like for example when if if we have like a small showcase
Speaker 2 (54:44)
Hold on, I gotta text somewhere real ⁓
no, I just... You're good? I don't know, what were you saying? Yeah, yeah. What were you saying?
Speaker 1 (54:51)
Yeah, ⁓ welcome. We're like
a small show. Come back to me here. Okay, you're present. When we're at like a small show, I'll look out into the crowd and I'll be talking because I like host them, you know, most of the time and I'll be talking and you'll be like, ⁓ I know I'm like, dude, if I ever need somebody to like, you're like looking at me, you know, like other people might be like, like looking around or something or breaking like, but you're like,
I'm here for this, I've showed up for this. But it's like a great state of mind to listen or to exist in versus living. Like I live in the future a lot. Chloe has to constantly tell me like, I told her other day, go, you know how to make a million dollars? I said, you just need 40 people to pay you $25,000 each or something like that. I don't know, I'm bad at math. I just like, she's like, okay.
Speaker 2 (55:24)
Usually.
Speaker 1 (55:49)
I'm like, that's all I gotta do. And she's like, I don't know why the fuck that, like, why are you bringing, like, why does that matter? And I'm like, because if you think about it, she's like, just focus on like, like here, like, I don't know why you have to think about, but I think that that's like, that's why groups form, like, that's why networks are beneficial because like, everybody brings a different, like, I don't know, like ingredient to the...
recipe like we all have a different like thing that like I you know It's just like benefits the group overall
Speaker 2 (56:24)
Yes, and I think yeah, I think it's crucial to be welcoming to not just that fact, but those people who are giving you those opinions. We have that all the time. Like me, Brian Scott are all different people too, and we all bring different things to the table. or I mean, same with like Christian and you and me. I mean, we're all different, but I think that it's being open and being like okay, and with everyone else's opinions and... ⁓
like action items too is just like crucial. And I think that goes back to time management too. It's like, okay, someone has an idea, they're gonna do it. Awesome, we're gonna pivot into it this way. I gotta go pick up my kid, that's a great idea. Let's do that and see where it goes.
Speaker 1 (57:10)
Yeah, it's funny too because everybody has remained very like, I don't even know, understanding might be the way to put it or something, but like with how hard it has been to basically build everything that we're all building, like between Wally Opus and the chugs, between all the different acts, developing the acts, it's taught me so much about patience and about how
you know, it's actually really challenging to do these things and to keep them afloat for a long time. But the thing that seems to be ⁓ useful is like pushing when it's time to push and then like regrouping whenever you have a chance and then, it's time to push again. Like I can feel that happening right now with the label to where all year it was you guys and Leo. And then I started, I was like, and it's almost like,
I hit a point where I'm like, what am I supposed to do? I can only do so much for these people until it's like, need to like, you gotta figure out something else to do. And then was, oh, okay, let's start a podcast. That would be useful for everybody and I really enjoyed doing that. And then coaching, that would be really useful. I enjoyed doing that too. And then here we are like six months later and now everybody's ready to release music or most people are related to...
on the label are ready to release music again. So now we're doing a of marketing drivers and like getting everything set up for releases, content strategies, like all these things come alive again. Okay, we're going to make a big push. And now the podcast is rolling. It's just like so cool how like, it was just patience and persistence. And we have a better relationship with Symphonic now than we did. And like, we understand things better than we did. It's almost like, do you think you can just survive that like?
five year starting period might be able to figure out what to do over time we just never have put too much pressure on well I definitely have but as a group we've remained pretty calm about like putting too much pressure on things having to work right now I've gotten better but it's just
Speaker 2 (59:08)
Yeah, yeah.
that
we know and ever really knows what working or like success really even is to them even when they have it right yeah so it's like it's hard to it's hard to say we haven't met goal X whenever we also have accomplished all shit and which is just learning right yes which is huge yeah which is here's where you don't have to spend your time
Speaker 1 (59:42)
other stuff.
Well, when you think about how many bands get big or become well known and then they just don't, no one knows what happened to them. And that's probably a whole podcast in itself is interviewing failed bands. Because it's like, what happened? don't Yeah, but I think it would be hardcore. But I think that that's the real, ⁓ man, it would be so, because sometimes if it gets hard, it gets really fucking hard.
But if you just keep showing up and investing in the people and caring about the people and taking a step back when it's time to take step back and then just seeing what the environment is and constantly learning. I feel like you're constantly sharing new things that are popping up, whether that's Spotify's new feature or other services that we're constantly sharing. Is this useful? If it's useful, usually we continue talking about it and if it's not, it just falls to the wayside. But there's always a
communication of new information and like new services, new music services, new promotion, new techniques. Hey, here's what I learned from such and such. It's just like, this is a constant growth, constant learning, but we, it's just an environment of like support really, like growth and support over a long period of time.
Speaker 2 (1:01:08)
Yes, it's good grind with people that you love and I think that's like so fucking important.
Speaker 1 (1:01:14)
Thank you to Sam for being on the show. mean, not only is Sam lead singer and drummer of The Chugs and singer-songwriter of Swamp Eyes and release strategist at Wally Opus and in other bands too. He's also married to my wife's cousin, which makes us cousin in-laws. Chloe's leaving. You can follow Sam and his band, The Chugs, on Instagram and TikTok.
That's where they're mostly active. And to learn more about the podcast, visit everybody else.com. To learn more about the record label, visit Wally Opus.com. And if you're an artist or music business person who is stuck or feeling like you've hit a plateau or feeling like you're ready to take things to the next level and you need a partner in your pocket, you need a one-to-one coach to help you develop these things. I started a company called Throughline Development Company.
and I'm offering my services as a coach and artist development partner, because that's really where I come alive, you know, on the one-to-one, on the connection, on the supporting somebody in unlocking what's holding them back and aligning them with what matters most. This is really what we're doing. You know, it's like an AI, except I'm human and I got experience, but I'm a prompter, I'm a prompt machine. You know, I'm ⁓ gonna dig in, I'm gonna ask more questions.
and I'm gonna help you discover what matters most. And then we're gonna align that discovery with the North Star, a great vision of where you wanna go with all this. Visit artistdev.co to learn more. And as always, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy life to tune into this show, to learn more about the folks working behind the scenes in music, to honor the invisible. And we'll be back again next week.
This is the Everybody Else Podcast. Who are the invisible people of music today and what do they do to make music happen? Because behind every great artist, song, venue, festival and music service there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight and then there's everybody else.
What was that podcast you guys did recently? Did you guys do a podcast? yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:27)
That was Bumming with Bob, Bum Wine Bobcat, where he talks about all the low shelf drinks. We were obviously on there to talk about hams and the new.
Speaker 1 (00:42)
many times as he talked about hams.
Speaker 2 (00:45)
⁓ on our episode, about a hundred cheers, love you.
Speaker 1 (00:51)
but he hasn't talked about that beer before on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:54)
He has. He definitely has because that's how I found him when I was doing my initial what is the hams universe look like he was a part of it you know as far as I was probably looking for hashtags or something like that on Instagram. I mean he probably
Speaker 1 (01:10)
part
of the universe like he's a commentator
Speaker 2 (01:13)
Yeah, yeah, he knows what's up understands understands the vibe understands the person the value of the lower. Yeah, the low shelf. Yes, the alcohol percentage probably knows a lot about it. 4.5 last time I checked. Could be either 4.5 or 4.2 or 4.7. But I think it's 4.5. We can do the fact check.
Speaker 1 (01:19)
the value of beer.
It was the alcohol percentage.
Okay, that's pretty good.
Okay, okay.
We don't yeah our fact checkers sick today, so we'll have to fact check it ourselves later Yeah, that's perfect You know I just like as I was like thinking about this like preparing for this I was thinking about it's it's hard to separate you as as a Music business person from your project at with the chugs
Speaker 2 (01:49)
Let's just say it's 4.5 then.
Speaker 1 (02:13)
However, I do think that they are two different things. I think when you're on stage or when you're in the studio, you're creative, but when you're not in those places or when you're not in those environments, you are like, you're like a music business person, right? You're a release strategist, you're a manager kinda, you're a booker. So I think that, but I think that of everything that's happened in the last year,
Or more, with the music, with the project, I think that there's a lot to unpack about what the fuck just happened and what's even gonna happen next. I don't know, but...
Speaker 2 (02:54)
I love asking myself those two questions. think that's the whole point of doing anything, is to ask those two questions.
Speaker 1 (03:02)
It must mean that there's stuff happening. Yeah, because you're like gotta right, but I'm curious like when it comes to ⁓ How you view your role at Wally Opus or even in the chugs? How would you describe it? How would you define what you do like what you're interested in what you do most of the time? Because I feel like there's something there's there's like a there's a role. There's like something in there
Speaker 2 (03:25)
Yeah, I guess my whole goal for anything I do has been a reaction, I guess. I think it's maybe like I've always I have always wanted a little bit of attention, I guess. I can admit that. And I think that whenever I'm a
whether I'm focusing on music for a niche audience that I know will resonate with it, or I'm like creating a marketing campaign for people who will be targeted and add for that stuff, I want a reaction. I'm really interested in people's reaction from anything. I mean, I'm a people watcher. just like seeing how people engage in where they put their energy, especially if it's something that I make, because I can reflect on it be like, shit, that was something that I did that made someone interact.
made them feel something at all, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:21)
funny because you do that in real life. mean you like prod people to get them to react to something. It's funny to apply that to marketing or promotion of a song. I think that you're always thinking about ways to engage, ways to share things. You're like, this platform just did this, this platform just did that. Do you think that comes from your experience?
when you're day job being in marketing? does that come from like, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:54)
I do, I do. I remember, god it was probably 2008 or whatever when MySpace was happening. It actually, it would have been before then. the only reason I ever made a MySpace page and then also from then learned how to like make div overlays and then from there make a website was to make a website for my band because I didn't want to pay anyone to do it. You know? Like I think it all kind of started there with that marriage of the two sides of the
Like of the coin right the business world and the art world knowing that you have to marry him to really get anywhere Yeah
Speaker 1 (05:32)
It's funny because now that is, it's, you know, the chugs are such an example of like that you guys are an outlier because I would think as a punk band, it's not cool to like post about, uh, Apple editorials or like being on a record label even. don't know. It's, it's almost like you're like the, like the antithesis. Yeah. Like the anti-punk band, punk band, but, but it.
I don't know, but you guys are all from the marketing world. Like every one of you is in web development or, it's like ingrained in who you are.
Speaker 2 (06:10)
Right. Yeah, I think that it's, it is important to do things that other people aren't doing. I mean, I think that, ⁓ like you said, there, there's not a bunch of punk bands that are going to be talking about all like the accolades they get or whatever, because it, it is seen as probably not cool or whatever, but it's also, you know, coming from that world too.
There's a shitload of work that goes on the other side of people even deciding to pick us for anything. So I want to be able to give them the attention that they deserve for distributors, promoters, curators, bloggers. Anyone giving us attention did not have to. And I think that it's really important to know that ⁓
Speaker 1 (06:49)
you talking about like promoter distributor
Speaker 2 (07:06)
they also respect it whenever you notice that. I think that's part of the DIY ethos that's in the punk world is understanding that you do need to do everything to be able to appreciate it when someone else does it for you. And then I think you should be able to come forward and let everyone else know, hey, look, this person did work for me.
Speaker 1 (07:34)
Yeah, it's funny too how far a thank you will go. in a in a I mean This is something that several people have talked about on the podcast Just in the roles of behind the scenes of music like working behind the scenes of music is it could be a thankless job Even though it's it's a crucial job. It's like fundamental for maybe putting on an event or whatever it might be But you know saying thank you because but I think if you've not done that work, you actually have no idea
how much somebody's putting into, whether it's pitching your stuff or even like making a marketing doc or like posting about you on socials. You think about how long it takes sometimes to make a damn social post. It takes sometimes half a
Speaker 2 (08:18)
yeah, for sure. Well, and that's just, you know, for one or two platforms that allow for that specific ratio and ⁓ type of media, right? Yes. ⁓ But ultimately, I that's why this podcast exists, right? Is to shine light on the people who don't get thanked as often as they should, probably. Yeah. Where, I mean...
Speaker 1 (08:39)
And what's funny is because they're packed full of the real juicy information about what is actually going on here. I was just thinking about that yesterday about like, what's the point of the podcast really in the essence of it? And I think it's, it's, yeah, to shine a light on them, but it's also like think about how much you can learn from somebody who every single day is like in and out of venues or, ⁓
you know, in and out of a marketing office or a music distributor, like how much to them is normal for Apple editorials, Spotify editorials, charting, or being on these giant stages and these huge PA systems, like how normal it is to them, but to somebody who doesn't know about it or who just dreams of what it would be like to actually hear it about like what it really takes or like what's the reality of it.
can be so like illuminating and either like turn you completely off or turn you completely on like that's what I want to do like that's badass you know yeah and I even think like shining a light on the this is why I wanted to have you on is like shining a light on like you're seen as an artist but there's a whole other side of you that people don't even know that exists it's not like this all just came you know like it's all just like bubbled up like you guys work your ass off
Speaker 2 (09:45)
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (10:03)
on your marketing and like you do so much on your social like you just do so much that that people it's almost like I have this graphic on my laptop that's this big ass like iceberg and then there's a line and it says like all the work I do and then all the work people see and it's just this little blip right think that's like pretty true
Speaker 2 (10:20)
⁓
It is I would say that There's no way it's more than 10 to 15 percent of my energy that goes into the chugs is like or all of our energy is like making the music, know, most of it is ⁓ business stuff whether that's getting stuff like ready for sync placements figuring out like release dates ⁓ and networking and like you said, yeah everything in between and then we get
to then make music afterward, which is, think, a very important thing for all artists to be able to understand, right? It is very much a luxury to be able to have that 15 % to be able to go all out and make the music that you want to hear. But in order to do that, you probably do need to spend 85 % of it working to get to the point where you're allowed to do the rest creatively.
Speaker 1 (10:51)
Yes.
Yeah, which is interesting because like the way you guys have set it up is you basically do all of the work when you're not together. Like all of that other work when you're not together. The website, the socials, a lot of that's when you're not together. All the editing, all the emailing. Then when you're together, you're either practicing, making music, recording videos, content. ⁓ What else are you doing? Merch stuff sometimes?
Speaker 2 (11:47)
booking a lot of it is booking conversations as well. ⁓ You know when you can do this because it yeah that's that's something that you that it could be a full-time job or is for a lot of people right I mean yeah but whenever you're a small band it is definitely takes a lot of the a lot of the time
Speaker 1 (12:05)
Well it's interesting because like you don't like but you you've you've like accepted the reality of being an artist in 2025 looks like this You guys never complain you guys don't the one act That I know who doesn't complain about the world like you don't complain about the environment like or like that I Mean you might bitch about the you might bitch about the environment. I don't know, but I just mean like the
Speaker 2 (12:31)
We hate the environment. It's good to litter. Put your hams canes in the dirt, Barry, and we actually just did that though. We really did just do that. Yeah, we did a time capsule when we were doing the shoot for our next ⁓ release.
Speaker 1 (12:49)
But you know what I'm saying though? It's like you guys don't, you're not, it's again like actually kind of inside punk, but you're not like pissed off at the world or the like, like fuck all the, like the way it is for musicians. You guys just do stuff. You just work. You just act. You take action. You just do stuff. You don't sit there and talk about stuff and think about stuff. you know what I'm saying? Like from like a, you just do it.
Speaker 2 (13:14)
Yeah, well, I think there are a couple things at play there where one we're all older now and been doing it for like 20 years So I think we did have those years in us as you know 14 to 17 year olds. Yeah, and then once you realize what it Takes I mean in that like maybe you don't have it right now or maybe you there are other obstacles at play and understanding the reality of the situation that it isn't just
You don't just write a song and then get famous and then make music for the rest of your life. That's just not how it works. hasn't for anyone that I know anyway. But it's that. It's just like understand. It's like been doing it for 20 years and not expecting anything. Because I think expectations is also what ruins the creative process too. It's like you make what you want to make and then like.
What happens after that is the ⁓ what the fuck just happened like you were saying and that part is really exciting to me if I have like a goal of like I'm gonna write the song for this person then like Okay, then they end up liking it and you're like, yeah. Well, that's what you were like trying to do. Anyway, so who gives a fucking shit I don't know. It doesn't I just don't think you can I think that you can have and should have goals General goals, but I think that
like whenever you're making music and then being pissed off that it wasn't taken a certain way, I think that that is ⁓ a rough life to have. Because then why do want to keep making music after that? Yes. I don't know. But so going along with that too is that the chugs I think have really ⁓ been the most, it's something that all three of us like to play. It's a genre that we all enjoy and we all just like hanging out and we are all
in agreement about a lot of things. Like we've all grew up liking genres that, where you just weren't gonna make it anyway. I ⁓ mean, you know, Grip listened to lot of like math core or like experimental music and we all kind of did that. And none of those bands got any big, got big and they were like, my idols are very approachable people, you know, like I'll drive an hour and go drink a beer with them. And I love them more than anyone else in the world. You know what I mean?
So like our viewpoint of success is skewed from that being the point of success, right? Like that is, Best Case Scenario is a punk band that 500 people know about. You know what I mean? So like, I don't really know what getting big looks like, because I don't really have a bunch of history of liking bands that are that huge. And not saying that they're bad by any means, it's just something that I didn't really grow up with.
I grew up with like small success, that's sort of probably.
Speaker 1 (15:59)
Yeah, I mean you mentioned yeah, like if you would have been into pop singers or like ⁓ Big country acts growing up you would think yeah, we we're gonna get big when we play stadiums to play arenas See, but that's not even an expectation for this genre
Speaker 2 (16:12)
Right.
No, yeah, mean, just, you know, the best times of growing up was when I would go see like the Chariot and seven or eight people would be there and then we'd all just be like going crazy and they would too. it's just like, you know, simultaneously from their perspective, well, not their perspective, you know, they don't need 500 people to have a good time at a show playing with their friends and the kids who are watching them.
don't need 500 people headbanging with them. And it's like, I view that same thing. Like if I'm playing a punctual, like, don't, I'm going to market the piss out of it to see who, to try to get people to go there so that the venue can make some money. But I'm not necessarily concerned if there's a hundred people or just one. I mean, I have just as much fun practicing.
Speaker 1 (17:03)
And playing with your bandmates with literally one other person running around on stage. But there's a hundred people there running around on stage. What's interesting because you guys prioritize feeling good, having fun, ⁓ being nice to people. You prioritize things that a good person would prioritize, I think. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:29)
And what's funny is, the idea of not having an expectation, that's really interesting because then it, if you just, if you made the music and then you had all this pressure around it that it had to be something, then it has to be something. Like the song itself has to be something. But when you're free to just create, which is ultimately the state of great creation is just freedom to just express yourself. But you guys give yourself constraints.
themes, you have a sound, you only have hours to record. You have very strict limitations, but the pressure's not there to be something else. It's just, it is what it is. But then, as soon as you leave there, that's when the work starts. Then you're doing all the other work that most people expect somebody else to come do.
Speaker 2 (18:26)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:28)
How is that gonna be? I maybe that is gonna happen, but maybe but I don't know I mean probably not I can say you doing it first and somebody coming along be like can I help?
Speaker 2 (18:34)
Yeah. Right.
But I like doing all that stuff. I mean, I've all I well, for example, like with the ⁓ canvases for Spotify, you know, I spent probably 100 or so hours doing those just, you know, because it's also like, this is a reason for me to be able to make stop motion graphics, which is another thing I'm just an interest of yours. Yeah. I just think if you're looking at it positively, everything can be fun.
Like I know, like I said earlier, even if only 15 % of it is actually making music, there's so much potentially valuable and satisfying work in that like 85%, you just have to like think positive about it and then do it. know, like make whatever you fucking want. Like what is not cool about doing whatever you want? Like putting it in the parameters of professionalism.
I get off on that because it feels like crazier to me. know, like I like emailing professional people talking about our band that just makes music about hams because I feel like it's maybe somewhat invasive or something and I like that. I don't know. There's always a way to frame what you're doing, the work that you're doing into something positive and ⁓ valuable instead of being like, fuck, I got a post, God damn it. Or, you know, that type of shit.
Speaker 1 (19:58)
I know, what's the alternative to not do it and then what? I mean, okay, yes, you don't have to post it, like that's fine. But if getting it heard or having some commercial success is on your ambition radar, then doing what you have to do today, like if you guys, if we rewind the clock 40 or 50 years and there was no social media,
Speaker 2 (20:03)
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:25)
you would have to be doing the other things of the day, which I'm sure would require you guys to travel all the effin' time if you really wanted to be a successful band. You'd be playing gigs almost every night. You'd be having to do all these other things, but I think that's what's so cool about even where you guys are at is having conversations around other areas of making music, or making money through the music that are unconventional and that are actually paying for the project.
while you still keep your day jobs, it's like the project is funding itself though through these alternative revenue streams, which that's why it's so exciting about 2025 is I know that the stability of the music industry is kind of shaken up here and just like the world is kind of shaken up here with instability, but like the opportunity to do things your own way is so open and so like at your fingertips literally.
And I know that, and I'm curious to get into this a little bit with you, with the Chugs, you guys have had some interesting opportunities bubble up around sync, whether that's for some local show or DIY films or small films that are being made, but then also podcasts. Like what the hell is this? You know what I mean? So how did these opportunities come about for you?
Speaker 2 (21:53)
you
guys. ⁓
Like communicating well because that's what everyone wants is quick concise communication from the artist because they don't want to fuck around even if like it is punk music that they don't It's not cool anymore. Once you're like not responding to emails and a bunch of shit like that, right? It's you still just you got to keep up like constant contact with people ⁓ Network just ask people things. I mean that gets you pretty far
Creatively as well because you never know what someone else needs or will need in the next like two years There are plenty of people that I talked to that we're going to do stuff with in the future. That doesn't make sense right now Yeah, but you know you keep the conversation going and then it is going to happen Yeah, you know ⁓ and I think those that's how those deals fall into place to is like understanding your worth ⁓ You know monetarily as well, yeah, and then
Speaker 1 (22:51)
It's like a huge step to even get to a place where you feel like ⁓ I am worthy of charging money for my art.
Speaker 2 (22:59)
Yeah, it is difficult and I do think that it is easier as a band because like you have more people to ⁓ Talk to about this. Yeah, you know like with my solo stuff. It's harder because it's my I The art is coming from like one place. Whereas, you know, whenever you have you You know, uh-huh, but if you have a group of you know three to
Speaker 1 (23:17)
is like, what, there's no value in that? Like, I just did it. Like, it's not, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:25)
six people doing something, there's going to be someone who you can bounce ideas off of and like, well that actually that price actually is like way too low. I was thinking 2k for this or wow, they're never going to say yes to that. I was thinking 300 or free for exposure, you know, and those are the conversations that I think are good. Yeah, but it helps you understand that those conversations need to happen. Right. And then from there you can just keep building.
those, in our case, sync placements where you kind of know your value, you know what people need, you know what they're looking for. ⁓ And it also just frankly helps that Scott is the one who makes all of our music.
Speaker 1 (24:06)
That's true, yes, your bandmate has the ability to kick you ⁓ instrumentals, system music, yes, yeah. can start from scratch on a song that kind of sounds like the song we just put out.
Speaker 2 (24:13)
Yes.
Which again goes back to the whole DIY thing where it just find the work that is that makes you happy and and do that within within the music world and then you don't have to pay for as much. You know we didn't pay for a website. didn't pay for our songs to be done. We didn't. We don't pay for socials or marketing. ⁓ You know it's like because we do them. And at the same time.
If someone else helps us, really understand that it's great and we get very excited about it. And that's why we share all of our shit because it's like, there's no, you don't make it anywhere alone. You just don't. I think that it's very, I think it's the right thing to do to say thank you to everyone who's helped you in any way, whether that's texting people who like, you know, went to your show. They didn't have to fucking pay $10 on a Tuesday night.
Speaker 1 (25:02)
Alone,
Dude that part is so like you think about like most people's lives. They're so fucking busy Yeah, if they have any sort of responsibility Yeah, they're not like to make it out to an event or to drive across town is an investment It is maybe they even have to find a babysitter or they got to do this. They're gonna spend 60 bucks Not just like, know deny the ⁓ it's all this shit It's just like it's so much or if they buy a piece of merch or buy a vinyl. It's like
Speaker 2 (25:37)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:45)
It's such a big deal that it's interesting, because even if you had a show that like 20 people came out to, to think like, fuck, what was that?
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It's 20 people.
Speaker 2 (28:13)
That's
$200 in circulation. And we are very lucky to have people who come to our shows more than once. That's insane to me. I love it because we're all very thankful because that money, however many times they've seen us, plus whatever drinks they buy. Yeah. it's like, is, I mean, those people are the ones keeping
Speaker 1 (28:15)
About ten bucks.
it's a thing now.
Bye.
Speaker 2 (28:42)
all bands alive are the ones that continue to go to the shows and like they are definitely helping everyone's musical business whether they realize it or not you know. ⁓
Speaker 1 (28:53)
But you know going back a second I was just thinking it's funny like you guys didn't set out to do Like you're talking about sink you didn't set out to be a sink band It was just there there seemed to be a pattern unfolding here recently And I think this is so important like this is why I feel like I'm talking to artists a lot about it's just like well Let's talk about like what is working or what is bubbling up that you're aware of?
Instead of keeping blinders on, no, we have to be, like a punk band plays at a lot of shows. We have to play a lot of shows. But you told me that a couple weeks ago, you're like, look, the reality of situation is, like with our circumstances as a band, us being, know, two of you have kids, you all have day jobs, you all have houses, like we have responsibilities. We can't tour like the other punk bands that we play with sometimes or that of the past.
We have to find other ways of doing things and there's this thing that keeps bubbling up. It's called sync. And then I think that this is like, but you didn't set out that, but now that it's on the radar, you're spending a ton of time investing in getting your catalog all sorted, getting everything up in a ⁓ clean, cohesive, one stop shop. It's like you're building, but this is what's beautiful about what you guys are doing and I think this is what we've done the whole time with Wally Opus too is just,
oh, now this is a thing? Now we're gonna build that part of the business or of the brand or of the thing. Like, oh, let's focus on that now. I think it started here with just like a studio, probably, or getting some equipment and then a studio and then it was like, okay, let's record, we need music, right? What's next? Now we gotta figure out how to get it out there. And it's never really like a cohesive step-by-step.
But it is step by step, you know, but it's not really like it wasn't really like a game But you make the plan as you go, you
Speaker 2 (30:49)
NO!
That's
exactly what I mean about like the what the fuck was that or it's like that. Okay What and then what happens next? Yeah, like you never know But I think the willing willingness to pivot is so crucial because everything Changes now, you know, it's like Well, yes Spotify now announcing that like, you know next week Everyone's gonna be able like DM their songs to everyone like that's gonna be a huge game changer I mean every six months or so. There's a huge ⁓ like
marketing obstacle or ⁓ gateway. exactly. it's that change is same with music, same with like every project you're in, there's going to be those weird chances and just fucking take them because you don't know. And we, I will say have a ⁓ little bit of padding because we're like half like a comedy band to a degree. So we're like we can sort of
take those risks that other people may be like more afraid to but like if it's funny then it's also fine. Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:51)
But like we, I know we talked about this the other day, but I think what's interesting about being where you guys are is what I've been able to witness this year alone is that, because I'm seeing like multiple projects unfold simultaneously just within my role, within the label, as management, as coach now, like I can see all these things unfolding. And from the inside, and I use the Chugs as an example so often now about
Handful of things but like saying thank you Sharing the shit out of everything because I keep thinking about this idea that like in five years Fucking a year in two three five years ten years Nobody's gonna nobody's gonna know any of this happened. It's just gonna be part of the story No different than like when you were on myspace I'm sure there were bands there were bands at the time were blowing up on myspace who even knows what they were posting
No one knows, we know that some of them now have gone on to play, know, maybe they're huge bands now that blew up on MySpace. ⁓ MGMT, that's a band that blew up on MySpace, I think. And they were just college kids. But you think about, it's like, you see this band headlining a festival now, they don't have to post everything. They are gonna get in all the editorials, and they are gonna get these giant, like, festival slots. They're gonna have user-generated content on the internet flooding.
flooding their presence all across the internet. They don't have to do it. But in the early days, nobody else is gonna do it except you. And then maybe, maybe somebody's gonna come along and nudge you along the way whenever you're ready and whenever things align and then someone nudges you and then, you know, perhaps. Perhaps not, you know, yeah. Perhaps you actually have to build the damn thing and be out loud. But I just think that
Speaker 2 (33:34)
Hey.
Speaker 1 (33:47)
It's taught me so much about being vocal about what's going on, sharing that stuff with the distributor, sharing like with Symphonic or Distributor, sharing all of that stuff with them, getting feedback from them, sharing all of this stuff on socials, getting feedback from socials. It's just like the project is alive. It's not just sitting there waiting on something to come save it, you know?
Speaker 2 (34:06)
Yeah.
I think there's also a, we just also like to see the fruits of our label labels. I guess that too, pun intended. But, ⁓ and ⁓ we also just like to work hard and like everything that we get is if it's a product of what we do, it's that much more exciting than like if we're waiting, then it's still cool if something happens, but it's not as cool if we can tie it back to, we spent.
75 hours doing this and look what we got from it, you know? Yes. ⁓
Speaker 1 (34:44)
Yeah,
so so I'm curious like if you were if you were a 20 year old in a band today You were starting out like see it. So you guys are pretty Scott recorded the record pretty good
Speaker 2 (34:54)
Okay.
Is
Scott still 40? Is it still free?
Speaker 1 (35:01)
Yeah, yeah, he's not a fan.
yeah, okay, it can be free. Yeah, but it's good. It's good. He didn't like cut any corners. It's good. Okay. All right. But and you don't have you don't have very much money really you have 150 bucks. What money man? It is when you're 20 maybe. What would you do? What would you focus on today? If you were just getting started? Like what would you focus on to start building your project out in the world? Where would you begin?
Speaker 2 (35:07)
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:29)
The music's done.
Speaker 2 (35:30)
Do all the social networks still exist? Yeah. I'm current environment. ⁓ So I still hate the environment. littering, as we all should. ⁓ I really have always loved guerrilla marketing. I did that when I was 20 from other bands, and it did really work. And then I pivoted to digital, but I'm really craving the organic.
Speaker 1 (35:32)
You're in current. ⁓ You're 20, but you're in current environment.
Speaker 2 (35:59)
guerrilla marketing stuff and I do think that it and I would tell I would say real world like we got a billboard we got some videos of us underneath the billboard and that yeah you got like literally did that yes yeah we got some banners made ⁓ it's just or like handing out stuff in the streets putting out signs in the streets people are used to seeing a bunch of stuff online now but they're not
Speaker 1 (36:03)
works.
You mean like in the real world?
Just
Speaker 2 (36:28)
really used to the organic methods of advertising and marketing anymore because most people say blast everything on TikTok, which I'm not saying you shouldn't, but like coming at it from both angles is the way to go, I think. It's also-
Speaker 1 (36:45)
Sorry real quick. It's funny because doing that stuff in the real world gives you something to post about online. That's This is such a good I think when people don't know what to post it's like go do something Yeah, and film it and share that uh-huh and then whatever happens there go tell somebody else in the real world Hey, I got all these followers. Can I play at your bar right now use that footage to get the next gate? It's like yeah, just like build the relationship between the two worlds
Speaker 2 (36:50)
Yeah, exactly. This is a twofer.
Yeah, well also just as reach decreases generally across all social platforms. Yeah, it hasn't Necessarily changed in the real world You can still go up to someone and give them a fucking cassette if you want or give them a flyer or anything or stickers or Anything honestly and like well there you go There's in real life engagement that you know you would have paid $15 for for meta. It's just Take 20 minutes and do something outside with your project
And yeah, also I think just building venue connections is still one of the most important things. Speaking just like for a punk side of things, I really truly don't know other than that if you're not playing live a lot. I don't know, but I always have and that was always something that I was interested in. And I think it still stands today. I don't know if a lot has changed besides it back 20 years to being.
organic and guerrilla marketing and that kind of shit again, especially with the emergence of AI and how either everyone's using it or everyone hates it. And it's like, well, one way to combat that is just like make it obvious that it's fucking not. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:25)
I think that's why I saw somebody tell me this recently. It's like the less produced that your video is ⁓ It's almost like it's like more like people are watching more less produced videos that they will watch like produced videos Because they know well, this is real That's right. Why cringe is such a Big big thing, right? Yeah, because we know
Speaker 2 (38:41)
Right.
just big yeah uh-huh I love it
Speaker 1 (38:49)
That's true irony. can't think of something like No. AI could not make something this bad or this funny. Like it just, it's too human. It's too real. Resifory, it's like, can't watch this shit. like now it's really enjoyable to see somebody just being a human being, stumbling around or just, you know, using these tools and coming up with just crazy shit that. Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:57)
You'll... Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, I think that is just being human as you know, I think that's the most important part too Just like even whenever you're performing on stage Just you know, let the crowd in on it. Let everyone be a part of the experience. They also fucking paid to be there Like you don't need to act like you're I've always I guess I've always viewed if I'm on stage I view myself as a clown not necessarily like hey you have to be funny, but in a way of like
You're the fucking entertainment. You're here for people. You fucking make them happy. This is not about, I mean...
Speaker 1 (39:48)
It's about us, it's not just about me.
Is that too, it's a fine line. It's a really fine line between this is about us, all of us, or this is about me showing you something, how great I am. Because even like a really good, I don't even know, fuck, I was just thinking like a juggler or something on America's Got Talent. Like even somebody who's just a really great performer, you're with them. You're not separate from, you're in awe of them, but you're watching them, but you're connected.
Speaker 2 (39:59)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:20)
It's not just them displaying performance. Right. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:26)
And I think one of the things I love about punk is that it allows for the gap to be eliminated completely. Whereas, you know, I'm not up there doing a concerto where someone can come up and go, like with the strings and then piss everybody off. for example, last show, some dude came up and kind of like just, I...
I gave him a drumstick and he just hit some cymbals with me, right? And it was just like, that's fucking fine at a punk show. And that guy was happy. And it's like that he paid money to be here. He deserves to smash a cymbal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:06)
⁓ my god. I just- Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:09)
I don't know, we're essentially a karaoke project for our own music, you know what mean? This is how I view us and I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:20)
I mean, it's the most like, even like when I'm there, I just feel like a different side of me comes out of the Chug Show. Like with the The End of the Night, I have the microphone, I'm singing the songs to, know, or I'm just yelling. just, like a part of me comes out that does not come out at other shows at all.
Speaker 2 (41:40)
Well, I think I do think we have some self-awareness right about like we're not trying to change the world We make it music. Yeah, we make music about a beer that is and should be loved by everyone. Yes Because of how welcoming it is. It's Yeah, Yeah, so low and I think that we occupy that I you know that is our goal speaking of goals from earlier is to occupy that space as a band is to be the hams beer of
the punk world, you know? welcoming space that not very high expectation, but you have a great time once you're there.
Speaker 1 (42:18)
Wow dude, that's actually, but also like legendary. Just like that.
Speaker 2 (42:24)
Legendary,
We've been around since 1865.
Speaker 1 (42:29)
Not that you guys can like claim the legendary but like eventually you can I guess but like but it's amazing just to think like yeah, that's such a good Just like position to take as the band. It's like, yeah, we're we're only 1999 at Target for 30 pack that analogy but in the world or in the context of being a band Yeah, but you also are quality consistent quality
Speaker 2 (42:55)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:56)
I don't know, like this is like a, they're forever, yeah. Not available everywhere, but available for anybody who can get it. Yeah, that's great. So I'm curious, going back to like workflow, I think a lot of people are, I just did a reel on this recently, ⁓ but about like quitting their day jobs. People are obsessed with quitting their day jobs. But it seems to me from outside looking in, like you guys,
Speaker 2 (43:10)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (43:25)
all have day jobs and families, and you're actually one of the more consistent and productive acts that I know personally, what do you think life would be like if you didn't have day jobs?
Speaker 2 (43:39)
I think that we would all suck at time management. I think it's crucial to be able to plan, not that you have to plan, but to be able to plan every minute of your day if you can. If you have something that needs to be done. like for example, like at work, mean, I'll work at the office for the first half, I'll go home and for like the next, like during lunch, I'll probably spend like 45 minutes doing something that I have to get done.
music wise and then I'll get back on and work the rest of the day and then depending on like what shows on the TV or what or who's at whatever place I might make music, might ⁓ develop another marketing strategy, I might write songs, you know what mean? It's just all about what are you doing this minute and like is it being, are you being productive for what you want to be doing? Not saying you have to work out or anything or like, you know, but
If you're there and you're like almost bored, could be doing something for your band.
Speaker 1 (44:44)
that kind of eliminates boredom.
Speaker 2 (44:46)
It has for me. It has for me. Like I don't get bored. like, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (44:51)
Actually, cause like not that boredom's a bad thing even. I think there's a space for boredom to create like, I don't know, something. stuff comes out of boredom. Like when you're just sitting there sometimes I feel like ideas will come out. But like you show up for your life when everything is like, when you have to show, like when you literally have to be present as a dad, then as, then for your job and then for your band. you are on in all of these areas. And it just like keeps you.
you're always then producing something, you're always coming up with who's doing the work.
Speaker 2 (45:30)
Well yeah, because I mean I know if I have two hours to do something that usually takes more than that. I'm gonna spend every second of that two hours to knock it out, right? And then you get a lot more done than you think that way. you know, I mean I just, don't really watch, I guess I watch TV at night sometimes, but even when I'm watching I'm like studying it. You know, I'm like thinking about it or thinking about how did they get.
Speaker 1 (45:56)
that.
Speaker 2 (45:57)
Yeah, what's the place? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (46:00)
I bet that took forever to get that shot right thing
Speaker 2 (46:04)
Right,
yeah, so just planning, I mean, it's not like sexy to do that, I guess, but it also is how you get everything done that you need to as being deadline driven and, I, not like true deadline, but you know, okay, I have 30 minutes, I'm going to do this for this 30 minutes. Yeah. You know, instead of just being like, I don't know what to do. Yeah. You know, just, I think one way to combat that too, though, is to have a lot of things on your plate.
Because if you have 15 things that you need to do, they don't all take the same amount of time. And if you have this 30 minute time, then you can pick of the 15 things. Drop it in there. OK, that one thing's done. Now I have 14 things left to do. then, you know what saying?
Speaker 1 (46:50)
I mean, but it's amazing how much you can't get done when you don't have a whole lot of time to do things because I mean, this is, know, my coach Nikki talks about this. She's like, things will take the allotted time that you give them. So if you're like, hey, it's gonna take me another year to finish my album, you can guarantee you that it's gonna take a year. But if you say, gotta get this record done in like a week and a half, you will somehow create the time
Speaker 2 (47:10)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (47:19)
and it will come forth that you actually hit this deadline. what's funny, it's probably gonna be better than the year and a half one that you were thinking about making, because you were thinking about making it. But it keeps you from entering this place of overthinking or ⁓ stagnation or hesitation because you have responsibilities. You can't not pick your kid up from school. You literally have to go get them at four, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2 (47:28)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:48)
that you have to work for 30 minutes, then you have to leave to go get that. But I think it's a misconception for a lot of older, I say older artists, artists in their 20s or 30s, like late 20s into their 30s, who think that having kids, it definitely changes life. But it's been a huge benefit for me, just in terms of being a better person and creating time boundaries.
Speaker 2 (48:12)
For sure, same here.
Speaker 1 (48:18)
It's made me way-
Speaker 2 (48:19)
being a better team member for whoever else is in your band too, like just understand. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ Respect.
Speaker 1 (48:25)
elaborate
them, respecting their time versus like it's such a thing with young bands too that like if you're not all the way in this, like if you're not willing to die for the band it is not it's not gonna work right even though we're not doing it like why would you do a fucking sit in the basement like what are we doing then you have to be here
Speaker 2 (48:35)
Yeah.
You have to be here. We'll kill you right now. That's why they have all those knives in the basement all the time. Ready to go.
Speaker 1 (48:53)
Yeah,
but yeah, think it's a, I think just, I use you guys as an example. Yeah, the benefit of having responsibility is that your time is very valuable. Spend it valuably. Which I don't think everybody, I think people think it's gonna be a drag, or like getting a day job, I'm not gonna be able to think about it. Like work on my music, having kids, I'm not gonna be able to like tour and do all these things. Which is true, it's gonna change things.
Speaker 2 (48:58)
for thank you.
Yeah. Yes, 100%.
But at the same time, like, when you have, like, I don't personally want to spend 200 days on the road because I want to be by my kids as well, right? Yeah. You know, I want to ⁓ play a couple shows a month and then do ⁓ runs periodically throughout the year, you know, five-day runs throughout the year, but like, I don't, I don't want to be away from them for three months.
They're young, they're growing every day, it's just like that's what I value more than just being around doing that. And that is still a valuable thing for lot of people, and I do get value from it, but you gotta pick and choose and plan accordingly. And that's sort of where the business part of it, us meeting up every Wednesday and talking about booking stuff and figuring out what makes sense and what doesn't. It's so crucial to be picky and choosy about everything that you do.
Speaker 1 (50:15)
What's funny is it's going to, in my opinion, it's going to increase the value of you guys over time because like you're actually hard to get. You're not like that, not right now necessarily, but you're gonna be.
Speaker 2 (50:28)
I love that idea of us being hard to get.
Speaker 1 (50:31)
And it's not because of anything, they're just like, no, we only have like...
Speaker 2 (50:35)
Yeah, we just don't have any time to do that. Yeah. huh. Yes.
Speaker 1 (50:38)
Yeah, but we could be there if we're open You know, but
I think that it just I don't know I think it's a there's a there's a lot to the benefit of having it like it III I talk about this sometimes but like I saw a thing of Elliot a video of Elliott Smith talking about how you know when he was he was more productive when he had his day job because he would write songs and record at night and then go to work, I think was working construction or something and
He would think about his songs and he would come home and continue working on them. And he's like, but when I, when I stopped working like a day job, I just had so much time. I just like thought about the music, you know, I just, I think that it, just creates a, don't know. It just creates too, it's just too much time. Unless you're really fucking busy and you're really successful. And I'm sure you're like, I can't get enough time. you have the other, that's like a different problem.
Speaker 2 (51:25)
For sure.
problem.
like, yeah, even whenever you're, you know, we're going to pick up our kids from school, you can spend the 20 minutes that you're driving there to listen to mixes or call somebody. Yeah, figure, you know, do business that way and or, you know, listen to a podcast about what you want to happen like a sync licensing podcast or artist management podcast or something like that, you know, I still view that as productive. I mean, learning on the way, right? I mean, you're not making the music or you're not
But you're developing yourself along that tangent. ⁓
Speaker 1 (52:09)
And
what's there's no more humbling feeling than thinking like you've really done something amazing and then your kid like Comes down and pushes like a button on the damn interface and clips the like the project shuts then the files are corrupted And I flip out and then I say sorry. I'm sorry flipped out, but you can't touch the damn interface. I told you this 18 times
Speaker 2 (52:32)
For the listeners out there, it was actually me who did that earlier and Wes has blamed me on his child. Yeah, that's his way of calling me a child. Which I am, I guess.
Speaker 1 (52:37)
Real piss.
That's why I got so pissed. I should have like, child. So what are you looking forward to? What excites you about music? What do you think about a lot? What do you dream about when it comes to music or when it comes to the label or the chugs or just your own creativity? What are you looking out ahead at?
Speaker 2 (52:46)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:08)
Do you look at?
Speaker 2 (53:09)
I do look out, but I think I look out, ⁓
Not too far out because I think that distracts me from what I'm like doing right now. I really love, I've always just like kind of loved where I was at, which makes me like appreciate the next step a little bit more, you know, like right now I'm super excited about the release of Eternal Brutopia and the next stuff we have coming out in a few months. then ⁓ with the Swamp Eyes is getting started. I'm like, like you said, finding time to lay down some like,
drum and guitar tracks, like during lunches and that type of shit. I'm excited about all the new people on the label releasing a bunch of stuff and as well as like all the network that we're building. But yeah, so it's hard for me to say I'm excited about this because I am like welcoming a lot that's coming to me and I'm very excited when those things happen, you know? That seems to be how I'm most happy is like just working hard and then being surprised by what comes from it.
Yeah, and I it feels like that just keeps happening and I'm like very excited to keep doing that forever. that's saying it. don't I have no idea like what success generally looks like but that feels like Successful to me me getting those jolts of like fuck. Yeah, that's awesome. You know
Speaker 1 (54:30)
It's you're one of the most present people I've ever met like you're you're fully present with all the people that you're with I think that I think like for example when if if we have like a small showcase
Speaker 2 (54:44)
Hold on, I gotta text somewhere real ⁓
no, I just... You're good? I don't know, what were you saying? Yeah, yeah. What were you saying?
Speaker 1 (54:51)
Yeah, ⁓ welcome. We're like
a small show. Come back to me here. Okay, you're present. When we're at like a small show, I'll look out into the crowd and I'll be talking because I like host them, you know, most of the time and I'll be talking and you'll be like, ⁓ I know I'm like, dude, if I ever need somebody to like, you're like looking at me, you know, like other people might be like, like looking around or something or breaking like, but you're like,
I'm here for this, I've showed up for this. But it's like a great state of mind to listen or to exist in versus living. Like I live in the future a lot. Chloe has to constantly tell me like, I told her other day, go, you know how to make a million dollars? I said, you just need 40 people to pay you $25,000 each or something like that. I don't know, I'm bad at math. I just like, she's like, okay.
Speaker 2 (55:24)
Usually.
Speaker 1 (55:49)
I'm like, that's all I gotta do. And she's like, I don't know why the fuck that, like, why are you bringing, like, why does that matter? And I'm like, because if you think about it, she's like, just focus on like, like here, like, I don't know why you have to think about, but I think that that's like, that's why groups form, like, that's why networks are beneficial because like, everybody brings a different, like, I don't know, like ingredient to the...
recipe like we all have a different like thing that like I you know It's just like benefits the group overall
Speaker 2 (56:24)
Yes, and I think yeah, I think it's crucial to be welcoming to not just that fact, but those people who are giving you those opinions. We have that all the time. Like me, Brian Scott are all different people too, and we all bring different things to the table. or I mean, same with like Christian and you and me. I mean, we're all different, but I think that it's being open and being like okay, and with everyone else's opinions and... ⁓
like action items too is just like crucial. And I think that goes back to time management too. It's like, okay, someone has an idea, they're gonna do it. Awesome, we're gonna pivot into it this way. I gotta go pick up my kid, that's a great idea. Let's do that and see where it goes.
Speaker 1 (57:10)
Yeah, it's funny too because everybody has remained very like, I don't even know, understanding might be the way to put it or something, but like with how hard it has been to basically build everything that we're all building, like between Wally Opus and the chugs, between all the different acts, developing the acts, it's taught me so much about patience and about how
you know, it's actually really challenging to do these things and to keep them afloat for a long time. But the thing that seems to be ⁓ useful is like pushing when it's time to push and then like regrouping whenever you have a chance and then, it's time to push again. Like I can feel that happening right now with the label to where all year it was you guys and Leo. And then I started, I was like, and it's almost like,
I hit a point where I'm like, what am I supposed to do? I can only do so much for these people until it's like, need to like, you gotta figure out something else to do. And then was, oh, okay, let's start a podcast. That would be useful for everybody and I really enjoyed doing that. And then coaching, that would be really useful. I enjoyed doing that too. And then here we are like six months later and now everybody's ready to release music or most people are related to...
on the label are ready to release music again. So now we're doing a of marketing drivers and like getting everything set up for releases, content strategies, like all these things come alive again. Okay, we're going to make a big push. And now the podcast is rolling. It's just like so cool how like, it was just patience and persistence. And we have a better relationship with Symphonic now than we did. And like, we understand things better than we did. It's almost like, do you think you can just survive that like?
five year starting period might be able to figure out what to do over time we just never have put too much pressure on well I definitely have but as a group we've remained pretty calm about like putting too much pressure on things having to work right now I've gotten better but it's just
Speaker 2 (59:08)
Yeah, yeah.
that
we know and ever really knows what working or like success really even is to them even when they have it right yeah so it's like it's hard to it's hard to say we haven't met goal X whenever we also have accomplished all shit and which is just learning right yes which is huge yeah which is here's where you don't have to spend your time
Speaker 1 (59:42)
other stuff.
Well, when you think about how many bands get big or become well known and then they just don't, no one knows what happened to them. And that's probably a whole podcast in itself is interviewing failed bands. Because it's like, what happened? don't Yeah, but I think it would be hardcore. But I think that that's the real, ⁓ man, it would be so, because sometimes if it gets hard, it gets really fucking hard.
But if you just keep showing up and investing in the people and caring about the people and taking a step back when it's time to take step back and then just seeing what the environment is and constantly learning. I feel like you're constantly sharing new things that are popping up, whether that's Spotify's new feature or other services that we're constantly sharing. Is this useful? If it's useful, usually we continue talking about it and if it's not, it just falls to the wayside. But there's always a
communication of new information and like new services, new music services, new promotion, new techniques. Hey, here's what I learned from such and such. It's just like, this is a constant growth, constant learning, but we, it's just an environment of like support really, like growth and support over a long period of time.
Speaker 2 (1:01:08)
Yes, it's good grind with people that you love and I think that's like so fucking important.
Speaker 1 (1:01:14)
Thank you to Sam for being on the show. mean, not only is Sam lead singer and drummer of The Chugs and singer-songwriter of Swamp Eyes and release strategist at Wally Opus and in other bands too. He's also married to my wife's cousin, which makes us cousin in-laws. Chloe's leaving. You can follow Sam and his band, The Chugs, on Instagram and TikTok.
That's where they're mostly active. And to learn more about the podcast, visit everybody else.com. To learn more about the record label, visit Wally Opus.com. And if you're an artist or music business person who is stuck or feeling like you've hit a plateau or feeling like you're ready to take things to the next level and you need a partner in your pocket, you need a one-to-one coach to help you develop these things. I started a company called Throughline Development Company.
and I'm offering my services as a coach and artist development partner, because that's really where I come alive, you know, on the one-to-one, on the connection, on the supporting somebody in unlocking what's holding them back and aligning them with what matters most. This is really what we're doing. You know, it's like an AI, except I'm human and I got experience, but I'm a prompter, I'm a prompt machine. You know, I'm ⁓ gonna dig in, I'm gonna ask more questions.
and I'm gonna help you discover what matters most. And then we're gonna align that discovery with the North Star, a great vision of where you wanna go with all this. Visit artistdev.co to learn more. And as always, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy life to tune into this show, to learn more about the folks working behind the scenes in music, to honor the invisible. And we'll be back again next week.
