WEBVTT
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Welcome to Drilling into Crypto. I'm your host, Mohammed al MASRII.
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Every week I speak to the leaders that are driving
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the global financial revolution. Drilling into Crypto puts the spotlight
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on the importance of crypto assets, on energy markets and
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on global monetary policy. Welcome to Drilling into Crypto. Joining
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me today is Carlos Tappang, veteran engineer, bitcoin minor and
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founder of rock Stable, building inflation resistant money for global economy.
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Hi Carlos, thank you for joining Drilling into Crypto. How
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are you doing today?
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Great? Thank you all. Thank you for having me here.
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It's my pleasure. Thank you. I like to start off
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by giving you the chance to introduce yourself to the
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audience and telling us about your journey, what you were
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doing before rock Stable, and how you got into the
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world of cryptocurrency and stable coins.
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Yeah. I come from the software background, so I'm a
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software engineer. I've been for a long time. I came
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to know bitcoin, I think in twenty eleven. Yeah, I
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wrote actually a blog in twenty eleven, in March of
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twenty eleven about bitcoin, and I was skeptical, of course
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at that time, whether it will gain traction at all,
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because I imagine that a big company has to back
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it before it can you know, gain followers. But as
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you know now, I mean it did gain followers slowly
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at first and then now accelerating really fast. And that's
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what's interesting about crypto. It's very help to predict what's
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going to happen next. And so I went into bitcoin mining,
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being skeptical at first and then finally being somebody who
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bought it and actually doing mining for it. At that time,
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that was two thousand and fourteen, twenty thirteen, bitcoin just
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exceeded thousand dollars. I bought it about I think it
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was seventy dollars, and with the gain, I was able
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to start the business bitcoin mining. There's a place here
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in the state of Washington, USA where electricity costs only
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three three cents per kilo one hour. Sickly imagine that.
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And so there were people, not just me, who were
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inviting bitcoin miners at that time. You know, people would
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buy their own mining rigs and they would then look
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for places to put their mining rig and one of
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those is my place. So I had several customers send
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their mining rigs to me, and that's how I got started.
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That's amazing. What is that moment that you realized, you know,
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this industry was, what's going to be your life's work
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during that journey.
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Yeah, at the time that I studied bitcoin, I was
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already studying money because I was curious what money really is.
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The question that kept coming to my mind is what
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is money really? And so I read books and I'm
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glad that the first book I read is a tick book.
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It's a by Bond Missus called The Theory of Money
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and Credit. It was difficult to read, okay, difficult to understand,
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but I went through it and that opened my eyes.
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And I read more books, more recent monetary economists, and
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so now I have a good grasp. I would say, oh,
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what is money? It's very complicated. Okay, It's very simple
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for us because you know, we use it every day, right,
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We get paid in money and then we spend it.
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It's very simple for us. But the concept of money
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involves all in society. We're all basically trying to survive
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as a society, and we transact with each other, and
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our means or major means of transaction is with money.
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Without money, I mean, we cannot be where we are now.
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So that's what money is, and that's what started me
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going with bitcoin. And then now I realized that bitcoin
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is not money because it is extremely deflationary. That's the
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term for it. Deflationary is when money is increasing in
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value and you don't want that because then nobody will
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spend it, right and if nobody spends it, it will
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not circulate. The velocity is almost zero, and that's exactly
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what's happening now. Bitcoin as a velocity of almost zero,
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whereas stable coins the velocity is really high. That's money.
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Money is something that changes hands all the time. You
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can save it if you want, but it is naturally
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designed to have a little bit of inflation, so when
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you spend it, you don't regret spending it. And that's
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the trick to who money is. So you don't want
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your money to be like bitcoin. If it is bitcoin,
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nobody is going to spend it. You will not circulate.
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But if you have it inflating a little bit, then
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people will not regret spending it and it will circulate
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in the economy. And that's the whole thing about stable coins.
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That seems to be the main challenge that bitcoin as
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a technology, or even as a as a so called
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currency that has been facing is the ability to be
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used as a medium of exchange. And most investors and
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people that hold bitcoin are considering it as a store
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of value or as an alternative to gold. When you know,
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institutions get into it, and hedge funds and exchange traded
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funds start to build treasury around it. It's definitely being
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used as a store of value versus a medium of exchange.
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And the velocity, as you said, is very low, even
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maybe zero as you mentioned, Yeah.
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I would call it an investment because it is increasing
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in value, definitely increasing.
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Yeah, it is definitely an investment at least that's the
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way the market is treating it, right, even though that's
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not what it was built for.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and yeah, your view on money as it relates
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to society, I mean it seems like money, money has.
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Money has the traits of a social contract, right where
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binds people together and it puts us all on a
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on a specific path and provides order and and you know,
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order out of sometimes even when there's chaos, money brings
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order out of chaos because.
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Of exactly Yes, yes, there is a term for it
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that economists, you say, is called the invisible hand you
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know from address myth. Yes, nobody really designed money for us.
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We all happen to trust one currency. And that's why
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the US dollar is number one, because it's had a
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good track record, right, and we trust it since you know,
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we were born. The US dollar has been there and nobody,
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nobody questions it. I mean you would receive or you
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would accept US dollars with no questions asked. And that's
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the term actually used by economists n QA no questions asked.
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When money has come to that level, that means that
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it will circulate because people readily accepted with no questions.
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That's the definition of money. Actually, Yeah, something that you
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would accept with no questions asked.
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I would accept bitcoin with no questions asked, for sure,
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but it's it's not it's not something that someone wants
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to spend or give me for any types of yes services,
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though I've been discussions with On the last episode, I
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had uh Benoit and Sanci two episodes ago from BTSF
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and and they're building a bitcoin credit. So there's they're
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they're lending in bitcoin right as bitcoin denominated debt or
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bitcoin Wow, So I guess that is something that fuels
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the ecosystem and and builds the velocity that you mentioned
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that is lacking in.
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In is this about, Uh, you use bitcoin as a
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collateral so you can borrow money.
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No, what they're doing is pretty much the opposite is
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where they're collateralizing your equipment or your projects or your
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assets and they're providing bitcoin as the credit. So it's bitcoin.
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You're lending out bitcoin. Yes, yeah, wow, that's crazy. Yes,
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that's crazy.
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It is crazy. But I think that is what's missing
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in the industry, is to have bitcoin circulate in that fashion.
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What's your thoughts on that.
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Yeah, that's interesting because lenders would love to lend out bitcoin,
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but as a borrower, you don't want to borrow bitcoin.
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It would be when it goes up, it would be
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very difficult for you to pay back. Right.
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Well, when when you're lending against bitcoin mining infrastructure, you're
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basically basing your payouts or or repayments on the mining operations, right,
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So they only lend for minors. This is this is
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a key point.
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Oh, this is for minors. Okay, But even then, though,
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what do miners do with it when they borrow? So
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would they convert it to dollars and spend it that
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way or I don't understand what they would do.
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My understanding is that if if if you receive bitcoin
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in as a form as a bitcoin denominated credit, you
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would have to convert it to us DT or stable
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coin in order to pay the vendors with it. Right,
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because most of the vendors across the value chain except
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stable coin mostly u s DT on that. But okay,
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that's what you would have to do, I guess, to
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make those vendor payments and build your project, right.
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Okay, So these are minors, so they would buy their equipment,
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they would buy their mining rigs, and they need stable
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coins for so they convert the bitcoin into you know,
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stable coins and then they spend it. Now the bitcoin
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is gone, they will have to mine it and then
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pay back. Okay, I get it.
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Now that brings that velocity that you mentioned, right, because
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because bitcoin is not being used as a form of
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a currency widely and most people want to hold it.
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But now you got when you got lenders doing bitcoin
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denominated dead, when you got eventually vendors accepting bitcoin, and
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certain retail institutions as well. They accept bitcoin as a
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form of payment. Though people are are not that motivated
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to sell it because of the way the market is treating.
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It right, and I don't think anybody would be motivated
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to borrow it also, except probably minors, because imagine if
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you borrow bitcoin now converted to stable coins, spend it,
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and now you have to pay it back in bitcoin,
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you can't have a hard time.
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If yeah, has to be the opposite in that case,
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you need to borrow cash or stable coin and buy
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bitcoint yes, right, yeah, but in the minors case, I
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think I think it's it's an interesting scenario, but I'd
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like to learn more about what you're building on the
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stable coin side, and you know, give us some fundamentals
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about that.
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Yes. So I started the Rock Stable which is my
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current company, in twenty eighteen, and the basic idea then
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was to come up with a stable coin that can
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be used to send money overseas. So it's basically a
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cross border money transfer system that we build and we
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put our own stable coin. We use our own stable
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coin called roks rocks, which exists in Solana. So we
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did that and we've been doing that since twenty twenty two.
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But you know, we didn't gain too many users until
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now p y USD came out right from PayPal and
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p y USD is now used exactly the same way
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that they imagine rocks to be used. But you know,
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we are a small company. We were never funded and
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so we basically just had a pilot and that's it.
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Now we are coming up with a new product called IRMA.
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IRMA it stands for Inflation Resistant medium of Account. So
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the big thing is that it is inflation resistant. All
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of the US dollar backed stable coins right now will
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inflate with a dollar, and everyone knows that the dollar
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is inflating, and in fact, you can see it in
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True inflation dot com. You will see that the dollar
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is inflating slowly. I think today it's two point seven,
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so that's about two percent, and they update this daily,
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this inflation number daily, which is interesting in itself, but
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at any rate, you can see that the dollar is
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slowly inflating. At some point it will accelerate the inflation
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until maybe, just maybe, the FED is going to lose
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control of inflation and that's going to be very bad.
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And hopefully by then, you know, stable coins like IRMA
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will be able to help people fight inflation because IRMA
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will not inflate with a dollar, and so far. There
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are only two stable coins right now that can do that.
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One is from FRACTS it's called FBI fras price Index,
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and the other one is ours IRMA. And how do
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so we have competition?
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How does that stable coin work in terms of technically,
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how does it work and how does it not inflate?
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Yeah, so a lot of people are skeptical, but actually
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it's not too complicated. It's backed by six other top
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stable coins in Solana, so we don't expect any of
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those six to lose value, you know, like us d
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T number one, right, you don't expect not to lose
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value tomorrow, I mean. And then we also have us DC,
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So anybody with USDT can buy Irma. Anybody with us
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DC can swap for Irma, anybody with p y U
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s D And there are three others. And if we
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focus on just one stable coin, let's say us d T,
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how does irma work well when inflation starts? Well, first,
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first of all, let me talk about what stable coin
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really is. Current ones the USD back stable coins. What
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these really are are called substitutes, meaning that when you
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mint USDT, you pay a dollar, right, and when you
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redeem your dollar, you get a dollar back. So your
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mid price is equal to your redemption price is equal
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to one us dollar. And that's the promise all the time.
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That will not change, meaning that if the dollar inflates dollar,
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USDT will also inflate with IRMA. Our mid price is
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independent of the redemption price. That's one thing. The mid
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price depends on inflation. The redemption price depends on how
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much reserve we have of USDT. Toresea in the beginning.
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The mid price just like any other stable going The
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mid price is equal to redemption prize equal to one dollar.
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Let's say we start at that point and people buy
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IRMA right, and so our reserve will increase. Let's say
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our reserve is now a million USDT. We also have
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a million IRMA out there in people's hands. Our redemption
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price is one dollar. Because the redemption price is just
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equal to the amount of reserve that we have amount
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of USD divided by IRMA in circulation, which in this
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case is one right, they're just equal. Our mid price
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is set to one dollar. Now inflation goes up. Let's
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say inflation goes up to let's say two point three percent. Well,
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let's give a better example today. It's two point seven,
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So two point seven percent the price of the mid
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price of will go up by how much it is
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about two percent the inflation. So now the price is
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one point zero zero seven. Now people say they see
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that and they say, okay, they'll buy more of it,
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more of your man. Now we have a seven seventy
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basis point what do you called it spread in the price, right,
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meaning that that seventy basis point will accumulate into the reserve.
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So we don't take that as profit. The price above
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the normal one. The mint price went up, that spread
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is fed back or deposited back into the boats, into
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the reserve boats. So what's going on is that even
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though at first the redemption price did not is not
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equal to the mint price, it will eventually cuts up
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because there will be more and more going into the
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reserve until it becomes also equal to the mint price
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at some point. So that's how it works basically.
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Interesting, So your if I understand it's correct, Your your
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minting is exposed to inflation, right.
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Yes, it's tied to inflation. The mint price, how much
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you pay in order to get one erama, will increase
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depending on inflation.
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And the price of arama post minting, which is the
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market price, right or the effects price is what is?
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What's what's the risk of that is? Now the user
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knows the inflation rate and they knows the minting price.
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So how how do you stabilize the effects rate the
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one for one, is it coded in the smart contracts
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or is it index to something we control.
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We can control the mind price and the redemption price,
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but we cannot control the market price. There will be
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arbita juriors coming in between the redemption price and the
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mid price. Right, they will have to buy a lot
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of irma and then they will use that for you know,
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for arbitrage. And so the market price we have no
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control over that. It will be somewhere between the redemption
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price and the min price. And when people panic and
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they see it's working, you know, it may hit the
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mid price. It cannot go above it because we have
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a huge order. This is going to happen in Metiora.
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By the way, Mitiora is a dex in Solana.
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On the institutional side, where do you see adoption for
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IRMA going on the institutional side.
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If let's say give an example, I'll say a venture
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capitalist before they invest their money they have what is
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called dry powder, right, yes, and dry power means it's
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ready to go, ready to invest, meaning it should be
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in cash form. Right when money is inflating, What do
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these companies do while their money is in dry powder?
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They must do something right in order to avoid inflation.
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So institutionally, this is one example where if you put
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your money in IRMA, you will be protected from inflation.
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IRMA does not give yield. There's no yield here. All
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it is is about inflation protection. That's it.
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But there are regular regulatory considerations that you are facing
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right now with launching AIRBA or.
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Yes. So of course this requires the opinion of lawyers, right,
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and we are talking to lawyers, and so far what
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I'm hearing is good because of the Genius Act, we
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are backed by all compliant stable coins. In other words,
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the compliant I mean there's all stable coins that are
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backing YARMA as reserves are all compliant. So how can
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we be non compliant if all of the reserved stable
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coins are compliant?
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So you're, yeah, you're that's that's a really interesting point.
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But you're also so when you say back, it's actual
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stable coins being bought and put into treasury or index
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part contract.
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So in order for you to buy AMA, the only
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way you can buy it is by having us D T,
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USD C P Y was the the three others that
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we have in our lists.
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It is the buyers. The buyers stable coins that's being
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used to back the earma they're minting.
333
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Yes, so all of those stable coins that we received
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from the buyers, we'll go into the boat. We can't
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use those, we can't spend those. And that's the rule, right,
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And then the amount of backing that you have, uh,
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should be enough so that you don't run out of
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money if everyone tries to redeem their ERAMA. And that's
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the way it is, because our redemption price is always
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according to how much backing we have.
341
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:53.759
Really interesting concept, Carlos. I think this is something the
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industry what generally accept and there is a big gap
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or stable coins to hedge them against inflation because those
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stable coins are backed by inflationary assets, right, uh yeah,
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And it comes down to the issue of scale, right,
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how do you scale it? I guess you know, And
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that's more of a business question, right than a technical one,
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because you have the technical stuff in place for sure,
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the fundamentals are there. From from what I'm hearing, and
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then it comes to the question of scaling and and
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getting people to actually adopt this business, and is this
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what are the lessons you've learned from your previous ventures
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to to scale such you know, businesses, but also how
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do you foresee scaling and being able to you know,
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achieve massive or exponential growth within the next three to
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five years.
357
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Yeah, that's that's a hard question to answer because I'm
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not a marketing person. I'm an engineer.
359
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:11.240
Comes down to, right, Yeah, and however, I've learned that, Yeah,
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the first thing that's really important, because this is all
361
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about money, Right, The first.
362
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Thing, the very first thing, is trust, and then and
363
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then after that is getting people to know about it.
364
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The reason I'm talking to you now is because of that. Right,
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you are the first person to talk to me. You're
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the first blogger that to talk to me, and I
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00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.279
really appreciate that you're helping is spread the good news
368
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and I really appreciate that.
369
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.319
Yeah, I appreciate. I appreciate you being on and I
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think you know, it's the whole concept and mission of
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this industry is to be able to build an inclusive
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global economy that has access readily available access to financial
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services and banking beyond bank and all these good things
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00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:06.200
that bitcoin was built around that suddenly we lost track of,
375
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you know, after massive adoption by institutionalization and centralization of
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the technologies that were built around bitcoin and blockchain. But
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you know, I think there are there's still hope for
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people who are building like yourselves, and for people who
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are reaching out like myself, to spread the word about
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readily available tools and technologies that allow people to get
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you know, to become part of this global society that
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we're all a part of. And the digital econo continues
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00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.920
to grow. It's backed by you know, energy and infrastructure
384
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:47.279
that is powering and fueling this digital ecosystem. So yeah,
385
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:51.079
we're all over the place trying to decentralize and distribute
386
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.640
our resources. I appreciate you being on as well.
387
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:58.519
I think, Look, I don't understand why people are sad
388
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.559
that bitcoin and is now adopted by you know, the
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00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:07.559
big leagues and the mainstream. I think that's really good news.
390
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:12.440
It is still available to any person who wants to
391
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.200
buy it, and of course the price has gone up,
392
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.640
but it doesn't mean you can buy a little bit,
393
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.119
you know, a Satoshi will be worth a lot in
394
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.640
the future, So even a couple of Satoshi's is going
395
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:28.200
to be good. I would buy it. I used to
396
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.599
have a lot of it in my hands, and I
397
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.039
regret having lost all of those. I only have very
398
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:38.640
little now. And for anybody who's thinking, you know, future
399
00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:43.839
and don't be sad that it's now in the big leagues,
400
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:48.519
that's great news. Bitcoin is now in the big league exactly.
401
00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:51.039
And it doesn't mean that you can't buy it anymore.
402
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:51.920
You can still buy it.
403
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.559
Yeah, there's a big misconception that the people see in
404
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.799
the industry that you know, institutional institutional players are coming
405
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.880
in so now are kind of intimidated by you know,
406
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:04.400
going and getting bitcoin, or they feel it's too late
407
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:07.720
because you know, they first saw it at ten thousand
408
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:09.960
dollars and now they're seeing it at one hundred thousand
409
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:15.000
or that number. So I believe exactly in what you said,
410
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:19.400
it's not too late to buy bitcoin. I personally would
411
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:23.359
buy it even at this current price we're in, you know,
412
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.400
and I always said, if the market is treating bitcoin
413
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.920
as a commodity, or if the institutions that are coming
414
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.000
in are using bitcoin as a store of value and
415
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:34.319
an alternative to gold. Then you can easily compare gold's
416
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.559
market cap to bitcoin's market cap and forecast what that
417
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:40.880
would look like over a period of five to ten years.
418
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.680
And you know, the way the trend is moving and
419
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:49.039
the generational wealth shifting hands, you know, from one generation
420
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.200
to another, and the digitalization of the world, it's kind
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00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.799
of obvious that new generation of family offices and wealth
422
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:00.920
wealthy individuals and families are an institutions are going to
423
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:05.279
be adopting you know, stable coins like IRMA or USDT,
424
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:10.359
or commodities like bitcoin and others versus gold, silver, and
425
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.400
money market funds or treasury bonds. Right, And that's just
426
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.079
my opinion as someone coming from that generation and being
427
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:25.119
part of this transformation. Right, my next generation, my kids
428
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:29.279
and their kids, they're not going to adopt you know,
429
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.359
goal for example. So if you just compare it to
430
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:35.480
gold in its market cap and you see the fundamentals
431
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.960
of the technology itself and the fact that it's you know,
432
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.759
the scarcity angle and the supply and demand fundamentals and
433
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:47.039
how the algorithm works, you can you know, eventually forecast
434
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.599
what this would look like and the price it has, say,
435
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:54.880
is actually very low and undervalued considered to the network
436
00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:58.480
and the technology and the software underlying bitcoin, and how
437
00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.759
it's increasing.
438
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:04.440
Inval Like right now the price has gone down. This
439
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.079
is a good opportunity to buy, I would say, I
440
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.960
believe so if you you know, if you feel like,
441
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:15.359
oh it's too high, I can't buy it anymore. Actually,
442
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.440
this is a good time because you know it dips,
443
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.880
and whenever it dips, it's a great time to buy.
444
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:26.880
So go for it in the long I think the
445
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.000
basic idea is go for it on the long term,
446
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.880
but the short term, because if you're thinking short term,
447
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.359
you will not earn anything.
448
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:38.839
Well, yeah, most short term investors in crypto end up
449
00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:43.759
getting hurt unless they're really seasoned traders that are you know,
450
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.920
following the market very closely. But I've seen a lot
451
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:53.160
of devastating stories and I've never been a good trader,
452
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.359
so I don't play in that arena. I'm more of
453
00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.279
a fundamentals person and look at the market from MHM,
454
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.359
from a five year horizon, right.
455
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.079
Yeah.
456
00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:09.599
I wanted to just get your because of your background,
457
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:14.720
your expertise, and and and your you're honestly, from my perspective,
458
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.319
engineers are geniuses, right, because I've never been an engineer,
459
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.440
So I'd like to learn from your perspective on the
460
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:29.359
the the the tools and resources you would recommend two
461
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.400
builders in this in your space, in the stable coin space,
462
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.160
what what are the tools and resources that you believe
463
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.319
they should start with. Whether it's you know, on a
464
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.480
on an educational level or whether it's on a technical level.
465
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.880
How do you see someone coming into the space trying
466
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:50.000
to build that could learn from your experience with a
467
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:50.960
few words.
468
00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:01.119
Yeah, so it's I think too bad. The Solana the
469
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:05.359
the people who built Solana chose Rust to be their
470
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:12.440
native language. I'm trying to use Rust right now, and
471
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.160
I can tell you the learning curve is really steep.
472
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:24.319
A computer language is supposed to hide the complexities of
473
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.839
a system in order to be able to build an
474
00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:30.559
even more complex system. In the case of Rust, what
475
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:35.000
has happened is that it has exposed all the details
476
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.599
of the system in order for you to be able
477
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:41.799
to the program, and so it puts a lot of
478
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:46.640
burden in the program. RUSS is supposed to protect you
479
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:54.160
from mistakes, but the fact that it surfaces all those
480
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:00.599
complexities is what makes it difficult and it's I think
481
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:06.960
it's really bad. On the other hand, we have Etherium.
482
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:11.079
If you count the number of programmers who program for Ittherium,
483
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the number would be much larger than the programmers who
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program for Solanna just because of that. It's just the
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learning curve. And for Ituium instead of Rust, you have
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what is called Solidity. So I think it's worth any
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programmer to learn about Solidity solidity because Solidity is a
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modern language. It hides the complexities and you know, it's
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object oriented. Rust is not object oriented, and that's my
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really gripe with it.
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Yeah, I think you're correct. You should always choose computer
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languages that you know, have a lower barrier to entry
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and quicker learning curve. And Solidity has been proven to
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00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.039
be a great language. Yes, a lot of developers have
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00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.319
worked I'm not a software engineer, but I've worked with
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a lot of software developers and they seem to like it,
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and we seem to get what we want out of
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00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:14.079
it fairly quickly, and and that is great. So you know, again,
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00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:17.199
I want to thank you for joining the show. I
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00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:20.880
appreciate to speak with builders like yourself and people who
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00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:25.079
have an amazing perspective on the industry and and and
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money in general, and that they're they're they're building the
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future of money and the software of money. I think
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that's very important to have, you know, strong backbone for
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digital money or digital assets in general, because of you know,
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00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.199
where the world is going in terms of digitalization, and
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current legacy systems are are risky to use, honestly, and
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they're not future proof. Yes, we've all seen that.
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Now, some people think brypto is, you know, a lot
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of risk, but actually it's the other way around, right,
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I mean it's it's a fiat money that has a
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lot to risk.
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Way less risky than using a bank account, to be honest,
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if you know how to safeguard your assets, of course,
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and if you're on the right platforms. So yeah, thank
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you again, Carlos. We've learned from you that.
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Thank you too. Yeah, my pleasure with you.
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I've learned from you that money is a social contract,
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money should be inflationary because of velocity, and that bitcoin
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00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.679
has nearly a velocity of zero, but it is never
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too early to buy. And any builders that are trying
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to build in the industry focus on languages that are
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not hard to learn, such as solidity. So that you
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can minimize complex computer languages. Again, Carlos, thank you for
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joining us on drilling into crypto.
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00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.000
Thanks for drilling into crypto with us. If you enjoyed
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00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.480
our discussion, please give us a like on your podcast
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00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.840
app or social media, and don't forget to subscribe. Join
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00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:57.440
us next time when we will deliver more perspectives on crypto,
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00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:01.119
asset mining, energy markets, and the global financial revolution.
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Welcome to Drilling into Crypto. I'm your host, Mohammed al MASRII.
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Every week I speak to the leaders that are driving
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the global financial revolution. Drilling into Crypto puts the spotlight
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on the importance of crypto assets, on energy markets and
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on global monetary policy. Welcome to Drilling into Crypto. Joining
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me today is Carlos Tappang, veteran engineer, bitcoin minor and
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founder of rock Stable, building inflation resistant money for global economy.
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Hi Carlos, thank you for joining Drilling into Crypto. How
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are you doing today?
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Great? Thank you all. Thank you for having me here.
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It's my pleasure. Thank you. I like to start off
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by giving you the chance to introduce yourself to the
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audience and telling us about your journey, what you were
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doing before rock Stable, and how you got into the
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world of cryptocurrency and stable coins.
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Yeah. I come from the software background, so I'm a
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software engineer. I've been for a long time. I came
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to know bitcoin, I think in twenty eleven. Yeah, I
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wrote actually a blog in twenty eleven, in March of
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twenty eleven about bitcoin, and I was skeptical, of course
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at that time, whether it will gain traction at all,
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because I imagine that a big company has to back
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it before it can you know, gain followers. But as
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you know now, I mean it did gain followers slowly
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at first and then now accelerating really fast. And that's
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what's interesting about crypto. It's very help to predict what's
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going to happen next. And so I went into bitcoin mining,
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being skeptical at first and then finally being somebody who
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bought it and actually doing mining for it. At that time,
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that was two thousand and fourteen, twenty thirteen, bitcoin just
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exceeded thousand dollars. I bought it about I think it
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was seventy dollars, and with the gain, I was able
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to start the business bitcoin mining. There's a place here
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in the state of Washington, USA where electricity costs only
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three three cents per kilo one hour. Sickly imagine that.
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And so there were people, not just me, who were
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inviting bitcoin miners at that time. You know, people would
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buy their own mining rigs and they would then look
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for places to put their mining rig and one of
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those is my place. So I had several customers send
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their mining rigs to me, and that's how I got started.
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That's amazing. What is that moment that you realized, you know,
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this industry was, what's going to be your life's work
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during that journey.
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Yeah, at the time that I studied bitcoin, I was
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already studying money because I was curious what money really is.
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The question that kept coming to my mind is what
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is money really? And so I read books and I'm
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glad that the first book I read is a tick book.
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It's a by Bond Missus called The Theory of Money
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and Credit. It was difficult to read, okay, difficult to understand,
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but I went through it and that opened my eyes.
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And I read more books, more recent monetary economists, and
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so now I have a good grasp. I would say, oh,
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what is money? It's very complicated. Okay, It's very simple
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for us because you know, we use it every day, right,
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We get paid in money and then we spend it.
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It's very simple for us. But the concept of money
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involves all in society. We're all basically trying to survive
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as a society, and we transact with each other, and
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our means or major means of transaction is with money.
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Without money, I mean, we cannot be where we are now.
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So that's what money is, and that's what started me
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going with bitcoin. And then now I realized that bitcoin
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is not money because it is extremely deflationary. That's the
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term for it. Deflationary is when money is increasing in
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value and you don't want that because then nobody will
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spend it, right and if nobody spends it, it will
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not circulate. The velocity is almost zero, and that's exactly
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what's happening now. Bitcoin as a velocity of almost zero,
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whereas stable coins the velocity is really high. That's money.
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Money is something that changes hands all the time. You
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can save it if you want, but it is naturally
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designed to have a little bit of inflation, so when
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you spend it, you don't regret spending it. And that's
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the trick to who money is. So you don't want
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your money to be like bitcoin. If it is bitcoin,
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nobody is going to spend it. You will not circulate.
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But if you have it inflating a little bit, then
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people will not regret spending it and it will circulate
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in the economy. And that's the whole thing about stable coins.
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That seems to be the main challenge that bitcoin as
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a technology, or even as a as a so called
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currency that has been facing is the ability to be
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used as a medium of exchange. And most investors and
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people that hold bitcoin are considering it as a store
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of value or as an alternative to gold. When you know,
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institutions get into it, and hedge funds and exchange traded
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funds start to build treasury around it. It's definitely being
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used as a store of value versus a medium of exchange.
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And the velocity, as you said, is very low, even
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maybe zero as you mentioned, Yeah.
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I would call it an investment because it is increasing
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in value, definitely increasing.
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Yeah, it is definitely an investment at least that's the
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way the market is treating it, right, even though that's
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not what it was built for.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and yeah, your view on money as it relates
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to society, I mean it seems like money, money has.
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Money has the traits of a social contract, right where
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binds people together and it puts us all on a
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on a specific path and provides order and and you know,
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order out of sometimes even when there's chaos, money brings
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order out of chaos because.
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Of exactly Yes, yes, there is a term for it
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that economists, you say, is called the invisible hand you
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know from address myth. Yes, nobody really designed money for us.
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We all happen to trust one currency. And that's why
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the US dollar is number one, because it's had a
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good track record, right, and we trust it since you know,
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we were born. The US dollar has been there and nobody,
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nobody questions it. I mean you would receive or you
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would accept US dollars with no questions asked. And that's
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the term actually used by economists n QA no questions asked.
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When money has come to that level, that means that
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it will circulate because people readily accepted with no questions.
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That's the definition of money. Actually, Yeah, something that you
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would accept with no questions asked.
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I would accept bitcoin with no questions asked, for sure,
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but it's it's not it's not something that someone wants
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to spend or give me for any types of yes services,
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though I've been discussions with On the last episode, I
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had uh Benoit and Sanci two episodes ago from BTSF
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and and they're building a bitcoin credit. So there's they're
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they're lending in bitcoin right as bitcoin denominated debt or
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bitcoin Wow, So I guess that is something that fuels
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the ecosystem and and builds the velocity that you mentioned
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that is lacking in.
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In is this about, Uh, you use bitcoin as a
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collateral so you can borrow money.
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No, what they're doing is pretty much the opposite is
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where they're collateralizing your equipment or your projects or your
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assets and they're providing bitcoin as the credit. So it's bitcoin.
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You're lending out bitcoin. Yes, yeah, wow, that's crazy. Yes,
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that's crazy.
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It is crazy. But I think that is what's missing
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in the industry, is to have bitcoin circulate in that fashion.
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What's your thoughts on that.
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Yeah, that's interesting because lenders would love to lend out bitcoin,
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but as a borrower, you don't want to borrow bitcoin.
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It would be when it goes up, it would be
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very difficult for you to pay back. Right.
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Well, when when you're lending against bitcoin mining infrastructure, you're
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basically basing your payouts or or repayments on the mining operations, right,
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So they only lend for minors. This is this is
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a key point.
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Oh, this is for minors. Okay, But even then, though,
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what do miners do with it when they borrow? So
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would they convert it to dollars and spend it that
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way or I don't understand what they would do.
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My understanding is that if if if you receive bitcoin
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in as a form as a bitcoin denominated credit, you
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would have to convert it to us DT or stable
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coin in order to pay the vendors with it. Right,
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because most of the vendors across the value chain except
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stable coin mostly u s DT on that. But okay,
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that's what you would have to do, I guess, to
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make those vendor payments and build your project, right.
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Okay, So these are minors, so they would buy their equipment,
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they would buy their mining rigs, and they need stable
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coins for so they convert the bitcoin into you know,
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stable coins and then they spend it. Now the bitcoin
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is gone, they will have to mine it and then
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pay back. Okay, I get it.
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Now that brings that velocity that you mentioned, right, because
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because bitcoin is not being used as a form of
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a currency widely and most people want to hold it.
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But now you got when you got lenders doing bitcoin
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denominated dead, when you got eventually vendors accepting bitcoin, and
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certain retail institutions as well. They accept bitcoin as a
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form of payment. Though people are are not that motivated
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to sell it because of the way the market is treating.
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It right, and I don't think anybody would be motivated
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to borrow it also, except probably minors, because imagine if
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you borrow bitcoin now converted to stable coins, spend it,
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and now you have to pay it back in bitcoin,
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you can't have a hard time.
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If yeah, has to be the opposite in that case,
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you need to borrow cash or stable coin and buy
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bitcoint yes, right, yeah, but in the minors case, I
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think I think it's it's an interesting scenario, but I'd
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like to learn more about what you're building on the
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stable coin side, and you know, give us some fundamentals
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about that.
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Yes. So I started the Rock Stable which is my
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current company, in twenty eighteen, and the basic idea then
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was to come up with a stable coin that can
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be used to send money overseas. So it's basically a
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cross border money transfer system that we build and we
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put our own stable coin. We use our own stable
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coin called roks rocks, which exists in Solana. So we
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did that and we've been doing that since twenty twenty two.
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But you know, we didn't gain too many users until
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now p y USD came out right from PayPal and
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p y USD is now used exactly the same way
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that they imagine rocks to be used. But you know,
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we are a small company. We were never funded and
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so we basically just had a pilot and that's it.
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Now we are coming up with a new product called IRMA.
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IRMA it stands for Inflation Resistant medium of Account. So
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the big thing is that it is inflation resistant. All
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of the US dollar backed stable coins right now will
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inflate with a dollar, and everyone knows that the dollar
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is inflating, and in fact, you can see it in
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True inflation dot com. You will see that the dollar
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is inflating slowly. I think today it's two point seven,
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so that's about two percent, and they update this daily,
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this inflation number daily, which is interesting in itself, but
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at any rate, you can see that the dollar is
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slowly inflating. At some point it will accelerate the inflation
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until maybe, just maybe, the FED is going to lose
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control of inflation and that's going to be very bad.
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And hopefully by then, you know, stable coins like IRMA
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will be able to help people fight inflation because IRMA
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will not inflate with a dollar, and so far. There
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are only two stable coins right now that can do that.
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One is from FRACTS it's called FBI fras price Index,
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and the other one is ours IRMA. And how do
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so we have competition?
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How does that stable coin work in terms of technically,
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how does it work and how does it not inflate?
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Yeah, so a lot of people are skeptical, but actually
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it's not too complicated. It's backed by six other top
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stable coins in Solana, so we don't expect any of
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those six to lose value, you know, like us d
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T number one, right, you don't expect not to lose
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value tomorrow, I mean. And then we also have us DC,
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So anybody with USDT can buy Irma. Anybody with us
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DC can swap for Irma, anybody with p y U
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s D And there are three others. And if we
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focus on just one stable coin, let's say us d T,
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how does irma work well when inflation starts? Well, first,
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first of all, let me talk about what stable coin
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really is. Current ones the USD back stable coins. What
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these really are are called substitutes, meaning that when you
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mint USDT, you pay a dollar, right, and when you
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redeem your dollar, you get a dollar back. So your
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mid price is equal to your redemption price is equal
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to one us dollar. And that's the promise all the time.
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That will not change, meaning that if the dollar inflates dollar,
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USDT will also inflate with IRMA. Our mid price is
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independent of the redemption price. That's one thing. The mid
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price depends on inflation. The redemption price depends on how
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much reserve we have of USDT. Toresea in the beginning.
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The mid price just like any other stable going The
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mid price is equal to redemption prize equal to one dollar.
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Let's say we start at that point and people buy
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IRMA right, and so our reserve will increase. Let's say
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our reserve is now a million USDT. We also have
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a million IRMA out there in people's hands. Our redemption
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price is one dollar. Because the redemption price is just
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equal to the amount of reserve that we have amount
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of USD divided by IRMA in circulation, which in this
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case is one right, they're just equal. Our mid price
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is set to one dollar. Now inflation goes up. Let's
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say inflation goes up to let's say two point three percent. Well,
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let's give a better example today. It's two point seven,
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So two point seven percent the price of the mid
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price of will go up by how much it is
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about two percent the inflation. So now the price is
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one point zero zero seven. Now people say they see
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that and they say, okay, they'll buy more of it,
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more of your man. Now we have a seven seventy
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basis point what do you called it spread in the price, right,
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meaning that that seventy basis point will accumulate into the reserve.
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So we don't take that as profit. The price above
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the normal one. The mint price went up, that spread
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is fed back or deposited back into the boats, into
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the reserve boats. So what's going on is that even
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though at first the redemption price did not is not
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equal to the mint price, it will eventually cuts up
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because there will be more and more going into the
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reserve until it becomes also equal to the mint price
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at some point. So that's how it works basically.
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Interesting, So your if I understand it's correct, Your your
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minting is exposed to inflation, right.
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Yes, it's tied to inflation. The mint price, how much
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you pay in order to get one erama, will increase
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depending on inflation.
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And the price of arama post minting, which is the
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market price, right or the effects price is what is?
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What's what's the risk of that is? Now the user
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knows the inflation rate and they knows the minting price.
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So how how do you stabilize the effects rate the
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one for one, is it coded in the smart contracts
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or is it index to something we control.
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We can control the mind price and the redemption price,
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but we cannot control the market price. There will be
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arbita juriors coming in between the redemption price and the
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mid price. Right, they will have to buy a lot
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of irma and then they will use that for you know,
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for arbitrage. And so the market price we have no
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control over that. It will be somewhere between the redemption
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price and the min price. And when people panic and
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they see it's working, you know, it may hit the
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mid price. It cannot go above it because we have
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a huge order. This is going to happen in Metiora.
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By the way, Mitiora is a dex in Solana.
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On the institutional side, where do you see adoption for
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IRMA going on the institutional side.
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If let's say give an example, I'll say a venture
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capitalist before they invest their money they have what is
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called dry powder, right, yes, and dry power means it's
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ready to go, ready to invest, meaning it should be
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in cash form. Right when money is inflating, What do
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these companies do while their money is in dry powder?
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They must do something right in order to avoid inflation.
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So institutionally, this is one example where if you put
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your money in IRMA, you will be protected from inflation.
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IRMA does not give yield. There's no yield here. All
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it is is about inflation protection. That's it.
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But there are regular regulatory considerations that you are facing
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right now with launching AIRBA or.
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Yes. So of course this requires the opinion of lawyers, right,
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and we are talking to lawyers, and so far what
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I'm hearing is good because of the Genius Act, we
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are backed by all compliant stable coins. In other words,
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the compliant I mean there's all stable coins that are
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backing YARMA as reserves are all compliant. So how can
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we be non compliant if all of the reserved stable
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coins are compliant?
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So you're, yeah, you're that's that's a really interesting point.
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But you're also so when you say back, it's actual
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stable coins being bought and put into treasury or index
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part contract.
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So in order for you to buy AMA, the only
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way you can buy it is by having us D T,
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USD C P Y was the the three others that
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we have in our lists.
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It is the buyers. The buyers stable coins that's being
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used to back the earma they're minting.
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Yes, so all of those stable coins that we received
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from the buyers, we'll go into the boat. We can't
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use those, we can't spend those. And that's the rule, right,
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And then the amount of backing that you have, uh,
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should be enough so that you don't run out of
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money if everyone tries to redeem their ERAMA. And that's
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the way it is, because our redemption price is always
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according to how much backing we have.
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Really interesting concept, Carlos. I think this is something the
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industry what generally accept and there is a big gap
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or stable coins to hedge them against inflation because those
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stable coins are backed by inflationary assets, right, uh yeah,
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And it comes down to the issue of scale, right,
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how do you scale it? I guess you know, And
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that's more of a business question, right than a technical one,
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because you have the technical stuff in place for sure,
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the fundamentals are there. From from what I'm hearing, and
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then it comes to the question of scaling and and
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getting people to actually adopt this business, and is this
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what are the lessons you've learned from your previous ventures
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to to scale such you know, businesses, but also how
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do you foresee scaling and being able to you know,
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achieve massive or exponential growth within the next three to
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five years.
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Yeah, that's that's a hard question to answer because I'm
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not a marketing person. I'm an engineer.
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Comes down to, right, Yeah, and however, I've learned that, Yeah,
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the first thing that's really important, because this is all
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about money, Right, The first.
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Thing, the very first thing, is trust, and then and
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then after that is getting people to know about it.
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The reason I'm talking to you now is because of that. Right,
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you are the first person to talk to me. You're
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the first blogger that to talk to me, and I
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really appreciate that you're helping is spread the good news
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and I really appreciate that.
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Yeah, I appreciate. I appreciate you being on and I
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think you know, it's the whole concept and mission of
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this industry is to be able to build an inclusive
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global economy that has access readily available access to financial
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services and banking beyond bank and all these good things
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that bitcoin was built around that suddenly we lost track of,
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you know, after massive adoption by institutionalization and centralization of
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the technologies that were built around bitcoin and blockchain. But
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you know, I think there are there's still hope for
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people who are building like yourselves, and for people who
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are reaching out like myself, to spread the word about
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readily available tools and technologies that allow people to get
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you know, to become part of this global society that
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we're all a part of. And the digital econo continues
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to grow. It's backed by you know, energy and infrastructure
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that is powering and fueling this digital ecosystem. So yeah,
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we're all over the place trying to decentralize and distribute
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our resources. I appreciate you being on as well.
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I think, Look, I don't understand why people are sad
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that bitcoin and is now adopted by you know, the
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big leagues and the mainstream. I think that's really good news.
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It is still available to any person who wants to
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buy it, and of course the price has gone up,
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but it doesn't mean you can buy a little bit,
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you know, a Satoshi will be worth a lot in
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the future, So even a couple of Satoshi's is going
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to be good. I would buy it. I used to
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have a lot of it in my hands, and I
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regret having lost all of those. I only have very
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little now. And for anybody who's thinking, you know, future
399
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and don't be sad that it's now in the big leagues,
400
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that's great news. Bitcoin is now in the big league exactly.
401
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And it doesn't mean that you can't buy it anymore.
402
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You can still buy it.
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Yeah, there's a big misconception that the people see in
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the industry that you know, institutional institutional players are coming
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in so now are kind of intimidated by you know,
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going and getting bitcoin, or they feel it's too late
407
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because you know, they first saw it at ten thousand
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dollars and now they're seeing it at one hundred thousand
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or that number. So I believe exactly in what you said,
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it's not too late to buy bitcoin. I personally would
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buy it even at this current price we're in, you know,
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and I always said, if the market is treating bitcoin
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as a commodity, or if the institutions that are coming
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in are using bitcoin as a store of value and
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an alternative to gold. Then you can easily compare gold's
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market cap to bitcoin's market cap and forecast what that
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would look like over a period of five to ten years.
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And you know, the way the trend is moving and
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the generational wealth shifting hands, you know, from one generation
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to another, and the digitalization of the world, it's kind
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of obvious that new generation of family offices and wealth
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wealthy individuals and families are an institutions are going to
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be adopting you know, stable coins like IRMA or USDT,
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or commodities like bitcoin and others versus gold, silver, and
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money market funds or treasury bonds. Right, And that's just
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my opinion as someone coming from that generation and being
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part of this transformation. Right, my next generation, my kids
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and their kids, they're not going to adopt you know,
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goal for example. So if you just compare it to
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gold in its market cap and you see the fundamentals
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of the technology itself and the fact that it's you know,
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the scarcity angle and the supply and demand fundamentals and
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how the algorithm works, you can you know, eventually forecast
434
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.599
what this would look like and the price it has, say,
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00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:54.880
is actually very low and undervalued considered to the network
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00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:58.480
and the technology and the software underlying bitcoin, and how
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00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.759
it's increasing.
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00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:04.440
Inval Like right now the price has gone down. This
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00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.079
is a good opportunity to buy, I would say, I
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00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.960
believe so if you you know, if you feel like,
441
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:15.359
oh it's too high, I can't buy it anymore. Actually,
442
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.440
this is a good time because you know it dips,
443
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.880
and whenever it dips, it's a great time to buy.
444
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:26.880
So go for it in the long I think the
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00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.000
basic idea is go for it on the long term,
446
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.880
but the short term, because if you're thinking short term,
447
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.359
you will not earn anything.
448
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:38.839
Well, yeah, most short term investors in crypto end up
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00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:43.759
getting hurt unless they're really seasoned traders that are you know,
450
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.920
following the market very closely. But I've seen a lot
451
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:53.160
of devastating stories and I've never been a good trader,
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00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.359
so I don't play in that arena. I'm more of
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00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.279
a fundamentals person and look at the market from MHM,
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00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.359
from a five year horizon, right.
455
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.079
Yeah.
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00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:09.599
I wanted to just get your because of your background,
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00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:14.720
your expertise, and and and your you're honestly, from my perspective,
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00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.319
engineers are geniuses, right, because I've never been an engineer,
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00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.440
So I'd like to learn from your perspective on the
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00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:29.359
the the the tools and resources you would recommend two
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00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.400
builders in this in your space, in the stable coin space,
462
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.160
what what are the tools and resources that you believe
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00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.319
they should start with. Whether it's you know, on a
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00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.480
on an educational level or whether it's on a technical level.
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00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.880
How do you see someone coming into the space trying
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00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:50.000
to build that could learn from your experience with a
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00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:50.960
few words.
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00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:01.119
Yeah, so it's I think too bad. The Solana the
469
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:05.359
the people who built Solana chose Rust to be their
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00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:12.440
native language. I'm trying to use Rust right now, and
471
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.160
I can tell you the learning curve is really steep.
472
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:24.319
A computer language is supposed to hide the complexities of
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00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.839
a system in order to be able to build an
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00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:30.559
even more complex system. In the case of Rust, what
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00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:35.000
has happened is that it has exposed all the details
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00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.599
of the system in order for you to be able
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00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:41.799
to the program, and so it puts a lot of
478
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:46.640
burden in the program. RUSS is supposed to protect you
479
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:54.160
from mistakes, but the fact that it surfaces all those
480
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:00.599
complexities is what makes it difficult and it's I think
481
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:06.960
it's really bad. On the other hand, we have Etherium.
482
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:11.079
If you count the number of programmers who program for Ittherium,
483
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:14.079
the number would be much larger than the programmers who
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00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.640
program for Solanna just because of that. It's just the
485
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:22.880
learning curve. And for Ituium instead of Rust, you have
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00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:27.200
what is called Solidity. So I think it's worth any
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00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:32.359
programmer to learn about Solidity solidity because Solidity is a
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00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:38.519
modern language. It hides the complexities and you know, it's
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00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.519
object oriented. Rust is not object oriented, and that's my
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00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:44.880
really gripe with it.
491
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.599
Yeah, I think you're correct. You should always choose computer
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00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:53.880
languages that you know, have a lower barrier to entry
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00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.960
and quicker learning curve. And Solidity has been proven to
494
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.039
be a great language. Yes, a lot of developers have
495
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.319
worked I'm not a software engineer, but I've worked with
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00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:06.359
a lot of software developers and they seem to like it,
497
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:08.559
and we seem to get what we want out of
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00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:14.079
it fairly quickly, and and that is great. So you know, again,
499
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:17.199
I want to thank you for joining the show. I
500
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:20.880
appreciate to speak with builders like yourself and people who
501
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:25.079
have an amazing perspective on the industry and and and
502
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:29.440
money in general, and that they're they're they're building the
503
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:34.440
future of money and the software of money. I think
504
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:38.840
that's very important to have, you know, strong backbone for
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00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:42.519
digital money or digital assets in general, because of you know,
506
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.199
where the world is going in terms of digitalization, and
507
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:49.559
current legacy systems are are risky to use, honestly, and
508
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.719
they're not future proof. Yes, we've all seen that.
509
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:56.760
Now, some people think brypto is, you know, a lot
510
00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:58.960
of risk, but actually it's the other way around, right,
511
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:01.800
I mean it's it's a fiat money that has a
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00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:02.599
lot to risk.
513
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.119
Way less risky than using a bank account, to be honest,
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00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:08.039
if you know how to safeguard your assets, of course,
515
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:11.880
and if you're on the right platforms. So yeah, thank
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00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:14.360
you again, Carlos. We've learned from you that.
517
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.320
Thank you too. Yeah, my pleasure with you.
518
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.360
I've learned from you that money is a social contract,
519
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:26.039
money should be inflationary because of velocity, and that bitcoin
520
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.679
has nearly a velocity of zero, but it is never
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00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.840
too early to buy. And any builders that are trying
522
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:36.239
to build in the industry focus on languages that are
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00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.039
not hard to learn, such as solidity. So that you
524
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.960
can minimize complex computer languages. Again, Carlos, thank you for
525
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:44.679
joining us on drilling into crypto.
526
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.000
Thanks for drilling into crypto with us. If you enjoyed
527
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.480
our discussion, please give us a like on your podcast
528
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.840
app or social media, and don't forget to subscribe. Join
529
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:57.440
us next time when we will deliver more perspectives on crypto,
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00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:01.119
asset mining, energy markets, and the global financial revolution.
