WEBVTT
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Welcome to another episode of the Decoding Cross Border E-Commerce Podcast.
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And Aaron, we have a guest today.
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A special guest.
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A special guest.
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Traveled all the way in from Washington, D.C.
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to visit us today.
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Yeah.
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Josh A.
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Wakins.
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Thank you for being here.
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Thank you for having me.
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Okay.
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Josh is uh have you been on the podcast before, Dude?
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This is my this is my inaugural.
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Oh, really?
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Okay.
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Yes, sir.
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Oh, wow.
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Okay.
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Welcome.
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A lot of people know Josh.
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Josh has been with Zonos for how long now?
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Cutting close to 11.
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11 years.
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Getting close.
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See, people listening probably thought you're going to say 11 months.
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I had to clarify that is years.
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When I came into St.
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George, Josh is the one that was super hospitable and uh really helped me introduce me to a lot of the uh um uh uh the people in town.
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I mean, everywhere, everyone from the city to um other business owners.
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Anyways, I don't want you know, this isn't uh a lot of people know Josh.
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I think it's more like everybody knows Josh.
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Everybody knows Josh, that's true.
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So hey, this is okay, but now why is Josh not in St.
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George and living in St.
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George because he was so good at creating those connections in town and telling the story about Zonos and what we're trying to achieve.
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So anyway, so we uh we just uh I turned to Josh and said, Hey, do you and the family want to move to Washington, DC?
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And he said no.
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No, no, and then he thought about it.
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Yeah, and then he said yes.
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Said yes, yeah, yeah, which is it's been fantastic to have you out there.
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So um, yeah, thank you for for for making that move.
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I hope you're enjoying it.
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But now but it also allows us to I and I'm super excited we got you back here to talk about talk on this podcast about a fun topic.
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Right.
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Today we okay, so you two were in Texas, right?
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Mm-hmm at the CBP trade and cargo security summit.
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All right.
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I I wasn't there, and so um I'll ask the dumb questions, right?
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I want to I just but what let's start with um what was the theme?
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What was it, what was the what was the feel of this conference?
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What what was the kind of the overarching takeaway at at this summit last week?
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Go for it, Josh.
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This week.
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What was your takeaway?
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Well, it seemed like they were this is a a traditional conference that they that they've held.
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It got it got delayed actually.
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It should have been in um April, but it got pushed back because the government was shut down for a little while.
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So it's kind of been I I don't know if it's if do if if just more has been building, but but with with the EOs and all of the disruption that is that has happened, it kind of seemed like they came with the posture of explaining their position and explaining where and what they needed from what they wanted to hear from industry.
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Like like they really did have they had many, many listening sessions.
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They they they definitely wanted to show a posture of we need to figure this out together.
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Yeah.
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But what what would you say?
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What would you say the EO was the the one EO that was the recurring talking point?
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It was it was enforcement, yeah.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Strengthening customs enforcement.
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Yes, yeah.
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This is the one that we have an open letter on.
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So when you say a listening, I don't know for me and and uh and our many listeners, what does that mean?
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Well, it's a listening session, yeah.
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Yeah, what does that look like?
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Okay, well, so they've been hosting these on calls as well, where where they basically put a panel of their experts, like like every panel was was customs employees, like like high up customs people.
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They put their experts up there and they opened the mic.
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That's great.
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And and in some of their phone call listening sessions, they've been listening to industry, but then not commenting.
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I found them to be very um back and forthy.
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They were they were much more ready to like engage and even even fire back and forth across the microphone um this time, and they were taking notes, like like legitimately, there were people up there writing stuff down because they have a big task ahead of them with with the to to build out all this enforcement, and yeah, they're looking for the industry to help.
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I mean, I honestly the cool thing about this conference is that that's really the whole point is for them, you get what three days of industry coming to a conference that is put on by CBP, and so all the panels, all the different discussions, CVP is running it, it's their conference.
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It's not like you have a bunch of private sector people doing sponsorships, sponsorships and paying political.
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Do you get a panel?
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No, this is CBP.
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They they line up, they want to be able to educate on what's going on and what they're doing, make sure brokers and the industry as a whole like are hearing from them of what what's happening, but it's also the same in inverse, which is they want to be able to hear from the industry.
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So it's really cool to be able to walk around.
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They they limit the number of people that can be there in person, and but then they also have a bunch uh of sessions remotely for people to go in and get content.
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But you can you can walk around and really see um a lot of decision makers on a regular basis in the halls, have conversations.
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Um, so I I commend them for actually doing this kind of conference because um the more they can talk to the industry and the industry can talk to them, uh the better solutions come out of it.
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How is the industry feeling?
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Like what was what was the what were the feels versus previous conferences or versus um how things have kind of worked with CVP in the past?
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Because obviously there's been a lot of changes into the US, the minimis has been removed in our world, right?
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E-commerce, the terror tariffs have gone up, enforcement's going up, penalties are increasing.
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So, what's what's the mood?
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Ooh, you talked to you the mood of the industry, yeah.
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Um guarded, uh unsure, uh a little skeptical on things.
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And the the message, and they're skeptical because they're just worried.
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I mean, that's probably the the one word to sum it up is they talked a lot about this EO and enforcement.
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And the one thing, the the one message CBP was trying to get across to everybody, because anybody that's coming to this this session, they're the ones trying to be compliant.
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Those are all the good actors, and CBP really did have that message to them of hey, you're not the ones we're really trying to target here.
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We're trying to go that like this should actually be a positive thing for anybody that's trying to be compliant and do things right.
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Um but they also don't there's a certain bar of compliance they need to meet, and it's changed though, too, right?
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They're very nervous.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, they're very nervous.
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So it's like, hey, you're the good actors, and there's more to do, but we know you're the good actors.
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Is that am I summing that up, you think?
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Yeah, I think so.
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I think so.
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Oftentimes they would they're not like hey, you're okay, don't worry.
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It's like, yeah, there's a there's a new there's a new EO and the bar's been raised, and we know you can meet it because you're you're the good actors, right?
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And and they're but and they're saying, hey, you're here to learn about what to do.
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And and there's messages of, hey, start getting ready.
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Here's some things to do, um, and you'll you'll be okay.
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But there's still a lot of worry and angst, I think, amongst everyone of like, okay, but what does this really mean?
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Is because this isn't just uh this isn't just theoretical.
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I was talking to some brokers that are like, yeah, I I know of three brokers that were shut down last week.
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And they're seeing they're seeing the industry changing, and you know, and then I start, I'm in there and I'm start looking up stats on how many brokers have been shut down in the last little bit, and I'm like, holy cow.
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It is true.
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And I then I try to weed out um, you know, importers.
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They're you know, C VP's doing this cleansing of all this, these, these importers that are dormant and doing all this.
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Importer records, yeah.
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And they're also they're also cleaning up a lot of the bad brokers and they're shutting them down.
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And we know of stories.
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I'm talking to people there, they know of stories, so they're seeing disruption happening to their industry and other brokers around.
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And so, of course, they're gonna naturally worry about themselves as well.
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Part of what um CBP did was they came to a lot of these sessions and um tried to share their perspective, they tried to tell their story to to the industry in a way and say, well, um we deal with, you know, uh that they they they they shared a lot of stats.
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How much how much comes in, how many cyber attacks they they ward off every single day, how many um like of these like transshipment schemes and things that they're popping up and that they're blocking down all the time.
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They they tried to I thought they did a good job of sharing some of those examples, which I think was uh was their way of saying this is what we're up against, and this is what we're going to fix for the for all Americans, and now we got to figure out how to how to do this together.
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Yeah, and there's a there was a partnership theme to it too, like everyone working together.
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Well, which makes sense because if the EEO is targeting the importer record, and and the importer record sometimes isn't isn't gonna be able to be a foreign IOR as it was historically, you can see how CBP is like, we have this problem, we have this problem.
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Like now that you have more obligation, how do you help us, right?
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Is that kind of would that be accurate?
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It's like how do we how do we get here to prevent more of this together?
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And that's the goal.
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Is that I would say there's a little bit of a uh to be honest, there's a little bit of a chicken in the egg rub going on because because we all know that the enforcement is coming, and we kind of want them to tell us what they're gonna do, and they kind of want to when you say they are them, are you talking about the industry kind of wants CBP?
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The industry would like to have regs.
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Yes.
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And and I think CBP would like to give regs, but they also want to hear from the in they need to hear from the industry because what they don't want to do is give regs, and then we just run around and cry foul because they're all broken and they're all bad.
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They would rather understand better what those what to do before all those regs come out.
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You know, and there was actually a pretty pretty clear example.
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I think it was Brandon Lord that was talking to this one.
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He kind of he kind of hit it really hard, this point, really hard.
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Um, and he was he used an ex a previous example of a program they put out to work with the industry, and they didn't get a lot of takers, a lot of participants.
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And then he was talking about, hey, we put out this 64 question questionnaire, and he they're pretty, you know, they're pretty funny talking about it.
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It's like, well, you got 90 days, that's about one and a half questions a day, or one and a half days per question.
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I think, you know, and it's just like we want to hear from you.
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Um, let's and if you don't, like we're gonna have to come up with regs anyways, and then it you may not like it, but like we want to hear from you so we make sure we actually put things out the right way so they work.
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So, why do you think they haven't heard historically?
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Is it fear?
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Wait, they haven't heard who like like he said, hey, we want to hear from you.
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Is it just the method of trying to gather feedback?
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Or do you think there's some fear at like asking questions and you're getting a rating?
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They are like certainly, there's certainly some like if I if I come to you and let me ask you a question.
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So if I have an employee that's doing this and uh they yeah, is that okay?
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You know, it's like you know, cuff me now, you know what I mean?
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Like for sure, there's definitely some some nervousness on the on the industry side to be like, how how how transparent uh are we gonna have to be?
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And and and then there's uh the the word that doesn't get said, and they they they joked about it, the F word, is facilitation.
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Because in previous, uh let's say previous administrations, the the they didn't like the pendulum word, so I won't use the pendulum uh analogy, but in previous administrations, there had been uh a larger focus on facilitation and a lesser focus on enforcement.
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And it feels like in this uh environment there's going to be uh a larger focus on enforcement.
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And so the way customs was trying to to couch it, whether they whether industry believes them yet or not, was if we get the enforcement right, it enables better facilitation.
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Like like for legitimate trade, yeah.
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Legitimate trade is going to thrive under our success.
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So if I'm if I'm hearing you right, the the concern in the the the the the voice, the the message from customs is and was kind of like hey, look, yeah, facilitation is important, but right now enforcement is what matters.
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However, if we're doing enforcement and you're a good actor, now we can facilitate and you're golden.
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Is that but but people are maybe not feeling that yeah, I mean proof's in the pudding, right?
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And it hasn't been built yet, and I think I think that's where people are apprehensive, but theoretically, it totally makes sense.
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Like you know, if it's if the good actors are are doing their job right, uh the trade's gonna be fine for them.
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If you're a bad actor, it's not gonna be as good as it used to be.
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How um is there room for the industry right now, right?
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Even the good actors, to improve.
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Absolutely.
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And and I wonder if that's where some of the angst comes from, is they know that like there there does there's work needs to be done, right?
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It's not just status quo, even if you were a good one, may not be good enough in the future.
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Is that would that maybe be accurate?
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I think that could be some of it.
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Um I'll tell you what I think it is.
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I I said it just a second ago.
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The devil is in the details, and the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
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And right now, the industry has the devil they know.
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Right.
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And and and they have been compliant and they have been good, but with the devil they know.
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But they have the devil they don't know are the details that are coming down the pipe that they can't that they can't get a read on.
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And and CVP is saying, well, we can't write them without your help.
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That's where I think the angst is right now, is there is that's what they're afraid of.
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Yeah, I mean it's it's lip service right now, but they they nobody has any practical experience with what this new world's going to look like.
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And so that's yeah, and the way you frame that is w really summed up well was kind of going in my head.
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I just didn't know how to get it out.
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And so that exactly, exactly.
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I think I think they see the bar moving, yeah.
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They don't know exactly what that's going to look like yet, and change is hard.
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Yeah.
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And there's a lot of unknowns.
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They don't know the they know what's coming in front of them, they don't know the the devil, they know what what's the other one.
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The devil they know is better than the one they don't.
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The one they don't know is is an unknown.
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So speaking of the details then, what would be like a few specific examples, right?
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That like um is a detail, right?
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Like specifically, like, okay, um knowing your customer or uh having the export paperwork.
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Like what are what are some of those like uh what are what are what are like the details that they're like how much do I need to do here exactly?
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And they're like, I'm not gonna, I can't, yeah.
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I think um I'm gonna I'm gonna take the easy one that's in my head.
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And then Josh, you probably have some stuff you can add to it.
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I know he was able to attend more sessions than than I was able to.
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I had to, I had to uh I couldn't attend the whole thing.
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But um there was one theme that kept coming up multiple times, and it was a lot about knowing your customer.
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It it relates to that.
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But CVP, you could tell, were just fed up with going to brokers for more information.
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And it went and one example that was given is like a POA, right?
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Yep.
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And they get like a shoulder shrug, like, wait, how did you have authority to do this?
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And like there's no paper trail, there's no justification.
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There's just like I got it from a friend of a friend.
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You know, I got a spreadsheet from a friend of a friend, and it has all these.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it was just like, you know, I can just picture the brokers with their pockets pulled out, just going, like, I I don't know.
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Just that's I did the entry, but I don't know why.
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Like, I've I've got I've got no explanation for for what I did.
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That's the part that's that I think came up multiple times.
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I don't know what your thoughts were.
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:48.000
Well, I was gonna to to your question, I was gonna say uh one of the ones that uh everybody seems to be wanting some um clarity around is knowing who your um your warehouse or your your merchant or shipper is and and and and how like do we have to call them every Tuesday and verify that there's a human behind there?
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.200
Like like what's what's the rule?
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:59.120
Like like like what is because because like maybe we were getting away with um too much, but what is where how far are you gonna go?
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:08.720
Like, am I gonna have biometric scan people's eyeballs before they send me their uh um you know their entry so that I know that that's a that's a real person?
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:17.039
And then you also I also noticed um when they're talking about CTPAT, as that almost becoming more of the standards.
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.079
They kept saying CTPAT was voluntary.
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:20.400
Yeah.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:27.599
But but we explain for everyone what is CTPAT before you like uh I I an acronym, I know you know it's an acronym acronyms.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.799
It's been around for 24 and a half years, almost 25 years.
00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.519
It's um a certification program, kind of a trust, it's a trusted trader program.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.359
You have to go through a whole certification process.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.200
So you get, you know, you get bet preferential treatment and things like that.
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:42.559
Um I don't remember exactly.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.240
It came into play after 9-11.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:49.680
Like there was actually quite a lot of discussion around 9-11, which would be today, 25 years ago, right?
00:17:49.920 --> 00:18:00.400
Um and it came into play to help so the industry could come up and help America basically be more secure, yeah, be safer.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.839
That was that was really how it started, and it was a little rough at the beginning.
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.599
Customs trade partnership against terrorism.
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:08.880
CTPAP.
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:09.599
Okay.
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.240
Yeah, okay, now down, okay, now continue on CTP.
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:25.519
Yeah, so that that's kind of been uh that that's been like an advanced certification that not everybody has to get or anything, but it felt like they're bringing that down into more of the hey, everybody should probably get CTPAT.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:31.440
Yeah, it's it's voluntary, but it kind of felt like it was the new like voluntole.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.079
When you say everyone's kind of being voluntold to hey, you should probably go get CTPAT certified.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:36.559
Yeah.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.680
Okay.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.000
So any others?
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.279
Because I want to I want here here's what I'm hearing so far, and I can let you add.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:48.559
One, you need to survive because this is all about audits, right?
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.720
Like it's like because you can put entries in, you can put whatever you want.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:01.200
That thing can clear, and everybody thinks things are hunky-dory until customs comes to knock in and they say, Can you produce the POA for this?
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:08.400
Like, where do you can you you know, show me some paperwork um backing this shipment, right?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:13.839
Um, POA, uh whole lots of other things, right?
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.960
To to validate that.
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.240
And then another one is knowing your customer, right?
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.160
Who's shipping this, right?
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.519
Are are you doing any kind of are you doing any kind of vetting?
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:30.559
Don't forget, right now with um forced labor, like like like there's a whole bunch of that honestly.
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:32.160
That was the other theme was supply chain.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:38.160
What was the was knowing your supply chain all the way all the way back or or part way back or how many layers back?
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:38.720
You know what I mean?
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.079
That was uh if there was another theme, it was around supply chain.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:47.519
So so yeah, to your point, it was it was not just know your customer, it was kind of know your customers, customers, customers.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:53.599
Aaron, how do these unique challenges parallel with the e-com world, right?
00:19:53.759 --> 00:20:02.160
Which is low value shipments with what the you know stuff like a POA, there's other parallels to that.
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.720
Knowing of the customer, like how is this solved in low value shipments?
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:23.759
It's a lot harder to solve, uh, for one, because in the if I look at how it's typically been done, it's been for the higher value shipments, fewer players, more more manual interactions, I'd say emails, messages, phone calls to get information, a lot of back and forth.
00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:31.599
Site inspections where where custom people actually go to warehouses in Malaysia somewhere and walk around and and and do checks and things like that.
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.039
That the all that happens.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:39.759
And then I look at e-com, and it's a new problem here in the US because we've had de minimis forever, everything was just flowing in.
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:54.559
Now all of a sudden you want to you know put all these enforcement rules that really were put in place for all of these these high value, more formal clearance, and you have now a ton of microtransactions and micro shippers.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.519
How do you do it?
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:57.279
The only answer is technology.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.319
Yeah, the only answer.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:20:59.200
There's no other way.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:20:59.680
Yeah.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:10.160
And and and I think that that is a lot of the angst right now in the industry for the the low value shipments is how do we get technology that scales?
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:11.759
Because this seems overwhelming.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:19.039
And look, that's a it's a it's hard for us, it's hard for um anyone, but guess what?
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.799
If I'm hearing you right, customs will come a knock-in.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.799
And you want to be on the you don't want to be one of the brokers that get shuts shut down.
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:39.119
Um you want to be able to show that you've had a reasonable amount of care to comply.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:40.319
Reasonable amount of care.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.400
Reasonable care, lots of discussion.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:42.960
Yeah.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.640
And it you don't have to be p perfect, you gotta do your best.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.960
And you gotta be responsible with with what you're doing, right?
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:51.279
Yeah.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.200
Um and then you're there's my go ahead.
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.599
My opinion on best, right?
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.359
Um perfect, right?
00:21:59.519 --> 00:21:59.680
Yes.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.839
There's there's um nobody can be perfect.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:09.039
I I I imagine this is uh graded on a curve scenario.
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:18.240
And if you're gonna be graded on a curve, C VP is gonna go and look at what can this company do versus this broker versus this broker.
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:24.400
And it feels like they might be grading on a curve a little bit.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:37.440
And so as the bar gets risen due to brokers that are able to be better at compliance and this, those are the good actors, the ones there or whatever the ones that are luring learning, or in our space, right?
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:43.359
It's like the technology to prove out these things, and you now get graded on a curve.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:45.519
Yep, you totally do, totally you.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.839
Um and and they are trying to, it was pretty clear to me.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.400
If I don't know if you got the same read, Josh, that they they are trying to raise the bar.
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:59.599
That's why they're kind of pushing CT pat and the and the messaging is like, guys, it's time to level up.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:07.119
Uh and the ones that don't, what was working in the past is not gonna work in the future.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:07.440
Yeah.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:08.640
And that was pretty clear.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.480
And and they might die, which I learned a little fact this week.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:13.279
Oh.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.480
Did you know that when when you die, the last part of your body that stops working are your pupils?
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.519
Well, really, I didn't know.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:24.160
Why?
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:24.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.680
They dilate.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.599
Okay, I was about, I was really getting worried.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839
We weren't going to get the joke.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.240
Um, hey, uh, shout out to Julie for the the so uh Josh's wife gave me the beanie.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.160
And now it is the middle of summer.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.319
That's where I got my it is 104 degrees outside, so I am like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:45.920
I'm but I'm wearing the beanie.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.759
And because this this episode was uh, I think perfect.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.799
Uh um perfect episode to talk, and and just love having Josh in town even better.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:02.000
Anything else that um uh I'll do I'll do a final layup question then and and it you probably already answered it.
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:03.200
We talked about the theme.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.799
What was the goal?
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.079
What's their what is the final goal for C BP?
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.960
In in what from the conference or just in general?
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:21.920
Yeah, the goal generally, uh you think that their goal is security and compliance.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:22.559
Yep, security.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:22.960
Period.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:24.079
That's what I was just gonna say.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:25.039
That's their goal.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:31.759
That's that's it's not it's not to keep packages moving at all costs, it's not to like that is their end goal.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.079
They don't want to disrupt the world doing it, right?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:34.240
Right.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:35.440
That's the goal, right?
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:42.000
They're they're trying to find the best path to that end goal, um, but that is 100% their goal.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:42.240
Yeah.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:42.720
Yeah.
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:43.119
All right.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:44.559
Anything else?
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:45.440
All right.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:46.160
I think that's great.
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.680
Unless you want me to start cracking off more jokes.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.279
No, no, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:50.960
Okay, we're we're uh we're at time.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:51.920
I've got okay.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.799
Thank you everyone for uh uh listening to another episode.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.319
And Josh, thanks for being on.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:05.680
And uh uh we just love having you out in DC and contributing to uh just just the education around kind of what we're doing, but the whole industry generally.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.920
And um looking forward to the next one.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:08.400
Well thanks.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:14.160
It's an honor and a pleasure to represent Zonos and and to do it in DC.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.319
That this is a yeah, this is this is a team that I'm proud to represent.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:19.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:20.319
Well, ditto.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:21.519
All right, thank you everyone.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:21.839
See ya.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:22.960
Thanks, guys.
00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:10.960
Welcome to another episode of the Decoding Cross Border E-Commerce Podcast.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:12.880
And Aaron, we have a guest today.
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:13.919
A special guest.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:14.800
A special guest.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:17.359
Traveled all the way in from Washington, D.C.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:18.640
to visit us today.
00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:19.440
Yeah.
00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:20.239
Josh A.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:21.120
Wakins.
00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:21.920
Thank you for being here.
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:23.039
Thank you for having me.
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:23.440
Okay.
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:25.760
Josh is uh have you been on the podcast before, Dude?
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:27.440
This is my this is my inaugural.
00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:28.320
Oh, really?
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:28.640
Okay.
00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:29.440
Yes, sir.
00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:30.000
Oh, wow.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:30.399
Okay.
00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:30.960
Welcome.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:32.640
A lot of people know Josh.
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.719
Josh has been with Zonos for how long now?
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:38.000
Cutting close to 11.
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:38.799
11 years.
00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:39.439
Getting close.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.000
See, people listening probably thought you're going to say 11 months.
00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:44.159
I had to clarify that is years.
00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:45.200
When I came into St.
00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:58.560
George, Josh is the one that was super hospitable and uh really helped me introduce me to a lot of the uh um uh uh the people in town.
00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:02.799
I mean, everywhere, everyone from the city to um other business owners.
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:06.239
Anyways, I don't want you know, this isn't uh a lot of people know Josh.
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:07.760
I think it's more like everybody knows Josh.
00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:08.959
Everybody knows Josh, that's true.
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:14.239
So hey, this is okay, but now why is Josh not in St.
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:15.439
George and living in St.
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:24.159
George because he was so good at creating those connections in town and telling the story about Zonos and what we're trying to achieve.
00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:30.879
So anyway, so we uh we just uh I turned to Josh and said, Hey, do you and the family want to move to Washington, DC?
00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:32.400
And he said no.
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:35.599
No, no, and then he thought about it.
00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:37.120
Yeah, and then he said yes.
00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:41.280
Said yes, yeah, yeah, which is it's been fantastic to have you out there.
00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:45.280
So um, yeah, thank you for for for making that move.
00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:46.239
I hope you're enjoying it.
00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:52.640
But now but it also allows us to I and I'm super excited we got you back here to talk about talk on this podcast about a fun topic.
00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:53.040
Right.
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:55.840
Today we okay, so you two were in Texas, right?
00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.159
Mm-hmm at the CBP trade and cargo security summit.
00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:01.439
All right.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:06.079
I I wasn't there, and so um I'll ask the dumb questions, right?
00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:12.639
I want to I just but what let's start with um what was the theme?
00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.919
What was it, what was the what was the feel of this conference?
00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:21.599
What what was the kind of the overarching takeaway at at this summit last week?
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:22.560
Go for it, Josh.
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:22.960
This week.
00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:24.319
What was your takeaway?
00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:33.599
Well, it seemed like they were this is a a traditional conference that they that they've held.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:34.879
It got it got delayed actually.
00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:40.240
It should have been in um April, but it got pushed back because the government was shut down for a little while.
00:02:40.400 --> 00:03:04.719
So it's kind of been I I don't know if it's if do if if just more has been building, but but with with the EOs and all of the disruption that is that has happened, it kind of seemed like they came with the posture of explaining their position and explaining where and what they needed from what they wanted to hear from industry.
00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:08.159
Like like they really did have they had many, many listening sessions.
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:13.840
They they they definitely wanted to show a posture of we need to figure this out together.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:14.400
Yeah.
00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:15.919
But what what would you say?
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:21.439
What would you say the EO was the the one EO that was the recurring talking point?
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:23.759
It was it was enforcement, yeah.
00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:24.639
Yeah, 100%.
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:26.240
Strengthening customs enforcement.
00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:26.719
Yes, yeah.
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.719
This is the one that we have an open letter on.
00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:36.000
So when you say a listening, I don't know for me and and uh and our many listeners, what does that mean?
00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:37.280
Well, it's a listening session, yeah.
00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:38.159
Yeah, what does that look like?
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:49.759
Okay, well, so they've been hosting these on calls as well, where where they basically put a panel of their experts, like like every panel was was customs employees, like like high up customs people.
00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:53.199
They put their experts up there and they opened the mic.
00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:54.159
That's great.
00:03:54.400 --> 00:04:00.000
And and in some of their phone call listening sessions, they've been listening to industry, but then not commenting.
00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.080
I found them to be very um back and forthy.
00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:26.399
They were they were much more ready to like engage and even even fire back and forth across the microphone um this time, and they were taking notes, like like legitimately, there were people up there writing stuff down because they have a big task ahead of them with with the to to build out all this enforcement, and yeah, they're looking for the industry to help.
00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:45.279
I mean, I honestly the cool thing about this conference is that that's really the whole point is for them, you get what three days of industry coming to a conference that is put on by CBP, and so all the panels, all the different discussions, CVP is running it, it's their conference.
00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:50.800
It's not like you have a bunch of private sector people doing sponsorships, sponsorships and paying political.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:51.920
Do you get a panel?
00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:53.360
No, this is CBP.
00:04:53.439 --> 00:05:07.519
They they line up, they want to be able to educate on what's going on and what they're doing, make sure brokers and the industry as a whole like are hearing from them of what what's happening, but it's also the same in inverse, which is they want to be able to hear from the industry.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.040
So it's really cool to be able to walk around.
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:17.360
They they limit the number of people that can be there in person, and but then they also have a bunch uh of sessions remotely for people to go in and get content.
00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:25.040
But you can you can walk around and really see um a lot of decision makers on a regular basis in the halls, have conversations.
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:34.160
Um, so I I commend them for actually doing this kind of conference because um the more they can talk to the industry and the industry can talk to them, uh the better solutions come out of it.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:35.519
How is the industry feeling?
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:45.199
Like what was what was the what were the feels versus previous conferences or versus um how things have kind of worked with CVP in the past?
00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.879
Because obviously there's been a lot of changes into the US, the minimis has been removed in our world, right?
00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:57.040
E-commerce, the terror tariffs have gone up, enforcement's going up, penalties are increasing.
00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.279
So, what's what's the mood?
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:04.240
Ooh, you talked to you the mood of the industry, yeah.
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:11.600
Um guarded, uh unsure, uh a little skeptical on things.
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.720
And the the message, and they're skeptical because they're just worried.
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:22.160
I mean, that's probably the the one word to sum it up is they talked a lot about this EO and enforcement.
00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:30.480
And the one thing, the the one message CBP was trying to get across to everybody, because anybody that's coming to this this session, they're the ones trying to be compliant.
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:37.120
Those are all the good actors, and CBP really did have that message to them of hey, you're not the ones we're really trying to target here.
00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:43.040
We're trying to go that like this should actually be a positive thing for anybody that's trying to be compliant and do things right.
00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:48.000
Um but they also don't there's a certain bar of compliance they need to meet, and it's changed though, too, right?
00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:48.879
They're very nervous.
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:49.519
Absolutely.
00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:50.560
Yeah, they're very nervous.
00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:56.160
So it's like, hey, you're the good actors, and there's more to do, but we know you're the good actors.
00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:57.839
Is that am I summing that up, you think?
00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:58.720
Yeah, I think so.
00:06:58.959 --> 00:06:59.279
I think so.
00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.079
Oftentimes they would they're not like hey, you're okay, don't worry.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:12.399
It's like, yeah, there's a there's a new there's a new EO and the bar's been raised, and we know you can meet it because you're you're the good actors, right?
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:16.639
And and they're but and they're saying, hey, you're here to learn about what to do.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:19.199
And and there's messages of, hey, start getting ready.
00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:23.519
Here's some things to do, um, and you'll you'll be okay.
00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:28.879
But there's still a lot of worry and angst, I think, amongst everyone of like, okay, but what does this really mean?
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:33.920
Is because this isn't just uh this isn't just theoretical.
00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:39.279
I was talking to some brokers that are like, yeah, I I know of three brokers that were shut down last week.
00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:50.000
And they're seeing they're seeing the industry changing, and you know, and then I start, I'm in there and I'm start looking up stats on how many brokers have been shut down in the last little bit, and I'm like, holy cow.
00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:50.639
It is true.
00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.279
And I then I try to weed out um, you know, importers.
00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:58.879
They're you know, C VP's doing this cleansing of all this, these, these importers that are dormant and doing all this.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:00.079
Importer records, yeah.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.720
And they're also they're also cleaning up a lot of the bad brokers and they're shutting them down.
00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:06.319
And we know of stories.
00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:13.839
I'm talking to people there, they know of stories, so they're seeing disruption happening to their industry and other brokers around.
00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.879
And so, of course, they're gonna naturally worry about themselves as well.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:34.559
Part of what um CBP did was they came to a lot of these sessions and um tried to share their perspective, they tried to tell their story to to the industry in a way and say, well, um we deal with, you know, uh that they they they they shared a lot of stats.
00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:46.879
How much how much comes in, how many cyber attacks they they ward off every single day, how many um like of these like transshipment schemes and things that they're popping up and that they're blocking down all the time.
00:08:46.960 --> 00:09:05.279
They they tried to I thought they did a good job of sharing some of those examples, which I think was uh was their way of saying this is what we're up against, and this is what we're going to fix for the for all Americans, and now we got to figure out how to how to do this together.
00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.919
Yeah, and there's a there was a partnership theme to it too, like everyone working together.
00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:28.000
Well, which makes sense because if the EEO is targeting the importer record, and and the importer record sometimes isn't isn't gonna be able to be a foreign IOR as it was historically, you can see how CBP is like, we have this problem, we have this problem.
00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.759
Like now that you have more obligation, how do you help us, right?
00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:33.200
Is that kind of would that be accurate?
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.919
It's like how do we how do we get here to prevent more of this together?
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:38.720
And that's the goal.
00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:57.440
Is that I would say there's a little bit of a uh to be honest, there's a little bit of a chicken in the egg rub going on because because we all know that the enforcement is coming, and we kind of want them to tell us what they're gonna do, and they kind of want to when you say they are them, are you talking about the industry kind of wants CBP?
00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.399
The industry would like to have regs.
00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:00.960
Yes.
00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:13.440
And and I think CBP would like to give regs, but they also want to hear from the in they need to hear from the industry because what they don't want to do is give regs, and then we just run around and cry foul because they're all broken and they're all bad.
00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:20.080
They would rather understand better what those what to do before all those regs come out.
00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.720
You know, and there was actually a pretty pretty clear example.
00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:25.120
I think it was Brandon Lord that was talking to this one.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.720
He kind of he kind of hit it really hard, this point, really hard.
00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:37.120
Um, and he was he used an ex a previous example of a program they put out to work with the industry, and they didn't get a lot of takers, a lot of participants.
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:44.240
And then he was talking about, hey, we put out this 64 question questionnaire, and he they're pretty, you know, they're pretty funny talking about it.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:49.600
It's like, well, you got 90 days, that's about one and a half questions a day, or one and a half days per question.
00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.639
I think, you know, and it's just like we want to hear from you.
00:10:52.799 --> 00:11:03.360
Um, let's and if you don't, like we're gonna have to come up with regs anyways, and then it you may not like it, but like we want to hear from you so we make sure we actually put things out the right way so they work.
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:06.480
So, why do you think they haven't heard historically?
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:07.759
Is it fear?
00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:11.120
Wait, they haven't heard who like like he said, hey, we want to hear from you.
00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.480
Is it just the method of trying to gather feedback?
00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:18.320
Or do you think there's some fear at like asking questions and you're getting a rating?
00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:23.120
They are like certainly, there's certainly some like if I if I come to you and let me ask you a question.
00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:28.480
So if I have an employee that's doing this and uh they yeah, is that okay?
00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:30.879
You know, it's like you know, cuff me now, you know what I mean?
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:40.000
Like for sure, there's definitely some some nervousness on the on the industry side to be like, how how how transparent uh are we gonna have to be?
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:47.679
And and and then there's uh the the word that doesn't get said, and they they they joked about it, the F word, is facilitation.
00:11:48.559 --> 00:12:05.360
Because in previous, uh let's say previous administrations, the the they didn't like the pendulum word, so I won't use the pendulum uh analogy, but in previous administrations, there had been uh a larger focus on facilitation and a lesser focus on enforcement.
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:12.080
And it feels like in this uh environment there's going to be uh a larger focus on enforcement.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:26.720
And so the way customs was trying to to couch it, whether they whether industry believes them yet or not, was if we get the enforcement right, it enables better facilitation.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.960
Like like for legitimate trade, yeah.
00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.960
Legitimate trade is going to thrive under our success.
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:47.440
So if I'm if I'm hearing you right, the the concern in the the the the the voice, the the message from customs is and was kind of like hey, look, yeah, facilitation is important, but right now enforcement is what matters.
00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:55.440
However, if we're doing enforcement and you're a good actor, now we can facilitate and you're golden.
00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:00.879
Is that but but people are maybe not feeling that yeah, I mean proof's in the pudding, right?
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:07.440
And it hasn't been built yet, and I think I think that's where people are apprehensive, but theoretically, it totally makes sense.
00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:13.519
Like you know, if it's if the good actors are are doing their job right, uh the trade's gonna be fine for them.
00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.559
If you're a bad actor, it's not gonna be as good as it used to be.
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:24.159
How um is there room for the industry right now, right?
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.200
Even the good actors, to improve.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:30.159
Absolutely.
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:40.320
And and I wonder if that's where some of the angst comes from, is they know that like there there does there's work needs to be done, right?
00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:45.759
It's not just status quo, even if you were a good one, may not be good enough in the future.
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.879
Is that would that maybe be accurate?
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:50.799
I think that could be some of it.
00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:53.279
Um I'll tell you what I think it is.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:54.480
I I said it just a second ago.
00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.399
The devil is in the details, and the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:01.440
And right now, the industry has the devil they know.
00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:02.080
Right.
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.759
And and and they have been compliant and they have been good, but with the devil they know.
00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:14.320
But they have the devil they don't know are the details that are coming down the pipe that they can't that they can't get a read on.
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.159
And and CVP is saying, well, we can't write them without your help.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.840
That's where I think the angst is right now, is there is that's what they're afraid of.
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:28.399
Yeah, I mean it's it's lip service right now, but they they nobody has any practical experience with what this new world's going to look like.
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:33.679
And so that's yeah, and the way you frame that is w really summed up well was kind of going in my head.
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:34.799
I just didn't know how to get it out.
00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.200
And so that exactly, exactly.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:40.480
I think I think they see the bar moving, yeah.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:44.480
They don't know exactly what that's going to look like yet, and change is hard.
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:44.799
Yeah.
00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:46.399
And there's a lot of unknowns.
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.879
They don't know the they know what's coming in front of them, they don't know the the devil, they know what what's the other one.
00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:52.879
The devil they know is better than the one they don't.
00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:54.960
The one they don't know is is an unknown.
00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:59.679
So speaking of the details then, what would be like a few specific examples, right?
00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:03.679
That like um is a detail, right?
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:10.799
Like specifically, like, okay, um knowing your customer or uh having the export paperwork.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:18.639
Like what are what are some of those like uh what are what are what are like the details that they're like how much do I need to do here exactly?
00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.080
And they're like, I'm not gonna, I can't, yeah.
00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.559
I think um I'm gonna I'm gonna take the easy one that's in my head.
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.480
And then Josh, you probably have some stuff you can add to it.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:31.120
I know he was able to attend more sessions than than I was able to.
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.000
I had to, I had to uh I couldn't attend the whole thing.
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:41.120
But um there was one theme that kept coming up multiple times, and it was a lot about knowing your customer.
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:42.799
It it relates to that.
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:50.159
But CVP, you could tell, were just fed up with going to brokers for more information.
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.519
And it went and one example that was given is like a POA, right?
00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:54.159
Yep.
00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.559
And they get like a shoulder shrug, like, wait, how did you have authority to do this?
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.200
And like there's no paper trail, there's no justification.
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:03.759
There's just like I got it from a friend of a friend.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:08.240
You know, I got a spreadsheet from a friend of a friend, and it has all these.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:08.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:14.000
And it was just like, you know, I can just picture the brokers with their pockets pulled out, just going, like, I I don't know.
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.639
Just that's I did the entry, but I don't know why.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.840
Like, I've I've got I've got no explanation for for what I did.
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:22.720
That's the part that's that I think came up multiple times.
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:23.600
I don't know what your thoughts were.
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:48.000
Well, I was gonna to to your question, I was gonna say uh one of the ones that uh everybody seems to be wanting some um clarity around is knowing who your um your warehouse or your your merchant or shipper is and and and and how like do we have to call them every Tuesday and verify that there's a human behind there?
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.200
Like like what's what's the rule?
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:59.120
Like like like what is because because like maybe we were getting away with um too much, but what is where how far are you gonna go?
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:08.720
Like, am I gonna have biometric scan people's eyeballs before they send me their uh um you know their entry so that I know that that's a that's a real person?
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:17.039
And then you also I also noticed um when they're talking about CTPAT, as that almost becoming more of the standards.
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.079
They kept saying CTPAT was voluntary.
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:20.400
Yeah.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:27.599
But but we explain for everyone what is CTPAT before you like uh I I an acronym, I know you know it's an acronym acronyms.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.799
It's been around for 24 and a half years, almost 25 years.
00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.519
It's um a certification program, kind of a trust, it's a trusted trader program.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.359
You have to go through a whole certification process.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.200
So you get, you know, you get bet preferential treatment and things like that.
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:42.559
Um I don't remember exactly.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.240
It came into play after 9-11.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:49.680
Like there was actually quite a lot of discussion around 9-11, which would be today, 25 years ago, right?
00:17:49.920 --> 00:18:00.400
Um and it came into play to help so the industry could come up and help America basically be more secure, yeah, be safer.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.839
That was that was really how it started, and it was a little rough at the beginning.
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.599
Customs trade partnership against terrorism.
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:08.880
CTPAP.
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:09.599
Okay.
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.240
Yeah, okay, now down, okay, now continue on CTP.
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:25.519
Yeah, so that that's kind of been uh that that's been like an advanced certification that not everybody has to get or anything, but it felt like they're bringing that down into more of the hey, everybody should probably get CTPAT.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:31.440
Yeah, it's it's voluntary, but it kind of felt like it was the new like voluntole.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.079
When you say everyone's kind of being voluntold to hey, you should probably go get CTPAT certified.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:36.559
Yeah.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.680
Okay.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.000
So any others?
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.279
Because I want to I want here here's what I'm hearing so far, and I can let you add.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:48.559
One, you need to survive because this is all about audits, right?
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.720
Like it's like because you can put entries in, you can put whatever you want.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:01.200
That thing can clear, and everybody thinks things are hunky-dory until customs comes to knock in and they say, Can you produce the POA for this?
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:08.400
Like, where do you can you you know, show me some paperwork um backing this shipment, right?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:13.839
Um, POA, uh whole lots of other things, right?
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.960
To to validate that.
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.240
And then another one is knowing your customer, right?
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.160
Who's shipping this, right?
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.519
Are are you doing any kind of are you doing any kind of vetting?
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:30.559
Don't forget, right now with um forced labor, like like like there's a whole bunch of that honestly.
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:32.160
That was the other theme was supply chain.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:38.160
What was the was knowing your supply chain all the way all the way back or or part way back or how many layers back?
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:38.720
You know what I mean?
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.079
That was uh if there was another theme, it was around supply chain.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:47.519
So so yeah, to your point, it was it was not just know your customer, it was kind of know your customers, customers, customers.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:53.599
Aaron, how do these unique challenges parallel with the e-com world, right?
00:19:53.759 --> 00:20:02.160
Which is low value shipments with what the you know stuff like a POA, there's other parallels to that.
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.720
Knowing of the customer, like how is this solved in low value shipments?
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:23.759
It's a lot harder to solve, uh, for one, because in the if I look at how it's typically been done, it's been for the higher value shipments, fewer players, more more manual interactions, I'd say emails, messages, phone calls to get information, a lot of back and forth.
00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:31.599
Site inspections where where custom people actually go to warehouses in Malaysia somewhere and walk around and and and do checks and things like that.
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.039
That the all that happens.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:39.759
And then I look at e-com, and it's a new problem here in the US because we've had de minimis forever, everything was just flowing in.
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:54.559
Now all of a sudden you want to you know put all these enforcement rules that really were put in place for all of these these high value, more formal clearance, and you have now a ton of microtransactions and micro shippers.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.519
How do you do it?
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:57.279
The only answer is technology.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.319
Yeah, the only answer.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:20:59.200
There's no other way.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:20:59.680
Yeah.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:10.160
And and and I think that that is a lot of the angst right now in the industry for the the low value shipments is how do we get technology that scales?
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:11.759
Because this seems overwhelming.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:19.039
And look, that's a it's a it's hard for us, it's hard for um anyone, but guess what?
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.799
If I'm hearing you right, customs will come a knock-in.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.799
And you want to be on the you don't want to be one of the brokers that get shuts shut down.
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:39.119
Um you want to be able to show that you've had a reasonable amount of care to comply.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:40.319
Reasonable amount of care.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.400
Reasonable care, lots of discussion.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:42.960
Yeah.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.640
And it you don't have to be p perfect, you gotta do your best.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.960
And you gotta be responsible with with what you're doing, right?
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:51.279
Yeah.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.200
Um and then you're there's my go ahead.
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.599
My opinion on best, right?
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.359
Um perfect, right?
00:21:59.519 --> 00:21:59.680
Yes.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.839
There's there's um nobody can be perfect.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:09.039
I I I imagine this is uh graded on a curve scenario.
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:18.240
And if you're gonna be graded on a curve, C VP is gonna go and look at what can this company do versus this broker versus this broker.
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:24.400
And it feels like they might be grading on a curve a little bit.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:37.440
And so as the bar gets risen due to brokers that are able to be better at compliance and this, those are the good actors, the ones there or whatever the ones that are luring learning, or in our space, right?
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:43.359
It's like the technology to prove out these things, and you now get graded on a curve.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:45.519
Yep, you totally do, totally you.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.839
Um and and they are trying to, it was pretty clear to me.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.400
If I don't know if you got the same read, Josh, that they they are trying to raise the bar.
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:59.599
That's why they're kind of pushing CT pat and the and the messaging is like, guys, it's time to level up.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:07.119
Uh and the ones that don't, what was working in the past is not gonna work in the future.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:07.440
Yeah.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:08.640
And that was pretty clear.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.480
And and they might die, which I learned a little fact this week.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:13.279
Oh.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.480
Did you know that when when you die, the last part of your body that stops working are your pupils?
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.519
Well, really, I didn't know.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:24.160
Why?
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:24.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.680
They dilate.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.599
Okay, I was about, I was really getting worried.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839
We weren't going to get the joke.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.240
Um, hey, uh, shout out to Julie for the the so uh Josh's wife gave me the beanie.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.160
And now it is the middle of summer.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.319
That's where I got my it is 104 degrees outside, so I am like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:45.920
I'm but I'm wearing the beanie.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.759
And because this this episode was uh, I think perfect.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.799
Uh um perfect episode to talk, and and just love having Josh in town even better.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:02.000
Anything else that um uh I'll do I'll do a final layup question then and and it you probably already answered it.
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:03.200
We talked about the theme.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.799
What was the goal?
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.079
What's their what is the final goal for C BP?
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.960
In in what from the conference or just in general?
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:21.920
Yeah, the goal generally, uh you think that their goal is security and compliance.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:22.559
Yep, security.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:22.960
Period.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:24.079
That's what I was just gonna say.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:25.039
That's their goal.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:31.759
That's that's it's not it's not to keep packages moving at all costs, it's not to like that is their end goal.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.079
They don't want to disrupt the world doing it, right?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:34.240
Right.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:35.440
That's the goal, right?
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:42.000
They're they're trying to find the best path to that end goal, um, but that is 100% their goal.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:42.240
Yeah.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:42.720
Yeah.
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:43.119
All right.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:44.559
Anything else?
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:45.440
All right.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:46.160
I think that's great.
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.680
Unless you want me to start cracking off more jokes.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.279
No, no, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:50.960
Okay, we're we're uh we're at time.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:51.920
I've got okay.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.799
Thank you everyone for uh uh listening to another episode.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.319
And Josh, thanks for being on.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:05.680
And uh uh we just love having you out in DC and contributing to uh just just the education around kind of what we're doing, but the whole industry generally.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.920
And um looking forward to the next one.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:08.400
Well thanks.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:14.160
It's an honor and a pleasure to represent Zonos and and to do it in DC.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.319
That this is a yeah, this is this is a team that I'm proud to represent.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:19.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:20.319
Well, ditto.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:21.519
All right, thank you everyone.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:21.839
See ya.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:22.960
Thanks, guys.
