WEBVTT
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.919
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Currents.
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:19.440
This is a Venture Northeast podcast for pastors and ministry leaders.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.519
And here with me today is Jason Lehman of Keenley.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:28.559
Jason, it is such a privilege to have you here on this podcast today.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:29.600
Thank you, Doug.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:30.879
It's always good to be with you.
00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.600
It's always good to see your face on a screen.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.600
It's even better when we can do this together, but we're on different parts of the country right now.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:38.240
Amen.
00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:38.719
Amen.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:40.799
You're on Arizona time right now.
00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:50.079
And I, you know, I just want to dive right in here to say you've been in the ministry world for a really long, long, long time.
00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:51.520
You've seen it all.
00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.479
Um, you grew up in a ministry home.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.359
You you've seen uh all kinds of things.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:03.920
I want you to tell us a little bit about Keenley and what the ministry Keenley is seeking to do.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:12.560
I know uh venture uh just across the board, throughout the uh the United States, Keenley has been helpful to all of our regions.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.959
But just give us a little snapshot of Keenley.
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.359
Yeah, that sounds great.
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:23.920
Uh Keenley actually started, if I can do it, if I can give a little context for how we started and then how what we do today.
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:31.920
We actually started as a uh creative agency for ministries and uh uh over a decade ago.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:49.599
And I've been in this space for for probably about 20 years, but we started Keeley about a decade ago, and uh we were doing a lot of creative work, we were doing a lot of uh large-scale types of projects, uh churches, uh, faith-based um uh nonprofits, uh ministries all over the country.
00:01:49.840 --> 00:02:03.599
And one of the things that we real, one of the things we realized in the in the process of doing all of this is there were a lot of times we were bringing we were being brought in to make something look better or present better, but it wasn't always actually better on the inside.
00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:09.280
So we might be making something look better, uh, but the reality is there was a lot of dysfunction.
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:12.400
Um there was not a lot of good health in the ministry.
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.560
And so I came to kind of this crossroad of what do I care about more?
00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:23.120
Making something look good or uh wanting a ministry to actually be good.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:38.560
And um, so a lot of our work today is really trying to combine those two things, uh, where we're dealing with perception problems and uh things where ministries are not connecting well to their community or to their congregation or something like that.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:42.879
Uh, and then on the other side of that perception is what is the purpose of that church?
00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:48.960
What is the purpose of uh how God has placed that church uniquely into a community?
00:02:49.680 --> 00:03:00.479
How do we overcome the perception barriers on one end, and how do we equip that ministry to really do ministry better and to really live out their purpose and their calling in an effective way?
00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:11.520
So sometimes we are doing uh consulting projects, sometimes we're coming alongside coaching, sometimes we're still doing creative work at times, but we're doing it in the right timing, the right order.
00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:16.240
And so uh a lot of our work is very assessment and consultative based.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:20.800
Um, but sometimes I'm just on the phone with a pastor who's having a bad day.
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:28.560
And um, you know, at the end of the day, what we want to do is figure out what's not working well and put a church on a path to do that, to do things better.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:34.879
You know, and and the topic today is one that I know you can absolutely help us on.
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.199
Um and it's it's a question I've struggled with through the years.
00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:41.280
There's there's those seasons, right?
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:46.800
When it feels like nothing seems to be working, nothing seems to be going well.
00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.120
And um, you know, first of all, what do you think that means?
00:03:51.280 --> 00:04:02.400
And and what are the what are the different things in ministry that just kind of brings us to that, those, those feelings of, hey, this isn't going well.
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:09.120
You know, I've I've had that conversation hundreds of times.
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:09.360
Right.
00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:14.800
And around that, around that phrase, actually, and that's what's interesting about saying nothing is working.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:21.839
Uh, I was having that conversation with a pastor last week, and he actually said, Jason, it just seems like nothing's working anymore.
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:26.720
And uh so the the timing of this conversation is interesting to me.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:34.079
Pastors live in a bubble, and churches, you know, church staff live in a bubble.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:43.360
And so part of the challenge is for a pastor, it's very difficult for them to have an objective moment of almost anything.
00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:49.519
You know, they're carrying the weight for for themselves of the whole church, oftentimes.
00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.879
They're carrying the weight and the burdens of the people that are in their church.
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:00.399
And um, oftentimes the loudest voice that a pastor is hearing is what's wrong.
00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:01.199
Yeah.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:14.399
And so the reaction to that can be nothing is working because all I'm dealing with is complaints or frustrations, or, you know, our attendance is flat, our tendency going down.
00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:22.319
Um, it just seems like people aren't uh engaging and stepping up and and you know, volunteering or getting involved in things like that.
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:33.279
And so sometimes the nothing is working statement is coming from a place where pastor doesn't have the objectivity to see what's good or what's bad or what's stagnant.
00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:38.160
And so the easy measurables for them sometimes are things like attendance.
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.120
Our attendance isn't going up, I'm getting lots of complaints, nothing's working.
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:49.839
Uh, and the reality is there might be a lot of great things working, but they don't know, they don't know how to identify them.
00:05:50.079 --> 00:06:04.480
And so sometimes when we get into our perception projects, our assessments, and things like that, very quickly we can come to this moment with the pastor, you know, pastor, I don't know if you know this, but you know, these five things are happening right now, and that's amazing.
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:10.879
And I know you've got a lot of weight on you right now, but don't lose sight of the fact you've got some really good things happening.
00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:19.519
And so nothing is working, I think, becomes a catch-all statement for I'm really frustrated and I don't know what to do.
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.879
And and we are often our own worst critic.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:24.560
We are so hard on ourselves.
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.759
So, yeah, absolutely.
00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:35.279
What do you think are some of the early warning signs of discouragement in a pastor that that the that a pastor should probably pay attention to, right?
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:37.600
What are what are some of those signs?
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.079
That's a great question.
00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:47.120
So um the the thing that we look for in those types of moments is a disconnect of passion.
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:58.560
And so when we think about when we get involved in ministry early on, you know, we've taken a new role, we've planted a church, uh, things feel new.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:02.959
There's a lot of excitement, there's a lot of passion, uh, there's a lot of drive.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:07.279
And those things tend to push through all of the negative noise.
00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.920
Yep, we got a lot of people complaining, but it's okay.
00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:11.439
You know, we're we're gonna push through.
00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:12.879
It's gonna be great.
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:25.519
And there is a moment that starts to happen where a pastor stops being passionate about something and he stops being really engaged in in it that way.
00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:32.800
And there is a sense of, oh well, um, well, I guess we don't really need to worry about that.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.560
And everything starts becoming very practical.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:50.160
And when that begins to happen, that's usually a really good sign that discouragement is starting to set in because we're not thinking about the big picture, we're not excited about things in the same way that they that we were.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:55.199
Uh, the passion that we had that that really was the driver for us isn't there anymore.
00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:05.360
And when that happens, it this becomes about surviving the weekend rather than moving toward the mission and accomplished moving toward the vision and accomplishing the mission.
00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:06.079
Does that make sense?
00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:06.959
Yeah, it does.
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:08.079
It really does.
00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.079
And and how do you discern?
00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:17.279
Because, you know, there are there are obviously times, seasons, shall we call them, seasons of pruning in the church.
00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:24.720
And um, you know, you you move through these um challenging and and you just gotta get through it, right?
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:34.240
You just gotta get beyond this hurdle um to to the other side where things really do need to change.
00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:45.840
Like we we need some drastic measures here, and we've gotta um, you know, have a kind of come to Jesus moment with some leaders to say, how do you discern between the two?
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.000
I guess that's that's my question.
00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.960
Uh, because I haven't figured that one out yet myself.
00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:00.720
Yeah, and that actually is a very strategic question, and that the answer is it probably really depends.
00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:01.200
Yeah.
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:10.159
Um, and so that is something for um for a pastor to kind of uniquely have to identify in their unique situation.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:18.559
But I will say when we come to these desperate moments, it can be really easy for us to say we had to start over.
00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:20.240
Yeah, we gotta change everything.
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:44.159
And um I don't know if this is a helpful way to look at this or not, but you know, if you've ever done one of those really big puzzles, you know, where you've got pieces everywhere and you just come to a place where everything looks the same, I cannot figure out what to do, and you're ready to just take the table and flip it over and go find something else to do.
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.279
My wife absolutely loves those kinds of puzzles.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:48.000
I hate them.
00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.320
I just, yeah, they're they're not for me.
00:09:50.720 --> 00:10:02.000
I'm not a huge fan of them either, but sometimes what happens is when we walk away from the table and then we come back an hour later, all of a sudden we figure out where the pieces go.
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:03.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:04.080
Yeah.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:18.159
And I think sometimes, you know, I like I would it's again, it's not the best example, but I think sometimes pruning has more to do with coming back and making refinements and adjustments, finding those pieces and putting them back in.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:18.480
Yeah.
00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:25.679
Where starting over or doing something drastic is flipping that table over and like, I'm not doing this puzzle again, I'm gonna go do something else.
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:26.080
Right.
00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.200
Um, I think there are times that a church has to deal with something that is very drastic.
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:36.480
Yeah, sometimes what a church has to do is it needs to make a pivot.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.440
Um, and in pivoting, oftentimes that is a pruning season.
00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:45.120
That is a time, and it's still painful and it's still difficult.
00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:55.039
Um, but that's a season where incremental changes can make a big impact, as opposed to we need to we need to do something radical.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:11:03.919
Um that's probably a question I would have a better answer to if we were dealing with a specific situation.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:04.240
Yeah.
00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:09.039
Um, because every every church is a little bit different, you know, when it comes to that.
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:10.480
Um, I will say this.
00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:39.519
Um sometimes if I'm not a huge fan of the bell curve in life cycles in a church, you know, and pastors, what I'm talking about right now is that is that bell curve that goes up and and down, you know, and right, you know, on the far left, you know, we're we're starting, and then we build, and then we grow, and then we kind of maintain, and then we kind of reach this point where you know we either sustain what we're doing, we either get better and we go up, or something starts to decline.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:39.840
Yeah.
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:49.519
Usually in that moment is the place the pastor starts saying, nothing's working, or we've got to make a change, or I don't know what to do yet.
00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:51.279
I don't know what to do now.
00:11:51.840 --> 00:12:04.159
That is a place that we have to be really careful because that's a place that oftentimes what we do is we go and we look at other churches, we look at other pastors, it becomes a comparison.
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:08.000
It's not working here, we can't figure out what to do, it's working really good over there.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:09.440
So let's copy what they're doing.
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:10.639
It's gonna fix everything.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:14.159
I've fallen and I have fallen for that so many times.
00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:14.639
Yeah.
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:15.120
Yeah.
00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:17.039
And and I think I have too.
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:18.559
When I was a pastor, I did the same thing.
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:20.159
I would see a church doing something.
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:25.279
I would where I we where we were, I felt like, uh, maybe that's maybe that's our answer.
00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:25.759
Yeah.
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:32.240
And I didn't know the difference between pruning or making adjustments and making a big change.
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.559
And so it was easy to look at someone else's success and say, that's what I need.
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:37.840
That's what I need to do.
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:38.159
Yeah.
00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:43.200
And I just think we have to we have to be uh careful in how we make those kinds of choices.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:13:01.039
Can we before we talk about maybe some of the diagnosis or solutions to this, can we talk about a little bit about the missed diagnosis of these moments of frustration?
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.720
Um because I think, you know, and again, I hear it a lot, but I feel it.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:15.919
I've I've I've done it myself, where um I might not have necessarily diagnosed the problem correctly correctly or accurately.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:23.200
Um so can we can we just kind of focus on that just a little bit for a little a minute or two here?
00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:26.000
Yeah, for sure.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:35.440
The um misdiagnosis um we see a lot of different um situations around this.
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:44.240
And um one of the big things that we see is uh pastors diagnosing things through confirmation bias.
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:53.120
And so it can be really easy for you know there to be a situation that's not working, you know.
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:58.240
Again, that that statement of, you know, nothing's working, you know, what do we do?
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:18.399
Where a pastor can go to his existing group of people, he can go to his board, he can go to his staff, and instead of posing questions that really are vulnerable questions, um, and um would allow for some some proper diagnostic to happen.
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:24.159
Instead, there's kind of a gut feeling that is then shared with guys.
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.159
I think we have a problem, and I think this is it.
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.399
Um, you feel that way too, don't you?
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.639
And in a sense, what we're doing is we're asking people to confirm what's in our head.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:42.320
We're not asking people to give us honest feedback about what might actually be the problem and what might actually make it better.
00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.399
And so we see confirmation bias all the time in churches.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:58.799
And um, where uh pastors, staffs, even boards are trying to solve things, they're coming to a conclusion, and it's not informed by anything outside of the church.
00:14:58.960 --> 00:14:59.039
Yeah.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:06.399
They don't have someone like me coming in saying, hold on, guys, let's let's make sure we're looking at this, looking, looking at this objectively.
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:12.480
And then they almost lead people to the answer that they want to get.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.039
And when that happens, it's a misdiagnosis almost every time.
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:24.399
And uh, you know, we watch churches say, we need to make this big change and this big change, we need to change the style of our worship.
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:25.759
That's obviously the answer.
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:26.240
Yeah.
00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:40.480
Um, you know, we we had one church that was absolutely convinced that the that the reason that people were leaving their church and the reason that new people were not coming to their church was because they uh did not have a new website.
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.080
And that's actually what they wanted us to do.
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:47.360
They wanted us to build a new website and they just felt like that was gonna answer everything.
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:49.600
And that's gonna fix all of our problems, right?
00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:51.360
That's that's it right there.
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:52.080
Yep.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:52.799
Right.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:16:01.679
And I actually had to pose the hard question do you really think people are leaving the church who have been deeply committed people here?
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.559
They they're leaving the church because they don't like your website anymore.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.399
Do you really think that that's the reason?
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:07.039
Yeah.
00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:16.639
And you know, after some time and and actually going through some assessment, they realized the website was actually one of the very, very last things on the list of what needed to be changed.
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:22.720
But because they had been talking about it amongst themselves, they had convinced themselves that was the problem.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:28.559
And the problem was actually they had a major communication and perception problem inside and outside the church.
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:34.720
Um, but because they had misdiagnosed it, everything became about, well, let's just put a new website together.
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:35.120
Yeah.
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.000
And um, you know, and we've seen lots of those types of things, you know.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:47.519
Uh, we've seen churches that uh weren't um uh people would visit and people wouldn't wouldn't return.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:56.240
And uh and so we had one board that we were working with, and the board was absolutely convinced that all they needed to do was change the lobby.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.600
We just we we need better couches in there, and we need better signs.
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.519
And if we did that, all those visitors would keep coming back.
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.920
And and so they spent all this money to change the lobby, and it didn't make any changes at all.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:22.960
And no one actually thought about the fact that maybe we should make sure um we understand the process that a visitor is dealing with or is going through so that we can identify where where the problems are.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:33.920
And so misdiagnosis a lot of times just comes from we're we're unwilling to get objective help in figuring out what those problems are.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.799
You know, here's a question.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:42.880
I I know that for a lot of us here in the Northeast, we're a little bit sensitive about this.
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:52.319
Um and and it's a you know, the question is how much of the nothing is working is about metrics.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:59.759
It's about numbers, it's about the number of people sitting out there in our pews.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.319
Um, I you know, I came from a small church in western New York.
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:12.720
Um the pastor was born again, he preached the gospel, I was 15 years old, I got saved.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.160
He grew to the church to about 100.
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.440
And some would say, well, that's not a very large church.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:26.160
The thing is, is that I was from a town of 400.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.680
That was 25 percent of the attendance of the town.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.640
That's pretty successful.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:42.400
Um but but yet, but yet in our standards today here in America, we'd say, well, that's that's small.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:43.759
That's a small church.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.240
Um so so let's just talk about metrics.
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:48.000
What what do you think about that?
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.880
Um, you know, from your perspective.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.680
I'm glad you I'm glad you brought that up.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.759
I was literally just talking about this with a pastor last week as well.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:03.920
They were um just struggling with like, you know, we're not growing and we're not, you know, all those kind of things.
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:13.039
Um we have a interesting dynamic in America as it pertains to how we view success in a church.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.119
And so think about this just even as a pastor.
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.799
You know, you just got back from a conference.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:19.359
Yep.
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:41.119
Um, it can be really easy when you're at a conference, you get a lot of other pastors for us to get into conversations with other pastors and uh seek to find out the size of their church, the budget of their church, the programs of their church, and then we do this this silent comparison between the two.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:56.559
And um, you know, it's it's interesting, you know, if you could remove the size of the church component from a pastor from a pastor's conversation with another pastor, I think these conversations would be far more productive.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:08.960
But the problem is we look at each other in terms of our qualifications, our credibility, um, all of that, even our success through the lens of how many people attend our church.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:17.680
And in that, I think um it is really easy for us to go into transactional thinking.
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:24.160
And so if we have 50 people in our church, we are a small church.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:29.839
We're we're failing compared to the church of of 500 or or 10,000.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.240
I work with churches that are over 10,000 people.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.599
Yeah, um, they are not free of problems.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:41.839
Yeah, they have you take the number of problems that you're dealing with in a church of 100 and multiply that by a thousand, and that is real.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.599
I mean, those things happen there.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:50.799
Um and and you can be just as unhealthy at 10,000 as you can be at 100, right?
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:51.920
So yeah.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:53.759
Very very much so.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:21:11.920
And so the way that we tend to look at this and the way that we we tend to challenge pastors in their thinking is to stop thinking about the actual number of people who are showing up and start thinking about the way people who are presently there are interacting internally and externally uh in their faith.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.599
And so we work with one church that has about 65 people in it.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.480
And I would say that church is knocking it out of the park.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.519
I mean, in a big way, because they're in a community similar to how you grew up of several hundred people.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:29.759
Yeah.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.640
Uh several hundred people, and you have 65 people showing up.
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:33.680
That's phenomenal.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:34.079
Yeah.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.839
Uh almost everybody who is there is in a small group.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.119
Almost everybody there serves on a Sunday morning.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:49.680
Uh, almost everybody there is proactively going into the community, caring and and trying to be Jesus in those difficult moments to other people.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:55.039
I would look at that and say that church could teach a lot of churches how to do ministry well.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:55.839
Yeah.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.519
But the problem is 65 people doesn't sound that impressive.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:08.000
And so you put that person with another church, and they're probably not going to be real taken, you know, they're not going to be taken seriously seriously.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:21.039
Now, if I contrast that with a church of a thousand people who has um less than 5% of that church in small groups and they have hardly any people serving, um, I would say that church is really struggling.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.279
But the numbers look better.
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:32.240
And so if all we're doing is looking at it through the lens of transactional numbers, um, I I think that's our I think that's our problem.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:45.200
So what I what I will usually recommend in those moments and as we kind of work with churches in those situations, is evaluate things through the lens of transformation, not through the lens of transactions.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:54.079
Because God may have positioned your church to be the most amazing 65-member church anywhere.
00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:08.799
And embrace it and know that that may actually be the unique um calling on your church to be to be that size, you know, and maybe you're built more to be a missionary type of pastor within a community that's very dark.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:11.680
Doug, you're in you're in New England.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:11.920
Yeah.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.640
Well, we work with pastors in New England.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:20.480
I tell you, it is some of the most challenging place, places in America to do ministry right now.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:20.720
Yeah.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:28.559
And so any pastor I talk to who's in New England uh right now, I stop trying to compare yourself with churches around the country.
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:33.920
We're dealing with entirely different, different cultures in different places around the country.
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:34.319
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.200
And um, it is it is hard work, you know.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:43.680
And if if you've got 65, 75, 100 people in your church and you're doing ministry well, that is something to celebrate.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:45.200
Thank you for saying that.
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:50.640
Yeah, yeah, it's that's got to be heard loud and clear for all of our pastors in the Northeast here.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:51.519
That's great.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:53.440
You know, here's a question.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:21.440
We you know, we phrase this question, I think, intentionally, um, when it feels like nothing is working, when it feels, because you know, how much do you see that a pastor or a ministry leader's level of self-worth identity is kind of wrapped up into this and how they're feeling at a you know, a certain point in their ministry experience.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:23.519
You know, nothing seems to be going well.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:30.640
Well, it feels this way, and therefore, I must conclude I'm a big fat loser, man.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:36.480
You know, I you know not that we've ever felt that way before, right?
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.400
No, I I I I very much understand that.
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.079
Uh let me let me answer this a different way than you might expect.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:52.960
So um when I was uh you know, my you know, my my dad was a pastor for years.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:54.799
I grew up in ministry, you know.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:00.880
Um my first real serving in a church was actually uh at the soundboard.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:09.519
And um so I have a unique appreciation for people who run sound.
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:17.359
And um, there's a person everyone comes to run to and critique, and it's too loud or it's too soft.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:18.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:29.599
So when I became a worship pastor, I think it made me more sensitive to this, you know, and so you know, I would realize, boy, that's it's a tough job.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.960
And the reality is the sound guy actually has a very thankless job.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:48.240
And um you could have 50 weeks out of 52 weeks go incredibly well, but you could have two weeks go badly and people want to fire the sound guy.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:49.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.599
You know, the mic doesn't work, it might not even be the sound guy's problem.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:56.880
It may be that whoever's on stage forgot to turn the mic on.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:02.079
But everybody turns around and there's this awkward moment.
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.640
And I think for a lot of pastors, they have that same type of feeling.
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:14.400
They feel like the number of negative things far outweigh the number of positive things.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:21.039
You know, we have one month a year where it's pastor appreciation month where pastors actually feel you know fairly encouraged.
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.960
The rest of the year, it really can feel like a thankless job.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.759
And somebody might say, hey, great, great message, Pastor.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.200
You know, that was great.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:35.839
Um, but that's then complemented with let me tell you the five things that you did wrong in your message.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:41.119
And you know, let me tell you the 10 things that are wrong with the e-blast that you sent out this week.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:43.599
Uh let me let me tell you, you know, all of these things.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:51.839
And so after a while, the the scales of what's good and bad um like far outweigh each other on the negative end.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:56.559
And for a pastor, it's really easy to personalize all of that.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:14.799
And so when we're personalizing it, and then we also see things like attendance drop, the weight of I'm not doing my job, or the weight of I don't know if I have what it takes to do this job, or am I the right person, all of those things compound on each other.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:32.880
And this is one of the reasons that I tell pastors, you cannot um place all of your um uh you know, where you're gonna get affirmation, encouragement, uh all of that on your own people.
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:40.720
Because people in your church are never going to be able to step in and encourage and be that positive influence that you need.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:52.480
It's got to come from relationship with other pastors, um, Doug, people like you, you know, someone who is in a regional role to provide care, direction, strategy for a pastor.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:28:06.960
And so, pastors, if you're not in those settings, it the weight it gets heavier, it gets lonelier, the discouragement goes up, and you're gonna ask more questions of yourself, more self-doubt comes, all of that.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:14.480
And it's really easy then to make metrics, you know, an easy go-to for we got to get the metrics up.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.759
If I can get a tendency up, I'll at least feel better about something.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:18.400
Right.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:23.759
So so you answered in part my next question.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:32.960
What are some of the things that a pastor needs to start doing today to start combating low morale in themselves?
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.599
Well, like what do we what do we do?
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.640
Because we're because you just can't you just can't let this go on, right?
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.920
You gotta start talking back to yourself uh a little bit here in the ministry.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:54.319
So what what would be those you know three to five things that a pastor needs to do uh to to get get through this?
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.720
Well, I mean number one, you've got to talk to somebody outside of the church.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:01.119
Yeah.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:06.079
And um, I mean that that really is like I can't emphasize that enough.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:17.440
And um, you know, for um for me, uh, you know, I actually went to um three other pastors that were in churches, you know, in the Phoenix area.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.039
None of us had real connection with each other.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.759
So it it it made it really safe.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.720
And um I would go and just say, hey, I'm dealing with this conflict.
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.599
I don't know how to you know uh deal with this.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.599
I'm really anxious right now.
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.359
I don't know how to deal with my anxiety.
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:35.440
I'm I'm really discouraged.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:37.599
I don't know if I can keep doing this.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:40.720
Those are the questions that came out, and it was safe.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.319
It was easy to have those conversations with someone like that.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:52.880
And um there's not pastors out there with a sign outside of their church that say, hey, if you're another pastor, you need help, you know, come find me.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:54.880
It it doesn't work that way.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:00.319
You as a pastor have to be the one who proactively goes out and build it, builds that relationship.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:21.759
And it might not look like the guy that you were thinking about who, you know, for me in the early days of ministry here, lo and behold, it was an Episcopalian priest that became one of my best friends here in town who prayed for me, uh, supported, encouraged me.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:27.680
Uh, you know, we became kind of brothers from different mothers.
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:39.519
And uh he was just which I never would have expected that, thought that, that yeah, an Episcopalian brother would become one of my greatest uh cheerleaders for me.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:49.920
And uh yeah, so you you gotta be willing to look um uh outside the circle of people that you'd expect, right?
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:52.480
That's I guess that's where I'm going with that.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:54.000
Yeah, I did the same thing.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:03.279
And I think it's easy for us, especially in a venture setting, for us to say we we should only spend time with people who are within the venture circles.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:09.519
And um, if you're gonna if you're if you're looking for theological alignment and all of that, yes, that's great.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:24.480
But sometimes when you're just dealing with the challenge in the day-to-day of ministry, put the theological aside and and find people who are journeying in ministry um that are that are in some form of alignment.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:42.559
You know what, you know, um but find find people who who can be an encouragement for you because the people in your church, as great as your board might be or your staff might be, these are individuals that you have to be very careful of how how much information you give to them about what you're dealing with.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.920
Because some of our churches are are really distant from each other here in the Northeast.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:51.279
So yeah, yeah, that would only make sense.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.839
Yeah, so so I think that's a big one.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:00.640
Um another one uh uh to consider is actually getting some counseling.
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.039
And um I really fought that for a long time.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:09.519
I would tell people who were in difficult situations, you know, you really should go get some counseling.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.079
Yeah, but I never considered it for myself.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:18.240
And um and when I finally did, um, I did because I was actually in a bad place.
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:22.559
And the the counselor I went and saw, he actually said, Jason, you're in a spiral of despair.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:24.000
That was the phrase he used.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:26.480
And I thought, boy, that sounds awful.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.240
And he says, Well, it's not good.
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:47.039
Yeah, and he said, You've spent so much time not talking about what you're dealing with and not processing through life um and ministry and challenge that you basically have just built up all of this internal baggage that um that really is putting you into a place of despair.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:50.000
And it was very eye-opening.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:33:01.920
And um, I went in very resistant and I came out um amazingly encouraged and a whole lot more equipped to deal with difficulties in ministry than I was before.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:08.880
And um, and so and and you what you don't want to just go out and find a counselor down the street.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.480
I mean, you you you want to do your homework.
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:10.720
Yeah.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.880
And you know, Ventures got some resources on that.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.000
We've got some resources and for people that you can talk to.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:27.359
Um it is it is worthwhile to have somebody who professionally knows how to navigate this who is also coming from a faith-based background.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.839
And uh that can be really, really helpful.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:31.440
Um that is so helpful.
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.240
Yeah, I got that's so helpful.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:40.240
Get someone who can wisely counsel, but also maybe coach too, right?
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:45.039
Mentor, coach, and you were gonna say something else, one one other thing.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.359
The the other thing is, you know, pastors and and I have to deal with this too.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.759
There are times that we have to be careful with what we're bringing home.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:56.640
Yeah.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:12.480
And um, and so sometimes in the pastor, pastor's wife relationship, uh, it can be uh either way too much information shared, you know, because we're trying to process through everything, or we're not sharing anything at all.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:12.800
Yeah.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:28.079
And it is important to find the right balance because, you know, for a pastor's spouse, there is a very, very high uh desire to be protective and to be supportive and everything.
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.760
And sometimes we just need to process what we're dealing with.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.719
We're not actually looking for someone to become our defender.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:35.199
Yeah.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:49.920
And um, so it is it is appropriate to have conversations at home, but you want to have the right conversations because the last thing you want to do is have a situation where you've had to deal with conflict or a problem or something like that.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.960
You process it at home and you feel better.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:53.760
Yeah.
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:03.760
And then you go and go about go about your ministry day and in the coming weeks, but your spouse is sitting there ready to do battle for you.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:09.760
So now when that person um comes onto the radar again, there's, you know, you're fine.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.599
And your spouse is looking at this saying, We like them again?
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:14.559
What happened?
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:15.119
Yeah.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:20.400
And so it is important to have conversations at home.
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:27.760
Just be aware that there's a different way to look at it, you know, uh, as a pastor and a as in a pastor spouse.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.199
So does that make sense?
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:45.280
Yeah, because venture pastors, I I guarantee pastors here in the Northeast, not just our venture church pastors, but pastors in the Northeast probably are some of the loneliest people on the planet.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.760
So at least it feels that way sometimes.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:53.280
And the next loneliest person on the planet are our pastors' wives.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:01.440
And uh one of my commitments is to try to help pastors and their wives through these journeys.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:03.920
I just was talking to a pastor last week.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.320
His wife, they're in a brand new church.
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.199
Wife is feeling very lonely right now.
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:11.760
And uh yeah, it my heart aches.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:13.920
So so here's the last question.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:29.679
What would you say to a pastor who is right now feeling exhausted, unseen, feels ineffective, is uh thinking about calling it quits.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:33.440
Um what would you say to them directly right now, Jason?
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.800
I would say a couple things.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:50.239
I think the first thing I would say is um just on the encouragement end, um ministry is not easy.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:57.519
And I do think it takes a special person who is willing to actually journey into that.
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:03.920
Um your entire congregation could be having a great day and you could be having an awful one.
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.159
And they have no idea.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:16.079
They don't know the weight, they don't know the pain, they don't know the history, they don't know the pressure, um, they don't know the fear that comes in that.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.440
Those are real things.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:38.719
And so if you are in that place right now, um be encouraged, you know, because uh there's a whole lot of examples in the New Testament of difficult moments of people who were in ministry and they chose to be joyful, they chose to trust God in that because ministry was worth it.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.440
Um, so I would say that first.
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:48.880
Um, and I I say that not to minimize the difficulty, uh, because the difficulty is very real.
00:37:49.679 --> 00:38:01.840
Um the second thing I I I will say, Pastor, is you do need to be talking to other pastors just so you can build a circle of peers and relationships that you can journey with.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.400
That that is very important to have those.
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:08.079
And you know, uh, Pastor, you can reach out to me.
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.440
I I if I can fit it in, I'll be in that circle.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.360
You know, and Doug, you could be in that circle with them.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:18.559
I think there are um, but the more you can find someone who's local, the better.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:28.079
Somebody that you could get coffee with, somebody that you could easily hop, hop in a car and hey, can we go spend an hour and and just walk and talk about this?
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:30.800
Um that is really important.
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:42.639
And it may require you to literally get in the car, drive down to the church, you know, that's a couple miles down the road that you've never met the pastor, knock on the door and say, Hey, we've never met.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.199
If you're like me, this is hard.
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.039
You probably don't have a lot of friends.
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:48.719
How about we go get lunch?
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:55.360
And it might surprise you how welcome that conversation might be.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:04.000
And so be proactive and be intentional about trying to build those relationships, you know, with some other pastors.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:09.920
The third thing I will say is you need to uh gain some objectivity and some understanding.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:21.840
And so you do probably need a group like Keenley, you know, someone like me to come in and actually help you identify what is working and what is not working.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:27.679
Uh, when we don't know how to discern and understand those things, everything feels bad.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.000
Everything feels overwhelming.
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:39.119
And sometimes there are some really bright things in our own churches, even when we feel the weight of struggle, that if someone could come in and say, Don't you know how good this is?
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:41.199
Don't you know how unique this is?
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:47.920
Don't you know that your church of 65 people or 100 people is actually doing something really amazing?
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:53.119
And um, let's figure out how to do more of that amazing thing.
00:39:53.679 --> 00:40:01.840
And um, and so you know, I'd be happy to to you know do a strategy call um you know with within you know with anybody.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:09.119
You know, we we have several things that we can do that are fairly low cost to come in and actually help identify that.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:18.000
Um and um but you know it's pastor, I I will say this directly to the pastor, so I'm not saying this to you, Doug.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.320
I uh well, I guess I am saying it to you, Doug.
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:25.519
But um I don't think we are designed to do ministry alone.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:26.239
Yeah.
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:26.960
Yeah.
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:28.320
I really don't.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:45.119
And I think when you when you can bring the right people around you, you know, to to encourage you, to help point things out in a way that is loving and is trusted and and is for your good, the potential just goes up.
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:45.440
Yeah.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:54.000
And um, and so venture is is is here to do that, Keenley is here to do that, you know, and uh so happy to help in those moments.
00:40:54.320 --> 00:41:03.760
Well, I'm excited about the resources that Keenley is going to be providing and some new resources that are kind of coming down the pike, too.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:16.719
Um one of the ways that um I think uh Keenley can kind of connect with the Northeast is I'm really hoping, Jason, you'll be available to come and uh be with us.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:21.039
Uh we're representative from Keenley be with us in the fall.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:25.360
Um we are going to be bringing in, I don't know if I told you this or not.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.159
So we got November 15th and 16th.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:34.719
Um we are bringing in MacLake on that Monday, the 16th.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:48.159
Um, my my burden has been for this leadership pipeline, and I'm seeing too many pastors that are so overloaded, and many of them are troubled by this succession problem.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:50.079
They don't know who's next.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:54.239
They're retiring very soon, and they've got nobody themselves.
00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:06.239
And I don't have a list either, just to say I don't have anybody that's uh pounding on my door waiting to uh uh, you know, uh take on some of our churches here in the Northeast.
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:12.880
So so this leadership development pipeline is something I would really like to get rolling along here.
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:22.960
And uh it's between two people that I know of who do this, are doing it so well is one is your dad, and the other is Mac Mac Lake.
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:27.679
And uh so uh we want to get this ball rolling along here in the Northeast.
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:32.800
So, Jason, I look forward to uh the fall and hopefully you could be with us.
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:36.320
And uh yeah, we're looking forward to the future ahead here.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:38.239
So thank you so much, brother.
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:39.760
Thanks for being with us today.
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:41.119
God bless everybody.
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:42.559
Thanks for listening.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.919
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Currents.
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:19.440
This is a Venture Northeast podcast for pastors and ministry leaders.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.519
And here with me today is Jason Lehman of Keenley.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:28.559
Jason, it is such a privilege to have you here on this podcast today.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:29.600
Thank you, Doug.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:30.879
It's always good to be with you.
00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.600
It's always good to see your face on a screen.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.600
It's even better when we can do this together, but we're on different parts of the country right now.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:38.240
Amen.
00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:38.719
Amen.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:40.799
You're on Arizona time right now.
00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:50.079
And I, you know, I just want to dive right in here to say you've been in the ministry world for a really long, long, long time.
00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:51.520
You've seen it all.
00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.479
Um, you grew up in a ministry home.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.359
You you've seen uh all kinds of things.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:03.920
I want you to tell us a little bit about Keenley and what the ministry Keenley is seeking to do.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:12.560
I know uh venture uh just across the board, throughout the uh the United States, Keenley has been helpful to all of our regions.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.959
But just give us a little snapshot of Keenley.
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.359
Yeah, that sounds great.
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:23.920
Uh Keenley actually started, if I can do it, if I can give a little context for how we started and then how what we do today.
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:31.920
We actually started as a uh creative agency for ministries and uh uh over a decade ago.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:49.599
And I've been in this space for for probably about 20 years, but we started Keeley about a decade ago, and uh we were doing a lot of creative work, we were doing a lot of uh large-scale types of projects, uh churches, uh, faith-based um uh nonprofits, uh ministries all over the country.
00:01:49.840 --> 00:02:03.599
And one of the things that we real, one of the things we realized in the in the process of doing all of this is there were a lot of times we were bringing we were being brought in to make something look better or present better, but it wasn't always actually better on the inside.
00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:09.280
So we might be making something look better, uh, but the reality is there was a lot of dysfunction.
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:12.400
Um there was not a lot of good health in the ministry.
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.560
And so I came to kind of this crossroad of what do I care about more?
00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:23.120
Making something look good or uh wanting a ministry to actually be good.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:38.560
And um, so a lot of our work today is really trying to combine those two things, uh, where we're dealing with perception problems and uh things where ministries are not connecting well to their community or to their congregation or something like that.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:42.879
Uh, and then on the other side of that perception is what is the purpose of that church?
00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:48.960
What is the purpose of uh how God has placed that church uniquely into a community?
00:02:49.680 --> 00:03:00.479
How do we overcome the perception barriers on one end, and how do we equip that ministry to really do ministry better and to really live out their purpose and their calling in an effective way?
00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:11.520
So sometimes we are doing uh consulting projects, sometimes we're coming alongside coaching, sometimes we're still doing creative work at times, but we're doing it in the right timing, the right order.
00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:16.240
And so uh a lot of our work is very assessment and consultative based.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:20.800
Um, but sometimes I'm just on the phone with a pastor who's having a bad day.
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:28.560
And um, you know, at the end of the day, what we want to do is figure out what's not working well and put a church on a path to do that, to do things better.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:34.879
You know, and and the topic today is one that I know you can absolutely help us on.
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.199
Um and it's it's a question I've struggled with through the years.
00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:41.280
There's there's those seasons, right?
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:46.800
When it feels like nothing seems to be working, nothing seems to be going well.
00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.120
And um, you know, first of all, what do you think that means?
00:03:51.280 --> 00:04:02.400
And and what are the what are the different things in ministry that just kind of brings us to that, those, those feelings of, hey, this isn't going well.
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:09.120
You know, I've I've had that conversation hundreds of times.
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:09.360
Right.
00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:14.800
And around that, around that phrase, actually, and that's what's interesting about saying nothing is working.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:21.839
Uh, I was having that conversation with a pastor last week, and he actually said, Jason, it just seems like nothing's working anymore.
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:26.720
And uh so the the timing of this conversation is interesting to me.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:34.079
Pastors live in a bubble, and churches, you know, church staff live in a bubble.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:43.360
And so part of the challenge is for a pastor, it's very difficult for them to have an objective moment of almost anything.
00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:49.519
You know, they're carrying the weight for for themselves of the whole church, oftentimes.
00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.879
They're carrying the weight and the burdens of the people that are in their church.
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:00.399
And um, oftentimes the loudest voice that a pastor is hearing is what's wrong.
00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:01.199
Yeah.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:14.399
And so the reaction to that can be nothing is working because all I'm dealing with is complaints or frustrations, or, you know, our attendance is flat, our tendency going down.
00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:22.319
Um, it just seems like people aren't uh engaging and stepping up and and you know, volunteering or getting involved in things like that.
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:33.279
And so sometimes the nothing is working statement is coming from a place where pastor doesn't have the objectivity to see what's good or what's bad or what's stagnant.
00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:38.160
And so the easy measurables for them sometimes are things like attendance.
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.120
Our attendance isn't going up, I'm getting lots of complaints, nothing's working.
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:49.839
Uh, and the reality is there might be a lot of great things working, but they don't know, they don't know how to identify them.
00:05:50.079 --> 00:06:04.480
And so sometimes when we get into our perception projects, our assessments, and things like that, very quickly we can come to this moment with the pastor, you know, pastor, I don't know if you know this, but you know, these five things are happening right now, and that's amazing.
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:10.879
And I know you've got a lot of weight on you right now, but don't lose sight of the fact you've got some really good things happening.
00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:19.519
And so nothing is working, I think, becomes a catch-all statement for I'm really frustrated and I don't know what to do.
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.879
And and we are often our own worst critic.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:24.560
We are so hard on ourselves.
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.759
So, yeah, absolutely.
00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:35.279
What do you think are some of the early warning signs of discouragement in a pastor that that the that a pastor should probably pay attention to, right?
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:37.600
What are what are some of those signs?
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.079
That's a great question.
00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:47.120
So um the the thing that we look for in those types of moments is a disconnect of passion.
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:58.560
And so when we think about when we get involved in ministry early on, you know, we've taken a new role, we've planted a church, uh, things feel new.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:02.959
There's a lot of excitement, there's a lot of passion, uh, there's a lot of drive.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:07.279
And those things tend to push through all of the negative noise.
00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.920
Yep, we got a lot of people complaining, but it's okay.
00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:11.439
You know, we're we're gonna push through.
00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:12.879
It's gonna be great.
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:25.519
And there is a moment that starts to happen where a pastor stops being passionate about something and he stops being really engaged in in it that way.
00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:32.800
And there is a sense of, oh well, um, well, I guess we don't really need to worry about that.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.560
And everything starts becoming very practical.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:50.160
And when that begins to happen, that's usually a really good sign that discouragement is starting to set in because we're not thinking about the big picture, we're not excited about things in the same way that they that we were.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:55.199
Uh, the passion that we had that that really was the driver for us isn't there anymore.
00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:05.360
And when that happens, it this becomes about surviving the weekend rather than moving toward the mission and accomplished moving toward the vision and accomplishing the mission.
00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:06.079
Does that make sense?
00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:06.959
Yeah, it does.
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:08.079
It really does.
00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.079
And and how do you discern?
00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:17.279
Because, you know, there are there are obviously times, seasons, shall we call them, seasons of pruning in the church.
00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:24.720
And um, you know, you you move through these um challenging and and you just gotta get through it, right?
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:34.240
You just gotta get beyond this hurdle um to to the other side where things really do need to change.
00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:45.840
Like we we need some drastic measures here, and we've gotta um, you know, have a kind of come to Jesus moment with some leaders to say, how do you discern between the two?
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.000
I guess that's that's my question.
00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.960
Uh, because I haven't figured that one out yet myself.
00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:00.720
Yeah, and that actually is a very strategic question, and that the answer is it probably really depends.
00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:01.200
Yeah.
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:10.159
Um, and so that is something for um for a pastor to kind of uniquely have to identify in their unique situation.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:18.559
But I will say when we come to these desperate moments, it can be really easy for us to say we had to start over.
00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:20.240
Yeah, we gotta change everything.
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:44.159
And um I don't know if this is a helpful way to look at this or not, but you know, if you've ever done one of those really big puzzles, you know, where you've got pieces everywhere and you just come to a place where everything looks the same, I cannot figure out what to do, and you're ready to just take the table and flip it over and go find something else to do.
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.279
My wife absolutely loves those kinds of puzzles.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:48.000
I hate them.
00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.320
I just, yeah, they're they're not for me.
00:09:50.720 --> 00:10:02.000
I'm not a huge fan of them either, but sometimes what happens is when we walk away from the table and then we come back an hour later, all of a sudden we figure out where the pieces go.
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:03.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:04.080
Yeah.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:18.159
And I think sometimes, you know, I like I would it's again, it's not the best example, but I think sometimes pruning has more to do with coming back and making refinements and adjustments, finding those pieces and putting them back in.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:18.480
Yeah.
00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:25.679
Where starting over or doing something drastic is flipping that table over and like, I'm not doing this puzzle again, I'm gonna go do something else.
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:26.080
Right.
00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.200
Um, I think there are times that a church has to deal with something that is very drastic.
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:36.480
Yeah, sometimes what a church has to do is it needs to make a pivot.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.440
Um, and in pivoting, oftentimes that is a pruning season.
00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:45.120
That is a time, and it's still painful and it's still difficult.
00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:55.039
Um, but that's a season where incremental changes can make a big impact, as opposed to we need to we need to do something radical.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:11:03.919
Um that's probably a question I would have a better answer to if we were dealing with a specific situation.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:04.240
Yeah.
00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:09.039
Um, because every every church is a little bit different, you know, when it comes to that.
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:10.480
Um, I will say this.
00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:39.519
Um sometimes if I'm not a huge fan of the bell curve in life cycles in a church, you know, and pastors, what I'm talking about right now is that is that bell curve that goes up and and down, you know, and right, you know, on the far left, you know, we're we're starting, and then we build, and then we grow, and then we kind of maintain, and then we kind of reach this point where you know we either sustain what we're doing, we either get better and we go up, or something starts to decline.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:39.840
Yeah.
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:49.519
Usually in that moment is the place the pastor starts saying, nothing's working, or we've got to make a change, or I don't know what to do yet.
00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:51.279
I don't know what to do now.
00:11:51.840 --> 00:12:04.159
That is a place that we have to be really careful because that's a place that oftentimes what we do is we go and we look at other churches, we look at other pastors, it becomes a comparison.
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:08.000
It's not working here, we can't figure out what to do, it's working really good over there.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:09.440
So let's copy what they're doing.
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:10.639
It's gonna fix everything.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:14.159
I've fallen and I have fallen for that so many times.
00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:14.639
Yeah.
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:15.120
Yeah.
00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:17.039
And and I think I have too.
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:18.559
When I was a pastor, I did the same thing.
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:20.159
I would see a church doing something.
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:25.279
I would where I we where we were, I felt like, uh, maybe that's maybe that's our answer.
00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:25.759
Yeah.
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:32.240
And I didn't know the difference between pruning or making adjustments and making a big change.
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.559
And so it was easy to look at someone else's success and say, that's what I need.
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:37.840
That's what I need to do.
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:38.159
Yeah.
00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:43.200
And I just think we have to we have to be uh careful in how we make those kinds of choices.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:13:01.039
Can we before we talk about maybe some of the diagnosis or solutions to this, can we talk about a little bit about the missed diagnosis of these moments of frustration?
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.720
Um because I think, you know, and again, I hear it a lot, but I feel it.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:15.919
I've I've I've done it myself, where um I might not have necessarily diagnosed the problem correctly correctly or accurately.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:23.200
Um so can we can we just kind of focus on that just a little bit for a little a minute or two here?
00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:26.000
Yeah, for sure.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:35.440
The um misdiagnosis um we see a lot of different um situations around this.
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:44.240
And um one of the big things that we see is uh pastors diagnosing things through confirmation bias.
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:53.120
And so it can be really easy for you know there to be a situation that's not working, you know.
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:58.240
Again, that that statement of, you know, nothing's working, you know, what do we do?
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:18.399
Where a pastor can go to his existing group of people, he can go to his board, he can go to his staff, and instead of posing questions that really are vulnerable questions, um, and um would allow for some some proper diagnostic to happen.
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:24.159
Instead, there's kind of a gut feeling that is then shared with guys.
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.159
I think we have a problem, and I think this is it.
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.399
Um, you feel that way too, don't you?
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.639
And in a sense, what we're doing is we're asking people to confirm what's in our head.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:42.320
We're not asking people to give us honest feedback about what might actually be the problem and what might actually make it better.
00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.399
And so we see confirmation bias all the time in churches.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:58.799
And um, where uh pastors, staffs, even boards are trying to solve things, they're coming to a conclusion, and it's not informed by anything outside of the church.
00:14:58.960 --> 00:14:59.039
Yeah.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:06.399
They don't have someone like me coming in saying, hold on, guys, let's let's make sure we're looking at this, looking, looking at this objectively.
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:12.480
And then they almost lead people to the answer that they want to get.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.039
And when that happens, it's a misdiagnosis almost every time.
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:24.399
And uh, you know, we watch churches say, we need to make this big change and this big change, we need to change the style of our worship.
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:25.759
That's obviously the answer.
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:26.240
Yeah.
00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:40.480
Um, you know, we we had one church that was absolutely convinced that the that the reason that people were leaving their church and the reason that new people were not coming to their church was because they uh did not have a new website.
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.080
And that's actually what they wanted us to do.
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:47.360
They wanted us to build a new website and they just felt like that was gonna answer everything.
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:49.600
And that's gonna fix all of our problems, right?
00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:51.360
That's that's it right there.
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:52.080
Yep.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:52.799
Right.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:16:01.679
And I actually had to pose the hard question do you really think people are leaving the church who have been deeply committed people here?
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.559
They they're leaving the church because they don't like your website anymore.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.399
Do you really think that that's the reason?
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:07.039
Yeah.
00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:16.639
And you know, after some time and and actually going through some assessment, they realized the website was actually one of the very, very last things on the list of what needed to be changed.
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:22.720
But because they had been talking about it amongst themselves, they had convinced themselves that was the problem.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:28.559
And the problem was actually they had a major communication and perception problem inside and outside the church.
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:34.720
Um, but because they had misdiagnosed it, everything became about, well, let's just put a new website together.
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:35.120
Yeah.
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.000
And um, you know, and we've seen lots of those types of things, you know.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:47.519
Uh, we've seen churches that uh weren't um uh people would visit and people wouldn't wouldn't return.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:56.240
And uh and so we had one board that we were working with, and the board was absolutely convinced that all they needed to do was change the lobby.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.600
We just we we need better couches in there, and we need better signs.
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.519
And if we did that, all those visitors would keep coming back.
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.920
And and so they spent all this money to change the lobby, and it didn't make any changes at all.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:22.960
And no one actually thought about the fact that maybe we should make sure um we understand the process that a visitor is dealing with or is going through so that we can identify where where the problems are.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:33.920
And so misdiagnosis a lot of times just comes from we're we're unwilling to get objective help in figuring out what those problems are.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.799
You know, here's a question.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:42.880
I I know that for a lot of us here in the Northeast, we're a little bit sensitive about this.
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:52.319
Um and and it's a you know, the question is how much of the nothing is working is about metrics.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:59.759
It's about numbers, it's about the number of people sitting out there in our pews.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.319
Um, I you know, I came from a small church in western New York.
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:12.720
Um the pastor was born again, he preached the gospel, I was 15 years old, I got saved.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.160
He grew to the church to about 100.
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.440
And some would say, well, that's not a very large church.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:26.160
The thing is, is that I was from a town of 400.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.680
That was 25 percent of the attendance of the town.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.640
That's pretty successful.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:42.400
Um but but yet, but yet in our standards today here in America, we'd say, well, that's that's small.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:43.759
That's a small church.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.240
Um so so let's just talk about metrics.
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:48.000
What what do you think about that?
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.880
Um, you know, from your perspective.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.680
I'm glad you I'm glad you brought that up.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.759
I was literally just talking about this with a pastor last week as well.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:03.920
They were um just struggling with like, you know, we're not growing and we're not, you know, all those kind of things.
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:13.039
Um we have a interesting dynamic in America as it pertains to how we view success in a church.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.119
And so think about this just even as a pastor.
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.799
You know, you just got back from a conference.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:19.359
Yep.
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:41.119
Um, it can be really easy when you're at a conference, you get a lot of other pastors for us to get into conversations with other pastors and uh seek to find out the size of their church, the budget of their church, the programs of their church, and then we do this this silent comparison between the two.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:56.559
And um, you know, it's it's interesting, you know, if you could remove the size of the church component from a pastor from a pastor's conversation with another pastor, I think these conversations would be far more productive.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:08.960
But the problem is we look at each other in terms of our qualifications, our credibility, um, all of that, even our success through the lens of how many people attend our church.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:17.680
And in that, I think um it is really easy for us to go into transactional thinking.
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:24.160
And so if we have 50 people in our church, we are a small church.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:29.839
We're we're failing compared to the church of of 500 or or 10,000.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.240
I work with churches that are over 10,000 people.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.599
Yeah, um, they are not free of problems.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:41.839
Yeah, they have you take the number of problems that you're dealing with in a church of 100 and multiply that by a thousand, and that is real.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.599
I mean, those things happen there.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:50.799
Um and and you can be just as unhealthy at 10,000 as you can be at 100, right?
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:51.920
So yeah.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:53.759
Very very much so.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:21:11.920
And so the way that we tend to look at this and the way that we we tend to challenge pastors in their thinking is to stop thinking about the actual number of people who are showing up and start thinking about the way people who are presently there are interacting internally and externally uh in their faith.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.599
And so we work with one church that has about 65 people in it.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.480
And I would say that church is knocking it out of the park.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.519
I mean, in a big way, because they're in a community similar to how you grew up of several hundred people.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:29.759
Yeah.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.640
Uh several hundred people, and you have 65 people showing up.
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:33.680
That's phenomenal.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:34.079
Yeah.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.839
Uh almost everybody who is there is in a small group.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.119
Almost everybody there serves on a Sunday morning.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:49.680
Uh, almost everybody there is proactively going into the community, caring and and trying to be Jesus in those difficult moments to other people.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:55.039
I would look at that and say that church could teach a lot of churches how to do ministry well.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:55.839
Yeah.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.519
But the problem is 65 people doesn't sound that impressive.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:08.000
And so you put that person with another church, and they're probably not going to be real taken, you know, they're not going to be taken seriously seriously.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:21.039
Now, if I contrast that with a church of a thousand people who has um less than 5% of that church in small groups and they have hardly any people serving, um, I would say that church is really struggling.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.279
But the numbers look better.
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:32.240
And so if all we're doing is looking at it through the lens of transactional numbers, um, I I think that's our I think that's our problem.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:45.200
So what I what I will usually recommend in those moments and as we kind of work with churches in those situations, is evaluate things through the lens of transformation, not through the lens of transactions.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:54.079
Because God may have positioned your church to be the most amazing 65-member church anywhere.
00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:08.799
And embrace it and know that that may actually be the unique um calling on your church to be to be that size, you know, and maybe you're built more to be a missionary type of pastor within a community that's very dark.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:11.680
Doug, you're in you're in New England.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:11.920
Yeah.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.640
Well, we work with pastors in New England.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:20.480
I tell you, it is some of the most challenging place, places in America to do ministry right now.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:20.720
Yeah.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:28.559
And so any pastor I talk to who's in New England uh right now, I stop trying to compare yourself with churches around the country.
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:33.920
We're dealing with entirely different, different cultures in different places around the country.
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:34.319
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.200
And um, it is it is hard work, you know.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:43.680
And if if you've got 65, 75, 100 people in your church and you're doing ministry well, that is something to celebrate.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:45.200
Thank you for saying that.
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:50.640
Yeah, yeah, it's that's got to be heard loud and clear for all of our pastors in the Northeast here.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:51.519
That's great.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:53.440
You know, here's a question.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:21.440
We you know, we phrase this question, I think, intentionally, um, when it feels like nothing is working, when it feels, because you know, how much do you see that a pastor or a ministry leader's level of self-worth identity is kind of wrapped up into this and how they're feeling at a you know, a certain point in their ministry experience.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:23.519
You know, nothing seems to be going well.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:30.640
Well, it feels this way, and therefore, I must conclude I'm a big fat loser, man.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:36.480
You know, I you know not that we've ever felt that way before, right?
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.400
No, I I I I very much understand that.
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.079
Uh let me let me answer this a different way than you might expect.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:52.960
So um when I was uh you know, my you know, my my dad was a pastor for years.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:54.799
I grew up in ministry, you know.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:00.880
Um my first real serving in a church was actually uh at the soundboard.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:09.519
And um so I have a unique appreciation for people who run sound.
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:17.359
And um, there's a person everyone comes to run to and critique, and it's too loud or it's too soft.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:18.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:29.599
So when I became a worship pastor, I think it made me more sensitive to this, you know, and so you know, I would realize, boy, that's it's a tough job.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.960
And the reality is the sound guy actually has a very thankless job.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:48.240
And um you could have 50 weeks out of 52 weeks go incredibly well, but you could have two weeks go badly and people want to fire the sound guy.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:49.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.599
You know, the mic doesn't work, it might not even be the sound guy's problem.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:56.880
It may be that whoever's on stage forgot to turn the mic on.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:02.079
But everybody turns around and there's this awkward moment.
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.640
And I think for a lot of pastors, they have that same type of feeling.
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:14.400
They feel like the number of negative things far outweigh the number of positive things.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:21.039
You know, we have one month a year where it's pastor appreciation month where pastors actually feel you know fairly encouraged.
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.960
The rest of the year, it really can feel like a thankless job.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.759
And somebody might say, hey, great, great message, Pastor.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.200
You know, that was great.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:35.839
Um, but that's then complemented with let me tell you the five things that you did wrong in your message.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:41.119
And you know, let me tell you the 10 things that are wrong with the e-blast that you sent out this week.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:43.599
Uh let me let me tell you, you know, all of these things.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:51.839
And so after a while, the the scales of what's good and bad um like far outweigh each other on the negative end.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:56.559
And for a pastor, it's really easy to personalize all of that.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:14.799
And so when we're personalizing it, and then we also see things like attendance drop, the weight of I'm not doing my job, or the weight of I don't know if I have what it takes to do this job, or am I the right person, all of those things compound on each other.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:32.880
And this is one of the reasons that I tell pastors, you cannot um place all of your um uh you know, where you're gonna get affirmation, encouragement, uh all of that on your own people.
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:40.720
Because people in your church are never going to be able to step in and encourage and be that positive influence that you need.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:52.480
It's got to come from relationship with other pastors, um, Doug, people like you, you know, someone who is in a regional role to provide care, direction, strategy for a pastor.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:28:06.960
And so, pastors, if you're not in those settings, it the weight it gets heavier, it gets lonelier, the discouragement goes up, and you're gonna ask more questions of yourself, more self-doubt comes, all of that.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:14.480
And it's really easy then to make metrics, you know, an easy go-to for we got to get the metrics up.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.759
If I can get a tendency up, I'll at least feel better about something.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:18.400
Right.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:23.759
So so you answered in part my next question.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:32.960
What are some of the things that a pastor needs to start doing today to start combating low morale in themselves?
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.599
Well, like what do we what do we do?
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.640
Because we're because you just can't you just can't let this go on, right?
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.920
You gotta start talking back to yourself uh a little bit here in the ministry.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:54.319
So what what would be those you know three to five things that a pastor needs to do uh to to get get through this?
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.720
Well, I mean number one, you've got to talk to somebody outside of the church.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:01.119
Yeah.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:06.079
And um, I mean that that really is like I can't emphasize that enough.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:17.440
And um, you know, for um for me, uh, you know, I actually went to um three other pastors that were in churches, you know, in the Phoenix area.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.039
None of us had real connection with each other.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.759
So it it it made it really safe.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.720
And um I would go and just say, hey, I'm dealing with this conflict.
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.599
I don't know how to you know uh deal with this.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.599
I'm really anxious right now.
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.359
I don't know how to deal with my anxiety.
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:35.440
I'm I'm really discouraged.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:37.599
I don't know if I can keep doing this.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:40.720
Those are the questions that came out, and it was safe.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.319
It was easy to have those conversations with someone like that.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:52.880
And um there's not pastors out there with a sign outside of their church that say, hey, if you're another pastor, you need help, you know, come find me.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:54.880
It it doesn't work that way.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:00.319
You as a pastor have to be the one who proactively goes out and build it, builds that relationship.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:21.759
And it might not look like the guy that you were thinking about who, you know, for me in the early days of ministry here, lo and behold, it was an Episcopalian priest that became one of my best friends here in town who prayed for me, uh, supported, encouraged me.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:27.680
Uh, you know, we became kind of brothers from different mothers.
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:39.519
And uh he was just which I never would have expected that, thought that, that yeah, an Episcopalian brother would become one of my greatest uh cheerleaders for me.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:49.920
And uh yeah, so you you gotta be willing to look um uh outside the circle of people that you'd expect, right?
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:52.480
That's I guess that's where I'm going with that.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:54.000
Yeah, I did the same thing.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:03.279
And I think it's easy for us, especially in a venture setting, for us to say we we should only spend time with people who are within the venture circles.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:09.519
And um, if you're gonna if you're if you're looking for theological alignment and all of that, yes, that's great.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:24.480
But sometimes when you're just dealing with the challenge in the day-to-day of ministry, put the theological aside and and find people who are journeying in ministry um that are that are in some form of alignment.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:42.559
You know what, you know, um but find find people who who can be an encouragement for you because the people in your church, as great as your board might be or your staff might be, these are individuals that you have to be very careful of how how much information you give to them about what you're dealing with.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.920
Because some of our churches are are really distant from each other here in the Northeast.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:51.279
So yeah, yeah, that would only make sense.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.839
Yeah, so so I think that's a big one.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:00.640
Um another one uh uh to consider is actually getting some counseling.
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.039
And um I really fought that for a long time.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:09.519
I would tell people who were in difficult situations, you know, you really should go get some counseling.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.079
Yeah, but I never considered it for myself.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:18.240
And um and when I finally did, um, I did because I was actually in a bad place.
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:22.559
And the the counselor I went and saw, he actually said, Jason, you're in a spiral of despair.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:24.000
That was the phrase he used.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:26.480
And I thought, boy, that sounds awful.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.240
And he says, Well, it's not good.
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:47.039
Yeah, and he said, You've spent so much time not talking about what you're dealing with and not processing through life um and ministry and challenge that you basically have just built up all of this internal baggage that um that really is putting you into a place of despair.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:50.000
And it was very eye-opening.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:33:01.920
And um, I went in very resistant and I came out um amazingly encouraged and a whole lot more equipped to deal with difficulties in ministry than I was before.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:08.880
And um, and so and and you what you don't want to just go out and find a counselor down the street.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.480
I mean, you you you want to do your homework.
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:10.720
Yeah.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.880
And you know, Ventures got some resources on that.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.000
We've got some resources and for people that you can talk to.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:27.359
Um it is it is worthwhile to have somebody who professionally knows how to navigate this who is also coming from a faith-based background.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.839
And uh that can be really, really helpful.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:31.440
Um that is so helpful.
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.240
Yeah, I got that's so helpful.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:40.240
Get someone who can wisely counsel, but also maybe coach too, right?
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:45.039
Mentor, coach, and you were gonna say something else, one one other thing.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.359
The the other thing is, you know, pastors and and I have to deal with this too.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.759
There are times that we have to be careful with what we're bringing home.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:56.640
Yeah.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:12.480
And um, and so sometimes in the pastor, pastor's wife relationship, uh, it can be uh either way too much information shared, you know, because we're trying to process through everything, or we're not sharing anything at all.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:12.800
Yeah.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:28.079
And it is important to find the right balance because, you know, for a pastor's spouse, there is a very, very high uh desire to be protective and to be supportive and everything.
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.760
And sometimes we just need to process what we're dealing with.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.719
We're not actually looking for someone to become our defender.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:35.199
Yeah.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:49.920
And um, so it is it is appropriate to have conversations at home, but you want to have the right conversations because the last thing you want to do is have a situation where you've had to deal with conflict or a problem or something like that.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.960
You process it at home and you feel better.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:53.760
Yeah.
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:03.760
And then you go and go about go about your ministry day and in the coming weeks, but your spouse is sitting there ready to do battle for you.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:09.760
So now when that person um comes onto the radar again, there's, you know, you're fine.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.599
And your spouse is looking at this saying, We like them again?
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:14.559
What happened?
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:15.119
Yeah.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:20.400
And so it is important to have conversations at home.
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:27.760
Just be aware that there's a different way to look at it, you know, uh, as a pastor and a as in a pastor spouse.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.199
So does that make sense?
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:45.280
Yeah, because venture pastors, I I guarantee pastors here in the Northeast, not just our venture church pastors, but pastors in the Northeast probably are some of the loneliest people on the planet.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.760
So at least it feels that way sometimes.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:53.280
And the next loneliest person on the planet are our pastors' wives.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:01.440
And uh one of my commitments is to try to help pastors and their wives through these journeys.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:03.920
I just was talking to a pastor last week.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.320
His wife, they're in a brand new church.
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.199
Wife is feeling very lonely right now.
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:11.760
And uh yeah, it my heart aches.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:13.920
So so here's the last question.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:29.679
What would you say to a pastor who is right now feeling exhausted, unseen, feels ineffective, is uh thinking about calling it quits.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:33.440
Um what would you say to them directly right now, Jason?
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.800
I would say a couple things.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:50.239
I think the first thing I would say is um just on the encouragement end, um ministry is not easy.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:57.519
And I do think it takes a special person who is willing to actually journey into that.
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:03.920
Um your entire congregation could be having a great day and you could be having an awful one.
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.159
And they have no idea.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:16.079
They don't know the weight, they don't know the pain, they don't know the history, they don't know the pressure, um, they don't know the fear that comes in that.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.440
Those are real things.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:38.719
And so if you are in that place right now, um be encouraged, you know, because uh there's a whole lot of examples in the New Testament of difficult moments of people who were in ministry and they chose to be joyful, they chose to trust God in that because ministry was worth it.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.440
Um, so I would say that first.
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:48.880
Um, and I I say that not to minimize the difficulty, uh, because the difficulty is very real.
00:37:49.679 --> 00:38:01.840
Um the second thing I I I will say, Pastor, is you do need to be talking to other pastors just so you can build a circle of peers and relationships that you can journey with.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.400
That that is very important to have those.
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:08.079
And you know, uh, Pastor, you can reach out to me.
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.440
I I if I can fit it in, I'll be in that circle.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.360
You know, and Doug, you could be in that circle with them.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:18.559
I think there are um, but the more you can find someone who's local, the better.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:28.079
Somebody that you could get coffee with, somebody that you could easily hop, hop in a car and hey, can we go spend an hour and and just walk and talk about this?
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:30.800
Um that is really important.
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:42.639
And it may require you to literally get in the car, drive down to the church, you know, that's a couple miles down the road that you've never met the pastor, knock on the door and say, Hey, we've never met.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.199
If you're like me, this is hard.
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.039
You probably don't have a lot of friends.
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:48.719
How about we go get lunch?
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:55.360
And it might surprise you how welcome that conversation might be.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:04.000
And so be proactive and be intentional about trying to build those relationships, you know, with some other pastors.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:09.920
The third thing I will say is you need to uh gain some objectivity and some understanding.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:21.840
And so you do probably need a group like Keenley, you know, someone like me to come in and actually help you identify what is working and what is not working.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:27.679
Uh, when we don't know how to discern and understand those things, everything feels bad.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.000
Everything feels overwhelming.
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:39.119
And sometimes there are some really bright things in our own churches, even when we feel the weight of struggle, that if someone could come in and say, Don't you know how good this is?
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:41.199
Don't you know how unique this is?
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:47.920
Don't you know that your church of 65 people or 100 people is actually doing something really amazing?
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:53.119
And um, let's figure out how to do more of that amazing thing.
00:39:53.679 --> 00:40:01.840
And um, and so you know, I'd be happy to to you know do a strategy call um you know with within you know with anybody.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:09.119
You know, we we have several things that we can do that are fairly low cost to come in and actually help identify that.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:18.000
Um and um but you know it's pastor, I I will say this directly to the pastor, so I'm not saying this to you, Doug.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.320
I uh well, I guess I am saying it to you, Doug.
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:25.519
But um I don't think we are designed to do ministry alone.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:26.239
Yeah.
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:26.960
Yeah.
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:28.320
I really don't.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:45.119
And I think when you when you can bring the right people around you, you know, to to encourage you, to help point things out in a way that is loving and is trusted and and is for your good, the potential just goes up.
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:45.440
Yeah.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:54.000
And um, and so venture is is is here to do that, Keenley is here to do that, you know, and uh so happy to help in those moments.
00:40:54.320 --> 00:41:03.760
Well, I'm excited about the resources that Keenley is going to be providing and some new resources that are kind of coming down the pike, too.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:16.719
Um one of the ways that um I think uh Keenley can kind of connect with the Northeast is I'm really hoping, Jason, you'll be available to come and uh be with us.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:21.039
Uh we're representative from Keenley be with us in the fall.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:25.360
Um we are going to be bringing in, I don't know if I told you this or not.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.159
So we got November 15th and 16th.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:34.719
Um we are bringing in MacLake on that Monday, the 16th.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:48.159
Um, my my burden has been for this leadership pipeline, and I'm seeing too many pastors that are so overloaded, and many of them are troubled by this succession problem.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:50.079
They don't know who's next.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:54.239
They're retiring very soon, and they've got nobody themselves.
00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:06.239
And I don't have a list either, just to say I don't have anybody that's uh pounding on my door waiting to uh uh, you know, uh take on some of our churches here in the Northeast.
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:12.880
So so this leadership development pipeline is something I would really like to get rolling along here.
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:22.960
And uh it's between two people that I know of who do this, are doing it so well is one is your dad, and the other is Mac Mac Lake.
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:27.679
And uh so uh we want to get this ball rolling along here in the Northeast.
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:32.800
So, Jason, I look forward to uh the fall and hopefully you could be with us.
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:36.320
And uh yeah, we're looking forward to the future ahead here.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:38.239
So thank you so much, brother.
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:39.760
Thanks for being with us today.
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:41.119
God bless everybody.
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:42.559
Thanks for listening.
