Confronting Corruption and Cultivating Courage with Justin Carlson

WEBVTT
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And there were little things.
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You know change of assignments, you know things like that.
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That started happening but, man, I was cautious.
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I was cautious because I had seen it time and time again.
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Again, it had never happened to me, but I had seen plenty of colleagues in my own agency and across the country that it happened to.
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So I knew what was going to take place and that's why I planned my strategic exit, and you know, to this very day.
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You know, there was a time, man, when I was doing this, there was a time that I thought I was going to be indicted.
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Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
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Welcome back to the show.
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I'm so honored that you've decided to spend a few minutes with us here today, and we're very honored to have a sponsor for today's episode OfficerPrivacycom.
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I am super excited about today's guest.
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Today's guest is Justin Carlson.
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He's a former detective and owner at the Carlson Solutions PI firm.
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He's the founder of Failing Justice, one of the best podcasts dedicated to the criminal justice system that you will find podcast dedicated to the criminal justice system that you will find, and Justin is also at the tip of the spear when it comes to a balance of justice and individual rights.
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I'm really excited to have you here, justin.
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How are you doing, sir?
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Travis, I'm good man.
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I am and I'm honored to be on the show man.
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I appreciate that.
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Man, I've been intending to get you on for a while.
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You've been a busy guy.
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I love your background, I love what you do out there.
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We're going to get into all that, but before that, I mean obviously you have a background in law enforcement.
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You're doing things in the criminal justice system now, including your PI firm.
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You do background checks for agencies for pre-hire super important work.
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But what got you interested in law enforcement?
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Tell us a little bit about your career.
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Yeah, so I actually started when I was 18 years old.
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I come from a background of law enforcement.
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The only active member of my family still in law enforcement now is my uncle, but he's a chief deputy in Smith County, texas.
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But I come from a background in law enforcement, my aunts, both my grandfathers from a background in law enforcement, my aunts, both my grandfathers.
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My dad, he was law enforcement for a little while for the undercover narcotics and for Arkansas State Police, and so I just grew up around it.
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You know, I was that kid that watched cops on TV.
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I was that kid that went up to the jail, got to ride in the backseat of patrol cars, which you know you got to question the parenting on that of how unsanitary that is.
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But I just I grew up around it, man.
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And then my dad became a preacher.
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So I'm also a PK.
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But you know, I think for a while my dad probably wanted me to go in the ministry, and for a while my dad probably wanted me to go in the ministry and but I was just.
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I wanted to be a cop.
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And so when I was 18, I started my career in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, at the Bedford Police Department, and I just worked in the jail.
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I knew that, you know, from the time I was 18 to 21, I had to do, I had to work in the jail.
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So I did three years in the jail, which was most certainly a good, solid foundation for when I went to the police academy when I was 21.
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And so then I went to graduate the police I was 20, actually, but I graduated when I was 21.
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And then I hit the streets.
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Hit the streets running man.
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I was where I wanted to be.
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I knew that was my place and, of course, over the years I grew up through the ranks you know, went into CID, worked in, you know, did some white collar stuff for a little while.
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I specialized in child sex crimes, child physical abuse and then eventually went on to do homicides and I did some administration time during those years.
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But I did a total of 15 years.
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I stepped away for a little bit, came back.
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I wasn't quite certain and sure of myself when I stepped away.
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I wanted to dip my toe back in and try again, but then I realized, you know, I was better off in the private sector, which is where I'm at now and I do a lot of.
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I like what you said when you introduced me to me that was a very accurate introduction is I believe that I have a well-balanced.
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Well, I'm very, I'm very well balanced when it comes to criminal justice system.
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I'm also, you know, a lot of people think if, if some people listen to some of the things I say, especially police officers, they think, oh my gosh, you know this guy doesn't like police, but that's that's the furthest from the truth.
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I mean, some of my best friends are still cops.
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I love police officers, I love law enforcement, but, like you said, I also have a on the on the other side of the scale.
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I believe in individual rights, in the Constitution and that law enforcement should behave.
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So I do.
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I love the way that you introduced me and put that when when you said that I feel like I am pretty well balanced.
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But in short, in a nutshell, that's that's kind of how my career played out.
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Well it's.
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It's so interesting, Justin, because if you care about law enforcement, then you want to have the best law enforcement you possibly can.
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Right, we do so much.
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We listen to people that don't know anything about this profession that tries to fix us right, and of course, they just throw these ideas on the wall and anybody living in America in 2024 knows that didn't work right.
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We have a recruiting crisis, a retention crisis.
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Our crime rate, especially our violent crime rate, despite what Washington DC tells us, is completely out of control because they conveniently let the FBI not report about 50 percent of that violent crime for this election year politics, and so we, everybody living here understands that, and nobody's really pinpointing why that's happened.
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But part of the reason that's happened is because we are listening to people outside the profession.
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They're demanding us to get better and we're just listening to them versus us, who know how we can get better, and you touched on it.
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We should be constitutionally focused, focused on the mission, focused on not just customer service but individual rights, and you can do all of that and fight crime at the same time, and you, very fortunately, are sort of a lone voice to some of that.
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Why do you think you've gotten some of that backlash you talked about you've gotten some of that backlash you talked about.
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Well, to make a another long story short, um, there were some things that I faced when I was working major crimes, um, and those people can go listen my podcast that they'd like I won't tell the whole story, but there was some corruption that fell in my lap and you know, I was actually.
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I was actually at the time man, I was your, I was your soldier, I was the guy who just showed up, wanted to do a good job, wanted to put bad guys in jail for doing bad things to children, you know, and murdering people.
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And so when this stuff fell into my lap, I was just man, I was flabbergasted, I didn't know exactly how to handle it.
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And then, when I tried to handle it the right way and give it to the people that should have taken it and done the right thing, they didn't.
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They tried to cover a lot of it up, and so that's kind of what opened my eyes to the other side of the criminal legal system.
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So that's when I decided to get out and when I, when I was able to leave my agency again, it wasn't something I wanted to do.
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Leave my agency Again, it wasn't something I wanted to do.
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I thought I was going to be a cop for the rest of my life and that's you know.
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But I believe that you know there's a God above who puts pieces in place for a reason, and I think this was my journey.
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But when I decided to leave law enforcement, I feel like I had more of a voice right, and which is crazy.
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When you think about that, it's totally backwards.
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You should, even if you're in law enforcement, you should, be able to speak on what's right and what's just and not be in fear of your career being lost and character assassination and service credit assassination.
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But you know, that's besides the point.
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When I left, I started speaking on these things, which is what prompted me to start failing justice, and that's that was kind of the long way around to get to what you asked me.
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But why do I think I received some of the backlash?
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Because it was.
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It was during that time that I received I mean, I still see received backlash to this day, but it was during that time that it was really heightened because, um, I was exposing those that were police officers, that were police administrators, for malfeasance, behavior, things that shouldn't have been happening, and those that were attached to those police officers, those that were attached to those administrators.
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It ended up all being political.
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In the end, everything's got to be attached to something political.
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But the backlash was because I was speaking of of hey, this, this is not okay.
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We are police officers, the public puts their trust in us and we are supposed to be good stewards of that trust.
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And, yeah, man, I mean I just think that, uh, and it's again.
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It's so backwards because the police officers, those in law enforcement, are the ones that are supposed to be doing the right things, and we see it all the time Thanks to social media, so so often they aren't the ones that are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
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And that transcends not just corruption and misconduct.
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I mean that transcends into.
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I mean, look what your platform's built on leadership.
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I mean you've been on my podcast, we've talked about this.
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That transcends not just corruption and misconduct.
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I think everything begins with leadership, because if you have poor leadership, then you open the door for everything else, such as misconduct and corruption, and the list goes on and on, such as misconduct and corruption, and the list goes on and on and it trickles down.
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Yeah, I'm going to make a statement that may be surprising, but I don't think we have a corruption problem.
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I think we have a leadership problem, because bad actors in any profession is not unique.
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Right, you could name the profession.
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You have bad actors, but how do leaders deal with that?
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That's the answer, right.
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We're not looking for a perfect profession.
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Do leaders deal with that?
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That's the answer, right.
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We're not looking for a perfect profession.
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We're looking for a profession that deals with bad actors, whether it's the school teachers or the ministers and the scandals all over the CEO world we know of.
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Well, how do you deal with that?
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And typically, organizations get destroyed when they don't deal with it properly.
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I think most people understand, justin, I don't expect perfection, but what I do expect is leaders do what leaders need to do when that imperfection occurs.
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And so what you just described to me is we talked to a lot of guests that deal with.
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What you dealt with is you were disillusioned at some point in your career when you thought this career was full of great, courageous men and women doing the right thing at all levels, and you went face to face with cowardice, right, but you did something that so many don't do and I want to sort of dive into the bottom of that.
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You didn't know this was like a podcast on psychology, but I'm so curious on why you're a unicorn and why you rose up, you confronted it while everyone around you put their head down as those loyal soldiers and just kept moving.
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So what is it about you?
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And, by the way, before we get to that I'm going to come back to that I want to sort of tell our audience what.
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I don't know what happened to you when this happened, but I talked to so many people that has been through what you've done.
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When they stand up to cowards, so cowards have some elements and ammunition at their side.
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They have internal affairs, they have fellow soldiers that will assassinate your character, your reputation, and they'll use their internal affairs unit to literally try to destroy you, combined with character assassination to get you out of the profession.
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So when you confronted this, did the investigation start almost immediately on you?
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Well, so I was.
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I was a little bit smart actually.
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Um, I read the writing on the wall.
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I knew so, so, so this was when I say it was political, it was so political.
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I mean, we're talking district attorneys, judges, police chiefs, judges, police chiefs, uh, you know, district judges, county judges, mayors, city council Uh, I mean, it was so embedded.
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At the time I hadn't, I had no idea, but when I, in summary, they were trying to put a kid in jail that shouldn't have been in jail.
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Um, it was a case that I worked and the, the, the, the kid that they were putting it, they were trying to lock up.
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Um, it was a case that I worked and that the, the, the kid that they were putting it, they were trying to lock up.
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Um, I, I did not implicate that kid in my investigation, um, because I believed he was innocent.
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Um, and I had several things to corroborate that.
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So the mom of the kid that I was trying, that they were trying to lock up, had a relationship, a friendship, with the mayor and all these other political parties, all these other public officials.
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They didn't like that relationship and I didn't know this was going on.
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Man, again, I'm just the guy investigating.
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You're just doing the case, presenting the evidence and expecting everybody to do the right thing.
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Had no clue, and so I, once I saw how big it was, I I decided OK, you know I have two choices, you know I have two choices.
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I can.
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I can sit here and I know what's going to come if I do something while I'm still employed, because I knew exactly what was going to happen.
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Or I could leave.
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And so over a period of, I did go toe to toe with the DA.
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I did go toe to toe with the DA, and that that's that's what started.
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That's when I knew that something was eventually going to happen, because the DA had the power.
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Again, this is the this is the same DA, by the way, that has upheld Robert Robertson's execution warrant in Texas right now.
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But that's besides the point.
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I decided that I needed to leave.
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So over a period of three or four months, I started formulating my own plan, and that plan was to start a business in the private sector, and I had to do it cautiously and carefully.
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But I did do that and I left.
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I put in my two weeks notice.
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They had no clue it was coming.
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They had no clue.
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I was building my business, but I wasn't going to let what happened go because they were trying to put somebody.
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They were trying to lock somebody up that was innocent, and so I put in my two weeks notice and they let me work my two weeks notice every bit of that two week notice.
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And when I left pretty much immediately, is when I began to stand up.
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I created Failing Justice, I created the podcast and, um, I started putting these things out there and, um, you know that wasn't necessarily fun either.
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Um, because, you know, I was trying to find a place to reserve, I was trying to find an agency that would hold my license and my current agency that I had just left from.
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Going back to character assassination.
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They were trying to discredit my service record, which you know was.
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You know, know, I wasn't perfect, but there wasn't anything in there, just absurdly, uh, just anything egregious, and so that that's when all the attacks really began.
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I was, I, I felt like I didn't want to endure that while I was at the agency.
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Well, what cowards do?
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Jason, justin, I'm sorry, just to interrupt you briefly.
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That's the coward's playbook, right, Because you're right.
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If you wouldn't have resigned, they were going to get out, go after you, whatever, and listen.
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People may be listening to this that aren't in the profession, that don't understand this.
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If I'm behind your car on the highway, I can follow you until I see something wrong Turn signal weaving within the lines.
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Right, I can.
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If I look at somebody long enough, I will find a shred, a little shred of evidence to come after you.
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Well, that's what they do to law enforcement, right?
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So they were going to find whatever it took, even if they had to make it up to get you out of the agency.
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You saw that coming and you left.
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But the ironic thing, we hear this a lot.
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We just interviewed Steve Friend with the FBI or former FBI.
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Same thing, same description After you leave.
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It's not good enough for them because they're worried about you, what you're going to say or do.
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They'll go after you as a person, as a character, and they want to try to destroy future employment and you as a person, as a character, and they want to try to destroy future employment, and so that's what cowards do and people that may be listening to this.
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They'll think and that could never happen to me.
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Well, justin, you never thought it was going to happen to you.
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Steve friend, you never thought it was going to happen to you.
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Hell, I teach about this all over the country.
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I thought it would never happen to me.
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It happens all over the place when you stand up against these cowardly tyrants, right, and they are a sleeping giant Inside too many organizations and you saw this firsthand.
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Yeah, and you're absolutely right.
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I mean, I knew what was going to happen had I stayed, and so I planned.
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I planned my exit strategically but at the same time, in the back of my mind, I knew I put up enough fight while I was still there to let them know I wasn't going to accept what was happening.
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And there were little things change of assignments, things like that that that um started happening.
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But, uh, man, I was cautious.
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I was cautious because, um, I had seen it time and time again, again, and it had never happened to me.
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But I had seen plenty of colleagues, um, in my own agency and across the country that it happened to.
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So I knew what was going to take place and across the country that it happened to.
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So I knew what was going to take place and that's why I planned my strategic exit.
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And you know, to this very day, you know, there was a time, man, when I was doing this, there was a time that I thought I was going to be indicted.
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Yep, they use that.
00:20:05.555 --> 00:20:17.759
They do that as well, and that was a very scary time, and Justin, let me just interrupt you I'm sorry one more time because I want to describe to our audience how that happens.
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:18.844
Here's how you can indict an innocent person.
00:20:18.844 --> 00:20:20.088
Here's how I could indict Justin Carlson right now.
00:20:20.088 --> 00:20:24.201
Today, I simply write up an affidavit on everything that Justin's supposedly done.
00:20:24.201 --> 00:20:43.662
I never interviewed Justin, so I never have Justin's side of the story and I present that affidavit to the district attorney or a grand jury about everything you've done and they're going to indict you and, yes, chances are you're going to have to go get, pay a pretty good, hefty price to get a good lawyer, the things that you they've got to show that evidence in trial to convict you.
00:20:43.662 --> 00:20:59.204
They're not going to be able to show that evidence but by the time that two or three year time period went through and you have to go through a public trial, even if, even though you're found not guilty which likely would happen if you actually didn't do it They've destroyed you during that time period.
00:20:59.204 --> 00:21:06.357
That's how you indict innocent people from a law enforcement standpoint and if it's happening to law enforcement.
00:21:06.377 --> 00:21:17.667
As I speak and as I speak, as I speak and as I speak, there are multiple people I know that did nothing wrong were arrested or indicted and prosecuted by their own agency.
00:21:17.667 --> 00:21:20.269
Do you not think that happens to the general public?
00:21:20.269 --> 00:21:28.976
Of course it does, right, and you found that out.
00:21:28.976 --> 00:21:31.078
Now, that's not to mean that this is a common thing, but let's be honest here, let's.
00:21:31.078 --> 00:21:32.221
We just talked about the imperfection of people.
00:21:32.221 --> 00:21:35.906
There's only been one perfect person that walked this planet, and they don't work for your police department.
00:21:35.906 --> 00:21:46.788
I can guarantee you that this occurs, and so that's why you need courageous men and women at these agencies, like yourself, to stand up to this, because we will never root this out.
00:21:46.788 --> 00:21:50.505
I don't care what pledge or program or what school your chief went to.
00:21:50.505 --> 00:21:53.259
We have imperfection inside agencies.
00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:54.262
That's not the question.
00:21:54.262 --> 00:21:55.957
The question is what are we going to do about it?
00:21:55.957 --> 00:22:03.863
Justin, and in your case, a healthy organization with a healthy culture, what should have happened when you brought this to their attention?
00:22:04.866 --> 00:22:12.488
Yeah, I mean you said it a healthy culture in these law enforcement organizations across the country.
00:22:12.488 --> 00:22:21.038
And every now and then you find that unicorn agency right, I'm sure you know of a few of them.
00:22:21.038 --> 00:22:31.347
They're out there, they do exist, and I just wonder why it is that it can't exist across the board.
00:22:31.347 --> 00:22:55.576
And I think it comes back to cowardly leadership and having cowards in these positions of leadership who want to pander to the bureaucrats, their donors, and that's where you begin to have, you know, the lines get blurred and I completely agree with you.
00:22:55.576 --> 00:23:04.401
I think at the very end of the day, it comes to having a healthy, having a good leader who will make that organization healthy.
00:23:04.842 --> 00:23:08.513
I mean there's always going to be things that pop up in an organization that you have to deal with.
00:23:08.513 --> 00:23:09.499
I mean you talked about it earlier.
00:23:09.499 --> 00:23:11.286
I mean things that pop up in an organization that you have to deal with.
00:23:11.286 --> 00:23:12.086
I mean you talked about it earlier.
00:23:12.086 --> 00:23:12.548
I mean imperfection.
00:23:12.548 --> 00:23:13.589
Just it's human nature.
00:23:13.589 --> 00:23:18.679
You know, anytime you have humans involved with anything, you're going to have the error.
00:23:18.679 --> 00:23:23.488
None of us are infallible.
00:23:23.488 --> 00:23:26.798
You know, like you said, there was only one perfect person that walked the earth.
00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:35.541
But it's how you deal with these things as a leader that matter, because look, look at all, look who's watching.
00:23:35.541 --> 00:23:41.761
You have the general public watching, you have the news media watching, you have your, your officers watching.
00:23:41.761 --> 00:23:52.079
Everybody is watching the decision that you're going to make as a leader and, honestly, to me, it's not that hard, it's not difficult.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:24:01.945
If you're able to pass a state exam, you're able to go to college and get a degree, you're able to put a badge and a gun on and go out and make life or death decisions.
00:24:01.945 --> 00:24:09.310
You cannot tell me that you don't know the difference between right and wrong in pretty much any given situation.
00:24:09.310 --> 00:24:12.673
And if you don't know it, ask somebody as a leader.
00:24:12.673 --> 00:24:13.453
That's another problem.
00:24:13.473 --> 00:24:24.644
These leaders, I think they always have the know-it-all attitude I'm going to make the decision, nobody's going to tell me how to run my organization, and that's a problem too.
00:24:24.644 --> 00:24:30.579
There's people, there's resources available to these chiefs and these sheriffs and these captains and these lieutenants.
00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:52.397
Um, but man, I think it, like you said, it just comes down to to culture and, uh, in my particular case, what should have happened obviously is I should have been able to confidently bring this to the table and say this is a problem, um, and I'm presenting it to you.
00:24:52.397 --> 00:24:59.846
I expect you to handle it with integrity and but that's not what happened.
00:24:59.846 --> 00:25:13.545
All these people, all these public officials and these local politicians they were friends outside of work, so much of their get togethers and parties and alcohol, all this stuff got uncovered.
00:25:13.545 --> 00:25:21.929
And you know, I uncovered all that and I connected the dots as to why it wasn't handled or couldn't have been handled properly.
00:25:22.430 --> 00:25:23.112
When I was there.
00:25:23.112 --> 00:25:35.195
And you know the the, my administration completely agreed with the district attorney, even though they were wrong in that moment and they knew they were wrong.
00:25:35.195 --> 00:25:40.192
They ended up eventually dropping this charge on this kid because they knew they were wrong.
00:25:40.192 --> 00:25:48.534
I told them, first and foremost, I'm not going to show up and my testimony is not going to reflect what you want it to, and so they ended up dropping it long, you know.
00:25:48.534 --> 00:25:49.538
Again, long story short.
00:25:49.538 --> 00:26:02.192
But it goes back to the culture and, like you said earlier, I think everything, quite literally everything in law enforcement, begins at the top, with leadership.
00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:08.472
You know, the federal government's got a whistleblower policy and now they get around that.
00:26:08.472 --> 00:26:11.147
Steve Framble described that specifically.
00:26:11.147 --> 00:26:16.920
But do you know of any agencies that have an actual policy for whistleblower status?
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:18.599
Because this is kind of what we're talking about here.
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:20.403
People, you're the only one.
00:26:20.704 --> 00:26:27.757
I'm going to assume that you were the one of the few that would stand up like this, but most people won't, because they fear retribution.
00:26:27.757 --> 00:26:30.305
Right, that's the difference between courage and cowards.
00:26:30.305 --> 00:26:32.190
Courageous, they know what's right and wrong.
00:26:32.190 --> 00:26:34.542
Just like you said, they're going to do what's right, no matter what.
00:26:34.542 --> 00:26:38.869
They work with a set of principles where nobody's going to get in the way of those principles.
00:26:38.869 --> 00:26:43.547
Well, law enforcement is in a state of fear of everybody, particularly their management oftentimes.
00:26:43.547 --> 00:26:46.204
I don't want anybody to get depressed and we're talking about all agencies.
00:26:46.204 --> 00:26:46.928
Of course we're not.
00:26:46.928 --> 00:26:52.487
You're an idiot if you think that, but we need to talk about the agencies that are like this or we're never going to solve this issue.
00:26:52.487 --> 00:26:55.683
Just like you, justin, people get upset at the things I say.
00:26:55.723 --> 00:27:01.513
I was canceled from two conferences this year and because they didn't want to hear this type of thing, which I'm like.
00:27:01.513 --> 00:27:09.809
Good, if you don't want to hear from me, then I know I should never come back to your conference because I know what you're about and because I want to know right up front and I don't want to solve it.
00:27:09.809 --> 00:27:11.586
You don't talk about the problem, you don't solve it.
00:27:11.586 --> 00:27:26.194
So would that not make a strong statement as a leader if you took a bold stance and implemented a policy to protect people like yourself that wanted to see corruption?
00:27:26.194 --> 00:27:27.681
Because we, we do that when it makes the leaders look good.
00:27:27.721 --> 00:27:30.006
Right, oh, we have a, whatever they call it.
00:27:30.006 --> 00:27:34.241
You can interrupt use of force at any time and stop it.
00:27:34.241 --> 00:27:41.210
You know, if you don't do it from a backing officer and stop this excessive force that you perceive to be excessive, then we're going to discipline you.
00:27:41.210 --> 00:27:48.226
Well, what about the chiefs that do things like this to you?
00:27:48.226 --> 00:27:50.154
That may not be on a body camera, but they're even more destructive oftentimes?
00:27:50.154 --> 00:27:54.367
What if they would take the boat stance to implement an actual policy to protect people like yourself?
00:27:54.367 --> 00:27:55.571
Would that not send a message?
00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:57.882
No, yeah, it absolutely would.
00:27:57.882 --> 00:28:07.325
Now I don't just sitting here thinking right off the bat there's no agency that comes to mind.
00:28:07.325 --> 00:28:25.102
Obviously I'm not going to say that that doesn't exist, but there's no agency that comes to mind Number one that I know of currently or number two that I have ever heard of, number two that I have ever heard of.
00:28:25.102 --> 00:28:31.900
You know, you do a lot more traveling and go to a lot of agencies, so maybe you have that insight and that knowledge, but, as of right now, I don't know of an agency that has the whistleblower policy.
00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:53.790
So I mean, of course, at face value, everybody likes in these piddly handbooks and these SOPs that you have at these organizations and at these cities and these counties, it'll obviously say, yeah, you can come report, but, travis, in my experience you can't come report.
00:28:53.790 --> 00:28:59.300
And so, yeah, I think it would make a very bold statement.
00:28:59.320 --> 00:29:12.915
But you know a lot of the times, you know what's crazy is a lot of the times when you, when you go, report these, these, this misconduct and these things, it involves some of the top people.
00:29:12.915 --> 00:29:24.925
And you know, when you have the top people that are involved in the misconduct, then I mean that's obviously a problem because you know who's going to investigate that right?
00:29:24.925 --> 00:29:43.233
And the problem is these, a lot of these people form these relationships and so they feel bound by their relationship with each other to overlook some things, and so, again, that just goes back to cowards and that's all that is.
00:29:43.233 --> 00:29:48.570
And it runs rampant, man, it just runs rampant in our law enforcement agencies today.
00:29:48.570 --> 00:29:54.849
And it's sad because then you have organizations, one in particular that I can think of.
00:29:55.711 --> 00:29:59.208
I've had the co-chair on my podcast, the Lamplighter Project.
00:29:59.208 --> 00:30:00.992
Um, those are all cops.
00:30:00.992 --> 00:30:04.028
I don't know if you ever heard of it, but the Lamplighter Project, those are all cops.
00:30:04.028 --> 00:30:23.891
Um, who formed that nonprofit for other cops to be able to come to them when they are whistleblowers, and, um, they helped them through, uh, a lot of the the procedures and processes, but, um, processes.
00:30:23.891 --> 00:30:27.195
But it's unfortunate that we don't have that built into our agencies.
00:30:27.980 --> 00:30:33.045
Well, it says everything that you don't know of an agency and I don't know of an agency, and most of us just talk.
00:30:33.045 --> 00:30:39.749
Now you're right about one thing you could put a policy out, but the policy is only good if it's actually enforced, if it's actually practiced.
00:30:39.749 --> 00:30:44.268
It's like when these chiefs go oh I have an open door policy, well, good luck getting anybody coming in your door.
00:30:44.268 --> 00:30:47.080
If they don't, if you've created a toxic culture, right.
00:30:47.080 --> 00:30:49.108
But they love to check the box and say that.
00:30:49.108 --> 00:30:50.727
So I'm going to talk about a check the box policy.
00:30:50.727 --> 00:30:52.224
I want to just challenge our listeners.
00:30:52.224 --> 00:30:54.786
We have chiefs, we have sheriffs listening to this.
00:30:54.786 --> 00:30:56.781
You need that policy.
00:30:56.781 --> 00:31:06.148
You need to assure your people that you will root out corruption, and we will send you a model policy, we will send you the ideology on how to do this.
00:31:06.148 --> 00:31:09.826
One of the things that we like to advocate is anonymous phone numbers.
00:31:09.826 --> 00:31:11.691
Right, like I can report something anonymously.
00:31:11.691 --> 00:31:14.551
Well, you let citizens report things anonymously on your officers.
00:31:14.551 --> 00:31:17.163
Why would you not let your own officers report things anonymously?
00:31:17.163 --> 00:31:19.711
And I know people are going to go oh, this is going to create chaos.
00:31:19.711 --> 00:31:24.540
No, it won't.
00:31:24.540 --> 00:31:31.905
You'll know real quick whether it's somebody playing a game or trolling, or it's accurate, right, but, but you have to actually get that information, and so I don't think I'm going to have a string of emails people wanting to do it.
00:31:31.905 --> 00:31:35.561
But that's a problem in the profession and that doesn't.
00:31:35.561 --> 00:31:38.546
That doesn't mean that we think all these agencies are horrible.
00:31:38.546 --> 00:31:43.372
It just means that if you don't have these instruments in place, what does that say about you, right?
00:31:43.372 --> 00:31:46.076
I'm not sure how to answer that.
00:31:46.076 --> 00:31:50.932
We have a lot to fix in the profession and listen, that's why we both do what we do.
00:31:50.932 --> 00:31:54.998
We may do it from different angles or different platforms, but we both want the most.
00:31:54.998 --> 00:31:55.480
Professional.
00:31:55.480 --> 00:32:02.820
Law enforcement is out there and, by the way, listening to insane people with purple hair has not done it for us, trust me.
00:32:02.820 --> 00:32:05.588
If it did, I would be advocating for it, but that's not going to work.
00:32:05.588 --> 00:32:18.628
Just look around, you're doing that now and that doesn't work, and so, um, so we need some of these, uh, instruments of accountability in place, and uh, that seems to be very easy to do, right?
00:32:18.628 --> 00:32:24.969
And uh, the fact there has to be a nonprofit that exists to take care of these whistleblowers is shocking.
00:32:24.969 --> 00:32:26.857
It should be shocking in any organization.
00:32:26.857 --> 00:32:32.792
I would just submit this to you If any private company didn't have this type of policy, that would be well known.
00:32:32.792 --> 00:32:42.029
People would be outraged by that right, and so the fact that we don't have some sort of effort to do this is pretty surprising, and so I think we have more things to talk about.
00:32:42.069 --> 00:32:45.871
Justin, I want to get back to a question I asked you several minutes ago because it's really important.
00:32:45.871 --> 00:32:49.769
I think I know the answer, because everybody I ask this question gives me the same answer.
00:32:49.769 --> 00:32:50.811
Why are you different?
00:32:50.811 --> 00:32:53.729
What made you stand up?
00:32:53.729 --> 00:32:58.392
Because I want to express this to our audience how difficult this is to do.
00:32:58.392 --> 00:33:02.548
You stand up and nobody else stands up with you.
00:33:02.548 --> 00:33:08.411
That's a pretty isolated thing to go through, and there's trauma involved in that.
00:33:08.411 --> 00:33:12.567
Whether you want to admit it or not, this profession was not what you thought it was.
00:33:12.567 --> 00:33:27.737
You know we're all recruited in this profession of God bless America, red, white, blue, good versus evil, but you don't realize the evil's setting across from you at a squad table and um, but what made you stand up when everybody else sat down?
00:33:27.737 --> 00:33:39.189
What is it about you specifically because I'm obsessed with this and the characteristics behind this what was it about you specifically that made you do the right thing when the costs were tremendous?
00:33:40.612 --> 00:33:45.785
Well, here's the thing, Travis, the reason.
00:33:45.785 --> 00:33:54.781
I know this happens and it's not isolated, and I know that it happens in many places.
00:33:54.781 --> 00:33:56.768
This happened to me twice.
00:33:56.768 --> 00:34:04.593
Actually, I had told you that I got out of law enforcement for about two years.
00:34:04.593 --> 00:34:06.183
I had a very successful private business.
00:34:06.183 --> 00:34:09.134
Um, I mean, I was making.
00:34:09.134 --> 00:34:18.244
I was I mean I made a quarter million dollars in a year and a half and that was that's not law enforcement, money like that's money that I was like what is going on?
00:34:18.864 --> 00:34:30.112
But I didn't, I didn't have a sense of purpose during that time and that's what made me say I only got out if let's, let's be clear here.
00:34:30.112 --> 00:34:36.751
I thought, and I tried to convince myself that I got out because I was tired of law enforcement.
00:34:36.751 --> 00:34:38.563
I wasn't tired of law enforcement.
00:34:38.563 --> 00:34:44.385
Um, yeah, there were some things that you know working child sex crimes for five years in a row.
00:34:44.385 --> 00:34:48.273
That'll take a toll on your mental health.
00:34:48.273 --> 00:34:54.371
But I was convinced and I told everybody that I was just tired of law enforcement.
00:34:54.411 --> 00:34:57.733
But the fact is, I got out because I wanted to expose some serious corruption.
00:34:57.733 --> 00:35:04.862
And then, two years later, I sold my private business and I got back in law enforcement, which is right around.
00:35:04.862 --> 00:35:20.764
You know, you met me when I worked at my last agency and, man, there was a lot of things going on there misappropriation of funds, and I'm just like what is going on right now.
00:35:20.764 --> 00:35:24.532
You know why am I faced with this again?
00:35:24.532 --> 00:35:31.878
And a lot of those people, a lot of my, a lot of those people who dislike what I do, say well, problems, just follow you.
00:35:31.878 --> 00:35:35.349
And I said, I mean, I guess that's maybe one take.
00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.146
Well, it's not an accurate take.
00:35:38.146 --> 00:35:40.608
That's a take of people with their head in the sand right.
00:35:41.780 --> 00:36:02.920
Again, I'm a believer that all things happen for a reason and that maybe I was meant to go to this agency because when I started exposing these things at this other agency now I did at that agency manager was somebody that I.
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:05.344
I just I felt that he was going to handle things properly and so I took it to him.
00:36:05.344 --> 00:36:18.742
I took it all to him, I had receipts in my hand and they covered it up I mean, covered it up with a heavy wool blanket, and I wasn't accepting of that.
00:36:18.742 --> 00:36:23.005
I didn't accept that, and so I told them I didn't accept that.
00:36:23.005 --> 00:36:24.186
They fired me.
00:36:24.186 --> 00:36:35.271
I was actually fired from that agency and that lit a fire under my rear end, because it's the first time I'd ever been fired.
00:36:35.271 --> 00:36:37.972
It was an experience, I assure you it was.
00:36:37.972 --> 00:36:38.811
It was an experience.
00:36:38.811 --> 00:36:46.775
And eight weeks later, uh, that fire under my rear end led to that chief getting the chief that fired me.
00:36:46.775 --> 00:36:51.657
He got fired because of everything that I was trying to show them, but they covered it up.
00:36:52.057 --> 00:37:02.971
And then what happens when you, um, what happens when you cover things up?
00:37:02.971 --> 00:37:08.545
It starts to seep out, and so, um, my point is, um, I tell that story to to kind of lay a foundation.
00:37:08.545 --> 00:37:16.380
To answer your question, I don't know exactly what it is about me.
00:37:16.380 --> 00:37:19.465
Um, there are a few things.
00:37:19.465 --> 00:37:43.483
I just find it that when I raised my right hand just as you did and so many of the others probably listening to this podcast and took an oath and I know this sounds so cliche, I'm not trying to sound noble, I'm not trying to just, oh, you know, I'm just this big, courageous person.
00:37:43.483 --> 00:37:48.577
But, man, I take that serious and I equate it to a child.
00:37:48.577 --> 00:38:03.016
We have children, we have young children, and those children, whether they know it or not, trust us to look after them.
00:38:03.016 --> 00:38:04.798
And it's the same with law enforcement.
00:38:04.798 --> 00:38:07.643
We are put in those positions.
00:38:07.643 --> 00:38:09.304
Leaders are put in those positions.
00:38:09.304 --> 00:38:18.715
Chiefs, sheriffs, street cops, jailers, judges, district attorneys, you name it.
00:38:18.715 --> 00:38:19.818
All of these people are put in these positions.
00:38:19.818 --> 00:38:52.231
They're positions of trust and, like I said earlier, we are supposed to be good stewards of the trust of the public and when that is violated, it just doesn't sit right with me, um, because it that's not, it's just not okay and it just doesn't sit right with me, and so maybe God put that in me just to be the kind of person that I am.
00:38:52.231 --> 00:39:01.934
Again, I don't like to think more highly of myself than I should, but I just I believe God built me for that.
00:39:01.934 --> 00:39:09.074
I don't know why, because, you're right, it does feel sometimes like you're on an island, very lonely.
00:39:09.597 --> 00:39:21.884
But some of the encouragement that I get and you know what's crazy about this too, travis, is a lot of the encouragement I get, um are from active cops who inbox me.
00:39:21.884 --> 00:39:33.036
They're too afraid to put something on a public comment section, whether whether it be YouTube or Facebook or TikTok, instagram, you name it.
00:39:33.036 --> 00:39:49.255
I get a ton of inbox messages, emails saying hey, you know, I'm a cop in Maine, I'm a cop in Michigan, I'm a cop in Virginia I found your podcast, man, we appreciate what you do or even a lot of cops from my two previous agencies, and you know why that is.
00:39:49.255 --> 00:39:58.371
It's because they're in fear that if they come out in support of what is right and what is just, then they are.
00:39:58.371 --> 00:40:04.903
They are fearful that they're going to lose their jobs too, and that is nothing short of disgusting in my opinion.
00:40:11.250 --> 00:40:24.101
In my opinion, it you nobody should have fear lingering over them, that that they're going to get fired or demoted or written up or have any kind of hardship at work because they stand up for what's just and what's right.
00:40:24.101 --> 00:40:44.963
And you know, I don't know if I directly answered your question, but, uh, as tough as it is, um, I look at my journey and I know that God put me in this position, uh, for, for a reason, and um, I've, I've seen the fruits of, of, of that labor.
00:40:47.690 --> 00:40:53.730
Justin Carlson, you did what these is the purpose and mission with us here at courageous leadership.
00:40:53.730 --> 00:40:57.050
You put that coward out to the rest home and that's what we want to do with all of them.
00:40:57.050 --> 00:40:59.317
We want to eradicate the cowards in this profession.
00:40:59.317 --> 00:41:02.635
Um, I'm honored you came on the show.
00:41:02.635 --> 00:41:04.420
I'm so thankful for what you do.
00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:05.853
How can people reach you?
00:41:05.853 --> 00:41:07.380
How can they listen to the podcast?
00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:09.715
Kind of give them all that, all that tidbit of information.
00:41:10.918 --> 00:41:13.143
Yeah, so you can go to failingjusticeorg.
00:41:13.143 --> 00:41:16.411
That's where all my information is.
00:41:16.411 --> 00:41:23.063
There's podcast links for YouTube, spotify, apple or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:23.063 --> 00:41:31.873
We're pretty much on all the major podcast platforms, so failingjust um, and then carlssonsolutionsnet, which is my private investigations firm.
00:41:31.873 --> 00:41:50.065
Um, if anybody needs private investigations or um background checks for their law enforcement agency, uh, we have a team of guys that uh former detectives that work on those, and so, um, carlssonsolutions net or failing justice dot org is how you can reach me.
00:41:52.030 --> 00:42:03.369
Well, earlier in the show we talked about some easy actions that courageous leaders can do, which is to implement a whistleblower type policy even anonymous reports for corruption or bad dealings inside an agency.
00:42:03.369 --> 00:42:10.981
But let me encourage them to do one more action item and it's just brought to mind because, obviously, background checks are extremely important.
00:42:10.981 --> 00:42:20.505
I think it's even more important to have a third party do those, justin, because then if something happens down the line, they don't accuse the agency of missing something.
00:42:20.505 --> 00:42:27.659
There's been plenty of reports on that and, of course, the trouble that comes with that, and so having an independent agency do that is important.
00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:29.934
You do that with that, and so having an independent agency do that is important.
00:42:29.934 --> 00:42:30.195
You do that.
00:42:30.215 --> 00:42:35.414
But the other thing that local law enforcement typically doesn't do is, believe it or not, the federal government does do this law enforcement.
00:42:35.414 --> 00:42:43.780
They do background checks every five years on their employees, and I haven't heard of an agency unless you're in narcotics do that.
00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:55.543
And that seems to be odd to me, because when you hire a 21, 25 year old kid, they have one background, but when they're 40, they have a different background, and we tend to just hide our eyes and ignore all of that.
00:42:55.543 --> 00:43:03.204
I think it would be extremely important for law enforcement to do these background checks every five years.
00:43:03.204 --> 00:43:04.253
That's the federal standard.
00:43:04.273 --> 00:43:07.994
If you want to push that to 10 years, that's one thing, but at least do multiple background checks.
00:43:07.994 --> 00:43:11.643
And you're not doing that because you think your department's full of these bad actors.
00:43:11.643 --> 00:43:19.840
You're doing that to get left of bane, to get left of a problem, right, and then do not not just to get people in trouble, but maybe people need help, right.
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:20.041
That's.
00:43:20.041 --> 00:43:29.530
That's part of caring for your department, caring for your officers, and so that is also something we should start doing, and I I would assume, justin, your company would do that as well.
00:43:30.672 --> 00:43:32.396
Yeah, and I mean you do make a good point.
00:43:32.396 --> 00:43:38.157
You put somebody that's green behind the ear, 21 years old, be a police officer.
00:43:38.157 --> 00:43:45.213
You know, five, 10 years later they may be two divorces under their belt and just PTSD ridden from.
00:43:45.213 --> 00:43:47.916
No them what they faced when they were a police officer.
00:43:47.916 --> 00:43:57.695
And again, not to scare the police officers or make them feel like they're in trouble, but I think you made a great point.
00:43:58.135 --> 00:44:00.965
There's so many officers out there and they don't.
00:44:00.965 --> 00:44:08.251
They're not just afraid to say anything about misconduct, but a lot of them are afraid to say and I'm sure I've listened to your podcast.
00:44:08.251 --> 00:44:10.195
Y'all talked about this plenty about their mental health.
00:44:10.195 --> 00:44:16.257
So, um, there's plenty of reasons to uh conduct a periodic background checks.
00:44:16.257 --> 00:44:21.380
Again, whether you say five years or 10 years, um, that is something that that, uh, we would do.
00:44:21.380 --> 00:44:27.222
And and, uh, our team that does the background checks, we're um, all certified to do those checks.
00:44:27.222 --> 00:44:35.704
We did them as law enforcement officers, so we all know what we're doing and how to do it and what law enforcement agencies expect.
00:44:35.704 --> 00:44:43.893
And so if there's anybody that needs that background check that is a law enforcement agency, reach out to us.
00:44:43.893 --> 00:44:48.882
Whether it's one or 50, you know we can accommodate it all.
00:44:49.951 --> 00:44:50.251
Excellent.
00:44:50.251 --> 00:44:54.960
Justin Carlson, thanks so much for being here and, if you've been listening, thank you for spending your time with us.
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.518
And just remember lead on and stay courageous.
00:44:59.911 --> 00:45:02.840
Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates.
00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:06.097
We invite you to join other courageous leaders at www.
00:45:06.097 --> 00:45:06.097
travisyates.
00:45:06.097 --> 00:45:07.400
org.