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Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American.
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Hosted by Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackley and featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals, and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
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Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H.
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Smith Center for the Constitution and James Madison's Montpelier.
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Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey with James Madison's Montpelier.
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When we think about religious freedom in early America, two names immediately come to mind: Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.
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Together, they helped establish one of the nation's most cherished constitutional principles, the idea that government should neither establish religion nor interfere with the free exercise of religious belief.
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Jefferson and Madison agreed on a lot in regard to religious liberty.
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For example, both opposed religious establishments.
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Both believed conscience was beyond the proper reach of government.
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And both argued that individuals should never be compelled to support a faith they did not believe in.
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Yet, despite their remarkable agreement on policy, they often spoke about religious freedom in profoundly different ways.
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Today, we're examining one of the most, in my opinion, fascinating relationships in American constitutional history.
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That between James Madison and Thomas Jefferson.
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And specifically, how these two architects of religious liberty talked about religious freedom.
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Informing the conversation today is someone we've had in the studio before with us, Dr.
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John Regosta.
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You may remember he is a historian, lawyer, and award-winning author.
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He is a fellow at Virginia Humanities and was previously the interim director of the Robert H.
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Smith International Center for Jefferson Studies at Monticello.
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And he is currently Montpelier's 2026 inaugural James Madison Fellow.
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Welcome back, John.
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It's great to have you in the studio with us again.
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Katie, thank you.
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It's always a great pleasure to be here.
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Now you are an expert on this topic.
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You've spoken to religious freedom before, but today we're taking a different approach.
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And I want to begin with a broad question.
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So we often pair Madison and Jefferson together as, you know, champions of religious liberty.
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But before we talk about their differences, how similar were their views on religious freedom exactly?
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Did they largely agree on these principles?
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What did that look like between them?
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Katie, it's a good question because we do think of Jefferson and Madison almost as a team.
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And when I would teach the issue of religious freedom, I would often say that Jefferson and Madison are close politically.
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On religious freedom, they are very close.
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They are very close.
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There were minor differences.
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So for example, Jefferson at one point said that ministers should not be allowed to be elected to government offices, shouldn't allow a person who's a minister to be a government legislature.
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And Madison sort of said, you know, gee, Tom, that's not really a good idea, and convinces Jefferson that that's really discriminating against religion, which they are opposed to.
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And if you think about that, how important that was, um, Reverend Ralph Warnock, we've had people who are ministers who become legislators.
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But on religious freedom, they are very, very close.
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But as your introduction suggested, they come at it from a somewhat different perspective.
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So if they agreed on so much, why is it worthwhile for us to have this conversation and pay attention to the differences and how they talked about religious liberty?
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What can we read into that and understand from their words?
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Well, I think when you look at why they supported religious liberty and religious freedom and separation of church and state, and then you look at those differences, it becomes very important to our modern understanding of religious freedom and separation of church and state.
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So Jefferson and Madison both have political reasons, they have philosophical reasons, and they have theological reasons.
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A lot of historians don't talk about that, but they have theological reasons why they support religious freedom and separation of church and state.
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But as I said, they come at it in a different way and in ways that are informative.
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Jefferson, it's almost an intellectual exercise.
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And that's important.
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Jefferson's one of America's great thinkers, but he's realized that for the country, we have to have separation of church and state.
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We have to have religious freedom.
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So political freedom.
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Jefferson talks about American religious freedom is for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Muhammadan, the Hindu and the infidel of every denomination.
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And he's saying in America, we're going to have people from all sorts of different ethnicities, all sorts of different religions, different classes.
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We've got to be able to work together, or we're going to have wars over religion, like they have in Europe.
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Again, Jefferson, oceans of human blood.
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Oceans of human blood have been spilled over these religious wars.
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We can't do that in America.
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And we'll come to the theological in a moment.
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Madison feels equally strong about this issue, but comes at it from a different perspective.
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Madison, in one of his earliest letters that we have, 1774, he's writing a good friend from college.
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He's writing William Bradford, and he's so upset because in the next county over, there are four Baptist ministers in jail for preaching without a license, because Virginia is still technically an Anglican colony before the revolution.
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They're violating the law.
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Madison, as opposed to Jefferson's, you know, very intellectual, Madison writes William Bradford about that hell-conceived notion of persecution in this language, this hell-conceived principle of persecution.
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And then he talks about, he asks Bradford to pray for liberty of conscience.
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And what really got me thinking about this, I was doing an op-ed for Religious Freedom Day, Religious Freedom Day when we celebrate the adoption of the Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Establishing Religious Freedom.
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And I've done an op-ed for Religious Freedom Day for almost every year for the past 15, 20 years.
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And this year I was quoting a Madison statement about what happens when government gets involved in religion.
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And what Madison says is it is a perversion of the means of salvation.
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Now I've used that quote before.
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It's a great quote.
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You know, government involvement in religion is a perversion of the means of salvation.
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But I started turning it over and over again in my mind.
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And it occurred to me, I said, you know, Thomas Jefferson would have never said that.
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Just those words.
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He would have never said that government involvement in religion.
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He says it's wrong.
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He says we're going to get oceans of human blood.
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He says it's not going to work for America.
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But it is a perversion of the means of salvation.
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So I went to look, and I used that quote, as I said, many a times, but I started to look, is Madison's language on religious freedom different from Jefferson's?
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And what I started to find was over and over again, and I know you absolutely understand, words matter.
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Words matter.
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And so once I started looking at that different language, it really started dawning on me that yes, they're very, very, very close on religious freedom, but they're looking at it in a somewhat different manner.
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I really get a sense of the passion that both of these men have for this issue.
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And I think that's really reflected in the words.
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I want to pause for a moment and ask you.
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So we've talked on the podcast in previous episodes quite a bit about Madison's upbringing.
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We talk about him attending the College of New Jersey, Princeton, today, and how that experience was really formative for him.
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Now, as you referenced, you know, Virginia Colony at that time, there is kind of the sanctioned Church of Anglican, Anglican colony.
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Most of the wealthy white Anglican men in Virginia attend William and Mary.
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But Madison gets a different kind of educational background that's, I think, a little bit outside of this Anglican rich environment, this more religious freedom he's encountering when he's in school.
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What do we know about Jefferson and Madison and their own personal faith, beliefs, or educational background and how that influenced kind of what we're leading up to talking about today?
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Well, it's important to understand that background.
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I would point out Thomas Jefferson, he's hatched, matched, and dispatched Anglican.
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You know, he's baptized, he's married, and he's buried in the Anglican church.
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He's hatch, matched, and dispatched Anglican.
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But he's not Anglican.
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You know, that's his family tradition.
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That's what he was raised in.
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His parents had him baptized, he obviously had no say in it.
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Madison, by the way, is much the same.
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Madison is technically Anglican, his family is Anglican, uh, because that's the Church of England, that's the established church.
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But both of them end up really moving beyond that family background.
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And they get to it in different ways.
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I mean, again, for Jefferson, it's sort of this intellectual exercise.
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And in his youth, in his 30s and 40s, especially, he's really coming to the conclusion I don't really accept a lot of the fundamentals of Christianity.
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He rejects the divinity of Christ, he rejects the resurrection, he rejects atonement, he rejects biblical miracles.
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Nobody at that time or today would say that's a Christian.
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Madison's a little more complicated.
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And one of the things that I ought to say, um, we really need somebody to do a good book on Madison's religion.
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We really don't know as much as we would like to about Madison's religion.
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Now, part of that is Jefferson says, I don't talk about my religion.
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He's talking about his religion all the time.
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He's writing about his religion.
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Madison doesn't talk much about his religion.
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But as you say, he goes to Princeton.
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Uh John Witherspoon is the president of Princeton, Presbyterian from Scotland.
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And the Presbyterians, it's interesting because the Presbyterian religion is the established religion in Scotland.
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So Witherspoon's not necessarily opposed to establishment, but he does understand the issue of religious persecution because the Presbyterians had been persecuted in England.
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And so Madison, being educated in that kind of a tradition, I think, realizes, gee, this these fights over religious freedom can be violent, they can be disruptive.
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Jefferson talks about oceans of human blood.
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Madison talks about torrents of blood.
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And when he comes back, again, still a young man to Virginia in 1774, and he sees the persecution that's going on, he really takes that to heart.
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In fact, in that letter to Bradford, he says, this is one of the most vexing things I know.
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And for James Madison to say that as the revolution is about to start, he says, this disturbs me more than anything to see people thrown in jail because of their religion.
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So given this context, where these men are both coming to this kind of conclusion on their own about what their own religious beliefs are and how it kind of plays out within the broader society.
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You point to this example with Madison and the Baptist ministers.
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At what point do Madison and Jefferson start sharing these thoughts with each other, you know, coming from these different perspectives?
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Well, people often ask when do Madison and Jefferson meet?
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Because we know they're going to have this wonderful lifelong relationship.
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They actually meet in the fall of 1776.
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Jefferson has just returned from Philadelphia having drafted a small document called the Declaration of Independence.
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Madison is a very junior member of the new, brand new Virginia General Assembly.
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And they both become members of the Committee on Religion, trying to figure out what are we going to do?
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We had this established Anglican church in Virginia, and we're now going to be a new independent state.
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How are we going to deal with this?
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And the Committee on Religion, in which both, this is where Jefferson and Madison really first worked together, is trying to figure that out.
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And I think they very quickly realize that they are very much in line, as it coming different directions, but they very, very much agree that we have to have religious freedom and we have to have separation of church and state.
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Madison, of course, in June of 1776, before Jefferson, he's Jefferson's in Philadelphia, a little busy.
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But Madison takes an important role in drafting Article 16 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which historians often point out is really maybe the first written government declaration of religious freedom as opposed to religious toleration.
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We had a lot of, you know, well, we'll tolerate, we'll put up with those other religions.
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Madison in Article 16 drafts, no, we're going to have religious freedom in America.
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But once again, he's using religious language.
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He talks about Christian forbearance and Christian cooperation in that language.
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Now, he's ultimately going to get away from using Christianity.
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And in fact, he later talks very much about the country cannot choose between religions.
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But again, he's in that very first important public service.
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Madison's using this religious language.
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And then that's what they come back to in 1780s when they're having the debates over the Virginia statute.
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I love that you point this out, what Madison's doing that summer of 1776, being that really critical year.
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You know, obviously we think about Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence.
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But Madison is doing something pretty darn important as well, as you noted.
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And he's a young man.
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At that time, he's about what, mid-20s, when he's attending this Virginia convention, where it's important for him to help this group draft a constitution for the state, if it wants to be a state, kind of breaking away from the monarchy.
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And being so young and having such articulation, I think is very impressive.
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And I'm curious to know more about Madison specifically.
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One thing I think that stands out when reading Madison's writings, as you noted, is his choice of words.
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Madison, as we know, is a very intentional man in terms of his writing.
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How would you characterize Madison's language when he talks about religion and freedom of conscience?
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Are there particular words or phrases that we see repeating in his writing?
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Well, he uh to characterize it, I would say he uses a very reverential tone.
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It's this very reverential, it's this respectful, this religious tone.
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So, and I I hate to use so many quotes, but let's talk about some of the things he says.
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In the Memorial and Remonstrance, critically important document, the Supreme Court regularly quotes the Memorial and Remonstrance as a central document to understand American religious freedom.
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He's complaining about the idea of government taxes supporting religion.
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And he says it is to weaken in those who profess this religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence and the patronage of its author, referring to Jesus.
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He goes on to say that religion talking about Christianity is a precious gift that it ought to be and may be imparted to the whole race of mankind.
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He talks about the dominion of false religions, the light of revelation, as opposed to people who continue in darkness.
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So he's using this religious language, this almost ministerial language, it's obstacles to the victorious progress of truth and unchristian timidity to have government try to deal with religion.
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But and and here's the important but, he still agrees with Jefferson with the idea that we have to have religious freedom and we have to have a strict separation of church and state.
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And so one of the most fundamental points about all of this, you started out by asking why, you know, do we care about any of this?
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Do we care about this language?
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That today it has become common for people to think or to attack the idea of separation of church and state as if it's anti-religious.
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And it wasn't.
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It wasn't to Jefferson, it wasn't to Madison, it wasn't to the 18th-century evangelicals who supported them, those Baptists who got thrown in jail because we had a state-established church.
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So the idea that Madison is using this very reverential, this very religious language and saying this is why we have to have religious freedom and separation of church and state is, I think, very telling, that it's simply a lie to say that separation of church and state is anti-religious.
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And we could talk about the history of that.
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We should come back to what happens in the 19th century with separation of church and state.
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But obviously, Madison, when you hear this language, conscience is the most sacred of all property, Madison writes.
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He obviously does not understand that separation of church and state, which he is deeply committed to, is in any way contrary or bad for religion.
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And you referenced memorial and remonstrance.
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Can you give us some context?
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You know, what is that?
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Why is Madison writing it?
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How does that fit into the bigger picture?
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Aaron Powell Well, thank you, Katie.
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That's critical.
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So we have an established church before the revolution.
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We have the Anglican Church as the established church in Virginia.
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Everyone pays taxes to support the Anglican Church.
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Doesn't matter if you're Baptist, Presbyterian, Quaker, you're paying taxes to support the Anglican Church.
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You also have to be married in the Anglican Church.
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The Anglican Church controls orphans and poor relief.
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The Anglican Church is the established church.
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During the revolution, that all gets negotiated.
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So initially we suspend the church tax and then we eliminate the church tax.
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We start to liberalize a little bit marriage that, okay, we'll let Baptists and Presbyterian ministers marry people in their own county, but they can't go outside of their county.
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So at the end of the war, we have liberalized to a significant extent, but we still have not eliminated the idea that the Anglican Church was going to be the established Church of Virginia.
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And at the end of the war in 1784, a proposal was made for what is referred to as a general assessment.
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And the idea is this will be fair.
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This will be fair.
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We're going to tax everybody to support religion, but then we'll ask them, Katie, who do you want your money to go to?
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Presbyterian, Baptist, and we'll spread it out.
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And so everybody will get some money.
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Christian, every Christian minister will get some money.
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So that's fair, right?
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And Madison and Jefferson and the evangelical Baptists and Presbyterians revolt at that idea and say, no, this is linking church and state.
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And you have Baptist ministers saying it corrupts both to link church and state.
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One Baptist minister says the unhallowed marriage between church and state must be forever put asunder.
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And Madison writes this famous document, The Memorial and Remonstrance, and it's this long list, it's a list of 15 paragraphs saying why.
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Each paragraph begins with because.
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Why do we think this is a very bad idea for government to get involved in religion?
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Because, because, because.
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And Madison lists 15 paragraphs.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:01.519
But over and over again, he's using this very religious language, which people at that time, again, today it's sort of striking.
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.440
Wait a minute, the Baptists supported separation of church and state.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:18.240
And yes, the Baptists and the Presbyterians, especially, those are the two largest non-Anglican denominations in Virginia, they had lived under a system of church-government cooperation.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.640
They understood what that meant.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.119
They understood how dangerous that was.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:33.359
So here you have this very Enlightenment statesman, Jefferson, in this very intellectual exercise saying we have to have religious freedom and separation of church and state.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:39.440
And then we have these evangelical Baptists and Presbyterians saying, we've been through that.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.079
We have to have separation of church and state.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:46.640
And Madison, to some extent, is a little bit of a bridge in that regard.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:54.079
Here's Madison using this very reverential language, this very religious language, saying, yes, we have to have separation of church and state.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.319
And that's the memorial and remonstrance.
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.759
But again, when I went looking for this, he does it over and over.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.160
And over again, and he does it throughout his life.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:17.119
In the 1792 National Gazette, that's the conscience is the most sacred of all property, the detached memoranda, which he writes in 1820, the sacred principle of religious liberty, sacred by giving to Caesar what belongs to God.
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.759
So he's using these biblical stories.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.039
1813, his message to Congress, light of divine truth.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.839
We have to be conscious of the light of divine truth.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:29.839
Jefferson wouldn't have said that.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.880
But here's Madison talking about that.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:44.480
And what really sort of brought this home to me, sort of the home run in understanding this difference, was when the Virginia statute is adopted, and I probably should provide a little more background.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.400
So there's the general assessment proposal.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.480
Madison and the evangelical Presbyterians and Baptists come out opposed to it.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.079
It gets defeated, it gets sunk, and Madison says, aha, this is my chance.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.000
I'm going to introduce Jefferson's statute for establishing religious freedom.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.720
Jefferson's in Paris enjoying fine wine.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.920
Madison picks up the laboring ore and he introduces the statute.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:17.200
And the debates in the statute, it it passes by a large margin, and the statute very clearly is talking about separation of church and state.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:28.160
We find out years later that there was an effort made to introduce an amendment to the Virginia statute that would have specifically referred to Jesus Christ.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:34.640
The statute, Jefferson again, is using this very intellectual, very deistic, the holy author of our creation.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.359
Jefferson doesn't talk about Jesus.
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:39.839
But somebody wanted to introduce, there was an amendment.
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:44.559
Let's introduce Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:55.680
And both Jefferson and Madison tell us about that amendment and tell us that that amendment was defeated and then express why.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.200
But they express it in dramatically different terms.
00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:07.599
Madison talks about it was an experiment made on the reverence entertained for the name and sanctity of the Savior.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:12.559
And this is blasphemy to put Jesus' name in this into this legislative statute.
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:21.440
And he goes on to say better proof of reverence for that holy name would be having a separation of church and state and keeping Jesus out of this.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.839
Jefferson describing exactly the same incident, that's where the quote comes from.
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:32.160
American religious freedom is for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Muhammadan, the Hindu and the infidel of every denomination.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.599
Again, this very intellectual, very academic, very important.
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:39.680
I mean, Jefferson, I don't want to make light of Jefferson's statement.
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:45.119
As I point out, there's not a lot of Hindus in America when Jefferson says that.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:47.599
But he understands America is going to be a melting pot.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:53.599
We're going to have these people from all these different religions, these different ethnicities, these different backgrounds, these different cultures.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.119
That's going to be our strength, e pluribus unum.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.640
And we can't have these religious disputes.
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:10.160
But Madison describing exactly the same problem is using this language, reverence entertained for the sanctity of the Savior.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.200
It's dramatic.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:27.519
And as I said, I think in some ways, in a way that I did not really fully appreciate, when I and I'd worked on Madison and Jefferson and religious freedom for many years, but Madison really stands as a link between these evangelicals and Jefferson.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:48.160
And of course, on the Constitution, John Leland, famous Baptist minister, we're sitting in Orange, Virginia, just five, six miles north of town, the Leland Baptist Park, where John Leland, the Baptist minister, meets James Madison to say, look, if you want us to support the new Constitution, keep in mind it was dicey.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.880
We weren't sure that the Constitution was going to be ratified.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.400
It was a tough debate.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:59.279
And they say we've got to be promised, we've got to be confident that we're going to get religious freedom.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.519
And Madison and John Leland, um, the records aren't very good.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.440
Some people are a little dismissive.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:07.519
I think it's pretty clear they met.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:13.119
Madison says, I will defend religious freedom, I will defend separation of church and state.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:22.640
And John Leland, again, one of the most famous Baptist ministers in the 18th century, is absolutely committed to a strict separation of church and state.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:33.279
So it sounds like Madison being very reverential in his writing versus Jefferson, his words are more of an intellectual kind of approach.
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:40.640
Is it fair to say that that's kind of the big difference when you put Madison and Jefferson side by side and looking at how they're talking about religious freedom?
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.000
I think so, Katie.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:46.319
I mean, as I said, substantively, they are very, very close.
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:56.400
Again, there is sometimes you'll see modern jurists who are trying to attack separation of church and state will say, Madison didn't really believe in separation of church and state, because they they take some of this language.
00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.640
Madison is absolutely committed to a separation of church and state.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:06.480
He's absolutely committed, as is Jefferson, to broad religious freedom and free exercise.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.640
But that language is different.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:12.079
They're coming at it from these different perspectives.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.559
So, you know, give you an example, they say, well, Madison's not committed to a separation of church and state.
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:25.519
Jefferson, in the early republic, it was not uncommon in the colonial era to have a government declare, uh, do a proclamation.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:31.519
We're going to have a day of fasting and prayer, either in celebration, either in because we need help.
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:32.880
This is a crisis.
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.480
And that happened.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.599
Continental Congress would request proclamations.
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:42.240
George Washington issued proclamations, John Adams issued proclamations.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:43.599
Jefferson refuses.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:48.559
Jefferson says it's a violation of the First Amendment for the government to be telling people to pray.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:50.640
Madison does it.
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:57.279
During the War of 1812, Congress requests, Congress, uh joint resolution of Congress says, Mr.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.680
President, we want you to issue a prayer proclamation.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:01.279
Madison does it.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:04.960
Madison later concludes that was a mistake.
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.039
It's unconstitutional.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.039
So there's interesting things there.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.759
Jefferson says, I'm not going to do it because he's just intellectually.
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:13.680
Jefferson is hardcore.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.599
He is just set in his ways.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.559
Madison is trying to be a little bit more of a practical politician.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:21.599
He says, Well, I guess, I mean, you know, I guess we have to do this.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.359
Uh, but then he later says it was a mistake.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:24.480
I shouldn't have done it.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:33.279
But he also says, but I was always very, very clear when I did issue these proclamations to make clear it was voluntary.
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.359
The government cannot tell you to pray.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:36.880
That is wrong.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:46.880
And to never make it about Christianity, to always use very generic language because all religions are equal before our government.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:52.400
You know, and he's coming to that conclusion from this reverential perspective.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.839
So, for example, you know, is it separation of church and state?
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:03.519
In one of those prayer proclamations, Madison talks about the unhallowed connection with the powers of the world.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:05.920
Religion's unhallowed connection.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:16.960
Again, religious language, unhallowed connection with the powers of the world, it corrupts religion into an instrument or a usurper of the policy of the state.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:24.400
So reverential, religious, but absolutely committed to separation of church and state.
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:37.920
Given this, do these different rhetorical approaches reflect deeper differences and how they understood rights, freedom of conscience, and the role of government itself?
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:43.279
That's uh you know, it's always difficult to get into these gentlemen's minds.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:45.759
Um I don't think so.
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:55.759
I mean, Madison, um for example, uh Madison talks about uh he issues several presidential vetoes, which vetoes were not common at that time.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:58.240
It was always thought vetoes were going to be very uncommon.
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:06.319
And Madison issues several relating to religion, and one was related to a Baptist church in Mississippi.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:19.920
And what had happened was the surveyor, when they were surveying the land, there was government land and there was private land, and the private land was bought by a Baptist church, and the Baptist church built their meeting house, they built their church on this property.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.000
Well, the surveyor had made a mistake.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:28.720
And so they came back years later, and the surveyor says, no, wait a minute, the government property runs right through the middle of the Baptist church.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:32.160
And so, you know, we're gonna have to deal with this.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.519
And there was a law passed in Congress to basically give the Baptist church about five acres.
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.759
Just this was a mistake, we're not gonna make you tear down your church.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:43.519
You know, we heard this five acres.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.759
Madison vetoes that.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:53.839
And Madison says, look, um, if they want to buy, you know, we we'll treat a religion just like anybody else.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.480
If they want to buy the five acres, that's fine.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.039
You know, we don't want them to have to tear down their church.
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:04.079
But the government shouldn't be giving land to a church.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:10.880
So again, committed to separation of church and state, in some ways, maybe a little more of a practical politician than Jefferson.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.720
Yeah, I mean, you know, they're very close politically, but they are different people.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:17.119
Jefferson is a little bit more intellectual.
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:20.000
Madison can be more practical in some ways.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:26.400
But, you know, that incident, Jefferson certainly would have agreed with the result, but I think Jefferson probably would have been a little more dismissive.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.880
He would have just said, no, you can't have, we're not gonna give a Baptist church land.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:39.039
Um, and then the other veto that Madison makes, there was a law to incorporate the Episcopal Church in the District of Columbia.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:43.200
And they had fought about this question of should churches be incorporated?
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.200
This had been a big issue in Virginia.
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:50.160
And here's this church being incorporated in the District of Columbia.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:53.839
And the law comes to Madison's desk and he vetoes it.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:09.519
But he says, you know, the problem is that if you read this law, the law specifies how the Episcopal Church in Washington is going to run and who gets to vote, and also it gives them authority over poor relief.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:23.119
And he says, you know, I don't have any problem with a corporation, with a church can be incorporated just like anybody else to protect its land, to, you know, deal with fraud, to deal with commercial transactions.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:29.440
But the government should not be telling anybody how their church is going to be run.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.960
And so he vetoes it.
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.559
Again, Jefferson absolutely would have agreed with that.
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:40.960
Um so on church and state, is it they Jefferson and Madison are different people, we've got to keep that in mind.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:55.279
But I think on church and state, they almost always, I mentioned the one example up front about whether a minister could be a member of the legislature, but they almost always come to exactly the same conclusion, just from a little bit of a different perspective.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:56.799
UVA is another example.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.839
I mean, Jefferson, of course, is the first head of UVA.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:09.279
They don't call him president, and Madison's the second, and they insist that UVA not be a church school, because every other college in the country was a church school.
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.759
And Madison absolutely supports that.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:21.519
To wrap up today's conversation, John, can you tell us whether or not we're still debating these competing understandings of religious liberty today?
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:34.880
And what can modern Americans learn by paying attention not to just what Madison and Jefferson believed, but also the language they used to describe religious freedom.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:36.720
How is that still relevant?
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.759
We're absolutely still having these debates.
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:47.279
And in fact, it's somewhat astounding the extent to which they had dealt with a lot of the issues that we're still grappling with.
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:49.519
So the issue of religious exemptions.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:54.960
You know, if there's a law and it violates your religion, do you get an exemption from that law?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:02.000
Say a law says that you're not allowed to discriminate based on race or sexual orientation, but you make wedding cakes.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.680
And you say, gee, I don't want to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.239
Madison and Jefferson talk about that.
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:15.440
The Virginia statute makes it clear that no, if the law is a neutral law, then you don't get an exemption.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:23.119
You have to abide by the law just like anyone else, because we're not going to have government engaged in picking and choosing who gets these exemptions.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.519
An issue that's becoming very active.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.159
What about officials wanting to be religious?
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:35.679
So, okay, we're going to have separation from church and state, but what if you are the Secretary of Defense, let's say, and you're a religious person?
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:46.079
Well, Madison talks about that, and he says, you can be as religious as you want in their individual capacity, as distinct from their official station.
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:58.880
They, government officials, might unite in recommendations of any sort, whatever, in the same manner as any other individual might do, but then their recommendation ought to express the true character from which they emanate.
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:04.960
So government official can pray, they can pray publicly, they can't pray officially.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.199
Like you've heard me use that phrase before.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.480
They can pray publicly, they can't pray officially.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.320
Madison talks about that.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:26.719
Madison talks about the issue of coercion, how much government influence, uh, because we do have lawyers refer to as ceremonial deism, God save this honorable court, you know, in the Declaration of Independence, one nation under God.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:34.159
Madison and Jefferson say we should not have even psychological coercion.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:43.840
The government should not be picking what religions are good religions and what religions are bad religions, or saying that this religion uh should be supported.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.840
So, yes, those ideas are, I think, very much alive.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:59.039
Um, and I think one of the most important things to your final point, who, you know, what can we learn from all of this is I referred to earlier, this was not anti-religious.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.960
And in fact, I mentioned 19th century, I talk about the 19th century.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:09.119
One of the things that happens that's remarkable is once we have separation of church and state in America, what happens?
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.119
Well, we have the second great awakening.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:12.639
Religion explodes.
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:19.280
This is when we get Jehovah's Witnesses, this is when we get Latter-day Saints, this is when we get Onightans, this is when we get the Church of Christ.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:22.880
Because we now have a free market for religion, we're going to keep government out.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:35.760
And even people like Lyman Beecher, famous Presbyterian minister of the 19th century, had absolutely opposed separation of church and state, said Jefferson's wrong, Madison's wrong, that's bad, religion needs government support.
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:43.360
After it happens and government gets out, we we don't have an end in Massachusetts due government establishment till 1833.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:48.480
Lyman Beecher comes back later and says, you know, it's the best thing that ever happened to religion.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:55.599
Once we get government out and we have to rely on our own resources, we have to rely on God, religion flourishes.
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.679
Why is it that today we still have established religions all over Europe?
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:02.000
Church of England's still the established religion.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.360
We still have Catholicism in Italy, we still have Catholicism and Protestantism in different parts in Germany.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:08.639
Nobody goes to church.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.239
I've been to church in England.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.079
Nobody goes to church.
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:20.079
America is still a very heavily religious country, but partially because of separation of church and state.
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:26.239
And separation of church and state is one of the critical reasons why religion is so vibrant in America.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:29.599
And that's what Lyman Beecher came to understand.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:33.119
That's what the evangelicals understood in the 18th century.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:36.159
The evangelicals come to understand in the 19th century.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:41.280
And if we lose that, we're making a big mistake in the 21st century.
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.000
But, you know, as I said, this sort of surprised me.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.159
I love having an opportunity to talk about it.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:54.159
I hope I have an opportunity to go talk with groups about this because I think they would be surprised to hear this language from Madison over and over again.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:05.440
It's language that a religious person would absolutely embrace and then to understand he's talking about separation of church and state is such an important message.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.079
Thank you so much for sharing with us today.
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:17.760
It's really enlightening to hear about the differences between how Madison and Jefferson are approaching the idea of freedom of religion.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.920
And these examples that you provided from, you know, the veto is a great one.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:23.840
They are putting this into practice.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:29.199
We're seeing how it's playing out through their leadership in the political realm.
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:37.840
And the point you make, you know, the past really can provide guidance in the present is something that is so important for all of us to remember.
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.199
So thank you very much, Dr.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:41.920
John Ragusta, for being here in the studio with us today.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.519
Katie, it's always a pleasure.
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:44.880
Thanks so much for having me.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:47.119
And thank you for our listeners.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.360
We appreciate you tuning in, and please share the show with your family and friends.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:56.239
Tune in again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.
00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:11.439
Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:12.640
Hosted by Dr.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:27.440
Katie Crawford Lackley and featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals, and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:31.280
Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:36.159
Smith Center for the Constitution and James Madison's Montpelier.
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:41.920
Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution.
00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:43.200
I'm your host, Dr.
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:47.280
Katie Crawford Lackey with James Madison's Montpelier.
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:56.399
When we think about religious freedom in early America, two names immediately come to mind: Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.
00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:10.879
Together, they helped establish one of the nation's most cherished constitutional principles, the idea that government should neither establish religion nor interfere with the free exercise of religious belief.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:15.439
Jefferson and Madison agreed on a lot in regard to religious liberty.
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For example, both opposed religious establishments.
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Both believed conscience was beyond the proper reach of government.
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And both argued that individuals should never be compelled to support a faith they did not believe in.
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Yet, despite their remarkable agreement on policy, they often spoke about religious freedom in profoundly different ways.
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Today, we're examining one of the most, in my opinion, fascinating relationships in American constitutional history.
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That between James Madison and Thomas Jefferson.
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And specifically, how these two architects of religious liberty talked about religious freedom.
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Informing the conversation today is someone we've had in the studio before with us, Dr.
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John Regosta.
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You may remember he is a historian, lawyer, and award-winning author.
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He is a fellow at Virginia Humanities and was previously the interim director of the Robert H.
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Smith International Center for Jefferson Studies at Monticello.
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And he is currently Montpelier's 2026 inaugural James Madison Fellow.
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Welcome back, John.
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It's great to have you in the studio with us again.
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Katie, thank you.
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It's always a great pleasure to be here.
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Now you are an expert on this topic.
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You've spoken to religious freedom before, but today we're taking a different approach.
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And I want to begin with a broad question.
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So we often pair Madison and Jefferson together as, you know, champions of religious liberty.
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But before we talk about their differences, how similar were their views on religious freedom exactly?
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Did they largely agree on these principles?
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What did that look like between them?
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Katie, it's a good question because we do think of Jefferson and Madison almost as a team.
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And when I would teach the issue of religious freedom, I would often say that Jefferson and Madison are close politically.
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On religious freedom, they are very close.
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They are very close.
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There were minor differences.
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So for example, Jefferson at one point said that ministers should not be allowed to be elected to government offices, shouldn't allow a person who's a minister to be a government legislature.
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And Madison sort of said, you know, gee, Tom, that's not really a good idea, and convinces Jefferson that that's really discriminating against religion, which they are opposed to.
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And if you think about that, how important that was, um, Reverend Ralph Warnock, we've had people who are ministers who become legislators.
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But on religious freedom, they are very, very close.
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But as your introduction suggested, they come at it from a somewhat different perspective.
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So if they agreed on so much, why is it worthwhile for us to have this conversation and pay attention to the differences and how they talked about religious liberty?
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What can we read into that and understand from their words?
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Well, I think when you look at why they supported religious liberty and religious freedom and separation of church and state, and then you look at those differences, it becomes very important to our modern understanding of religious freedom and separation of church and state.
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So Jefferson and Madison both have political reasons, they have philosophical reasons, and they have theological reasons.
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A lot of historians don't talk about that, but they have theological reasons why they support religious freedom and separation of church and state.
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But as I said, they come at it in a different way and in ways that are informative.
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Jefferson, it's almost an intellectual exercise.
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And that's important.
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Jefferson's one of America's great thinkers, but he's realized that for the country, we have to have separation of church and state.
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We have to have religious freedom.
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So political freedom.
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Jefferson talks about American religious freedom is for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Muhammadan, the Hindu and the infidel of every denomination.
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And he's saying in America, we're going to have people from all sorts of different ethnicities, all sorts of different religions, different classes.
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We've got to be able to work together, or we're going to have wars over religion, like they have in Europe.
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Again, Jefferson, oceans of human blood.
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Oceans of human blood have been spilled over these religious wars.
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We can't do that in America.
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And we'll come to the theological in a moment.
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Madison feels equally strong about this issue, but comes at it from a different perspective.
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Madison, in one of his earliest letters that we have, 1774, he's writing a good friend from college.
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He's writing William Bradford, and he's so upset because in the next county over, there are four Baptist ministers in jail for preaching without a license, because Virginia is still technically an Anglican colony before the revolution.
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They're violating the law.
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Madison, as opposed to Jefferson's, you know, very intellectual, Madison writes William Bradford about that hell-conceived notion of persecution in this language, this hell-conceived principle of persecution.
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And then he talks about, he asks Bradford to pray for liberty of conscience.
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And what really got me thinking about this, I was doing an op-ed for Religious Freedom Day, Religious Freedom Day when we celebrate the adoption of the Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Establishing Religious Freedom.
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And I've done an op-ed for Religious Freedom Day for almost every year for the past 15, 20 years.
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And this year I was quoting a Madison statement about what happens when government gets involved in religion.
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And what Madison says is it is a perversion of the means of salvation.
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Now I've used that quote before.
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It's a great quote.
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You know, government involvement in religion is a perversion of the means of salvation.
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But I started turning it over and over again in my mind.
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And it occurred to me, I said, you know, Thomas Jefferson would have never said that.
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Just those words.
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He would have never said that government involvement in religion.
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He says it's wrong.
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He says we're going to get oceans of human blood.
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He says it's not going to work for America.
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But it is a perversion of the means of salvation.
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So I went to look, and I used that quote, as I said, many a times, but I started to look, is Madison's language on religious freedom different from Jefferson's?
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And what I started to find was over and over again, and I know you absolutely understand, words matter.
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Words matter.
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And so once I started looking at that different language, it really started dawning on me that yes, they're very, very, very close on religious freedom, but they're looking at it in a somewhat different manner.
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I really get a sense of the passion that both of these men have for this issue.
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And I think that's really reflected in the words.
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I want to pause for a moment and ask you.
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So we've talked on the podcast in previous episodes quite a bit about Madison's upbringing.
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We talk about him attending the College of New Jersey, Princeton, today, and how that experience was really formative for him.
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Now, as you referenced, you know, Virginia Colony at that time, there is kind of the sanctioned Church of Anglican, Anglican colony.
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Most of the wealthy white Anglican men in Virginia attend William and Mary.
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But Madison gets a different kind of educational background that's, I think, a little bit outside of this Anglican rich environment, this more religious freedom he's encountering when he's in school.
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What do we know about Jefferson and Madison and their own personal faith, beliefs, or educational background and how that influenced kind of what we're leading up to talking about today?
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Well, it's important to understand that background.
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I would point out Thomas Jefferson, he's hatched, matched, and dispatched Anglican.
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You know, he's baptized, he's married, and he's buried in the Anglican church.
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He's hatch, matched, and dispatched Anglican.
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But he's not Anglican.
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You know, that's his family tradition.
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That's what he was raised in.
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His parents had him baptized, he obviously had no say in it.
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Madison, by the way, is much the same.
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Madison is technically Anglican, his family is Anglican, uh, because that's the Church of England, that's the established church.
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But both of them end up really moving beyond that family background.
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And they get to it in different ways.
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I mean, again, for Jefferson, it's sort of this intellectual exercise.
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And in his youth, in his 30s and 40s, especially, he's really coming to the conclusion I don't really accept a lot of the fundamentals of Christianity.
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He rejects the divinity of Christ, he rejects the resurrection, he rejects atonement, he rejects biblical miracles.
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Nobody at that time or today would say that's a Christian.
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Madison's a little more complicated.
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And one of the things that I ought to say, um, we really need somebody to do a good book on Madison's religion.
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We really don't know as much as we would like to about Madison's religion.
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Now, part of that is Jefferson says, I don't talk about my religion.
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He's talking about his religion all the time.
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He's writing about his religion.
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Madison doesn't talk much about his religion.
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But as you say, he goes to Princeton.
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Uh John Witherspoon is the president of Princeton, Presbyterian from Scotland.
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And the Presbyterians, it's interesting because the Presbyterian religion is the established religion in Scotland.
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So Witherspoon's not necessarily opposed to establishment, but he does understand the issue of religious persecution because the Presbyterians had been persecuted in England.
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And so Madison, being educated in that kind of a tradition, I think, realizes, gee, this these fights over religious freedom can be violent, they can be disruptive.
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Jefferson talks about oceans of human blood.
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Madison talks about torrents of blood.
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And when he comes back, again, still a young man to Virginia in 1774, and he sees the persecution that's going on, he really takes that to heart.
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In fact, in that letter to Bradford, he says, this is one of the most vexing things I know.
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And for James Madison to say that as the revolution is about to start, he says, this disturbs me more than anything to see people thrown in jail because of their religion.
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So given this context, where these men are both coming to this kind of conclusion on their own about what their own religious beliefs are and how it kind of plays out within the broader society.
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You point to this example with Madison and the Baptist ministers.
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At what point do Madison and Jefferson start sharing these thoughts with each other, you know, coming from these different perspectives?
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Well, people often ask when do Madison and Jefferson meet?
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Because we know they're going to have this wonderful lifelong relationship.
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They actually meet in the fall of 1776.
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Jefferson has just returned from Philadelphia having drafted a small document called the Declaration of Independence.
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Madison is a very junior member of the new, brand new Virginia General Assembly.
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And they both become members of the Committee on Religion, trying to figure out what are we going to do?
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We had this established Anglican church in Virginia, and we're now going to be a new independent state.
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How are we going to deal with this?
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And the Committee on Religion, in which both, this is where Jefferson and Madison really first worked together, is trying to figure that out.
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And I think they very quickly realize that they are very much in line, as it coming different directions, but they very, very much agree that we have to have religious freedom and we have to have separation of church and state.
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Madison, of course, in June of 1776, before Jefferson, he's Jefferson's in Philadelphia, a little busy.
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But Madison takes an important role in drafting Article 16 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which historians often point out is really maybe the first written government declaration of religious freedom as opposed to religious toleration.
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We had a lot of, you know, well, we'll tolerate, we'll put up with those other religions.
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Madison in Article 16 drafts, no, we're going to have religious freedom in America.
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But once again, he's using religious language.
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He talks about Christian forbearance and Christian cooperation in that language.
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Now, he's ultimately going to get away from using Christianity.
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And in fact, he later talks very much about the country cannot choose between religions.
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But again, he's in that very first important public service.
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Madison's using this religious language.
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And then that's what they come back to in 1780s when they're having the debates over the Virginia statute.
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I love that you point this out, what Madison's doing that summer of 1776, being that really critical year.
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You know, obviously we think about Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence.
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But Madison is doing something pretty darn important as well, as you noted.
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And he's a young man.
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At that time, he's about what, mid-20s, when he's attending this Virginia convention, where it's important for him to help this group draft a constitution for the state, if it wants to be a state, kind of breaking away from the monarchy.
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And being so young and having such articulation, I think is very impressive.
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And I'm curious to know more about Madison specifically.
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One thing I think that stands out when reading Madison's writings, as you noted, is his choice of words.
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Madison, as we know, is a very intentional man in terms of his writing.
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How would you characterize Madison's language when he talks about religion and freedom of conscience?
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Are there particular words or phrases that we see repeating in his writing?
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Well, he uh to characterize it, I would say he uses a very reverential tone.
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It's this very reverential, it's this respectful, this religious tone.
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So, and I I hate to use so many quotes, but let's talk about some of the things he says.
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In the Memorial and Remonstrance, critically important document, the Supreme Court regularly quotes the Memorial and Remonstrance as a central document to understand American religious freedom.
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He's complaining about the idea of government taxes supporting religion.
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And he says it is to weaken in those who profess this religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence and the patronage of its author, referring to Jesus.
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He goes on to say that religion talking about Christianity is a precious gift that it ought to be and may be imparted to the whole race of mankind.
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He talks about the dominion of false religions, the light of revelation, as opposed to people who continue in darkness.
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So he's using this religious language, this almost ministerial language, it's obstacles to the victorious progress of truth and unchristian timidity to have government try to deal with religion.
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But and and here's the important but, he still agrees with Jefferson with the idea that we have to have religious freedom and we have to have a strict separation of church and state.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:26.240
And so one of the most fundamental points about all of this, you started out by asking why, you know, do we care about any of this?
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Do we care about this language?
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That today it has become common for people to think or to attack the idea of separation of church and state as if it's anti-religious.
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And it wasn't.
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It wasn't to Jefferson, it wasn't to Madison, it wasn't to the 18th-century evangelicals who supported them, those Baptists who got thrown in jail because we had a state-established church.
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So the idea that Madison is using this very reverential, this very religious language and saying this is why we have to have religious freedom and separation of church and state is, I think, very telling, that it's simply a lie to say that separation of church and state is anti-religious.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.960
And we could talk about the history of that.
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We should come back to what happens in the 19th century with separation of church and state.
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:26.960
But obviously, Madison, when you hear this language, conscience is the most sacred of all property, Madison writes.
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He obviously does not understand that separation of church and state, which he is deeply committed to, is in any way contrary or bad for religion.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:40.480
And you referenced memorial and remonstrance.
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Can you give us some context?
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:42.400
You know, what is that?
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:43.839
Why is Madison writing it?
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How does that fit into the bigger picture?
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:46.400
Aaron Powell Well, thank you, Katie.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:47.359
That's critical.
00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.960
So we have an established church before the revolution.
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We have the Anglican Church as the established church in Virginia.
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Everyone pays taxes to support the Anglican Church.
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Doesn't matter if you're Baptist, Presbyterian, Quaker, you're paying taxes to support the Anglican Church.
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You also have to be married in the Anglican Church.
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.960
The Anglican Church controls orphans and poor relief.
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The Anglican Church is the established church.
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During the revolution, that all gets negotiated.
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So initially we suspend the church tax and then we eliminate the church tax.
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We start to liberalize a little bit marriage that, okay, we'll let Baptists and Presbyterian ministers marry people in their own county, but they can't go outside of their county.
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:45.440
So at the end of the war, we have liberalized to a significant extent, but we still have not eliminated the idea that the Anglican Church was going to be the established Church of Virginia.
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And at the end of the war in 1784, a proposal was made for what is referred to as a general assessment.
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And the idea is this will be fair.
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This will be fair.
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We're going to tax everybody to support religion, but then we'll ask them, Katie, who do you want your money to go to?
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Presbyterian, Baptist, and we'll spread it out.
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And so everybody will get some money.
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Christian, every Christian minister will get some money.
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So that's fair, right?
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:23.039
And Madison and Jefferson and the evangelical Baptists and Presbyterians revolt at that idea and say, no, this is linking church and state.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:27.519
And you have Baptist ministers saying it corrupts both to link church and state.
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One Baptist minister says the unhallowed marriage between church and state must be forever put asunder.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:42.559
And Madison writes this famous document, The Memorial and Remonstrance, and it's this long list, it's a list of 15 paragraphs saying why.
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Each paragraph begins with because.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:49.039
Why do we think this is a very bad idea for government to get involved in religion?
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Because, because, because.
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And Madison lists 15 paragraphs.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:01.519
But over and over again, he's using this very religious language, which people at that time, again, today it's sort of striking.
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.440
Wait a minute, the Baptists supported separation of church and state.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:18.240
And yes, the Baptists and the Presbyterians, especially, those are the two largest non-Anglican denominations in Virginia, they had lived under a system of church-government cooperation.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.640
They understood what that meant.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.119
They understood how dangerous that was.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:33.359
So here you have this very Enlightenment statesman, Jefferson, in this very intellectual exercise saying we have to have religious freedom and separation of church and state.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:39.440
And then we have these evangelical Baptists and Presbyterians saying, we've been through that.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.079
We have to have separation of church and state.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:46.640
And Madison, to some extent, is a little bit of a bridge in that regard.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:54.079
Here's Madison using this very reverential language, this very religious language, saying, yes, we have to have separation of church and state.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.319
And that's the memorial and remonstrance.
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.759
But again, when I went looking for this, he does it over and over.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.160
And over again, and he does it throughout his life.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:17.119
In the 1792 National Gazette, that's the conscience is the most sacred of all property, the detached memoranda, which he writes in 1820, the sacred principle of religious liberty, sacred by giving to Caesar what belongs to God.
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.759
So he's using these biblical stories.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.039
1813, his message to Congress, light of divine truth.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.839
We have to be conscious of the light of divine truth.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:29.839
Jefferson wouldn't have said that.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.880
But here's Madison talking about that.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:44.480
And what really sort of brought this home to me, sort of the home run in understanding this difference, was when the Virginia statute is adopted, and I probably should provide a little more background.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.400
So there's the general assessment proposal.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.480
Madison and the evangelical Presbyterians and Baptists come out opposed to it.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.079
It gets defeated, it gets sunk, and Madison says, aha, this is my chance.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.000
I'm going to introduce Jefferson's statute for establishing religious freedom.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.720
Jefferson's in Paris enjoying fine wine.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.920
Madison picks up the laboring ore and he introduces the statute.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:17.200
And the debates in the statute, it it passes by a large margin, and the statute very clearly is talking about separation of church and state.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:28.160
We find out years later that there was an effort made to introduce an amendment to the Virginia statute that would have specifically referred to Jesus Christ.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:34.640
The statute, Jefferson again, is using this very intellectual, very deistic, the holy author of our creation.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.359
Jefferson doesn't talk about Jesus.
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:39.839
But somebody wanted to introduce, there was an amendment.
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:44.559
Let's introduce Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:55.680
And both Jefferson and Madison tell us about that amendment and tell us that that amendment was defeated and then express why.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.200
But they express it in dramatically different terms.
00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:07.599
Madison talks about it was an experiment made on the reverence entertained for the name and sanctity of the Savior.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:12.559
And this is blasphemy to put Jesus' name in this into this legislative statute.
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:21.440
And he goes on to say better proof of reverence for that holy name would be having a separation of church and state and keeping Jesus out of this.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.839
Jefferson describing exactly the same incident, that's where the quote comes from.
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:32.160
American religious freedom is for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Muhammadan, the Hindu and the infidel of every denomination.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.599
Again, this very intellectual, very academic, very important.
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:39.680
I mean, Jefferson, I don't want to make light of Jefferson's statement.
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:45.119
As I point out, there's not a lot of Hindus in America when Jefferson says that.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:47.599
But he understands America is going to be a melting pot.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:53.599
We're going to have these people from all these different religions, these different ethnicities, these different backgrounds, these different cultures.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.119
That's going to be our strength, e pluribus unum.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.640
And we can't have these religious disputes.
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:10.160
But Madison describing exactly the same problem is using this language, reverence entertained for the sanctity of the Savior.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.200
It's dramatic.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:27.519
And as I said, I think in some ways, in a way that I did not really fully appreciate, when I and I'd worked on Madison and Jefferson and religious freedom for many years, but Madison really stands as a link between these evangelicals and Jefferson.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:48.160
And of course, on the Constitution, John Leland, famous Baptist minister, we're sitting in Orange, Virginia, just five, six miles north of town, the Leland Baptist Park, where John Leland, the Baptist minister, meets James Madison to say, look, if you want us to support the new Constitution, keep in mind it was dicey.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.880
We weren't sure that the Constitution was going to be ratified.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.400
It was a tough debate.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:59.279
And they say we've got to be promised, we've got to be confident that we're going to get religious freedom.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.519
And Madison and John Leland, um, the records aren't very good.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.440
Some people are a little dismissive.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:07.519
I think it's pretty clear they met.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:13.119
Madison says, I will defend religious freedom, I will defend separation of church and state.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:22.640
And John Leland, again, one of the most famous Baptist ministers in the 18th century, is absolutely committed to a strict separation of church and state.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:33.279
So it sounds like Madison being very reverential in his writing versus Jefferson, his words are more of an intellectual kind of approach.
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:40.640
Is it fair to say that that's kind of the big difference when you put Madison and Jefferson side by side and looking at how they're talking about religious freedom?
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.000
I think so, Katie.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:46.319
I mean, as I said, substantively, they are very, very close.
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:56.400
Again, there is sometimes you'll see modern jurists who are trying to attack separation of church and state will say, Madison didn't really believe in separation of church and state, because they they take some of this language.
00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.640
Madison is absolutely committed to a separation of church and state.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:06.480
He's absolutely committed, as is Jefferson, to broad religious freedom and free exercise.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.640
But that language is different.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:12.079
They're coming at it from these different perspectives.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.559
So, you know, give you an example, they say, well, Madison's not committed to a separation of church and state.
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:25.519
Jefferson, in the early republic, it was not uncommon in the colonial era to have a government declare, uh, do a proclamation.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:31.519
We're going to have a day of fasting and prayer, either in celebration, either in because we need help.
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:32.880
This is a crisis.
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.480
And that happened.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.599
Continental Congress would request proclamations.
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:42.240
George Washington issued proclamations, John Adams issued proclamations.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:43.599
Jefferson refuses.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:48.559
Jefferson says it's a violation of the First Amendment for the government to be telling people to pray.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:50.640
Madison does it.
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:57.279
During the War of 1812, Congress requests, Congress, uh joint resolution of Congress says, Mr.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.680
President, we want you to issue a prayer proclamation.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:01.279
Madison does it.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:04.960
Madison later concludes that was a mistake.
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.039
It's unconstitutional.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.039
So there's interesting things there.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.759
Jefferson says, I'm not going to do it because he's just intellectually.
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:13.680
Jefferson is hardcore.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.599
He is just set in his ways.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.559
Madison is trying to be a little bit more of a practical politician.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:21.599
He says, Well, I guess, I mean, you know, I guess we have to do this.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.359
Uh, but then he later says it was a mistake.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:24.480
I shouldn't have done it.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:33.279
But he also says, but I was always very, very clear when I did issue these proclamations to make clear it was voluntary.
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.359
The government cannot tell you to pray.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:36.880
That is wrong.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:46.880
And to never make it about Christianity, to always use very generic language because all religions are equal before our government.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:52.400
You know, and he's coming to that conclusion from this reverential perspective.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.839
So, for example, you know, is it separation of church and state?
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:03.519
In one of those prayer proclamations, Madison talks about the unhallowed connection with the powers of the world.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:05.920
Religion's unhallowed connection.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:16.960
Again, religious language, unhallowed connection with the powers of the world, it corrupts religion into an instrument or a usurper of the policy of the state.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:24.400
So reverential, religious, but absolutely committed to separation of church and state.
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:37.920
Given this, do these different rhetorical approaches reflect deeper differences and how they understood rights, freedom of conscience, and the role of government itself?
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:43.279
That's uh you know, it's always difficult to get into these gentlemen's minds.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:45.759
Um I don't think so.
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:55.759
I mean, Madison, um for example, uh Madison talks about uh he issues several presidential vetoes, which vetoes were not common at that time.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:58.240
It was always thought vetoes were going to be very uncommon.
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:06.319
And Madison issues several relating to religion, and one was related to a Baptist church in Mississippi.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:19.920
And what had happened was the surveyor, when they were surveying the land, there was government land and there was private land, and the private land was bought by a Baptist church, and the Baptist church built their meeting house, they built their church on this property.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.000
Well, the surveyor had made a mistake.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:28.720
And so they came back years later, and the surveyor says, no, wait a minute, the government property runs right through the middle of the Baptist church.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:32.160
And so, you know, we're gonna have to deal with this.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.519
And there was a law passed in Congress to basically give the Baptist church about five acres.
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.759
Just this was a mistake, we're not gonna make you tear down your church.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:43.519
You know, we heard this five acres.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.759
Madison vetoes that.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:53.839
And Madison says, look, um, if they want to buy, you know, we we'll treat a religion just like anybody else.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.480
If they want to buy the five acres, that's fine.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.039
You know, we don't want them to have to tear down their church.
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:04.079
But the government shouldn't be giving land to a church.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:10.880
So again, committed to separation of church and state, in some ways, maybe a little more of a practical politician than Jefferson.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.720
Yeah, I mean, you know, they're very close politically, but they are different people.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:17.119
Jefferson is a little bit more intellectual.
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:20.000
Madison can be more practical in some ways.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:26.400
But, you know, that incident, Jefferson certainly would have agreed with the result, but I think Jefferson probably would have been a little more dismissive.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.880
He would have just said, no, you can't have, we're not gonna give a Baptist church land.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:39.039
Um, and then the other veto that Madison makes, there was a law to incorporate the Episcopal Church in the District of Columbia.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:43.200
And they had fought about this question of should churches be incorporated?
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.200
This had been a big issue in Virginia.
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:50.160
And here's this church being incorporated in the District of Columbia.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:53.839
And the law comes to Madison's desk and he vetoes it.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:09.519
But he says, you know, the problem is that if you read this law, the law specifies how the Episcopal Church in Washington is going to run and who gets to vote, and also it gives them authority over poor relief.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:23.119
And he says, you know, I don't have any problem with a corporation, with a church can be incorporated just like anybody else to protect its land, to, you know, deal with fraud, to deal with commercial transactions.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:29.440
But the government should not be telling anybody how their church is going to be run.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.960
And so he vetoes it.
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.559
Again, Jefferson absolutely would have agreed with that.
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:40.960
Um so on church and state, is it they Jefferson and Madison are different people, we've got to keep that in mind.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:55.279
But I think on church and state, they almost always, I mentioned the one example up front about whether a minister could be a member of the legislature, but they almost always come to exactly the same conclusion, just from a little bit of a different perspective.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:56.799
UVA is another example.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.839
I mean, Jefferson, of course, is the first head of UVA.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:09.279
They don't call him president, and Madison's the second, and they insist that UVA not be a church school, because every other college in the country was a church school.
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.759
And Madison absolutely supports that.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:21.519
To wrap up today's conversation, John, can you tell us whether or not we're still debating these competing understandings of religious liberty today?
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:34.880
And what can modern Americans learn by paying attention not to just what Madison and Jefferson believed, but also the language they used to describe religious freedom.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:36.720
How is that still relevant?
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.759
We're absolutely still having these debates.
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:47.279
And in fact, it's somewhat astounding the extent to which they had dealt with a lot of the issues that we're still grappling with.
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:49.519
So the issue of religious exemptions.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:54.960
You know, if there's a law and it violates your religion, do you get an exemption from that law?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:02.000
Say a law says that you're not allowed to discriminate based on race or sexual orientation, but you make wedding cakes.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.680
And you say, gee, I don't want to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.239
Madison and Jefferson talk about that.
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:15.440
The Virginia statute makes it clear that no, if the law is a neutral law, then you don't get an exemption.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:23.119
You have to abide by the law just like anyone else, because we're not going to have government engaged in picking and choosing who gets these exemptions.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.519
An issue that's becoming very active.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.159
What about officials wanting to be religious?
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:35.679
So, okay, we're going to have separation from church and state, but what if you are the Secretary of Defense, let's say, and you're a religious person?
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:46.079
Well, Madison talks about that, and he says, you can be as religious as you want in their individual capacity, as distinct from their official station.
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:58.880
They, government officials, might unite in recommendations of any sort, whatever, in the same manner as any other individual might do, but then their recommendation ought to express the true character from which they emanate.
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:04.960
So government official can pray, they can pray publicly, they can't pray officially.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.199
Like you've heard me use that phrase before.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.480
They can pray publicly, they can't pray officially.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.320
Madison talks about that.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:26.719
Madison talks about the issue of coercion, how much government influence, uh, because we do have lawyers refer to as ceremonial deism, God save this honorable court, you know, in the Declaration of Independence, one nation under God.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:34.159
Madison and Jefferson say we should not have even psychological coercion.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:43.840
The government should not be picking what religions are good religions and what religions are bad religions, or saying that this religion uh should be supported.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.840
So, yes, those ideas are, I think, very much alive.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:59.039
Um, and I think one of the most important things to your final point, who, you know, what can we learn from all of this is I referred to earlier, this was not anti-religious.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.960
And in fact, I mentioned 19th century, I talk about the 19th century.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:09.119
One of the things that happens that's remarkable is once we have separation of church and state in America, what happens?
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.119
Well, we have the second great awakening.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:12.639
Religion explodes.
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:19.280
This is when we get Jehovah's Witnesses, this is when we get Latter-day Saints, this is when we get Onightans, this is when we get the Church of Christ.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:22.880
Because we now have a free market for religion, we're going to keep government out.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:35.760
And even people like Lyman Beecher, famous Presbyterian minister of the 19th century, had absolutely opposed separation of church and state, said Jefferson's wrong, Madison's wrong, that's bad, religion needs government support.
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:43.360
After it happens and government gets out, we we don't have an end in Massachusetts due government establishment till 1833.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:48.480
Lyman Beecher comes back later and says, you know, it's the best thing that ever happened to religion.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:55.599
Once we get government out and we have to rely on our own resources, we have to rely on God, religion flourishes.
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.679
Why is it that today we still have established religions all over Europe?
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:02.000
Church of England's still the established religion.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.360
We still have Catholicism in Italy, we still have Catholicism and Protestantism in different parts in Germany.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:08.639
Nobody goes to church.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.239
I've been to church in England.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.079
Nobody goes to church.
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:20.079
America is still a very heavily religious country, but partially because of separation of church and state.
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:26.239
And separation of church and state is one of the critical reasons why religion is so vibrant in America.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:29.599
And that's what Lyman Beecher came to understand.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:33.119
That's what the evangelicals understood in the 18th century.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:36.159
The evangelicals come to understand in the 19th century.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:41.280
And if we lose that, we're making a big mistake in the 21st century.
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.000
But, you know, as I said, this sort of surprised me.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.159
I love having an opportunity to talk about it.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:54.159
I hope I have an opportunity to go talk with groups about this because I think they would be surprised to hear this language from Madison over and over again.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:05.440
It's language that a religious person would absolutely embrace and then to understand he's talking about separation of church and state is such an important message.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.079
Thank you so much for sharing with us today.
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:17.760
It's really enlightening to hear about the differences between how Madison and Jefferson are approaching the idea of freedom of religion.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.920
And these examples that you provided from, you know, the veto is a great one.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:23.840
They are putting this into practice.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:29.199
We're seeing how it's playing out through their leadership in the political realm.
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:37.840
And the point you make, you know, the past really can provide guidance in the present is something that is so important for all of us to remember.
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.199
So thank you very much, Dr.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:41.920
John Ragusta, for being here in the studio with us today.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.519
Katie, it's always a pleasure.
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:44.880
Thanks so much for having me.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:47.119
And thank you for our listeners.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.360
We appreciate you tuning in, and please share the show with your family and friends.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:56.239
Tune in again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.
