Why Should Christians Care for Immigrants? with Bri Stensrud

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You are listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast, and I'm
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here with my recently acquired just this past summer friend
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at Brie Stensrud. Brie is an author, human dignity advocate
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and the director of Women of Welcome. Her passion is
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to equip the church to engage more consistently and tangibly
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in holistic human dignity issues. Bree holds a Masters of
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Biblical and Theological Studies from Dallas Theological Seminary.
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She serves on the Board of Directors for.
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The National Association of Evangelicals, and she's authored two books,
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Start with Welcome, The Journey Toward a Confident and Compassionate
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Immigration Conversation, and a children's book, The Biggest Best Light,
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Shining God's Light in the world around You. Thank you
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so much for joining me, Brie.
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Oh, I'm so happy to be with you. Thanks for
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having me.
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Folks listening to us cannot see you right now, and
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so they don't know that you are wearing a baseball
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cap which says choosing proximity. And I'm just curious. I
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can imagine what that might be, what that might mean
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to you, But I'm kind.
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Of curious what that does mean to you, oh man, Well,
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when we do that, things get personal, and proximity is
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incredibly powerful for any human being, regardless of your religious
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or political affiliation. Proximity to people makes things really personal
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and you start to learn things that you never knew before,
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never thought possible. You hear stories, you see things you
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can't unsee. And so in my line of work, getting
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people close to others that they think are very different
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than them is important. It's essential to the work because
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we want to get people out of these comfortable and
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curated spaces, which is where a lot of the American
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church is is they're in comfortable and curated spaces that
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distance themselves from things that are hard, hurtful, and different.
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And so I have this belief that our comfort is
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crippling us, and so we have to choose something different.
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We have to we have to choose proximity. And so
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this is this is a hat that we wear on
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our immersion trips that we take our community on. We
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might talk about that a little bit later, but everyone's
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given a choosing proximity ball cap because that's what they're doing.
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That's so interesting.
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I was chatting with a friend recently who's studying at
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Harvard Law School, and she was recounting that in one
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of her classes, a fellow classmate had said something along
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the lines of, you know, she'd referred to Christians being
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raised in small towns in America who never had their
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ideas challenged about anything. And she sort of slightly raised
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a hand in this context and said, you know, I'm
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a Christian, i was raised in a small town in America,
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and I've actually had my ideas challenged quite a bit
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because I've spent a bunch of time with people who
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have very different background than I do. And she said,
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I've actually found not infrequently that people who have only
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kind of been born and raised and lived in various
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sort of progressive spaces also never had their ideas challenged.
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And lib yes, regactually of where we come from kind
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of culturally, the likelihood is we may well not have
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been exposed to people who think very differently from us,
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depending what our background. Isn't that that you know that
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that question kind of flows both both ways.
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It totally goes both ways, because when you actually get
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in proximity to people, you realize that people that you
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are now getting in close proximity to have not necessarily
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had proximity to you either. Yeah, and so it's but
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I'm speaking from I'm a conservative evangelical so when I
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talk about these things, I'm usually talking about it from
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that perspective of I can see my community being crippled
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by the level of comfort and convenience that they chase
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after so very often right now in this present day.
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So you and I just chatting before we went on
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on air.
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I don't know if on air is the right term
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when we pre recorded this, but I ledless pretend that
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it does.
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It sounds good.
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We were telling about the fact that we were actually
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raised in very.
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Different kind of environments.
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So broadly speaking, from what you've shared with me, you
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were raised in a kind of culturally Christian environment where
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your Christian beliefs sort of in many ways fitting quite well,
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and where many people around you would have shared a
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whole lot of kind of political convictions, some sort of
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springing out of that, some springing from some other places.
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I was raised in the UK, in London, with the
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large majority of my friends and a lot of my
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family members kind of having very different beliefs than me,
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and the way that that has then kind of shaped
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how how I've thought and how I've even I guess
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the relational costs that have come to me for holding
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certain positions have been sort of similar to yours, but
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in opposite in opposite directions.
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Yeah.
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So, as one example, I have been very strongly pro
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life for as long as I can remember. I mean
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as a teenager, I was involved in sort of some
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pro life campaigning, and it's something that's sort of very
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clear to my heart and always always has been, and
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for many of my friends from brad School, from you know,
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even where I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the fact that
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I believe that life begins at conception and that abortion
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is proundly morally wrong is deeply kind of morally troubling
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to them, and so holding that position is really kind
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of puts me at odds with many in my community,
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just in terms of the people I'm in proximity with.
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And when we met that last summer, you were sharing
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that actually for you, you've had a little bit of
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a different journey there where the people around you in
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terms of proximity were very much on board with being
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pro life when it came to the unborn, but then
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had real questions and concerns when you started applying that
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to questions of care for refugees and immigrants, I'd love
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for you to just like share a bit more about
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that experience of not, I guess, not shifting your ground,
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but actually kind of extending the reach of your pro
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life convictions.
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I started out in the traditional pro life movement, the
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traditional pro life movement, and so that what I mean
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by that is I was working at Folks on a
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Family that is a major, huge evangelical institution here in
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the US, and I was the director of Sacty of
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Human Life. So I was overseeing pregnancy resource centers and
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medical clinics all around the country, knowing what they were
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doing and supplying them resources, helping them get ultrasounds and
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high risk abortion communities. I was traveling around the country
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advocating for kids who were in foster care and trying
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to recruit families for those kids who had no parental
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rights attached to them. And so I went into that space.
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I adopted one of my children in my family and myself,
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and so I was very much operating that space professionally
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and personally. And then I had a mentor who really
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challenged me to say all right, I know, your pro
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life for the preborn, for the orphan, for those who
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are being trafficked. Where are you in maybe continuing that
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ethic in a consistent way across the whole spectrum of
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life from womb to tomb. And I said, well, I mean,
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I'm for all people.
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Like what do you mean by that, you know?
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And she was like, what I mean is do you
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want to move beyond a dictionary definition of what it
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means to be pro life and move really into a
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Biblical definition of a consistent Christian ethic about each and
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every person made in the image of God. And so
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when I entered into the immigration space, I was invited
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on a trip to cross the border to go into Wahaca, Mexico,
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southern Mexico to meet with migrants. And I thought, I
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was like going on this immigration journey, this refugee resettlement
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migration journey, And everywhere I went on this immersion trip,
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my pro life convictions just were everywhere. It was like
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I was meeting child mothers like age eleven and thirteen
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who had become mothers because they were victims of violence
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in their home country and that's why they were migrating.
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They had no health care, and there was so much
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shame and stigma attached to that. And they were eleven
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and thirteen. And then I met with mothers who were
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holding babies and toddlers and children and traveling themselves to
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get out of corruption and violence and talking about how
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they didn't have healthcare and talking about how they just
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wanted their babies to survive and they wanted their children
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to be born in a safe place. I mean, everywhere
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I went was like women and children talking about flourishing
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of during pregnancy and post pregnancy. And I was like, Lord,
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I'm here to learn about immigration. What is all of
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this pro life stuff? And really, what you start to
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learn when you choose proximity in different human dignity spaces
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is that the same things that anchor you in your
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preborn convictions biblically about the dignity and sanctity of every
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human life, all of those verses that give you such
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passion for the preborn are the same exact verses that
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would anchor you in every other human dignity area. So
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this isn't a redefinition of what it means to be
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pro life. It's actually more of a revival of what
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Scripture says that Christians are called to So if we
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really are following Christ and we're reading the Bible holistically,
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we're very hard pressed to find scriptural justification for prioritizing
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one vulnerable population over another. And we can talk about
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that later. But I had a lot of people kind
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of give me the side eye and also just say,
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wait a minute, where are you going. I don't I'm
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not tracking with you, and it feels like you're on
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some kind of progressive, slippery slope that's just really unorthodox,
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that's really theological squishy, theologically swishy, and I'm just like, no, actually,
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that's kind of what brought me. That's the very thing
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that brought me into this space, So stick with me.
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I mean, I'm not a bleeding heart here, but I
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am dedicated to biblical consistency in my life. And hopefully
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you're interested in that too. Like that this peaks more
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curiosity in you than it does a negative reaction towards me.
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You know.
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Yeah, that's how I kind of got into it. I
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got invited into proximity from a mentor who wanted me
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to get closer to the scriptures holistically, and then I
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also got invited to get in closer proximity to people,
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which definitely changed everything.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, My guess is there'll be some people listening to
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us now who for them, the idea of being pro
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life is actually like offensive and dangerous in their minds,
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that it's sort of anti women. Yes, I mean even
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the example that you gave of the child mothers who
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you encountered as they were migrating, it triggers in a
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lot of people's minds like, well, how can you possibly
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be dogmatic about life beginning at conception and like imposing
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that on other people when we know there are kids
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who get raped and end up pregnant like that, the
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horrifying stories. What would you say to someone who was
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kind of coming from that perspective of really being concerned
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about pro life rhetoric or like activism as being ultimately
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anti women.
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What I would say is, Man, I want to sit
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down and talk with you for hours, And it's not
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because I want you to hear what I have to say.
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It's because I actually really want to listen to what
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you're seeing and what you're hearing and what concerns you most.
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Because I guarantee you we are concerned about so many
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of the same things. I am so very concerned about
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how we handle an eleven year old who has been
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raped and if her her body can handle a pregnancy,
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if if she should go through an abortion. I mean,
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do we know what we're while something has it's hard
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for me to talk about without getting weepy, but like
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what that child has gone through, And then people would say, well,
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the worst thing we could do is make her carry
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that criminal's child to life, you know, and go through
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that pregnancy. And I guess what I would say is,
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have you ever entertained the idea that maybe the worst
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thing we could do is inflict a really violent procedure?
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And I'm not saying that like that. I'm trying to
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be dramatic, Like if you watch what an abortion procedure
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is medically with an abortion doctor, it is a violent
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practice of ripping a life apart in order to be
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able to expel that life, and doing so in ways
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that are poisoning that life. And I mean, we don't
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need to get into all of that, because I feel
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like there's lots of questions that come with that, like
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the question that we both want to answers, what is
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the most compassionate response to take care of that child,
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and we might disagree that that child should have to
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become a parent at that time or not. I mean,
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I think they're but what we both care about is
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what happens to that child now, and I think we
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could probably have some really honest conversations about Okay, health
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and life stability of the mother versus health and life
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stability of a preborn child, and what is less traumatic
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for her to go through in that sense. You know,
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I after roe Vwade like I had, and I'll just
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be very serious, like and transparent. When roe V Wade
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was overturned, I was like elated, and then I was
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deeply afraid. And I wasn't afraid because I was like,
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oh man, now all this, all these pro life legislations
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are going to happen. I was like very happy about
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that because I was like, this will save lives. And
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yet I knew that in the rush to do some
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of that pro life legislation, because we didn't have the
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pro life movement has not been an advocate for traditionally
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an advocate for post birth support systems in this country,
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like paid family leave and health care and affordable living
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and wages, and you know, some of the very policies
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that support life after birth are the first things on
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our legislative chopping block for conservatives, Like, I was like,
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we are not ready. I don't feel like we're ready
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to handle the influx of what is needed to actually
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have a life flourge post birth. Now, to me, that
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doesn't take away the fact that I'm like, life, lives
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will be saved. But then you have people who are
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on the other side of this issue who are per
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choice and will say lives are actually being taken because
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of poor legislation and doctors not being able to translate,
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you know, medical laws and all of these things they
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don't want to get sued, and people are dying in
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parking lots and all these So you get into all
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of this kind of stuff and you're like, man, yeah,
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women's healthcare in this country is disastrous, and we absolutely
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absolutely have to get better about this, and we cannot
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discount the testimonies and accounts of women who are not
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getting the health care that they need because doctors are
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afraid to do the kind of health care that's needed.
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So I just would say, come sit with me, because
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I bet you we have a lot that we're kind
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of ticked about together. And then also I would say,
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I'm not going to compromise what I believe about life
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being at conception and that life is intended by our
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creator for all of the complic caid stuff that happens afterwards,
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because that's not honoring the dignity and sanctive human life
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in the womb. But it's also you can't pick one
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or the other. It's like, well we you know. Sometimes
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the other argument is, well, we have to have all
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these things set in place in order for our life
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to really be pro life. And I'm like, it's got
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to be a both. It has to be a both,
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and because you're not honoring life if you take the life,
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but you're not honoring life if you don't provide what
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life needs to actually live, you know. So to me,
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I'm like, we probably have way more in common than
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you think, but these things are difficult and they have
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to be handled with sober and sober mindset and conversation
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and charitable conversation, because at the end of the day,
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what a pro choice person or pro life person have
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in common is they want good women's health care and
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they want women to flourish and be successful. Man, can
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we start there? Instead of pointing fingers and saying you're
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the enemy and you have no clues, like I guarantee
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or all those women who work in pregnancy resource centers
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and medical clinics know what they're asking about there because
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they're meeting with those women, you know. And so that's
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what I would say. I'd say, come sit with me.
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We'd probably be ticked about a lot of things together,
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and then we could actually maybe do some things together.
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Yeah.
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I remember when I was a teenager and the first
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time I was involved in a sort of pro life demonstration,
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and it was it was a silent demonstration, and it
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was actually about the destruction of a bunch of members
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that was about to kind of happen in the UK because.
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Of a sudden year passing.
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And I remember sort of standing there and on the
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other side of the line, as it were, you know,
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we were standing in silence. On the other side were
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people who were chanting at us, pro life, that's a lie,
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you don't care if women die. And I remember standing
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there thinking that couldn't be further from what I believe.
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Of course, of course I.
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Care that women die. And it's precisely as you were
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saying it springs from the same place in terms of
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my christianvictions that I care about especially vulnerable women, and
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that I care about unborn babies like that, that's actually
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coming from the same source.
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Right, And women's rights start in the womb, you know,
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that's what we believe. We believe women's rights start in
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the womb, right, So I absolutely fundamentally that's why I'm
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in this work care about women.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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For folks who are maybe listening to us who are
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coming from the other side, I mean, I think often
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these things that are made into two different sides politically
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when they may actually kind of have a big reshuffle
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if we actually thought sort of holistically from the scriptures up.
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But that there may be some who are listening to
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us who think, you know what, I'm so completely on
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board with everything you've said that's been in favor of
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care for the unborn, and I deeply lament the millions
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of babies who are killed every year. And this is
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you know, this is top of my agenda when I'm
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thinking in political terms or in activism terms. But when
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you start to talk to me, like when I'm hearing
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you talk about caring for immigrants, you're sounding to me
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like you're actually on the other side of this of
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this equation, and that you're wanting to Yeah, I mean,
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I guess having similar concerns to some of the friends
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that you mentioned who thought like you're on some sort
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of slippery slope toward a liberal agenda or a leftist
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sort of views of these questions. What would you say
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to someone who was kind of coming from that side.
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Sure, I mean, you're talking about so many people in
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my community who had these questions. When I first started
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this journey, it was just high skepticism, right, And I
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just go back to if we truly are pro life
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people and we care about the dignity and sanctity of
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every human life, we have to be consistent in order
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for people to actually believe us. And so I remember
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when I first started speaking out about immigrants and refugees,
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and I was speaking at this conference and an unbeliever
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came up to me afterwards, and I was talking about
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how I felt like caring about immigrants and refugees was
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a pro life issue because it's a life and death issue,
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and because I care about the dignity and sanctity of
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every human life. This person came up to me and said,
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I don't understand your Christians. I really don't. You guys
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will advocate for the heartbeat of the child in the womb,
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but you will not advocate for the child the heartbeat
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of the child at the border. Can you explain that
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to me? And I didn't have a good answer for him.
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You know, I said, I feel like my community has
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a lot of blind spots, and they've been told that
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their compassion, which is God given, is political instead of prophetic,
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and that has changed the trajectory of what we feel
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like is in scope for us to care about, and
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what is controversial and what is not and what I
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want to challenge people, and what I challenge our women
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of Welcome community, which is a community of Christian women
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who want to enter into the space of immigrants and
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refugees from a biblical perspective instead of a politically partisan perspective.
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As I say, your compassion is not meant to be
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political and it's not supposed to be unlimited supply either.
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You know, Jesus was wrung out. You just see him
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being so weary that he's got to take time away,
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and when he sees the crowds continuing to come, the
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first thing you know his disciples do is we got
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to get away. We got to get you fed, We
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got to get and Jesus has compassion on them and
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he says, let them come. They are weary in need.
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Of a shepherd.
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And I guess what I would say is if someone
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is telling you that your compassion is political, they're not
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speaking and thinking about people and human beings from a
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kingdom mindset. So much of our rhetoric about who is
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acceptable to care about and invest in and get close
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to all has to do with things that we're afraid
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of and things that might shift power or shift perspective.
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And as Christian, we're constantly supposed to be growing and
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renewing our mind in the scriptures and getting and doing
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the work of Jesus, which is being the hands and
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feet of Jesus to people as he did. And that
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is what That proximity and that conviction is what is,
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and that reading of scripture is what is renewing our mind.
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It's not because I've adopted some kind of new agenda.
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It's because I actually am trying to live in this
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world prophetically because of the compassion that God has given me.
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So I don't want to look at people as a
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political issue. I want to look at people as image
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bearers of the Creator. And when I start doing that,
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I'm thinking from a kingdom mindset. So so much of
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what we're told is like, all right, so this needs
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to line up on this platform, and this needs to
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line up here, and that is like all earthly kind
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of empire ways of thinking, like what are we building,
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what kind of culture, what kind of country do we want,
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and how do we want it to fit into kind
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of like our liver of conservatism in this world. And
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I feel like the scriptures keep saying Jesus keeps saying
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to his disciples because they were like, when are we
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going to take over the Roman Empire? When are we
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going to re establish our rule and our reign? Like
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we're following you because you're about to take over and
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you have power, And Jesus says, please stop worrying about that.
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I'm not in it for a political take. Oh, I'm
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here to seek and save the lost. So could you
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please take off that empire mindset and put on the
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kingdom mindset and go be a neighbor. Well, who is
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my neighbor? And then he tells the story of the
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good Samaritan who you know, all of you know Israel people.
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Israel like had all of these decades and generations of
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hate towards Samaritans, and Jesus makes Samaritans the hero and
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not his own chosen people. And so it's like Jesus
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is constantly telling us, please don't get wrapped up in
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the political hooplaw that has no eternal value. Please put
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on the kingdom mindset of that people are made in
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My image and have something to contribute in this world
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that is different and unique than the next person. So
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me entering into this space, and when you start having
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compassion in this space where people, it does not mean
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that you are now taking on and adopting extreme liberal
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policies of open borders and unconditional welfare and you're starting
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to progressively read the scriptures. I have not compromised on
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any of my convictions. And I've never even heard a progressive.
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And I've been in a lot of rooms. I've talked
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with the Trump administration, I've talked with my administration. I've
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been in a lot of rooms where I'm the only evangelical.
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I have never once, not once heard anybody even whisper
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the mention of the solution and the most compassionate thing
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we could do about immigration is to have open borders.
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It's just not realistic. It's like the booky man that
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never exists. I'm like always looking for it. I'm like
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someone has co opted me to be in this space
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because they want me to have these extreme liberal policies
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and kind of like really kind of that into conservatism
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and get people to feel prey on people's compassion that
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this is the most it's not even a viable option
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post nine eleven, you know, so nobody thinks that. So
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you get again, this goes back to the proximity. You
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get into these into proximity with people who are very
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different than you, and you realize you do have things
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that are different. You don't agree on everything, but these
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these things that you thought about them are not actually
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always true.
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One of the things that I love, actually when I
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travel around a fair bit speaking at churches and different
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places and comforences and whatnot. And I was just earlier
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this week in Cincinnati speaking at a church, and one
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of the things that I always notice is that as
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I get to know people within a church, you know,
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as I just kind of meet a whole bunch of people.
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In any church community.
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Almost always at least one person and usually two or
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three people will introduce me to or mention their adopted
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children or the children that they're fostering. And it's just
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interesting as I'm hearing you talk some of the ways
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in which I think folks, perhaps especially in the US
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political climate, who are deeply pro life, aren't necessarily thinking
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kind of holistically in terms of policies that would support that.
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I think.
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I think that's often true. I think at the same time,
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I often hear from kind of progressive folks that are
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you Christians? You only care about kids before they're born
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and then after when it comes to fostering and adopting, like,
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where are you? And it seems to me, both anecdotally
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and sort of statistically, the answer is Christians are the
488
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:33.960
first in life like when it comes to adopting and
489
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.880
fostering kids who don't have parents to care for them,
490
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:40.240
Christians are absolutely the first in line. Now, are we
491
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.079
doing that as much as we could and should surely not,
492
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:48.359
but that there is, you know, massive swell among among
493
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:51.880
Christians to be to be caring for the kids who've
494
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.440
been you know, either lost their parents to death or
495
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.720
been abandoned, or just have parents you who aren't able
496
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:56.960
to care.
497
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:57.920
So I'd love to hear more.
498
00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.799
I know that's been part of your story, and I'd
499
00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:02.240
love to just kind of hear more of your thoughts
500
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.480
on that, like the ways in which we're seeing some
501
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:09.559
of that practical care expressing itself in personal terms, even
502
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:12.319
when maybe some of the kind of policy terms getting
503
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:16.000
complicated by political affiliations.
504
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.160
Yeah, I mean, I think I think the best thing
505
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.559
you can do is really be honest about what the
506
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:26.440
true landscape is of the needs of people. If we're
507
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:29.240
talking about modern day orphans, if we're talking about kids
508
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:31.799
who need forever homes. I mean, if you look at
509
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:35.519
the landscape of America, you know, our foster care system
510
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.920
is bursting at the themes. And while I believe the
511
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.359
church has in Christians in general are have a they
512
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.480
show up in higher numbers. I mean, you look across
513
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.759
the board. This is why the government still invests in
514
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:51.160
and enlist the faith community. Because people are Christians have
515
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.359
A you know, they're showing up in higher droves than
516
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.200
the rest of the general population. Right to show up
517
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:00.480
for orphans. I mean, the reality is we kind of
518
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.240
go back to what's comfortable for us. So a lot
519
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:06.799
of us, you know, exist in these these churches and
520
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.720
these echo chambers and these curated communities of friends and
521
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:13.319
whatnot that are very much like us and talk like
522
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.839
us and think like us. And so then we all
523
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.160
start patting each other on the back and we become
524
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.400
everybody as yes men. You know, meanwhile, you know you've
525
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:27.119
got still so much need out there that we're not necessary.
526
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.279
We've become kind of out of practice. You have, on
527
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.359
one hand, you have Christians, who I think are disproportionately
528
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.640
higher in adopting kids. But then you also know the reality,
529
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:39.519
so that can be true. It can also be true
530
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.119
that there are three hundred thousand Christian churches in the US,
531
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:44.920
and there are four hundred thousand kids in foster care,
532
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.480
one hundred thousand of which don't have parental rights attached
533
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.920
to them and are not working through you a reunification
534
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.720
plan and need a forever home. And so you say,
535
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.000
all right, well we have three hundred thousand churches and
536
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.200
we have one hundred thousand waiting kids. One family from
537
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:03.119
every third church could eliminate that backlog of kids waiting
538
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:07.279
for families and why is that? Why is that still
539
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:09.519
a number? That number has been around for at least
540
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:12.720
a decade, and so why is that still Why are
541
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.319
their kids still waiting? So it's like, yes, Christians are
542
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.680
doing the work, but not enough Christians are doing the work.
543
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.680
And I feel like we've become so out of practice
544
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:25.680
with long suffering with people and entering into hard spaces
545
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:30.000
because it will be inconvenient to do so. So when
546
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.880
you start getting into these issues of proximity and closer
547
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:35.920
with people, you start to realize that pro life issues
548
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:40.119
are not like linear, they're actually a web because when
549
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:42.279
you get into the preborn space and you're like, all right,
550
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.279
so if women carry de term and they choose to parent,
551
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:47.079
but they don't have all of the things that they
552
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.160
need around them as far as like housing, relational, educational,
553
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:55.160
you know, professional support and work, those those very children
554
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.519
that we have just saved from abortion become prey to
555
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:00.720
the vulnerability of going into foster care. Okay, so then
556
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:02.799
you're in foster care. Okay, So then what happens when
557
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.839
Christians don't show up and enter into the foster care space. Well,
558
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.000
we know that there's twenty thousand kids who enter out
559
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.759
of foster care every single year, and where do they go. Well,
560
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:12.720
there's a pipeline for these kids. They end up in
561
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:17.519
homeless they have negative encounters and repeated stays in prisons
562
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:22.359
and in our judicial system of that becomes like a
563
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.319
second home. It's like create an offense, you have a
564
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.839
place to stay, you have a meal. They handle mental
565
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.839
health issues all by themselves. They become very vulnerable to
566
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.240
human trafficking. And so it's like, Okay, now I got
567
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:35.079
to care about like prison ministry, I got to care
568
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:39.680
about human trafficking, homelessness, mental health care. Okay, so if
569
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:41.200
these kids, if I'm not going to show up for
570
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.599
these kids then and they become a part of any
571
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.880
of these human dignity areas and vulnerable populations, then my
572
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.440
pro life conviction starts to carry me into these things.
573
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:51.960
And man, what a web that is, right, Because then
574
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.279
you get if you're in prison ministry, you start learning
575
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:57.000
about biases and sentencing and whatnot. It's just like racial
576
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:59.759
reconciliation issues of going on there. And then you enter
577
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.680
into human trafficking and you realize all the immoral corruption
578
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.720
that's happening, even just with Christians who are viewing and
579
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:11.599
accessing porn along with the rest of American citizens and
580
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:15.440
what vulnerabilities they have. So you kind of enter into
581
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.000
a space and then you start to realize how deeply
582
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.319
connected all these other issues are, and you're like, man,
583
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.680
this is why caring about life holistically is so important.
584
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:30.400
When we adopted my son, my son's family was working
585
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:36.000
through homelessness and poverty, and that was their challenge and
586
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:37.960
they would have been if they would have had the
587
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.880
support that they needed, they would have chosen to parent themselves.
588
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:47.000
And that is a reality that hangs incredibly heavy on
589
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:50.319
my heart every day when I look at my child
590
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.720
and realize I was given the gift of parenting him.
591
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.640
My relationship with his birth mom is as open as
592
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.440
it can be, but it's also incredibly burdensome. And the
593
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.559
fact that I realized that if circumstances would have been
594
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.640
different for her, if there had been more support systems
595
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:11.279
for her, she would have been parenting this beautiful boy herself.
596
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.960
So I don't come into these spaces, especially into immigrant
597
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:20.759
and refugee issues, from this bleeding heart, and I'm just like,
598
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.119
I'm so naive to all of the challenges as far
599
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.519
as vetting and security and economics, and like, I've been
600
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.119
immersed in this about seven years, and I had to
601
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:32.480
do my homework when I wrote this book that I
602
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:35.720
just wrote. Start with welcome you. Just as a Christian,
603
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.880
you cannot unsee what you start to see. And then
604
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:42.160
it really changes the way you read scripture. You start
605
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.079
to read scripture. It's not a reinterpretation of scripture. It's
606
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.160
like a revisiting of scripture. And you start to read
607
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.799
stories you've read your entire life with new meaning and say, man,
608
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:57.839
that is a deeply human, complex story. How on earth
609
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.079
did Ruth and Naomi survive? Because this is the greatest
610
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.599
love story that's ever been in the Bible, but because
611
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:06.880
those two immigrant women who are figuring out how to
612
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:11.119
survive in Old Testament times, It's like this is an
613
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:15.039
immigration story. This is a migration story. And how they
614
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.440
survived was by the laws that the Lord put in
615
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.640
place for his people to follow about kinship and about
616
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:24.559
gleaning the fields and about treating those who are sojourning
617
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:28.279
as natives. And you just see this throughout the whole
618
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.559
of Scripture, that these really kind of quote cute stories
619
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:33.559
that we would read and be like, oh, I'll take
620
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.440
this application for myself, you start to think, Wow, what
621
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.720
is the Lord actually really telling me about how what
622
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.440
he cares about vulnerable people from Genesis to Revelation. And
623
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.640
it has nothing to do with politics and has nothing
624
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.559
to do with me being naive. It has everything to
625
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.880
do with me trying to see people as God does
626
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.359
and how the scripture tells me, you know, how they're struggling,
627
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:56.440
what they need, and what the Lord does to provide
628
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:57.559
for them through his people.
629
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:01.920
Yea. For those who are familiar with with reading the Bible,
630
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.839
one of the repeated kind of refrains that we see
631
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:07.839
in the Old Testament scriptures is that the Lord's concerned
632
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:12.599
for widows, orphans, and sojournists as often how it's trying.
633
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.920
Yeah, the quartet of the vulnerable as Tim Killer described
634
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:16.960
it right in the Old Testament.
635
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.599
Yeah, and that we see that from throughout the Old Testament.
636
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:24.359
We see that particular concern because those in those contacts
637
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.119
would have been the most vulnerable people. And then we
638
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:31.119
see it like double down on or travel down on
639
00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:35.839
all you know, ten thousand times more in Jesus's teaching
640
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:41.880
and his ministry and his profound love and care, especially
641
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.799
for those who are struggling financially, socially on the edges
642
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.839
of things, struggling with health, and how Jesus radically put
643
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.559
the the weakest and most vulnerable at the center of
644
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:59.039
our kind of moral concern, and that how that now
645
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:03.000
actually shapes how people think actually across the West, regardless
646
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.920
of how they identify religiously. That you know your friends
647
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.440
you've mentioned or you've had contact with who may have
648
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:12.800
come to completely different conclusions than you when it comes
649
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:13.800
to pro life issues.
650
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.519
The care that they have actually.
651
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.519
Springs out of beliefs that have come to us from
652
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.159
the Bible. You know, these ideas about human equality and
653
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:24.960
care for the poor and vulnerable, and the equality of
654
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:28.119
men and women, et cetera. The fact that rape is wrong,
655
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.519
the fact that you know women have been sexually be
656
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:32.920
is like all of these, if we look historically, have
657
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:35.519
come from Christianity, and when we take Christianity out of
658
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:37.599
that system, we not only have sort of we don't
659
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:41.039
have a moral ground to stand on, but we also
660
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:43.880
It was sort of interesting hearing you reflecting on how, yes,
661
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:45.679
Christians are doing more than others when it comes to
662
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.119
fostering and adopting, but we aren't doing half enough that
663
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.559
that actually what we need is not less Christianity but
664
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.719
more like both.
665
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:57.440
Well in consistency, right, because I mean, here's the truth
666
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:01.639
is that traditional pro lifers, people who are are big
667
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:03.800
time advocates just really kind of in the preborn and
668
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:08.079
adoption space, will have criticism towards those who are more
669
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:10.239
holistic in their pro life and they'll say, well, you,
670
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.760
you who advocate for immigrants or refugees, You who advocate
671
00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:18.079
for you know, the prevention of preventable diseases and things
672
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.719
like you know, hunger and all these other kind of
673
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:24.280
like humanitarian social justice causes over here, don't ever advocate
674
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.119
for preborn lives. And yet you have these kind of
675
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.280
more holistic pro lifers who will say to the preborn
676
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:33.199
traditional space, well, you guys don't advocate for life after
677
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:36.440
the will, so it's like you have. And it's true,
678
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.840
traditional pro lifers feel like going to this kind of
679
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:43.079
holistic conversation at the ethic is out of scope, and
680
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.639
some will say that it really waters down the pro
681
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.199
life conversation to be talking about all of these human
682
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:51.679
dignity issues. And then you have these whole life pro
683
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:55.639
lifers who are saying, okay, well, you're not being consistent then,
684
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:57.480
you know, so that what I would say is, I
685
00:35:57.559 --> 00:35:59.320
see a lot of people who care about immigrants or
686
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.039
refugees not caring about the preborn. And I see a
687
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.760
lot of people who are in the preborn space who
688
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.679
think that immigrants' refugees are just too political of an issue.
689
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:10.360
I'm like, hey, surprise, surprise, abortion is the most political
690
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.480
issue apart from immigration. So like, it's not that you're
691
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.639
afraid of politics, it's about the right kind of and
692
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.400
the acceptable politics that you want to put into place.
693
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.079
And I will say is, as you you know, we're
694
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.360
in a political season, so let's just like not you know,
695
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:26.079
the elephant in the room is like, okay, well, how
696
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:28.719
do you really kind of vote your convictions? If you're
697
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:30.360
a whole life pro lifer and you want to be
698
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.519
consistent across the board, I hope that this frees you
699
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.920
up a little bit. Like, no matter who you vote for,
700
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:40.000
your vote is going to be imperfect. It's not going
701
00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:43.880
to encompass the entirety of the Gospel. It's your vote
702
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.559
on any Republican, Republican or Democrats that's going to be
703
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:49.599
elected for the next four to eight years is not
704
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.079
going to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. That's
705
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.719
our job as Christians in partnership with the Holy Spirit,
706
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.440
is to do that. You know, it's not this political
707
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.079
candidate that we need to be putting our faith in.
708
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:01.440
The thing is, no matter how you vote, I don't
709
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.239
care which way you vote, actually, because you need people
710
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.840
who are holistic pro lifers on both sides of whatever
711
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.880
platform you want to attach yourself to. The point is
712
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.760
is that you do your civic duty. It's not a
713
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.239
spiritual duty, it's a civic duty. It's a civic privilege.
714
00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:18.920
And then you advocate. You use your voice, as Proverbs says,
715
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:20.760
speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves in
716
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:24.000
the years in between. It's so important. Let's say, let's
717
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.320
say you vote for Trump, you actually have so much
718
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.400
more power in the years in between to say, hey,
719
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:33.760
I see you doing well on this issue, but I've
720
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:36.039
voted for you. I'm a Christian and I need you
721
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:38.079
to I need to see you do better on these things.
722
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:40.280
These things matter to me and I care about them,
723
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.880
and I should be important to you in your campaign too.
724
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.280
Same thing. You know, if you vote for Kamala or
725
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:48.119
you know whatever, it's like, Hey, I've voted for you,
726
00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:50.800
and I really love what you're saying about here, and
727
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:53.440
I love your inspiration to congress about this, But what
728
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:55.639
I don't see is this, and I need to. So
729
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:00.480
it's truly, honestly, the years in between that matter. And
730
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:02.360
it's not the president that has a ton of power,
731
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:07.159
it's actually Congress. So the local level proximity to issues
732
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.880
and advocacy and issues is vastly important because those are
733
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.119
people who are making laws, But it's the years in between,
734
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.800
it's the speaking up for those who cannot speak for
735
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.960
themselves to the people who hold the power, who create
736
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.679
policies that affect people. That is massively important for you
737
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.800
to understand. We're not talking about partis and politics here,
738
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.840
We're talking about public policy, and I think people don't
739
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:32.199
always understand that those two things are very different.
740
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:37.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And to sort of take that even
741
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:40.559
down one further step to what you and I can
742
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.800
do in our local communities, Like maybe it's participating. Perhaps
743
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:47.440
you're a member of a church that has a ministry
744
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:50.679
to refugees, like the church that I'm part of does,
745
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.719
Like maybe if that's something that we could volunteer for,
746
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.199
maybe you're someone who is in a position to think
747
00:38:55.239 --> 00:38:59.719
about adoption or to think about volunteering at a center
748
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.360
that's that's giving options to young women who may be
749
00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:08.039
facing an unexpected pregnancy and desperate to know what they
750
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.599
should do and need or help that there are very
751
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.519
they're on the ground things that you and I can do.
752
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.159
And I'm speaking to a law listeners as well to
753
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:20.480
make a difference in the lives of those with him.
754
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:22.880
We also have sort of that physical proximity.
755
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:25.760
And if you don't know in your community, if you're
756
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:28.840
listening to Rebecca and you're like, yeah, I care about
757
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:30.599
all these issues. Like a lot of times I hear
758
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:33.519
people say, you know, like, oh, you care about immigrants
759
00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:37.280
or refues, Well what about homeless veterans? What about and
760
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.760
then fill in the blank whatever other vulnerable population is
761
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.800
out there, usually having to do with kind of someone
762
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.800
who is absolutely definitely a US citizen or whatnot. What
763
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:50.840
I would say is the Lord's love and welcome is
764
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.800
for everybody, And a lot of times people say that
765
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.679
as a cop out. So when I say, man, I
766
00:39:55.800 --> 00:40:00.039
love that you care about homeless veterans, what are you
767
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.519
doing to help alleviate the suffering? And help continue the
768
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:07.000
flourishing of their lives in your community. It's like dead silence, right,
769
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:09.639
or if I say, oh, man, I love that you're
770
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:11.840
in the preborn space, I love that you're in this
771
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:14.079
space or whatever, I'm like, what are you doing to
772
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.400
really kind of like get close in your own community?
773
00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.679
There's like crickets, so a lot of there's just like
774
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:21.800
a lot of talking points out there, and there's not
775
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:26.920
a lot of people who are willing to carve out
776
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:31.800
margin to actually be in those issues and to make
777
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:35.159
a difference in a change with their own lives. So
778
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.079
they're they're frustrated that other people care about other things
779
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:40.679
and want to make change for other people, but a
780
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:44.000
lot of times there's not an outpouring in their own lives.
781
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.880
There's an anger, but there's not necessarily like a prioritization
782
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:49.960
in their own lives to care about people that God
783
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.360
says are made in His image and likeness, regardless of
784
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:53.719
citizenship or status.
785
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:58.079
You know, yeah, yeah, a privilege. A few episodes ago,
786
00:40:58.159 --> 00:40:59.920
well now maybe it was the end of Lost Losses,
787
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.039
and I was talking with a friend at our church who,
788
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:06.480
as part of being involved in the welcome of refugees,
789
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:08.679
at our church had noticed that one of the big
790
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.480
problems that refugee families have when they shot up in
791
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:15.079
Boston is that they don't have childcare, so they can't
792
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:17.440
find work because they actually don't have anybody to care
793
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:20.519
for their kids they're working. And so she, with her
794
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:24.159
particular sort of professional background and areas of expertise, she's
795
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:26.880
been thinking about, Okay, how can we figure out a
796
00:41:26.920 --> 00:41:31.880
way to provide daycare for especially for these families, and
797
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.400
that might also be opportunities for employment for some of
798
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:36.599
some of these families. And so she's been kind of
799
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.639
using the gifts and background that God has given her
800
00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:45.480
to start piloting a project like that that is enabling
801
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:47.920
people to sort of flourish in the place where they've
802
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:52.079
they've found themselves. And I'm willing to bet everyone who
803
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.039
is listening to this podcast, well, we all have very
804
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:58.039
different giftings, we have different skill sets, we have different
805
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.079
amounts of resources in one area the other, and we're
806
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:03.719
not all called to do the exact same things, but
807
00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:07.800
all of us can make a tangible contribution in one
808
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:10.079
of the areas or several of the areas that Brian
809
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:12.960
and I have been talking about. So I guess it's easy.
810
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:14.440
It can be easy, I think for people to feel
811
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.519
just like overwhelmed. You've done a great job for us,
812
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:21.320
Bree of kind of pointing us to the complexity and
813
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:26.400
the web of issues that are tangled up and the
814
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.760
the difficulties that come with you know, anytime we actually
815
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.519
step meaningfully into any of these spaces, none of it's easy.
816
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:35.159
None of it can be oversimplified. It's going to come
817
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.320
with like a personal and emotional cost. And I love
818
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.679
how you've modeled that for us as well, and that
819
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.239
can can result in us feelings just sort of crippled
820
00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:44.639
of like, well, I'm not going to dip my turn
821
00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:48.039
to anything because it's too much for me. I just
822
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.719
would I just would encourage people to take that first
823
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:52.920
step and to think, you know, what.
824
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:53.400
Can I do?
825
00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:56.920
How can I contribute and recognize at the same time
826
00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.440
that Jesus is the savior of the world. I think
827
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:02.880
that's something that as a Christian I can sometimes in
828
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.920
these spaces start to think, Oh, it feels so overwhelming,
829
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:08.039
what can I do? Like I can only do this
830
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:12.000
small thing? And that's okay, because actually you and I
831
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:14.840
individually are not the savior of the world, that's Jesus.
832
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:17.480
But at the same time, if you're a follower of Jesus,
833
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.000
you're a part of his body on the earth today.
834
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.840
And so between us, it is our job to show
835
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:24.400
up in all of these different spaces.
836
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:26.639
We're all not everyone's supposed to be a hand, not
837
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:27.639
everyone's supposed to be a foot.
838
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:28.679
But this is why we are the body.
839
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:32.679
We're supposed to function in different ways, but in unity together.
840
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.280
And I think it was I think it was Mother
841
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:36.840
Teresa who said, you might not be able to solve
842
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:38.920
global starvation, but you can feed a child.
843
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:39.559
Yeah.
844
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.199
And also I would just encourage you, you know, getting
845
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:47.360
into these spaces human dignity issues, whether that's the preborn
846
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.960
or whether that's adoption, or no matter what it is, immigrants, refugees,
847
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:55.480
human trafficking, no matter what it is, you're going to
848
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.719
have to show up and be able to hold the
849
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:01.119
tension of that. More things can be true at the
850
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.920
same time, and to show up well means you're going
851
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.960
to have to hold that and you're gonna have to
852
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.320
do that in a charitable and a christ like way.
853
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:12.480
So you might not agree with everything, you might not
854
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:17.800
even understand everything, but you're not looking for an outcome. Necessarily,
855
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:20.840
you're looking for the posture of your heart to be
856
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.400
aligned with Christ in whatever it is that you're doing.
857
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:29.280
So you know, for me, I don't always understand why
858
00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:32.440
why things are the way that they are in immigration,
859
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:35.199
but what I do know is that I can care
860
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:39.039
about safe and secure borders and thorough vetting and also
861
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:43.079
the humane treatment of people who are arriving at the border. Right,
862
00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:45.559
I can hold both of those things together and not
863
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:50.000
have to compromise on what I think about policy and
864
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:54.000
legislation but also about people. There's no compromise there. There's
865
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.840
conviction in that, and there's also charitability in that, and
866
00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:00.239
there is a Hopefully what that communicates is that I'm
867
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:03.840
trying to show up and stand kind of in the middle,
868
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:06.840
not because of a lack of conviction, but because there is.
869
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.760
There are too many complicating factors to make this just
870
00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:14.079
a slam dunk, so you know, easy solution. Human dignity
871
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.360
issues are complicated. So Christians should be the ones that
872
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:20.480
are standing in the gap and saying these are the
873
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.519
realities that we face and they can't be controversial. People's
874
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:30.000
flourishing shouldn't be too political for us to care about. Yeah, yeah,
875
00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:33.800
let's let's enter into this as Christ would, because everything
876
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:37.639
he entered into was super controversial to the Pharisees and
877
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:41.440
even to his own disciples. They didn't understand. And Sheila Walsh,
878
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:44.480
who I love, she said this quote that I repeat
879
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:46.800
all the time, and she said, people will not always
880
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:49.119
understand what the love of Christ compels you to do,
881
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.920
but you should do it anyway. And that's what I guess.
882
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:54.880
You know, when you're saying we all have a part
883
00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:58.119
to play, I agree with you, and not everyone's going
884
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:01.880
to understand what parts of the body the Lord is
885
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.320
calling you the flex But that's okay because you're not
886
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:09.039
going after it because of some kind of earthly recognition.
887
00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:13.119
You're doing it because you have compassion and conviction from Christ.
888
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:15.679
Yeah, that's a great place for us.
889
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:19.719
And thank you so much, Brief for sharing your thoughts
890
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:23.519
and experience and challenging us. I think I feel challenged,
891
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:25.440
and I guess is that all of us listening to
892
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:28.679
this conversation will feel challenged to what extent If we
893
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.360
are followers of Jesus, are we thinking holistically? Are we
894
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:34.280
acting holistically? Are we only focusing on talking points? Or
895
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:36.639
are we kind of putting our money on our lives
896
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:41.000
where our mouths are on these questions. And perhaps you're
897
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:43.760
listening to this and you would not call yourself follower
898
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:47.400
of Jesus, and you've been confused or concerned by some
899
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.079
of the things that we've been saying.
900
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:50.360
I would encourage you.
901
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:54.599
To actually open up a Bible and to look at
902
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:59.280
the ways in which the love for and concern for
903
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.360
the mostvulnerable that you may well feel deep in your
904
00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:07.000
heart has actually come to you from the Bible and
905
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:10.039
not from you know, a sort of secular well view
906
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:14.119
out there, or from a sort of progressive view or whatever.
907
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.639
It's actually come to you historically from the Bible. It's
908
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:19.599
something that we've covered in other episodes, and it may
909
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:23.400
just be that going back to that source will help
910
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:25.199
make a whole lot of other things make sense in
911
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:27.280
your life. So you guys have been listening to the
912
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:30.719
com Friendly Christianity Podcast. You can follow us on Twitter,
913
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.719
slash x, or Instagram. You can leave a review on
914
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.800
iTunes and mention there a conversation or a topic you'd
915
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:39.960
like to see pursued on a future episode. And thank
916
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:43.519
you for listening today, And I hope to speak into
917
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:46.679
your earphones or your carst area or whatever it is
918
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:48.920
that you listen through again next week.