Beyond Zero: Transforming Business Through Storytelling and Sustainability with Nathan Havey

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Hi, I'm Christina. I'm from Prague. Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada. Hi, I'm Oladunji and I'm from Nigeria. Hello, I'm Liki and I live in Paris. Hi, I'm Brian and I'm from New York. Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with Carbon Conversations for every day, with everyone, from everywhere in the world. In our conversations, we share ideas, questions, and answers. Perspectives, questions, and things we can actually do to make a difference. So don't be shy and join our carbon sessions because it's not too late. Hi, I'm Leakey. And hi, I'm Brian and very excited to be here today with, uh, Nathan Havey, uh, an extraordinary filmmaker who really creates some impressive products and films that, uh, Um, so Nathan, we're really excited to have you here and join us on the podcast today. Thank you for joining us. It's my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. Well, I, you know, I've got a million and one questions. I'll start with, I think that for both myself, leaky and some of the other carbon almanac and carbon collective podcasters, you know, we, we really got our first introduction to you, uh, around the film beyond zero. Uh, you're really powerful story about interface and sort of it's the Ray Anderson story and on all that stuff. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about how you first came into and found that story? I know there's a cool little story in of how the story got found and then let's dive a little bit more into, into sort of like your entire filmmaking process. Sure. Yeah. So the, the, the first time that I encountered the interface story, I was actually reading Ray Anderson's book, Confessions of a Radical Industrialist. I had been a staffer in the U S Congress. Um, I'd always wanted to be somebody that kind of used my working life to create the world that we all believe is possible. Um, and I thought that, you know, the policy process was probably the best way to do that. Um, but getting into Washington and seeing the way that things actually work, I Pretty disillusioned pretty fast. And I didn't really know what else to do, but I knew that that wasn't it for me. Um, and I, right around when I was leaving, um, I picked up that book and I'm in it, you see Ray Anderson, largely quoting Paul Hawken, talking about how there's different kind of dominant institutions in the world throughout human history, you know, at one point it was religion and the church at one point it was state power, but today it really is business, it's capitalism. It organizes the effort of humanity. I, it really, uh, makes the world go around. And so if we want to respond to the great challenges that face us right now, um, changing the way that business works is probably the most effective lever that there is. And that just really resonated for me. It opened up a totally new way of, of seeing the world. And then the interface case is, is a fantastic example of what one company can do that can really revolutionize a whole industry and beyond. And so I, I loved it and then kind of started to move into business consulting, just try to understand how it is that companies can make the transformation from a run of the mill for profit competitive enterprise to something that's truly visionary. Um, and I had, uh, gosh, seven years later, um, I was running a storytelling program and, uh, uh, we were going to do a show in Atlanta and I told my team, I really want to get somebody from interface. And, uh, we ended up having Erin Mizan, who at the time was their head of sustainability, uh, come and tell her story. And, um, and you actually can see a piece of that evening in the film. And so, as she told everything that Enterprise had been up to since after Ray's death, you know, he published his last book in 2009 or 2010, I think, and he died in 2011. And so, this is, you know, seven years later, and they continued to just do these amazing things. unbelievably world changing things and I didn't know anything about it. And so as Aaron told me all of this, uh, and then I met some of the other interface team that said all the stuff that wasn't in Ray's book. Um, I just sort of saw this hero's journey, kind of a narrative take shape. And I had never made a movie before, but my father owned a documentary film company and I approached him and said, you know, do you think we could take a shot at this? And he said, if you can, Do the deal, you know, raise the money and get the permissions and all that kind of stuff and maybe we can, um, and so it just kind of was one of these ideas that, that possessed me a little, um, and, uh, just kept waiting for the thing that would say, no, you, this is a hurdle that you can't climb over. And so the, the film got done and, you know, now it's in 13 languages and it's being used in hundreds of business schools around the world and it's on airplanes, ironically, um, and all kinds of stuff. It's been, it's been a hell of a journey. It's cool. That's, um, uh, so amazing and we're so glad that there wasn't anything that stopped you, anything that you let stop you. I'm sure there were things that were challenging and hard to get past, but you got past them, so we're very happy about that. Um, maybe that's actually an interesting moment to just, uh, I've got a whole other line of questions, but like double clicking to that for a second, what were some of those challenges that you bumped into any stories around some of those things that you might share with our audience and sort of the perseverance through it? Yeah, I mean, the first thing was just, you know, what the pitch is to, so the, the, the only way that we knew we could do the doc is that I knew that interface had been filming for a long time, uh, they, they'd filmed all of their big stuff. And so I knew that they had a huge corporate archive. And so when I went to them to say, I want to try to make a new documentary film about the interface story, um, the pitch was. I don't want to dime. Um, it needs to be independently funded. All I need is unfettered access to your archive and it has to be independent. And you know, at that time, I'd never made a movie. Um, I was largely still, I am a total no name director. Um, and so it was sort of like, well, I mean, what's the worst that could happen. And it was Aaron Meezan, uh, who shepherded us through that process. And it's actually funny because it was about last year, Aaron has since left to take a major role in sustainability at JLL. And, uh, the chief counsel at interface wrote me and said, we're having a hard time finding the copy of the deal that you signed, gave you access to our archive. I said, well, cause there isn't one, uh, Aaron and I just had a handshake and they're like, you what? Um, and so, uh, we. You know, have now, uh, solidified all that and made it, made it all good, but it's like right there, uh, you know, the sort of courage of Aaron Meezan to take a chance because we had, we had, you know, known each other for a couple of years at that point. There was a high degree of trust about the intentions and what was going to happen. Um, and so it was, uh, it was this sort of lucked out. Because I think if lawyers had gotten involved at that early stage, it never would have happened. Obviously, that's one of them. That was kind of just a fun serendipity. And the other was just raising the, raising the funds. And so I, I had a couple of consulting relationships, uh, where, you know, CEOs that had some means and they were willing to give some seed funding to help us get the, you know, the beginning of it done. And the first scene that we were able to cut was that, um, you know, towards the beginning of the film, there's, you know, What happened on August 31st of 1994, which is the day that Ray Anderson came in and he gave that unbelievable speech, challenging their eco task force, uh, to actually create a regenerative company. Um, it's a super, super cool scene, but that's all we have. Um, and so I later was able to attend a big, um, it's the conscious capitalism CEO summit. And, uh, uh, I was hoping to sort of meet people there that could help to, to fund the rest of the projects, but I hadn't had any luck. And, uh, an advisor of mine, um, uh, her name is Laura Hall and she's a big leader, uh, in San Diego trying to transform business like this. She and I were at dinner and she said, Nathan, why are you being so like shy? Just go up to the conference organizer, tell her you have a very powerful bit of film and ask if they'll put it on the main stage. And I never thought about doing anything as bold as that. Um, but I was like, I mean, what do I have to lose? And so I went up and showed up and it's later, there was a hole in the program and they said, get up there. Uh, and so I was able to do a one minute intro and we played the clip. And in the audience was somebody who had been totally inspired by Ray Anderson a decade before had transformed his business to be one of the major leaders in FSC certified lumber. That's a bill Hayward from Hayward lumber. And he asked me to have coffee with him the next morning. And he said, how much do you need to finish it? I told him the number and he said, I think I can do that. Wow, that's, I mean, I love all the moments of sort of serendipity happening there and like things coming together, uh, and, and maybe, maybe the, the outcome would have been different, but, but similar even through a different pathway, but this pathway sounds pretty, pretty interesting. Excited. I'm glad. I'm glad that Laurie nudged you and you're bold and made the move and. You know, and it's it's great. I started my career in the timber industry and the lumber industry I worked in a lumber mill for years and and it's really cool. I didn't know that tidbit about this film There was actually like a lumber company that helped create some funding to get you going, you know, like so that's actually Personally cool. That's wonderful. Yeah. Um Well, you know, I want to ask this, we've got so many different topics we want to dive into today with you on the topic of the film, uh, of specifically beyond zero, the way it's set up and, and, you know, I'll share this. Um, like I've used it with my employees as a film where I'll watch together and then talk about both. How do we set big goals and move towards big goals together, irrespective of environmentalism, right? Just like the topic of moving towards big goals. And then additionally, or maybe in a primary fan fashion, um, how do we make our company Following these particular footsteps of becoming, you know, regenerative and, and stuff in, in sort of our own business and things that we're in and, and our, the challenge for the business I'm in, in a daily fashion is far less of a challenge to make that conversion than interface, right? Than, than the, the nature of carpet and glues and delivered product and that, you know, polyester, all this, all this stuff that they overcame is far bigger. And the business I'm in. And so that itself is almost an inspiring thing. You know, it's like, well, if they can do it, we ought to be able to do this. Right. Totally. Right. So I'm so I think one of the things that if we're talking up here to our audience and thinking a little bit about sort of this intentionalness within businesses and using businesses as that modern religion, as you sort of said, to like drive change forward, how do our audience members that are either Or leaders or owners or operators or, you know, how do they engage with beyond zero give a little bit of the mechanicals and logistics here because I think it's it's useful to the audience to understand this, like, how do they go use this inspirational film to help people? bring about change in the broader world through the company they're at or they have connectivity to or are they're leading? Totally. And there's, um, uh, the, the answer to that question, uh, tactically, uh, depends on where they are. Um, what we've been really fortunate to attract about a dozen, um, kind of geographical distribution partners. Um, and so in, uh, in Europe, uh, there's a, a different group that's leading the charge there, uh, Australia, Hong Kong, and mainland China. Thailand, Korea. Um, so it, it, it, um, uh, if they go to beyond zero film. com, uh, they'll sort of find the local, uh, person. And then each of those folks has a slightly different approach, uh, for basically how you get some of the design principles. In the interface journey, uh, teased out so that companies can really take a look at, um, you know, some of, some of the really important things, as you said, um, you know, interface is an environmental story, but the principles in it, uh, can actually be used to, to chase any, uh, you know, we, we use the phrase worthy purpose. Something that is big and bold and important in the world. Um, and certainly there's plenty to do on the environmental front, but there's a lot to do on, on sort of social, uh, factors as well. Um, and, and major technical challenges and other things. So, um, the, the, the basic way though, is that if, if a company wants to use the film, it's, it's a fantastic tool to expand the. I guess the scope of what people are willing to talk about when you look at what is our big vision? What is our big, bold thing that this company is going to be for? Um, is most people have been trained in sort of the, the business understanding that you never want to set a goal that you don't know you can hit. Right. Cause it would be embarrassing if you fell short and, um, the interface case is exactly the opposite. Uh, it is that when you, when you, when you set a goal that, you know, you cannot hit that, you know, you don't even, you don't even know how to get there. That's the thing that actually inspires people. That's the thing that drives dramatic innovation, uh, that, that has people really plug in and, and want to come in and do it and, and, There's, this is different than like a, a ridiculous growth target or, you know, being the market leader when you're not even, you know, when you, when you, when you, when you don't have any, it's different than that. It's, it really is based on again, this worthy problem, you know, there's, there's something in the world that really needs doing and darn it. We're going to see that it happens, not quote, do our part. But we're actually going to own that. We're going to make this new way of doing things possible. And, and that kind of, um, vision, uh, that kind of, uh, you know, throw your hat over the wall so that you have to climb that wall and see what's on the other side. That's the magic in this. Uh, but it's not a initiative. Uh, it's not a side project. It's not a, you know, something that you can partner with a nonprofit and throw some money at. Um, the real magic here is that this is the thing that becomes what your company is for. Um, and when, when a company can really do that, uh, it, it, it unlocks this, um, potential, uh, that, that is really, really good for business actually. Um, and so there's no trade off here. Uh, and it's, it's a really, it's a really cool framework. And so when companies are using the film, they then can get into some of these conversations about, um, What they could do, uh, that would be as big and as bold and as frankly advantageous. Uh, and so, um, you can either sort of do a screening within the company and, and, um, try to get that conversation going. Um, or you can work with, you know, a number of different, uh, facilitators or consultants. There is a workshop now, um, that's called solving the impossible, uh, that companies can go through to try to really gin up a lot of these things and lay out the basics of what the, the elements of a major plan would need to be. Uh, we believe that If the film is really inspiring, uh, and people absolutely love it, but nothing changes, uh, then it wasn't worth it. That's just entertainment. Uh, and so we really are committed that, that we want to try to see what needs to go with the film, uh, to really have it make a, uh, a demonstrable impact on the, the way that business works in the world. Yeah, no, that's great. And I think one of the things I loved about it, right. So like, you know, living and working in sort of a corporate and business world for my professional career, it was the allowance to like, also focus on a goal that wasn't, Um, not only did you not know if you could achieve it and whatever, and it was impactful and meaningful, but it was also like very longitudinal, like very like the, we can't even begin to think that this will happen near term, like we all can acknowledge that. And so we're going to embark on something that we know will take us not, not months, not quarters, not years, but decades, right. To like, get there and, and be. Committed to the consistency that that requires, right? Cause then that, if you, if you allow yourself into that kind of category, you, you take off the nearness of the goals as a filter, the things you can go try to accomplish and achieve all of a sudden, like there's new things that show up and are available to you in what your goals can be. Exactly. Um, and I think there's, um, you know, to use Ray Anderson's language on this, Uh, you know, he talked about. Compliance is not a vision, and I think there's a lot of companies, especially as I think this is actually a good thing, you know, as the Europeans are really leading and trying to figure out the right metrics, the right standards, all of that is great, and companies really risk being in the game of trying to comply. With the ever increasing bar on the regulatory environment here versus, as you said, setting the like, boy, it, you know, in a, in a, what, if we had 30 years or 20, you know, and, and we really wanted to achieve something that just is impossible. today. What would that thing be? And I think it's really important to have that vision. But interestingly, the other thing that's on the cutting room floor, uh, from the interface story is, um, Connie Hensler is one of the great, uh, characters in the film. And she's, you know, one of the technical minds that really helped them to, to unlock a few of their major innovations. But she told me that at one point, um, interface had set a target, uh, you know, this, this mission zero concept, um, and that came from the marketing department. Yeah. Um, and as an engineer and a scientist, uh, she really took issue with zero. Uh, it's a physical impossibility. There is no zero. Like there, it just, it's not gonna happen. Um, and so she really got hung up on it for a long time. And, and, uh, you know, from a, from a, a dreaming and a vision statement. I mean, yeah, what you want to, let's save half the whales, you know, it's, it doesn't have the same rate, you know, but, but, uh, but there is both the need for that big hairy long term vision, you know, the summiting of Mount sustainability and interfaces parlance. Um, but then there's also the sort of operational practicalities of it. And the way that it finally clicked for Connie was that her boss said, Connie, I agree with you, but right now let's focus on 50%. Right. What would it take to cut our impact in half? And how fast could we do it? And that for her brain went, Oh, well, that, yeah, we could, that we could do. We'd have to bop, bop, bop, And then that drove thing. And so there is like this, there's the far term, the super long term thing and the practical milestones. What do we need to do this year? You know, that, that's the other piece of it that I think a lot of people miss when they set these big crazy things that it really does need to get baked into the, the quarter by quarter planning, right? Doing the incentive structures, uh, for executives and for factory floor people. And, you know, there's a lot of sort of practical change management stuff in this also, uh, that is critically important. But when you have that practical change management stuff animated by the big impossible thing, I think that's where the magic is. I think that the film interface is very inspiring, at least it inspired me a lot because, um, I, I shouldn't admit that I'm a little bit, I was actually, I was a little bit skeptical about big companies being able to transform from within, and, um, and I think, um, and I think it's because I'm a little bit biased because I've worked in various small companies in the battery industry, but, um, but I think interface when this, when Ray Anderson involved the whole company into his journey, he was a leader in the, in the U S in the corporate market. Right. Yeah, so I'm, I'm curious, what is, according to you, what are the challenges that stop other companies, a lot of companies, of course, and other companies in the same industry and in other industries to embark and to start this journey of transformation? I think that, um, so just one, one nuanced point is that, uh, my, my understanding of the carbon mark, or excuse me, the carpet market, uh, in, in, uh, in the U S and globally is that, uh, there's, there's a lot of bigger companies that do a lot of things. Uh, in interior finishings and all kinds of stuff. And then, uh, carpet is a division or flooring is a division of what they do. So there are much larger companies than Interface that are out there. They may even have more market share in flooring specifically. Uh, but Interface is just flooring. Um, and so that was kind of the, the, uh, the innovation for them. Um, And so as a, like a just flooring company, uh, yeah, they, they had been fortune 500. Um, and so they were a major player, if not the market leader, uh, for, for most of their history and they still are. Um, but to your question about, uh, you know, for, for a lot of companies, what is the thing that stops them? Um, I think that there's a really important distinction between, um, companies that are publicly traded and not. So, um, interface, uh, is, was publicly traded and Ray Anderson had a controlling stake in the shares. And so he did not actually have a, a, a real risk of an investor revolt that would oust him. Uh, if you look at Danone, um, there, uh, was trying to be a Ray Anderson kind of a character, uh, but, uh, did not, uh, did not get it right with making sure that the investors were lockstep behind the vision and they did indeed it oust him, uh, for trying to do some of the stuff that would have been like Danone's version of the same kind of transformational stuff. Another great case is Paul Pullman at Unilever, uh, where, um, one of the things that he did the day he was hired, literally the day he was hired, he told Wall Street that Unilever would no longer be doing quarterly reporting. And, uh, he knew that that was, that was essential to buy him time to be able to make some of the longer term important investments, uh, that, you know, I think that in many ways, Unilever is a great leader on this stuff now. Are they, uh, unimpeachable? No, nobody is perfect. But, uh, they've really done a ton and that's largely because, uh, Paul Pullman was able to get them out of the quarterly earnings game as a publicly traded company. And the reason he did it on his first day, he jokes, is that he, he knew that they couldn't fire him on his first day and the rest is kind of history for that. So. Uh, those anecdotes are that for publicly traded companies, there are tremendous hurdles. A lot of the investments that you make, a lot of the strategies that you would undertake, they pay off in years, not quarters. Um, and so if you have investors that are really holding your feet in the fire on your quarterly performance, there are, um, additional complexities, not impossible. about the first third of the sustainability journey for most companies is actually waste elimination. And so it is directly in line with increasing profits and with creating a sounder business. And so that's not a, um, that's not, it's not a nonstarter. It's just that, uh, the margin for error in a publicly traded company, especially one that is subject to quarterly earnings is Uh, much, much smaller than it is for other companies. And so that's a thing, but even for the companies that are not publicly traded, uh, for private companies, um, you still have the same thing. Um, it's, it's this matter of getting everybody really, truly, honestly on board with this is what we are for, uh, because so much of the, I guess the water in which business people swim, um, has, you know, for the last, uh, 50 years, especially been very much in the, you know, profit maximization is the purpose for business period. Right. And there is a way that, that, you know, uh, aligning business with the life support systems of earth, uh, and with, you know, the, the things that we need to preserve a, a, a robust and just society, uh, those things are good for profit over the long term. But, uh, there are virtually no business leaders that have had formal training that have great understanding of the way that you lead companies that way. And so for anybody that's going to try it, um, there is so much swimming upstream. Even with your own executive teams, uh, to try to get people aligned with the dynamics of the way that an interface like story can manifest. Uh, so it is just a constant educational challenge, and Ray Anderson lucked into doing it right. Because he had largely stepped out as the functional CEO when this journey began for him, uh, there was a, a successor era parent that was there helping to run the company and do all the business stuff. And so it really freight freed Ray up to be the sort of scholar philosopher, CEO with a lot of time to really read and then translate and then present again and again, and again, and again, the work. The imperative for why interface had to do this, and it really became, uh, it became the culture, uh, and, and, and with, with any less investment than that, I don't think it would have worked. And interestingly, um, this again is on the cutting room floor, but the person that was the heir apparent that was hired in to run all things interface, um, he went along with it. But in 1999, uh, he did something that's under an NDA, uh, so I can't go into it too much. Uh, but he did something that showed that, uh, he actually was still playing the game of maximizing exit instead of achieving the mission. And, uh, uh, he, uh, Ray and he had a, a, a, a really intense, uh, conversation. And, uh, 48 hours later he was gone. And, uh, uh, they had to figure out, that's what sort of started the search for the new CEO. Wow. And that's where Dan s comes in a couple years later. Um, and so even there, even there, the amount of investment it takes to make sure that your executive team gets and is able to embody, uh, this higher purpose, this other thing that your company is trying to do. Um, it, it is, it is, it is the most frequent thing that people get wrong. You know, it's interesting inside the company I'm part of. Uh, I sold my company into what is a fortune 500 company. So I'm now part of this very, you know, a similar kind of large thing with, which has all these, you know, maybe these dynamics that you're referring to Nathan. And one of the reasons why I love the parent company I work with is that we've got an internal motto, which is we take care of our people, meaning sort of our staff and employees and coworkers. Our people take care of our customers. Our customers take care of our profits, right? And sort of this, like we started to think and hearing you tell this story, like, and thinking about the water, we're all swimming in, in the business world, all that kind of stuff. I, I almost like envisioned this three part thing, which I think is its own version of revolutionary in many other businesses where we just focus on the profits right first, and then maybe we take care of the customers and then maybe a company takes care of its people. Right. But I love how our company has that inverted, but now maybe there's like a fourth version, a fourth layer to this. It's like we take care of our planet, our planet takes care of our people, our people take care of our customers, our customers take care of our profits, right? Like, like I'm envisioning this like fourth layer getting added into this, like staging in this, like, anyway, No, no, no. I just want to double click on that. Is that the, the, um, there are. I mean, scores of right approaches for how companies can get this. It's, it's not a one size fits all thing at all. Uh, and so what you just articulated, I think is, is absolutely the kind of thing that people are experimenting with and needing to play with. And, you know, we've, we've had 200 some years to get financial capitalism as dialed in as it is. Um, and we're only 30 maybe years into how we get ecological capitalism dialed into the same degree. And the thing is, they're not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, they really go well together. And the companies that try to lead this, uh, I think are the ones that win the future. Uh, but, um, it's, it's a lot of invention. It's a lot of figuring it out right now. And, and, and we're, we're, it's way easier than it was when interface did it. Uh, but, but there's still, there's still a great need for companies to get in the game, uh, and, and figure out how to do this in their industries. Yeah, very much so. I would like to switch gear a little bit to, um, the, to the concept of stakeholder capitalism because, um, where I am in Europe, we have a lot of discussions at they're happening, those discussions happening at the EU level about capitalism. Maybe, you know. Um, capitalism is the source of all evil. Maybe we should switch another model. And, um, and that's, you know, um, that's, that's, I don't know how is the discussion is in, uh, in the US. I believe it's not as, um, as strong as it, it is in, in, um, in Europe. Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about, or what's the concept of stakeholder capitalism is. Sure. Yeah. Um, uh, I think, So this, this goes by many names, um, and, and, uh, a lot of people get hung up on the nomenclature. Uh, and so, um, in the U. S. in particular, um, there's a lot of, um, uh, I guess politicization of some of these terms, uh, and people get hooked on, um, their version or their conception of what it is. Um, and, and in my opinion, throw the baby out with the bathwater. Um, and so, um, ESG in particular, uh, is, is, is something that is a very hot button political, uh, uh, language now in the United States. Um, and so you see all these reports saying that ESG was a fad and it's over. Um, and my. You know, that is actually the language of ESG is over because it's distracting. Um, and, uh, the intentions behind it are, are still there. And so what are those intentions? Um, the way that I, and this is if I may, I'll share something that is literally a work in progress in the last couple of weeks here. Uh, but we're trying to find the right articulation for it. And so, um, I've been working with a team of folks for years to try to, to Figure out what the language is. And so whether we call it stakeholder capitalism or regenerative capitalism or conscious capitalism, or, you know, not capitalism, but still business, you know, I don't care. I don't care. Uh, you know, B labs, benefit corporations, all of that, all of that are variations on a theme. They're all valuable. Uh, uh, but what is it? Uh, and I don't know that there's great agreement on that yet. Um, I think that, uh, the way that we're trying to talk about it is that, um, Well, here's the way we're doing it. Is, uh, we call it the story of business. And, uh, the story of business is in its third pivotal act. And we don't know how it's going to go. The first act, uh, showed sort of the very beginnings of, of capitalism, of, uh, people understanding how you raise capital, uh, and deploy revenue models to be able to solve important challenges. Uh, you know, the very first instances of a corporation were things like building a bridge over a river, um, to, you know, make it easier for people to get from one side of town to another. Um, so, you know, we had that. Uh, you know, five, 600 years ago. Um, and so that was act one and we figured out, well, shit, this is a great way to organize effort. You know, this is, this, this works. Uh, and then in act two, uh, the industrial revolution supercharges those things, uh, to frankly create, uh, a population explosion in the world. Uh, and even with the population explosion, we had a higher average quality of life, uh, than humanity had ever seen before. You know, and you know, the, the, you know, poverty is going down in, in ways. And, you know, you could, you could definitely nitpick on a lot of that kind of stuff, but, but, but on balance, life expectancy explodes and there's massive progress, massive prosperity. Um, and, uh, there were harms. That started to become apparent and, and at first, uh, they were easy enough to paper over because of some of those great gains and all that kind of stuff, but, but they accrue and they accrue and, uh, uh, enter sort of the third act, uh, where, uh, you have, you know, this runaway growth and prosperity and all that kind of stuff, but the harms now are actually growing faster, uh, than, uh, Uh, the prosperity and the growth. And so the third act, uh, will tell us, um, that fortunately, uh, about 30 years ago, uh, maybe 40, uh, there were some people who saw this and they started to try to figure out how it is that business can, um, Incorporate the harms or or the way we actually are languaging it is that there are five core harms that were created that that we really need to address and there is a way to flip each of those harms into An actual benefit that is both beneficial for society and is actually beneficial for the financial performance of a company So we know how to do it But, uh, the number of folks that have actually truly retooled and, and, and respond to their companies to take advantage of those opportunities and mitigate those harms, uh, is, is nowhere near where we would need to be for it to happen. And so we are in a race right now in the third act to find out whether business will use its great talents and strengths to rise to meet the future as it rises up to meet us, or if the comfort of the status quo. Will be too lulling for us and we'll miss our chance to do so. And so, uh, how that story ends up playing out, uh, depends on, uh, frankly, your listeners and what they choose to do with this kind of stuff. Right. Um, and so anyway, so that's, that's the narrative. And then, uh, very briefly, uh, the five. harms to opportunities are, um, we've built in a way, the first one is we've built in a way, uh, that, that is not biomimetic in nature. Uh, we have, we have sort of tried to control and dominate net nature and natural systems and processes to our detriment. Um, but in those natural systems and processes, is the design solutions. There's the stuff that would actually have everything we do work so, so much better. And, you know, in Beyond Zero, we see a couple of great examples of this. But it's from harming nature to learning from nature as guide to help you to design the future of regenerative health. Kind of capitalism. Um, and when companies get this right, they supercharge innovation. They figure out how to do things amazingly efficiently. Um, and then as the market increasingly demands those kinds of solutions, they're the ones that will be there. So to, uh, to your point, Brian, about sort of taking care of people, um, the, the workplace, uh, was set up in a way that is actually really bad for people. psychologically, emotionally, it's not, it's not good. Um, and so there's tremendous harm, uh, that happens when people live, you know, 40 hours a week in a relatively rigid, hierarchical, top down kind of a workplace, um, that has all kinds of ripple effects in our communities. Um, but, um, You can flip that and you can actually figure out how workplace culture can, by its very design, help people to become the best, truest, greatest versions of themselves. And when you do that, the thing that you pointed to happens. You take care of your people, People will then take care of customers, or if it's not so much a customer facing business, they'll take care of the innovation, they'll take care of the revenues, they'll take care of, right, and we're seeing this, um, KKR, uh, actually, the, the giant Wall Street investment firm, um, is going Is is in the process of converting its entire portfolio to an employee ownership model, uh, with the cultural transformations that come with that because they're starting to see that when, when, when the goal of the company is actually raising up and building people, uh, the company outperforms. And so even from a hard nosed venture capitalist, you know, uh, perspective, this is, this is a way that you flip the harm to become a benefit. Closely related, but, but distinct. The third one is, uh, the sort of notion that you minimize costs and funnel all profits to the ownership class of the company, um, is self defeating. It creates tremendous poverty. It creates, you know, we've seen this again and again. Um, and so if you actually pay attention to making sure that your entire supply chain. Has enough, uh, that they can, you know, not just survive, but they can get ahead, uh, and, and make sure that they share fairly in the creation of value all the way down to the raw materials producers. Um, the Mars corporation has actually shown this empirically that that actually creates greater and more stable financial returns over time. And there's a number of companies that are really trying to figure out how to do that. So that's three. Four is that largely because of, um, Uh, I will use, uh, maybe insensitive language on this, but, uh, racist legacies of colonialism and our histories all around the world. Uh, there are still these legacy ways that we are taught to see the world, um, that create these systems of discrimination in which we are all complicit. And if we are proactive in figuring out how we can break down those systems of discrimination, there are phenomenal opportunities that exist for companies that can pull that off. But in being complicit, unconsciously often, uh, you, you propagate the harm, but boy, if you can figure it out, it's different. And so another example here is there's a, um, in the United States, uh, you know, we, uh, we have, uh, a huge, Uh, prison population and people that are formerly incarcerated. I think it's, it's worse than anywhere else in the world. And, and, you know, practically speaking, you know, you do the crime, you do your time. And after that, we're supposed to be good, but we're not because if you have a felony on your resume, uh, you are basically consigned to be a permanent underclass in this country. Uh, and the, the, the people that the, the, the wasted Talent, the wasted innovation, the kind of people that could become the great new inventors and innovators and managers and all that kind of stuff that we just write off in a paper cut in our H. R. Systems. That's the kind of thing we're talking about. It's just not smart. And the early adopter companies that are figuring this out. They're finding these talent pools that there's no competition for And there, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a phenomenal advantage right now. Right? So that's, that's four. And then five is, um, there is this notion of, um, maximizing your own advantage and minimizing your own risk in transacting. And this is largely driven by, uh, business law. Uh, but it's something that just, it's the, what you're supposed to do, right? Uh, but the thing is when you actually get lawyers involved, it often destroys relationships. Uh, and relationship is the thing that actually makes the world go round. And so if you can, so figuratively speaking, if you've got people on the opposite side of a table, each seeking to maximize their own advantage, that system produces far, far poorer results than the one where you can actually sit next to each other on the same side of the table, both look at what it is that you're trying to achieve, and figure out how you can add the most value for each other. Um, uh, that that's a little bit, um, poetic, but the implications of the way that a company structures everything it does throughout its supply chain, its employees, everything it does, it's a state shift. And so those are the five sort of business as usual harms that if we flip that around, then I think that's actually how you would create a regenerative form of capitalism. And I know this was a very long answer to the question about, um, you know, what stakeholder capitalism is. And I guess I would offer as definition those five elements for I don't care what we call it. Those are the things that actually make tremendous business sense that also help to flip the harms that we have caused unintentionally often, uh, and actually create the kind of capitalism that we would need to build the world that we know is possible. Oh my goodness, Nathan. Uh, boy, I'm going to be chewing on that. That's like such a nutrient rich. caloric feast of knowledge that like I don't need to eat anything in my brain for the next week and I'm good. Like maybe the next month I just like just those five nuggets you fed me for a week. I'm glad it resonates. You know, we've been working on various articulations of that for five years to try to figure out the right way to put it and try to get it clean. And it's still way too long and way too complicated. But we are continuing to we're continuing to try to figure it out. Yeah, no, that's, um, you know, I, I, I love, sometimes we need right for, for consuming of complex ideas. We need them broken into consumable pieces with little anecdotal pieces and, and things behind them. And it's hard to take so many things that there's so many new things with so many nuances and put them into a couple buckets because nothing fits perfectly squarely inside any one bucket, but. But I, I, I think you've done a beautiful job with that. So very good work after five years of effort. Me and, and a lot of, a lot of other people, a lot of sparring partners and folks trying to figure it out. It's a group effort. I think if, if our listeners want to have, um, stories about what the, the five, the five principles that you just mentioned, they should go and listen to the, your podcast series. Oh, that is called. 10 things you should know about stakeholder capitalism. It's beautifully produced. The stories are really compelling. And you really, it's um, you know, it's when you talk about, um, the, um, racism and legacy. I, you know, there's one episode on that topic, uh, when you talk about, you know, uh, the legal part of it, there's one, uh, there's one episode, one story, because it's beautifully told, stories are beautifully told. And so I really, really encourage our listeners and, and Brian, if you haven't listened to this podcast series, you should really go. And then that will be a very, very long explanation or illustration of the five principles that you've just mentioned. Am I right? That's right. It's based around those. Um, I think that we've sharpened the edges a little bit on exactly what they are and why they're good for business and sort of this notion of the harm that happens in normal business. Um, we, we don't have, anyway. As you say, uh, it, it, it was, it was an earlier attempt at all this kind of stuff. And it is, it is, um, uh, for, for listeners that are looking for actual business cases of, of what this looks like in practice. Um, we, we, we tried to serve those up as best we could in that series. And it's, it's, it's pretty fun, but yeah, the, the 10 things you should know about stakeholder capitalism. Yeah. Because I was, I was listening to this episodes when I was running and, Oh, wow, they can do now. There are people doing this and yes, yeah, that's a great idea. And I think that's, it's a very great companion while you're running or whatever. That's great. Uh, I have not found this podcast series yet, but I am excited to go listen to it. You love it. I'm, I'm definitely gonna love it. And, you know, I want to go back to something you said there, sort of in the beginning where you were sort of talking about this, this, um, third stage or third, um, act of, of capitalism. Right. And I'm in the midst of, um, rereading Thomas Friedman's Hot, Flat and Crowded, a very interesting book from, uh, it was right before the financial crash here in the US. So, um, Uh, six, 15, 16 years old, something like that. Um, crazy stuff. It was that long ago. And it's, it's interesting to get in there and be looking at where Right. So out of that 30 to 40 years, this is a book on these topics from like 15 years ago, like, and, and looking through how they're talking about maybe the same topics and how do we change business and things 15 years ago and, and what needs to happen, all this kind of stuff and see what has changed and sort of like be comparing that with the experience I have today versus what hasn't changed. You know, and things, um, I want to go maybe in sort of, you know, your, your, your experience in storytelling and in sort of, you know, pulling together these complicated nuanced topics, you know, you, you and, and, uh, have done many other beyond, in addition to beyond zero, I almost said beyond, beyond zero, um, you've, you've created all these other sort of interesting, compelling stories, You know, and I think you really get comfortable getting into the weeds and finding, The arc of the story in a way that for the user, and I'll say this, I was, I was watching beyond zero. You mentioned earlier that it was on planes and I was flying on a plane and I saw it. I said, Oh, of course I'm watching this, right? And the person next to me at a couple of times, I'm like sobbing, uh, on the plane while watching this. And the person next to me checked in with me to see if I was okay, if I was emotionally like, are you okay? Like what's going on? You're watching. I don't know what you're watching. I think it's about carpet. Uh, why, why are you crying about carpet? Like tears are pouring off your face. What's going on? Like, are you okay? And, um, but so you tell these like stories that like, I mean, really can pull at the heartstrings in a, in a way. And they're not necessarily about things that are the classic tear jerker kind of things. And so I want to ask you like any, you know, commentary or tips and advice as we, many of us who are listening to this podcast and sort of involved in this carbon collective side of things and the carbon almanac, or like we, we have. Want to go use storytelling power to go help influence other people to Think about and perceive and consider things differently and maybe choose an act differently Any tips and advice and guidance and wisdom to share with us and our listeners. Yeah, um So I guess there's two things on that. Um, and and the first one is, uh, I guess just a belief um personal belief, um, I It Well, I'll share an anecdote. Um, I was a theater major in my undergraduate. Uh, and so I've always, I've always been interested in stories. Um, I'll admit that in the beginning it was cause it was fun to have an audience of people applaud you. Uh, so it's good. It's good for the ego, you know? Uh, but, but I had to take it when I was in college, uh, where we, we got to stage a play. Um, It's called the Laramie Project, and it is a documentary play where a team from New York went to Laramie in the aftermath of Matthew Shepard's murder. And you remember, he's a gay kid that got abducted by some people at a bar, and they tied him to a fence, and he was there and ended up dying. It was a major kind of national flashpoint story, um, in, in the gay rights movement. And so this team from New York comes and they interview people in the town about their various perspectives on this. And then they wrote that into a play and it, it, it, it had been off Broadway. Um, but I went to school in Greeley, Colorado, which is, um, a couple hours south of where, uh, This happened in Laramie, Wyoming, and, uh, we decided to stage that play in Greeley. Um, uh, and it was, it was at the time, it's the closest the play had ever been staged to Laramie. And, and Greeley, uh, just to say, uh, you know, the, the, uh, was represented by Congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave at the time, and she won on the platform of banning gay marriage in the U. S. Constitution. And so that's the kind of place that Greeley is and, uh, so we, we staged the play, uh, you know, we've seasoned ticket holders, uh, that are, you know, generally, um, older folks. Um, so I will sort of let you infer what that looks like, uh, in a, in a big theater, uh, with a play as avant garde as, uh, uh, as the Laramie Project is, and, uh, there's a guy, um, I think his name is John Bromley, who was, uh, he was, he was the sort of the biggest patron of the theater. He was a, uh, a guy that, uh, um, was a columnist in the, in the local paper. And he would always give a review of the, of the plays, but he's also a staunch, you know, Republican. Uh, and, uh, um, I remember reading the column that he wrote after that play was Um, and, uh, he, uh, said something like he was there to, um, Sort of grudgingly see the show had really questioned the wisdom of putting a play like this on But he found that by the end of that by the end of the show his opinion on the whole topic had been changed Dramatically Wow, and he was a smart guy He was a guy that had read all the literature on both sides had read the arguments for and against all that kind of stuff But it was a narrative Um, and the, the human experience of sitting through a narrative, being able to see the, uh, the motivations, the experience, all that, of, of different folks, um, that, that is the, that was for him, the access to behavior change. Um, and, uh, I think I learned something there is that there, there is something that is baked into our evolutionary DNA, uh, that, that has always been so. all the way from telling stories around a campfire that that there is something about humanity that is hardwired to learn through narrative and to access parts of ourselves through narrative that are just not possible, uh, through logical argument or through presenting data and facts and evidence and even business cases. Um, and so there's just something there that I think matters. And so for me, um, you know, I'm a little bit of a one trick pony, uh, that, that, you know, If that's so and I believe it is, um, and if business, uh, needs to transform for us to be able to, you know, realize the world that we wish is possible, well then shit, uh, there's only one thing to do. Um, and it's to find these stories. And so the second point and the advice is, um, that I think there's only one story that matters right now. Um, there's a bold thing to say, but it's the only story that I'm interested in doing now. And it's a story that goes like this, um, business person. or person, uh, realizes their complicity in something that they cannot abide, right? So Ray Anderson wakes up to, uh, the decline of all life support systems on earth, recognizes that the amazing company that was his vision in life's work is absolutely complicit in all of the reasons that that is happening. And they decide That they can't go on unless they tackle it. Uh, they begin not knowing at all how to proceed. There is no roadmap. There is no possibility. There's, it is literally impossible and they decide to take it on anyway. And they go through all kinds of shit. That lots of obstacles, lots of missteps, they, they continue to find a way and maybe they see it in their lifetime, but maybe they don't and that doesn't matter. They're going to try to make it possible to get out of complicity with the problem, not just for themselves or their company, but to make it possible for us. To get out of complicity with the problem to actually solve the problem, right? And, and I would assert that business is, uh, the best, uh, most powerful way to do that right now. And so for me, um, that's the story that I want to find and I want to tell, um, in all the industries, in all the problems. Um, and I think it is the thing that business leaders right now need to look at, find the thing that bugs them the most, find the thing Of which they're already complicit that they're like, I just can't abide that anymore. And I'm going to go get serious about solving it. And I'm going to bring my company's resources to bear to do it. That is the story. Uh, that is, I think the pathway, uh, for us all to, um, transform the harms into benefits and get where we need to get. Um, and so, uh, for anybody else that's interested in telling stories out there, my advice would be, that's the story and go tell that or live it, create it. In your own company. Great answer. And I, I personally also very much ascribed to that idea that there's just, I think we need absolutely to pay attention to facts and science and research and the details and not allow them to be distorted or to be maligned. Like that is extremely important. But when it comes to helping them. You checked all the facts you agree with all the science like it points in one direction and then you want to help convey it fully agree as well that the narrative version of it just helps people access and understand what you're telling them in a way that helps them feel differently about the world and see the world through a different lens that you've helped paint for them. And I, I, you know, my experience has been, um, you know, there's some folks that want to talk about the interface case. Uh, And they think they know it. Um, and so they don't feel, they don't watch beyond zero. Uh, they just want to kind of talk about it. And, and those conversations are, um, they suck. But, uh, you know, once somebody has kind of experienced the story. Uh, and this is true for lots of other things, not just Beyond Zero, uh, but you know, it's like, probably not the same thing as if you, you know, you're connecting with somebody over the new thing that you just binged and you're like, Oh my God, can you believe, you know, people that might understand it, they might know what it's about, but if they haven't seen it, they haven't had the experience of, you know, of, of experiencing the story. It's a totally different thing. Uh, and so, so yeah, I mean, I, I think that there, there just is something, um, that provides. a different kind of access. Um, yeah, when you've had the shared experience. And so again, you know, the CEO seeing it, uh, and then trying to go and do something is, is, is better than nothing for sure. But I think that the sort of, um, uh, humble, um, let's watch this together and then let's get into a conversation together about what this means, what it means for us, uh, what, You know, what you think your path might need to be, uh, you know, what is the thing that is that complicity that you can't abide anymore? Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's a really good place for people to look. And so Nathan, I want to take that and actually go back to a question I asked earlier where I, you know, I asked about how do people access this video and use it and watch it in their company, that stuff. And the, the reason I asked that and, and the logistics around it for our listeners was. It was what you just said, it was having experienced watching this movie with co workers and then talking about it, engaging with it and letting the, the powerful narrative that is Beyond Zero engage them in a way that I couldn't present the same thing the way how beautifully you did. But then I get the. Benefit of getting to engage with them and discuss things after they've done that we were just we had a sort of a, an in office staff lunch earlier this week and I was chatting with a few team members who I hadn't yet bumped into and sat down and broken bread with about. When they watched it a few months ago and, and even still two months later, it's like their reactions are strong, right? Like there's still, it's still resonating with full, you know, full vibrancy. Um, so great. Um, so I hope our listeners go engage in this. Process because it is, there is that power of that narrative that then, then you can build off of. Totally. Well, and, and if I may, let me just say, uh, you know, uh, in April, uh, we, we had a total coup and it went up on, uh, Delta, United, Emirates, KLM, and JetBlue. Um, and, uh, now we're here on August 2nd, uh, and, uh, it's now off of Delta, uh, cause they only had it for a couple months. Um, I'm not totally clear on the status of others, and we've also been reaching out to other airlines to try to make that happen, uh, but that's the only place it's available. You know, we're happy to book corporate screenings. That is the revenue model for us, uh, you know, it helps to fund the ongoing work in Beyond Zero and start to capitalize some of the other. Films, the other stories that are out there that we've been working on. Um, but we haven't been able to find a home for this movie yet on any mainstream streaming platform. Um, and not for lack of effort. Yeah. Um, and so it's, it's this, this interesting thing where what I've been told from, from sort of the, the. I'll say Hollywood film set, um, is that it's a really weird movie because it's a positive story about one company and what, what that is in the film world is called a commercial, right? Yeah, sure. And so we're like, I get some really good movie. Can we, I don't think we can put this on our platforms. And so it's like this, this, this notion in popular, um, Derek Uhhuh, business is not the hero of business, is the villain. Uhhuh, right? And so like, it's this miscast thing. Uh, and so it is this thing that we're, we're sort of, this is part of the swimming upstream in the cultural narrative. Is there, there is this different approach to it all. Uh, but right now it's, it's a very, very narrow slice of innovators that, that can even hear this conversation. Everybody needs to put this into wait, nonprofit, right. Or a corporate philanthropy, right. Or. There just isn't a conversation for what it is that we're trying to talk about. And so the amount of repetition and education and, and, and having people sort of see what I guess some of these innovators are starting to see about this method of change making in the world. Um, it, it's, it's. We're not even close to where we need to be. And I would love it. I would love it if this thing were on Netflix or on Amazon or, you know, we, if it had its own category of kinds of films like this, that it's the own category, right? Inspirational business, business change stories, right? We've had to resign to we're defining a niche here. Yeah. Um, and so, okay, so we'll just, you know, we built this distribution thing sort of by accident because we didn't know what we didn't know. Um, and now, you know, yeah, there are more movies coming down the pike and there's more stories that are out there, but you know, the other thing that listeners could do if they were, um, is, uh, you know, there are request buttons on a lot of the major, uh, The major content platforms. And so if you have seen it, or if you'd like to see it, uh, you know, tell Netflix that you'd really love for beyond zero to get added to their library. And we think that if enough of those requests come in, um, it may well, uh, it may well give us access and, and, uh, it would, it would be just a phenomenal thing to be able to do it. And I think that like, you know, why don't we just put it on YouTube for five bucks? We might. We might at some point, uh, but, um, there is something with sort of reaching, uh, business executives, uh, where if they feel like there's something that's sort of special and exclusive just for them, uh, they pay more attention to it than if it's, you know, some run of the mill thing that's out there. And so, you know, one of the cool opportunities that that strategy has yielded and it's yielded many, uh, but at New York climate week this year, um, uh, we have, uh, I don't know if I can actually say this publicly, I'll just say that, um, there is a very, um, private. Screening with a very important business organization globally, uh, that has, uh, made it available for, um, some of their, um, uh, very large executives, uh, that are going to get to be there. So they're at the UN doing that, doing climate week, um, and then they will, uh, they will take a break, um, and they will together in a screening room, uh, experience beyond zero. And I don't think that, that, happens, uh, if we hadn't done the strategy we've done and I might be wrong. Um, so we're kind of making it up as we go along, but, but, you know, uh, it has not been easy, uh, to get beyond zero where it has gotten, uh, but I do believe and sort of trust that. know, the journey is the value in this whole thing. Um, and you know, that's how, that's how we met, uh, was, uh, was doing, was, was doing a screening like this where you just sort of see the opportunities as they come and take them. Um, and, uh, it is very much not. The way things are usually done. And I think that's part of the magic. I think that is well in, in the effort to help create optionality for you, maybe you choose to stay with the discovered methodology of distribution you've done, because maybe there's magic in the new version, but to help create optionality, I think we'll, I just found the link for, you know, requesting on Netflix and we can go find the prime and the other versions of this and drop them in our show notes. So listeners can go put in the request for beyond zero on those platforms. Um, and then, and then you get the choice of whether you want to do that or not. But, but, uh, but we can help try to create some optionality. Totally. And I guess that, um, the 30th anniversary of that speech, right. Oh, October 31st, 1994. That's the end of this month, 30 years since Ray Anderson laid down the gauntlet for interface. And, um, Uh, at the end of his life, he was really, really disappointed with the amount of progress that had been made around the world. Um, and I think, frankly, he still would be. Um, but, uh, it's a curve. I don't think it's linear. Um, I think that it's accelerating. Um, is it accelerating fast enough? I don't know. Uh, but I definitely feel some time pressure on this too. And so, um, you know, it, it is not, it is not going to be long, uh, before we need to, uh, Remove all the barriers, uh, and let, let beyond zero out. Um, cause we've been able to recoup our costs. Uh, we've been able to get some investment dollars to create a curriculum around it. Uh, you know, to, to really develop some of this stuff that we think can have it help make its full impact. Um, but I, I, I lose a little sleep frankly about, um, do I need to just. Let it go. But if we had like a Netflix or a or a Amazon or something that we'd let it go with some profile That would make it. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I I'm reading this book right now I know I'm looking at all these stats there in this book from you know, 2007 2008 and Projections and I'm like, oh We missed it like it's like problematic where we are versus where we thought we would be, you know, yeah, it's an interesting process to go through that kind of reflective thing 15 years later. Um, you know, this has been amazing so much. Wonderful stuff here. I, I might turn it back to David, like any other you've shared so much wisdom, but any other, like just words of wisdom or guidance or thoughtfulness for, for our listeners here. I think the, the last thing, um, might be that, um, we don't know what we're doing. And that can't stop us. Uh, and so whether you're a CEO or you're a change leader trying to make it happen in your company, um, doing something is better than nothing. Um, and, and so it's just a matter of, uh, we're not going to get it right out the gate, uh, but, uh, you can get it better, but you can only do that if you start and so, uh, for those that are out there, keep doing it. Uh, and if you, uh, think you want to start something, um, get into good trouble and get going. Yeah. I'm going to add, I'm going to append a little piece onto that, which is, so as someone who, you know, oversees and manages employees and groups and operations and things, one of the other really influential things, it's much like this requesting a film from Netflix thing that we just talked about a second ago. Like if you are not one of those leaders overseeing a whole bunch of people or a CEO of a company or whatever, you're not that, but you're anywhere else in the ecosystem and the organization. Go ask for this, go push for this, go advocate for this, because maybe there's leaders who are sitting there who would willingly and lovingly and wantingly do this, or maybe they need a good narrative to help push them over the edge or help them come to the conclusion. But you helping bring it up and surface it and have value in it, right, is itself part of that process of how they start to get closer to that comfort of making that action or making the decision differently. It's, it's leadership from every level. Yes. And it takes leadership from every level. You know, what, one of the great misunderstandings of interface is that it's, it's the Ray Anderson story. Yeah. It is not. It's not. Ray Anderson story. It is. It is a thousand people within interface. All, you know, the, one of the quotes was, um, you know, a thousand small steps, uh, creates the, the big leaps. Yeah. Um, and that's the only thing that creates the big leaps. And so the small step that you can see to take is the one to take. Yeah, completely. Yeah. This lunch we were having earlier this week, we were talking about this, that exactly that it's not the Ray Anderson story. It's actually the story of all these employees of interface. And some of the best innovations came from people at all these other levels that were not in the C suite, not in the leadership, not even in management. Totally. And, and as we were at lunch talking about some of our company's best innovations and moves and progress things, I was recounting who helped spark those ideas. And none of they weren't my leaders. They weren't me, right? It was coming from all of our other team members. Because that really is where the brilliance option comes from. So, uh, Nathan, again, thank you so much for this time for your dedication to not only, you know, we talked a lot about beyond zero, but to, you know, making films that matter, right? Like to your tagline and in the larger AV pro sort of ecosystem and like doing things that like succeed in making an impact. So thank you for your dedication and effort and all the fronts and sharing some of that time and wisdom with us. My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for the, for the platform and, uh, and for the conversation. Thank you. Yeah. Bye. Thank you. You've been listening to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon conversations for every day with everyone from everywhere in the world. We'd love you to join the Carbon Sessions so you too can share your perspectives from wherever you are. This is a great way for our community to learn from your ideas and experiences, connect, and take action. If you want to add your voice to the conversation, go to thecarbonalmanac. org slash podcasts and sign up to be part of a future episode. This podcast is also part of the Carbon Almanac Network. 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