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Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin and I'm here with...
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Sandy Heiser. Sandy, what's new in your world? Oh man, we just got back from
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spring break. It was lovely. What about this warm weather we're having? Yeah, I
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see it here and I was starting to look like, oh it's not gonna be nice, and then
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it ended being like the nicest week ever. Yeah, we went down to Mexico and came
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back and Colorado was hotter than it was in Mexico. Crazy. I know, and now it's
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just gonna be a race to the finish. It is. The downhill slide. And if
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you're like me, I begin to live more so in next year than the current year and
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that really messes with me. Yeah, totally. It's such a great time to plan for next
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year already. Lots of planning conversations. Yes. Today we have Joellen
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Killian joining us in the podcast. Joellen is an internationally recognized
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expert in professional learning and educator effectiveness with decades of
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experience in education. She has dedicated her career to improving
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teaching quality and student outcomes through high-impacted professional
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development. Joellen is a former senior advisor at Learning Forward where she
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helped shape global standards for professional learning and she has worked
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extensively with schools, districts, and policymakers to implement systems that
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support continuous educator growth. A prophylactic author and thought leader,
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her work focuses on ensuring that professional learning leads to
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measurable improvements in both teaching practice and student success. Welcome
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Joellen. Well, Joellen, we'd love to welcome you to C3. A lot of our listeners
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are familiar with your work and have been following you for a long time. Can
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you just catch us up and tell us a bit about your background? Well, I have been
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in this field for a very long time, maybe even longer than many of your
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listeners are old. I began as a teacher. I think I started teaching at five when I
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played school all the time. But following my years of teaching, I was a district
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and school administrator. I found that work rewarding. Usually I focused on
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curriculum and instruction. I moved into professional learning because curriculum
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and instruction is really nothing more than professional learning, building
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people's skills and expertise and knowledge around the disciplines they're
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teaching. And then I realized that a lot of the work that was going on in
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professional learning just sort of stopped at the end of the events. There
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was not much more. And that's when I started shifting into recognizing the
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importance of classroom-based support, help people take their learning and put
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it into practice. And so coaching became a part of the work I was doing. Even
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though I started coaching when I was teaching, I was a peer coach for many,
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many years, mentor to a lot of teachers. But I found that my real niche lately in
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helping district administrators, school administrators, and coaches get on the
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same page in terms of what they wanted to achieve, what they called success, how
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they work together to complement each other's work. And that's where I've been
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spending a good deal of my time in the last maybe 10 years or so.
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Well, you've long advocated for the importance of coaching as a form of job
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embedded professional learning. How do you define the coach's role in building
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collective efficacy across either a school or a district?
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Well, as you both know, my colleague Cindy Harrison and I defined the 10 roles
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of coaches. And we did that because we realized that coaches were one trying to
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do everything and anything for everybody. And so we wanted to try to categorize a
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bit what those little pockets of work looked like as a way of helping people
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prioritize what coaches would do in a way that would align with the school
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goals and district priorities. So we recognize that perhaps the most
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important role a teacher or a coach plays is supporting a teacher in the
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classroom, implement the best high quality instructional strategies to
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promote student learning. That's kind of for me the, I think, linchpin role of
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coaches. Although I do find that there are some coaches in some school systems
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who do very little of that. They spend a good deal of their time mentoring.
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They work exclusively with new teachers, for example. Many of them serve as
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facilitators of PLCs, and they spend their whole day facilitating PLC meetings
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with little classroom-based support. They spend a lot of time planning
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instruction and assessment and intervention and doing data work with
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teachers. So as we think about those 10 roles, what we encourage districts to do
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is to look at what the primary purpose and goal of coaching is in that school
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system and then choose from the 10 roles the roles that would be prioritized to
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support that work. Let me give you a quick example. One of the districts I'm
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working in right now has really prioritized literacy learning and are
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implementing a new literacy program. So while I recognize that role, such as
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school leader or mentor, might be important, what is really important is
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that coaches are learning facilitators, helping teachers in their schools learn
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about the new literacy program. Classroom supporters going into classrooms and
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helping teachers address challenges, problems, or learn how to implement the
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new program, and also to be working with data so they can monitor and progress
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monitor how students are progressing with the new literacy program so they
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can make adaptations in instruction. So when we know what the overarching
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purpose and goal of coaching is in our school or district, then we can choose
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which roles to prioritize. That doesn't necessarily keep a coach from doing
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some other related roles, but it certainly helps a coach know where to spend the
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majority amount of their time and effort in supporting teacher and teacher growth
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in order to achieve student growth. I just love that because, you know, when
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coaching, when it's not successful in a school, I bet it always comes back to
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something along the lines of, is there a match of the need to the school and has
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there been intentionality to really match the coaching need with those 10
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roles to what to the culture of the school and what the school needs and, you
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know, has that been thought out or hasn't it? So I love that. It's so important.
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Yeah, it's really important for the coach to know that because if you're assessing
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your impact, if you're not clear on what your role is, it's really hard because
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you're going to have a lot of scattered data of what you're spending your time
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doing versus when the administration is really clear, the school has a goal and
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you're working towards that. It's very easy to see those through lines of impact.
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Exactly, exactly. Alignment, coherence, through lines, those are words that really
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resonate with me. In your view, what distinguishes transformational coaching
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from other forms of professional development and how can schools ensure it
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leads to lasting instructional change? You know, I think we were just talking
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about that. It's the kind of coaching that changes people's minds as well as
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their behaviors. I think a lot of coaching has focused on behavior without sufficient
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attention to that mindset. That's so important to sustain those instructional changes.
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When coaches are helping teachers, for example, they might be modeling a new strategy related,
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for example, to one of the math practices. Teachers can pick up those strategies,
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they can implement those strategies, they can replicate or imitate. However, if the mindset
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associated with those practices is not altered, meaning do we truly believe that students are
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capable, that productive struggle is a good thing, that finding the learning pit and resting
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in it a while is healthy, that students can be responsible learners, that failure
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is a way to support learning. Some of those mindset issues, then we won't find instructional
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coaching being transformational. I think coaches struggle with that partly because
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they are good teachers and they are selected, hired to become coaches because they were
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often master teachers. They have a hard time losing that identity of teacher,
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meaning they have a hard time letting people fail. They have a hard time giving up,
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telling people how to do things and what to do. They have a hard time stepping out of the role
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and letting the teacher take the forefront because they're teachers. Transformational
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coaching requires coaches to be coaches, not extra teachers. That transition is a difficult one.
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Honestly, I have worked with teachers who've become coaches who cannot give up being teachers.
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They're always serving as consultants and hardly ever as coaches. That, I think,
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has an effect on the integrity of a coaching program. Unless the coaching program has as its
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defined goal that coaches will be consultants and there are some that have defined that as their
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ultimate purpose. Well, you kind of transitioned a little bit into our next question, which is
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just speaking of mindset shifts. You're talking about coaches making that mindset shift,
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but maybe are there other shifts you can think of that coaches or leaders need to
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make to ensure that coaching is truly collaborative and growth-oriented?
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One of the ones that I think is important is the shift for leaders to see coaches not as
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fixers or rescuers. That's a really hard one, I think, for coaches sometimes to let go of,
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but it's also very hard for leaders to let go of. As a result, leaders look at coaches
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as the person who can fix the problems with instruction. They sometimes do it in roundabout
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ways, but a really good experience I had, I think, tells this story very well. I was in a room of
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principals and coaches sitting side by side, and I asked them to point their fingers at the
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instructional leaders in their school. Everyone in the room, almost everyone, pointed their fingers
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at the coaches. Principals abdicated and do abdicate. I don't think it's a malicious kind
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of thing. I don't think they even think about the consequence of it because they are so overwhelmed
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with so much compliance management things these days that they rest easy knowing they have a
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competent instructional leader in their coach, and so they defer to the coach. That's a mindset
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that needs to shift, and it's a mindset that needs to shift both for the coach as well as
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for the leaders. If coaches believe they're responsible for high-quality instruction and
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perceive themselves as the people whose job it is to fix instruction, then we're going to have
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systems that are going to probably not grow at the rate we want them to grow. That's another
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mindset, the one about really believing deeply in the power of reflection and the power of
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reflective conversations, and coaches being patient enough to allow reflection to happen
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rather than jumping in too quickly to fix problems. That's a big one for me and one
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I think that really needs attention. I think there's probably others,
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but those would be the two big ones I'd put on the table for people to consider.
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Yeah, we move so quick in education. You feel like there's such an urgency
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to a lot of things that are happening in schools, and it's easy to fall into that trap of like,
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I've got to put the fire out, but I had an assistant superintendent I got to work closely
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with, and he'd always say like, there's no emergencies, like to step back.
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So many think we do have emergencies.
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We do. Our students are our emergencies. However, if we're not thoughtful and intentional
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with our practice to address whatever learning needs our students have, we can be wasting time
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by doing things over and over and over again, and if we were to approach our work
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with that thoughtfulness, that intentionality, deliberate planning, deliberate degrees of
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practice to ensure students get to a point of being independent wherever our standards expect
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them to be, it's that kind of forward thinking, and we do hold the mindset. I'm the last best
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opportunity these students have. I know so many teachers who hold that mindset.
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Yeah, there's a lot of pressure there.
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Yeah, there is. There is.
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As districts face increasing demands on time and resources, what are some of the
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non-negotiables for launching and sustaining an effective coaching program that truly impacts
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the teaching and the learning? Well, I have talked about this in Coaching Matters with my colleagues
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Chris Bryan, Heather Clifton, and with Cindy in the first edition, and then with Chris and Heather
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in the second. We outlined a framework that we think is really essential and non-negotiable,
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and the first element of that framework is to know the purpose of coaching, to know the goals
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that are expected from coaching, and to define what coaching is in our context. I think it's
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not a smart idea for people to just grab onto a school of coaching and use it without some
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careful attention to what is it we want to accomplish here in our district and then in
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each of our schools. It starts at the top. So, those are the first components of the framework,
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and then we are very thoughtful about choosing the roles that will be essential
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to support those goals, whatever that goal is, whatever that definition is, to begin to think
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about which roles are priority roles and use those roles to create a job description,
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and from the job description, we then hire people who not necessarily have the skills yet, but who
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have the mindset that we would associate with a coach, and this is a place, I think, to be
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thoughtful about recognizing that some teachers can never give up being teachers and may not be
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good coaches. So, we hire with that mindset in place and know that it's necessary to develop
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the competencies of being an effective coach in the roles we've defined to align with the goals
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we've established. Then, we place them. We make sure that we have a system of monitoring their
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work, monitoring the kind of work they're doing, the quality of work they're doing.
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We evaluate the coach, and we evaluate coaching, and we have systems to do both of those things.
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Coaches, that whole system of performance evaluation, we can't evaluate a coach on a
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using teacher standards. We need standards for coaches that are aligned with their roles,
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that are aligned with the goals, and to evaluate them, performance, goals, and that whole system,
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but we also are looking at coaching and measuring the effectiveness of coaching, and that's a
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much broader process, and we do that on an ongoing basis so that we are continuously upgrading
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coaches' skills, competencies. We're upgrading the program so that it's keeping up with what we
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wanted to accomplish, and we have a system of intervening when there are challenges. So, if
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a coach and a principal are not on the same page, we make sure that we have a system to intervene,
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to do some negotiation, or facilitation, or conflict management, if that's the case,
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or we need to do some skill development of teachers or principals around how to make the
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most of coaching that needs to be built in. So, those are some of the key features of that framework.
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Too often, in too many schools, people have hired coaches and thrown them into schools,
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and then said a year or two or three later, hmm, I wonder why we're not seeing the results we expected.
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Well, when I ask about those results, they're all over the board, nobody to find them. Coaches are
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doing what they think is best, and from coach to coach and school to school, what they're doing
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that they think is best is not aligned. So, the equity of opportunity for coaching is very erratic.
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So, those pieces, that framework was missing, and I would say what's non-negotiable
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is a really strong framework. You are so right. I've seen the scenario that you're talking about,
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where it doesn't go well, and the coach, another thing, it seems like absent direction or a
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framework, the coach then goes and finds the willing, which those are people who are interested
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in learning and working with the coach, and then where's the systemic approach, where's the equity
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that you talked about? Yeah, yeah. I find one of the key pieces of the equity of coaching,
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equity of access to coaching, equity of opportunity, is leaders, whether they're district
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leaders or school leaders or both, being crystal clear about the expectations related to participating
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in coaching, and that goes all the way back up to defining coaching and establishing the goals
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of coaching and making it clear at those early stages, whether coaching is for new teachers,
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coaching is for teachers who are struggling, coaching is for everyone, we want to be crystal
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clear, and my friend, colleague, Jim Knight and I will often tussle back and forth about
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whether coaching is mandatory or voluntary, and of course, Jim believes that it is important,
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it's important for teachers to have a choice, they have a choice about the kind of support
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they receive, I land on it this way, if your board has adopted a mathematics or science or literacy
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or BE set of standards and program, it's not optional, it's not optional whether I as a
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classroom teacher teach those standards or use that program, and I think the same thing is true
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with coaching, everyone has an opportunity to learn and grow, not necessarily in the exact same
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way, but I should have an expectation of engaging with the coach minimally a certain number of times
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a year in ways that contribute to the school's goals as well as my own professional goals.
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Yeah, well, Joellen, someone with your breadth and depth of experience, we are wondering how
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is your thinking about instructional coaching evolved over the years, especially as we consider
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the growing influence of AI, personalization, and the changing expectations for teachers?
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Yeah, it has changed dramatically, and it's still changing. I, surprisingly, a district I've been
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working with went from subject-specific coaches to instructional coaches and other back to
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subject-specific coaches, and so, you know, we're still doing the revolving door kind of thing.
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Coaching began a long time ago, back in the early 80s. I was coaching at the end of the 70s
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in a program that was really focused on building teacher capacity. My principal wanted me to fix
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the broken teachers back then, but what we recognized is that when we were in the early 80s,
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is that when teachers were in each other's classrooms, that peer coaching model,
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that we could see a culture shift in our schools, and so my introduction to coaching started with
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fix the broken teachers, then into organizing, managing, and participating in peer coaching,
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then shifting into a more coaching as a means for induction and mentoring,
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to a subject-specific kind of coaching that was related to a new curricular program,
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and I think there are many, many school systems and even states today that sit with that
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kind of coaching. We also see a lot of general instructional coaching still occurring,
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recognizing that good teaching is made up of a set of practices and principles,
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and it does not matter what the discipline is. We adapt those practices to align with the standards,
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but any good coach can coach engagement, for example, or student responsibility,
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or building assessment, student-centered assessment practices in virtually any discipline.
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Let the teacher be the discipline expert, but I think our evolution today, sadly,
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where I'm seeing it is a budget-driven issue. We're seeing a lot of programs across the country
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where coaching is now dependent on budgetary issues. It's coaches' positions are being cut
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because budgets are being cut, and I think that is a really sad movement. I understand it,
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keeping teachers in place and keeping class sizes reasonable. However, it is that support
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that teachers are receiving through that job embedded at the elbow personalized to what's
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going on in my classroom with my students and my needs that helps us keep teachers engaged,
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keeps them motivated, keeps their level of effort and energy, level of engagement high,
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so that we are able to retain the best of the best teachers. So, I'd say coaching in general
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is all over the place. I've seen it in all kinds of different structures. I want to just emphasize that
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there needs to be a set of clear purposes, goals, and a definition that operationalize coaching
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within a school system so that it is contributing to the needs and the priorities
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of that school system. Otherwise, I think it's really hard to justify the investment
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in coaching, and we know that investment is a substantial one.
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Yeah, we're fortunate in St. Vrain that we have a really clear vision of coaching,
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and my supervisor, David Baker, is a big fan of your work, and I'm hearing a lot of things that
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you're saying that align with the way our team works. But, you know, we all believe in the power
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of coaching and that it's a wonderful support for teachers, but it has to be intentional and
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it should be really clear that everyone is on the same page with it.
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And we have to know it's making a difference for students. If we don't know that, and, you know,
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I stress that so often, we can have teachers who are just gushing over having coaches' support
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and just so grateful for their coach, but if we're not seeing practices change in classrooms,
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we're not seeing opportunities for students to learn change and positive effects in student
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learning, then we have a mismatch somewhere. And sometimes that means that teachers are not going
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to be as excited because there's going to be some dissonance that created, and maybe that's another
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mindset thing I could have talked about earlier. We all need to understand that dissonance,
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discomfort, is the space for growth. And so I want teachers to say they're being pushed hard
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by their coach. They're really being called to question about their decisions. They want
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teachers to say that their coach makes them uncomfortable. I want that. And if coaches
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are always working to keep harmony and peace and that level of comfort, we know what we call that.
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We call it coaching light, and it's not going to affect student learning.
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Definitely. So true.
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We're going to move into our rapid fire portion. So in about 30 seconds or less,
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what's one strategy every coach should have in their back pocket?
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An easy peasy thing for me to answer, 10 seconds, listening.
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If you had 60 seconds with a new teacher, what's one thing you'd tell them?
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I wouldn't tell them anything. I would ask what they want. What do they want
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from their student, and how will they get there?
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I love it. Leading with those coaching questions, as always, bringing us back to the importance of
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asking as a coach. But we appreciate your time today and all the knowledge you shared with us.
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I think we could spend all day talking about coaching.
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I could indeed, with you, because you know what good coaching is, and you are so fortunate to work
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in a school system that is so grounded in all of that framework is in place in St. Grain. And I'm
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grateful to the work that you all have done to make that happen. You really do stand out
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as a school system that supports coaching. But I want to call to question, not to question, but to
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call up one of the school districts here in Texas, Katy Independent School District. Every year,
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they adopt a theme for their coaches. And this year, their theme is empower over enable.
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And it's the theme that has really struck a chord with me, and it did with the coaches as well,
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because the coaches are realizing that they spend a good deal of time enabling unintentionally.
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But from that rescuer perspective, and when they recognize the importance of empowering
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over enabling, I think that can be transformational for teachers and students.
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How neat. I love that theme.
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David, if you're listening, we're going to start having a yearly coaching theme.
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Exactly.
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It's a good one. And it's one that I think will resonate with many, many coaches and teachers
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as well, because it honors teachers' capacity. It honors their expertise and encourages coaches
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to really extend that expertise. How can we learn more from you and with you?
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You can always reach out to me. Personally, I welcome people to just send me an email,
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jpkillion, k-i-l-l-i-o-n, at mac.com or gmail.com. I love getting those inquiries,
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those questions from people. I'm happy to answer questions, although you can be sure that before
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I answer a question, I will have many questions I want answered first.
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Absolutely. We would expect nothing less.
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Well, thank you so much for taking the time with us today.
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Thank you. I'm honored to have the opportunity to talk coaching with you.
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It was an honor for us to talk to Joellen about coaching. She reminds us about the power of
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coaching and how important it is for educators. But it's also important that we have a clear
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understanding of the role and our coaching system. What's your coaching system? Are you clear on your
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impact? Thanks for listening to another episode of C3. Be sure to follow us on social media.
