WEBVTT
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.039
Welcome back to Brain Chatter, where we listen past the daily noise and explore topics at the intersection of leadership, workplace culture, profit, and sustainability.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:11.279
I'm your host, Derek Brown.
00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:16.160
The topic of this episode is effective workplace feedback.
00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:17.519
Today's guest is Dr.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:24.640
Ken Chapman, founder of Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated, sponsor of this podcast, and author of the Leader's Code book.
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:25.120
Dr.
00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:39.679
Chapman has been working as an organizational psychologist, consulting on leadership and management issues and strengthening workplace cultures for over 40 years across four continents and within over 500 company locations.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:40.320
Dr.
00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.600
Chapman, thank you for coming back to record your third episode of Brain Chatter.
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:46.640
Thanks, Derek.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:48.079
I appreciate the opportunity.
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:50.960
I guess it is number three, and I'm glad to be here.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:52.159
Thank you.
00:00:52.479 --> 00:01:00.880
First question: why is it that you dislike and recommend against having annual performance reviews?
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:14.480
That's a great question to begin with because it's the one that usually gets raised eyebrows when I'm talking with an executive or a general manager, because there's this assumption that there must be some accounting.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.920
And the best way to have that accounting, so to speak, is to have an annual review.
00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:26.000
It's not so much that I think that annual reviews are useless.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:31.359
It's that too often they replace something that is more valuable.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:37.760
And that the thing that is more valuable is that people get feedback every day.
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.400
If someone does something exceptional, they should know that day.
00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.640
If they fail to meet an expectation, they should know that day.
00:01:47.040 --> 00:02:08.800
When I say that I dislike annual reviews, what I really intend to do is to get people's attention and to make sure they understand that an annual review is relatively worthless if during the year you have not been providing daily systematic feedback when it was expected or required.
00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:09.759
Thank you, Dr.
00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:10.400
Chapman.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:11.680
That makes sense to me.
00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:18.000
And since I report to you in my own work, I know that you personally encourage feedback.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:27.039
Would you describe the sort of feedback you appreciate when it comes from a direct report, when it comes from a customer, or when it comes from some other source?
00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:28.400
Thanks, Derek.
00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.400
That's another great question.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:36.800
Because the higher up you are in an organization, the more difficult it is to get good feedback.
00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.560
People are reluctant to tell the boss the truth.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:52.719
They're reluctant to be candid because they suspect that, one, it may not be appropriate, or two, that there may be some consequence that's associated with it.
00:02:52.960 --> 00:03:03.039
So one of the most important things that a leader has to do is create an environment in which people are comfortable providing feedback.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:08.560
That means that you have to do things like listen when people are talking to you.
00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:26.879
Also be careful to thank them for the feedback that they provide, and most of all, to be sure that they never face any consequence when they have come to you with candid information, which they hope will be helpful to you andor the organization.
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.080
Feedback is essential.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:37.280
And not too long ago, uh I asked our team at KCNA to provide me with some feedback.
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:46.639
And I suspect that my response and what I discovered is what most uh people in similar positions discover.
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:56.960
You think you have a pretty good idea of what people think and a pretty good idea of where they're coming from in terms of their interaction with you, but there are surprises.
00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:15.199
Uh, for example, uh the KCNA team shared with me several things, but probably the most noteworthy was that uh I tend to move through my day thinking that people have telepathic ability, that they can uh automatically discern what it is that I'm thinking.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.920
And when I thought about it, I realized that that probably is true.
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.439
And I've taken measures to remedy that.
00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:30.800
Another thing that was mentioned was that I needed to be more direct in what I want or don't want.
00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:53.759
And I think that goes back to my emphasis inside our firm that we are a team of peers, that we're a team of colleagues, and my assumption, uh, which is not a good assumption, uh, that uh I don't have to say things directly that people can decipher them from a conversation.
00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.480
Well, sometimes that's okay.
00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:09.040
But when something needs to be done and the direction needs to be clear, then I and all other leaders, supervisors, managers, executives, need to be direct and candid.
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.959
Courteous with people, but to certainly be direct and candid.
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:26.480
Can you describe what the most helpful feedback to you includes in terms of specifics, timing, and how goodwill for mutual interest is expressed within that feedback?
00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:29.600
And goodwill has to be the foundation of it, Derek.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:38.720
Uh the the reality is that you you certainly want to choose the right time and place, which is usually going to be in private, one-to-one.
00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:47.519
And you want to provide the feedback in a uh a timely manner so that people benefit from it as early and as quickly as possible.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:06:07.600
But it's hard to overstate the importance of the goodwill, and that is to making it clear in the tone and the manner in which you offer the feedback, that you intend this as an investment in the person's success and that you want them to benefit, not be harmed by what you're saying.
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.519
So tone of voice and the choice of words certainly matters.
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:32.000
The other thing that I would add about this is that if you're in a leadership role, supervisor, manager, GM, executive, it really is something that goes to your own success to nurture in your direct reports their willingness to give you candid feedback in a timely manner.
00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:40.800
The way that I phrase it to uh organizational leaders is this cultivate the understanding that good news can wait.
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:41.759
That's right.
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:47.920
Cultivate the understanding that good news can wait, but that bad news can't.
00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:50.879
So it works like this.
00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:53.759
Uh good news is always good to hear.
00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.040
It certainly cheers people up, raises morale, certainly strengthens relationships.
00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:10.959
But it's also true that the sooner you know about something that's problematic, the sooner and easier you're going to be able to repair it.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.680
The whole concept of process improvement lends itself here.
00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:27.680
And that is that when a problem arises, the sooner I know about that problem, the easier, not necessarily easy, but the easier it's going to be resolved.
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:34.079
And the longer that problem goes unrecognized, the more difficult it will be to resolve.
00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:44.319
If I've convinced through my interaction with the people who report to me that it's safe to bring me bad news quickly, then they'll bring me bad news quickly.
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:52.240
And that's a much greater investment in my and their success than them bringing me good news and only good news.
00:07:52.560 --> 00:08:00.639
Would you contrast the difference between feedback that is constructive versus not constructive or even destructive?
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:11.199
One of the things that you sense right away when someone is offering you constructive feedback is that, as we mentioned earlier, they have goodwill for you.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.720
And you have the sense that they want to be helpful.
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:27.360
Not only do they want to provide you with information that might prevent you from making a mistake or enable you to grow, but they also go so far as to say, can I help you with this?
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:32.799
Is there something I can offer that will make this feedback more useful to you?
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:41.039
The person who has destructive feedback, there's always a sense that it's a it has a gotcha quality to it.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:48.799
They may have even been holding on to it for the right moment so they can talk about it in front of others in an important meeting.
00:08:49.039 --> 00:09:02.000
The greater the time that passes between when you know that I need to make a correction and when you actually talk to me about it, the less it feels businesslike and the more it feels personal.
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:09.360
If you're holding on to it for a long time, it feels like you're holding on to it so that you can ambush me with it.
00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:21.679
So when people are giving you feedback that is intended to be helpful and constructive, it always has a dimension of goodwill in it and they offer to help.
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:29.039
And when people offer destructive feedback, it almost always has some kind of gotcha quality to it.
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:42.159
You note that consistently, one of the top reasons for an employee's dissatisfaction with their manager or leader is quote, failure to provide constructive feedback.
00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:43.440
Close quote.
00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.600
Let's go to the baseline because that's where it begins.
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.720
All human beings share in common three basic needs.
00:09:52.960 --> 00:10:03.440
All human beings want to be valued, all human beings want to be able to make sense out of the world around them, and all human beings want a sense of purpose or direction for their lives.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:24.720
And the more well-intentioned a person is, and the more focused they are on making a contribution to their people around them, to their organization, to the common good, the core committed they are to making a contribution, the more interested they are in knowing where they stand.
00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:28.720
They want to be able to make sense out of where they are in the organization.
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.080
Am I or am I not meeting expectations?
00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:48.399
Because most well-intentioned people in their minds, and to the benefit of the company, are going somewhere and they want to know if they're going to the right place, if they're on the right path, if they're doing the things that need to be done.
00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.720
And they certainly want to know if they're working hard at things that don't matter.
00:10:52.960 --> 00:11:00.080
The best people welcome feedback because they want to succeed and they want to know where they stand.
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:06.799
Will you discuss the importance and the strategy of building trust as it relates to feedback?
00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:19.120
Let's begin by recognizing that the common perception as to what trust is all about, that the paradigm around that has to be flipped.
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:27.679
And when I say the paradigm has to be flipped, you ask the average person what comes to mind when you hear the word trust.
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.639
And their response is usually something like this.
00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.039
Well, I think about the people I can trust and the people I can't trust.
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:41.200
Well, the place to begin is to think about trust in a very different way.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.919
And that is don't focus on who you can trust.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.200
Focus first on who can trust you.
00:11:49.919 --> 00:12:00.399
Be a good example of a trustworthy person to your colleagues, a good example of a trustworthy person to the people who report to you.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:09.360
And that will establish a pathway, and it will coax them toward a similar set of behaviors.
00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:21.360
A supervisor or manager or executive who injects regular feedback into a workplace environment is likely to find some resistance to it, particularly at first.
00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:25.840
In fact, their team may even find it awkward and likely uncomfortable at first.
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:36.559
Can you address strategies for getting through this phase as smoothly as possible to a point where it becomes more comfortable and certainly much more normalized?
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.320
Well, a great place to begin is to model what you want.
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:51.519
If you want to develop an organization, a team where feedback is normalized, the place to begin is with yourself.
00:12:51.840 --> 00:13:06.159
For the first few weeks, perhaps even for the first few months, always include in your all-hands meetings or your staff meetings, your weekly meetings, always include a time when you ask, what do I need to do?
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.480
What am I not doing?
00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:10.320
Where am I failing you?
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.039
How can I be more supportive of you?
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:17.200
And these questions should be directed at the direct reports.
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:18.960
How can I be helpful to you?
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:20.480
What am I failing to do?
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:27.360
What needs to be done that's not being done from my role and responsibility?
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:39.039
So you begin by emphasizing that you want feedback and only asking for feedback for yourself, and then of course demonstrating that you will use that feedback.
00:13:39.279 --> 00:14:08.559
And then you begin step two with one-on-one conversations with people where you ask them uh for feedback about the relationship you have with them, and then you ask if you can give them feedback, but they'll almost certainly say yes, and you give them something that's usable and understandable, and then you ask them if you can help them with uh the information that you have provided.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.279
Do they need additional resources or support?
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:28.000
So the the basic steps are begin with yourself and then start one-on-one with people giving and receiving and offering to help, and then you can eventually expand it to a general confidence conversation within the team.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:33.200
But you won't get there if you avoid steps one and two.
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:58.480
That is model, demonstrate your willingness to accept feedback and then move on to inviting people to self-critique, to provide feedback back and forth in a one-on-one private conversation where people can get comfortable and used to the idea that this is not about gotcha.
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:04.320
It's not about putting people on the spot, it's about investing in each other's success.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:18.559
For a company that really wants to make feedback a cornerstone, what are the benefits of establishing regular feedback as a normal standard of the workplace environment?
00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.679
Well, it's the ultimate process improvement.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:33.759
And when I say it's the ultimate process improvement, every company uh says at one time or another, and frequently, in fact, our people are our most valuable asset.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:47.279
Well, if my people are my most valuable asset, everything that can be done to enable them to perform at their very best, and the developed pride of association, pride of workmanship should be done.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:57.440
And nothing is more helpful than the investment of consistent, constructive, well-intended feedback.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:04.000
Just like with an individual, when it's not provided, the individual never reaches their potential.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:20.320
So the organization never reaches its potential because it has people who don't know what they need to know and therefore cannot reach the best version of themselves, either personally or professionally.
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.279
Let's look at the other side of that.
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.120
Let's think about an organization, a company where people hear things like this.
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.720
Derek, you need to stay in your own lane.
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:38.080
Or uh, Derek, if we need your opinion, we'll come ask you for it.
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.879
What are the costs of a workplace where feedback is not the standard?
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.639
If you will start with the cost to the individual and then discuss the cost to the organization?
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.720
I like that question a lot.
00:16:50.879 --> 00:17:02.320
Uh uh, because in such organizations where feedback is not normalized, people reach their potential by default, not by design, which means that most people never do.
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:10.559
And of course, therefore, the organization reaches its potential by default, not by design, which means it usually never reaches its potential.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:26.000
The critical thing here is that in an organization where people feel that they can make sense out of things, they feel that they have a sense of purpose and direction and that they're valued.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.680
They give you something called discretionary energy.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:37.119
And discretionary energy is something you can't pay for or buy.
00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:40.559
It's something people must choose to give you.
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:42.720
So, what's discretionary energy?
00:17:42.960 --> 00:18:06.960
Discretionary energy is that employee who feels that they've been given adequate feedback to know where they stand, they have a clear understanding of what it is they're to do, they're recognized for doing it well, and it is clear that their contribution is valued, that person will choose to give you discretionary energy.
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:14.480
Discretionary energy is when I choose to work a few minutes over time and I'm not worried about being paid.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:22.960
When I decide to give extra thought to the project I'm working on, even when I'm at home, even though I'm not being paid for that.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:34.240
And I'm willing to walk down the hall to have a conversation that I might have thought was inconvenient in the past in order to make sure the project is successful.
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:47.200
It's the extra time and energy and resources that a person is willing to give you when they care about the organization because it's clear to them that the organization cares about them.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.279
Whose job is it to solicit feedback?
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:56.720
It's the leader's responsibility to solicit feedback.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:10.079
And in a team of peers, where you have uh a group of uh supervisors that are a team or a group of managers that are a team, a group of executives that are a team, it's everybody's responsibility.
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:15.279
It's essential not to wait for somebody to uh introduce the concept.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:21.839
But if I want to be a part of a high performance team, I want to say to other supervisors, give me feedback.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.920
I want to ask if I can give feedback to other supervisors, the same with managers and executives.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.799
So if I'm the boss, I got to lead the way.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:37.519
If I'm a team of peers, I still got to assume responsibility, take the initiative, offer feedback and ask for it.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:49.359
Sort of putting boots to the ground on this, what is the most practical set of questions that somebody can ask or should ask to solicit constructive feedback from others?
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.960
It's important to be hard on issues and easy on people.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.799
If that sounds a little odd, uh think about your experience.
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:10.160
You've probably had the experience of those instances where the boss was hard on people and easy on the issue.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:21.440
It usually happens something like this: something goes wrong on the production floor, and the boss shows up, and her first question is, who did this?
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.720
Well, that's being hard on the person and easy on the issue.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:41.119
By contrast, when you're hard on the issue and easy on the person, something goes wrong on the production floor, and the boss shows up, and her first question is, well, you know, clearly this is not what we want.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:48.799
So let's walk through the steps that got us to where we don't want to be, and let's figure out where we failed.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.400
Sometimes it's the process, sometimes it's the materials, and sometimes it's a particular team member.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.720
And if that's the case, so be it.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:05.440
But the goal is not to find someone to blame, the goal is to solve the problem.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:31.119
So the most practical questions that I can ask when it comes to soliciting constructed feedback is the kinds of questions that invite people to share what they saw, what they understand, what they think, and to do it in a way that is comfortable for them to say and comfortable for the other person to hear.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:37.759
Would you talk about what place listening and empathy hold in the feedback process?
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.640
Well, Derek, here you've moved into an important issue generationally.
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:49.359
Certainly it's important for Gen X and for boomers, but it's even more important for millennials and Gen Z.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:56.960
And I would phrase it this way every good leader needs to develop this skill.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.759
It is the ability to listen without judgment.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.359
And to gently connect people to reality.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:20.640
And when you can listen without judgment and gently connect people to reality, then you are empathizing in a way that has the greatest positive impact on the performance of the individual and the performance of the team.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:34.960
I make the generational reference because millennials and Z's are particularly sensitive to the idea of being judged by the standards or morays of boomers in particular.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:44.720
They see themselves as living in a new time, a new age, which of course is true, having different perspectives and, of course, different lived experiences.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:23:01.680
So millennials and Gen Zs are very open to the boomer who will listen and not pass judgment, but simply listen and then with an effort to be helpful, make a connection to reality.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:08.480
And it's also true that it can be done in the reverse order.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:14.000
Sometimes boomers, for example, have a great deal of difficulty with technology.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:23.599
And sometimes they express that in frustration that uh seems uh disproportionate to a millennial who grew up with the technology.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:57.920
But if the millennial listens to the boomer without judgment, it takes into account that they grew up in a world without this technology, then that willingness to listen without judgment to the boomer as they rant and rave about the difficulty of using their smartphone, and then the millennial gently points out what facets or aspects of the phone would be helpful for the boomer to know, then real connection can be made there.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:13.279
But the importance of listening without judgment and connecting people to reality can strengthen a workplace, particularly when there is a recognition of the generational dynamics involved.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:21.920
How should a manager deal with a direct report who just absolutely refuses to accept constructive, well-intentioned feedback?
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:30.799
Maybe they do this through constant interruptions when the feedback is provided, or maybe just argumentativeness before even considering the feedback.
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.400
What's your recommendation?
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:46.640
Well, here, Derek, you've you've hit on one of the big challenges to providing feedback, and it's often a roadblock that young and more inexperienced supervisors and managers uh can't get past.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:56.319
And they can't get past it because it uh seems like something that they can't nail down or they can't quite get a handle on.
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:06.880
And the reason they feel like they can't quite get a handle on it is that they're either unaware or they forget something important about organizational governance.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:08.720
And this is what I mean.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:24.640
When I sit down with a team member to offer them feedback at the right time, in the right place, and I'm doing it in a responsible manner, being constructive, making offering the goodwill that it should accompany.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:39.039
When I offer my feedback in the proper way, and they refuse delivery on it and want to be argumentative about it, this is the point where I need to end the conversation.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:45.920
And I need to end the conversation and say something like, I can see this is not really working.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:49.200
We're not really going anywhere helpful.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:56.319
So let's get back together, maybe tomorrow afternoon, same time, same place, and let's continue this conversation.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:10.960
So I'll wait a couple of hours and I go to that uh employee, that team member, one-on-one, and I say, between now and our meeting tomorrow afternoon, uh I want you to keep something in mind.
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:13.599
And this is what I want you to keep in mind.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:27.519
When you come to that conversation, you need to come to that conversation with ideas about how we can work together, about how we can solve the problem we were talking about a little while ago.
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:34.079
Because this is something that you need to know about our relationship.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:43.839
Because you're an employee of this organization, it is an expectation that is non-negotiable that you will cooperate with me.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.359
Cooperation is non-negotiable.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:57.920
So you need to come to the meeting prepared to help me find a solution to the problem we have to solve together.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.599
It is not optional whether or not you cooperate.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.160
That's a condition of employment.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:21.759
And then the next day, uh, when the meeting takes place again, uh, if I need to, I remind the person that cooperation is not negotiable, that we need to find a good path forward for this issue, and then move on.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:30.799
And of course, soon or late, uh every supervisor or manager will have that employee who genuinely doesn't get it.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:40.160
They just simply don't accept the idea that I have to cooperate with the people that I report to, and I don't have to cooperate with the people that I work with.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:53.279
And in that particular instance, there's only one path, and that path is to document conversations and to begin the process of managing the person out of the organization.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:04.720
Because no organization can be governed if everyone in the organization thinks they do not have to cooperate with the people they work with.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:19.519
There was a pretty funny ESPN commercial some years back where these two people are in a car and they're talking, and then one of them discovers uh that the other person is a fan of their arch nemesis football team.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:31.359
And at that moment, the person opens the door, leaps out of the moving car, rolls down a hill, and somehow this was preferable to being in the same car as the person who was a fan of the other team.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.920
So I'll say something I'm sure will surprise you, Dr.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:34.720
Chapman.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:36.880
Sometimes people can be petty.
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:38.480
I'm sure you've never seen that.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:40.960
That is that is news.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:42.640
Go ahead.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:55.440
Maybe someone is a Michigan football fan and they have given feedback to one of their employees that wearing that Ohio State shirt on Fridays needs to stop if they want basic respect in the workplace.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:09.920
How should someone receiving what they perceive as truly petty or irrelevant feedback, maybe even bullying feedback, respond to such feedback apart from just taking another job?
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.319
Well, another great question.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:14.880
And yes, uh, people can be petty.
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:20.240
The interest that many people have in sports, uh, these kinds of things are not unusual.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:30.640
In fact, uh a specific instance comes to mind uh where uh a couple of folks were arguing over a uh uh professional football team.
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.319
One of them was a Steelers fan, and one of them was a Green Bay fan.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.000
Basically, the dynamic was as you described it.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:30:03.759
The uh Pittsburgh uh Steelers fan uh was always telling the Green Bay Packer fan you ought not to wear your uh team uh wear uh in the workplace on Fridays, uh, which was casual day, and uh making some uh joke that was not very tasteful or uh bullying statement about uh Green Bay.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.359
The Green Bay fan handled it quite well.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:12.079
Her initial response was simply to smile and and let let it pass.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:30.000
But after it went on for for several weeks during the the season, the uh Green Bay fan finally turned to the Pittsburgh Steelers fan and said, you know, it's really none of my business what Schwartz team you support.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.440
And he got it.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:54.799
Uh so sometimes uh it's best just to start by trying to ignore it, but uh if necessary, it may be it may be necessary to simply make the point that these are private decisions that everyone has a right to make for themselves.
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.519
And if you can do it in a way as witty as uh she did, then all the better.
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:15.920
Let's say that that I'm a leader and I'm confident that I am providing genuinely constructive feedback, but I find that it is consistently being met with defensiveness or outright rejection, my feedback.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:19.039
How should I, as the leader, address this?
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:42.079
Here again, uh it comes down to the the idea that cooperation is non-negotiable, that that when people are provided feedback that is fact-based, reality-based, intended to enable the person to perform at their best, and that and delivery is refused.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:54.880
And sometimes people refuse delivery on the information that is essential to their success, and they refuse delivery on information that's essential to them being the best version of themselves.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:32:05.119
And when that pattern is clearly established that it's not going to change, that that person has what I call a sign on their forehead.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:09.119
And the sign on their forehead says, I don't belong here.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.480
I don't intend to make a contribution beyond what I absolutely have to.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:23.359
And here again, the supervisor, a manager, the leader will have to make a decision about whether or not this person can remain.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:33.759
Because when people won't accept feedback, it's not just that it impacts their ability to improve because they won't get better.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:46.559
Uh, they won't become an increasingly valuable member of the team, but they will also give others the impression that they do not have to make an effort to become an increasingly valuable member of the team either.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.960
It has a corrupting effect.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:33:02.960
When you think about accountability and constructive feedback, what would you say in your experience has been most effective connecting accountability to constructive feedback?
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:15.920
I mentioned earlier that uh all people share three basic needs: the need to be valued, the need to make sense out of things, uh, the need for a sense of purpose or or direction.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:28.000
And what I've found is that people like and welcome an invitation to live up to their highest opinion of themselves.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:34.720
Everyone has in their mind an idea of their ideal self, what they're like at their best.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:56.000
And when feedback that is constructive appeals to a person's highest opinion of themselves, then you can establish an accountability that's internal to the person, which will, of course, make their accountability to those around them more pronounced and more evident.
00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:14.320
Here again, most people are well-intentioned, and most of the struggles that they have in their personal and professional lives are the deficit or the difference between what they do or say and what the person they actually view themselves as being.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:30.079
Whenever there's a gap between my highest opinion of myself and something that I've done that I think doesn't live up to my highest opinion, then that gets my attention and creates an accountability that nobody else can create except me.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.400
And that person will get better.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:42.239
So appealing to people's highest opinion of themselves is the way to connect accountability to the value of constructive feedback.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:35:00.239
And you see that in something we mentioned earlier, and that is that person who is conscientious, who's a good employee, who wants to know where they stand because they're going somewhere and they want to be successful.
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:00.960
Dr.
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.199
Chapman, my next to last question.
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:13.679
If you were to very concisely summarize the strategy for normalized, regular, constructive feedback in a workplace environment, how would you summarize that?
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:15.440
Well, that's easy, Derek.
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.639
Uh I would say start with this.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.199
First the mirror, then the window.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:29.119
Whenever something goes wrong in your department or your reporting group, look in the mirror first.
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.320
Don't look at the people who report to you, look in the mirror first.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:37.760
And invite others to participate as you look in the mirror first.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:46.960
And then after you have perfected the art of looking in the mirror first, then invite others to do the same.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.360
Uh lead them to do the same.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.960
An example.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:56.559
If I have someone who's not meeting expectations, I shouldn't look at them first.
00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:58.000
I should look at me.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:04.639
And I should ask myself, okay, have I, as the supervisor, made the expectation clear?
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:19.199
Have I, as the supervisor, provided adequate training to meet that expectation, provided tools to meet that expectation, and consistent feedback to enable the person to meet that expectation.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:29.920
And if I've done all four of those things, then I my look in the mirror has confirmed that I need to talk with the person about what they need to do.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:37.679
But if I fail to do any one of those four things, then I've got to work on me first before I turn my attention to others.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.960
So if I could summarize good feedback, first the mirror, then the window.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:56.960
Make sure that I'm doing what I should be doing to manage me and get incrementally better at what I do before I invite others or provide others feedback aimed at doing the same.
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:57.679
And Dr.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:03.679
Japan, as we draw this episode to a close, what did I fail to ask you that I should have?
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.320
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.920
There is one other thing that I would add, Derek, and I appreciate your asking.
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:19.280
Let me phrase it this way: no one is 100% right 100% of the time.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.760
Everybody is fallible.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.360
No one is perfect.
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:54.719
And when you get in touch with your own fallibility and begin to develop a sense of humor about the fact that sometimes you not only make mistakes, but sometimes you make dumb mistakes, then you're more positioned to self-critique, that is, ask yourself hard questions, give yourself feedback, and you're also someone who others discover through the way that you deal with yourself that they too could learn to do that.
00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:05.519
If I'm willing to accept that I make mistakes and to discuss those mistakes openly with others, then it invites others to do the same.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:12.320
And the grounds for feedback widens and broadens and makes it possible.
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:34.880
If I am not willing to ask myself hard questions, if I'm not willing to accept my own fallibility, then I will find it very difficult to accept when others ask me hard questions or when others suggest that maybe I am fallible and that I do make mistakes.
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:37.840
No one's 100% right 100% of the time.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.559
We're all fallible, no one's perfect.
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:55.199
And developing a sense of humor about that and helping others do the same is a great place to begin in nurturing an organization where feedback is normalized.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.519
If those listening are interested in seeing a regular leadership quote from Dr.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:10.960
Chapman, you can follow Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated on LinkedIn or Facebook or the handle The Leader's Code on Instagram or X, formerly known as Twitter.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:19.760
For the convenience of those listening at BrainchatterPodcast.com, we will post links to various resources related to this, as well as to Dr.
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:25.360
Chapman's bio and links to the several books he has authored or co-authored over his career.
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:30.960
Those books include The Leader's Code and Safety Beyond the Numbers.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.199
Brainchatter is a production of Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:59.199
We assist clients across North America and beyond with leadership development, corporate culture transformation initiatives, behavior-based professional development for health and safety issues, individual and team assessments, conflict and performance management, succession planning, and team building, making a difference in organizations and individuals' lives for over 40 years.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:01.840
Learn more at leaderscode.com.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.320
Please consider ranking and reviewing us wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:07.760
Thank you for listening.
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.599
All constructive feedback on this episode is welcome.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.039
Welcome back to Brain Chatter, where we listen past the daily noise and explore topics at the intersection of leadership, workplace culture, profit, and sustainability.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:11.279
I'm your host, Derek Brown.
00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:16.160
The topic of this episode is effective workplace feedback.
00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:17.519
Today's guest is Dr.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:24.640
Ken Chapman, founder of Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated, sponsor of this podcast, and author of the Leader's Code book.
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:25.120
Dr.
00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:39.679
Chapman has been working as an organizational psychologist, consulting on leadership and management issues and strengthening workplace cultures for over 40 years across four continents and within over 500 company locations.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:40.320
Dr.
00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.600
Chapman, thank you for coming back to record your third episode of Brain Chatter.
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:46.640
Thanks, Derek.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:48.079
I appreciate the opportunity.
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:50.960
I guess it is number three, and I'm glad to be here.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:52.159
Thank you.
00:00:52.479 --> 00:01:00.880
First question: why is it that you dislike and recommend against having annual performance reviews?
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:14.480
That's a great question to begin with because it's the one that usually gets raised eyebrows when I'm talking with an executive or a general manager, because there's this assumption that there must be some accounting.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.920
And the best way to have that accounting, so to speak, is to have an annual review.
00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:26.000
It's not so much that I think that annual reviews are useless.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:31.359
It's that too often they replace something that is more valuable.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:37.760
And that the thing that is more valuable is that people get feedback every day.
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.400
If someone does something exceptional, they should know that day.
00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.640
If they fail to meet an expectation, they should know that day.
00:01:47.040 --> 00:02:08.800
When I say that I dislike annual reviews, what I really intend to do is to get people's attention and to make sure they understand that an annual review is relatively worthless if during the year you have not been providing daily systematic feedback when it was expected or required.
00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:09.759
Thank you, Dr.
00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:10.400
Chapman.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:11.680
That makes sense to me.
00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:18.000
And since I report to you in my own work, I know that you personally encourage feedback.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:27.039
Would you describe the sort of feedback you appreciate when it comes from a direct report, when it comes from a customer, or when it comes from some other source?
00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:28.400
Thanks, Derek.
00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.400
That's another great question.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:36.800
Because the higher up you are in an organization, the more difficult it is to get good feedback.
00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.560
People are reluctant to tell the boss the truth.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:52.719
They're reluctant to be candid because they suspect that, one, it may not be appropriate, or two, that there may be some consequence that's associated with it.
00:02:52.960 --> 00:03:03.039
So one of the most important things that a leader has to do is create an environment in which people are comfortable providing feedback.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:08.560
That means that you have to do things like listen when people are talking to you.
00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:26.879
Also be careful to thank them for the feedback that they provide, and most of all, to be sure that they never face any consequence when they have come to you with candid information, which they hope will be helpful to you andor the organization.
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.080
Feedback is essential.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:37.280
And not too long ago, uh I asked our team at KCNA to provide me with some feedback.
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:46.639
And I suspect that my response and what I discovered is what most uh people in similar positions discover.
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:56.960
You think you have a pretty good idea of what people think and a pretty good idea of where they're coming from in terms of their interaction with you, but there are surprises.
00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:15.199
Uh, for example, uh the KCNA team shared with me several things, but probably the most noteworthy was that uh I tend to move through my day thinking that people have telepathic ability, that they can uh automatically discern what it is that I'm thinking.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.920
And when I thought about it, I realized that that probably is true.
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.439
And I've taken measures to remedy that.
00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:30.800
Another thing that was mentioned was that I needed to be more direct in what I want or don't want.
00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:53.759
And I think that goes back to my emphasis inside our firm that we are a team of peers, that we're a team of colleagues, and my assumption, uh, which is not a good assumption, uh, that uh I don't have to say things directly that people can decipher them from a conversation.
00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.480
Well, sometimes that's okay.
00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:09.040
But when something needs to be done and the direction needs to be clear, then I and all other leaders, supervisors, managers, executives, need to be direct and candid.
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.959
Courteous with people, but to certainly be direct and candid.
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:26.480
Can you describe what the most helpful feedback to you includes in terms of specifics, timing, and how goodwill for mutual interest is expressed within that feedback?
00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:29.600
And goodwill has to be the foundation of it, Derek.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:38.720
Uh the the reality is that you you certainly want to choose the right time and place, which is usually going to be in private, one-to-one.
00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:47.519
And you want to provide the feedback in a uh a timely manner so that people benefit from it as early and as quickly as possible.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:06:07.600
But it's hard to overstate the importance of the goodwill, and that is to making it clear in the tone and the manner in which you offer the feedback, that you intend this as an investment in the person's success and that you want them to benefit, not be harmed by what you're saying.
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.519
So tone of voice and the choice of words certainly matters.
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:32.000
The other thing that I would add about this is that if you're in a leadership role, supervisor, manager, GM, executive, it really is something that goes to your own success to nurture in your direct reports their willingness to give you candid feedback in a timely manner.
00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:40.800
The way that I phrase it to uh organizational leaders is this cultivate the understanding that good news can wait.
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:41.759
That's right.
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:47.920
Cultivate the understanding that good news can wait, but that bad news can't.
00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:50.879
So it works like this.
00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:53.759
Uh good news is always good to hear.
00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.040
It certainly cheers people up, raises morale, certainly strengthens relationships.
00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:10.959
But it's also true that the sooner you know about something that's problematic, the sooner and easier you're going to be able to repair it.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.680
The whole concept of process improvement lends itself here.
00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:27.680
And that is that when a problem arises, the sooner I know about that problem, the easier, not necessarily easy, but the easier it's going to be resolved.
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:34.079
And the longer that problem goes unrecognized, the more difficult it will be to resolve.
00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:44.319
If I've convinced through my interaction with the people who report to me that it's safe to bring me bad news quickly, then they'll bring me bad news quickly.
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:52.240
And that's a much greater investment in my and their success than them bringing me good news and only good news.
00:07:52.560 --> 00:08:00.639
Would you contrast the difference between feedback that is constructive versus not constructive or even destructive?
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:11.199
One of the things that you sense right away when someone is offering you constructive feedback is that, as we mentioned earlier, they have goodwill for you.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.720
And you have the sense that they want to be helpful.
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:27.360
Not only do they want to provide you with information that might prevent you from making a mistake or enable you to grow, but they also go so far as to say, can I help you with this?
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:32.799
Is there something I can offer that will make this feedback more useful to you?
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:41.039
The person who has destructive feedback, there's always a sense that it's a it has a gotcha quality to it.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:48.799
They may have even been holding on to it for the right moment so they can talk about it in front of others in an important meeting.
00:08:49.039 --> 00:09:02.000
The greater the time that passes between when you know that I need to make a correction and when you actually talk to me about it, the less it feels businesslike and the more it feels personal.
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:09.360
If you're holding on to it for a long time, it feels like you're holding on to it so that you can ambush me with it.
00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:21.679
So when people are giving you feedback that is intended to be helpful and constructive, it always has a dimension of goodwill in it and they offer to help.
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:29.039
And when people offer destructive feedback, it almost always has some kind of gotcha quality to it.
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:42.159
You note that consistently, one of the top reasons for an employee's dissatisfaction with their manager or leader is quote, failure to provide constructive feedback.
00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:43.440
Close quote.
00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.600
Let's go to the baseline because that's where it begins.
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.720
All human beings share in common three basic needs.
00:09:52.960 --> 00:10:03.440
All human beings want to be valued, all human beings want to be able to make sense out of the world around them, and all human beings want a sense of purpose or direction for their lives.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:24.720
And the more well-intentioned a person is, and the more focused they are on making a contribution to their people around them, to their organization, to the common good, the core committed they are to making a contribution, the more interested they are in knowing where they stand.
00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:28.720
They want to be able to make sense out of where they are in the organization.
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.080
Am I or am I not meeting expectations?
00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:48.399
Because most well-intentioned people in their minds, and to the benefit of the company, are going somewhere and they want to know if they're going to the right place, if they're on the right path, if they're doing the things that need to be done.
00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.720
And they certainly want to know if they're working hard at things that don't matter.
00:10:52.960 --> 00:11:00.080
The best people welcome feedback because they want to succeed and they want to know where they stand.
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:06.799
Will you discuss the importance and the strategy of building trust as it relates to feedback?
00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:19.120
Let's begin by recognizing that the common perception as to what trust is all about, that the paradigm around that has to be flipped.
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:27.679
And when I say the paradigm has to be flipped, you ask the average person what comes to mind when you hear the word trust.
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.639
And their response is usually something like this.
00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.039
Well, I think about the people I can trust and the people I can't trust.
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:41.200
Well, the place to begin is to think about trust in a very different way.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.919
And that is don't focus on who you can trust.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.200
Focus first on who can trust you.
00:11:49.919 --> 00:12:00.399
Be a good example of a trustworthy person to your colleagues, a good example of a trustworthy person to the people who report to you.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:09.360
And that will establish a pathway, and it will coax them toward a similar set of behaviors.
00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:21.360
A supervisor or manager or executive who injects regular feedback into a workplace environment is likely to find some resistance to it, particularly at first.
00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:25.840
In fact, their team may even find it awkward and likely uncomfortable at first.
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:36.559
Can you address strategies for getting through this phase as smoothly as possible to a point where it becomes more comfortable and certainly much more normalized?
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.320
Well, a great place to begin is to model what you want.
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:51.519
If you want to develop an organization, a team where feedback is normalized, the place to begin is with yourself.
00:12:51.840 --> 00:13:06.159
For the first few weeks, perhaps even for the first few months, always include in your all-hands meetings or your staff meetings, your weekly meetings, always include a time when you ask, what do I need to do?
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.480
What am I not doing?
00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:10.320
Where am I failing you?
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.039
How can I be more supportive of you?
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:17.200
And these questions should be directed at the direct reports.
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:18.960
How can I be helpful to you?
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:20.480
What am I failing to do?
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:27.360
What needs to be done that's not being done from my role and responsibility?
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:39.039
So you begin by emphasizing that you want feedback and only asking for feedback for yourself, and then of course demonstrating that you will use that feedback.
00:13:39.279 --> 00:14:08.559
And then you begin step two with one-on-one conversations with people where you ask them uh for feedback about the relationship you have with them, and then you ask if you can give them feedback, but they'll almost certainly say yes, and you give them something that's usable and understandable, and then you ask them if you can help them with uh the information that you have provided.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.279
Do they need additional resources or support?
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:28.000
So the the basic steps are begin with yourself and then start one-on-one with people giving and receiving and offering to help, and then you can eventually expand it to a general confidence conversation within the team.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:33.200
But you won't get there if you avoid steps one and two.
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:58.480
That is model, demonstrate your willingness to accept feedback and then move on to inviting people to self-critique, to provide feedback back and forth in a one-on-one private conversation where people can get comfortable and used to the idea that this is not about gotcha.
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:04.320
It's not about putting people on the spot, it's about investing in each other's success.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:18.559
For a company that really wants to make feedback a cornerstone, what are the benefits of establishing regular feedback as a normal standard of the workplace environment?
00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.679
Well, it's the ultimate process improvement.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:33.759
And when I say it's the ultimate process improvement, every company uh says at one time or another, and frequently, in fact, our people are our most valuable asset.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:47.279
Well, if my people are my most valuable asset, everything that can be done to enable them to perform at their very best, and the developed pride of association, pride of workmanship should be done.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:57.440
And nothing is more helpful than the investment of consistent, constructive, well-intended feedback.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:04.000
Just like with an individual, when it's not provided, the individual never reaches their potential.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:20.320
So the organization never reaches its potential because it has people who don't know what they need to know and therefore cannot reach the best version of themselves, either personally or professionally.
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.279
Let's look at the other side of that.
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.120
Let's think about an organization, a company where people hear things like this.
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.720
Derek, you need to stay in your own lane.
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:38.080
Or uh, Derek, if we need your opinion, we'll come ask you for it.
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.879
What are the costs of a workplace where feedback is not the standard?
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.639
If you will start with the cost to the individual and then discuss the cost to the organization?
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.720
I like that question a lot.
00:16:50.879 --> 00:17:02.320
Uh uh, because in such organizations where feedback is not normalized, people reach their potential by default, not by design, which means that most people never do.
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:10.559
And of course, therefore, the organization reaches its potential by default, not by design, which means it usually never reaches its potential.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:26.000
The critical thing here is that in an organization where people feel that they can make sense out of things, they feel that they have a sense of purpose and direction and that they're valued.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.680
They give you something called discretionary energy.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:37.119
And discretionary energy is something you can't pay for or buy.
00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:40.559
It's something people must choose to give you.
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:42.720
So, what's discretionary energy?
00:17:42.960 --> 00:18:06.960
Discretionary energy is that employee who feels that they've been given adequate feedback to know where they stand, they have a clear understanding of what it is they're to do, they're recognized for doing it well, and it is clear that their contribution is valued, that person will choose to give you discretionary energy.
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:14.480
Discretionary energy is when I choose to work a few minutes over time and I'm not worried about being paid.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:22.960
When I decide to give extra thought to the project I'm working on, even when I'm at home, even though I'm not being paid for that.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:34.240
And I'm willing to walk down the hall to have a conversation that I might have thought was inconvenient in the past in order to make sure the project is successful.
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:47.200
It's the extra time and energy and resources that a person is willing to give you when they care about the organization because it's clear to them that the organization cares about them.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.279
Whose job is it to solicit feedback?
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:56.720
It's the leader's responsibility to solicit feedback.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:10.079
And in a team of peers, where you have uh a group of uh supervisors that are a team or a group of managers that are a team, a group of executives that are a team, it's everybody's responsibility.
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:15.279
It's essential not to wait for somebody to uh introduce the concept.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:21.839
But if I want to be a part of a high performance team, I want to say to other supervisors, give me feedback.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.920
I want to ask if I can give feedback to other supervisors, the same with managers and executives.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.799
So if I'm the boss, I got to lead the way.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:37.519
If I'm a team of peers, I still got to assume responsibility, take the initiative, offer feedback and ask for it.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:49.359
Sort of putting boots to the ground on this, what is the most practical set of questions that somebody can ask or should ask to solicit constructive feedback from others?
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.960
It's important to be hard on issues and easy on people.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.799
If that sounds a little odd, uh think about your experience.
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:10.160
You've probably had the experience of those instances where the boss was hard on people and easy on the issue.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:21.440
It usually happens something like this: something goes wrong on the production floor, and the boss shows up, and her first question is, who did this?
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.720
Well, that's being hard on the person and easy on the issue.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:41.119
By contrast, when you're hard on the issue and easy on the person, something goes wrong on the production floor, and the boss shows up, and her first question is, well, you know, clearly this is not what we want.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:48.799
So let's walk through the steps that got us to where we don't want to be, and let's figure out where we failed.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.400
Sometimes it's the process, sometimes it's the materials, and sometimes it's a particular team member.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.720
And if that's the case, so be it.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:05.440
But the goal is not to find someone to blame, the goal is to solve the problem.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:31.119
So the most practical questions that I can ask when it comes to soliciting constructed feedback is the kinds of questions that invite people to share what they saw, what they understand, what they think, and to do it in a way that is comfortable for them to say and comfortable for the other person to hear.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:37.759
Would you talk about what place listening and empathy hold in the feedback process?
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.640
Well, Derek, here you've moved into an important issue generationally.
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:49.359
Certainly it's important for Gen X and for boomers, but it's even more important for millennials and Gen Z.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:56.960
And I would phrase it this way every good leader needs to develop this skill.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.759
It is the ability to listen without judgment.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.359
And to gently connect people to reality.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:20.640
And when you can listen without judgment and gently connect people to reality, then you are empathizing in a way that has the greatest positive impact on the performance of the individual and the performance of the team.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:34.960
I make the generational reference because millennials and Z's are particularly sensitive to the idea of being judged by the standards or morays of boomers in particular.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:44.720
They see themselves as living in a new time, a new age, which of course is true, having different perspectives and, of course, different lived experiences.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:23:01.680
So millennials and Gen Zs are very open to the boomer who will listen and not pass judgment, but simply listen and then with an effort to be helpful, make a connection to reality.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:08.480
And it's also true that it can be done in the reverse order.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:14.000
Sometimes boomers, for example, have a great deal of difficulty with technology.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:23.599
And sometimes they express that in frustration that uh seems uh disproportionate to a millennial who grew up with the technology.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:57.920
But if the millennial listens to the boomer without judgment, it takes into account that they grew up in a world without this technology, then that willingness to listen without judgment to the boomer as they rant and rave about the difficulty of using their smartphone, and then the millennial gently points out what facets or aspects of the phone would be helpful for the boomer to know, then real connection can be made there.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:13.279
But the importance of listening without judgment and connecting people to reality can strengthen a workplace, particularly when there is a recognition of the generational dynamics involved.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:21.920
How should a manager deal with a direct report who just absolutely refuses to accept constructive, well-intentioned feedback?
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:30.799
Maybe they do this through constant interruptions when the feedback is provided, or maybe just argumentativeness before even considering the feedback.
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.400
What's your recommendation?
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:46.640
Well, here, Derek, you've you've hit on one of the big challenges to providing feedback, and it's often a roadblock that young and more inexperienced supervisors and managers uh can't get past.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:56.319
And they can't get past it because it uh seems like something that they can't nail down or they can't quite get a handle on.
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:06.880
And the reason they feel like they can't quite get a handle on it is that they're either unaware or they forget something important about organizational governance.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:08.720
And this is what I mean.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:24.640
When I sit down with a team member to offer them feedback at the right time, in the right place, and I'm doing it in a responsible manner, being constructive, making offering the goodwill that it should accompany.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:39.039
When I offer my feedback in the proper way, and they refuse delivery on it and want to be argumentative about it, this is the point where I need to end the conversation.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:45.920
And I need to end the conversation and say something like, I can see this is not really working.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:49.200
We're not really going anywhere helpful.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:56.319
So let's get back together, maybe tomorrow afternoon, same time, same place, and let's continue this conversation.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:10.960
So I'll wait a couple of hours and I go to that uh employee, that team member, one-on-one, and I say, between now and our meeting tomorrow afternoon, uh I want you to keep something in mind.
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:13.599
And this is what I want you to keep in mind.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:27.519
When you come to that conversation, you need to come to that conversation with ideas about how we can work together, about how we can solve the problem we were talking about a little while ago.
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:34.079
Because this is something that you need to know about our relationship.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:43.839
Because you're an employee of this organization, it is an expectation that is non-negotiable that you will cooperate with me.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.359
Cooperation is non-negotiable.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:57.920
So you need to come to the meeting prepared to help me find a solution to the problem we have to solve together.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.599
It is not optional whether or not you cooperate.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.160
That's a condition of employment.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:21.759
And then the next day, uh, when the meeting takes place again, uh, if I need to, I remind the person that cooperation is not negotiable, that we need to find a good path forward for this issue, and then move on.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:30.799
And of course, soon or late, uh every supervisor or manager will have that employee who genuinely doesn't get it.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:40.160
They just simply don't accept the idea that I have to cooperate with the people that I report to, and I don't have to cooperate with the people that I work with.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:53.279
And in that particular instance, there's only one path, and that path is to document conversations and to begin the process of managing the person out of the organization.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:04.720
Because no organization can be governed if everyone in the organization thinks they do not have to cooperate with the people they work with.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:19.519
There was a pretty funny ESPN commercial some years back where these two people are in a car and they're talking, and then one of them discovers uh that the other person is a fan of their arch nemesis football team.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:31.359
And at that moment, the person opens the door, leaps out of the moving car, rolls down a hill, and somehow this was preferable to being in the same car as the person who was a fan of the other team.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.920
So I'll say something I'm sure will surprise you, Dr.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:34.720
Chapman.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:36.880
Sometimes people can be petty.
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:38.480
I'm sure you've never seen that.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:40.960
That is that is news.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:42.640
Go ahead.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:55.440
Maybe someone is a Michigan football fan and they have given feedback to one of their employees that wearing that Ohio State shirt on Fridays needs to stop if they want basic respect in the workplace.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:09.920
How should someone receiving what they perceive as truly petty or irrelevant feedback, maybe even bullying feedback, respond to such feedback apart from just taking another job?
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.319
Well, another great question.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:14.880
And yes, uh, people can be petty.
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:20.240
The interest that many people have in sports, uh, these kinds of things are not unusual.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:30.640
In fact, uh a specific instance comes to mind uh where uh a couple of folks were arguing over a uh uh professional football team.
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.319
One of them was a Steelers fan, and one of them was a Green Bay fan.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.000
Basically, the dynamic was as you described it.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:30:03.759
The uh Pittsburgh uh Steelers fan uh was always telling the Green Bay Packer fan you ought not to wear your uh team uh wear uh in the workplace on Fridays, uh, which was casual day, and uh making some uh joke that was not very tasteful or uh bullying statement about uh Green Bay.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.359
The Green Bay fan handled it quite well.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:12.079
Her initial response was simply to smile and and let let it pass.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:30.000
But after it went on for for several weeks during the the season, the uh Green Bay fan finally turned to the Pittsburgh Steelers fan and said, you know, it's really none of my business what Schwartz team you support.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.440
And he got it.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:54.799
Uh so sometimes uh it's best just to start by trying to ignore it, but uh if necessary, it may be it may be necessary to simply make the point that these are private decisions that everyone has a right to make for themselves.
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.519
And if you can do it in a way as witty as uh she did, then all the better.
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:15.920
Let's say that that I'm a leader and I'm confident that I am providing genuinely constructive feedback, but I find that it is consistently being met with defensiveness or outright rejection, my feedback.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:19.039
How should I, as the leader, address this?
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:42.079
Here again, uh it comes down to the the idea that cooperation is non-negotiable, that that when people are provided feedback that is fact-based, reality-based, intended to enable the person to perform at their best, and that and delivery is refused.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:54.880
And sometimes people refuse delivery on the information that is essential to their success, and they refuse delivery on information that's essential to them being the best version of themselves.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:32:05.119
And when that pattern is clearly established that it's not going to change, that that person has what I call a sign on their forehead.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:09.119
And the sign on their forehead says, I don't belong here.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.480
I don't intend to make a contribution beyond what I absolutely have to.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:23.359
And here again, the supervisor, a manager, the leader will have to make a decision about whether or not this person can remain.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:33.759
Because when people won't accept feedback, it's not just that it impacts their ability to improve because they won't get better.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:46.559
Uh, they won't become an increasingly valuable member of the team, but they will also give others the impression that they do not have to make an effort to become an increasingly valuable member of the team either.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.960
It has a corrupting effect.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:33:02.960
When you think about accountability and constructive feedback, what would you say in your experience has been most effective connecting accountability to constructive feedback?
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:15.920
I mentioned earlier that uh all people share three basic needs: the need to be valued, the need to make sense out of things, uh, the need for a sense of purpose or or direction.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:28.000
And what I've found is that people like and welcome an invitation to live up to their highest opinion of themselves.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:34.720
Everyone has in their mind an idea of their ideal self, what they're like at their best.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:56.000
And when feedback that is constructive appeals to a person's highest opinion of themselves, then you can establish an accountability that's internal to the person, which will, of course, make their accountability to those around them more pronounced and more evident.
00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:14.320
Here again, most people are well-intentioned, and most of the struggles that they have in their personal and professional lives are the deficit or the difference between what they do or say and what the person they actually view themselves as being.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:30.079
Whenever there's a gap between my highest opinion of myself and something that I've done that I think doesn't live up to my highest opinion, then that gets my attention and creates an accountability that nobody else can create except me.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.400
And that person will get better.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:42.239
So appealing to people's highest opinion of themselves is the way to connect accountability to the value of constructive feedback.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:35:00.239
And you see that in something we mentioned earlier, and that is that person who is conscientious, who's a good employee, who wants to know where they stand because they're going somewhere and they want to be successful.
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:00.960
Dr.
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.199
Chapman, my next to last question.
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:13.679
If you were to very concisely summarize the strategy for normalized, regular, constructive feedback in a workplace environment, how would you summarize that?
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:15.440
Well, that's easy, Derek.
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.639
Uh I would say start with this.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.199
First the mirror, then the window.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:29.119
Whenever something goes wrong in your department or your reporting group, look in the mirror first.
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.320
Don't look at the people who report to you, look in the mirror first.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:37.760
And invite others to participate as you look in the mirror first.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:46.960
And then after you have perfected the art of looking in the mirror first, then invite others to do the same.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.360
Uh lead them to do the same.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.960
An example.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:56.559
If I have someone who's not meeting expectations, I shouldn't look at them first.
00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:58.000
I should look at me.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:04.639
And I should ask myself, okay, have I, as the supervisor, made the expectation clear?
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:19.199
Have I, as the supervisor, provided adequate training to meet that expectation, provided tools to meet that expectation, and consistent feedback to enable the person to meet that expectation.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:29.920
And if I've done all four of those things, then I my look in the mirror has confirmed that I need to talk with the person about what they need to do.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:37.679
But if I fail to do any one of those four things, then I've got to work on me first before I turn my attention to others.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.960
So if I could summarize good feedback, first the mirror, then the window.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:56.960
Make sure that I'm doing what I should be doing to manage me and get incrementally better at what I do before I invite others or provide others feedback aimed at doing the same.
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:57.679
And Dr.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:03.679
Japan, as we draw this episode to a close, what did I fail to ask you that I should have?
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.320
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.920
There is one other thing that I would add, Derek, and I appreciate your asking.
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:19.280
Let me phrase it this way: no one is 100% right 100% of the time.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.760
Everybody is fallible.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.360
No one is perfect.
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:54.719
And when you get in touch with your own fallibility and begin to develop a sense of humor about the fact that sometimes you not only make mistakes, but sometimes you make dumb mistakes, then you're more positioned to self-critique, that is, ask yourself hard questions, give yourself feedback, and you're also someone who others discover through the way that you deal with yourself that they too could learn to do that.
00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:05.519
If I'm willing to accept that I make mistakes and to discuss those mistakes openly with others, then it invites others to do the same.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:12.320
And the grounds for feedback widens and broadens and makes it possible.
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:34.880
If I am not willing to ask myself hard questions, if I'm not willing to accept my own fallibility, then I will find it very difficult to accept when others ask me hard questions or when others suggest that maybe I am fallible and that I do make mistakes.
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:37.840
No one's 100% right 100% of the time.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.559
We're all fallible, no one's perfect.
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:55.199
And developing a sense of humor about that and helping others do the same is a great place to begin in nurturing an organization where feedback is normalized.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.519
If those listening are interested in seeing a regular leadership quote from Dr.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:10.960
Chapman, you can follow Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated on LinkedIn or Facebook or the handle The Leader's Code on Instagram or X, formerly known as Twitter.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:19.760
For the convenience of those listening at BrainchatterPodcast.com, we will post links to various resources related to this, as well as to Dr.
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:25.360
Chapman's bio and links to the several books he has authored or co-authored over his career.
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:30.960
Those books include The Leader's Code and Safety Beyond the Numbers.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.199
Brainchatter is a production of Ken Chapman and Associates Incorporated.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:59.199
We assist clients across North America and beyond with leadership development, corporate culture transformation initiatives, behavior-based professional development for health and safety issues, individual and team assessments, conflict and performance management, succession planning, and team building, making a difference in organizations and individuals' lives for over 40 years.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:01.840
Learn more at leaderscode.com.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.320
Please consider ranking and reviewing us wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:07.760
Thank you for listening.
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.599
All constructive feedback on this episode is welcome.
