11. Performer Type, Please

WEBVTT
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this episode includes content from The Notation
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Is Not the Music by Barthold Kuijken, used with
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permission of Indiana University Press. What's
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up, Marilyn? How are you doing? I'm good, Kelly.
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How are you? I'm doing great. So, so far, we,
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let's see, we were, I think last episode, we
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were like focusing more on perspectives of the
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entire like process of performing historical
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music. So we saw like the audience side, right?
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And now I think we're about to see the musician
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side or more of like the performer and everyone
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involved in that field and see what they're thinking
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in their headspace versus what the audience thoughts.
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It was interesting because I thought like the
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audience, what Kuijken was like basically summarizing
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was the audience is not going to, I guess, clearly
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they're not in that headspace where musicians
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are. So they're going to have completely different
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expectations. what they're gonna hear or like
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look at in the concert and also how they treat
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they treated it if you know um What I'm talking
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about like how they taught how they treated like
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performances like it was like I guess like a
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promenade or like what is it like lobbying like?
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Music case like people can freely come in and
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out of an opera Eat food or drink or whatever
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and it was all that stuff. I also find it interesting
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too because when I performer a musician goes
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to see a concert as an audience member they often
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have a very different perspective of the concert
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than somebody who doesn't have a musical background
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and they pick up on things so I mean there are
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times where musicians are acting as the audience
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too and so they bring a whole other perspective
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I think the last chapter was mainly talking about
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people who are not musicians or maybe are not
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super inclined towards performance necessarily
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But that could be a whole separate chapter on
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the performer acting as the audience member too.
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And what they, their notions of things. Yeah.
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So now without further ado, I think we can just
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like jump in. So this is 15, the performer's
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attitude. Very often musicians from earlier centuries
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performed in situations that would not inspire
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envy today. During meals, receptions, and balls
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in the open air, on the water. Handel, that's
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a cool musical reference right there. Handel
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water music. Merely as background noise. I suppose
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not everybody reacted in the same way to these
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circumstances. Probably some were disengaged
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and wanted to do nothing more than their duty,
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while others tried to attract attention nevertheless,
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by singing or playing in a flashy virtuoso style,
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loud and full of many grand gestures. Obviously,
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the standard performer does not and did not exist.
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His temperament, capabilities, and ambition,
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his education within specific conventions of
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culture and social class, and his particular
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function and performance context will have shaped
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his attitude. If he is only a performer, he might
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be less adventurous or less successful in adding
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his own layer of interpretation to an existing
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piece than if he is a competent composer, able
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to expand upon his works or remodel other people's
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compositions. So we saw two questions there.
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The first one is, OK, so how did how do composers
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audiences expect musicians to do the music? Right.
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And then were they still faithful to that specific
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notation or freely like expanding it through
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those expressive elements? And that's that's
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I think that's a very ongoing question today.
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Like even just not just the 18th century music
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and 17th century music, but even I guess like.
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contemporary music i've even seen it in some
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of those cases um when i was uh studying joseph
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schwantner um we're doing new morning in the
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world and you could you could definitely hear
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some totally different takes on the narration
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part um there's a narration for acting as mlk
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jr and there's this there's ones with a lot of
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exigence urgency um but very like kind of like
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rather calm demeanor and then i've seen like
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uh like international performances of it where
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it's just this, there's just sounds like a, I
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don't know, like a 10, like a tenor, like Pavarotti,
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like we must stop this. Like the tones are totally
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different or we must stop this. It's very calm.
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So it's totally different. It kind of reminds
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me of that. Well, yeah, I guess it's, you know,
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this is a, a continuous thing going back to the
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beginning of music or the beginning of notation
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really up until today. And that's, that is interesting
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how, I think it's just it's something that is
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always going to be there. That's that's kind
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of a major question. And is what kind of defines
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the composer versus the performer is how is it
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going to be interpreted? So, yeah. All right.
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So let's see the first case, the amateur versus
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the professional. Basically, in allowing for
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exceptions today as well as in earlier times,
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the amateur plays for his own pleasure and has
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no responsibilities toward anybody. The composer
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is mostly not present, and if someone else wants
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to listen, it's entirely the listener's problem.
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One could say that the amateur plays with a profoundly
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egotistical attitude, as much as a consumer as
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any CD buyer or concert goer. Even when he occasionally
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plays before an audience, he will generally be
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more focused more on his personal satisfaction
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of playing in public like a professional than
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on adequate rendering of the score and the interaction
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of the listeners. This reminds me of all the
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rich people. They own all those nice instruments,
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right? And then they say, playing music is my
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pastime. And sometimes they might even think
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of themselves as the professionals too. It's
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kind of funny. I remember there was, I think,
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like, I don't know if it was Toronto Symphony,
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but there was a news where this, like, CEO, like,
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paid, like, I don't know, $100 million to an
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orchestra so he can conduct the entire, like,
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Mahler 2 or something. I don't know. What? Yeah,
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it was kind of funny. That is crazy. You know,
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the orchestra couldn't deny the money, though.
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But a lot of the musicians were like, oh, no.
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Like, whoo. But, nevertheless, that kind of reminds
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me of that. Yeah. Everyone can think of this
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as an example for A. The professional, on the
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contrary, plays for other people's pleasure,
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his audiences. They bought a ticket, dressed
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up, traveled to the concert venue, and they went
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to enjoy the event. Clearly, this gives the performer
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another heavier responsibility. Just like any
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salesman, he... will be identified with the quality
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of his product. Of course, though the professional's
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performer's private pleasure is not his main
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goal, if he takes no pleasure in his job, he
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will soon burn out, eventually become bitter
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and unhappy, disenchanted and disenchanting,
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and will sooner or later, hopefully sooner, stop
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performing altogether. saying like if you're
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if you don't take any pleasure in your job but
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you're you're you still have the skill for it
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you probably are not you're probably cut out
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for the for that field of playing yeah i mean
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that's that's even an argument too where i'd
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rather see a performer up in stage who maybe
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is not misses a couple notes maybe misses a shift
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or two but because they have so much energy and
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you can tell they really enjoy what they're doing
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um i'd almost I'd rather watch a concert of that
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versus somebody who's perfectly technically spot
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on, but there's kind of a lack of, um, passion
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behind their play or conducting, you know, or
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something like that. Yeah. There's a lot of like,
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like, like there's a conviction behind their,
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you know, their, um, performance and what's going
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on in their mind while they're like sending that
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message to us on the stage. Yeah. Yeah. So. I
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think... I don't think... This definitely has
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happened a lot of times. I don't know. I don't
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know if I can name any musicians who kind of,
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like, did that. But if you think of any, let
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me know. Like, I think there's definitely people
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who kind of, like, became a little more out of
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touch with the playing, and then they kind of,
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like, kind of, like, dropped out. Kind of fell
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off. They didn't, like, completely do that, but,
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like, they did fall out in certain aspects, maybe,
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like, performing off the lot. But, you know.
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That's one case. So... Here, it is the professional
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musician who interests us here. He often seems
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to balance on a tightrope stretch between the
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audience on one side and the composer on the
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other. Both sides need him. Composers need performers
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in order for their music to be heard, and listeners
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require performers in order to hear what the
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composer has written. Most audiences cannot read
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a musical score and hear it immediately and accurately
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in the mind's ear. performers are dependent on
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both composers and audiences most do not compose
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their music own music therefore they need somebody
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else to write it for them performers also need
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the audience they want to be on the stage and
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feel the electrifying contact with their listeners
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they move the emotions of their listeners and
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hope in return to be admired by them i don't
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know that kind of also that kind of gave me a
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little bit like attention seeking like tendencies
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in that in those sentences like leading up to
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the conclusion like to the so what i don't know
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i don't know if you noticed that but it's also
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like it's also i'm just like applying this as
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like a holistically but it's also like the validation
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aspect too right like if no one's gonna if if
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a composer i don't think performers are involved
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in this but if the composer doesn't really feel
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validated in that fact then they might not like
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Do it and do anything anymore for that in that
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sense? They might not want to keep making works
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if they don't like if audiences are not gonna
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like, you know Rightfully that like oh, this
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is pretty good. I like it versus like oh, this
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is completely terrible And then there's like
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the ones where you have the white face right
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the lie. Oh, this is good. But yeah The composer
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in the performer because it's all about the audience
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so The performer wants to look good. The composer
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wants to sound good. The audience also wants
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the composer and the performer to sound good.
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But if the performer is more interested in making
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themselves look good and they kind of, I don't
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know, corrupt the composition that they're playing
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in a way, I think the audience can pick that
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up. And I think that the performer winds up not
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doing justice to the music. And because they're
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not doing justice to the music, they don't do
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justice to themselves. And the composer sounds
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not as it should. The piece doesn't sound as
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it should. It's, I don't know, it's this kind
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of back and forth thing where they do kind of
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need each other. And there is that fine line
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because it is all about the audience. And I think
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that the audience, whether they're from a musical
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background or not, I think oftentimes they pick
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these things up in ways, in unexpected ways that
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maybe they can't accurately name with like a
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musical title. But they know the difference between
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a good performance versus a bad performance sometimes,
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not just by missed notes. And we also know in
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history that those three steps, those three components,
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the performer, the composer, and the audience,
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some of those don't even align. The audience...
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aspect might fail maybe they did hate the performance
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right if you think i think brahms academic overture
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i think that was a case like it was treated as
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lobby music and like you know congratulatory
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music and or like the performer aspect right
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um they played something horribly and i i think
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that can be very applicable to contemporary music
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right now and also uh i guess the composer too
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right like tchaikovsky hated his 1812 overture
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That's the fact, actually. He didn't like doing
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that. It's also Russian interest back then because
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he just didn't like the occasion of writing that
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music. So some of those might not align, but
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in the very end, like in today, in the future
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or today, right, we perceive it as like great
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music. And even like on the performer and audience
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side, which is still alive in that sense, we
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still validate it, you know, as valid music.
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and music that we can actually like listen to
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a lot and appreciate so if you see that i think
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that that's kind of an interesting aspect right
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there it is yeah the perception of it changes
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over time the perception of course But now this
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is going to be interesting. I remember this graph.
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It's on the next page. It's a very simple diagram,
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but you'll see what happens here. So this is
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the second component, the compass. So let's imagine
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a horizontal line on a map and put the audience
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at the one end west and the composer at the other
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end east. OK, so in respect to this line, the
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performer can choose a number of different positions.
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So right here we have a figure and I'm actually
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going to just say it out because I don't like
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putting diagrams out. I know when we cite books,
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that's horrible. Like, it's really hard to say.
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But here's a graph. It's kind of like, OK, you
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have a let's see, how do how do I say this? You
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have a you have a parallelogram, I guess. Yeah,
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you have this triangle with. Four boxes, top,
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right, bottom, left, at each endpoint, a vertice
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of the triangle. So at the north, the top, you
00:14:26.090 --> 00:14:30.210
have genius, north. At the east, on the right
00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:32.409
vertice, you have east, which is the composer.
00:14:32.470 --> 00:14:35.370
On the west, left side of vertice of the triangle,
00:14:35.529 --> 00:14:37.830
you have the audience, and then the bottom south
00:14:37.830 --> 00:14:41.059
is the follower. That's going to be interesting
00:14:41.059 --> 00:14:45.240
here. So here is what he says. North, above the
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:47.100
line, I would place those performers who somehow
00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:49.820
believe themselves to be superior to the composer
00:14:49.820 --> 00:14:53.120
and or the audience. Okay, this is interesting.
00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.559
South, below the line, I place performers who
00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:58.759
see themselves as subservient to the composer
00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:02.039
and or audience. Okay, west, I place the performer
00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:03.899
who pays most attention to the audience. And
00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.600
east, I place the performer who pays more attention
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.830
to the composer. Okay, this is an interesting
00:15:09.830 --> 00:15:12.389
way of thinking. But also, it helps us distinguish
00:15:12.389 --> 00:15:18.850
the different types of performers. And also,
00:15:18.929 --> 00:15:22.610
you can also mix and match some of these with
00:15:22.610 --> 00:15:25.750
some of the performers today or even in the past.
00:15:25.789 --> 00:15:30.980
You could! Yeah, so this is interesting. Alright,
00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:33.679
so, though some and maybe the more interesting
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:35.899
musicians frequently change places, others seem
00:15:35.899 --> 00:15:38.830
to be happy with their... uh once chosen position
00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:41.289
some typical cases were you gonna say something
00:15:41.289 --> 00:15:43.549
oh no i was just thinking like i think the goal
00:15:43.549 --> 00:15:45.250
would probably to be somewhere in the middle
00:15:45.250 --> 00:15:48.450
of oh yes totally i think this is a spectrum
00:15:48.450 --> 00:15:51.250
i don't think this is yeah you could put a dot
00:15:51.250 --> 00:15:54.070
anywhere between in the within the triangle i
00:15:54.070 --> 00:15:56.690
think and then depending on the piece too like
00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:59.789
yeah yeah okay i remember first seeing this and
00:15:59.789 --> 00:16:01.909
i didn't understand it but now i i think now
00:16:01.909 --> 00:16:04.889
it's coming together so first there is a performer
00:16:04.889 --> 00:16:08.820
who does not seek to impose himself who respectfully
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:10.740
wants to stay in the shadow of the composer.
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.980
He or she would like to make himself anonymous
00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:15.120
and only be the composer's instrument. He or
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.820
she will often most safely limit herself to the
00:16:18.820 --> 00:16:22.080
printed text, preferably an urtext edition, with
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.960
minimum personal interpretation and maximum neutrality.
00:16:25.059 --> 00:16:27.700
Although that is an illusion, of course, he says.
00:16:27.820 --> 00:16:31.340
We could picture him very east, below the composer's
00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:35.100
position, below the line. So this is just one
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:37.500
of the cases. That's interesting. What was this
00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:44.230
qualifying as? He was blah, blah, blah. So this
00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:46.950
is just one stereotype, I think. It's not a stereotype,
00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:48.809
but characteristic. A characteristic, right.
00:16:48.990 --> 00:16:53.490
Yeah. So also below the line, but in the extreme
00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:56.470
west below the audience. Okay. So it's a little
00:16:56.470 --> 00:16:59.389
bit below audience. I would put the quote unquote
00:16:59.389 --> 00:17:03.240
seducer. He is the performer who once. all wants
00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:05.559
to please and flatter the audience and who does
00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.099
not ask any effort from the listener or not more
00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:10.480
than three minute time span familiar to television
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.319
and radio his repertoire consists of hits the
00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:15.940
best of and so forth he will freely adapt anything
00:17:15.940 --> 00:17:18.440
without really caring too much what the composer
00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:20.519
actually wrote as long as the audience recognizes
00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.460
the tune and reacts favorably toward him i think
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:25.200
that's kind of reliable i i'm not going to name
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.420
anyone but i think there's a lot of music directors
00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:29.160
i think there's a lot of music directors that
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:32.299
do that That was very popular in the 1960s, too.
00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:35.839
Oh, yes. The classical records was like the best
00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:38.319
of Mendelssohn, the best of Tchaikovsky or something.
00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.400
But they're kind of like these rearranged orchestral
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.019
pieces that to fit maybe just piano and violin
00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:46.799
or something like that to appeal to the contemporary
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.880
audience, which was getting the Beatles and the
00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:51.500
Monkees and things like that coming out for the
00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:55.180
first time. Yes, exactly. So this one is a very
00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:57.420
this one. I think this characteristic is very
00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:01.250
relatable for a lot of the conductors not not
00:18:01.250 --> 00:18:03.390
just conductors but ensemble leaders leaders
00:18:03.390 --> 00:18:06.990
right sure in a sense okay here's the third position
00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:09.799
i think we're going like from right to left We're
00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:11.779
going from right to top to bottom. We'll see.
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:14.359
So this one's the genius one. So we're in North,
00:18:14.539 --> 00:18:17.140
I think, the third position. He considers himself
00:18:17.140 --> 00:18:19.519
to have full power over the compositions, to
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:21.619
be at least as important as the composer, and
00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:23.819
as such, does not feel all too responsible to
00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:25.940
him. As a true hero of the concert platform,
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.319
he masterfully captivates his audience. He has
00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.980
an immediately recognizable and inimitable style
00:18:33.980 --> 00:19:02.250
and sound. Of course, it... That's another interesting
00:19:02.250 --> 00:19:06.589
one. I... I guess... Do you want to name a musician
00:19:06.589 --> 00:19:08.950
like before historically that probably did this
00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:14.009
or like probably ah maybe of the likes of Like
00:19:14.230 --> 00:19:18.490
Vladimir Horowitz. Oh, I can see that. Yeah,
00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:24.549
or yeah, I think this is more common from their
00:19:24.549 --> 00:19:27.990
era that kind of earlier like 20th century Very
00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:31.170
romantic era style, but still you know with sound
00:19:31.170 --> 00:19:34.420
recording. Um I think they sort of have a very
00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.799
distinct sound to their soloistic playing, where
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.079
you listen to them and a lot of people will actually
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:43.059
go for their recordings specifically because
00:19:43.059 --> 00:19:45.339
they wrote their own cadenzas and they had these
00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:49.220
sort of almost controversial ideas of how it
00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:51.220
should be played, but it's become so distinct
00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:54.779
and so long -lasting where it's almost compared
00:19:54.779 --> 00:19:57.339
with the composer or the piece that it was written.
00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.460
I don't see too much of that these days, but
00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:04.160
maybe I'm just not thinking of, like, maybe a
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:06.740
contemporary soloist or somebody. I'm probably
00:20:06.740 --> 00:20:10.190
wrong, but... That's very interesting. Okay,
00:20:10.970 --> 00:20:13.569
this one, yeah, so they're holding, like, musicians
00:20:13.569 --> 00:20:16.710
are trying to hold, like, a conviction in themselves,
00:20:16.849 --> 00:20:19.690
but they do reveal that a lot in the music, but
00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:24.150
they don't at the same time reflect the composer's
00:20:24.150 --> 00:20:27.730
essence. in a sense i maybe they they might do
00:20:27.730 --> 00:20:30.190
it in a beautiful way deceptive right that like
00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:33.789
people like comprehend the music as oh this is
00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:37.509
this is like how it is played but it isn't but
00:20:37.509 --> 00:20:39.450
there's like a lot of hidden tendencies in there
00:20:39.450 --> 00:20:42.069
too like a lot of messages about themselves rather
00:20:42.069 --> 00:20:45.009
than the music so i'm just distinguishing it
00:20:45.009 --> 00:20:48.170
out like yeah yeah so the first point bullet
00:20:48.170 --> 00:20:50.730
point we went back to on the previous page was
00:20:50.730 --> 00:20:55.000
east then we went to west north And then here's
00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.119
South. Way down South, well below this line,
00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:00.480
we find his mirror image, the faithful student
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.880
of the genius, the disciple who does not think
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.640
for himself, who will not play a piece unless
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.940
he has his master's fingerings. This rather gray
00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:11.059
attitude is quite frequently encountered in international
00:21:11.059 --> 00:21:13.519
competitions, but seldom among the prize winners.
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:16.579
Oh, you see, this is where it reveals itself.
00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.799
Okay. This is, this is, this is the, what is
00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:26.420
the icebreaker, I guess. yeah see i mean that
00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:28.460
it isn't that surprising too at the same time
00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:33.299
right when you see the piano competition i don't
00:21:33.299 --> 00:21:37.160
know cello yeah it's very true i mean inherited
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.220
fingerings yeah yeah people i think are looking
00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:43.880
for somebody who is gonna do justice to the music
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:47.099
but is also i mean these competitions are are
00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:49.799
also kind of to showcase your you as a player
00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:51.789
And what you're going to bring to the music.
00:21:51.809 --> 00:21:54.069
And so seeing somebody who maybe does take a
00:21:54.069 --> 00:21:56.849
little bit of risk or something that is more
00:21:56.849 --> 00:22:00.109
in like the genius category, North genius category.
00:22:00.410 --> 00:22:02.569
Like, I wonder if maybe that's really what people
00:22:02.569 --> 00:22:05.829
are looking for in some way. Yeah. As an example,
00:22:05.869 --> 00:22:08.250
I don't know, like, you know, international Chopin
00:22:08.250 --> 00:22:11.690
competition. Do you remember Hayato Sumino? Oh,
00:22:11.809 --> 00:22:13.990
what competition was this? The international
00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:16.930
Chopin competition. Do you remember? Oh, Chopin.
00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:20.869
Do you remember the Japanese pianist, Hayato?
00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:24.910
No? Yeah, I think so. Did he play? I don't think
00:22:24.910 --> 00:22:27.569
he won, but guess what? Even if he didn't win,
00:22:27.730 --> 00:22:31.549
he still became internationally renowned, and
00:22:31.549 --> 00:22:34.069
he began performing with all the major orchestras.
00:22:34.210 --> 00:22:36.210
That's an interesting case, because I don't know
00:22:36.210 --> 00:22:38.630
too much about his evaluation. You could figure
00:22:38.630 --> 00:22:41.509
it out, maybe, and see what you thought about
00:22:41.509 --> 00:22:43.390
his performance. It's probably on YouTube. But
00:22:43.390 --> 00:22:46.970
I don't think he ranked anything. But it was
00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:49.049
very interesting because he was such a phenomenal
00:22:49.049 --> 00:22:52.130
pianist. He he didn't study at conservatory.
00:22:52.130 --> 00:22:55.309
He went to like a chemistry like he's studying
00:22:55.309 --> 00:22:58.690
chemistry and he decided to just go into piano
00:22:58.690 --> 00:23:01.609
all of a sudden. Right. Wow. He was really talented.
00:23:01.630 --> 00:23:05.190
But here's the thing. His a lot of his musical
00:23:05.190 --> 00:23:09.609
like conviction in himself and his like stance
00:23:09.609 --> 00:23:12.460
is. Way beyond some of the winners I think because
00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:14.559
they're trying to follow the formula right to
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.720
get when rather than him He has this own like
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.039
musical world that um, I think it's really fascinating
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.200
doesn't corrupt the music Doesn't do anything
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.660
Too way out of boundaries, but it's so refreshing
00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:29.759
to hear I think especially with the competitions
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:34.619
There was another person and I forget his last
00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.119
name David somebody I think he was from Georgia
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:41.400
hmm just sort of another example of this this
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.019
last uh piano competition where very similar
00:23:44.019 --> 00:23:47.039
he didn't place anything but he's like one of
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:48.839
the most popular ones from the competition is
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.720
this his name georgian pianist david krikuli
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.779
or something yes that sounds right that sounds
00:23:54.779 --> 00:23:58.720
right um but just i i don't know what he just
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.799
went off to kind of um like people were rooting
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:02.839
for him they're like oh you should win um and
00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.099
you know there's so many things that go into
00:24:04.099 --> 00:24:07.119
these competitions um but like i said like this
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.369
pianist and the one that you mentioned too a
00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:11.990
lot of them have sometimes more successful careers
00:24:11.990 --> 00:24:14.809
than the winners sometimes. Oh yeah. And so I
00:24:14.809 --> 00:24:16.829
don't, at that, at that point you have to question
00:24:16.829 --> 00:24:20.950
like, is there, is, you know, like winning a
00:24:20.950 --> 00:24:23.809
place at the competition really like going to
00:24:23.809 --> 00:24:26.250
get, get you somewhere. Right. It's like, that's,
00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:28.289
I think that's the question. It doesn't like,
00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:31.619
it doesn't, it can, sure. It can fast track you.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.039
Right. To like all these major orchestras and.
00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:38.170
All this, like, reputability, right? But it's
00:24:38.170 --> 00:24:40.069
not only that. I think those people who don't
00:24:40.069 --> 00:24:43.369
win, I mean, some of those people might not even
00:24:43.369 --> 00:24:45.690
see it as an opportunity to try a competition
00:24:45.690 --> 00:24:48.230
again. It kind of, like, shows maybe they learn
00:24:48.230 --> 00:24:52.190
more about themselves. And I think sometimes
00:24:52.190 --> 00:24:55.750
in cases, right, are become very well known for
00:24:55.750 --> 00:24:59.849
still playing the instrument. And they have this,
00:24:59.930 --> 00:25:03.420
you know, philosophy of... playing in their own
00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:05.579
selves and a lot of people resonate with it i
00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:09.099
think that's more like of a flex to show i know
00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:11.490
i agree i think that's very true in any competition
00:25:11.490 --> 00:25:16.950
i think yeah so it's interesting here um this
00:25:16.950 --> 00:25:19.529
is how he summarizes it so i purposely sketched
00:25:19.529 --> 00:25:21.710
these four attitudes east west north and south
00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:24.470
And he actually starts from East, which is interesting,
00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:26.670
as well as the distinction between amateur and
00:25:26.670 --> 00:25:28.910
professional musician in quite extreme degrees.
00:25:29.130 --> 00:25:31.630
Most performers intuitively may take more moderate
00:25:31.630 --> 00:25:34.250
or mixed positions, which I think, yeah, that's
00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:36.329
the case, right? More people might be in the
00:25:36.329 --> 00:25:39.230
mix of the spectrum. Sure. So they are not placed
00:25:39.230 --> 00:25:42.309
at North, East, Southwest, like definitively.
00:25:42.309 --> 00:25:44.890
However, choosing our position more consciously
00:25:44.890 --> 00:25:49.150
can open new possibilities. Okay? So third...
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.460
Third... case as different approaches to early
00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:56.000
music this is very important because we i think
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.400
you probably we already know that um uh there's
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:01.259
so many different types of early music playing
00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:05.259
there's the very lush romantic style um there's
00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:08.140
the one who doesn't follow any vibrato there's
00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:11.380
the one who follows um the manuscript in a very
00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:14.000
distinct way so let's see where does today's
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.839
performer of early music stand in relation to
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.480
this east west line As expected, we see a whole
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:20.859
rainbow of different solutions coexisting. They
00:26:20.859 --> 00:26:22.480
are not so different from the attitudes I mentioned
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.250
earlier. Case 1. Some people behave as if nothing
00:26:26.250 --> 00:26:27.910
had happened in the field of early music since
00:26:27.910 --> 00:26:30.750
the 1950s. They stay untouched and uninterested
00:26:30.750 --> 00:26:32.849
by any historical information. They continue
00:26:32.849 --> 00:26:34.809
to use the modern instruments and playing techniques
00:26:34.809 --> 00:26:36.690
and style they inherited from their masters.
00:26:36.890 --> 00:26:39.450
In the best cases, they are up north, but otherwise
00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:42.950
they are rather down south and often quite west.
00:26:43.490 --> 00:26:47.210
That is a roast there. In earlier decades, They
00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:49.309
could often be heard stating that historically
00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:52.009
informed playing is, by its very nature, dull.
00:26:52.750 --> 00:26:55.190
Absolutely east below the line as if knowledge
00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:58.410
and scholarship were death blows to genuine musicianship.
00:26:58.930 --> 00:27:00.930
Fortunately, this attitude is encountered less
00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:03.569
and less frequently. And I think that's good
00:27:03.569 --> 00:27:07.029
to know too. It's not like downright bad. I think
00:27:07.029 --> 00:27:09.410
we're moving to a period now where people are
00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:12.190
starting to open more to it. You could clearly
00:27:12.190 --> 00:27:14.390
hear in, like, some of the guests we brought.
00:27:14.470 --> 00:27:16.150
Like, Derek, I think, is very passionate about
00:27:16.150 --> 00:27:19.190
that. Mr. Lewonski, who is our CY cell conductor,
00:27:19.349 --> 00:27:21.789
is very passionate about that too. So I think
00:27:21.789 --> 00:27:24.130
it's good to hear. But at least I don't think
00:27:24.130 --> 00:27:25.670
we don't hear too many people who are, like,
00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.410
saying downright it's horrible. Yeah, we're seeing
00:27:28.410 --> 00:27:30.710
kind of maybe more of a middle ground in terms
00:27:30.710 --> 00:27:32.470
of what we want to hear, and I think that's good.
00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:38.109
So, yeah, that's your stereotype one, characteristic
00:27:38.109 --> 00:27:41.079
one. Characteristic two. Other performers will
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:43.000
still use modern instruments, but when they have
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.660
to play earlier repertoire, they will listen
00:27:44.660 --> 00:27:46.279
to some recordings or take specialized coaching
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:48.680
sessions. They do notice that performance traditions
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:51.200
as well as audience's expectations are changing
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:53.599
and do not want to miss the boat, but for whichever
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.440
reason do not choose to invest very much time
00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:58.460
and energy in these changes and hesitate to go
00:27:58.460 --> 00:28:01.019
all the way in them. Generally, they rely more
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:02.920
on second -hand information than on direct personal
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.710
investigation. Maybe their desire is to get quick
00:28:05.710 --> 00:28:07.630
results, acceptable to many people, listeners,
00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:09.970
colleagues, concert series, orchestra managers.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.519
Unfortunately, today, many conductors and singers,
00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:15.859
even early music specialists, somehow also fall
00:28:15.859 --> 00:28:18.500
into this category. Though in theory, instrumentalists
00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:20.460
should learn from the singers' example, singers
00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:22.799
often let someone else, mostly an instrumentalist,
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.619
apply an all -too -thin layer of historical varnish
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.940
upon their own fundamentally modern bass. If
00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:31.519
this kind of performer is of outstanding intranistic
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:34.920
quality, well north, the result can be fascinating
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:38.200
in its own right. But the performer risks staying
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:41.299
quite far from the composer's east. If he is
00:28:41.299 --> 00:28:43.500
less captivating as an artist, he stays just
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:46.660
as far from the composer's east, but slides south.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.680
So I guess that is the summary. It's people who
00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:55.880
just like expose themselves just like one for
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:58.779
a fraction of a second. And then. So onto the
00:28:58.779 --> 00:29:02.119
performance recording, it's not really that deep.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:08.539
Sure, yeah. Yeah. All right. Third case. Okay,
00:29:08.619 --> 00:29:10.559
this one's kind of long. Let's see. This goes
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.160
all the way down. So get ready for a ride. We
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:15.240
might stop here and there because this one's
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:18.089
very long. I think this is like, okay, this is
00:29:18.089 --> 00:29:21.539
interesting. Ready? Some musicians are so fascinated
00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:23.940
by early music and all its implications that
00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:26.259
they do invest a lot of time and effort. They
00:29:26.259 --> 00:29:27.920
learn to play the old instruments, study the
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.000
original sources, and experience that historical
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.680
performance practice is a viable option. Where
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:35.019
should we put them? Speaking from my own experience
00:29:35.019 --> 00:29:37.180
and conviction, I would expect and hope that
00:29:37.180 --> 00:29:38.759
learning to read the composer's language through
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.160
his own glasses can teach me to constantly redefine
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:43.660
my position according to the era, genre, instrument,
00:29:43.819 --> 00:29:46.059
composer, composition, concert venue, kind of
00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:48.519
audience, and, of course, my own talent and temperament.
00:29:49.009 --> 00:29:50.849
In pieces where the structure seems to me the
00:29:50.849 --> 00:29:54.210
main point, such as complicated fugues, I obviously
00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:56.769
must stay east, very close to the composer, but
00:29:56.769 --> 00:29:59.390
the needs of a charming French rondeau -trendement
00:29:59.390 --> 00:30:02.009
will probably put me west, closer to the audience.
00:30:02.269 --> 00:30:04.910
In a slow movement of infant -sound concerto,
00:30:04.970 --> 00:30:08.230
I should not hesitate to invent elaborate ornamentations
00:30:08.230 --> 00:30:11.140
just like the true north prima donna. Indeed,
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:13.740
if the work... has been conceived for that purpose,
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.259
I should fail ridiculously if I were to play
00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:18.660
or sing only the notes of the Urtex edition in
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:21.880
a completely east way. Even within one single
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.019
sonata, for example a Handel or one of his contemporaries,
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:27.619
I must usually change my position between each
00:30:27.619 --> 00:30:30.019
movement. In the slow and extroverted first movement,
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.440
the tendency is north and a generous dose of
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:38.039
Willkürtische Veränderungen and Wesentliche Manieren.
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:41.660
The second movement often with active fugato
00:30:41.660 --> 00:30:44.960
writing, tends farther east toward the composer.
00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:47.980
I need to stand more west in the generally softer,
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.000
introverted, and intimate third movement, possibly
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.519
a sitiliano or dolce standing too far north there,
00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:57.180
and would make me feel out of place. For the
00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:01.779
final giga, or other fast dance, I might want
00:31:01.779 --> 00:31:03.859
to stand upon or slightly above the line, pretty
00:31:03.859 --> 00:31:06.980
close to the audience, more west than east. I
00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:09.220
think that's kind of a complicated stance, then.
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.740
He's, like, saying he's not really sure, like,
00:31:11.779 --> 00:31:14.579
for musicians who are invested. Now, I think
00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:16.940
it's... He's saying, like, he's giving out different,
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:20.339
like, tempo styles, and, like, if you... If there's
00:31:20.339 --> 00:31:22.200
a piece that's really fast, we just don't know
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.759
if it's really fast. If it's really slow, we
00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:26.480
just don't know if it's really that slow. Do
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.720
you see? I don't know if that's, like... I see.
00:31:28.859 --> 00:31:30.799
Yeah, I see what you mean. I think, really, too,
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.920
he's saying that... Maybe with historical performance
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:35.880
in particular, maybe just because of the nature
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:38.220
of the types of pieces that were being written
00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:40.859
at the time, that as a performer, you almost
00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:44.299
have to adapt what side of that spectrum you're
00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:46.339
on, really, in terms of are you playing for the
00:31:46.339 --> 00:31:47.819
audience? Are you playing for yourself? Are you
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:52.140
harnessing the power of the composer? Are you
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:54.039
doing it just for the art of performance? And
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.680
within even a sonata, I think that's kind of
00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:58.519
what he mentions, too, is each movement is going
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:01.420
to be different. So you have to... Adapt where
00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:04.720
you are in that chart for each movement. Oh,
00:32:04.819 --> 00:32:07.079
that's kind of interesting, too And I he also
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.480
brought up to the different composers. I think
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:11.400
he said handle and who was the other one news?
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.200
Handle and what was it in that paragraph? I was
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:20.180
reading. Oh He mentioned. Oh, sorry. He so he
00:32:20.180 --> 00:32:22.559
mentioned handle as a composer, but he also mentioned
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:26.220
the French Rondo how these different styles of
00:32:26.220 --> 00:32:29.000
pieces and composers will kind of bring out different
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.319
performance practices and you have to be, um,
00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:34.019
adapt, I guess, as a performer to where you are.
00:32:34.180 --> 00:32:39.339
So, uh -huh. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it gives it,
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:43.079
it obviously like with every type of study, right.
00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:45.960
It doesn't, it doesn't give us answers. It gives
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.720
us more questions about what, um, these musicians
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.180
do. So the, I think he's the, he was most complicated.
00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:56.759
He was mostly conflicted with the one where the
00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.279
musicians do spend that time, but it's like there's
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.579
a certain level extent of validation for what
00:33:03.579 --> 00:33:06.420
they're exactly doing. We've got to find out
00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:10.220
exactly what their true purpose and intent is.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.420
When they're actually studying these instruments,
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:14.500
we have to be aware more of what they're doing
00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:17.859
ultimately to see what they want to produce with
00:33:17.859 --> 00:33:21.789
recordings, music, and anything else. I think
00:33:21.789 --> 00:33:25.369
that's the strongest analysis I can grab with
00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:30.369
our limited vocabulary. So, yeah. Let's see.
00:33:30.490 --> 00:33:34.190
So, now, here's a summary. I must admit that
00:33:34.190 --> 00:33:36.309
I would not easily put myself below this east
00:33:36.309 --> 00:33:39.289
-west line, not even in a strict fugue. If I
00:33:39.289 --> 00:33:41.329
played only in the composer's name without personal
00:33:41.329 --> 00:33:43.390
commitment and avoiding any contribution of my
00:33:43.390 --> 00:33:45.809
own, I would extinguish myself, and this would
00:33:45.809 --> 00:33:48.029
not place me in a good position to provide convincing
00:33:48.029 --> 00:33:50.440
communicative power. My playing should sound
00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.559
as if I just invented the piece myself. It should
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:56.940
taste like freshly brewed coffee, not like yesterday's
00:33:56.940 --> 00:34:00.519
reheated leftovers. No, that's so relatable now.
00:34:00.819 --> 00:34:03.720
He's saying the funny part out loud now. After
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:07.140
all this. Yeah. So I think this is something
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:11.280
we should definitely take note of when we go
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:13.500
ask other people. Because I think this is the
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:17.260
most fascinating part of the book. Because it
00:34:17.260 --> 00:34:20.309
gives us these different... types of um people
00:34:20.309 --> 00:34:23.750
and the best like characteristics possible so
00:34:23.750 --> 00:34:26.550
i don't know where what do you think you would
00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:29.110
fall under if you were like a performer well
00:34:29.110 --> 00:34:33.849
i mean for any like think of any piece or i guess
00:34:33.849 --> 00:34:37.210
he was saying was very piecewise um very piecewise
00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:40.429
i honestly think that's true and i think um like
00:34:40.429 --> 00:34:43.590
for example if i'm playing a black piece of something
00:34:43.590 --> 00:34:49.110
on the piano um i almost try to Absolutely. Here's
00:34:49.110 --> 00:34:52.550
an example. Pianist Glenn Gould got a lot of
00:34:52.550 --> 00:34:55.510
pushback because his Bach interpretations were
00:34:55.510 --> 00:34:59.469
very particular. Very neurotic, I would say.
00:34:59.510 --> 00:35:02.690
Very neurotic, yeah. But I feel like he wouldn't
00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:05.050
have gotten that much pushback if he were playing
00:35:05.050 --> 00:35:08.650
maybe Rachmaninoff or something more contemporary.
00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:12.829
So in that same regard, I mean, I think I'm the
00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:14.550
same way. If I'm playing a Bach piece or I'm
00:35:14.550 --> 00:35:17.010
playing a Handel piece on the piano, I'm very...
00:35:18.170 --> 00:35:20.630
I try to follow the music as much as I can. And
00:35:20.630 --> 00:35:22.730
I think I actually pay a lot more attention to
00:35:22.730 --> 00:35:24.829
what is written on the page. So in that case,
00:35:24.909 --> 00:35:27.369
I kind of fall towards... I don't know. Where
00:35:27.369 --> 00:35:31.130
would that be on the... This graph here. Yeah.
00:35:33.750 --> 00:35:37.400
Would it be East Composer? East. Would you be
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:40.639
in between North and East? And then maybe shift
00:35:40.900 --> 00:35:45.320
a little bit left down? I don't know. But if
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:47.579
I'm playing Chopin or something on the piano,
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:50.030
even though... Of course, I want to make sure
00:35:50.030 --> 00:35:51.570
I'm playing everything correct on the page and
00:35:51.570 --> 00:35:54.170
that I'm doing my best to bring out what the
00:35:54.170 --> 00:35:57.309
composer wanted. There is still that sense where
00:35:57.309 --> 00:35:59.610
it's like, oh, but, you know, I don't want to
00:35:59.610 --> 00:36:02.050
sound exactly like Arthur Rubinstein or Martha
00:36:02.050 --> 00:36:03.929
Argerich or somebody like that. It's time to
00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:07.389
be Marilyn Gans when I play. This is their key.
00:36:07.489 --> 00:36:12.840
So I think it is very piece dependent. Maybe
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:14.639
it's things that maybe the performers are not
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.679
always incredibly self -aware about. Maybe that
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.079
I, like me when I play, maybe I actually fall
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:23.480
closer to one of these sides, but I'm actually
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:25.980
not super aware of it. Yeah. If that makes sense.
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:28.440
And maybe everyone, every performer falls somewhere.
00:36:30.260 --> 00:36:32.719
Some people probably don't even leave one side.
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.860
Some people might be just like for all the things
00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:38.699
they play, it's like one way, black and white.
00:36:38.780 --> 00:36:41.119
But for some people, it might be a little bit
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:44.250
more. conflict especially early musicians they
00:36:44.250 --> 00:36:47.889
might like as critics on it's not just critics
00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:51.909
but like performers uh feedbacking on other giving
00:36:51.909 --> 00:36:54.650
feedback on other musicians they might say that
00:36:54.650 --> 00:36:59.409
it one falls like in a very particular area where
00:36:59.409 --> 00:37:03.210
they are following a lot of the composer essence
00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:07.650
qualities but maybe for some pieces or some composers
00:37:07.650 --> 00:37:10.269
like vivaldi they're all the way down South or
00:37:10.269 --> 00:37:14.469
something. No, no, no. More maybe like West for
00:37:14.469 --> 00:37:16.489
Vivaldi. I don't know because it's audience oriented.
00:37:16.630 --> 00:37:19.809
They just want to gleam the audience. Like they
00:37:19.809 --> 00:37:21.530
want to be, they want to look like they want
00:37:21.530 --> 00:37:24.289
to like gleam in a sense that everyone's like,
00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:26.570
Oh, it's Vivaldi. It's fast. It's energetic.
00:37:26.670 --> 00:37:31.949
It's chilly. The four seasons. So yeah, exactly.
00:37:32.289 --> 00:37:35.030
I think once it, once you like mentioned Vivaldi,
00:37:35.170 --> 00:37:39.369
everyone goes wild. Right? Yeah. do you know
00:37:39.369 --> 00:37:43.179
that video on instagram of that pianist and he's
00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:45.639
about to play like a list transcendental etude
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:50.849
and he's like waving his arms around and then
00:37:50.849 --> 00:37:54.510
he hits the court it's wrong oh i'll send it
00:37:54.510 --> 00:37:56.349
to you but it's kind of like that where it's
00:37:56.349 --> 00:37:59.170
like okay because list is like that uh quintessential
00:37:59.170 --> 00:38:03.250
flashy composer until he's not you know exactly
00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:05.550
yeah so you have to play that fine line it's
00:38:05.550 --> 00:38:09.820
like okay um it's just very uh like very fast
00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:11.760
passages but then in the middle of the piece
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.320
will be this like very almost analytical it's
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:18.719
almost like his um his b is it b major his sonata
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:21.440
it's like famous list sonata and there's that
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.619
one counterpoint section and like 30 minutes
00:38:23.619 --> 00:38:25.340
in or whatever where it just goes crazy it's
00:38:25.340 --> 00:38:27.059
like this almost sounds like a bach piece so
00:38:27.059 --> 00:38:29.599
you have to go from this quintessential uh flashy
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:32.699
romantic piano composer to a lot of bach tendencies
00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:34.340
where you have to really lock in and make sure
00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:36.559
that your balance is correct and then You finish
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:38.340
that and you go into like this very romantic
00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:40.760
section legato back to the flashy and it's like
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.440
it's almost bipolar in a way So it's like yeah
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.260
No, no, like this is like literally me when i'm
00:38:47.260 --> 00:38:49.400
thinking of that like sure. Okay. I'm listening
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:58.789
to recording and then say Are you sure yeah Interesting
00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:02.510
except for except for the pop musicians. They
00:39:02.510 --> 00:39:05.309
they actually that's also interesting too. Um
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.130
I don't know. Like, every time they play something,
00:39:09.409 --> 00:39:12.289
like, they... That's also another interesting
00:39:12.289 --> 00:39:14.150
case when they play something. I was thinking
00:39:14.150 --> 00:39:15.909
of, like, Billy Joel, like, for... Like, I was
00:39:15.909 --> 00:39:17.570
actually listening to a lot of Billy Joel recently.
00:39:17.769 --> 00:39:21.269
His music is awesome, too. But it's, like, also
00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:22.989
interesting because they... I think a lot of
00:39:22.989 --> 00:39:25.550
them might want to... That's kind of hard to
00:39:25.550 --> 00:39:28.829
say because this is generally designed in the
00:39:28.829 --> 00:39:32.800
framework where a performer... to composer relationship,
00:39:33.019 --> 00:39:36.239
but think of pop musicians, right? They have
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.679
a totally different spectrum, almost as if the
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:41.420
composer side didn't exist because they are the
00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:45.599
composer. So I feel like they tend to, in a new
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.699
graph, without the composer, they tend to shift
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:50.900
to the audience a lot. I don't know, not necessarily.
00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:53.480
Some musicians actually do care about their own
00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:57.340
music. In concert culture, just like... People
00:39:57.340 --> 00:40:00.320
like show up in mobs, right and they all want
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.039
to like they're raving to the music So it's kind
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.639
of hard to distinguish that from like the actual
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:07.559
music itself like in a live performance. So that
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:11.869
I find that also Interesting to add on I see
00:40:11.869 --> 00:40:14.170
what you mean to and every genre is gonna be
00:40:14.170 --> 00:40:16.389
different I just feel like some types of music
00:40:16.389 --> 00:40:18.909
the one of the biggest purposes is for the audience.
00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:22.829
Mm -hmm in some ways So that's audience is always
00:40:22.829 --> 00:40:25.230
gonna be there. It's always a confident oh yeah
00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:27.630
always yeah that's true with the exception of
00:40:27.630 --> 00:40:29.590
like maybe eric sati or something like where
00:40:29.590 --> 00:40:31.449
he doesn't want his music being shown or something
00:40:31.449 --> 00:40:33.690
i don't know like because he was he was already
00:40:33.690 --> 00:40:37.070
kind of weird so eating only white food yeah
00:40:37.070 --> 00:40:40.630
eating only white food literally like white fish
00:40:40.630 --> 00:40:43.349
or whatever i don't know man that would get so
00:40:43.349 --> 00:40:46.250
boring so fast that would be horrible that'd
00:40:46.250 --> 00:40:47.909
be so bad because if you have like white rice
00:40:47.909 --> 00:40:50.659
right malnutrition You want to put seasoning
00:40:50.659 --> 00:40:52.500
on that. Where's the soy sauce? Where's the other
00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:54.800
stuff? Also, eating, like, white foods, I don't
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.199
know, like, you know, you know where, like, scurvy
00:40:57.199 --> 00:40:59.179
originated from. It's like they only ate corn.
00:40:59.420 --> 00:41:02.460
Like, people only ate corn. You can't eat constantly.
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:05.380
I don't know how this guy survived, but kudos
00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:09.199
to him. Yeah, kudos to him. Yeah, kudos to Sati
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.099
for doing that. Oh, that's crazy. All right,
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:15.179
so that was, that was, I think that had to be
00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:17.420
my most favorite chapter. I don't know. After,
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.929
like, revisiting, I think this was the coolest
00:41:19.929 --> 00:41:23.329
chapter because it kind of distinguishes the
00:41:23.329 --> 00:41:27.230
different people involved in the making of the
00:41:27.230 --> 00:41:32.829
music, right? And I mean, we're not also limited
00:41:32.829 --> 00:41:36.469
to these categories and characteristics of these
00:41:36.469 --> 00:41:39.389
people, but I think it just best shows the type
00:41:39.389 --> 00:41:43.230
of people and we can understand better as performers,
00:41:43.409 --> 00:41:47.050
musicians, what to do next when we're in a concert
00:41:47.050 --> 00:41:49.219
performance. I think this was the best. One of
00:41:49.219 --> 00:41:52.739
the best chapters. It's timeless. Very timeless.
00:41:52.900 --> 00:41:56.000
Yes, totally. It's like, I mean, sure that some
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.000
of those elements of music, like the pitch and
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.280
the rhythm, that was just an ask. That's just
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:03.840
one tiny element of the performance, of the music,
00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:07.519
of the composer, of the world. And I think this
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:10.380
one is like the characteristics. I kind of liked
00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:12.639
it. I enjoyed it better a little bit. No, yeah.
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:16.019
I think it's a good chapter. Yeah. all right
00:42:16.019 --> 00:42:17.800
and also it was like a lot of his experience
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:19.840
of each tiny element this one i thought was the
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:22.139
most relatable for everyone so here this one's
00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:23.599
a very short one if you want to give it a go
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.800
this is emotion and affect okay this is actually
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.940
kind of interesting um all right so he says we
00:42:30.940 --> 00:42:33.460
all know and feel that in spoken language the
00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:35.980
quote real meaning lies below or beyond the words
00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:38.800
that is the benefit we receive by going to the
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:41.019
theater reading a book or listening to poetry
00:42:41.019 --> 00:42:44.190
by talking to somebody rather than writing Because
00:42:44.190 --> 00:42:46.510
of the absence of text, the concepts and emotions
00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:49.070
represented in instrumental music could seem
00:42:49.070 --> 00:42:52.190
less specific. However, unspecified, unspoken,
00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:54.429
or unspeakable does not mean less strong or less
00:42:54.429 --> 00:42:56.889
real. Also in music, the meaning of emotions
00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:00.469
lie below the surface, beyond the notes. I see
00:43:00.469 --> 00:43:05.610
what he did there. That's funny. We may not need
00:43:05.610 --> 00:43:09.150
music. Many texts above music or theater explain
00:43:09.150 --> 00:43:12.590
that you must be moved yourself if you wish to
00:43:12.590 --> 00:43:14.829
move your audience. in that respect it strikes
00:43:14.829 --> 00:43:17.469
me that the word of emotion from the latin ex
00:43:17.469 --> 00:43:21.650
out of one place and mover to move is so strongly
00:43:21.650 --> 00:43:24.130
connected to the body we are moved indeed put
00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:26.309
into motion out of one inner feeling into another
00:43:26.309 --> 00:43:29.230
we are touched transported out of ourselves captured
00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:32.789
raptured uh deafened hurt excited breathless
00:43:32.789 --> 00:43:35.230
caressed aroused or soothed emotion is less a
00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:38.530
physical state not a theoretical concept of course
00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:41.019
if i were an opera singer I must not really personally
00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:43.199
be in love with the heroine of the story, but
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:45.500
I must feel as if I were. I definitely cannot
00:43:45.500 --> 00:43:47.719
say this is lying or pretending, nor would I
00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:50.000
consider it to be sub -reality. It is rather
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.440
a super -reality, a 500 % quote real as it can
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.860
be for any little girl to play, but we all play
00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:58.699
music, at being princess. However, unlike the
00:43:58.699 --> 00:44:01.159
little girl, as a professional performer, I do
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.280
not play for myself, but for the audience. Personal
00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.800
emotion and effect are not identical. I define
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.380
effect as an organized emotion, which I have
00:44:09.380 --> 00:44:13.300
learned to recognize in the score. It is an emotion
00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.199
that I truly and physically feel, but not for
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:17.920
myself, not privately. I want to instill it into
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.280
the audience. I borrow from the author the effect
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:23.199
he designed and suggested, and the effect he
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:25.780
wants the audience to feel. It is also not their
00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:28.320
private or real -life emotion. I accept it as
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:31.340
temporarily as my own, without reservation, even
00:44:31.340 --> 00:44:34.260
if it is this... Oh, sorry. Even... It is at
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:36.679
this moment foreign to me or to my cultural environment.
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:39.679
For example, judging by the text of J .S. Bach
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:41.960
used in his cantatas and passions, few people
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:43.760
today would live and feel religion in the same
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.079
way that J .S. Bach did in his day. Nevertheless,
00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:49.059
I personally cannot imagine playing... Okay.
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:53.119
Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben. Is that
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:55.400
right? Yeah. I'll give you a little bit of a
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:59.199
clarified one. Okay. Aus Liebe will mein Heiland
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:02.800
sterben. Yeah. Okay, sounds better. Where I say
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.280
Matthew's passion is if I were a complete atheist,
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.039
without even momentarily striving to feel what
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:11.840
moved Bach and his text author. For them, too,
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:14.820
the chosen effect is what they wanted their audience
00:45:14.820 --> 00:45:17.199
to feel. Whether or not I am a Christian in my
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:18.860
private life is none of the audience's business,
00:45:19.019 --> 00:45:21.000
but for the duration of that piece, I must let
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:22.980
the effect of that beautiful aria totally take
00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:25.800
possession of me. I must truly believe. When
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:27.579
the performance is finished, I can give back
00:45:27.579 --> 00:45:29.320
to the composer what I had borrowed from them.
00:45:29.750 --> 00:45:31.710
feeling thoroughly grateful for the deep musical
00:45:31.710 --> 00:45:34.429
and spiritual experience. Most listeners will
00:45:34.429 --> 00:45:37.289
experience these changes of effects unconsciously.
00:45:37.309 --> 00:45:40.150
They do not need an explanation. Similarly, a
00:45:40.150 --> 00:45:42.190
performing musician must not necessarily be able
00:45:42.190 --> 00:45:44.489
to identify each effect by its scientific name,
00:45:44.610 --> 00:45:46.610
provided he has learned to discern the effects
00:45:46.610 --> 00:45:48.710
in the compositions and knows how to impart them
00:45:48.710 --> 00:45:51.309
toward the listener. I compare this to a medical
00:45:51.309 --> 00:45:55.030
drug. For me as a consumer, it is more important
00:45:55.030 --> 00:45:58.789
that it is effective that I know That I know
00:45:58.789 --> 00:46:01.090
its name or the Latin enumeration of its components.
00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:04.010
That's a very interesting stance right there.
00:46:04.269 --> 00:46:06.949
This is very interesting. I mean, that's true.
00:46:07.190 --> 00:46:13.480
It is. It's kind of like a... Okay, so he definitely
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:19.300
said he separated religion from the source religion
00:46:19.300 --> 00:46:24.400
of the peace, right? So him saying he must truly
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.230
believe it, he's... He's basically arguing that
00:46:27.230 --> 00:46:30.289
we have to embrace ourselves in the spirit of
00:46:30.289 --> 00:46:35.119
the music rather than, you know, we have to be
00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:38.219
away from ourselves at one point when we're in
00:46:38.219 --> 00:46:40.199
the music, right? We're not thinking about who
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.940
we are in our identity necessarily in the music,
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:50.199
right? But it's rather we are the music. We are
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:53.480
the music and we are the music by the composer.
00:46:53.739 --> 00:46:56.889
That's basically it. And we bring forth what
00:46:56.889 --> 00:46:58.610
the composer intended. I mean, we're really just
00:46:58.610 --> 00:47:02.389
trying to showcase what the composer composed,
00:47:03.829 --> 00:47:05.690
you know? So what they, we're trying to represent
00:47:05.690 --> 00:47:08.349
them as best we can. So that also brings another
00:47:08.349 --> 00:47:11.789
point because it's like physical, it's like physical
00:47:11.789 --> 00:47:15.929
being or physical person. So it's not, he said,
00:47:16.070 --> 00:47:18.909
okay, so he distinguished personal emotion and
00:47:18.909 --> 00:47:21.869
affect. Affect is kind of like the verb, right?
00:47:21.929 --> 00:47:27.099
Where someone feels, affected or affected in
00:47:27.099 --> 00:47:30.239
in uh organized emotion rather than personal
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:32.739
emotion right personal emotion so basically he's
00:47:32.739 --> 00:47:34.659
saying personal emotion when we play in music
00:47:34.659 --> 00:47:36.420
is kind of like not really good i mean that's
00:47:36.420 --> 00:47:38.699
like your own emotion it's not really the emotion
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:41.559
of the music the emotion of the music of the
00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:44.639
context of whatever it is like it it's related
00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:48.199
to religion the story right beethoven symphonies
00:47:48.199 --> 00:47:51.099
um yeah maybe the ninth symphony was more about
00:47:51.099 --> 00:47:54.039
like the political turmoil right and happening
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:57.110
in europe And there's a lot of, I think it was
00:47:57.110 --> 00:47:59.769
like the Vienna, I don't know, like the Vienna,
00:47:59.789 --> 00:48:03.190
I don't know, order or something. There's like
00:48:03.190 --> 00:48:05.829
something going on. And there's so many cases,
00:48:05.889 --> 00:48:07.710
right, for different pieces of music, political
00:48:07.710 --> 00:48:11.889
reasons, right? Shostakovich, USSR. Right. Beethoven,
00:48:12.070 --> 00:48:14.389
Vienna. I don't actually, what do I other one
00:48:14.389 --> 00:48:18.610
knows? Bach was very, what is it, secular? No,
00:48:18.690 --> 00:48:22.329
he was, yeah. No, I don't know if it's secular,
00:48:22.429 --> 00:48:25.599
but he did both actually. He did non -secular
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:28.960
and secular music. So that's the thing. I think
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:33.860
some people are not embracing that into the complete
00:48:33.860 --> 00:48:37.809
headspace when they perform. So they're not in
00:48:37.869 --> 00:48:40.909
that world of the music, of the context of the
00:48:40.909 --> 00:48:45.210
composer. They might be in different headspaces
00:48:45.210 --> 00:48:47.829
going further down, but maybe they're not all
00:48:47.829 --> 00:48:49.750
the way down that rabbit hole as many others
00:48:49.750 --> 00:48:53.320
are. No, exactly. Also with the composers too
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:55.239
because there are examples of like especially
00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:58.880
in the classical era Composers like Mozart wrote
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.800
religious music But I wouldn't classify it if
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:04.000
you like actually look into his his life story
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:05.780
and some of his beliefs most of it was not like
00:49:05.780 --> 00:49:12.159
a devout more like a cultural Mozart I don't
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.219
I think he had a good relationship with the royal
00:49:15.219 --> 00:49:18.000
families. I think when he was doing stuff there
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:21.659
or rich like wealthy Noble aristocrats. I don't
00:49:21.659 --> 00:49:23.849
know. I don't think they I don't think he had
00:49:23.849 --> 00:49:26.869
that much problem with those people, right? I
00:49:26.869 --> 00:49:29.989
think it was more of I Think and I don't know.
00:49:30.050 --> 00:49:32.150
I think he had more of like a problem with other
00:49:32.150 --> 00:49:36.949
composers Well, yeah Yeah, he started to divide
00:49:36.949 --> 00:49:38.869
and that's kind of like the the early monster
00:49:38.869 --> 00:49:41.730
versus like not her was when he decided off topic
00:49:41.730 --> 00:49:45.730
by the way, but he kind of separate from the
00:49:45.730 --> 00:49:49.690
the donations of with a more elite individuals
00:49:49.690 --> 00:49:52.269
because he wasn't as free to write the pieces
00:49:52.269 --> 00:49:54.250
the offers that he wanted to and so that was
00:49:54.250 --> 00:49:56.269
kind of a big thing but uh in the same respect
00:49:56.269 --> 00:49:59.409
too where if a composer is commissioned by a
00:49:59.409 --> 00:50:01.489
political unit or a religious unit to write a
00:50:01.489 --> 00:50:06.269
piece um oftentimes even if they are maybe in
00:50:06.269 --> 00:50:09.829
support of that movement sometimes they're actually
00:50:09.829 --> 00:50:13.150
not as majorly in support as the piece might
00:50:13.150 --> 00:50:17.329
like actually come across if that makes sense
00:50:17.329 --> 00:50:19.809
so again there's that line where not only is
00:50:19.809 --> 00:50:21.809
it you're trying to represent the composer but
00:50:21.809 --> 00:50:24.349
sometimes i guess you have to remove the composer's
00:50:24.349 --> 00:50:26.570
personal life sometimes as well and just represent
00:50:26.570 --> 00:50:30.090
the piece what is the piece for yeah i actually
00:50:30.090 --> 00:50:32.250
i'll give you a good um example i don't know
00:50:32.250 --> 00:50:36.090
it was a meme obviously um in like for a lot
00:50:36.090 --> 00:50:39.730
of kids growing up like actually like i'm i'm
00:50:39.730 --> 00:50:42.840
18 now but like it's like in that generation,
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:44.599
there was this song called, I don't know if you
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.179
know, it's a German song, Erika, it's called
00:50:47.179 --> 00:50:49.619
Erika, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's
00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:51.500
a German marching song, I'm literally pulling
00:50:51.500 --> 00:50:55.010
up the information, it's called, uh, let's see,
00:50:55.170 --> 00:50:59.730
Auf der Heide, uh, so it was a, it was a, it
00:50:59.730 --> 00:51:02.369
was, it was originally a song by, I think, Herms
00:51:02.369 --> 00:51:07.079
Neil in 1938, um, and it was, it was talking
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.000
about a flower, basically, a very specific type
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.739
of flower, right, And unfortunately, what happened
00:51:14.739 --> 00:51:20.099
was this song became used as a Nazi propaganda.
00:51:20.219 --> 00:51:22.500
There was a song called Erika, right? It's called,
00:51:22.579 --> 00:51:24.980
I think it's called Auf der Heide, I mean on
00:51:24.980 --> 00:51:27.780
the health. And it was a song just talking about
00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:30.800
like admiring this like beautiful flower. But
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:33.000
guess what? It was used ultimately as German
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:36.079
Nazi propaganda music. So there's a fine line
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:39.000
between now. It's that song has been horribly
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:44.400
tainted, right? all this like nazi marching military
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:47.679
songs and now people just treat it like as what
00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:51.000
it is now but before you have like right we always
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:54.300
think of before before the that music was completely
00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:56.219
innocent it was just talking about how beautiful
00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:59.679
this kind of flower is now it's used for propaganda
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:02.159
so we have to there's i think some people also
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:05.199
it's very it's very sensitive and i think it's
00:52:05.860 --> 00:52:08.139
I think some music can get corrupted in that
00:52:08.139 --> 00:52:10.659
sense, too, especially with orchestral music,
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:14.480
whatever. Yeah, that's true, actually. A lot
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:17.000
of national composers, I mean, there is that
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:20.340
whole thing about using that time period, too,
00:52:20.460 --> 00:52:22.619
and that specific regime where a lot of classical
00:52:22.619 --> 00:52:25.320
music was kind of usurped just because the composer
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.239
so happened to be German or Austrian, you know,
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:30.480
from the Romantic era. And so it would have had
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:32.840
no idea or connection to that particular movement.
00:52:34.340 --> 00:52:37.340
kind of taken over by that political force and
00:52:37.340 --> 00:52:40.900
so now were had been associated um and it does
00:52:40.900 --> 00:52:42.840
a disservice to their music too because it's
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:45.099
just a whole um same thing happened i think with
00:52:45.099 --> 00:52:48.360
um a lot of soviet composers where they were
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:51.280
taken up and uh called something that they weren't
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.239
and happened maybe even hundreds of years before
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:56.619
but yeah that's that's an unfortunate thing that
00:52:56.619 --> 00:52:59.460
happens yeah and it happens every now and then
00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:04.170
too with um And it does really mess with emotion
00:53:04.170 --> 00:53:08.389
and affect from people too. So that's like how
00:53:08.389 --> 00:53:11.429
we show it is also very important because it
00:53:11.429 --> 00:53:15.469
could change their minds about everything and
00:53:15.469 --> 00:53:18.670
what happens in the long term. So it's always
00:53:18.670 --> 00:53:21.030
something to keep in mind.