Points vs. Assists

Melanie:
00:00:05
Hi, I'm Melanie Ho author of Beyond Leaning In: Gender Equity and



Melanie:
00:00:09
what Organizations are Up Against.



Melanie:
00:00:12
It's a different kind of business book based in research, but told as a novel and



Melanie:
00:00:16
designed to spark discussion and change about gender equity in the workplace.



Melanie:
00:00:21
Thank you for joining this discussion as my cohost, Carla Hickman and I talk



Melanie:
00:00:25
about the challenges that women continue to face at work that are too often



Melanie:
00:00:30
only discussed behind closed doors.



Carla:
00:00:39
Welcome back everyone.



Carla:
00:00:40
This is Carla Hickman.



Carla:
00:00:41
Today's episode.



Carla:
00:00:42
We're going to discuss the importance of male voices and male allies,



Carla:
00:00:46
their perspective and conversations about gender equity in the workplace.



Carla:
00:00:51
Now, Melanie, this is something that you and I have talked about many times



Carla:
00:00:54
across the many years of our friendship.



Carla:
00:00:56
And certainly as you were writing the novel.



Carla:
00:00:58
And so I'm sure many of our readers and listeners would be interested as you were



Carla:
00:01:03
writing a book that is so much about women in the workplace, what was important to



Carla:
00:01:07
you about including men, both in the novel and making sure that this was a book that



Carla:
00:01:12
they would want to read and engage into?



Melanie:
00:01:14
One of my big pet peeves over the years has been that



Melanie:
00:01:17
women in leadership efforts and workplaces so often are exclusively



Melanie:
00:01:21
for women to talk to one another.



Melanie:
00:01:24
And I think that space is so important, but that obviously we're not going to



Melanie:
00:01:28
solve the problem if it's just women talking to one another, that just



Melanie:
00:01:33
reinforces the idea that it's our fault and that we all need to lean in.



Melanie:
00:01:38
And so when I started writing Beyond Leaning In, my goal was to have a book



Melanie:
00:01:42
that would bring both men and women into the conversation with one another, create



Melanie:
00:01:48
a space spark discussion among both men and women, and also among men with



Melanie:
00:01:52
each other sometimes that's necessary.



Melanie:
00:01:55
But it was funny as I started writing the book and I talked to some publishing



Melanie:
00:01:59
industry experts early on, and people basically told me that it was unrealistic



Melanie:
00:02:04
that you have to pick one audience for a book, and that men wouldn't want



Melanie:
00:02:08
to read a book about gender equity.



Melanie:
00:02:10
And I feel like that's just not giving enough credit to men and their



Melanie:
00:02:14
interest in really advancing how we are as a society on this topic.



Melanie:
00:02:19
And so from the early days, I thought of Beyond Leaning In as something where



Melanie:
00:02:23
wanting to have the perspectives of both male and female characters and characters



Melanie:
00:02:28
across genders and also generations and giving everyone an opportunity



Melanie:
00:02:33
to see a little bit of themselves, perhaps, but also to put themselves in



Melanie:
00:02:37
the shoes of characters, unlike them.



Carla:
00:02:39
Well, and hopefully for many of our men, there will be characters here



Carla:
00:02:42
they identify with, but it will also give them a way to talk about what could have



Carla:
00:02:45
been uncomfortable or confusing situations they've encountered or to reflect



Carla:
00:02:49
privately on situations before that helps them develop the language to share that



Carla:
00:02:54
then with their teams or with other people in their, in their office communities.



Melanie:
00:02:58
Exactly on the reflecting privately.



Melanie:
00:03:00
So much of the problem with current diversity equity and inclusion trainings



Melanie:
00:03:04
is that you're running from meeting to meeting, to meeting, to meeting,



Melanie:
00:03:06
and then suddenly are thrust into this situation where you have to discuss



Melanie:
00:03:10
really complicated topics without any of that reflection beforehand.



Carla:
00:03:14
That's right.



Carla:
00:03:15
And I think that's happening in many organizations when I talk to friends,



Carla:
00:03:19
um, certainly in my organization, we're doing even more diversity



Carla:
00:03:22
equity and inclusion training.



Carla:
00:03:23
We want that to be part of the regular workday, but we just had a great



Carla:
00:03:26
conversation at work the other day about, Hey, maybe we dedicate more space and



Carla:
00:03:30
time for this so that it isn't wedged in between meetings on a busy day.



Carla:
00:03:34
Well, I want to dive right in, cause we've got a great excerpt



Carla:
00:03:37
from beyond leaning into here today.



Carla:
00:03:39
So just like we did last time, set the scene for us and help our readers



Carla:
00:03:42
understand what they're about to hear.



Melanie:
00:03:44
The excerpt you're about to hear narrated by Brittany Goodwin



Melanie:
00:03:47
from the audio book is by the perspective of a character named Kyle.



Melanie:
00:03:52
He's a manager in his early thirties, and he's part of a task force that is looking



Melanie:
00:03:58
at cost savings reductions in his company.



Melanie:
00:04:00
Rest assured the excerpt is not about cost savings.



Melanie:
00:04:03
It's about the social dynamics of this task force.



Melanie:
00:04:05
The task force has 15 people on it.



Melanie:
00:04:08
Four of them are men.



Melanie:
00:04:09
So they're, by the way, something interesting because the gender



Melanie:
00:04:12
split of their company is about 50 /50, but in this service-based



Melanie:
00:04:17
taskforce, it is primarily women.



Melanie:
00:04:20
Now, even more interesting than that is that even though the task force is



Melanie:
00:04:24
primarily women as Kyle discusses it with some of his female friends who are



Melanie:
00:04:30
on the task force, they point out to him that at every single meeting, 70% of the



Melanie:
00:04:34
conversation, the airtime is taken up by the smaller number of men in the room.



Melanie:
00:04:40
They also point out to him that they think that seating dynamics have something



Melanie:
00:04:44
to do with it because the four men all sit at the two heads of the table.



Melanie:
00:04:49
Whereas the women did on the sides, the longer sides of the table.



Melanie:
00:04:52
And what that means is that the men end up volleying back and forth to one another



Melanie:
00:04:56
almost as if it were a tennis match and the women are in their peripheral vision.



Melanie:
00:05:01
So they can kind of ignore them while they just focus on what, to the women



Melanie:
00:05:06
seems like men trying to one up each other and win the argument with one another.



Melanie:
00:05:11
And it's something where as Kyle listens to this, he's trying to understand it.



Melanie:
00:05:15
He sort of gets it.



Melanie:
00:05:16
He doesn't quite understand the why don't women just do something about it.



Melanie:
00:05:20
And so they say to him, well, yeah, we actually have a plan.



Melanie:
00:05:23
We're going to do something about it, the next meeting.



Melanie:
00:05:25
And so the excerpt we are about to hear is their plan for kind of taking back the



Melanie:
00:05:31
meeting and taking those dynamics back.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:37
As soon as Kyle arrived at the next task force meeting,



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:40
he realized the plan was indeed in place.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:43
All the women must have arrived early to grab their seats.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:47
They had overwhelmed both heads of the table leaving the only four open



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:51
seats all next to one another on one of the long sides of the table.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:55
If the tendency to volley back and forth across the table, ignoring the



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:05:59
women in their peripheral vision was indeed a factor that contributed to



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:04
male domination of the conversation.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:06
The women had effectively eliminated that possibility by forcing the men to sit



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:10
next to one another in a row in the only remaining chairs, Kyle took one of the



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:16
remaining seats and watched the other men walk in soon after him, Jack looked at



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:21
the head of the table facing the door.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:23
Kyle saw his double-take turned to annoyance as he saw Meg and Amber there.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:29
Crowded room today.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:31
Jack said.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:32
Did he think the reason his seat had been taken was that there were



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:36
simply more people attending that day?



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:39
Well, maybe better that than he realized that all the women, including senior



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:43
ones, Kyle realized as he saw Meg try to hide a smile, had conspired to force the



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:49
men into their desired seating chart.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:52
Am I late Leland asked as he took the seat to the left of Kyle, even though the clock



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:06:58
clearly showed it was exactly on the hour.



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00:07:01
Dan walked in right after Leland and didn't seem to notice he slid into the



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00:07:06
only remaining seat, dropped his stack of papers and laptop on the table in front



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00:07:10
of them, letting them spread out far beyond the amount of appropriate space,



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00:07:15
and then leaned back in his chair, as far as it would go without falling over.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:20
Even with the four men, all scrunched into their allocated space, it



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:24
was typical of Dan to find a way to expand his own personal area.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:30
Jack passed out the agenda.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:32
First item up is sustainability.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:34
You all know we just replaced paper towels in the bathrooms with air dryers, but



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:38
that's pretty much all we've done so far.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:41
Sydney had a great idea.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:43
The other day said Meg, she was mentioning various low cost ways she'd heard that



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:49
other companies encourage carpooling among their employees who live near one another.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:54
It's all about drawing on principles of gamification.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:57
Sydney said.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:07:59
You know, you get points for carpooling or walking to work or taking the



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:02
bus or whatever at a certain number of points there's some kind of



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:05
reward, but it doesn't have to be expensive, a small amount of money



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:09
or tokens toward prizes, or even the ability to attend a special event.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:14
Does that really work?



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:16
Jack sounded skeptical.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:19
Kyle wasn't surprised.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:20
Jack was pretty old-fashioned and always believed in the stick more than



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00:08:25
the carrot when it came to incentives.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:28
Kyle waited to see how Sydney would argue her point.



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00:08:31
But instead it was Cassandra who chimed in.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:34
There's been a lot of research in behavioral economics about social proof,



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00:08:39
basically what you might think of as peer pressure or keeping up with the Joneses.



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00:08:44
That if we had a leaderboard tracking, how many different points people were



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00:08:47
earning and who were the winners, some folks would just want to win.



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00:08:52
Jack had begun to reply, but Amber also started talking at the same time.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:08:57
She raised her voice a little with each word so that Jack eventually stopped.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:02
Wonder if it would be more effective as people signing up in groups rather



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00:09:05
than an individual competition?



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:08
Oh, interesting said Shannon, because then you have the added dimension of



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:13
peer accountability, not wanting to disappoint your team, but could that have



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00:09:18
negative consequences creating conflict if people are frustrated with their teams?



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:24
Hmm.



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00:09:25
I love the idea of peer accountability, but yeah, it could



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00:09:29
cause problems said, Meg, Cassandra, what would the research say?



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:36
After Cassandra replied?



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00:09:37
Megan turns to Kyle.



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00:09:40
I know your team really got into the fitness competition



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00:09:43
we did as a company last year.



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00:09:45
Any lessons from that?



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00:09:47
She asked.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:48
Kyle, didn't use the gender tracker.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:51
But by the end of the meeting, he would have guessed that women



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:09:54
had talked about 70% of the time.



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00:09:56
Proportionate to their percent of the meeting attendees.



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00:10:00
And for the first time all of the women had talked at least a few times.



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00:10:05
Did they simply feel more confident because they'd taken the power



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00:10:08
positions in the room and rallied together for this experiment?



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00:10:12
Did the men feel unsettled even if they didn't quite know why?



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00:10:17
And were they less likely to talk as a result?



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00:10:20
Was the usual ability for the men to look across one another from the two opposite



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00:10:24
heads of the table, really that powerful ? Kyle thought about various female direct



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00:10:30
reports he'd worried were getting lost in meetings over the years and how he'd



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00:10:34
thought he was woke when he tried to help them raise their voice, just get in there.



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00:10:39
Don't let people talk over.



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00:10:40
You.



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00:10:41
Keep talking.



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00:10:42
He'd assumed that supporting women was about helping them understand how to



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00:10:46
assert themselves around men like Jack, who talked a good game on gender, but in



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00:10:51
truth only listened to women and frankly, men who exhibited a certain kind of



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00:10:57
more stereotypically masculine swagger.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:00
Sure enough.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:01
There had been a few moments in the meeting where Kyle had noticed that



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:05
if one of the women hadn't raised her voice or interrupted, Jack would



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00:11:09
have dominated the conversation and not let anyone else get a word in.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:14
But that wasn't the only way they had made sure they were heard.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:18
What was most striking about the task force meeting wasn't the amount that the



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:21
women were talking, but how the whole tenor of the meeting felt different.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:26
Nobody was stridently trying to make or debate arguments.



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00:11:30
They were calling on one another if they thought someone else had something to say.



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00:11:35
Did you all plan in advance?



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:11:37
What you were going to say?



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00:11:38
Kyle asked Shannon after she tilted her head?



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00:11:43
No, did it seemed like we did?



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00:11:46
You called on each other a lot.



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00:11:48
He said then he paused .Though.



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00:11:51
I guess people also called on me and the other men a few times.



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00:11:55
And I suppose we weren't in on the plan.



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00:11:58
She laughed.



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00:12:00
Yup.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:12:01
That's just the difference of a meeting where people are each focused on their



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00:12:04
individual contribution alone, as opposed to one where they're thinking about how



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00:12:08
to lift the whole group collectively.



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00:12:11
Kyle looked at the notepad he'd been using for meetings the last few months.



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00:12:15
From this meeting, he had a page full of thoughts and ideas that stemmed from



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00:12:19
the discussion at previous meetings.



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00:12:22
He had been so busy talking or thinking about what he'd say next



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00:12:27
that he hadn't been listening.



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00:12:29
And hadn't written anything much down as a result.



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00:12:32
He remembered something his mom had told him when he was a kid.



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00:12:36
If you spend all your time talking, you're not listening and you're not learning.



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00:12:42
When they'd first talked about meetings, being like a back and forth sports match.



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00:12:46
Kyle had thought about tennis with literal volleying back and forth



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00:12:50
between players, but maybe basketball was the more appropriate metaphor.



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00:12:55
It was like the value of the point, as opposed to the value of the assist.



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00:13:00
The assist, helping someone else advance or clarify their ideas



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00:13:04
should be as important as each individual scoring more points.



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00:13:08
After all, advancing collective business aims required everyone have as many points



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00:13:14
as possible and that necessitated assists.



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00:13:18
The problem was that promotions, raises, choice assignments, public recognition.



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00:13:23
Those all came from getting points.



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00:13:26
That was the game that Kyle had been playing.



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00:13:28
And for which he had been personally rewarded.



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00:13:32
You couldn't be a total jerk, but the system was rigged against those who spent



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00:13:36
too much time on assists and not points.



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00:13:40
He had enjoyed the group discussion today.



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00:13:42
It had been full of assists, but he doubted those who



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00:13:46
controlled the scoreboard.



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00:13:47
In that room.



Audio Book Excerpt:
00:13:48
It was Jack Leland and Dan would remember anything, but the points.



Melanie:
00:14:00
Welcome back everyone.



Melanie:
00:14:01
I'm really excited to have Jackson and Jeff here with us today.



Melanie:
00:14:06
Can you two introduce yourselves before we dive deep into your thoughts on the book?



Jackson:
00:14:10
Hello, my name is Jackson Boyer.



Jackson:
00:14:12
I am co-founder and CEO of a company called mentor Collective.



Jackson:
00:14:17
We are 55 full-time employees and as the founder, I have had



Jackson:
00:14:24
to learn a lot about culture and take on those responsibilities,



Jackson:
00:14:29
whether I was ready or not.



Jackson:
00:14:31
So this book in particular has been enlightening and a great



Jackson:
00:14:35
point of reflection for me.



Jeff:
00:14:37
Hi, my name is Jeff Martin.



Jeff:
00:14:38
I'm a senior director in EABs research and insights division.



Jeff:
00:14:44
Been with the company for about 10 years, we're an organization of over



Jeff:
00:14:48
1500 employees working in research and tech and managed services.



Jeff:
00:14:54
I'm pleased to be here.



Jackson:
00:14:55
This scene to me, reminded me of experiences I've



Jackson:
00:15:00
had with women in my own company.



Jackson:
00:15:03
Kyle's character in particular really resonated with me because it seemed



Jackson:
00:15:08
that he had a lot of confidence among the middle management of the company



Jackson:
00:15:14
and they had these conversations after work, reflecting on different



Jackson:
00:15:18
gender dynamics within the workplace.



Jackson:
00:15:20
And my background is as a startup founder.



Jackson:
00:15:24
A startup whose first six employees were men.



Jackson:
00:15:27
And we finally hired our first woman on my co-founders male as our seventh employee.



Jackson:
00:15:33
Today, where I think over 60% women.



Jackson:
00:15:37
And while we have a lot of room to grow, it's definitely been an



Jackson:
00:15:39
evolution and we've made progress, I think, over the last several years.



Jackson:
00:15:44
And I think that progress has made largely because of women who voiced



Jackson:
00:15:48
their opinions and thoughts to me about the workplace and I think there was a



Jackson:
00:15:53
moment I had maybe a couple of years ago where I suddenly like stepped back



Jackson:
00:15:58
from the meetings I was in and noticed a lot of things that I hadn't before.



Jackson:
00:16:04
There's a couple different themes here.



Jackson:
00:16:06
I'd be curious for your thoughts, Jeff, but like definitely have my



Jackson:
00:16:10
own socialization to be assertive in a meeting, not just as a



Jackson:
00:16:14
CEO, but as a man in general.



Jackson:
00:16:16
I think it was very quiet in college seminars and sort of



Jackson:
00:16:20
beat myself up because of that.



Jackson:
00:16:22
A lot of my friends were very good at like inserting themselves into



Jackson:
00:16:25
conversations I'd actually been told by advisers to interrupt people more,



Jackson:
00:16:30
to like exert my agenda on the meeting.



Jackson:
00:16:34
But I'll stop talking there.



Jackson:
00:16:35
I would love to hear your thoughts.



Jackson:
00:16:36
Jeff.



Jeff:
00:16:37
It's funny that you mentioned you were quiet in college seminars.



Jeff:
00:16:40
I was at the exact opposite end of the spectrum and oftentimes I feel like



Jeff:
00:16:46
personally, my challenge now, not my a challenge, one of many I'm sure there's a



Jeff:
00:16:52
very long list is reigning in my impulse to talk and to contribute my ideas.



Jeff:
00:17:00
And it's funny, you mentioned your experience in college seminars



Jeff:
00:17:04
being counseled to speak up more, to interrupt more, getting that explicit



Jeff:
00:17:10
message of the way to be successful is to exhibit these, you could say



Jeff:
00:17:14
a stereotypically male behaviors.



Jeff:
00:17:17
I don't have the set for me personally.



Jeff:
00:17:19
I don't have the same foundational memory of being told, Oh, you should be this way.



Jeff:
00:17:25
But when I'm interacting in a group setting aligns very closely



Jeff:
00:17:29
with what our culture sees as traditionally male, more assertive.



Jeff:
00:17:34
I have to remind myself, respond to what the person before you said,



Jeff:
00:17:38
in many instances, this, this scene for me, one, I think underscore,



Jeff:
00:17:46
honestly, across much of the book.



Jeff:
00:17:48
I saw behavior that I have worked hard to exercise.



Jeff:
00:17:57
From my work behaviors, but on top of that, it also underscored for me.



Jeff:
00:18:02
It's funny.



Jeff:
00:18:03
I think in this particular meeting in the scene, 70% of the people are women.



Jeff:
00:18:07
And I think for me, the scene underscored that demographics does not equal culture.



Jeff:
00:18:12
That structural changes have to be made to the ways organizations



Jeff:
00:18:17
are run for that to happen.



Jeff:
00:18:19
Jackson, I'd be curious to hear what deliberate changes you've



Jeff:
00:18:23
had to make to make sure that translated into cultural changes.



Jackson:
00:18:28
Well, I think as a company, we talk a lot about



Jackson:
00:18:31
inclusive performance culture.



Jackson:
00:18:33
I'm sure there are more formal titles for this work, but we are a startup



Jackson:
00:18:40
that in past times was focused on survival and even just continuing to



Jackson:
00:18:45
exist was a massive cognitive load on everybody at the organization.



Jackson:
00:18:50
But as we become more stable over the years, we've had more space to invest.



Jackson:
00:18:55
And I wish I could say that it was deliberate.



Jackson:
00:18:58
I mean, I started this company when I was 24 years old.



Jackson:
00:19:01
So my capacity as a leader was incredibly limited.



Jackson:
00:19:05
It was largely the women at the company who, I think the one thing we did



Jackson:
00:19:10
do perhaps was create enough of an environment of trust that challenging the



Jackson:
00:19:15
CEO would not have led to her professions.



Jackson:
00:19:19
I think of a startup as truly unique because you're forming your culture every



Jackson:
00:19:23
single day with every hire you make and with how you respond in the first three



Jackson:
00:19:27
or four months of the hires tenure.



Jackson:
00:19:29
And so we had several really influential women who joined the company who,



Jackson:
00:19:34
whose voices we elevated and sort of taught ourselves via their perspective



Jackson:
00:19:38
as a new hire in that environment.



Jackson:
00:19:40
And one of those exact pieces of feedback was idea theft in meetings was a lack



Jackson:
00:19:47
of space to have one's voice heard.



Jackson:
00:19:51
And I think we still grapple that with us today.



Jackson:
00:19:53
We're so focused as a company on efficient meetings and systemically that could be a



Jackson:
00:19:58
pretty male centric way to run meetings.



Jackson:
00:20:02
And there's a lot in the news and pop startup culture about running



Jackson:
00:20:07
meetings really efficiently.



Jackson:
00:20:09
We try to label meetings as sort of freeform or specific



Jackson:
00:20:14
to getting something done.



Jackson:
00:20:16
I think that creates a little bit more space, but I still catch myself constantly



Jackson:
00:20:19
trying to push people towards an agenda.



Jackson:
00:20:22
And I think what's exhibited in a scene is sort of a more collaborative awareness of



Jackson:
00:20:28
what the meeting is trying to accomplish and supporting one another to get there,



Jackson:
00:20:32
as opposed to coming into the meeting where you already know the answer and



Jackson:
00:20:35
you're just trying to get everybody on board with your particular opinion.



Jeff:
00:20:38
Your note about efficient meetings to me, calls to mind elsewhere in the



Jeff:
00:20:43
book there's discussion of a company that has a positive work culture in which



Jeff:
00:20:49
in meetings teams take almost an improv theater type yes and approach to idea



Jeff:
00:20:57
generation, which when I read it, both appealed very strongly to me as a way



Jeff:
00:21:04
to give greater voice to team members who might otherwise worry that their



Jeff:
00:21:10
contribution would be bad or disregarded and thus stay quiet in meetings.



Jeff:
00:21:18
But at the same time, a thought that crossed my mind is.



Jeff:
00:21:22
That would take so long.



Jeff:
00:21:24
And there seems to be a very direct tension between the sort of efficiency



Jeff:
00:21:30
that organizations in today's climate, honestly, in any climate need to



Jeff:
00:21:36
exhibit and the sort of deliberate culture building that goes into, or



Jeff:
00:21:43
that can achieve a more balanced and accepting culture that people actually



Jeff:
00:21:48
want to work, that they won't run from.



Melanie:
00:21:51
I love that you both went to this question of efficiency and



Melanie:
00:21:55
the way that organizations put it on a pedestal and the way that can



Melanie:
00:21:59
actually cause harm to culture, but also cause harm to businesses.



Melanie:
00:22:03
.By the end of the book.



Melanie:
00:22:04
And I won't give away any spoilers here, but there are a few scenes



Melanie:
00:22:07
where characters realize that they made decisions based on efficiency



Melanie:
00:22:10
that actually slowed them down.



Melanie:
00:22:12
I've been fascinated by this discussion and just love and really appreciate



Melanie:
00:22:15
how reflective you both are right now.



Melanie:
00:22:18
But also it sounds like across your careers.



Melanie:
00:22:22
One big theme in the book is how much women are always



Melanie:
00:22:25
processing with one another.



Melanie:
00:22:26
What is going on across the workday and you know, some readers have



Melanie:
00:22:30
called it gossip, which another reader pointed out is actually a



Melanie:
00:22:34
very feminized in a bad way term.



Melanie:
00:22:37
Across the book.



Melanie:
00:22:37
We see a lot of characters who are often interpreting their experiences together,



Melanie:
00:22:42
and it's actually helping them reflect on how they fit into the organization.



Melanie:
00:22:47
It's largely women reflecting together, but we do have Kyle as this character



Melanie:
00:22:50
who has a lot of female friends, and it's actually raised an interesting



Melanie:
00:22:54
question to me, which is, I know that women are always reflecting together



Melanie:
00:22:59
often behind closed doors, trying to interpret their experiences because



Melanie:
00:23:02
we're having these things happen to us and are trying to make sense of it.



Melanie:
00:23:06
Well, what does that male point of view?



Jackson:
00:23:09
I certainly have people within my company and investor circle or advisory



Jackson:
00:23:15
circle who I could have a vulnerable conversation with about culture.



Jackson:
00:23:20
It's not always a conversation about race or gender dynamics



Jackson:
00:23:24
in the workplace though.



Jackson:
00:23:25
I will say in the last year, it certainly has been more often.



Jackson:
00:23:28
It's something that I think is sorely lacking.



Jackson:
00:23:30
I think it takes activation energy for me as a white male to go up



Jackson:
00:23:35
to other white men who might have expectations about whether that's



Jackson:
00:23:41
something they're comfortable with.



Jackson:
00:23:42
I make all these assumptions about like, how ready are they for that conversation?



Jackson:
00:23:46
It reminds me in some ways of like a courageous conversation around race,



Jackson:
00:23:50
you have to like activate this more uncomfortable space that some people



Jackson:
00:23:55
might view as a distraction from the work.



Jackson:
00:23:58
I will say Melanie, like your book is a fantastic way to



Jackson:
00:24:01
activate that conversation.



Jackson:
00:24:03
I've already told my leadership team that I've read this book.



Jackson:
00:24:06
That is something I would be interested in discussing with them.



Jackson:
00:24:09
And we do have a book club within our company for reading



Jackson:
00:24:12
similar types of content.



Jackson:
00:24:14
What's interesting though, is who attends those meetings.



Jackson:
00:24:18
If they're optional, I recognize I have, I think a lot of power and responsibility



Jackson:
00:24:22
to activate these conversations.



Jackson:
00:24:24
If they want to see it in my culture, because as the CEO people will



Jackson:
00:24:28
have to listen to me on some level.



Jackson:
00:24:30
But I think curious for your thoughts, Jeff, I'd love to grab a beer with a



Jackson:
00:24:33
friend and talk about this type of book, but I don't find that happening naturally.



Jeff:
00:24:38
Yeah, I agree.



Jeff:
00:24:39
Conversations among men about gender equity in the workplace



Jeff:
00:24:44
are probably few and far between.



Jeff:
00:24:47
That said, I do think there's an underlying strain within millennial



Jeff:
00:24:52
male culture of recognizing injustice and inequities and calling them out.



Jeff:
00:25:00
It's almost, it yields almost sort of cultural cache to perform wokeness.



Jeff:
00:25:08
And the signal.



Jeff:
00:25:09
I know what this is, and I am able to observe it.



Jeff:
00:25:13
I think the problem comes in, in the gap between awareness and



Jeff:
00:25:21
verbal processing and action.



Jeff:
00:25:24
There's a scene elsewhere in the book where a male executive at a casual group



Jeff:
00:25:32
hangout out with a lot of colleagues, both men and women orders tequila shots.



Jeff:
00:25:37
I think it was tequila, which is an interesting choice, but that's the



Jeff:
00:25:40
conversation for a different day or just tequila shots just for the men and Kyle,



Jeff:
00:25:46
Jackson mentioned earlier is aware of it and it's pointed out to him by one



Jeff:
00:25:52
of his female colleagues and friends who asked, why didn't you say something.



Jeff:
00:25:57
Well, I'm just trying to keep my head down.



Jeff:
00:26:00
I have good rapport with senior executives.



Jeff:
00:26:03
I don't want to risk that or put it on the line.



Jeff:
00:26:07
And I think there are often, you know, on Slack with my male friends that were,



Jeff:
00:26:13
let's say a senior executive sends out an email that's kind of broey and other



Jeff:
00:26:20
male, senior executives respond in kind.



Jeff:
00:26:23
And those are the only voices.



Jeff:
00:26:25
It's easy enough for us to Slack each other and say, can you believe



Jeff:
00:26:28
that, uh, such toxic masculinity, what we would do about that.



Jeff:
00:26:33
That's I think where the rubber meets the road, where I and my peers have



Jeff:
00:26:37
to make better efforts that simply recognizing that simply acknowledging



Jeff:
00:26:41
it does not an ally make you.



Melanie:
00:26:45
It's really interesting because as I was writing this and thinking about



Melanie:
00:26:47
the conversations that I've had about gender equity with men, I'll admit that



Melanie:
00:26:52
sometimes I've found it harder with millennial men because of the belief,



Melanie:
00:26:56
that sense of self identity, that many millennial men tied to being woke and



Melanie:
00:27:01
tied to being aware and that I actually can have a conversation very easily



Melanie:
00:27:05
with millennial men about what we see.



Melanie:
00:27:08
Yes.



Melanie:
00:27:08
Can you believe that email chain where the executive men were bro-ing together?



Melanie:
00:27:12
Yeah, that's a great conversation to have with the millennial men, but when



Melanie:
00:27:15
it comes to the hidden challenges, I've found that sometimes with older



Melanie:
00:27:20
gen X men, or baby boomers, they don't already think of themselves as woke.



Melanie:
00:27:25
And so they're really willing to say, I know absolutely nothing.



Melanie:
00:27:29
At all Jeff.



Melanie:
00:27:30
And what you just said though, about reflection and iteration and why



Melanie:
00:27:34
that's important part of the process.



Melanie:
00:27:36
It made me wonder about other millennial trends, like towards mindfulness or self



Melanie:
00:27:42
care, or just kind of being more aware of how one moves towards the world.



Melanie:
00:27:46
And if there's a way that we latch onto those to help folks question where they're



Melanie:
00:27:52
woke and doing something versus where they're woke and staring at the ceiling.



Jeff:
00:27:57
I agree entirely.



Jeff:
00:27:58
I think there is a big opportunity here.



Jeff:
00:28:00
That identity piece you touched on is both the challenge and



Jeff:
00:28:05
probably also the solution.



Jeff:
00:28:07
In my lifetime.



Jeff:
00:28:08
I've seen Sarah V become normalized.



Jeff:
00:28:11
The phrase do the work now is something that people will broadly,



Jeff:
00:28:17
at least in my generation understand people or at least, or at least



Jeff:
00:28:21
paying lip service to the effort.



Jeff:
00:28:24
That they know has to go in to remedying historical



Jeff:
00:28:30
injustice and social inequities.



Jeff:
00:28:34
And that is part of our identity.



Jackson:
00:28:36
So I think, I agree.



Jackson:
00:28:37
I think there is a big opportunity here.



Jackson:
00:28:39
One of the things I've tried to do as I learned more about this work is



Jackson:
00:28:44
talk to others at my company about all the mistakes I've made and the



Jackson:
00:28:50
mistakes I likely continue to make because of a lack of awareness.



Jackson:
00:28:54
And I think the it's some level of entitlement that you see in millennial



Jackson:
00:29:02
workers, moral superiority, I think can be offset by as one of them.



Jackson:
00:29:09
I'm talking about how much more you have to learn.



Jackson:
00:29:13
I think that's where every conversation needs to start.



Jackson:
00:29:16
Because, so we're so unconscious to so many of these patterns.



Jackson:
00:29:20
And I think without that recognition of how much you need to learn,



Jackson:
00:29:24
the conversations are just grandstanding, in my experience.



Jeff:
00:29:28
I think one of the things that'll help us arrive there, not just the



Jeff:
00:29:34
recognition that we need to learn, but the commitment to doing so is the stakes of



Jeff:
00:29:40
the issue, the consequences of failure.



Jeff:
00:29:43
Melanie, you touched on it elsewhere in the book, add in a scene also



Jeff:
00:29:47
featuring Kyle at dinner where his dad is saying, Oh, these millennials need



Jeff:
00:29:55
to just shut up and keep their heads down and do the work and not complain.



Jeff:
00:29:59
And the character Nicole says, you know, that worked pretty well when



Jeff:
00:30:05
employees stayed with one employer for basically their entire career.



Jeff:
00:30:09
But the labor market today is incredibly competitive.



Jeff:
00:30:13
And if someone doesn't like where they work, they'll pick



Jeff:
00:30:16
up and go somewhere else.



Jeff:
00:30:18
To recruit and retain the best talent organizations need to get this down.



Jeff:
00:30:24
And I think anyone who serves in any leadership position in an



Jeff:
00:30:27
organization knows that success or failure turns on talent.



Jeff:
00:30:31
If you don't have the right talent, then you're probably not



Jeff:
00:30:34
headed in the right direction.



Jeff:
00:30:35
I think it can, to some people often seem a little bit fuzzy to grapple



Jeff:
00:30:41
with these internal biases and one's positioning toward the world and others.



Jeff:
00:30:48
But when you think about what happens if we don't do that, that our organizations



Jeff:
00:30:53
plateau or fail, I think it underscores the urgency a little bit more.



Melanie:
00:30:58
One last question.



Melanie:
00:31:00
Both of you have not met until this podcast.



Melanie:
00:31:03
What was it like for the two of you talking about these



Melanie:
00:31:05
issues together on this podcast?



Jackson:
00:31:07
I find it as fun.



Jackson:
00:31:09
And instructive because the first thing I want to do when reading a



Jackson:
00:31:14
narrative style looks like this, that's clearly teaching something is to step



Jackson:
00:31:19
back and look at my own workplace.



Jackson:
00:31:21
But even more than that, and this is something I grappled with as a founder



Jackson:
00:31:25
is understanding other workplaces because I'm so early in my career.



Jackson:
00:31:30
I've worked at two companies, one of which I founded, and I have no idea what team



Jackson:
00:31:34
meetings look like at other organizations.



Jackson:
00:31:36
Like we could be doing things in such weird ways.



Jackson:
00:31:39
I'm sure that Jeff, as someone who runs meetings and manages others



Jackson:
00:31:44
could add so much to my experience.



Jeff:
00:31:47
And similarly, I feel like talking with Jackson gave me a perspective that



Jeff:
00:31:52
I don't have in my personal experience.



Jeff:
00:31:54
Jackson's the founder of a company I work for in increasingly large corporation.



Jeff:
00:32:01
So I've seen a very large organization from within the middle of it, serving



Jeff:
00:32:07
in a leadership role over a few teams, but by no means occupying the C suite



Jeff:
00:32:14
position where I can think holistically across the organization about culture,



Jeff:
00:32:20
but Jackson's in a position where those organizational culture pieces in every



Jeff:
00:32:25
facet of the company, stop with him.



Jeff:
00:32:29
And that's just a perspective that I find very valuable.



Jeff:
00:32:33
So I think putting our brains together, has been a very useful exercise.



Jeff:
00:32:38
Great.



Jeff:
00:32:39
Well, thank you both for joining me today.



Melanie:
00:32:47
Welcome back.



Melanie:
00:32:49
She did that conversation with Jackson and Jeff, and now I am



Melanie:
00:32:53
rejoined by my co-host Carla Hickman.



Melanie:
00:32:55
Carla, you just got a chance to hear Jackson and Jeff respond and react to



Melanie:
00:32:59
the excerpt, whether your thoughts.



Carla:
00:33:01
Well, my first thought was how affirming it was to hear two men



Carla:
00:33:05
who are in positions of leadership and management, very different



Carla:
00:33:08
organizations, don't know each other.



Carla:
00:33:11
You know, this is the first time they're meeting as well.



Carla:
00:33:13
And yet they had so much in common.



Carla:
00:33:15
They are so thoughtful about the dynamics in the workplace.



Carla:
00:33:20
And I really appreciated that in both of their circumstances.



Carla:
00:33:23
This is a book that not only they've read and that they're thinking about



Carla:
00:33:27
bringing up scenes and situations from their lives, but both of them acknowledged



Carla:
00:33:32
wanting to bring it back to their workplaces and to share it with friends.



Carla:
00:33:35
And I think oftentimes for women, I want to believe that there are male allies.



Carla:
00:33:40
I know that there are male allies in my life.



Carla:
00:33:43
And in my organization, but I often don't hear their conversation.



Carla:
00:33:46
So I almost felt like I was getting to eavesdrop on a conversation that I'm



Carla:
00:33:49
not often invited to, which was nice.



Carla:
00:33:53
I also thought it was really interesting because other early



Carla:
00:33:56
readers, particularly with this specific excerpt that we all just listened to.



Carla:
00:34:02
They're like, did Melanie dream this up?



Carla:
00:34:03
Where did this come from?



Carla:
00:34:05
Like, you know, did this come from her research?



Carla:
00:34:07
Was this personal experience.



Carla:
00:34:09
And I happened to know that this one actually does have



Carla:
00:34:11
a really good backstory.



Carla:
00:34:12
And so I was hoping that you could share it with all of us today.



Melanie:
00:34:15
This one actually came from something that I



Melanie:
00:34:17
experienced in grad school.



Melanie:
00:34:19
Not just once, but twice.



Melanie:
00:34:21
Where I too was in a graduate seminar where the majority of



Melanie:
00:34:25
the participants were women.



Melanie:
00:34:28
We had a male professor and a small number of men in the class.



Melanie:
00:34:33
And in most classes.



Melanie:
00:34:36
The men took up the heads of the table and the women were on the side and we



Melanie:
00:34:41
would watch them volley back and forth.



Melanie:
00:34:42
And we would try to get our word in but it was hard.



Melanie:
00:34:44
And sometimes we would just give up.



Melanie:
00:34:46
And so we started talking after class, well, how do we stop this?



Melanie:
00:34:49
And if so much of it is about spatial dynamics, let's just reclaim the space.



Melanie:
00:34:54
And so we did exactly what I then wrote for these characters, which is that we



Melanie:
00:35:00
got to class about five, maybe 10 minutes early and all the women just purposely



Melanie:
00:35:06
took all the seats on the heads of the table and on one side of the table and we



Melanie:
00:35:10
left one side of the table open for the male professor and our male colleagues.



Melanie:
00:35:17
And in both cases, it was just so amazing.



Melanie:
00:35:20
It was like a completely different class.



Melanie:
00:35:22
And I don't know how much of it was that we felt like we claimed our power by



Melanie:
00:35:25
just taking the seats from the beginning.



Melanie:
00:35:27
Maybe we were more likely to be assertive and lean in and then all of that.



Melanie:
00:35:33
But whatever the reasons were, those two classes felt completely different



Melanie:
00:35:38
and what was different about it wasn't just that we talked more as women,



Melanie:
00:35:43
but the way we talked more, and that's why at the end of this scene, I wanted



Melanie:
00:35:47
Kyle to reflect on points versus assist because what we discussed afterwards



Melanie:
00:35:52
as the women in the class was that our participation wasn't just about, we



Melanie:
00:35:56
wanted greater volume and numbers of how often we were talking, but we wanted



Melanie:
00:36:00
to make sure that when we were talking, we were calling on winning one another.



Melanie:
00:36:04
We were reaffirming what each other were saying.



Melanie:
00:36:07
It wasn't just about getting our own voices in.



Melanie:
00:36:09
It was about amplifying each other.



Carla:
00:36:11
I thought it was interesting for Jackson and



Carla:
00:36:13
Joshua remark on the socialization that men have to be assertive.



Carla:
00:36:17
That even when that isn't, I felt like what I was hearing that they



Carla:
00:36:20
didn't quite say was it didn't always feel natural to them.



Carla:
00:36:23
It wasn't the way that they would have participated in a room.



Carla:
00:36:27
And yet from their earliest days, they've been socialized that this is the way



Carla:
00:36:31
that male leaders are to behave and this is the coaching they received in the



Carla:
00:36:34
classroom from teachers and from mentors and now in their leadership roles.



Carla:
00:36:39
And so that powerful woman taking over and changing the dynamics in the room.



Carla:
00:36:44
I can only imagine how that would feel, not only for Kyle, but for



Carla:
00:36:47
all the Kyle's that are out there, how sort of jarring that would be,



Carla:
00:36:50
because it's not what they've been socialized to believe is correct.



Melanie:
00:36:53
Well, I liked what Jeff said about how that wiring and the unconscious



Melanie:
00:36:56
programming is so strong that you don't even know where it came from.



Melanie:
00:36:58
You don't even know if you were programmed a certain way or just at



Melanie:
00:37:01
what you believe because you believe it.



Carla:
00:37:04
That's absolutely right.



Carla:
00:37:05
I think the other thing that Jackson and Jeff speak a little bit about is just the



Carla:
00:37:09
other hallmarks of an effective meeting.



Carla:
00:37:11
So they talk quite a bit about efficiency and having a planned agenda and so we go



Carla:
00:37:16
into this directive mode or this volleying back and forth because we've got to be



Carla:
00:37:19
in this meeting to get things right done.



Carla:
00:37:21
Earlier in Beyond Leaning In so for all of you out there, when you read the full



Carla:
00:37:25
book, you'll notice there is actually a conversation between two characters about



Carla:
00:37:29
a tool that the women use in moments like this, that actually tracks how often men



Carla:
00:37:35
are speaking versus how often women are.



Carla:
00:37:37
And many early readers in our focus group conversations have said,



Carla:
00:37:40
you know, why do you need a tool?



Carla:
00:37:42
You know, this is happening.



Carla:
00:37:43
You know, if you just take a moment and reflect, everybody knows that the women



Carla:
00:37:46
are talking far less than the men are.



Carla:
00:37:49
But I think for me, it was another moment of actually it helps me to



Carla:
00:37:52
realize I'm not imagining things.



Carla:
00:37:55
This really is happening.



Carla:
00:37:56
And it also gives me quantifiable data.



Carla:
00:37:59
I mean, unfortunately we are data-driven right.



Carla:
00:38:01
So it gives me a quantifiable piece of evidence that I can then take and



Carla:
00:38:05
spark a conversation with leadership.



Carla:
00:38:07
It really helps.



Carla:
00:38:08
I think men who, again, don't even realize where this programming is coming from



Carla:
00:38:12
to appreciate the dynamics of a room.



Melanie:
00:38:14
For listeners who haven't seen it, there is a tool online called



Melanie:
00:38:18
AreMenTalkingTooMuch.com and you just push a button when a man is talking



Melanie:
00:38:22
and you push a button and when a woman is talking and at the end of



Melanie:
00:38:24
the meeting, it gives you percentages.



Melanie:
00:38:27
And it is interesting for the characters to reflect on is it needed because it



Melanie:
00:38:32
gives you that number or is it needed because you know, you're not alone or,



Melanie:
00:38:36
you know, you weren't imagining it.



Carla:
00:38:38
Well, I hope, you know, whether you use a tool like that or not, or it's



Carla:
00:38:41
simply something that you've observed in the interactions of your workplace.



Carla:
00:38:45
I hope that this doesn't just spark women talking to one another, but what I



Carla:
00:38:49
really appreciated about Jackson and Jeff was this was men who are talking to one



Carla:
00:38:53
another who are reflecting and processing a situation and figuring things out.



Carla:
00:38:57
You know, at the top of the episode today, Melanie, you talked about



Carla:
00:39:00
how important it is for them to have that space as well, that they need an



Carla:
00:39:04
opportunity in their own day-to-day life to be able to have that conversation.



Carla:
00:39:10
I've also heard you say the things that women sort of prioritize in the workforce.



Carla:
00:39:15
The equity issues are also just connected to a larger generational shift.



Carla:
00:39:19
And we might be seeing that in some of the millennial men that we work with each day.



Carla:
00:39:23
Can you tell us a little bit more about that connection?



Melanie:
00:39:26
I think of it as a Venn diagram and you've got one circle,



Melanie:
00:39:29
which is the things that women historically have more likely valued



Melanie:
00:39:34
in the workplace compared to men.



Melanie:
00:39:35
And you have another circle, which is the things that millennials, both



Melanie:
00:39:40
men and women often value more in the workplace and there's this intersection



Melanie:
00:39:45
and the intersection is things like authenticity of leaders, things like



Melanie:
00:39:49
work- life sustainability, things like being comfortable, talking about



Melanie:
00:39:53
topics like the inner work that we need to do on ourselves when it comes



Melanie:
00:39:58
to diversity, equity and inclusion.



Melanie:
00:40:00
And I feel like a lot of that was running through that conversation with Jackson



Melanie:
00:40:05
and Jeff talking about that inner work, that reflection that needs to happen.



Carla:
00:40:10
And even after every meeting, so it's small moments, right?



Carla:
00:40:14
How could I have run that meeting better?



Carla:
00:40:15
Was I supportive of my direct report?



Carla:
00:40:18
Am I amplifying their contributions?



Carla:
00:40:21
I think that's something all of our listeners and readers can take away.



Carla:
00:40:24
It's something I'm going to take away.



Carla:
00:40:26
Um, as I think about the rest of my work week and how I'm interacting



Carla:
00:40:29
with people across my organization.



Carla:
00:40:32
And I hope what everyone takes away from this again, is that



Carla:
00:40:35
Beyond Leaning In it is a book for all genders and all generations.



Melanie:
00:40:38
There is a space in this conversation and discussion for everyone.



Melanie:
00:40:41
I liked that you said that in terms of the small moments every day, because



Melanie:
00:40:44
I think that diversity equity and inclusion can feel overwhelming when



Melanie:
00:40:47
we just think about it as big gigantic policies that have to happen organization



Melanie:
00:40:52
wide, those are necessary and so I don't want to undermine them, but.



Melanie:
00:40:57
If you just have those you miss out on actually where a lot of the change and



Melanie:
00:41:02
a lot of the challenges come, which are those day-to-day interactions, every



Melanie:
00:41:06
single meeting, whether one-on-one, or as a group and the kind of work and



Melanie:
00:41:10
reflection we can do related to those.



Melanie:
00:41:12
And then anyone can do that.



Melanie:
00:41:13
You don't have to be at the top of your team or org chart



Melanie:
00:41:16
to be able to make change.



Carla:
00:41:18
That's absolutely right.



Carla:
00:41:19
Well, as always, it's been a great conversation today and we are



Carla:
00:41:21
looking forward to the next episode.



Carla:
00:41:24
We will see you all there.



Melanie:
00:41:26
And thanks again to Jeff Martin and Jackson Boyer for joining us today.



Melanie:
00:41:30
Thank you all for listening.



Melanie:
00:41:32
I'm Melanie Ho author of Beyond Leaning In.



Melanie:
00:41:35
Please buy the book on Amazon or through www.beyondleaningin.com



Melanie:
00:41:40
where you can contact us and also learn more about the brother beyond



Melanie:
00:41:44
leading in conversation and community



Melanie:
00:41:46
This podcast is produced by Katie Sunku-Wood at StudioPod.



Melanie:
00:41:53
Media edits were made by Noda Lab.



Melanie:
00:41:55
Music is by Mountain House.



Melanie:
00:41:57
Please subscribe, rate, share, and get in touch with your ideas.