WEBVTT
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Behind every law firm is the version of a story that no one tells.
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The pressure behind the title, the decisions made when no one is watching.
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Behind the bench, how if a law broker brings you the raw, untold truth of building and running a law practice to the unheard moment of your favorite legal choices?
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These are the conversations that do not make the website.
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This is behind the bent.
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Okay, welcome back to another episode of Behind the Bent.
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Today I am joined by the one and only Patrick Festino, also known as the New Bangled Lawyer.
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Welcome to the show, Patrick.
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Great to have you.
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Thanks, Daniel.
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Thanks for having me.
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You and I have uh been on a similar journey the last couple of years.
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So I always of growth and trying and iterating and figuring things out.
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So I always appreciate our conversations.
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Yeah, it's uh it's been great.
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So now we're gonna take those conversations public.
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Hopefully, you don't share anything that I've said that's confidential.
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Um, but no, we've known each other and and gone back some time.
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I'm pretty sure we met on LinkedIn.
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I don't know, I saw something like you got some lawyer tattoo about being nice or whatever that may be.
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And I was like, who is this guy?
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He's got a backwards hat, long hair, big beard.
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What you know, I need to know what who is this Patrick Patino?
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So um, without further ado, why don't we pull some stuff back behind the curtain here?
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For those that don't know Patrick Petino, who are you?
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How did we get here?
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What's your story?
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Sure.
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So I like to say that I'm a lawyer, probably like fifth or sixth down on the list of ways that I identify.
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Or if I introduced myself like recently, uh I was in a room and I introduced myself first as a novice potter, uh a coffee lover, uh, a dad, outdoor enthusiast, and then probably lawyer.
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Dog owner, I have a golden retriever who's awesome.
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He's my best friend named Bear.
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And so really that's uh informs a lot of how I practice is behind the scenes of kind of the way in which I practice in this very newfangled, fresh, approachable way, is just being me and leading with that first as opposed to a title or a practice area.
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Um, you know, so many lawyers you interact with, the first thing they lead off with is I'm a corporate lawyer, I'm a family lawyer.
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No one asks you what you did for a living, but that's very commonly what people lead with.
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Um, and for me, you know, uh law is important, right?
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Being a lawyer is important.
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It's you know, I spend a lot of my time, you know, a lot of my energy in building and iterating um and figuring things out because I don't want to just a legal profession that's doing things the way that's always been done.
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And that's what led me to creating the New Fango Lawyer podcast, um, and really highlighting and having conversation around personal narrative and the way you know lawyers actually practice.
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There's a ridiculous breadth and spectrum and personalities and what people love.
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Like some lawyers like love reading books on like jury selection.
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Like that sounds horrible.
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Some love briefwriting, like to me that sounds horrible, but there's a place for everyone, and for me, it's really just about kind of smashing the paradigm and creating a new experience uh for both clients who interact and consume legal services and for you know the legal professionals themselves.
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Yeah, it's quite a refreshing sort of perspective, especially like you mentioned with inside of the legal landscape.
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It's almost got like that tech software vibe per se, um, you know, taking a different approach to practicing and being yourself and human first and human forward.
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But when you were doing that and you were starting out on your own, or you know, you were working with a partner back, you know, back at some time ago when I knew you, what was that like trying to break down those barriers in those early days?
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I can't imagine that it was just, you know, oh, this seems you know very normalized.
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This guy's coming in with a hoodie and a backwards hat and doesn't really care so much about the granularity of the law.
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He just wants to be a human first.
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Like, this is strange.
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Uh, what what did that look like?
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Like, tell it from your perspective, because I saw it from the outside in, but I'm curious, you know, how you broke down those barriers and what people thought of it in the early days.
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It's like a I call it a process of becoming.
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So it's like right when I first started practicing, I practiced with my father-in-law and I adapted to what how he practiced.
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He practiced for a long time, over three decades, and I kind of adapted to his cadence, right?
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The way in which he formed his day.
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Um, but very quickly, I identified, like, well, this is the type of client I want.
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So, like, within the first six months, I was like, I want to work with a particular kind of client.
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So I created like these avatars.
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One of the avatars I had when I was doing bankruptcy law was like post-divorce female, ages 35 to 45, college educated, has a job like a nurse, a teacher, drives a$15,000 vehicle and enjoys going to Disney World once a year.
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Like, and so I just created like these personas.
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And what I found is this allowed me to interact with and have clients and seek out clients and get very clear on when someone came in, like, this is a client for me.
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So this is where it kind of began, uh, was in client development, business development.
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And over time, right, I kind of started being like, okay, I don't have to wear a suit.
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I it's right, it shows up in appearance.
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Then it was kind of like, well, I can talk to clients like I talked to my friends.
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I'm just going to ask people like how their dogs are, how are their kids, you know, and really show up for people.
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And then over time, uh, you know, I just tried like bigger and bolder things, right?
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Like I did the tattoo event in the tell us more about that.
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What is that?
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No one knows.
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Yeah, so twice now I've hosted events where uh tattoos uh attorneys come and get tattoos because I was tired of doing the same networking where it was like legal education, drinking, legal education, drinking, and it just that's it was so rote, it was so boring, it was so stale.
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And so I was like, How can I create connection uh in an intimate setting?
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So I just reached out to a buddy uh who's got a lot of tattoos, and I was like, hey man, I have this idea.
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He's like, let's run with it.
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And so I've done it twice.
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The 16 attorneys total have gotten tattoos.
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Wow.
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I'll be I'll be doing another one here uh in the spring summer.
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There's even interest for attorneys in Europe.
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Uh are like, you should come do this here.
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And I was like, sure.
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You're gonna start franchising the tattoo.
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Heck yeah.
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People are like, I want to do this.
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I'm like, well, you can.
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I'm like, there's not you don't need permission from me.
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Like, this is go do it, go try these things.
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And I think that's really for me was the driving force of just trying.
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Just just being myself, it's not an act.
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And so, like, yeah, right.
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Like the first time you and I met at Cleocon, right?
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I roll up how I always do backwards hat, hoodie, and and I probably look the same.
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People are like, how do you guys know each other?
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And we're like, we wear backwards hated.
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Yeah, we're just everyday, everyday people, right?
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And I to I brought this to my practice about a year and a half ago, where I finally was like, I think this is what people connect to.
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So that was all my marketing branding.
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I at that time that was on my website.
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I changed my color scheme.
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I was like, I'm gonna call myself high-five legal, where it's high fives, not handshakes.
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And then you got taken down by Google.
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Then Google was like, no, attorneys can't have a vibe, like you're not real, right?
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And so it's like sometimes you fly too close to the sun, but to answer your question, like what was the reception, the receptivity to this is a couple things.
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One, the unexpected one was people started uh leaving Google reviews saying I was professional.
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Wow.
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Right?
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So it kind of is like, well, what's professional?
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What's professionalism?
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Is it wearing a suit and tie?
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Is it being trustworthy?
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Is it being communicative, receptive, providing a good experience?
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The other thing is I started having people being like, I filled out your law broker form because you were wearing a hoodie.
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I called you because you just looked like a friendly dude, right?
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Like I there was nothing, so I other attorneys like the reception was like, Wow, like this is fresh, this is different, this stands out.
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Um, I had right someone from the US attorney's office be like, Well, you have a lot of fun.
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Thank goodness someone's having fun.
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And so there was never any negativity across the industry where it's like, oh, who's this Patrick Petino guy?
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Why is he shaking things up?
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No.
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I ne I never had had anyone uh claim like you are like diminishing the profession or any anything like no negative feedback from clients, from prospective clients, from other attorneys.
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At least no one said it to my face.
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Overwhelmingly, it was very very positive.
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And I think my thought around this is that we've come to expect a certain right uh look and feel for an attorney.
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Yeah, right?
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The stereotypes we we all know them, and there's uh bad lawyer jokes, and this is why those lawyers still get clients, right?
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Why Bob, who's has no form on his website, maybe doesn't have a website, still gets clients, and he doesn't provide prov provide a very good experience because that's what people have come to expect.
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Where I think there's a whole new market for people to be delighted.
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Like you don't usually think of like delight and law in the same vein, but I think this is where we're going.
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Yeah, no, I I love it.
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So you're doing something different, you've built your business and your persona around that since day one, and you honed in on that and you built towards that.
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But it wasn't as simple as just that.
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Obviously, you had built your own business and your brand, you've now shifted into you know ALH Law Group, which is fantastic, and you've merged your brand into that as well.
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But let's talk a little bit about what it was like starting from scratch when you did go out on your own and you did build this persona and these avatars and getting kicked off of Google and flying too close to the sun, like it wasn't that easy.
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Um, like what were some of the unexpecteds that you know when you you jumped in on your own, you're like, okay, I I know how I want to be and what I want to do, but you know, what are some things that you just had some oversight on and and became a lot harder than you thought?
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So I s went off solo April 1st, 2020, right as the pandemic had shut the whole days, the good old days, the pandemic times.
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I actually built my first website for Patino Law Office um while I had like a hundred and six degree COVID fever.
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Um and so, right, I had like no filter.
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I was like probably delusional, just like no filter, just creating.
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And as you grow a firm and build out of practice and have systems and write processes and use your tech stack, unexpected thing for me, like a blind spot, was that not everyone uses the technology in the same way.
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Even if you're like this tool is supposed to be a hammer and it it's supposed to hammer nails.
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Someone can be like, no, that I'm gonna use that as a paperweight.
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And actually, it works as a paperweight.
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It's a weird paperweight, and so for me that that was kind of uh a blind spot.
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The other is scaling is much more difficult than just having a better system, having more efficiency, getting more clients.
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It's about having right fit, right people, right culture.
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Does your culture need to grow, expand, change, adapt to a growing business, to different personalities, right?
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Different sub brands basically within your business.
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Because I've iterated, I've tried a lot of different ways of operating a law firm from solo to like a distributed virtual practice to my current iteration of where we have a centralized hub in shared resources.
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We have staff that work anywhere from the Philippines to Germany and everywhere in between.
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And yeah, I mean, for me, it's just kind of one of those things you kind of think you just set it and can it will just go.
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A law firm takes a shit ton of maintenance, like a lot of maintenance, and if you use a lot of technology, even that in and of itself requires even more maintenance, yeah.
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So there's a lot to unpack there.
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Um, and for you, it wasn't just about scaling and the tech, you know, scalability and and things of that nature, but you also jammed and revamped, you know, practice areas and what you wanted to do and how you thought about that.
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Where did you sort of hit that point of no return where you're like, I'm not sure bankruptcy laws for me, or I don't see myself and the scalability of my business going into that direction?
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So let's see, this was June of 2024.
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I um hired a burnout coach because I kept burning out.
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I have tried and tried and tried.
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I do a lot of change, right?
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Change is tiring.
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I thrive in change.
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Um, and I had in a very short period of time, um, really in five years, there was so much change that happened.
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I was just exhausted.
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And so it really was doing a lot of self-reflection on like, well, how do I want to spend my time?
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What do I value?
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And the burnout coach is like, give yourself six months.
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And so at that time, that's when I I shut down my partnership um and went off.
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And I was like, I'm just gonna dive in bankruptcy.
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I've always been a bankruptcy attorney, I'm just gonna focus bankruptcy, I'm just gonna hit it hard.
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I'm gonna have systems, I'm going to have really good uh lead gen control, everything.
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I'm just going to really niche down and hammer it.
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And from a business perspective, man, I it was cranking.
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I mean, I was the busiest pride I've ever been.
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I had the most clients I ever had, I was making the most revenue I ever had, and I still just felt miserable.
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Like I didn't actually want to scale this business.
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And so when I really reflected, it was I liked everything about the business.
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I liked my processes, I liked my systems, I liked my branding, I liked my marketing, I liked all my automations, I liked my staff I was working with.
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I even really liked most of my clients.
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I didn't have a client problem.
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It came down to I was bored and tired of just doing the same thing.
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And it was the work, I was selling the wrong widget.
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And so I was just like, I reached December of 24 and Google suspended my Google listing.
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That's how I had built based my entire stream, and so it kind of was one of those things too.
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It's it's terrible in trying to get it back, and that was just a sign to be like you wanted to be done, now you're gonna be done.
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And so it was a process, it's like a grieving process of letting go of the very thing that's built your career, that you've identified with, that you've you know, people you've become known for, a subject matter expert.
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But I it wasn't like overnight.
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Like I had to be like, what else do I want to do?
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Who else what else do I want to be when I grow up?
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And actually, I think I reached out to around that time and I was like, hey Daniel, like I'm just exploring here what's next.
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It's not easy, but one day I mean, in part of that process, uh, I still continue to do bankruptcy for a period of time.
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I thought, oh, I'll just like keep this going.
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But then one day I did a consultation with someone who would be like, I consider like uh off my chart, who uh it would be like an absolute hell no.
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And I started getting more of these, and so I went upstairs, told my wife, I said, I'm done.
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I'm done I'm not doing I'm not just gonna like keep this going for keeping it going.
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I came downstairs, removed all the content from my website, and basically just took the whole thing down.
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Wow, uh huh.
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That's crazy.
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It was a radical act that was months, probably years in the making, quite honestly.
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I knew for a long time that you know I didn't want to do it, and it's scary.
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It's like scary to change.
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You hear this from a lot of lawyers.
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Like, well, I've only ever done X kind of law, like I can't do anything else.
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But look at you now.
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I'm living proof.
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I'm still alive, I'm still here.
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There you go.
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I'm still doing it.
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Okay, so wow.
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I didn't know that you just took everything down right uh overnight.
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Yeah, I just went onto Squarespace and deleted every I turned off every single page.
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I went to delete page, yeah, and just was like changed it to saying serving current clients, not taking any new ones.
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Wow.
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Done.
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Good for you.
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You know what?
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I mean, sounds like the burnout coach was one of the best things you could have done for yourself and you know, to transition to yourself and where you're at today.
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I mean, that's uh kudos to you, and you still keep and honing on the brand and what you've built as a you know personal function and have just transitioned into like what is the next iteration for Patrick Patino?
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Um so kudos to you.
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All right, before we wrap up here, I always like to you know have our guests share one or two pieces of advice.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:28.319
You've been, you know, longstanding, lots of things that have happened, you know, the ups, the downs, the ch challenges, the successes.
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:40.480
What are some things that you would want to share with the audience that maybe you wish you knew leading into it, or something that you just you know that resonates with you that you want to share, besides obviously tattoo events.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:45.359
Yeah, if anyone wants to put out a tattoo event in their in their city, hit hit me up.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:53.119
I think for me, in a profession that's very analytical, very technical, um, trust your gut, trust your intuition.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:19:03.119
There were several times throughout my journey where I felt what I was doing wasn't right, like a decision I was about to make or partnering with someone, or it just wasn't right.
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:08.559
And I knew it, I could feel it, but on paper, it just it looked like a good opportunity.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:15.359
And I just wish early on or through this process, through this journey, I would just have trusted my gut a lot more.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:16.559
Yeah, love it.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.200
Great advice, short, sweet, to the point.
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:20.319
Trust your gut.
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.680
Patrick, always a pleasure, good friend.
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:25.279
Thank you for jumping on.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.799
Um, I've enjoyed this and uh hopefully you did too.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:30.799
And I'm excited to share it with our audience.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.200
So thank you so much for joining us on Behind the Bet.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:34.000
No problem.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.119
Thanks, Daniel.
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.279
Hi everybody, be well, talk to you.
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.680
You've been listening to Behind the Beth, Powered by Law Brokers.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:52.799
The raw, honest conversations that explore what it really takes to build and run a law practice, the moments of doubt, the hard decisions, and the stories that rarely get told.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.400
Thanks for spending time with us.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.039
We'll see you next time on Behind the Betch.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.480
Behind every law firm is the version of a story that no one tells.
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:09.119
The pressure behind the title, the decisions made when no one is watching.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:20.000
Behind the bench, how if a law broker brings you the raw, untold truth of building and running a law practice to the unheard moment of your favorite legal choices?
00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:24.160
These are the conversations that do not make the website.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:26.320
This is behind the bent.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.079
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Behind the Bent.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:37.600
Today I am joined by the one and only Patrick Festino, also known as the New Bangled Lawyer.
00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:38.960
Welcome to the show, Patrick.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:39.920
Great to have you.
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:40.960
Thanks, Daniel.
00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:42.560
Thanks for having me.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:47.840
You and I have uh been on a similar journey the last couple of years.
00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:53.119
So I always of growth and trying and iterating and figuring things out.
00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.200
So I always appreciate our conversations.
00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:57.119
Yeah, it's uh it's been great.
00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:59.119
So now we're gonna take those conversations public.
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.000
Hopefully, you don't share anything that I've said that's confidential.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:05.519
Um, but no, we've known each other and and gone back some time.
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.359
I'm pretty sure we met on LinkedIn.
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:12.159
I don't know, I saw something like you got some lawyer tattoo about being nice or whatever that may be.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:13.439
And I was like, who is this guy?
00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:16.400
He's got a backwards hat, long hair, big beard.
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What you know, I need to know what who is this Patrick Patino?
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:24.400
So um, without further ado, why don't we pull some stuff back behind the curtain here?
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:27.519
For those that don't know Patrick Petino, who are you?
00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:28.799
How did we get here?
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:30.239
What's your story?
00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:31.040
Sure.
00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:39.200
So I like to say that I'm a lawyer, probably like fifth or sixth down on the list of ways that I identify.
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:54.480
Or if I introduced myself like recently, uh I was in a room and I introduced myself first as a novice potter, uh a coffee lover, uh, a dad, outdoor enthusiast, and then probably lawyer.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.120
Dog owner, I have a golden retriever who's awesome.
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He's my best friend named Bear.
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And so really that's uh informs a lot of how I practice is behind the scenes of kind of the way in which I practice in this very newfangled, fresh, approachable way, is just being me and leading with that first as opposed to a title or a practice area.
00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:29.280
Um, you know, so many lawyers you interact with, the first thing they lead off with is I'm a corporate lawyer, I'm a family lawyer.
00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:35.599
No one asks you what you did for a living, but that's very commonly what people lead with.
00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.919
Um, and for me, you know, uh law is important, right?
00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.199
Being a lawyer is important.
00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:55.520
It's you know, I spend a lot of my time, you know, a lot of my energy in building and iterating um and figuring things out because I don't want to just a legal profession that's doing things the way that's always been done.
00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:08.159
And that's what led me to creating the New Fango Lawyer podcast, um, and really highlighting and having conversation around personal narrative and the way you know lawyers actually practice.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:13.120
There's a ridiculous breadth and spectrum and personalities and what people love.
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:17.520
Like some lawyers like love reading books on like jury selection.
00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:18.800
Like that sounds horrible.
00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:37.199
Some love briefwriting, like to me that sounds horrible, but there's a place for everyone, and for me, it's really just about kind of smashing the paradigm and creating a new experience uh for both clients who interact and consume legal services and for you know the legal professionals themselves.
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:43.919
Yeah, it's quite a refreshing sort of perspective, especially like you mentioned with inside of the legal landscape.
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:53.680
It's almost got like that tech software vibe per se, um, you know, taking a different approach to practicing and being yourself and human first and human forward.
00:03:53.840 --> 00:04:05.039
But when you were doing that and you were starting out on your own, or you know, you were working with a partner back, you know, back at some time ago when I knew you, what was that like trying to break down those barriers in those early days?
00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:10.560
I can't imagine that it was just, you know, oh, this seems you know very normalized.
00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:17.519
This guy's coming in with a hoodie and a backwards hat and doesn't really care so much about the granularity of the law.
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.360
He just wants to be a human first.
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Like, this is strange.
00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:22.240
Uh, what what did that look like?
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:31.199
Like, tell it from your perspective, because I saw it from the outside in, but I'm curious, you know, how you broke down those barriers and what people thought of it in the early days.
00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.800
It's like a I call it a process of becoming.
00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:41.279
So it's like right when I first started practicing, I practiced with my father-in-law and I adapted to what how he practiced.
00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.800
He practiced for a long time, over three decades, and I kind of adapted to his cadence, right?
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The way in which he formed his day.
00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:55.920
Um, but very quickly, I identified, like, well, this is the type of client I want.
00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:01.839
So, like, within the first six months, I was like, I want to work with a particular kind of client.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.439
So I created like these avatars.
00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:22.000
One of the avatars I had when I was doing bankruptcy law was like post-divorce female, ages 35 to 45, college educated, has a job like a nurse, a teacher, drives a$15,000 vehicle and enjoys going to Disney World once a year.
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.040
Like, and so I just created like these personas.
00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:35.519
And what I found is this allowed me to interact with and have clients and seek out clients and get very clear on when someone came in, like, this is a client for me.
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:41.120
So this is where it kind of began, uh, was in client development, business development.
00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:46.319
And over time, right, I kind of started being like, okay, I don't have to wear a suit.
00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.560
I it's right, it shows up in appearance.
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Then it was kind of like, well, I can talk to clients like I talked to my friends.
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I'm just going to ask people like how their dogs are, how are their kids, you know, and really show up for people.
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And then over time, uh, you know, I just tried like bigger and bolder things, right?
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Like I did the tattoo event in the tell us more about that.
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What is that?
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No one knows.
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Yeah, so twice now I've hosted events where uh tattoos uh attorneys come and get tattoos because I was tired of doing the same networking where it was like legal education, drinking, legal education, drinking, and it just that's it was so rote, it was so boring, it was so stale.
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And so I was like, How can I create connection uh in an intimate setting?
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So I just reached out to a buddy uh who's got a lot of tattoos, and I was like, hey man, I have this idea.
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He's like, let's run with it.
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And so I've done it twice.
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The 16 attorneys total have gotten tattoos.
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Wow.
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I'll be I'll be doing another one here uh in the spring summer.
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There's even interest for attorneys in Europe.
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Uh are like, you should come do this here.
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And I was like, sure.
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You're gonna start franchising the tattoo.
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Heck yeah.
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People are like, I want to do this.
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I'm like, well, you can.
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I'm like, there's not you don't need permission from me.
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Like, this is go do it, go try these things.
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And I think that's really for me was the driving force of just trying.
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Just just being myself, it's not an act.
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And so, like, yeah, right.
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Like the first time you and I met at Cleocon, right?
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I roll up how I always do backwards hat, hoodie, and and I probably look the same.
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People are like, how do you guys know each other?
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And we're like, we wear backwards hated.
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Yeah, we're just everyday, everyday people, right?
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And I to I brought this to my practice about a year and a half ago, where I finally was like, I think this is what people connect to.
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.160
So that was all my marketing branding.
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I at that time that was on my website.
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I changed my color scheme.
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I was like, I'm gonna call myself high-five legal, where it's high fives, not handshakes.
00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.920
And then you got taken down by Google.
00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:11.360
Then Google was like, no, attorneys can't have a vibe, like you're not real, right?
00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:19.920
And so it's like sometimes you fly too close to the sun, but to answer your question, like what was the reception, the receptivity to this is a couple things.
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:27.600
One, the unexpected one was people started uh leaving Google reviews saying I was professional.
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Wow.
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Right?
00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:30.959
So it kind of is like, well, what's professional?
00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:32.240
What's professionalism?
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:33.840
Is it wearing a suit and tie?
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:35.759
Is it being trustworthy?
00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:40.559
Is it being communicative, receptive, providing a good experience?
00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:48.000
The other thing is I started having people being like, I filled out your law broker form because you were wearing a hoodie.
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:53.200
I called you because you just looked like a friendly dude, right?
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Like I there was nothing, so I other attorneys like the reception was like, Wow, like this is fresh, this is different, this stands out.
00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:10.000
Um, I had right someone from the US attorney's office be like, Well, you have a lot of fun.
00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:11.840
Thank goodness someone's having fun.
00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:18.080
And so there was never any negativity across the industry where it's like, oh, who's this Patrick Petino guy?
00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:20.720
Why is he shaking things up?
00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:21.360
No.
00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:39.360
I ne I never had had anyone uh claim like you are like diminishing the profession or any anything like no negative feedback from clients, from prospective clients, from other attorneys.
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At least no one said it to my face.
00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:46.080
Overwhelmingly, it was very very positive.
00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:52.799
And I think my thought around this is that we've come to expect a certain right uh look and feel for an attorney.
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:53.600
Yeah, right?
00:09:53.679 --> 00:10:01.039
The stereotypes we we all know them, and there's uh bad lawyer jokes, and this is why those lawyers still get clients, right?
00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:14.000
Why Bob, who's has no form on his website, maybe doesn't have a website, still gets clients, and he doesn't provide prov provide a very good experience because that's what people have come to expect.
00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.759
Where I think there's a whole new market for people to be delighted.
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:24.720
Like you don't usually think of like delight and law in the same vein, but I think this is where we're going.
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:26.799
Yeah, no, I I love it.
00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:35.919
So you're doing something different, you've built your business and your persona around that since day one, and you honed in on that and you built towards that.
00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.480
But it wasn't as simple as just that.
00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:48.000
Obviously, you had built your own business and your brand, you've now shifted into you know ALH Law Group, which is fantastic, and you've merged your brand into that as well.
00:10:48.240 --> 00:11:02.799
But let's talk a little bit about what it was like starting from scratch when you did go out on your own and you did build this persona and these avatars and getting kicked off of Google and flying too close to the sun, like it wasn't that easy.
00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:17.039
Um, like what were some of the unexpecteds that you know when you you jumped in on your own, you're like, okay, I I know how I want to be and what I want to do, but you know, what are some things that you just had some oversight on and and became a lot harder than you thought?
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:28.960
So I s went off solo April 1st, 2020, right as the pandemic had shut the whole days, the good old days, the pandemic times.
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:37.759
I actually built my first website for Patino Law Office um while I had like a hundred and six degree COVID fever.
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:42.080
Um and so, right, I had like no filter.
00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:46.000
I was like probably delusional, just like no filter, just creating.
00:11:46.320 --> 00:12:04.159
And as you grow a firm and build out of practice and have systems and write processes and use your tech stack, unexpected thing for me, like a blind spot, was that not everyone uses the technology in the same way.
00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:08.879
Even if you're like this tool is supposed to be a hammer and it it's supposed to hammer nails.
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.759
Someone can be like, no, that I'm gonna use that as a paperweight.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.600
And actually, it works as a paperweight.
00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.559
It's a weird paperweight, and so for me that that was kind of uh a blind spot.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:28.960
The other is scaling is much more difficult than just having a better system, having more efficiency, getting more clients.
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:34.240
It's about having right fit, right people, right culture.
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:42.720
Does your culture need to grow, expand, change, adapt to a growing business, to different personalities, right?
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:47.360
Different sub brands basically within your business.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:13:03.759
Because I've iterated, I've tried a lot of different ways of operating a law firm from solo to like a distributed virtual practice to my current iteration of where we have a centralized hub in shared resources.
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:09.200
We have staff that work anywhere from the Philippines to Germany and everywhere in between.
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:18.639
And yeah, I mean, for me, it's just kind of one of those things you kind of think you just set it and can it will just go.
00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:28.399
A law firm takes a shit ton of maintenance, like a lot of maintenance, and if you use a lot of technology, even that in and of itself requires even more maintenance, yeah.
00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:30.960
So there's a lot to unpack there.
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:45.840
Um, and for you, it wasn't just about scaling and the tech, you know, scalability and and things of that nature, but you also jammed and revamped, you know, practice areas and what you wanted to do and how you thought about that.
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:58.639
Where did you sort of hit that point of no return where you're like, I'm not sure bankruptcy laws for me, or I don't see myself and the scalability of my business going into that direction?
00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.360
So let's see, this was June of 2024.
00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:09.200
I um hired a burnout coach because I kept burning out.
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.919
I have tried and tried and tried.
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.399
I do a lot of change, right?
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:15.360
Change is tiring.
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:17.120
I thrive in change.
00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:27.440
Um, and I had in a very short period of time, um, really in five years, there was so much change that happened.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:29.519
I was just exhausted.
00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:34.960
And so it really was doing a lot of self-reflection on like, well, how do I want to spend my time?
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.080
What do I value?
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.960
And the burnout coach is like, give yourself six months.
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:44.720
And so at that time, that's when I I shut down my partnership um and went off.
00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.519
And I was like, I'm just gonna dive in bankruptcy.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:51.840
I've always been a bankruptcy attorney, I'm just gonna focus bankruptcy, I'm just gonna hit it hard.
00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:58.879
I'm gonna have systems, I'm going to have really good uh lead gen control, everything.
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:02.480
I'm just going to really niche down and hammer it.
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:07.200
And from a business perspective, man, I it was cranking.
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:10.080
I mean, I was the busiest pride I've ever been.
00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:18.159
I had the most clients I ever had, I was making the most revenue I ever had, and I still just felt miserable.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.519
Like I didn't actually want to scale this business.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:25.600
And so when I really reflected, it was I liked everything about the business.
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:34.639
I liked my processes, I liked my systems, I liked my branding, I liked my marketing, I liked all my automations, I liked my staff I was working with.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:36.879
I even really liked most of my clients.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.559
I didn't have a client problem.
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:42.799
It came down to I was bored and tired of just doing the same thing.
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.440
And it was the work, I was selling the wrong widget.
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:54.639
And so I was just like, I reached December of 24 and Google suspended my Google listing.
00:15:54.799 --> 00:16:02.240
That's how I had built based my entire stream, and so it kind of was one of those things too.
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:09.679
It's it's terrible in trying to get it back, and that was just a sign to be like you wanted to be done, now you're gonna be done.
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:23.759
And so it was a process, it's like a grieving process of letting go of the very thing that's built your career, that you've identified with, that you've you know, people you've become known for, a subject matter expert.
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.159
But I it wasn't like overnight.
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.639
Like I had to be like, what else do I want to do?
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.039
Who else what else do I want to be when I grow up?
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:38.320
And actually, I think I reached out to around that time and I was like, hey Daniel, like I'm just exploring here what's next.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:45.279
It's not easy, but one day I mean, in part of that process, uh, I still continue to do bankruptcy for a period of time.
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:47.600
I thought, oh, I'll just like keep this going.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:56.159
But then one day I did a consultation with someone who would be like, I consider like uh off my chart, who uh it would be like an absolute hell no.
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:01.279
And I started getting more of these, and so I went upstairs, told my wife, I said, I'm done.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.960
I'm done I'm not doing I'm not just gonna like keep this going for keeping it going.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:10.160
I came downstairs, removed all the content from my website, and basically just took the whole thing down.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:11.119
Wow, uh huh.
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:11.839
That's crazy.
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:17.920
It was a radical act that was months, probably years in the making, quite honestly.
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.680
I knew for a long time that you know I didn't want to do it, and it's scary.
00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:23.039
It's like scary to change.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.319
You hear this from a lot of lawyers.
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.240
Like, well, I've only ever done X kind of law, like I can't do anything else.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:29.359
But look at you now.
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:30.559
I'm living proof.
00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:31.839
I'm still alive, I'm still here.
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:32.400
There you go.
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:33.279
I'm still doing it.
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.039
Okay, so wow.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.559
I didn't know that you just took everything down right uh overnight.
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:44.559
Yeah, I just went onto Squarespace and deleted every I turned off every single page.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:51.599
I went to delete page, yeah, and just was like changed it to saying serving current clients, not taking any new ones.
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:51.920
Wow.
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:52.559
Done.
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:53.680
Good for you.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:54.319
You know what?
00:17:54.400 --> 00:18:00.880
I mean, sounds like the burnout coach was one of the best things you could have done for yourself and you know, to transition to yourself and where you're at today.
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:13.440
I mean, that's uh kudos to you, and you still keep and honing on the brand and what you've built as a you know personal function and have just transitioned into like what is the next iteration for Patrick Patino?
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.200
Um so kudos to you.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:20.240
All right, before we wrap up here, I always like to you know have our guests share one or two pieces of advice.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:28.319
You've been, you know, longstanding, lots of things that have happened, you know, the ups, the downs, the ch challenges, the successes.
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:40.480
What are some things that you would want to share with the audience that maybe you wish you knew leading into it, or something that you just you know that resonates with you that you want to share, besides obviously tattoo events.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:45.359
Yeah, if anyone wants to put out a tattoo event in their in their city, hit hit me up.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:53.119
I think for me, in a profession that's very analytical, very technical, um, trust your gut, trust your intuition.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:19:03.119
There were several times throughout my journey where I felt what I was doing wasn't right, like a decision I was about to make or partnering with someone, or it just wasn't right.
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:08.559
And I knew it, I could feel it, but on paper, it just it looked like a good opportunity.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:15.359
And I just wish early on or through this process, through this journey, I would just have trusted my gut a lot more.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:16.559
Yeah, love it.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.200
Great advice, short, sweet, to the point.
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:20.319
Trust your gut.
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.680
Patrick, always a pleasure, good friend.
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:25.279
Thank you for jumping on.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.799
Um, I've enjoyed this and uh hopefully you did too.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:30.799
And I'm excited to share it with our audience.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.200
So thank you so much for joining us on Behind the Bet.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:34.000
No problem.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.119
Thanks, Daniel.
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.279
Hi everybody, be well, talk to you.
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.680
You've been listening to Behind the Beth, Powered by Law Brokers.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:52.799
The raw, honest conversations that explore what it really takes to build and run a law practice, the moments of doubt, the hard decisions, and the stories that rarely get told.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.400
Thanks for spending time with us.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.039
We'll see you next time on Behind the Betch.
