Moving Toward Healing with Chi for Two

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The following podcast is part of the Mind, Body, Spirit
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dot FM podcast network.
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Hello and welcome to Back in Control Radio with Doctor
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David Hanscombe.
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Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Back in
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Control Radio with Doctor David Hanscomb. I'm your host, Tom Masters,
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and our guest today is d Wagner. She's a longtime counselor,
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dance movement therapist, semantic educator, and writer and presenter. She
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originated a mindful embodiment method called Chi for two. She
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stands for life force. The words for two call attention
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to the fact that our two person interactions affect our
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life force, our energy, and our nervous system functioning.
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Welcome, Thank you, Tom. I am happy to welcome D
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to the program. And she's somebody. How did you get
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a hold of me? D? Was it through Facebook?
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Now? It was through the Dynamic Healing Group. Oh, okay,
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that I am a new member.
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Okay, great? So what's going on? She has a process
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called First of all, where do you live?
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I live in Atlanta, Georgia?
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Okay a little bit, so I hear the accent. Yes,
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are you from the South pretty much?
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I am? I'm born and raised in Atlanta. Georgia.
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Okay, great, And so she inriciated a process you call
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it she for two. I don't want to butcher the
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name here, is that correct?
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G four two?
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Right? And I don't honestly know you're relatively new to
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the group, but I know you know a lot about
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the whole nerphigulogy of the body, the vegas nerve calming down.
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And the reason I quit my practice in general was
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because it turns out that probably these methods you're approaching,
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of those like it, is that healing occurs the calm
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nervous system. So I'm curious how your background, how you
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came into this world, and how did this all start
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for you.
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So I have been talking with Steve Stephen Porgis over
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the years. When I first found poly bagel theory, the
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most important thing in my mind about polyvagel theory was
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Steve naming the active state that is not fight flying, right.
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And so I've been working to understand the physiology of
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play dance Okay, and I have Chi for two is
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a method that invites awareness of two person interactions because
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we pattern our nervous system functioning in our earliest two
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person interactions.
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Right, So how long have you been doing this.
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I've been doing healing work. I'm counseling dance movement therapy,
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somadic movement therapy for thirty three years.
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Okay, and when did you connect up with Stephen Porges
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two thousand and fifteen. And I'm looking at your website
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it's called chif two dot com. And you're busy person.
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I am.
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I'm very excited today to tell you my latest understanding okay,
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about mobilization with play dance versus.
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Fight flight okay, and a practice that helps people feel
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this in their body.
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Okay.
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So play dance has three major physiological aspects. The first
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is that the vegas is helping coordinate breathing and swallowing.
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Okay, what do.
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You notice in your body when you hear the words
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coordinate breathing and swallowing?
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Sure, I would for me personally, you're.
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When you hear those words coordinate breathing and swallowing. You
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the longtime doctor that you are. What do you notice
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in your body?
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Into my head is connection? They feel connected?
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Yeah?
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Well, when we're babies, we get the oxygen and the
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nutrients in the umbilical cord, right and as we are
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born and the umbilical cordicates cut. We got to get
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the air in the nose going down the trachea, the
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food in the mouth going down the I mean it's
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a big shift, right. Coordination of breathing and swallowing at
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birth is life death. Absolutely So that first thing, first
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physiological aspect of play dance is a coordination of breathing
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and swallowing with the vegas that's coming from the brainstep Okay,
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and of course the vegas nerve, the tenth and longest
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cranial nerve, extends into the gut. Okay, it is so.
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The second aspect is that the vegas is helping the
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moving and the mixing of the content of the intestine.
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Okay, do you repeat that for me?
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Yeah, that the vegas is helping the moving and the
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mixing of the content of the intestines.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Can we back up just for a second. I'm not
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sure the audience understands the vegas nerve. Can you define?
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Can you just briefly mention the veggas nerve, where it
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goes and what it does?
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Absolutely so. As it's the tenth and longest cranial nerve,
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it comes down, it wanders, it has many branches. That's
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vegas means wandering. It has branches in the hard and
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these branches in the gut. It is the physiology of
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the mind body.
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Connection, right. Well, it's the biggest nerve of the parasympathetic
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pair of sympathetic nervousism, which is calming of course. And
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then you have the excitatory sympathetic nervous system. And it's
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not just back and forth, back and forth. They counteract
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each other, but it's very intricate dance that these two have.
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But in general, the vegas is the calming aspect of
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the whole autonom nervous system. So the first the first
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concept was.
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Just review for the audience, shall I say it again,
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the coordination of breathing.
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And swallowing, okay.
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And the second was the moving and the mixing of
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the content of the intestines.
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In the third.
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The neurotransmitters acetachline, dopamine, glutamate and some neuropeptides without adrenaline.
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Okay.
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So the idea that big moves, that athletic percussive moves
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can be mobilized with a set of coline, dopamine, gluetamate,
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and some neuropeptides without adrenaline relates to this striatum Okay,
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striatum is a deep brain region, right, yeah, that.
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And can you define for the audience the word chi Yeah.
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She is the life force in and around the body, okay,
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and people, it's another way of saying energy, right, And
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our energy is affected by our nervous system functioning.
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Right. So it's a tricky word for surgeons because we
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look at this and goo whatever. But what you're describing
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is real physiology, real function, And in medicine we've got
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stuck on structure and we've really lost a connection with
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physiology and function. So I want to jump to and
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can you give us a general flavor of why having
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I mean, is she a nurtural word or is it
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a positive word? Or did just describe a function? How exactly?
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Define word cheap function?
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In that when arms and legs and our voice move,
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when our voice, when our voice moves the air molecules,
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when our arms move the air molecules, when our legs
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move the air molecules, we are affecting the space around
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our bodies. So it's a great word because it means
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the energy both within and around our bodies, and that's
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affected by two person relationships, right, could I move into
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the practice that can help people feel this difference between
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mobilization with play dance and mobilization with fight flight related
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to the straatum. Okay, so the striatum.
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Go ahead, So what's your approach? So I guess the
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final question asked about Chi is there? Is she JUSTI
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finds that energy feel around the body, quantum physics, quantum mechanics,
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and all sort of other things. So this boarder just
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cause it corregulation? Yeah, if there's something that causes corregulation
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that when two people, when somebody laughs, other people at,
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somebody cries, other people cry, so definitely. Then as you
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know Sue Carter talks about oxytocin, Oh yeah, a connection drug. Yeah,
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that's very high in inflammatory and people don't thrive when
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they're disconnected, they actually die. So can you define she's
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just that life force? Is that a fair statement?
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Well? Chief for two. So if we can we go
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to the four to two part with this practice. Absolutely, So,
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if everyone who's listening, including you, were to reach your
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hand towards my voice. Okay, if you reach your hands
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towards my voice, and you imagine this period right after
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Earth when the straatum, which channels random moves into goal
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directed movement. Can you feel how a reach is a
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goal directed move? You want a reaction When you're a baby,
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your life is dependent on a reaction from a person
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who can carry you a water and food and shelter.
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If there's a forest fire right now, if there is
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a reaction. If you reach and the reaction happens, you
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feel met. You feel somebody's gotcha.
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Right.
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The chemistry that mobilizes that reach is the chemistry that
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mobilizes the striatum. There'll also be some gabba. Now if
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you reach again. If you reach again and you a mad,
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that I go all zombie on you. I go still face,
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like the still face experiments of Eedtronic. That reach can
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turn into a grab pull of what a reach grab
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pole like a drowning wrap kind of move. Okay, and
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the adrenaline mobilizes the mood.
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I'm telling d mobilize is what the movement. Okay.
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So the goal directed moves are where the coregulation comes in.
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That goal directed moves are designed to meet a goal.
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Okay.
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If the relational goal is not met, okay, then the
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shift comes into mobilization with adrenaline, with fight flight. Right
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because el Dopa makes dopamine. Dopamine makes nor an effort
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nor adrenaline, and that makes adrenaline.
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Right.
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So when the action, the behavior, the goal directed movement
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achieves the goal, then the mobilization is with play dance. Okay,
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now you're a practitioner and someone's coming to you, David,
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could you help me with this pain? That reach towards
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you can have mobilization likely has mobilization with fight flight.
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I'm in pain, I need some hell, what can you do?
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Can you help me?
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Right?
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And our bodies, a bill to know ourselves is always
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going to be greater than anyone outside of us. Right,
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But that infant wish, that small child wish for someone
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to know us, someone to fix us, someone to help us,
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is where we are in that dance of practitioner with
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client patient. Okay, to understand, sometimes that makes us as
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practitioners begin to reach, grab pull to the patient. I
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want to help you, and now we've just got to
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fight flight fast. Their fight flight causes my fight flight
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causes theirs causes mind when we realize that being able
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to offer an option on one hand and then another
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option on another hand against the eye movement from one
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side to the other side.
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Okay.
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That can turn the head from one side to the
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other side. If you, right now take a moment and
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turn your chin towards one shoulder okay, and then towards
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the other. Can you as you do this movement, can
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the listeners as you explore this movement begin to feel
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the origins of this movement down in the gut? This
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intuitive move that in many cultures means no, something smells off,
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something doesn't feel healthy to do. This is a powerful
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move and we can really only do this move when
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we feel safe for you to look away from me
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the pactician and expose this vulnerable part of your neck.
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What we say and chief for two is if no
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is not an option, yes is not a choice. So
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we're working on helping support a sense of choice to
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help shift that fight flight. I gotta have help, I
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gotta have help. You need to help me. You need
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to help me into a sense of Can I support
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you in a way that your body becomes more capable
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of supporting itself. And finally, if you wrap your arms
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around your hands around your arms and make kind of
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a cocoon for yourself, and then you begin to do
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this contralateral movement like the head going side to side,
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into your shoulders, into your rib cage, into your head.
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This creates internal massage, okay, which can help to work
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that adrenaline through the body. I was hoping you would
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be able to have the answer, you would be able
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to fix it. It could be a quick fix. It's not
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a quick fix. But there's some options. There's this on
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one hand, there's this on the other hand. What's it
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like to hear me say this? We can say to
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our clients, to our patients. So the reach that ideally
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is for connection for codregulation is mobilized ideally with acetocholine, dopamine, glutinate,
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and some neuropeptides. The goal directed movement achieves the ultimate goal,
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which is I'm connected with someone who cares. I don't
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need to trust this person. In fact, this person does
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not want me to trust them. They want to help me,
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support me in trusting my own body. So the contralateral
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movements of well, there's this thing to consider and of
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this other thing, and that can begin the contralateral movement
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that helps work the adrenaline through the body and begins
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to shift that fear response into some mobilization with play dance.
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So this has jumped to the current moment. So you
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have a women's website called Chief for two. So if
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I call you a schedule appointment, do you do in
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person work, online work? How do you work in what
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would be some of the first steps you were to
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work with? In other words, what are some of the
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range of things that you do? So it sounds like
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you do some initial warm up exercises. Do you go
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into actual play dance through this whole process?
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So the goal is for all movement eventually to become
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mobilized with play dance. But when mobile, when movement has
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been inhibited due to trauma, which is as we know
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from Peter Levine, is an inhibition of movement, when it
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wakes up, it's going to be mobilized with faith flight
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because we know that from Peter Levine's work, if it
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had been safe to move this way, I wouldn't have
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inhibited it. When I awaken it, I'm in faith flight
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and that's where the catching the dancing with shifts it.
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So I have a training program in Cheat for two
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to your training program approved by is META, the International
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Somatic Movement Education and Therapists Association. It's international we have
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coaches all over the world.
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Wow, So in your own so it's just online type
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work that you do.
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It can be virtual, It certainly can also be in person.
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In person is the most powerful, but it's a new method.
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So we figured out how to do it online as well,
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so that we could chain people all over the world.
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So then how about the dance rhythm part of it?
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How do you do that or what do you do
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on that?
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So I have my setup here. I know your listeners
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will only just hear me say this, but my camera
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is up high on a shelf, and so I can
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move around my office and invite you to come to standing.
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We are we are animal beings. We feel safest when
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we know we can move through space. Right, And then
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I can also put it at a lower level and
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match your body like sitting in a desk. We can
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put it on the floor and come roll around on
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the floor. So moment, yes, And it's interesting when Steep
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came up with the new measurement that he came up
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with that had the three positions, I went, that's how
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we do our camera. You know, the three measurements from
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lying to see to just standing.
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Okay, okay, then how is a session. Then how many
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sessions do you see effects? In HOMY sessions do you
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see effects?
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There are effects that can occur in one session. Sessions
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are fifty minutes. And then there's some therapists that do
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like a package of six where they focus on certain practices.
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The training is a two year training because it's a
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mindful embodiment method. It's designed to change autonomic nervous system functioning,
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and so practicing like yoga or tai chi where it's
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a little at a time, but it's always within the
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dance of relationship.
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Okay, And do you do this with another person? When
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you do you just assigne people together or if people come.
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As a cup or friends or a client therapist is
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two people?
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Oh I see, I got you?
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Okay for a long so chief or two is recognizing
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how unconsciously. All therapy that works right is diadic therapy
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that replicates key infant parent developmental interactions.
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Okay, And what type of people come to you? Are
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there is any pain, anxiety, depression? What?
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Sure? All of it? All of it? Yeah?
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Anybody that feels stressed? Is that a first statement?
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Sure?
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And like for instance, someone in pain, we might a
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chiefer to embodiment. Coach might invite the person to notice
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the place where the pain they're feeling at the most
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at this moment. Okay, might even invite could your hand
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go to that pain? Okay, so there's empathy. And then
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what movement might be wanting to happen? So what goal
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directed movement? And then how can we do this practice
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so your goal directed movement that didn't achieve the goal
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originally can now achieve the goal?
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Okay? What kind of results do you see? Said? Usually
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a package is like six sessions? What wereld I? I
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came to you my worst part of my chronic painter deal?
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What outcomes to you? Generally? See? And I realize it
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doesn't work for everybody, None of this does. But in general,
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what would be a good outcome for one of your clients?
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It varies a great deal. Someone who might come for
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six sessions and maybe has their own therapist and takes
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this somatic part back to their own therapist, doctor, pt
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personal trainer usually see that the chief or two adds
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a lens that allows everything they do to help when
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they can begin to see it through this lens of
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baby me, kid me, neonate me, got movement, inhibited and
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I needed this. It becomes more possible for their other
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helping professionals to become that for them, for them to
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see and have a conscious role in the help from
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the other person. Some people stay and do one on
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one work for years, just like you would go get
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work with your personal trainer for years.
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Right, Okay, so these practitioners, I share your website which
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you see the founder is Carolyn Summer. Summer is what's
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your role with the institute.
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I'm not sure where.
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The name you said as people are seeing, Oh, that.
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Was just somebody. It was somebody who was saying that
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they liked what we were doing. That was a people
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that do tutoring for students. Now I'm the originator of
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she i am and my son who's a Taiti cheater,
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and Caroline Gephardt who's a psychotherapist a yoga teacher, and
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Mary Mary Mary Lou Davidson who's a body worker and
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a singer. They helped me develop it. And then we
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have other folks and coaches.
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And so so you trained coaches, if I understand this correctly,
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we trained.
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Yeah, practitioners from all kinds of backgrounds. We've got pediatricians, nurses,
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ots as well as psychotherapists who are training in chif
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for two.
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Yeah, I mean I think it was just wonderful. I
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mean I when I was in practice, these were I
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mean the essence of healing is basically just calming down.
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I mean, your body calms down, you feel safe, and
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then your body heals on its own. It doesn't matter
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exactly how you get there. So, yeah, this is wonderful.
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So how can we access you? Do you say you
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have many people around the world that you've trained. Yes, okay,
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So is there like a catalog or.
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On the website, And again there's there's we're still small group.
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There's like forty people who there's thirty something people who
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are certified coaches. There's I think fifteen trainees at this moment, okay.
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And on the website there's a find a Practitioner place.
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Okay.
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Yeah. But what I'm excited about and excited about meeting
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you about when there's new neuroscience that is looking at
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two person interactions, multiple interactions and the place cells in
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the brain and the geometry of connection. So the chief
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or two practice like reach ed Tronic experienced reach grab
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pool with me, and he said I'm really interested in
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this reach, the fact that we can do big athletic moves.
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It's possible with no adrenaline. It allows us to stay present, right,
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and it's gonna affect pain because the catecholamines are so
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related to pain and the straatum. The goal. You know
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in the buzzy thing for shots, when you get the
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child to count the monkeys, they're doing the amazing reach
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grab pool where your thumb captures these three fingers and
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you use your finger to count goal directed movement, achieving
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the goal and an important two person interaction.
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Okay, well, thank you very much to me on the show,
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and I'm excited you're part of our scientific group. You've
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gone a great direction, and so our website is cheaper
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to c hi FO r TW dot com. At the
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bottom there is a place to find a coach, and
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there's training and you have done a lot of stuff.
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This is fantastic.
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I am so honored to have had this dance with
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you today.
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Yeah, well, thank you very much.
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I'd like to thank our guest Dee Wagner for being
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on the show today and sharing how she uses dance
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movement and the science of polyvagel theory to help clients
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calm their nervous system and feel safe so they can heal.
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I'm your host, Tom Masters, reminding you to be back
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next week for another episode of Back in Control Radio
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with doctor David Hanscombe, and in the meantime, be sure
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to visit the website at www dot backincontrol dot com.
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Thanks for listening today and join us next week for
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Back in Control Radiu