"Why do I keep attracting toxic friends?" - Clinical psychologist and energy healer on self-love and toxic friendships

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Sadaf: Friendship is supposed to
feel safe, nourishing, grounding.

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But what happens when a friendship starts
leaving you feeling anxious, drained,

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insecure, or even ashamed of yourself?

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Eilat Aviram: If you are consistently
walking away from time with a

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particular person, feeling low-

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Sadaf: In a world where everyone
online is suddenly a narcissist and

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every uncomfortable interaction is
labeled as toxic, how do we actually

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know the difference between a
genuinely unhealthy relationship and a

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relationship that's simply triggering
something unresolved inside of us?

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Eilat Aviram: Well,
discomfort is a massive

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Sadaf: gift.

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Is your body responding?

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In this episode, I interview clinical
psychologist, hypnotherapist, energy

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healing teacher, and bestselling
author, Eilat Aviram, whose work on

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self-love has helped thousands of
people reconnect with their inner truth.

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Eilat Aviram: When you feel reluctance
or resentment, pay attention.

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Sadaf: We explored toxic friendships
through the lens of the nervous

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system, trauma, boundaries,
self-trust, and emotional patterns.

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We talk about why some people repeatedly
find themselves in painful dynamics, why

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empaths often override their instincts,
how narcissistic dynamics actually work,

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and why discomfort may be one of the
most important signals our body gives us.

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This episode is about learning
how to listen to yourself again.

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Because as Eilat says,
the real question is…

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Eilat Aviram: If I loved myself,
what would I choose to do now?

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Sadaf: You're the self-love lady.

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I wanna ask you about toxic relationships,
particularly friendships, and w- what is

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happening inside me or inside a person
when we are choosing to keep or engage in

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a relationship that we perceive as toxic?

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Eilat Aviram: I think the beautiful thing
you're saying that I'm the self-love

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lady is because I teach self-love, right?

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And I teach self-loving decision-making.

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And if you're making decisions that are
leading to situations that you're not

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happy with or that leave you feeling
used or not seen or just unhappy, it's

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an actual skill set to make choices.

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Sadaf: Mm.

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Eilat Aviram: And it's a skill
set to have relationships, and

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it's a skill set to self-care.

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So the g- really good news is
that it's something we can learn.

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And often, if you don't realize that
someone's toxic or you know someone's

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toxic but you choose to stay, you probably
have learned that skill set somewhere.

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Sadaf: What would you say
is a toxic friendship?

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Eilat Aviram: But if you think
about a friendship, what is

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the point of a friendship?

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It's supposed to be a mutually
satisfying, beneficial experience, right?

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And so if you are consistently, not
sometimes, consistently walking away

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from time with a particular person
feeling low, feeling, um, like you've

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been judged, feeling insecure, if
you, you, you feel like your energy's

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just been drained, if you're doubting
yourself, all of those are signs that

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that relationship is not healthy for you.

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'Cause think of the word toxic.

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It means poisonous, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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So if something is poisonous for you,
you will have some sort of effects.

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So you really do need… Is it
p- is it toxic, or is it a tonic?

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Sadaf: Okay, so this is where I
struggle a little bit because how do

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I know that it's not my own stuff?

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Like, let's say I have an issue with my
body image, and I'm insecure about…

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I th- I perceive myself to be fat,
and then I think when somebody else

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is talking about body image stuff-
Mm … that they are referring to me.

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So it's a direct attack on me when maybe
the other person doesn't mean that at all,

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and I walk away from that interaction-

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Eilat Aviram: Mm

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…
Sadaf: feeling like they made a dig at
me when it had nothing to do with me.

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It was just their own stuff.

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Eilat Aviram: So how do you know
when it's toxic, and how do you know

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when it's just triggering for you?

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Sadaf: Yes.

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Eilat Aviram: I think you
probably see toxic friends will

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be toxic across the board usually.

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Generally, you'll be able to
identify somebody as toxic in a

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friendship or, uh, as a boss or
as a parent or as your sibling or

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as a, as a romantic relationship.

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Usually it will be somebody who
is not very considerate of you.

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Um, they'll be much more
involved with themselves.

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They will probably make much of the
conversation either about themselves, or

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if it's about you, there'll be an edge
of they're putting you down, they're

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judging you, they're baiting you.

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This is quite a general thing.

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Obviously, it gets quite subtle.

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If other people don't find that person
upsetting or toxic, then there's

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definitely something for you to look at
and go, "What is it about this person

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that triggers me?" And I think that's
the main question, anyway, that you

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and I are gonna be discussing, because,
uh, I'm saying that I teach self-loving

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decision-making, which means that you're
always needing to pause in the moment of

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any choice you make, and that choice can
be, do I feel like seeing this person?

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Do I wanna leave early?

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Do I still wanna be
friends with this person?

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You do need to check in with yourself.

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At the end of the day, what's toxic
or not toxic for you, you are, are

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the only one who can know that.

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Is there ever an

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Sadaf: answer that goes something
like, well, this is not necessarily

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a toxic relationship or a toxic
friendship, it's just a friendship

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where people are interacting or…

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and people are being people, and it's just
an imperfect one, because no friendships

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or relationships are ever perfect.

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Mm. And how do I know that it's
one where I might be losing

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out by labeling it toxic?

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Mm. I feel like walking
away is a very easy answer.

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It's an easy and a difficult answer.

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It's difficult because, you know,
it's obviously painful, and you

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did see something in the person
that you wanted to be friends with.

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Eilat Aviram: Mm.

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Sadaf: Um, but it's also easy, because
it, it doesn't acknowledge that, uh, the

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other person is human, and you are human,
and no relationships are gonna be perfect.

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Eilat Aviram: True.

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Sadaf: And it's so easy to… I see
that on Instagram so much, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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Like, you just, like, label,
oh, like, oh, I'm… Oh, this

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is the year I'm gonna walk away.

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But if you walk away from
everyone, then you're not gonna

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have anyone, any friends left.

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Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

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Sadaf: So how do I know that
it's really a toxic relationship?

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I mean, you did, you did describe that,
but a, a bit more, like, in the nuance,

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or whether it's a friendship that I
want to maybe work on and, um, and fix.

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Eilat Aviram: You know what I love
about what you're saying, and the way

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that you're asking it, and you haven't
said it explicitly, r- maybe you did,

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but I feel like what you're asking is,
"If I walk away, I'm also giving up an

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opportunity for self-development," right?

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If you're with a situation or a person
who triggers you, and it really is your

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issue, like you were speaking about
the weight thing- If you always avoid

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anything that mentions your weight, you're
going to be avoiding a lot of stuff.

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Mm. And you're never going to have
the opportunity to heal a place that's

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obviously a sensitive area for you.

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So if you are a short, you know- Mm
… uh, or, um, height challenged human, and

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you hate short jokes or you hate being
around people who make you feel shorter,

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you're gonna be avoiding a lot of people.

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Um, if you're insecure about any part
of yourself, you, you're going to

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land up avoiding things as opposed
to dealing with them and growing and

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becoming more whole and stronger.

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So I think in a way, a short answer
to your complex question is you're

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not looking for once-off instances.

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If your friend's having a bad day or if
they've lost their parent and they're

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having a patch where they're really in a
funk and they don't have capacity to help

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you, or they're overwhelmed with work, or
they have financial stress and they treat

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you not as considerately as you'd like, or
they're quite snappy with you during that

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period of time, that's just relationships.

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Mm. That's humans being humans.

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But if you generally still feel loving
of the person and you understand

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they're in a tough patch, that's fine
and that's something to work through.

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But what you're looking for is patterns.

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Mm. If somebody consistently treats you
in a derisive way, they consistently bait

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you, you find out that they're speaking
behind your back, they're saying stuff

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behind you that they wouldn't say to your
face, um, you try and have conversations

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to resolve an issue with them and they
won't talk to you or they, they make you

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feel like you're crazy, they gaslight you.

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They, "No, there's nothing wrong. No,
you're just imagining it. You must be

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having a bad day." When you consistently
walk away from that person feeling not

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good, that we could define as toxic.

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And I also don't think it's so…
We should be so quick to jump and

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go, "This is toxic," and label it.

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It's just this maybe, excuse me,
maybe a kinder way of saying it

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is, "This is not good for me."

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Sadaf: Mm.

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"
Eilat Aviram: This is not serving me.

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This is not-" Yeah … "nourishing me,
therefore I will remove myself from it."

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Not, "You're toxic, I'm gonna ghost you."

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Sadaf: Or, "I'm gonna cancel you."

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Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

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Sadaf: Yeah.

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Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

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That's, that's toxic in itself.

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Sadaf: Yes, that's true.

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Well, that actually leads me to what
I… My next question, which was how

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do I avoid being the toxic friend?

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Eilat Aviram: Friendship
is a mutual thing.

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It's a, it's a give/take.

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It's a you and me.

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You get to talk, and I get to talk.

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I ask you how you are,
you ask me how I am.

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I actually care about
what you're saying to me.

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You care about what I'm saying to you.

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If you find that you are bored with
what somebody's saying, and you don't

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really care, and you're asking them
out of obligation or politeness, but

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actually you're sort of going, "Yawn,
yawn," inside, you have to ask yourself

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what you're doing with that person.

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I think probably if you are being
the toxic one, I would imagine

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that you feel quite unsatisfied
with the relationship, too.

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When we perceive danger, we get tense.

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So you asked about what is
the body actually showing us.

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The autonomic nervous system goes into
fight/flight, and it does it in degrees.

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So when we say the words like danger in a
relationship, it can sound a bit extreme.

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Or if I'm speaking about fight/flight
and we're talking about a friendship,

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it, it does sound a little bit severe.

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But your body does respond in
various degrees to danger, and

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the danger could be, "I, I… That
person just said something mean.

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That was nasty," or, "I feel judged," or,
"I don't feel emotionally safe right now."

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Your nervous system will
behave like that buck.

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So your skin will tighten.

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Your breathing will
become a little shallower.

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Your muscles, your muscles will tighten.

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You'll become hyperalert.

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Essentially, your body's preparing
to either fight off something

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or run away from it or freeze
if things are really bad.

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You know that feeling where you're
like, "Ugh, I don't-" Yeah … actually

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know what to do or what to say right
now." Sometimes that's your body that

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actually gone into a freeze state.

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So if you are attuned to your body,
you can pick up those signs, and we

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will normally feel it as, "Oh, I'm
feeling a bit uncomfortable," or those

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signs of stress or anxiety or tension.

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Or the, "Oh, I'm feeling a bit hot.

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Ooh, there's no air in here." Um, "Oh,
this… I'm feeling uncomfortable.

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Something about this is making me
uncomfortable." So we do… Our

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bodies do pick it up quite quickly,
and it is our nervous system giving

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us a signal that something about
the situation is not completely safe

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Sadaf: That's amazing, except
what if I have social anxiety?

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Eilat Aviram: Well, then it's your
system telling you that anytime

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you're around people- People,
that's not safe … unsafe.

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Okay.

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That you perceive it as unsafe.

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So again, it's that perception thing
of what's okay for you might not be

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okay- Right … for someone else.

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Yeah.

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But so for you, social
situations might be- Mm.

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Sadaf: Yes

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…
Eilat Aviram: you know, and
your fight/flight kicks in.

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Um, for someone else, they'd
be completely relaxed.

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Sadaf: If I am with someone who is
making me feel this way, I wonder what is

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going on for the other person that they
are behaving this way, and I wonder if

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just becoming curious about that might,
um, ease the tension a little bit and

222
00:13:28,419 --> 00:13:31,529
dissolve some of that poison or toxicity

223
00:13:33,326 --> 00:13:34,206
Eilat Aviram: It depends

224
00:13:34,366 --> 00:13:34,746
Sadaf: Okay

225
00:13:35,706 --> 00:13:36,866
Eilat Aviram: Classic psychologist answer.

226
00:13:36,986 --> 00:13:37,016
Yes.

227
00:13:37,566 --> 00:13:39,276
It depends Yeah … it's
all about the context.

228
00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:46,176
If that person tends towards narcissism,
clinical narcissism, what I mean by that

229
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is it's all about them, then you asking
them more about them is just going to make

230
00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:57,046
the situation more of what it already is.

231
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Does that make sense?

232
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Sadaf: Yes.

233
00:14:00,685 --> 00:14:02,955
Eilat Aviram: If the other person
is behaving that way because

234
00:14:02,965 --> 00:14:04,786
something's wrong, they're upset…

235
00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:08,506
Sorry.

236
00:14:08,846 --> 00:14:09,435
That's okay.

237
00:14:10,026 --> 00:14:14,096
If they're upset, if something's been
happening in their life and you are able

238
00:14:14,096 --> 00:14:18,745
to… Or if they have social anxiety,
and you're able to ease them into feeling

239
00:14:18,745 --> 00:14:20,615
more comfortable, then it will help.

240
00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:28,425
But I again want to say this, this, what
this conversation isn't about a once-off

241
00:14:28,425 --> 00:14:31,555
situation where you're with someone
and it makes you feel uncomfortable.

242
00:14:31,835 --> 00:14:35,176
Although, if you feel properly
uncomfortable with someone and the

243
00:14:35,176 --> 00:14:38,785
first time you meet them, you should
probably take that very seriously.

244
00:14:39,025 --> 00:14:42,545
Never, ever override that or ignore that.

245
00:14:43,955 --> 00:14:46,366
I'll come back to that just now
if we need to, because there's

246
00:14:46,385 --> 00:14:48,296
some amazing studies about that.

247
00:14:49,675 --> 00:14:52,155
What we're looking for is patterns.

248
00:14:52,765 --> 00:14:57,326
If somebody consistently makes you
feel that way, if somebody always

249
00:14:57,355 --> 00:15:02,376
behaves that way or almost always,
that's the thing that's problematic.

250
00:15:02,885 --> 00:15:05,925
Not once off here and there,
that's just, just humans.

251
00:15:06,515 --> 00:15:07,245
Does that make… Is

252
00:15:07,245 --> 00:15:08,346
Sadaf: that- Yes, yes, absolutely.

253
00:15:08,375 --> 00:15:11,645
I think, uh, what you said about when
you meet somebody the first time and

254
00:15:11,695 --> 00:15:14,285
you feel uncomfortable, that's really
interesting, 'cause I've had a few

255
00:15:14,296 --> 00:15:18,505
friendships where the first time I met
the person, I was like, "Ooh, I don't know

256
00:15:18,506 --> 00:15:22,295
if I wanna be friends with this person,"
or, "I need to beware of this person."

257
00:15:22,305 --> 00:15:26,946
Mm. And then subsequently we went
on to be very good friends, but the

258
00:15:26,946 --> 00:15:34,135
friendship, in all instances, there
weren't many, but in all instances ended.

259
00:15:34,945 --> 00:15:35,225
Eilat Aviram: Oh.

260
00:15:35,445 --> 00:15:41,476
Sadaf: And my initial impression of
the person was- Correct … correct.

261
00:15:41,986 --> 00:15:44,405
Eilat Aviram: So I like to say
that people come with a pamphlet.

262
00:15:45,035 --> 00:15:47,446
People arrive with… And
they hand you a pamphlet.

263
00:15:47,446 --> 00:15:50,715
"This is who I am. This is how I am.
These are the problems you and I are

264
00:15:50,715 --> 00:15:54,825
going to have." People do this with,
um, romantic relationships all the

265
00:15:54,826 --> 00:16:00,015
time, and I always ask questions in my
therapy space when somebody says they've

266
00:16:00,025 --> 00:16:03,655
met someone and they're obviously,
you know, excited about this person.

267
00:16:04,005 --> 00:16:08,896
I ask them a lot of questions right at
the start, because we get the pamphlet at

268
00:16:08,896 --> 00:16:13,015
the beginning, I'll explain what I mean
in a moment, and we read the pamphlet,

269
00:16:13,355 --> 00:16:17,815
and then we completely ignore it, and
we carry on as though we never got the

270
00:16:17,815 --> 00:16:24,038
information I like to ask people right
at the start, "What do you foresee the

271
00:16:24,048 --> 00:16:26,288
problems with this relationship might be?"

272
00:16:26,898 --> 00:16:27,138
Sadaf: Oh, so-

273
00:16:27,208 --> 00:16:29,838
Eilat Aviram: And they are so accurate.

274
00:16:30,368 --> 00:16:33,887
They can tell me right at the
start, "Oh, I think… I don't know.

275
00:16:33,887 --> 00:16:35,168
I'm gonna make stuff up.

276
00:16:35,168 --> 00:16:37,297
I think his mother might be an issue.

277
00:16:37,668 --> 00:16:39,867
I think she's a little bit clingy.

278
00:16:40,227 --> 00:16:44,708
Uh, I, I think they, they won't get
along with my friends." They, they

279
00:16:44,708 --> 00:16:48,308
can tell you right at the beginning,
and then they go forward anyway.

280
00:16:48,508 --> 00:16:52,147
They have the whole relationship, and
it ends for the reasons they identify

281
00:16:52,148 --> 00:16:55,138
at the beginning, like what you've
just said about the friendships.

282
00:16:55,168 --> 00:16:57,577
Sadaf: And I guess the same thing
applies to friendships as well.

283
00:16:57,778 --> 00:16:58,518
Eilat Aviram: 100%.

284
00:16:58,947 --> 00:16:59,628
You know.

285
00:16:59,778 --> 00:17:02,377
You do know, and this
is, this is what I teach.

286
00:17:02,398 --> 00:17:07,848
This is my huge thing because self-loving
decision-making is about trusting

287
00:17:07,848 --> 00:17:12,937
what you know, and this whole toxic
friendship, relationship conversation

288
00:17:12,947 --> 00:17:14,698
is about trusting what you know.

289
00:17:15,918 --> 00:17:17,157
It really is.

290
00:17:17,647 --> 00:17:21,107
I mentioned just now there's really
interesting research on people picking

291
00:17:21,127 --> 00:17:23,708
up something about someone else.

292
00:17:24,107 --> 00:17:28,608
In a book called What We Can Learn
from Psychopaths, so if anyone wants

293
00:17:28,608 --> 00:17:30,177
to follow up on that, go ahead.

294
00:17:31,958 --> 00:17:36,907
They quoted this study where they
wanted to see if psychopaths are

295
00:17:36,907 --> 00:17:43,027
identifiable, if we can pick up if
there's somebody, you know, um, in

296
00:17:43,028 --> 00:17:45,288
our space that has that tendency.

297
00:17:45,708 --> 00:17:51,228
But to begin with, they were interested
in how psychopaths pick their victims.

298
00:17:51,837 --> 00:17:54,277
Why do they choose that
person and not that person?

299
00:17:54,287 --> 00:17:58,587
Why could this person walk right
past, but that one will be targeted?

300
00:17:59,348 --> 00:18:04,488
And so they did a quite horrifying
study, which is that they collected a

301
00:18:04,488 --> 00:18:07,658
group of… They did it in two parts.

302
00:18:07,658 --> 00:18:16,647
They collected, um, convicted psychopaths,
and they asked a whole lot of, uh, regular

303
00:18:16,647 --> 00:18:22,938
folk to walk down a corridor, and they
videoed them walking down a corridor.

304
00:18:23,357 --> 00:18:27,107
Then they showed those videos to
the convicted psychopaths, people

305
00:18:27,107 --> 00:18:31,468
who are, like, very clinically and
criminally psychopathic, and they

306
00:18:31,517 --> 00:18:37,187
asked them to identify which of
those people they would victimize.

307
00:18:37,197 --> 00:18:39,048
Who would they pick as a victim?

308
00:18:39,957 --> 00:18:46,077
With disturbing accuracy, they picked the
people who have trauma in their history.

309
00:18:46,188 --> 00:18:46,638
Sadaf: Wow.

310
00:18:48,374 --> 00:18:51,814
Okay, but I have a question there, because
don't we all have trauma in our history?

311
00:18:52,294 --> 00:18:58,884
Eilat Aviram: They picked people who
would be over-empathic, who would not

312
00:18:58,893 --> 00:19:03,993
be able to set boundaries very well,
who would not listen to themselves.

313
00:19:04,453 --> 00:19:04,893
Sadaf: Wow.

314
00:19:05,574 --> 00:19:08,733
Eilat Aviram: So they did it with
the clinical, uh, psychopaths and

315
00:19:08,734 --> 00:19:10,483
saw that they are very accurate.

316
00:19:10,584 --> 00:19:13,034
Then they also did it
with university students.

317
00:19:13,034 --> 00:19:19,703
They assessed people to see people
who tend towards, um, narcissistic or

318
00:19:19,754 --> 00:19:23,533
particularly, um, psychopathic tendencies.

319
00:19:23,814 --> 00:19:28,414
So if they had traits of that, they
asked those people also to watch videos.

320
00:19:28,414 --> 00:19:31,403
They did the same thing, and
they were also very accurate.

321
00:19:31,463 --> 00:19:32,213
Sadaf: Hmm.

322
00:19:32,253 --> 00:19:35,193
Eilat Aviram: So then they became
curious, and they thought, "Well, can the

323
00:19:35,203 --> 00:19:40,813
victims, the empaths, can they recognize
a psychopath if they met them?" Hmm.

324
00:19:40,963 --> 00:19:45,834
And the answer was yes, and it's in
response to your question about the body.

325
00:19:46,723 --> 00:19:48,233
The body recognized it.

326
00:19:49,363 --> 00:19:53,904
There is something in our brain
that registers some level of

327
00:19:53,953 --> 00:19:57,123
interactive relationship danger.

328
00:19:58,183 --> 00:20:01,453
They had the hairs at the
back of their necks going up.

329
00:20:01,463 --> 00:20:02,683
They got the goosebumps.

330
00:20:03,003 --> 00:20:05,733
They had a feeling of
discomfort and tension, like

331
00:20:05,734 --> 00:20:07,424
they just wanted to pull away.

332
00:20:08,904 --> 00:20:11,853
Those were real, and they were accurate

333
00:20:14,468 --> 00:20:15,986
That's why I wanted to
come back to this- Oh my

334
00:20:15,986 --> 00:20:17,138
Sadaf: god … because it's so
important Yeah, that's so important.

335
00:20:17,138 --> 00:20:20,808
But, like, tell me, is it something
about trauma that makes you ignore that?

336
00:20:20,808 --> 00:20:24,028
And maybe the reason that empaths
get into these relationships with

337
00:20:24,028 --> 00:20:28,237
psychopaths is because everybody
else is like, "Whoa, that's a

338
00:20:28,248 --> 00:20:29,407
psychopath. I should stay away." Yeah.

339
00:20:29,408 --> 00:20:32,818
But the empath is like, "Oh, I'm
sure they're just nice people and-"

340
00:20:32,867 --> 00:20:34,887
Eilat Aviram: Or, "Ah,
they had a hard childhood.

341
00:20:35,137 --> 00:20:35,827
Aw."

342
00:20:36,478 --> 00:20:36,698
Sadaf: That

343
00:20:36,908 --> 00:20:38,307
Eilat Aviram: person… I'm that person.

344
00:20:38,307 --> 00:20:39,008
Yeah.

345
00:20:39,008 --> 00:20:40,418
Sadaf: I'm literally that person.

346
00:20:40,418 --> 00:20:40,438
Eilat Aviram: I'm

347
00:20:40,588 --> 00:20:42,847
Sadaf: like, "You know,
nobody's evil, and you should-"

348
00:20:43,097 --> 00:20:43,287
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

349
00:20:43,287 --> 00:20:46,828
"… yes, you should always give them a
chance." Really, really important.

350
00:20:47,137 --> 00:20:51,907
Also, in, in line with this, how do you
know if somebody is or is not toxic?

351
00:20:53,187 --> 00:20:57,537
Watch somebody's behavior;
don't listen to their words.

352
00:20:58,748 --> 00:21:01,637
Often, people's words will
conflict their behavior.

353
00:21:01,678 --> 00:21:05,188
They'll say something, and it sounds
so good, and you believe it because

354
00:21:05,188 --> 00:21:08,487
you're a words person, and you want
to believe the best in everybody.

355
00:21:09,207 --> 00:21:12,627
They speak about, uh, spiritual bypassing.

356
00:21:12,637 --> 00:21:13,847
Mm. Mm. Have you heard that term?

357
00:21:13,857 --> 00:21:14,217
Mm-hmm.

358
00:21:14,228 --> 00:21:19,708
So, spiritual bypassing is when you see
someone's bad behavior as a human and

359
00:21:19,708 --> 00:21:23,297
what they're doing, and then you say,
"Oh, but they have such potential."

360
00:21:23,498 --> 00:21:24,038
Sadaf: Yes.

361
00:21:24,047 --> 00:21:28,767
Eilat Aviram: And you create a bridge over
their bad behavior and their bad choices,

362
00:21:28,788 --> 00:21:30,857
and you, you make excuses for them.

363
00:21:32,318 --> 00:21:33,667
So, that's another way.

364
00:21:33,667 --> 00:21:37,827
But if people are saying nice
things but they're behaving badly…

365
00:21:38,227 --> 00:21:38,847
Sadaf: Mm.

366
00:21:40,367 --> 00:21:42,117
Eilat Aviram: I- which one
do you give more weight to?

367
00:21:42,117 --> 00:21:43,047
Mm. Their behavior.

368
00:21:43,337 --> 00:21:44,427
Someone will show you.

369
00:21:44,648 --> 00:21:48,168
Watch how someone treats
children, treats dogs- Yeah

370
00:21:48,207 --> 00:21:51,167
treats anyone that they
think is less than them.

371
00:21:51,167 --> 00:21:54,287
Watch how they talk to the
checkout person at a supermarket.

372
00:21:54,527 --> 00:21:57,117
Watch how they speak to
waiters and waitresses.

373
00:21:57,167 --> 00:21:59,248
Mm. That's a big cue.

374
00:21:59,267 --> 00:22:03,887
If somebody is rude to a waiter
or waitress, pay attention.

375
00:22:06,478 --> 00:22:12,108
Sadaf: Tangentially but related is
that what about trauma makes us that

376
00:22:12,138 --> 00:22:15,188
way, that we don't listen to ourselves?

377
00:22:15,268 --> 00:22:17,198
I guess this goes into the
self-love question, right?

378
00:22:17,208 --> 00:22:17,728
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

379
00:22:17,758 --> 00:22:18,228
Sadaf: Yeah.

380
00:22:19,208 --> 00:22:21,897
Do we stop loving ourselves
when we have trauma?

381
00:22:25,290 --> 00:22:27,980
Eilat Aviram: Uh, we have to go into
my definition of self-love for that.

382
00:22:28,030 --> 00:22:28,390
Sadaf: Okay.

383
00:22:28,450 --> 00:22:30,690
Eilat Aviram: Because I have
a slightly unusual maybe s-

384
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:30,920
Sadaf: Yeah

385
00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:34,179
…
Eilat Aviram: definition of self-love,
and I have a community, I run a

386
00:22:34,180 --> 00:22:38,270
community for people to learn to
love themselves more, as you know.

387
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,110
And it's

388
00:22:44,206 --> 00:22:48,216
The kind of people who are drawn to a
community like that are often people who

389
00:22:48,245 --> 00:22:53,696
have been taught in some way to not listen
to themselves, and usually it's because it

390
00:22:53,696 --> 00:22:57,545
can be severe trauma, but it can also just
be sort of a family who doesn't listen

391
00:22:57,545 --> 00:23:01,625
to you or who tells you you're talking
rubbish or who doesn't have capacity to

392
00:23:01,626 --> 00:23:04,405
hold you emotionally in the way you need.

393
00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:09,035
Doesn't mean your family's wrong and bad,
it just means that you didn't get what

394
00:23:09,035 --> 00:23:11,585
you needed to be able to trust yourself.

395
00:23:12,626 --> 00:23:17,015
So my definition of self-trust
is meeting your needs.

396
00:23:18,055 --> 00:23:18,665
That's it.

397
00:23:19,996 --> 00:23:23,726
It's so simple, and not
something we are taught.

398
00:23:25,125 --> 00:23:25,435
Sadaf: Okay.

399
00:23:25,595 --> 00:23:25,705
Yeah.

400
00:23:25,816 --> 00:23:25,876
Eilat Aviram: So

401
00:23:25,876 --> 00:23:26,055
Sadaf: many

402
00:23:26,055 --> 00:23:26,225
Eilat Aviram: questions here.

403
00:23:26,226 --> 00:23:26,555
You see?

404
00:23:26,775 --> 00:23:27,231
You see?

405
00:23:27,231 --> 00:23:27,996
So many questions.

406
00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:28,955
This is where we heat up.

407
00:23:29,025 --> 00:23:29,226
Go.

408
00:23:29,625 --> 00:23:33,716
Sadaf: So what if I
have conflicting needs?

409
00:23:33,945 --> 00:23:37,545
I need- I know … to be friends
with this person because we have this

410
00:23:37,545 --> 00:23:39,456
amazing history, and I know that-

411
00:23:39,805 --> 00:23:40,205
Eilat Aviram: Mm

412
00:23:40,215 --> 00:23:41,335
…
Sadaf: she can be different.

413
00:23:41,345 --> 00:23:44,885
She can be lovely, and I think
you'd also see that, too, in

414
00:23:44,886 --> 00:23:46,305
narcissistic relationships, right?

415
00:23:46,305 --> 00:23:48,515
Like, I know that this
person can be so amazing.

416
00:23:48,645 --> 00:23:49,095
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

417
00:23:49,136 --> 00:23:53,385
Sadaf: But at the same time, so I need
to have, I want, I need that person

418
00:23:53,456 --> 00:23:59,145
in my life, and at the same time, I
also need to not feel judged and like

419
00:23:59,145 --> 00:24:01,376
shit when I hang out with this person

420
00:24:03,854 --> 00:24:05,534
Eilat Aviram: So what
I'm hearing you say is-

421
00:24:05,604 --> 00:24:05,854
Sadaf: Mm

422
00:24:06,024 --> 00:24:08,344
…
Eilat Aviram: you have a need
for connection and friendship.

423
00:24:08,674 --> 00:24:09,244
Sadaf: Yes.

424
00:24:09,284 --> 00:24:12,844
Eilat Aviram: It's not necessarily with
this person who makes you feel bad.

425
00:24:13,054 --> 00:24:13,474
Sadaf: Mm.

426
00:24:14,624 --> 00:24:16,474
Eilat Aviram: Y- you do
have conflicting needs.

427
00:24:16,474 --> 00:24:20,374
You have a need to… You
have a need for harmony.

428
00:24:20,534 --> 00:24:20,834
Sadaf: Mm.

429
00:24:20,844 --> 00:24:22,474
Eilat Aviram: You have a need for respect.

430
00:24:22,474 --> 00:24:26,573
You have a need for mutual
liking and mutual consideration.

431
00:24:27,014 --> 00:24:28,593
Those needs are not being met.

432
00:24:29,393 --> 00:24:31,534
You also have a need for companionship.

433
00:24:31,534 --> 00:24:35,264
You have a need for maybe their
humor, their bubbliness, or

434
00:24:35,264 --> 00:24:36,803
all the good things about them.

435
00:24:37,284 --> 00:24:40,474
Those needs are being met,
but at the end of the day, we

436
00:24:40,474 --> 00:24:42,403
do have a hierarchy of needs.

437
00:24:42,424 --> 00:24:46,403
If you're, if you spend time with
this lively, bubbly person who

438
00:24:46,403 --> 00:24:49,953
also puts you down, drains your
energy, and makes you feel insecure-

439
00:24:52,078 --> 00:24:55,968
You know, are you coming out of your
engagements with this person in,

440
00:24:55,998 --> 00:25:00,098
in, um, in the green or in the red?

441
00:25:00,108 --> 00:25:01,187
In the black or in the red?

442
00:25:01,328 --> 00:25:04,628
Are you, are you… Is it sucking you dry?

443
00:25:04,967 --> 00:25:07,408
Sadaf: What is the
self-loving answer to that?

444
00:25:08,297 --> 00:25:12,337
Eilat Aviram: So if self-love is
meeting your needs, then the first

445
00:25:12,338 --> 00:25:16,017
thing is to be aware that you have
needs and to make them legitimate.

446
00:25:16,537 --> 00:25:21,138
You are allowed to actually consider
your needs and meet them, which is

447
00:25:21,148 --> 00:25:22,877
something many of us were not taught.

448
00:25:22,937 --> 00:25:24,017
We were taught the opposite.

449
00:25:24,068 --> 00:25:26,387
We were taught, "Put
everybody else ahead of you.

450
00:25:26,688 --> 00:25:28,088
Make sure everybody's fine.

451
00:25:28,098 --> 00:25:29,138
You come last.

452
00:25:29,297 --> 00:25:33,357
Put your needs last." We're
taught that in our families.

453
00:25:33,357 --> 00:25:34,648
We're taught that in our cultures.

454
00:25:34,648 --> 00:25:36,148
We're taught that in our religions.

455
00:25:36,517 --> 00:25:37,667
Mm. It's, it's how it is.

456
00:25:37,668 --> 00:25:44,520
It's actually seen as something
very, um l- esteemed and laudable

457
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,370
if you are someone who puts
everybody else ahead of yourself.

458
00:25:48,410 --> 00:25:52,530
And there can be amazing things
about that if putting other

459
00:25:52,530 --> 00:25:55,280
people first is nourishing to you

460
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:55,820
Sadaf: Hmm

461
00:25:56,250 --> 00:25:59,519
Eilat Aviram: But if it's coming at
your cost and you feel angry, you

462
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,270
feel depleted, you feel resentful,
then after a while, that's actually

463
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,259
going to become toxic for the
relationships- Right … you're in.

464
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:07,780
Sadaf: Okay.

465
00:26:07,899 --> 00:26:12,250
Eilat Aviram: You can make good
relationships toxic if you keep giving.

466
00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:17,930
If you keep ignoring your own
needs in a relationship, you're

467
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,650
going to become resentful.

468
00:26:20,139 --> 00:26:23,989
Sadaf: Wow, I love what you're saying,
because you're saying that if I am

469
00:26:23,999 --> 00:26:30,149
not loving to myself in the way that I
relate to others, then I can, just by

470
00:26:30,159 --> 00:26:35,160
doing that, I can turn this perfectly
fine relationship, I can turn it toxic.

471
00:26:35,209 --> 00:26:35,309
Yes.

472
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:37,580
I can make it something
that's toxic to me.

473
00:26:37,589 --> 00:26:37,609
Yeah.

474
00:26:37,620 --> 00:26:38,339
It's poisonous to me.

475
00:26:38,339 --> 00:26:42,419
But actually, it's not the other
person who did that, it's I did that.

476
00:26:43,059 --> 00:26:43,589
I did it.

477
00:26:43,929 --> 00:26:47,059
Eilat Aviram: I, I often say that loving
yourself and listening to your needs

478
00:26:47,059 --> 00:26:49,080
is the least selfish thing you can do.

479
00:26:49,099 --> 00:26:49,539
Sadaf: Yeah.

480
00:26:49,550 --> 00:26:52,239
Eilat Aviram: We're taught it's
selfish, but actually it's not.

481
00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:57,309
Because also, if I'm not meeting my needs,
then I'm coming to you in our relationship

482
00:26:57,309 --> 00:26:59,719
and expecting you to meet my needs for me.

483
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,749
Sadaf: I think it's also s- inauthentic.

484
00:27:01,769 --> 00:27:02,039
You know?

485
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:06,019
It's like pretending to be okay with
something that you're not okay with.

486
00:27:07,209 --> 00:27:09,659
Eilat Aviram: That's true, but
most of us are not aware of that-

487
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:12,530
Mm … 'cause that makes it sound,
like, pre, um, what do you call it?

488
00:27:12,530 --> 00:27:13,090
Meditated.

489
00:27:13,090 --> 00:27:13,659
Yeah.

490
00:27:13,719 --> 00:27:14,879
And it's, and it's not.

491
00:27:14,919 --> 00:27:17,659
Most of us are so used to
pushing ourselves aside.

492
00:27:17,699 --> 00:27:19,029
We're like, "Oh, I feel uncomfortable.

493
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:19,909
Oh, never, never mind.

494
00:27:19,919 --> 00:27:20,879
She's very nice.

495
00:27:21,550 --> 00:27:25,259
I'm just gonna…" You
know? Uh, "He never pays.

496
00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:26,169
I always pay.

497
00:27:26,239 --> 00:27:27,129
Ugh, you know what?

498
00:27:27,139 --> 00:27:27,709
It's fine.

499
00:27:27,709 --> 00:27:28,499
I have money.

500
00:27:28,499 --> 00:27:31,199
I like being generous."
Mm. But that happens…

501
00:27:31,399 --> 00:27:32,749
Remember I said it's a pattern.

502
00:27:32,749 --> 00:27:34,490
You've gotta watch for the patterns.

503
00:27:34,830 --> 00:27:38,159
That happens again, and it happens
again, and it happens again, and there

504
00:27:38,159 --> 00:27:40,029
is resentment building up in you.

505
00:27:40,749 --> 00:27:45,359
When you feel reluctance or
resentment, pay attention.

506
00:27:45,989 --> 00:27:47,849
That's not something to override.

507
00:27:49,330 --> 00:27:52,789
It's, it's telling you that the
give/take is out of balance.

508
00:27:53,159 --> 00:27:55,469
But that's not their fault.

509
00:27:56,099 --> 00:27:56,649
Sadaf: Hmm.

510
00:27:57,179 --> 00:28:01,279
Eilat Aviram: Your job is to
look after you, and if you're not

511
00:28:01,329 --> 00:28:04,089
doing that by setting the boundary
and saying, "You know what?

512
00:28:04,090 --> 00:28:05,149
This time… I always pay.

513
00:28:05,149 --> 00:28:08,119
You pay this time," or, "How
about we split the bill?

514
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:12,709
I don't, I'm not happy always
having to pay," that's on you

515
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,629
Sadaf: Let's say something like this
has happened, because I'm sure many of

516
00:28:17,629 --> 00:28:23,670
us have been in this situation where
we've been overly self-sacrificial and,

517
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:26,460
um, we've turned a relationship toxic.

518
00:28:27,010 --> 00:28:32,820
Now, I've… I see this, but I wanna
fix it because I still like this person,

519
00:28:32,820 --> 00:28:34,769
and I wanna reverse this dynamic.

520
00:28:34,770 --> 00:28:36,979
I wanna, I wanna start from scratch.

521
00:28:37,249 --> 00:28:40,389
But, you know, I don't wanna just leave
this relationship and go somewhere else

522
00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:42,170
because friends are difficult to find.

523
00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:46,589
I know as someone who's moved
countries and moved cities, and it's

524
00:28:46,589 --> 00:28:48,909
really hard to find good friends.

525
00:28:48,949 --> 00:28:52,049
And maybe I realize that, you
know, it's my fault that this

526
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:54,489
relationship is this way, and I wanna

527
00:28:54,489 --> 00:28:54,509
Eilat Aviram: fix it.

528
00:28:54,509 --> 00:28:55,379
Well, it's never one person.

529
00:28:55,379 --> 00:28:55,760
Sadaf: Okay.

530
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,139
Okay.

531
00:28:56,269 --> 00:28:58,159
Eilat Aviram: Like, it always
takes two to do a dance.

532
00:28:58,199 --> 00:28:58,679
Sadaf: Okay.

533
00:28:58,699 --> 00:29:00,399
So how… Okay, so fine.

534
00:29:00,739 --> 00:29:04,089
Then how, how would, how
would I approach this?

535
00:29:06,894 --> 00:29:11,414
Eilat Aviram: If you and I are dancing
a tango and I stop dancing the tango and

536
00:29:11,414 --> 00:29:15,423
I start dancing a waltz, are you gonna
be able to continue dancing a tango?

537
00:29:16,493 --> 00:29:16,753
No.

538
00:29:18,344 --> 00:29:22,224
Your option is either to stop,
to get off the dance floor, or

539
00:29:22,243 --> 00:29:23,884
to start dancing a waltz with me.

540
00:29:24,724 --> 00:29:26,493
Then you'll see if you
like it or you don't.

541
00:29:26,554 --> 00:29:31,504
Sadaf: But if we're doing the tango and
now suddenly I decide to do the waltz,

542
00:29:31,504 --> 00:29:34,453
like, that's so jarring for you 'cause
you were like, "We're doing the tango."

543
00:29:35,324 --> 00:29:37,624
Eilat Aviram: But if you're not
enjoying the tango, I'm liking this.

544
00:29:39,033 --> 00:29:41,644
But if you're not enjoying the
tango and you tell me, "I don't

545
00:29:41,653 --> 00:29:45,603
really like the tango," or I can
see that you're out of breath, I

546
00:29:45,603 --> 00:29:47,553
can see that your ankle is hurting-

547
00:29:50,272 --> 00:29:52,732
Why should you have to
continue dancing the tango?

548
00:29:52,982 --> 00:29:54,312
Sadaf: I struggle with being tactful.

549
00:29:54,482 --> 00:29:59,652
I, s- so if you can just tell me a
very practical way that someone would

550
00:29:59,652 --> 00:30:06,676
approach this, um How would I approach
my friend to start doing the waltz now?

551
00:30:07,566 --> 00:30:10,436
Eilat Aviram: Okay, so just on a very
kind of let's stay with the tango on

552
00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:13,906
a really practical level- Yeah … if
you're dancing a tango and you suddenly

553
00:30:13,906 --> 00:30:18,035
stop, that would be weird and rude and-
Yes … potentially trip the other person.

554
00:30:18,035 --> 00:30:18,515
Yes, yes, yes.

555
00:30:18,515 --> 00:30:21,935
And make them feel like an idiot,
'cause they'll still be dancing the

556
00:30:24,155 --> 00:30:24,295
tango.

557
00:30:24,305 --> 00:30:24,397
And then the pressure…

558
00:30:24,397 --> 00:30:24,409
Yeah.

559
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:25,366
And you're like just looking at them.

560
00:30:26,025 --> 00:30:31,806
Um, ideally you would say to them, "At the
end of this number, I- I've had enough.

561
00:30:31,895 --> 00:30:33,245
I need, I need a break.

562
00:30:33,245 --> 00:30:36,836
I'm happy to continue dancing a
waltz if you want to, but otherwise I

563
00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:39,115
need to take a break from the tango.

564
00:30:40,485 --> 00:30:42,565
I've realized I don't enjoy a tango.

565
00:30:42,606 --> 00:30:45,325
I prefer less dramatic dancing."

566
00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:45,696
Sadaf: Mm.

567
00:30:46,536 --> 00:30:49,985
Eilat Aviram: Um, that person has
a choice of how they want to react.

568
00:30:50,055 --> 00:30:50,455
Sadaf: Mm.

569
00:30:50,465 --> 00:30:51,626
Eilat Aviram: They can shame you.

570
00:30:51,635 --> 00:30:55,745
You see, that's, that's where you'll see a
narcissist or an, or toxicity coming out.

571
00:30:55,755 --> 00:30:59,945
Mm. Because if you set a boundary, this is
a very, very important point by the way.

572
00:30:59,946 --> 00:31:01,755
You were asking me how do you recognize.

573
00:31:02,095 --> 00:31:05,545
W- a way to test, if you
need to test a friend- Mm

574
00:31:05,875 --> 00:31:09,325
if you're wondering, listening to
this and you're thinking, "I wonder

575
00:31:09,375 --> 00:31:15,425
if that relationship is toxic?" Mm.
The way to test it neatly is to set

576
00:31:15,426 --> 00:31:17,556
a boundary and see how they respond.

577
00:31:17,945 --> 00:31:20,625
So when they ask you for
something, not something silly.

578
00:31:20,625 --> 00:31:21,495
Do it properly.

579
00:31:21,555 --> 00:31:21,695
Yeah.

580
00:31:21,695 --> 00:31:24,815
If it's really, you say, "No, I, I
don't want to," or, "I don't want to

581
00:31:24,815 --> 00:31:28,445
pay," or, "I want to stop doing bowling.

582
00:31:28,445 --> 00:31:32,206
I'd rather go to a movie."
And watch how they respond.

583
00:31:32,275 --> 00:31:35,665
Mm. If they are able to work
with you and accommodate you-

584
00:31:35,945 --> 00:31:38,406
Mm … m- that's not toxic.

585
00:31:38,775 --> 00:31:42,785
But when we're leaning towards clinical-

586
00:31:42,795 --> 00:31:43,045
Sadaf: Mm

587
00:31:43,055 --> 00:31:46,095
…
Eilat Aviram: narcissism-
Mm … and clinical psychopathology-

588
00:31:46,115 --> 00:31:46,575
Sadaf: Mm

589
00:31:46,646 --> 00:31:51,445
…
Eilat Aviram: um, th- that's not s- that
person's gonna say, they'll shame you.

590
00:31:52,205 --> 00:31:53,635
"Why would you do that?

591
00:31:53,685 --> 00:31:57,815
You're always letting me down." Mm.
Uh, "You just want it to be your way.

592
00:31:57,835 --> 00:31:59,685
No, I don't, I don't wanna do that.

593
00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:02,805
I, no, I'm not gonna do
it." It's very interesting.

594
00:32:02,805 --> 00:32:07,245
So it's a sneaky test for a relationship,
is to actually set a boundary

595
00:32:07,245 --> 00:32:11,406
that's an honest boundary for you,
and see if they can flow with it.

596
00:32:11,646 --> 00:32:14,285
If they can flow with
it, it's probably safe.

597
00:32:14,295 --> 00:32:14,625
Sadaf: Yeah.

598
00:32:14,646 --> 00:32:17,515
Eilat Aviram: If they can't flow
with it, that's a big red flag.

599
00:32:17,586 --> 00:32:22,305
Sadaf: Like, I think, like, let's say
we always meet close to my house and,

600
00:32:23,146 --> 00:32:24,606
I mean, it's a silly example but- It's

601
00:32:24,606 --> 00:32:24,885
Eilat Aviram: not.

602
00:32:24,896 --> 00:32:25,855
It's a very real example

603
00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:30,085
Sadaf: We always meet close to
my house, but then, um, if my

604
00:32:30,086 --> 00:32:33,145
friend says to me, "Hey, can we
meet close to my house this time?"

605
00:32:33,565 --> 00:32:36,905
And then suddenly I realize, like,
oh my God, we have always met

606
00:32:36,976 --> 00:32:40,665
close to… Like, I was genuinely
un- I didn't think about it much.

607
00:32:41,055 --> 00:32:42,555
Um, and yeah, sure.

608
00:32:42,565 --> 00:32:43,365
Like, yeah, yeah.

609
00:32:43,366 --> 00:32:43,646
Sorry.

610
00:32:43,655 --> 00:32:44,005
Exactly.

611
00:32:44,036 --> 00:32:44,865
Yeah, like, let's meet-

612
00:32:44,875 --> 00:32:47,666
Eilat Aviram: That's then- Yeah … you're
not, you're not the toxic one there, okay?

613
00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:47,966
Sadaf: Yes.

614
00:32:48,025 --> 00:32:48,365
Breathe.

615
00:32:48,565 --> 00:32:48,705
Yeah.

616
00:32:49,896 --> 00:32:50,686
Eilat Aviram: You're okay there.

617
00:32:50,695 --> 00:32:50,715
Yeah.

618
00:32:50,976 --> 00:32:52,355
You were just not aware.

619
00:32:52,366 --> 00:32:52,386
Yeah.

620
00:32:52,396 --> 00:32:54,025
You were not aware of the give/take.

621
00:32:54,025 --> 00:32:54,475
Sadaf: Yes.

622
00:32:54,515 --> 00:32:57,285
Eilat Aviram: You weren't kind
of actively considerate of-

623
00:32:57,345 --> 00:32:57,665
Sadaf: Yeah

624
00:32:57,676 --> 00:33:01,775
…
Eilat Aviram: making sure it's
equal and, and fairly shared.

625
00:33:02,062 --> 00:33:02,621
Sadaf: Yeah

626
00:33:02,802 --> 00:33:06,371
Eilat Aviram: But if you were to say, "Oh
no, that's really inconvenient for me"

627
00:33:06,851 --> 00:33:07,381
Sadaf: Yeah

628
00:33:07,492 --> 00:33:14,410
…
Eilat Aviram: that would be a red flag
So you asked if somebody has trauma,

629
00:33:14,410 --> 00:33:16,260
do they then override themselves?

630
00:33:16,260 --> 00:33:17,640
Do they not listen to themselves?

631
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:18,930
Do they not love themselves?

632
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:19,630
Sadaf: Yeah.

633
00:33:19,850 --> 00:33:24,320
Eilat Aviram: Trauma does predispose
people to checking out of their body.

634
00:33:24,390 --> 00:33:24,990
Sadaf: Yeah.

635
00:33:25,210 --> 00:33:28,050
Eilat Aviram: And when we're saying
that the signs and the alertness

636
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,329
comes in the body, then it would make
sense- Yes … that if your body's

637
00:33:32,330 --> 00:33:35,860
telling you something but you're
sort of floating somewhere about it.

638
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:41,999
In the American South, the Southern
women, there's a classic insult.

639
00:33:42,379 --> 00:33:47,920
They say, "God bless," and it
sounds so nice and so sweet.

640
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:48,559
Yeah.

641
00:33:48,610 --> 00:33:50,829
It's a, it's a nasty comment.

642
00:33:50,910 --> 00:33:53,569
It's kind of like, "Oh,
shame. Look at you."

643
00:33:53,689 --> 00:33:55,909
Sadaf: Oh, yeah, and that would be
the South African equivalent, right?

644
00:33:55,909 --> 00:33:56,009
Exactly.

645
00:33:56,009 --> 00:33:56,409
Shame.

646
00:33:56,430 --> 00:33:56,889
Oh, shame.

647
00:33:56,899 --> 00:33:57,619
Eilat Aviram: Like, oh.

648
00:33:57,630 --> 00:33:58,090
Sadaf: Shame.

649
00:33:58,849 --> 00:33:59,249
Eilat Aviram: Look at her.

650
00:34:00,340 --> 00:34:00,860
So-

651
00:34:00,860 --> 00:34:01,390
Sadaf: Yeah

652
00:34:01,930 --> 00:34:06,189
…
Eilat Aviram: you will know it because
of how your body responds to it, so don't

653
00:34:06,189 --> 00:34:08,240
ignore what your body is telling you.

654
00:34:08,270 --> 00:34:10,330
Sadaf: And, and why are they
doing that in that moment?

655
00:34:10,340 --> 00:34:13,290
Are they doing it because it makes
them feel better about themselves?

656
00:34:14,549 --> 00:34:16,860
Eilat Aviram: Well, they are
disconnected from themselves.

657
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:17,450
Sadaf: Mm.

658
00:34:17,459 --> 00:34:18,409
Eilat Aviram: You have to be.

659
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:19,970
They're disconnected from their heart.

660
00:34:20,369 --> 00:34:20,849
Sadaf: Mm.

661
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:23,639
Eilat Aviram: They're disconnected
from their own humanness.

662
00:34:23,650 --> 00:34:29,559
Mm. And usually, I mean, one of the
core dynamics in narcissism, in clinical

663
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:34,209
narcissism, is that somebody's unable
to tolerate their internal flaws.

664
00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:41,249
So if they believe some deep, deep, deep,
deep hidden part of them has a belief that

665
00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:46,709
they're broken or flawed in some way, and,
uh, and they feel like if anybody was to

666
00:34:46,729 --> 00:34:49,450
see that or find that out, they would die.

667
00:34:50,419 --> 00:34:51,809
Not just dramatically.

668
00:34:51,809 --> 00:34:55,080
It's a psychic thing that you feel
like that would be the end of you.

669
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:55,690
Sadaf: Wow.

670
00:34:56,019 --> 00:34:58,889
Eilat Aviram: And so you have
to defend that at all costs.

671
00:34:58,900 --> 00:34:59,300
Sadaf: Yeah.

672
00:34:59,379 --> 00:35:05,739
Eilat Aviram: And so there's, there's a
certain… We, we speak about, um, two…

673
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:07,559
there's different kinds of narcissists.

674
00:35:07,569 --> 00:35:09,809
You have the bear and you have the snake.

675
00:35:09,819 --> 00:35:14,970
Mm. And there are other kinds, but the
bear is, you know, for the want of a

676
00:35:14,970 --> 00:35:16,739
better example, someone like Trump.

677
00:35:17,099 --> 00:35:17,499
Right.

678
00:35:17,509 --> 00:35:17,999
All right?

679
00:35:18,009 --> 00:35:20,539
You see them coming a mile away.

680
00:35:21,230 --> 00:35:23,520
Or it's a bull, I think,
actually, a bull or a bear.

681
00:35:23,819 --> 00:35:27,859
Both that energy of like, "Here I am.
Pay attention to me. No one else exists

682
00:35:27,859 --> 00:35:33,039
but me." But then you have the snake,
who seems all right and quiet until you

683
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,950
step too near and then they jab you.

684
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:35,520
Sadaf: Mm.

685
00:35:35,799 --> 00:35:42,749
Eilat Aviram: But in both instances, if
you come too close to revealing their

686
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:48,419
flaw, they have to kill the intruder,
which means they'll take you down.

687
00:35:48,889 --> 00:35:49,599
They'll blame you.

688
00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:50,499
They'll shame you.

689
00:35:50,499 --> 00:35:51,789
They'll dismiss you.

690
00:35:51,999 --> 00:35:53,309
They'll walk away from you.

691
00:35:53,319 --> 00:35:54,459
They'll cancel you.

692
00:35:54,459 --> 00:35:54,469
Oh.

693
00:35:54,469 --> 00:35:55,560
They'll ghost you.

694
00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:56,679
That makes so much sense.

695
00:35:57,659 --> 00:36:01,490
So they're unable to tolerate that,
but they're not doing it consciously.

696
00:36:01,739 --> 00:36:02,559
Sadaf: Mm.

697
00:36:02,889 --> 00:36:04,389
Eilat Aviram: They…
But they are doing it.

698
00:36:04,990 --> 00:36:08,540
So we need to be careful of just
because you understand why someone

699
00:36:08,540 --> 00:36:13,700
is being a toxic person or hurtful
or harmful, there's understanding,

700
00:36:13,770 --> 00:36:15,109
and then there's excusing.

701
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:15,529
Right.

702
00:36:15,589 --> 00:36:16,919
They're not the same thing.

703
00:36:16,930 --> 00:36:21,700
Mm. And if you understand why someone is
the way they are, you can compassionately

704
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:26,609
care about the fact that they are hurting,
whether or not they're aware they're

705
00:36:26,609 --> 00:36:31,560
hurting, and you can still call them out.

706
00:36:32,049 --> 00:36:34,339
You can still make them accountable.

707
00:36:34,449 --> 00:36:36,200
You can still put them to task.

708
00:36:36,819 --> 00:36:40,230
Sadaf: I think that the understanding
helps a lot because in the past when I've

709
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:45,069
been in unhealthy friendships that are
hurtful to me, I've often blamed myself.

710
00:36:45,569 --> 00:36:45,910
Like-

711
00:36:45,939 --> 00:36:47,339
Eilat Aviram: And they would
have helped you do that.

712
00:36:47,369 --> 00:36:47,859
Sadaf: Yes.

713
00:36:47,950 --> 00:36:51,179
And I've, and I've felt like,
what is it about me that allows

714
00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:53,390
someone to behave this way with me?

715
00:36:53,390 --> 00:36:56,240
So I'd make it very personal,
that is something wrong with me

716
00:36:56,250 --> 00:37:00,420
that allows you to feel like it's
okay to say this to me, or it's…

717
00:37:01,250 --> 00:37:02,449
Maybe I did something.

718
00:37:02,689 --> 00:37:05,179
Eilat Aviram: W- well, you didn't
do something to deserve it.

719
00:37:05,250 --> 00:37:05,359
Sadaf: Yes.

720
00:37:05,369 --> 00:37:05,739
Never.

721
00:37:05,799 --> 00:37:06,079
Yes.

722
00:37:06,089 --> 00:37:07,459
Eilat Aviram: Never, never, never, never.

723
00:37:07,539 --> 00:37:07,969
Sadaf: Yeah.

724
00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:13,199
Eilat Aviram: But it's possible that
you either missed the social cues where

725
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,810
you saw that, where you didn't see
that this person was behaving badly

726
00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:21,680
or this person had a tendency to be
mean and nasty, so maybe you missed-

727
00:37:21,859 --> 00:37:22,139
Sadaf: Mm

728
00:37:22,149 --> 00:37:27,659
Eilat Aviram: that, or when they did
it, you somehow rationalized it inside

729
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:29,559
of yourself and made excuses for them.

730
00:37:29,649 --> 00:37:30,089
Sadaf: Mm.

731
00:37:30,429 --> 00:37:33,509
Eilat Aviram: So you didn't do anything
wrong to make it happen, but if it

732
00:37:33,509 --> 00:37:37,980
happens and it happens consistently
in a relationship, you are danced.

733
00:37:37,989 --> 00:37:38,779
That's the tango.

734
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:39,589
Sadaf: Mm.

735
00:37:39,609 --> 00:37:41,879
Eilat Aviram: So that's… We're
coming… Yay, we're closing another loop.

736
00:37:42,179 --> 00:37:42,389
Sadaf: Okay.

737
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:43,089
Yeah.

738
00:37:43,450 --> 00:37:48,050
Eilat Aviram: If you participate in
the dynamic of them being mean to you

739
00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:49,629
and you keep coming back for more-

740
00:37:49,669 --> 00:37:50,179
Sadaf: Yes

741
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,590
…
Eilat Aviram: you, that is,
you are 100% responsible for

742
00:37:54,590 --> 00:37:56,430
your 50% of the relationship.

743
00:37:56,430 --> 00:37:57,219
Sadaf: Okay, got it.

744
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:58,400
Yeah, makes sense.

745
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,649
Do you have any thoughts on what's
happening from a metaphysical

746
00:38:02,879 --> 00:38:05,899
perspective in this, uh, toxic dynamic?

747
00:38:06,759 --> 00:38:09,759
Eilat Aviram: When somebody needs
to shame someone else or put someone

748
00:38:09,759 --> 00:38:16,099
else down, they are usually trying
to make themselves feel better.

749
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:20,369
Everything we do, we do because
we're trying to feel better.

750
00:38:20,949 --> 00:38:25,009
We think that we will feel better
in the doing or the having of it.

751
00:38:25,029 --> 00:38:29,219
Mm. So they are putting you down or
judging you or shaming you 'cause

752
00:38:29,229 --> 00:38:32,149
they think that doing that is
gonna make them feel maybe better

753
00:38:32,149 --> 00:38:34,209
about themselves, less insecure- Mm

754
00:38:34,219 --> 00:38:35,410
whatever the case may be.

755
00:38:36,609 --> 00:38:41,479
But if we bring it into energy and
metaphysical terms, each one of us is

756
00:38:41,479 --> 00:38:43,759
connected to our own source of energy.

757
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:49,389
We are, um, I suppose if you're a
light bulb, you are connected to the

758
00:38:49,389 --> 00:38:54,130
main source of electricity, and we're
all connected through our own sources.

759
00:38:54,139 --> 00:38:58,359
Mm. I'm not connected as a bulb to
you as a bulb and then to the source.

760
00:38:58,359 --> 00:39:05,142
I have to have my own direct connection,
and that would be- life energy.

761
00:39:05,151 --> 00:39:08,452
In, um, Ayurvedic, they call it prana.

762
00:39:08,462 --> 00:39:10,591
In Chinese medicine, they call it chi.

763
00:39:10,651 --> 00:39:14,702
In, uh, Japanese, uh,
healing, they call it ki.

764
00:39:14,712 --> 00:39:15,111
Sadaf: Mm-hmm.

765
00:39:15,131 --> 00:39:19,511
Eilat Aviram: So there is an actual
life energy that is measurable,

766
00:39:19,522 --> 00:39:25,551
scientifically measurable, around
us- Hmm … i- in every living thing.

767
00:39:25,571 --> 00:39:29,502
They have Kirlian photography, where
you can actually take a photograph of

768
00:39:29,511 --> 00:39:35,061
something's energy, of a human's energetic
electro-biomagnetic field around us.

769
00:39:35,561 --> 00:39:35,721
Yes.

770
00:39:36,221 --> 00:39:38,341
So we live in an energetic universe.

771
00:39:38,401 --> 00:39:40,241
Einstein told us that years ago.

772
00:39:40,252 --> 00:39:40,281
Yes.

773
00:39:40,471 --> 00:39:41,751
So it's established.

774
00:39:43,331 --> 00:39:49,942
So ideally, each one of us is plugged
into this never-ending source of energy.

775
00:39:49,951 --> 00:39:49,971
Yeah.

776
00:39:50,142 --> 00:39:54,601
And we do that by meditation,
by prayer, by exercising, by

777
00:39:54,601 --> 00:40:00,832
laughing, by opening our hearts-
Yeah … by healing things, traumas.

778
00:40:01,211 --> 00:40:04,872
When we do all those things, you go
for a walk in nature, you swim in

779
00:40:04,872 --> 00:40:10,491
some natural ocean or lake, you are
reconnecting to that source of energy.

780
00:40:10,522 --> 00:40:11,751
It's why it feels so good.

781
00:40:11,751 --> 00:40:13,401
Mm. We feel good.

782
00:40:13,401 --> 00:40:14,312
We feel alive.

783
00:40:14,312 --> 00:40:15,021
We feel vibrant.

784
00:40:15,062 --> 00:40:16,101
We feel balanced.

785
00:40:16,111 --> 00:40:22,291
Mm. If we don't do that stuff- Mm … or
we feel unable to for some reason,

786
00:40:22,301 --> 00:40:24,621
we are disconnect from ourselves.

787
00:40:24,971 --> 00:40:27,551
Mm. We also disconnect from our supply.

788
00:40:27,702 --> 00:40:28,342
Sadaf: Mm.

789
00:40:28,971 --> 00:40:31,401
Eilat Aviram: So there is something
called a narcissistic supply.

790
00:40:31,412 --> 00:40:32,852
Mm. Have you ever heard of that term?

791
00:40:33,581 --> 00:40:37,931
Sadaf: Is that when the, a narcissist
is using the victim for energy

792
00:40:37,931 --> 00:40:39,431
to, like, suck their energy?

793
00:40:39,491 --> 00:40:39,871
Eilat Aviram: Yes.

794
00:40:39,871 --> 00:40:40,412
Sadaf: Yeah, okay.

795
00:40:40,471 --> 00:40:42,792
Eilat Aviram: And it's one of the
reasons people call them energy vampires.

796
00:40:42,801 --> 00:40:43,381
Sadaf: Yes.

797
00:40:43,751 --> 00:40:48,071
Eilat Aviram: So if I'm unable, if
I'm a light bulb and I need to shine

798
00:40:48,071 --> 00:40:52,971
and I need electricity, but I can't
access the source- Mm … but you can,

799
00:40:54,081 --> 00:41:00,371
I can hook onto you to get my energy
so that I can shine, but you dim

800
00:41:01,111 --> 00:41:03,821
and wobble, because I need to shine.

801
00:41:04,711 --> 00:41:07,511
Sadaf: And so I make you feel bad
about yourself, because as you

802
00:41:07,511 --> 00:41:10,172
feel bad about yourself, somehow
I feel better about myself.

803
00:41:10,172 --> 00:41:15,061
But in energetic terms, I'm literally
sucking the energy from you to me,

804
00:41:15,662 --> 00:41:19,781
because in a sense, I'm only…
Because we are only ever anything in

805
00:41:19,781 --> 00:41:21,371
relation to something else, right?

806
00:41:23,574 --> 00:41:23,814
No?

807
00:41:24,054 --> 00:41:24,504
Eilat Aviram: Maybe.

808
00:41:24,534 --> 00:41:25,104
I don't know Maybe.

809
00:41:25,104 --> 00:41:26,084
Okay I'd have to think about that.

810
00:41:26,134 --> 00:41:26,464
Okay.

811
00:41:26,514 --> 00:41:28,994
Sadaf: Well, but, but let's,
let's say, I mean, I could be-

812
00:41:29,044 --> 00:41:30,654
Eilat Aviram: Well, and s- I-
Let's say it's all relative,

813
00:41:30,654 --> 00:41:31,673
so let's go with that Yes.

814
00:41:31,673 --> 00:41:35,733
Sadaf: So, so, like, I'm only c- like, I'm
cool, but I'm cool relative to you, right?

815
00:41:35,734 --> 00:41:37,414
So I have to be-
True … relative to something.

816
00:41:37,704 --> 00:41:41,843
So in order to m- for me to feel
like I am something, I'm smart, I

817
00:41:41,843 --> 00:41:44,484
have to feel smarter than something,
and I feel smarter than you.

818
00:41:44,993 --> 00:41:45,453
If.

819
00:41:45,464 --> 00:41:45,884
It's- Yeah

820
00:41:45,973 --> 00:41:48,043
…
Eilat Aviram: the reason I was
hesitating- Yeah … is, is that

821
00:41:48,053 --> 00:41:51,954
ideally, if you are tapped into your
own source, there is no relativity.

822
00:41:52,133 --> 00:41:53,413
Sadaf: You're so right.

823
00:41:53,454 --> 00:41:55,234
Eilat Aviram: That's why when you
said it, I was like, "Oh, kind

824
00:41:55,234 --> 00:41:56,513
of-" Yeah … "yes, but also no.

825
00:41:56,514 --> 00:41:56,784
Uh."

826
00:41:56,843 --> 00:41:57,393
Sadaf: Yes, yes.

827
00:41:57,423 --> 00:41:57,693
Okay.

828
00:41:57,694 --> 00:41:57,904
Yeah.

829
00:41:57,904 --> 00:42:01,993
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because
we are connected to divine energy,

830
00:42:01,993 --> 00:42:04,004
and so then we are everything.

831
00:42:04,063 --> 00:42:04,253
Eilat Aviram: Yes.

832
00:42:04,284 --> 00:42:05,733
Sadaf: We are actually everything.

833
00:42:05,764 --> 00:42:07,763
Eilat Aviram: If you are
smart, you're just smart.

834
00:42:07,913 --> 00:42:08,323
Sadaf: Yes.

835
00:42:08,323 --> 00:42:09,874
Eilat Aviram: I mean, there's
a- Unrelated to whether somebody

836
00:42:09,874 --> 00:42:11,703
else is less or more smart.

837
00:42:12,984 --> 00:42:13,104
Sadaf: Yeah.

838
00:42:13,104 --> 00:42:14,143
You're so right.

839
00:42:14,173 --> 00:42:15,743
I think, yeah, you're right about that.

840
00:42:16,003 --> 00:42:18,363
Eilat Aviram: Um- So energetically,
what's happening when someone is

841
00:42:18,383 --> 00:42:22,783
mean to you is that they're getting
something from you, and the interesting

842
00:42:22,793 --> 00:42:27,924
thing about toxic people in general
is that they'll take any energy.

843
00:42:28,214 --> 00:42:32,284
Like, you know when they say, "No
publicity is bad pub- is bad publicity?"

844
00:42:32,294 --> 00:42:34,513
Mm. No attention is bad attention.

845
00:42:34,813 --> 00:42:34,973
Sadaf: Mm.

846
00:42:35,854 --> 00:42:38,534
Eilat Aviram: If you think about,
I'm using Trump as an example-

847
00:42:38,544 --> 00:42:40,873
Mm … just because he's so
blatantly out there with all of this.

848
00:42:42,233 --> 00:42:44,404
Uh, he upsets people a lot.

849
00:42:44,803 --> 00:42:45,233
Sadaf: Mm.

850
00:42:45,303 --> 00:42:46,893
Eilat Aviram: And then
people talk about him.

851
00:42:46,893 --> 00:42:50,983
Mm. And people obsess about him,
and how crazy and how this and how

852
00:42:50,983 --> 00:42:54,543
could he and what e- all of that
energy that they are generating-

853
00:42:55,434 --> 00:42:55,684
Sadaf: Right

854
00:42:55,703 --> 00:42:56,354
Eilat Aviram: goes to him.

855
00:42:57,133 --> 00:43:01,603
Sadaf: And tell me, what about
more subtle forms of toxicity?

856
00:43:01,604 --> 00:43:05,883
So narcissists I feel like a
very obvious kind of example.

857
00:43:05,883 --> 00:43:06,013
Yes.

858
00:43:06,013 --> 00:43:09,883
But are there ways that somebody
may not be necessarily a narcissist,

859
00:43:09,894 --> 00:43:11,664
but they're just being mean to you?

860
00:43:11,673 --> 00:43:12,763
Is that possible?

861
00:43:13,903 --> 00:43:17,374
Eilat Aviram: Well, then, then you
are triggering something for them.

862
00:43:17,413 --> 00:43:17,843
Sadaf: Okay.

863
00:43:17,923 --> 00:43:20,083
Eilat Aviram: You're eliciting
some sort of response.

864
00:43:20,953 --> 00:43:23,523
Being mean to someone is
a form of attack, right?

865
00:43:23,723 --> 00:43:24,013
Sadaf: Mm.

866
00:43:24,023 --> 00:43:26,553
Eilat Aviram: Which means we
only attack when we feel…

867
00:43:26,653 --> 00:43:27,233
Sadaf: Threatened.

868
00:43:27,284 --> 00:43:27,974
Eilat Aviram: Exactly.

869
00:43:29,006 --> 00:43:29,266
Sadaf: Yeah.

870
00:43:29,455 --> 00:43:29,926
Okay

871
00:43:30,026 --> 00:43:33,046
Eilat Aviram: So then you need
to, like, ask what's happening.

872
00:43:33,276 --> 00:43:35,725
And obviously we can't
know truth for anyone else.

873
00:43:35,736 --> 00:43:39,375
That's why I keep wanting to circle
back to the power is inside you.

874
00:43:39,546 --> 00:43:39,636
Sadaf: Yeah.

875
00:43:40,205 --> 00:43:43,326
Eilat Aviram: You hold the power always.

876
00:43:43,605 --> 00:43:46,785
You have the power to
say yes or to say no.

877
00:43:47,096 --> 00:43:50,655
You're the only one who can know
I like this, I don't like that.

878
00:43:51,016 --> 00:43:56,475
You're the only one who can say, um, "This
lights me up," or, "This depletes me."

879
00:43:56,495 --> 00:43:56,926
Sadaf: Yeah.

880
00:43:56,965 --> 00:44:00,775
Eilat Aviram: You're the only one who
knows your history, your family, how you

881
00:44:00,775 --> 00:44:04,976
grew up, what your secret hopes and dreams
are, how it feels to be in your body.

882
00:44:05,335 --> 00:44:05,475
Sadaf: Mm.

883
00:44:05,486 --> 00:44:09,375
Eilat Aviram: There is only one
world expert on you, and that is you.

884
00:44:09,425 --> 00:44:09,785
Sadaf: Yeah.

885
00:44:10,506 --> 00:44:16,616
Eilat Aviram: And so to, to turn your
attention or to ask anybody else to

886
00:44:16,616 --> 00:44:21,606
give you input on what you should do,
shouldn't do, how it should feel, what's

887
00:44:21,606 --> 00:44:26,175
right for you, is giving away your power.

888
00:44:26,405 --> 00:44:26,885
Sadaf: Right.

889
00:44:27,405 --> 00:44:32,435
Eilat Aviram: Unless… And it's
ignoring the only world expert-

890
00:44:32,756 --> 00:44:33,185
Sadaf: Mm

891
00:44:33,266 --> 00:44:34,435
…
Eilat Aviram: on this one topic.

892
00:44:36,952 --> 00:44:39,832
And obviously you do want other
people's input and advice.

893
00:44:39,852 --> 00:44:43,382
I mean, I often will ask people, "What
do you think?" But I am, at the end of

894
00:44:43,382 --> 00:44:45,802
the day, the one who decides for me.

895
00:44:46,492 --> 00:44:47,591
Sadaf: So what can we do?

896
00:44:48,482 --> 00:44:51,352
Eilat Aviram: When you find yourself in
any situation where you have a decision

897
00:44:51,352 --> 00:44:56,212
to make or something feels uncomfortable,
something feels off, you're not sure

898
00:44:56,212 --> 00:44:59,562
about this friend, you're not sure
about that comment they just made.

899
00:45:00,311 --> 00:45:01,001
Mm. Something.

900
00:45:01,001 --> 00:45:02,082
There's discomfort.

901
00:45:02,432 --> 00:45:04,911
First of all, discomfort
is a massive gift.

902
00:45:05,442 --> 00:45:06,561
It's not something we're taught.

903
00:45:06,571 --> 00:45:09,861
Mm. Discomfort is telling…
is your body responding.

904
00:45:10,091 --> 00:45:12,571
Discomfort is your autonomic
nervous system going, "Ah,

905
00:45:12,572 --> 00:45:15,111
excuse me. Hello. Pay attention."

906
00:45:15,251 --> 00:45:15,711
Sadaf: Mm.

907
00:45:15,821 --> 00:45:17,941
Eilat Aviram: And what do we
normally do when we're uncomfortable?

908
00:45:19,012 --> 00:45:23,051
We try and make it go
away, in all sorts of ways.

909
00:45:23,091 --> 00:45:26,832
Either we'll leave the situation, which
sometimes is a good thing, but sometimes

910
00:45:26,832 --> 00:45:31,391
we'll, like, scroll on our phone or we'll
eat stuff- Yeah … that we shouldn't

911
00:45:31,391 --> 00:45:36,592
eat, or we'll binge-watch series, or we'll
work much more, or we'll, you know, we'll

912
00:45:36,592 --> 00:45:40,751
do stuff that we regret later because
we're trying to avoid the discomfort.

913
00:45:40,821 --> 00:45:41,231
Sadaf: Yeah.

914
00:45:41,272 --> 00:45:43,962
Eilat Aviram: But discomfort is
your system telling you to listen.

915
00:45:44,031 --> 00:45:44,551
Sadaf: Yeah.

916
00:45:44,651 --> 00:45:45,952
Eilat Aviram: So don't override it.

917
00:45:45,991 --> 00:45:46,391
Sadaf: Mm.

918
00:45:46,662 --> 00:45:50,872
Eilat Aviram: So when you find yourself
uncomfortable, pause, acknowledge the

919
00:45:50,872 --> 00:45:56,032
discomfort, and then ask this very
beautiful question, and that is this.

920
00:45:56,942 --> 00:46:01,231
If I loved myself, what
would I choose to do now?

921
00:46:03,854 --> 00:46:09,464
If I loved myself, in other words,
if I was my best friend looking at me

922
00:46:09,464 --> 00:46:13,254
compassionately in this situation, what
would my best friend guide me to do?

923
00:46:14,053 --> 00:46:18,263
If I really loved myself the way I love
my child or my dog or my partner or

924
00:46:18,263 --> 00:46:24,343
my whoever, what would I say to myself
now, and what would I choose to do now?

925
00:46:25,194 --> 00:46:30,104
So for you, for example, in those
situations where you didn't feel- Yeah

926
00:46:30,104 --> 00:46:34,903
… comfortable or something felt off, if in
that moment you had said, "Okay, hang on.

927
00:46:34,913 --> 00:46:35,603
Let me pause.

928
00:46:35,653 --> 00:46:37,003
I'm, I'm uncomfortable.

929
00:46:37,003 --> 00:46:38,213
I'm, I'm acknowledging it.

930
00:46:38,234 --> 00:46:40,144
Yay me for listening to my system.

931
00:46:40,734 --> 00:46:43,923
So now my system's trying to warn
me about something, so if I loved

932
00:46:43,924 --> 00:46:46,104
myself, what would I choose to do now?"

933
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:48,810
Sadaf: Hmm.

934
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:53,740
If I loved myself, what
would I choose to do?

935
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:57,080
What I want to do is I wanna ask
the person, "Why did you say that?"

936
00:46:57,659 --> 00:47:02,379
But that also feels very vulnerable,
especially when, uh, someone is saying

937
00:47:02,380 --> 00:47:08,279
it as a joke, and then suddenly you are
feel… like you feel like you are making

938
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,670
it serious when it was just a joke.

939
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:11,739
It was just a joke.

940
00:47:11,959 --> 00:47:15,410
It was just a joke, and why are you being
all weird about it and making it serious?

941
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,060
So I feel like what I would have
wanted to do at that point is to

942
00:47:19,060 --> 00:47:21,440
say, "What do you mean by that?"

943
00:47:21,799 --> 00:47:25,209
Or, "Why do you say that?" But I feel like
as soon as I say that, it's gonna shift

944
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:30,369
that dynamic from being jokes to, ooh- To-

945
00:47:30,669 --> 00:47:32,160
…
Eilat Aviram: you took it
seriously … back to intimacy.

946
00:47:32,369 --> 00:47:33,060
Sadaf: Uh, yeah.

947
00:47:33,229 --> 00:47:34,470
Eilat Aviram: Because that is intimate.

948
00:47:34,529 --> 00:47:35,129
Sadaf: Yes.

949
00:47:35,149 --> 00:47:37,099
Eilat Aviram: You're now
showing someone- That I

950
00:47:37,099 --> 00:47:37,649
Sadaf: felt bad.

951
00:47:37,739 --> 00:47:38,199
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.

952
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:39,790
You're showing something about yourself.

953
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:40,139
Sadaf: Yeah.

954
00:47:40,419 --> 00:47:44,499
Eilat Aviram: So you're shifting
that moment from ha ha ha ha ha- Yeah

955
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:45,669
to intimate.

956
00:47:45,759 --> 00:47:46,279
Sadaf: Yeah.

957
00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:48,859
Eilat Aviram: I want to let you
know that even though it looks

958
00:47:48,860 --> 00:47:52,040
like you meant that as a joke, it
actually was quite hurtful for me.

959
00:47:52,069 --> 00:47:52,569
Sadaf: Mm.

960
00:47:52,899 --> 00:47:55,069
Eilat Aviram: But again,
you're looking for patterns.

961
00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:55,890
Sadaf: Mm.

962
00:47:56,139 --> 00:47:58,729
Eilat Aviram: If you immediately
do that and you do it every time-

963
00:47:58,740 --> 00:47:59,060
Sadaf: Mm

964
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:00,570
…
Eilat Aviram: with everyone-

965
00:48:00,810 --> 00:48:00,880
Sadaf: Mm

966
00:48:01,329 --> 00:48:03,539
…
Eilat Aviram: people are gonna say
that you're a bit difficult- Mm

967
00:48:03,539 --> 00:48:04,479
or sensitive.

968
00:48:04,939 --> 00:48:09,920
But if with the same person or the
same group of friends, this is also

969
00:48:09,929 --> 00:48:13,550
really important because the people
who are listening might have a

970
00:48:13,550 --> 00:48:15,889
group of friends that they're not-
Yeah … feeling comfortable with.

971
00:48:15,889 --> 00:48:19,089
Sometimes a group will pick on
someone or shame one person.

972
00:48:20,020 --> 00:48:22,599
So we're back to the dancing,
we're back to all of the thing.

973
00:48:23,450 --> 00:48:29,190
If you consistently are not feeling
good, you can then say, "Listen, I'm

974
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:32,589
not sure if you mean it as a joke,
as just a joke, but I just have to

975
00:48:32,590 --> 00:48:34,369
tell you that that was hurtful to me.

976
00:48:34,639 --> 00:48:38,400
And also last week when you said that
thing, and then-" Mm … "you know,

977
00:48:38,409 --> 00:48:42,090
last year, the first time we met,
you said that thing, and actually

978
00:48:42,740 --> 00:48:44,489
I don't really find it funny."

979
00:48:44,499 --> 00:48:50,479
Mm. "Would you, would you please not do
that anymore?" And again, here's the test.

980
00:48:50,479 --> 00:48:56,629
If the person is, "I'm so sorry, I never
meant to." Mm. "I'll make every effort.

981
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:58,929
Please let me know if I say
things that are offensive.

982
00:48:58,930 --> 00:49:05,030
I'll make every effort not to," that's
a potentially very good friendship. But

983
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,820
if they say, "Oh, you're so sensitive.

984
00:49:07,820 --> 00:49:09,179
Can't you take a joke?

985
00:49:09,180 --> 00:49:10,270
What's wrong with you?

986
00:49:10,330 --> 00:49:17,880
Ugh, you're so heavy." Mm. That's a red
flag So again, coming back to the tango.

987
00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:23,600
Mm. If you are saying mean things to me-
Mm … and I don't like it, but I don't

988
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:28,190
say anything, then I'm continuing to
dance a tango that's making me unhappy.

989
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,720
Sadaf: You know what's, like, difficult
for me, uh, personally is that I think

990
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,969
in that moment, and I'm sure it happens
to other people, in that moment, I

991
00:49:35,979 --> 00:49:37,599
get, like, so, like, shell-shocked.

992
00:49:37,679 --> 00:49:37,959
Eilat Aviram: Mm.

993
00:49:38,229 --> 00:49:40,879
Sadaf: Because it's like an
affront to my nervous system.

994
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:41,180
Eilat Aviram: Mm.

995
00:49:42,089 --> 00:49:44,470
Sadaf: And then I have
no wor- I have no words.

996
00:49:44,499 --> 00:49:45,509
Can I practice?

997
00:49:45,529 --> 00:49:46,709
How do I practice this?

998
00:49:47,529 --> 00:49:49,239
Eilat Aviram: There's different
things that you can do.

999
00:49:49,310 --> 00:49:52,750
So first of all, if somebody asks
you something and, and you don't want

1000
00:49:52,759 --> 00:49:56,679
to- Mm … and you don't know what to
say, a beautiful thing to say is, "I

1001
00:49:56,679 --> 00:49:58,279
need to get back to you about that.

1002
00:49:58,310 --> 00:50:01,589
I need to think about it," or, "I need
to check my calendar," or, "I need to

1003
00:50:01,589 --> 00:50:05,769
go to the bathroom- Mm … and I'll get
back to you on that." Mm. So that buys

1004
00:50:05,770 --> 00:50:10,309
you time to let your autonomic nervous
system, which is what you're talking about

1005
00:50:10,319 --> 00:50:13,979
happens, that, "Ah," that fight is your
nervous system saying to you, "Danger.

1006
00:50:14,009 --> 00:50:14,449
Danger.

1007
00:50:14,479 --> 00:50:14,829
Danger.

1008
00:50:14,829 --> 00:50:19,199
Pay attention." So you step away, and
you give your system time to settle

1009
00:50:19,409 --> 00:50:23,049
because the other thing is that when
your nervous system goes online-

1010
00:50:23,169 --> 00:50:23,449
Sadaf: Mm

1011
00:50:23,459 --> 00:50:26,389
…
Eilat Aviram: your frontal cortex, which
is the part of you that can think and

1012
00:50:26,389 --> 00:50:31,529
plan and come up with clever answers-
Mm … it actually shuts down because

1013
00:50:31,529 --> 00:50:33,789
it's your primal brain that takes- Yeah

1014
00:50:33,839 --> 00:50:35,439
over to get you out of the danger.

1015
00:50:35,449 --> 00:50:35,469
Yeah.

1016
00:50:35,489 --> 00:50:37,869
And so there's no time
for an- analyzing things.

1017
00:50:37,879 --> 00:50:40,279
If a truck is coming, you
don't wanna be analyzing.

1018
00:50:40,540 --> 00:50:41,829
You want to get out the way.

1019
00:50:42,330 --> 00:50:43,900
So in that time, you can't actually think.

1020
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:44,420
Sadaf: Yeah.

1021
00:50:44,449 --> 00:50:45,949
Eilat Aviram: Which is what
explains you just like- Which is

1022
00:50:45,949 --> 00:50:47,989
Sadaf: why I always have the
clever answers the next day.

1023
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:48,709
Eilat Aviram: Exactly.

1024
00:50:48,959 --> 00:50:50,230
So there's two parts.

1025
00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:53,359
One is get yourself out of the
situation or buy yourself some time.

1026
00:50:53,369 --> 00:50:53,869
Sadaf: Mm.

1027
00:50:54,190 --> 00:50:56,409
"
Eilat Aviram: Can I… I will
get back to you tomorrow.

1028
00:50:56,679 --> 00:50:59,919
I need some time to think." And those
are very acceptable things. Like,

1029
00:50:59,919 --> 00:51:02,089
"Oh, that's an interesting request.

1030
00:51:02,110 --> 00:51:06,399
Um, I need to check some things, and
I'll get back to you about it tomorrow."

1031
00:51:06,849 --> 00:51:08,219
Then you've bought yourself time.

1032
00:51:08,799 --> 00:51:13,759
But the other thing is that if it's t- if
you didn't do that, there's a beautiful

1033
00:51:13,759 --> 00:51:18,779
key that allows you to reopen a situ- a
conversation any time, and that is to come

1034
00:51:18,779 --> 00:51:23,049
to someone and say, "I was thinking about
that comment you made three years ago."

1035
00:51:25,518 --> 00:51:26,748
Boom, it's open.

1036
00:51:27,138 --> 00:51:29,678
As soon as you say, "I
was thinking about…

1037
00:51:30,598 --> 00:51:33,158
I was thinking about what
happened yesterday." Hmm.

1038
00:51:34,038 --> 00:51:36,848
Can you see that the topic is
immediately available and ready?

1039
00:51:37,318 --> 00:51:40,348
I was thinking about that time
when we were kids 20 years ago.

1040
00:51:40,928 --> 00:51:42,007
Sadaf: I don't remember that.

1041
00:51:43,227 --> 00:51:44,147
It was so long ago.

1042
00:51:44,147 --> 00:51:44,368
It was

1043
00:51:44,377 --> 00:51:45,018
Eilat Aviram: so long ago.

1044
00:51:45,317 --> 00:51:48,457
Well, and but then I would tell you,
but the conversation is now open.

1045
00:51:48,598 --> 00:51:49,137
Mm-hmm.

1046
00:51:49,168 --> 00:51:53,387
So you could come back to that person
who's hurt you and say, "I was thinking

1047
00:51:53,387 --> 00:51:58,157
about what happened last Friday, and
I wanted to let you know that even

1048
00:51:58,157 --> 00:52:02,307
though it seemed like you were joking,
I actually felt quite stung by that."

1049
00:52:02,577 --> 00:52:03,107
Sadaf: Hmm.

1050
00:52:03,887 --> 00:52:07,698
Eilat Aviram: And then you wait to
see what they do with that But if

1051
00:52:07,698 --> 00:52:11,938
you don't say something, then you
are dancing the tango, my friend.

1052
00:52:12,668 --> 00:52:19,058
Sometimes our task is to learn how
to stop dancing the tango when we no

1053
00:52:19,068 --> 00:52:24,098
longer want to dance the tango, and
then someone who demands a tango is

1054
00:52:24,098 --> 00:52:26,397
actually a very helpful teacher for us.

1055
00:52:27,438 --> 00:52:30,448
Like, if you need to set
boundaries, then having a friend

1056
00:52:30,448 --> 00:52:33,737
who transgresses your boundaries
is actually a, a teacher for you.

1057
00:52:33,737 --> 00:52:34,638
It's like a coach.

1058
00:52:34,657 --> 00:52:39,787
It's like a personal training Mm … for
learning how to set a boundary.

1059
00:52:39,868 --> 00:52:40,528
Sadaf: Mm.

1060
00:52:40,618 --> 00:52:48,788
Eilat Aviram: Or if you need to work on,
um, speaking your mind or, um, walking

1061
00:52:48,788 --> 00:52:55,387
away or changing the relationship by
saying, "I prefer to be spoken to with

1062
00:52:55,407 --> 00:53:00,107
kindness and respect. Could… This and
this didn't feel respectful to me. Can

1063
00:53:00,107 --> 00:53:02,418
we, can we do it differently from now on?"

1064
00:53:03,647 --> 00:53:07,507
Sadaf: So are you telling me that
it sounds like friendships that

1065
00:53:07,537 --> 00:53:13,227
are, that maybe hurt us or break us
are actually the friendships that

1066
00:53:13,228 --> 00:53:18,157
might be teaching us to listen to
ourselves more and trust ourselves?

1067
00:53:18,188 --> 00:53:18,498
Eilat Aviram: Yes.

1068
00:53:19,008 --> 00:53:24,547
Sadaf: Um, yeah, I wonder if it's that
or if it's just, like, a nice story

1069
00:53:25,508 --> 00:53:28,967
that I tell myself to be like, "Oh,
well, I mean, at least it's a nice

1070
00:53:28,967 --> 00:53:31,518
learning opportunity," but actually,
like, the real thing is like, "Hey,

1071
00:53:31,518 --> 00:53:34,987
why did you, uh, why did you get into
that relationship, and why did you

1072
00:53:34,997 --> 00:53:37,377
s- stay so long until you got hurt?"

1073
00:53:37,717 --> 00:53:37,937
Eilat Aviram: Mm-hmm.

1074
00:53:37,947 --> 00:53:40,498
And hey, why do I have five
people like this in my life?

1075
00:53:40,527 --> 00:53:41,117
Sadaf: Yes.

1076
00:53:41,217 --> 00:53:42,418
Eilat Aviram: But that's your learning.

1077
00:53:42,548 --> 00:53:42,618
Yeah.

1078
00:53:42,618 --> 00:53:44,367
The common denominator is you.

1079
00:53:44,517 --> 00:53:45,058
Mm-hmm.

1080
00:53:45,067 --> 00:53:50,867
So if the lesson is to set boundaries,
then you need to learn to set boundaries,

1081
00:53:50,868 --> 00:53:55,067
which means to slowly either change
those relationships or leave them.

1082
00:53:55,567 --> 00:53:55,937
Sadaf: Mm.

1083
00:53:56,258 --> 00:53:57,377
Eilat Aviram: That will be the learning.

1084
00:53:58,137 --> 00:54:02,417
So it's not, "Oh, this person must be
teaching me a lesson, and therefore

1085
00:54:02,417 --> 00:54:06,237
I should stay and continue this
dynamic that's hurting me." No.

1086
00:54:06,697 --> 00:54:11,507
It's, "Oh, this person's here to teach
me a lesson to help me overcome dynamics

1087
00:54:11,508 --> 00:54:15,557
that are hurting me so I no longer
attract them or participate in them."

1088
00:54:16,708 --> 00:54:19,017
Sadaf: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

1089
00:54:20,197 --> 00:54:22,897
I want to close by asking
you about yourself.

1090
00:54:23,117 --> 00:54:23,597
Eilat Aviram: Okay.

1091
00:54:24,167 --> 00:54:31,917
Sadaf: So y- how did you… So you,
you're all about self-loving decisions

1092
00:54:31,938 --> 00:54:38,888
and how to, how to love ourselves
better, and, um, I wanna know how you

1093
00:54:38,888 --> 00:54:43,077
came to this conclusion that it all
starts and ends with loving yourself.

1094
00:54:46,932 --> 00:54:49,972
Eilat Aviram: Well, again, I come back
to loving yourself is meeting your needs

1095
00:54:50,012 --> 00:54:50,572
Sadaf: Mm

1096
00:54:50,632 --> 00:54:57,042
Eilat Aviram: And I think in my childhood,
I watched my mom not look after herself,

1097
00:54:57,202 --> 00:55:00,322
and it didn't bode well for any of us.

1098
00:55:00,842 --> 00:55:06,092
And I remember really wanting,
wishing, wishing that she could stand

1099
00:55:06,101 --> 00:55:11,001
up for herself and, and look after
herself in the way that she needed

1100
00:55:11,001 --> 00:55:14,512
because it would make me, as a little
person, feel safer in the world.

1101
00:55:14,591 --> 00:55:14,911
Yeah.

1102
00:55:15,601 --> 00:55:18,102
'Cause when you see your parents
not being able to do it, it

1103
00:55:18,102 --> 00:55:19,882
makes you feel very unsafe.

1104
00:55:20,371 --> 00:55:25,071
And so I think, uh, you know, in a
way, you go out to try and heal your

1105
00:55:25,071 --> 00:55:27,172
own wounding by helping other people.

1106
00:55:27,751 --> 00:55:34,731
I definitely have healed much of that
now, but it's where I learned that loving

1107
00:55:34,731 --> 00:55:38,591
yourself or looking after yourself is
the least selfish thing that you can do.

1108
00:55:38,792 --> 00:55:42,371
Mm. Because it really does
help everybody around you.

1109
00:55:42,382 --> 00:55:47,742
Mm. If you don't listen to yourself,
if you participate in dynamics

1110
00:55:47,751 --> 00:55:51,671
that are hurtful, they also hurt
the person, the other person

1111
00:55:51,672 --> 00:55:53,051
who's involved in it with you.

1112
00:55:54,462 --> 00:55:57,811
But when you stop it, everybody
grows, everybody benefits,

1113
00:55:57,821 --> 00:55:59,732
everyone is safe- safer

1114
00:56:05,070 --> 00:56:08,480
Sadaf: Is that something you learned or
did you come to that conclusion yourself?

1115
00:56:08,780 --> 00:56:09,330
Eilat Aviram: Which part

1116
00:56:09,330 --> 00:56:09,680
Sadaf: of it?

1117
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:13,909
Well, about how loving yourself is
safer for everyone around you and

1118
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:15,180
is, like, the better thing to do.

1119
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:18,450
I'm curious to know how did you come
to that, because it's so counter.

1120
00:56:18,450 --> 00:56:21,370
And I don't know if that… Is that
something they teach in psychology school?

1121
00:56:21,370 --> 00:56:21,530
I don't know.

1122
00:56:21,539 --> 00:56:21,929
Eilat Aviram: No.

1123
00:56:21,970 --> 00:56:22,000
Yeah.

1124
00:56:22,099 --> 00:56:24,589
Well, I mean, I suppose
maybe sometimes in a way.

1125
00:56:25,609 --> 00:56:29,890
Um, I've been working with
people for almost 30 years now.

1126
00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:30,370
Sadaf: Mm.

1127
00:56:30,459 --> 00:56:36,140
Eilat Aviram: And I have watched
people neglect themselves, override

1128
00:56:36,140 --> 00:56:40,680
themselves, not listen to their truth,
and it never goes well for anybody.

1129
00:56:41,259 --> 00:56:41,559
Sadaf: Yeah.

1130
00:56:41,730 --> 00:56:44,270
Eilat Aviram: Unhappy moms
have unhappy children.

1131
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:44,680
Sadaf: Yeah.

1132
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,099
Eilat Aviram: Unhappy teachers
have unhappy students.

1133
00:56:47,329 --> 00:56:49,819
Unhappy bosses have unhappy employees.

1134
00:56:50,109 --> 00:56:54,809
Nobody's ever happy around someone who's
not looking after themselves to the point

1135
00:56:54,809 --> 00:56:56,689
where they feel resentful and unhappy.

1136
00:56:57,399 --> 00:57:03,510
So it makes sense that if you look after
yourself, you're benefiting the community.

1137
00:57:04,279 --> 00:57:07,829
And it's interesting 'cause in my,
um, courses where I teach healthcare

1138
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:11,729
practitioners how to make self-loving
decisions, and I have CPD courses

1139
00:57:11,739 --> 00:57:16,640
on that, I work with a lot of
different culture groups, right?

1140
00:57:16,669 --> 00:57:20,980
And there are a lot of culture groups
in, in, uh, in South Africa and in many

1141
00:57:20,980 --> 00:57:26,559
other places, but here especially that
I'm famili- more familiar with, where it's

1142
00:57:26,570 --> 00:57:30,070
really not okay to use the word I or me.

1143
00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:30,429
Sadaf: Yeah.

1144
00:57:30,570 --> 00:57:31,349
Eilat Aviram: It's we.

1145
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:32,039
Mm. It's us.

1146
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:32,430
Mm-hmm.

1147
00:57:32,430 --> 00:57:37,040
And this concept of loving yourself feels
like you are betraying your culture,

1148
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:38,469
you're betraying your family- Yeah

1149
00:57:38,470 --> 00:57:39,809
you're betraying your community.

1150
00:57:40,699 --> 00:57:44,540
And what's absolutely fascinating
is that as we go through the course-

1151
00:57:46,464 --> 00:57:49,524
I have a YouTube video where I
interviewed one of the women.

1152
00:57:49,534 --> 00:57:54,884
She's a isiXhosa woman, and she speaks
about the journey she went on inside

1153
00:57:54,884 --> 00:57:57,984
of herself of meeting this loving
yourself concept, where she felt

1154
00:57:57,994 --> 00:58:02,043
like she was betraying her culture,
and where she came to the side of,

1155
00:58:02,294 --> 00:58:06,864
"But wait a minute, I'm not betraying
my community, I am the community."

1156
00:58:07,213 --> 00:58:10,263
'Cause I think in a lot of ways,
like, the Western white culture is

1157
00:58:10,264 --> 00:58:12,593
known to be much more individualistic.

1158
00:58:12,594 --> 00:58:12,634
Yes.

1159
00:58:12,654 --> 00:58:15,293
And this whole like, "Oh, I
love myself." And as a white

1160
00:58:15,293 --> 00:58:16,693
woman, here I am preaching it.

1161
00:58:17,394 --> 00:58:20,374
But it's not, it's not just that.

1162
00:58:20,934 --> 00:58:25,473
It's, for me, it's the way…
I've been speaking about Trump, so

1163
00:58:25,473 --> 00:58:27,223
I'll just bring in world leaders.

1164
00:58:27,263 --> 00:58:32,084
I think if world leaders genuinely
loved themselves and looked after

1165
00:58:32,084 --> 00:58:34,444
themselves, we would have world peace.

1166
00:58:35,053 --> 00:58:37,794
Sadaf: I don't think
capitalism is self-loving.

1167
00:58:37,803 --> 00:58:41,974
It seems self-serving, but actually,
we are screwing ourselves by

1168
00:58:41,993 --> 00:58:45,484
participating in this system, and I
wanna hear your thoughts about that.

1169
00:58:46,484 --> 00:58:48,763
Eilat Aviram: Cata- capitalism, exactly.

1170
00:58:49,493 --> 00:58:56,383
Catastrophic capita- Capitalism
benefits from us not valuing ourselves.

1171
00:58:56,393 --> 00:58:59,943
Mm. Because if you don't believe you
have worth, you're going to try and

1172
00:58:59,943 --> 00:59:04,453
buy that car and that house and those
clothes and that course to try and

1173
00:59:04,454 --> 00:59:06,064
make you feel better about yourself.

1174
00:59:06,583 --> 00:59:13,173
And so it really, um… Yeah, I
completely agree that it is the

1175
00:59:13,173 --> 00:59:17,703
opposite of self-loving, because
it's not meeting your real needs.

1176
00:59:17,713 --> 00:59:21,653
Mm. It's helping you to do the addiction
thing, which is to try and meet your

1177
00:59:21,653 --> 00:59:25,483
needs and make yourself feel better
by using an external thing, rather

1178
00:59:25,484 --> 00:59:30,203
than the real place, which is plugging
into the energy that exists there.

1179
00:59:30,443 --> 00:59:30,603
Yes.

1180
00:59:30,603 --> 00:59:32,703
So the energy that exists for everybody.

1181
00:59:32,774 --> 00:59:33,594
Sadaf: Yes.

1182
00:59:33,643 --> 00:59:34,933
Yeah, that makes so much sense.

1183
00:59:35,344 --> 00:59:36,413
Thank you so much, Ela.

1184
00:59:36,433 --> 00:59:38,723
Eilat Aviram: That was wonderful
and- Thank you very much.

1185
00:59:38,734 --> 00:59:38,754
Yeah.

1186
00:59:39,103 --> 00:59:40,243
Sadaf: Thanks for listening today.

1187
00:59:40,423 --> 00:59:43,283
I hope you found today's episode
insightful and inspiring.

1188
00:59:43,414 --> 00:59:46,913
If you enjoyed this episode,
please subscribe, leave a review,

1189
00:59:47,223 --> 00:59:48,313
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1190
00:59:48,963 --> 00:59:52,443
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1191
00:59:52,984 --> 00:59:57,553
And until next time, don't be a sheep,
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1192
00:59:57,553 --> 00:59:59,574
never stop exploring the extraordinary.