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Welcome to Accessibility and Practice Accessible Community, where we talk with people shaping a more accessible world.
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I'm Adam 55, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by Peter Slate, a leading voice in disability and accessibility.
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Thanks so much for being here, Peter.
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Thank you, Adam.
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I'm so happy to be here and to be part of this.
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I'm really excited for it.
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Yeah, so let's dive in.
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Uh first off, can you tell us a bit about your background and what drew you into the field of disability and accessibility?
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Well, uh sure.
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I'm a blind man.
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Um I've gone slowly blind over the course of my life.
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I'm 71.
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Uh I have both retinitis pigmentosa, which destroys your night vision and also your peripheral vision, and I have macular degeneration, which I got in my 40s, which destroys your central vision.
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So I now see thousands, hundreds of thousands, billions of lights flashing in front of my eyes all the time.
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And um, I do have some light perception.
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I got into accessibility as a profession only about um not even 15 years ago.
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I worked as a journalist for most of my career and wrote not only occasionally did I write about accessibility and disability, um, but I wrote more mostly about architecture uh and urban design issues and commercial real estate and finance, all relating to the built environment.
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Um and so I got to occasionally explore accessible design, universal design, whatever you want to call it.
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Um but then in 2012, I just an opportunity arose for me to dive fully into this world.
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Whereas before I'd always said uh I didn't want to be a professional blind person, that is, make my living as a person who is blind because I'm blind.
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Um I completely reversed course and said, you know, I'm happy to uh be part of that.
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And I'm gonna uh hear a siren in the back because I'm in New York City.
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Well, that's that's really interesting to hear.
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So I mean, not the siren, the uh story.
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Um okay, so it sounds like you um you kind of you had that reversible, of course.
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Um so would you say that was the particular moment that uh that kind of shaped your journey and that uh yes, yeah.
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I I mean I basically um you know I had as a journalist and and I founded and ran a magazine and a website and we won editorial awards, etc.
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And I traveled all across the US and uh globally, tracking down stories, writing down stories, finding writers' interesting things, et cetera.
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Um, and I was always, you know, as a blind person, really upset and annoyed at um the way I was treated by people in customer service, whether it was at an airport, in a taxi, at a hotel, a restaurant, a store.
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And I I thought, why isn't there a program to train these folks how to interact with people with disabilities?
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And then one day I was trying to go into a store where I'd been before, a big store, like a grocery store, and I had my guide dog, and uh and on previous visits uh they'd assign me to a human to guide us through the store so I could get what I needed.
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Well, on this occasion, uh they said, I'm sorry, we've we spoke to our lawyers, or our our lawyers spoke to us and said, You are a liability and we can't let you in.
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Oh my god.
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Yeah.
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And uh I'll name names.
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The store was Italy, um the huge, wonderful.
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I know Italy.
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Wow.
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And I just I just you know flipped out.
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Was very unpleasant.
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And um made an appointment to go visit their um head of HR the next day.
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Or maybe it was, yeah, I think it was HR, head of training, whatever.
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And I went to their offices and I spoke to them and I said, you know, I've long wanted to develop a program to train people in customer service about service to people with disabilities.
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And because I definitely didn't want this to be just about blind people, uh, but to run the gamut.
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And um they were interested, but not really, and I knew I wouldn't get any money.
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So I went off and sat about set about designing a program that I could use.
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I'm not an educator, I'm not a trainer, but I am blind and I have experience, I write, I think.
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So I created a program that I thought would work in the settings I envisioned it in.
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And I took that to the owner of a uh CEO of a hotel company I'd known for years, and and said, This is what I'd like to do.
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What do you think?
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And he said, Send me a proposal.
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And so I got off to a good start.
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That's great a long time ago.
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Okay, so it sounds like you uh you have a pretty pretty impressive background in disability and accessibility.
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Um so based on that experience, you know, are there any particular myths or misconceptions about disability and accessibility that you find yourself always correcting?
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Um I think there are there are many.
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You know, I I break the world into, I break the the world of accessibility into um three elements, three foundations, however you want to call them.
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Um, and that is how I approach what I do.
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You know, we all are familiar with the physical accessibility, um, how to design places, um, the built environment to be fully accessible, and that is the biggest change we've seen because that of course started in 1990.
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And um, you know, people are familiar with that, whether they really want to deal with it or not, but um it's out there, it's mostly well understood.
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Um, then there's digital accessibility, meaning websites, um apps, uh anything media related, um, videos, movies, uh you name it.
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What how do you make this digital material accessible so that uh someone who is print disabled, um which can be anyone who is blind, or someone who is dyslexic or ADHD, or uh you name it, has has a condition that makes it difficult for them to read.
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Uh has uh mobility uh a digital dexterity issue with um manipulating a mouse or whatever on a computer.
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So digital accessibility is a real thing, and even though it is still even though it's been talked about for decades now, it is still really misunderstood um by people in the web design and and uh development world.
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Um it is uh because it's a complicated thing, um, but there are ways to design a website or whatever you design so that it is fully accessible.
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And you know, just like it's it can be expensive to take a building that was built before 1990 and retrofit it to be accessible, um it's so much easier to do it from the start.
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And the same is true with web design.
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So that's digital accessibility, and that's a big work in progress.
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But I call what I do social accessibility.
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Uh someone said it was cultural accessibility, I'll go with that too.
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But because I'm not an architect and I'm not a coder or developer, but I am very much in the world, and I believe the biggest barrier to accessibility, to full integration of people with disabilities into society is social, more than physical, more than digital, because it precedes everything.
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If we understand disability as just another way of living, rather than all these other things, like meaning you're you're broken or you're ill or you're pitiable or you know, low expectations you can't achieve.
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Um if we have a society that accepts disability as a natural and normal way to be that can be improved upon, you can that needs accommodation, all that can be met, but then we can start to see design, the world of design, whether it's digital or physical, make accommodations from the start rather than have to rethink everything later.
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Yeah, being proactive rather than reactive.
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Yeah, that's interesting.
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Thank you.
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Uh I want to go back to your question, which led into my long disquisition, but one of the most difficult thing things that happens, I think, for any person with any disability, any um certainly with apparent disabilities, um, is physical touch from other people.
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Other people always want to help me, and so they will grab me without thinking, they'll push me and pull me.
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And of course, if if I can say use your words, you know, tell me that the chair is behind me, don't push me into it, you know.
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But and this can be on a scale that's anywhere from annoying and humiliating to very dangerous.
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Um, so it's something to be aware of.
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Yet I do know that um people for people who um use ASL, who uh speak ASL, uh, and for deaf people in general, touch is is an important thing.
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Um, so it's not the same for everybody, but I know for for me, for my friends who are wheelchair users, they often find that someone interferes with them physically.
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So yeah, I'd say that's that's a a very um fulsome uh illustration of or uh of what is in the way, what gets between someone with a disability and participating in society.
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Yeah, so I just want to uh I want to follow up on one thing you said.
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So it's what you were saying, like accessibility isn't one size fits all, right?
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So so how do you see how do you see things like race, gender, or economic status or other kind of intersecting um identities interacting with the stability?
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Well, this is a wonderful question because you know, in our um theoretically broke woke environments where nobody we we don't want to think about diversity and gosh, it's terrifying to to think about diversity.
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Um of course, you know, I I used to say that accessibility and disability were the poor stepchildren of the DEI movement, because the DEI movement grew out of race and gender um discrimination.
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Uh and then just grew from there and um accessibility became something of an afterthought.
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And did it belong there?
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Did it not belong there?
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But the truth is accessibility, disability itself is the most intersectional of all of these things that make up a diverse world.
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Um it's it doesn't care for age, it doesn't care for race, for gender, for sexual orientation, for um uh religion, right?
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You know, yeah.
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It it just doesn't it doesn't disability doesn't discriminate.
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And that's that's what I've always kind of said and heard, yeah.
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And so does this mean that it is uh not about diversity?
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No, it doesn't because diversity uh because we haven't as a flip as a society really come to the point where we accept people with disabilities fully into the workplace, into the social environment.
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Um you know, the stats on unemployment for people with disabilities are just um are huge.
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And I'm I want to say something about 30% of people with disabilities have some kind of employment.
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Um I believe it's actually less.
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I yeah.
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I don't know the latest statistics, but uh so don't hold me to that.
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But but I think that's in the ballpark.
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You know, so of course we we know that when people with different points of view and different life histories, different um cultures and races and um all kinds of differences get together, they are going to produce more interesting um products, more interesting uh services, more interesting approaches to business um and to any other organization.
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They're going to enhance an organization rather than um uh distract from it or or or um subtract from it.
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And there's so much fear about that from the normative status quo.
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And uh, you know, we're living with that fear extremely um out there right now, uh doing its best to shout, go away people with disabilities, or black people, or people of anything that's not white, cisgender male, please go away.
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To me, it's just that's just the last gasp.
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Um it may be a very long and painful last gasp.
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This is not to dismiss it, but in the end, I think that will that will not be the way society is.
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Um yeah.
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So let's uh let's zoom in a little bit.
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Okay.
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So thinking about kind of policy and best practices.
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What are some really tangible things that you wish every organization would do to build a more inclusive environment and more accessible environments?
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I would ask them to look at their make sure their website is fully accessible, make sure their space is fully accessible, help make sure that their employees with disabilities feel safe disclosing.
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You know, disclosing is always difficult because if you don't disclose that you have a disability but you need an accommodation, um, but you try and hide it or pass with a, you know, whatever you want to call it, um, you're gonna your performance will suffer.
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On the other hand, there's a good reason that people don't disclose, which is they fear discrimination, ignorance, you know, most most discrimination stems from ignorance, from fear, from you know, uh fear of being, oh, I don't want to be like that.
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Oh, and when people say, Oh, it's must be horrible to be blind, or they ask, which is worse to be blind or deaf, or you know, these questions.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I think they have to look within, and then they can look without and you can create that like I see uh just a spreading ripple.
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You know, if you start with your yourselves and your own company, and you look at the bottom and the top, and you and you engage in honest conversation, uh, you know, this I don't want to be too Pollyanish, but you have to look at your employees, then look at your vendors and look at your customers, and how can you make make things inclusive?
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And what is inclusion about?
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You know, I have my own issue with the word inclusion because getting back to my earlier points about living we're all living normally, um if someone wants to include me, what right do they have uh to include me?
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I'm here already.
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I'm included, so when why are you deciding to include me when you can certainly decide to exclude, but I can still be included if if I insist on it.
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And inclusion is to me, it's it's just a way of reaffirming the um the privilege, reaffirming privilege.
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Not all barriers are created equal.
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This is true, and you you raise a really good point, and you know, um I guess the question comes down to how do you want that credit to be allocated, to be given, to be shown?
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Um and how do you want not to um exploit it?
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Um or if you feel like you can exploit it, when is it okay to exploit it?
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When is it not okay to exploit it?
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Do I use my privilege to pre-board a plane because I have a guide dog?
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Yes, I do.
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Um do I absolutely have to?
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No, I don't.
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But I appreciate the opportunity.
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That's a good example.
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Yeah.
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Okay, so um so speaking of kind of the the interpersonal aspect of uh and like criminate and kind of how how we use how we um kind of interact with our disabilities, what advi and and people around us, what advice do you have for people with disabilities or their advocates as they navigate a world that often doesn't understand what they're going through?
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Wow, this is a great question.
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And I will say what one of my professors, my I'll say it, my painting professor said in um when I was taking classes to earn a Bachelor of Fine Arts in painting, when I had much more vision, I was still already legally blind, but I love painting.
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And she said to the class, she said, Do as I say, not as I do.
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And I say that because I have a very hard time um when someone uh acts out in a way that is upsetting because I have a disability um that somehow makes me feel diminished, um humiliated, whatever.
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I try to control my rage.
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Um but So in other words, my advice is um just let it ride over you and try to explain where you are, or just say, Yeah, well, you're wrong.
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Do do something that just shows that you are in control of yourself in the situation rather than flipping out and screaming at them because they are, you know, ignorant, foolish, bigoted people, yes.
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Um, which is not to say you have to be all you know like the nicey nicy person.
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You can be, you know, nasty, but do it without you know uh screaming.
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But I, you know, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna digress.
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I just recently heard a a discussion uh about you know, that there are people who are urging, you know, we must be civils.
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They're urging civility, which is what I just did.
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But then someone said, well, civility is the tool of the privileged to control the underprivileged, the those the a tool for the the those who have it have whatever to control people who don't but want, you know.
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So if I can say, well, you have to be civil, don't get all angry.
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So I just told everyone to be civil, and I'm not gonna say forget it, don't be civil, just be smart, I guess I'll say.
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Yeah.
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Be attuned to the situation.
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Pick your battles.
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I think picking your battles is also part of that.
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That's kind of a subset of it.
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Okay.
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Um, so speaking of kind of uh being smart and uh trying to figure out how to pick your battles, for listeners who want to make a difference, what's one thing they could do to start supporting disability rights and better access?
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Well, I'd say whether you have a disability or or you want to be an ally, think about where your strength is.
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What what do you love to do?
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How do you love to relate to people?
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Um where do you think you can add to the discussion, whether it's around education, whether it's around web disability, web, you know, digital accessibility, whether it's around um physical access to some to spaces and design, um, or whether it's about social interaction, about um helping people to learn more about disability and more about accessibility.
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Find what is your strength?
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Where do you where where do you think you can have the most impact with the least amount of um just excess energy?
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So you can put your energy to work fruitfully.
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Um, that's what I'd say.
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Think about and think and you can do that, you can also think about um who do you know in your family or your friends and colleagues?
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What experience do you have of disability that you can um from someone else that you can say, oh, I you know, I learned something from listening to my uncle talk about his deafness or uh something like that.
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What can you bring to the table that brings your perspective but also acknowledges theirs and then built on it?
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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I mean, even I'm sorry, if if you're an attorney or um a uh an activist or whatever, and you want to get involved in policy, that's you know, and you feel like you have not only an understanding of the law or want to get an understanding of the law, but you also have uh the gift of persuasion, and you feel like you can really help advocate for whatever, whether it's um accessible transportation, um accessible spaces, accessible uh uh braille literacy.
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Um where do you see yourself bring bringing the biggest and best self?
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Yeah, well that's a good one.
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Um okay, so switching gears a little bit.
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Uh let's talk about tech for a minute.
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Okay.
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What innovations are you genuinely excited about in terms of improving accessibility?
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And are there underrated low-tech solutions you think deserve more attention?
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Yeah, great question.
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Um I'm well, I love screen readers.
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You know, I just love them because they are my key to the world, you know, as a writer, as a reader, um, God, with but without them, you know.
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And since I didn't learn Braille until I was 60 and my braille reading is very slow, that's just wonderful to have those that availability.
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I'm so what I'm excited about is there are a few things.
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Um I'm actually excited to watch how uh things like meta glasses develop.
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Um I know people who love them.
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I tried them once.
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I'm not sure yet, but maybe at some point, you know, they'll be what I want.
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Um I love that people are uh trying hard to develop new things, new new ways of for blind people to be oriented in their world.
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Um whether you're indoors or outdoors.
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Uh I'm gonna make here's a caution, uh, and I say this from experience, lived experience.
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I know some allies who are very involved in tech for blind people.
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And they have, of course, the best of intentions.
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:53.440
They really want to make a difference, but they don't hire or listen to blind people.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:04.640
So you can't you can't have uh you can't have a disability and accessibility podcast without saying nothing about us without us, right?
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:05.440
Yes.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:16.000
Um, so you know, and I think I get it that they they want really to help, but um don't be afraid also.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.519
So I'm I'm interested in I I will want to watch that.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:36.240
I want to see when wheelchairs become um ergonomic and uh um adaptable to individual bodies.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:40.480
And you know, when when will that happen?
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:41.519
Why is that so hard?
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.200
What is what is stopping that from happening happening?
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:53.119
Whether it's uh you know, I don't know because it's not my world, but uh there are companies that control the manufacture of wheelchairs.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.240
When will airlines in learn not to break or lose wheelchairs?
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:06.720
When you know, but technology is great, and it's making life better, improving the world for us.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:17.920
I, you know, but personally I'm more excited about people learning about disability.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:19.200
Yeah.
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:21.359
Well that makes complete sense.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:26.480
Um so okay, here's another question.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:28.000
I'm ready.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:37.119
Do you have a defa a f you know, you you've been working with uh kind of companies, institutions uh for a while.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:45.119
Do you have a favorite example of a company or institution that's getting it right or at least making real progress?
00:30:45.920 --> 00:31:01.839
I think, you know, it's my whether if my experience is good, um when I go someplace, you know, someone once asked me, uh, what's the most accessible experience you've ever had in New York City?
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:08.480
And I said, I don't know what that is because if it was super accessible, I just did it.
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.640
You know, um yeah, yeah.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.400
It just happened, you know.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:19.440
Um I have had some, I think I've had some great experiences at museums.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:50.400
Uh the Guggenheim Museum takes uh has done a great job of and the Whitney and MoMA have have done really worked hard to bring uh blind and low vision people, people uh with autism um or developmental disabilities into the museum world to um to show them things on uh in a ways that they can understand.
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:56.240
And I I think that's so important and so impressive.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:03.599
Um that's uh you know, and I I think museums are actually ahead of the curve.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:12.559
You know, cities, there are some cities that try hard, um, but cities are incredibly complicated organisms, you know.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:35.839
Um they can pledge to try and be accessible, but you know, it's it's uh it's a big, it's a big ask, but I think hiring people to deal with it, paying real money, um not just again, not just beyond lip service, beyond the accessibility statement on your website.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:55.759
What can you do to enrich the experience of accessibility in your city, in your home, in your place of business, whatever, wherever you go, what can you do to be aware that it's not something to fear, but something to embrace?
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:59.039
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.200
So, how about airlines?
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.400
Have some been more accessible than others?
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.200
I'm sorry, some which airlines?
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:08.559
Airlines.
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.480
Um, no.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:24.640
I will say I know that Delta has a robust program that's like an advisory group, disability advisory group.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:34:10.480
And the airlines in general have there's an airline advisory group, and there, you know, there's um lots of there's an organization called Open Doors uh organization ODO, which is um really focuses on training training airlines or really focuses more on airports, but for all the work they do, what happens is it gets down to the individual um flight attendant or gate attendant who no matter how many times they've been told, don't speak to a guide dog, don't pet it or feed it without asking the handler.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:17.280
They may have been told this, but um they don't follow that.
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:27.039
Every airline I've ever flown flown on has someone has you know broken that protocol and um someone professionally.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:28.400
Uh yeah.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:33.360
So, you know, I think I think there's so much work to be done with airlines.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:41.920
Um Amtrak is trying, but I've had great and poor experiences with Amtrak.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:51.440
I think the rideshare companies have a lot to lot to um a lot to apologize for.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:35:01.599
They um absolutely you know, and everyone knows this, and you know, it goes to the heart of what I do as a trainer and educator.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:08.000
Is why is it so hard to offer this service to people?
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:09.679
And sure, it would help me.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:16.159
I would you know make a lot more money if if if um such programs were much more widespread.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:30.880
But the point is it's painless and it's helpful, and uh the costs are minimal compared to with the cost of you know litigation or whatever.
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:43.440
And you know, remember when uh was it I think it was Domino's or I think Domino's, you know, uh there's a big lawsuit, you know, it was a web accessibility lawsuit lawsuit.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:52.639
Yeah, Domino's spent a couple million dollars trying to defend themselves when the fix would have been$38,000 at the time, you know.
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:59.679
Um and you have to again, and that's where money comes into this equation.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:32.639
If you have spent your if your business, and you as a as a leader of the business, um, have spent your your career um creating budgets and designing budgets and and pricing and all that, and of course you haven't thought about disability, whether it's your your employees or your customers, and then somebody asks you to think about it, there's then it suddenly it will appear expensive.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.199
Yeah.
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:37.760
Um and it will really cost that's money I I don't have.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:51.119
Um, but if you think about it from the start and you realize, okay, if I don't include these people, I'm cutting off a huge portion of the population that has real spending power.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:51.599
Yeah.
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:56.079
That is eager and excited to go out and be part of the world.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:57.840
But how many people with disabilities?
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:10.320
And I know them, they don't go outside because they are afraid uh physically for their safety, or they are afraid that someone will just be an asshole.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:17.760
Just like with design, if you if you start designing buildings with doors that everyone can use, everyone will use it.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:27.679
If you create buildings that have you know five stairs up and a heavy door handle with no push, then you've excluded you know millions of people from your building.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:28.960
Yeah.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:29.920
You know?
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:31.280
Okay, Peter.
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:32.480
Last question.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:33.519
Yes, sir.
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.000
What's coming up on the horizon?
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:43.280
Any new laws, technologies, or cultural moments in accessibility that you're especially watching?
00:37:45.599 --> 00:38:00.159
I'd love to see in just a growing awareness of um audio description in um and broadcast media, uh, broadcast streaming, whatever you want to call it.
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:11.920
Um I think there are some amazing um technological developments out there um that people are working hard to do.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:33.519
I'm I'm excited about the rise of the growth in um venture capital that put into helping create new things, new ways for people with disabilities to participate in the world.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:41.599
And you know, this wasn't a thing, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:39:01.599
I think now there are actual uh organizations, um fund managers raising capital to to invest in whether it's in accessible real estate or accessible uh vehicles.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.280
I mean, I for one amount looking forward to the growth of the autonomous vehicle.
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.920
I've ridden in one, I had a great experience.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:16.320
Um and uh you know I I'm looking forward to that.
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:33.280
So I'm looking forward to being able to uh be safer because there's more awareness.
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:51.039
Um I'm looking forward to people feeling like they can participate and they don't have to be an advocate or um right now I think the circle of advocacy is pretty narrow.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:40:05.440
But I think it's growing all the time, and I think there's pressure, and I think there are I know there there are um legal uh or no legislative challenges out there.
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:19.840
There's there are bills being worked on, whether they have to do with health care, with um access to technology um or uh access to education um and literacy.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:28.559
I think all of these are important and I can't wait till they move forward to the next step.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.559
Peter, thank you.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.880
Thank you so much for sharing your insight and stories with us today.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.719
Uh it's been a real pleasure.
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:42.320
Thank you so much for having me on, asking me to do this.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.000
I'm thrilled and honored.
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.880
Thank you all for joining us when we explore accessibility and disability.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:55.280
If you enjoyed this podcast, check out more episodes and show notes and accessible communities.
00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:10.240
Welcome to Accessibility and Practice Accessible Community, where we talk with people shaping a more accessible world.
00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:19.440
I'm Adam 55, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by Peter Slate, a leading voice in disability and accessibility.
00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:21.679
Thanks so much for being here, Peter.
00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:22.960
Thank you, Adam.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.760
I'm so happy to be here and to be part of this.
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I'm really excited for it.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:29.920
Yeah, so let's dive in.
00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:38.399
Uh first off, can you tell us a bit about your background and what drew you into the field of disability and accessibility?
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Well, uh sure.
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I'm a blind man.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:46.320
Um I've gone slowly blind over the course of my life.
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I'm 71.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:01:02.399
Uh I have both retinitis pigmentosa, which destroys your night vision and also your peripheral vision, and I have macular degeneration, which I got in my 40s, which destroys your central vision.
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:12.640
So I now see thousands, hundreds of thousands, billions of lights flashing in front of my eyes all the time.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.840
And um, I do have some light perception.
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I got into accessibility as a profession only about um not even 15 years ago.
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I worked as a journalist for most of my career and wrote not only occasionally did I write about accessibility and disability, um, but I wrote more mostly about architecture uh and urban design issues and commercial real estate and finance, all relating to the built environment.
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Um and so I got to occasionally explore accessible design, universal design, whatever you want to call it.
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Um but then in 2012, I just an opportunity arose for me to dive fully into this world.
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:14.960
Whereas before I'd always said uh I didn't want to be a professional blind person, that is, make my living as a person who is blind because I'm blind.
00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:23.520
Um I completely reversed course and said, you know, I'm happy to uh be part of that.
00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:29.439
And I'm gonna uh hear a siren in the back because I'm in New York City.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.360
Well, that's that's really interesting to hear.
00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:37.520
So I mean, not the siren, the uh story.
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:46.960
Um okay, so it sounds like you um you kind of you had that reversible, of course.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:58.240
Um so would you say that was the particular moment that uh that kind of shaped your journey and that uh yes, yeah.
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I I mean I basically um you know I had as a journalist and and I founded and ran a magazine and a website and we won editorial awards, etc.
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:19.280
And I traveled all across the US and uh globally, tracking down stories, writing down stories, finding writers' interesting things, et cetera.
00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:36.560
Um, and I was always, you know, as a blind person, really upset and annoyed at um the way I was treated by people in customer service, whether it was at an airport, in a taxi, at a hotel, a restaurant, a store.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:46.960
And I I thought, why isn't there a program to train these folks how to interact with people with disabilities?
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And then one day I was trying to go into a store where I'd been before, a big store, like a grocery store, and I had my guide dog, and uh and on previous visits uh they'd assign me to a human to guide us through the store so I could get what I needed.
00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:18.639
Well, on this occasion, uh they said, I'm sorry, we've we spoke to our lawyers, or our our lawyers spoke to us and said, You are a liability and we can't let you in.
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:20.079
Oh my god.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.199
Yeah.
00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:23.120
And uh I'll name names.
00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:27.040
The store was Italy, um the huge, wonderful.
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I know Italy.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:29.600
Wow.
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And I just I just you know flipped out.
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Was very unpleasant.
00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:47.199
And um made an appointment to go visit their um head of HR the next day.
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.199
Or maybe it was, yeah, I think it was HR, head of training, whatever.
00:04:51.680 --> 00:05:02.480
And I went to their offices and I spoke to them and I said, you know, I've long wanted to develop a program to train people in customer service about service to people with disabilities.
00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:10.560
And because I definitely didn't want this to be just about blind people, uh, but to run the gamut.
00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:17.680
And um they were interested, but not really, and I knew I wouldn't get any money.
00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:27.120
So I went off and sat about set about designing a program that I could use.
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:34.639
I'm not an educator, I'm not a trainer, but I am blind and I have experience, I write, I think.
00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:40.879
So I created a program that I thought would work in the settings I envisioned it in.
00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:50.720
And I took that to the owner of a uh CEO of a hotel company I'd known for years, and and said, This is what I'd like to do.
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What do you think?
00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:54.160
And he said, Send me a proposal.
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And so I got off to a good start.
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That's great a long time ago.
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:10.399
Okay, so it sounds like you uh you have a pretty pretty impressive background in disability and accessibility.
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:23.920
Um so based on that experience, you know, are there any particular myths or misconceptions about disability and accessibility that you find yourself always correcting?
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:29.439
Um I think there are there are many.
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You know, I I break the world into, I break the the world of accessibility into um three elements, three foundations, however you want to call them.
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Um, and that is how I approach what I do.
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You know, we all are familiar with the physical accessibility, um, how to design places, um, the built environment to be fully accessible, and that is the biggest change we've seen because that of course started in 1990.
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:14.160
And um, you know, people are familiar with that, whether they really want to deal with it or not, but um it's out there, it's mostly well understood.
00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:30.560
Um, then there's digital accessibility, meaning websites, um apps, uh anything media related, um, videos, movies, uh you name it.
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:54.000
What how do you make this digital material accessible so that uh someone who is print disabled, um which can be anyone who is blind, or someone who is dyslexic or ADHD, or uh you name it, has has a condition that makes it difficult for them to read.
00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:03.759
Uh has uh mobility uh a digital dexterity issue with um manipulating a mouse or whatever on a computer.
00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:26.560
So digital accessibility is a real thing, and even though it is still even though it's been talked about for decades now, it is still really misunderstood um by people in the web design and and uh development world.
00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:44.080
Um it is uh because it's a complicated thing, um, but there are ways to design a website or whatever you design so that it is fully accessible.
00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:58.879
And you know, just like it's it can be expensive to take a building that was built before 1990 and retrofit it to be accessible, um it's so much easier to do it from the start.
00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.039
And the same is true with web design.
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:05.919
So that's digital accessibility, and that's a big work in progress.
00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.840
But I call what I do social accessibility.
00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:15.039
Uh someone said it was cultural accessibility, I'll go with that too.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:40.559
But because I'm not an architect and I'm not a coder or developer, but I am very much in the world, and I believe the biggest barrier to accessibility, to full integration of people with disabilities into society is social, more than physical, more than digital, because it precedes everything.
00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:59.679
If we understand disability as just another way of living, rather than all these other things, like meaning you're you're broken or you're ill or you're pitiable or you know, low expectations you can't achieve.
00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:27.840
Um if we have a society that accepts disability as a natural and normal way to be that can be improved upon, you can that needs accommodation, all that can be met, but then we can start to see design, the world of design, whether it's digital or physical, make accommodations from the start rather than have to rethink everything later.
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.320
Yeah, being proactive rather than reactive.
00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:34.240
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:35.840
Thank you.
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:55.519
Uh I want to go back to your question, which led into my long disquisition, but one of the most difficult thing things that happens, I think, for any person with any disability, any um certainly with apparent disabilities, um, is physical touch from other people.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:11:01.679
Other people always want to help me, and so they will grab me without thinking, they'll push me and pull me.
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:09.600
And of course, if if I can say use your words, you know, tell me that the chair is behind me, don't push me into it, you know.
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:20.159
But and this can be on a scale that's anywhere from annoying and humiliating to very dangerous.
00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.840
Um, so it's something to be aware of.
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:36.639
Yet I do know that um people for people who um use ASL, who uh speak ASL, uh, and for deaf people in general, touch is is an important thing.
00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:48.720
Um, so it's not the same for everybody, but I know for for me, for my friends who are wheelchair users, they often find that someone interferes with them physically.
00:11:49.600 --> 00:12:11.840
So yeah, I'd say that's that's a a very um fulsome uh illustration of or uh of what is in the way, what gets between someone with a disability and participating in society.
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:17.679
Yeah, so I just want to uh I want to follow up on one thing you said.
00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:23.919
So it's what you were saying, like accessibility isn't one size fits all, right?
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:38.159
So so how do you see how do you see things like race, gender, or economic status or other kind of intersecting um identities interacting with the stability?
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:56.320
Well, this is a wonderful question because you know, in our um theoretically broke woke environments where nobody we we don't want to think about diversity and gosh, it's terrifying to to think about diversity.
00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:15.919
Um of course, you know, I I used to say that accessibility and disability were the poor stepchildren of the DEI movement, because the DEI movement grew out of race and gender um discrimination.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:24.960
Uh and then just grew from there and um accessibility became something of an afterthought.
00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:26.240
And did it belong there?
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:27.919
Did it not belong there?
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:40.720
But the truth is accessibility, disability itself is the most intersectional of all of these things that make up a diverse world.
00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:53.440
Um it's it doesn't care for age, it doesn't care for race, for gender, for sexual orientation, for um uh religion, right?
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:54.559
You know, yeah.
00:13:54.960 --> 00:14:00.639
It it just doesn't it doesn't disability doesn't discriminate.
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:05.360
And that's that's what I've always kind of said and heard, yeah.
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:10.720
And so does this mean that it is uh not about diversity?
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:26.080
No, it doesn't because diversity uh because we haven't as a flip as a society really come to the point where we accept people with disabilities fully into the workplace, into the social environment.
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:33.600
Um you know, the stats on unemployment for people with disabilities are just um are huge.
00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:41.120
And I'm I want to say something about 30% of people with disabilities have some kind of employment.
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.399
Um I believe it's actually less.
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:45.919
I yeah.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.639
I don't know the latest statistics, but uh so don't hold me to that.
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.600
But but I think that's in the ballpark.
00:14:53.759 --> 00:15:24.320
You know, so of course we we know that when people with different points of view and different life histories, different um cultures and races and um all kinds of differences get together, they are going to produce more interesting um products, more interesting uh services, more interesting approaches to business um and to any other organization.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:33.840
They're going to enhance an organization rather than um uh distract from it or or or um subtract from it.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:41.039
And there's so much fear about that from the normative status quo.
00:15:42.240 --> 00:16:06.720
And uh, you know, we're living with that fear extremely um out there right now, uh doing its best to shout, go away people with disabilities, or black people, or people of anything that's not white, cisgender male, please go away.
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.440
To me, it's just that's just the last gasp.
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.720
Um it may be a very long and painful last gasp.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:20.000
This is not to dismiss it, but in the end, I think that will that will not be the way society is.
00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:21.840
Um yeah.
00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:27.039
So let's uh let's zoom in a little bit.
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:27.440
Okay.
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:34.320
So thinking about kind of policy and best practices.
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:46.480
What are some really tangible things that you wish every organization would do to build a more inclusive environment and more accessible environments?
00:16:48.639 --> 00:17:09.759
I would ask them to look at their make sure their website is fully accessible, make sure their space is fully accessible, help make sure that their employees with disabilities feel safe disclosing.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:27.200
You know, disclosing is always difficult because if you don't disclose that you have a disability but you need an accommodation, um, but you try and hide it or pass with a, you know, whatever you want to call it, um, you're gonna your performance will suffer.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:45.680
On the other hand, there's a good reason that people don't disclose, which is they fear discrimination, ignorance, you know, most most discrimination stems from ignorance, from fear, from you know, uh fear of being, oh, I don't want to be like that.
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:54.000
Oh, and when people say, Oh, it's must be horrible to be blind, or they ask, which is worse to be blind or deaf, or you know, these questions.
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:56.079
Yeah.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:09.920
Um, but I think they have to look within, and then they can look without and you can create that like I see uh just a spreading ripple.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:36.960
You know, if you start with your yourselves and your own company, and you look at the bottom and the top, and you and you engage in honest conversation, uh, you know, this I don't want to be too Pollyanish, but you have to look at your employees, then look at your vendors and look at your customers, and how can you make make things inclusive?
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.359
And what is inclusion about?
00:18:39.680 --> 00:19:04.319
You know, I have my own issue with the word inclusion because getting back to my earlier points about living we're all living normally, um if someone wants to include me, what right do they have uh to include me?
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:05.519
I'm here already.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:16.799
I'm included, so when why are you deciding to include me when you can certainly decide to exclude, but I can still be included if if I insist on it.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:30.000
And inclusion is to me, it's it's just a way of reaffirming the um the privilege, reaffirming privilege.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.920
Not all barriers are created equal.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:51.599
This is true, and you you raise a really good point, and you know, um I guess the question comes down to how do you want that credit to be allocated, to be given, to be shown?
00:19:52.160 --> 00:20:00.400
Um and how do you want not to um exploit it?
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:05.920
Um or if you feel like you can exploit it, when is it okay to exploit it?
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.720
When is it not okay to exploit it?
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:13.680
Do I use my privilege to pre-board a plane because I have a guide dog?
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:14.960
Yes, I do.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.279
Um do I absolutely have to?
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:18.240
No, I don't.
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.480
But I appreciate the opportunity.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:22.720
That's a good example.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:23.599
Yeah.
00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:57.279
Okay, so um so speaking of kind of the the interpersonal aspect of uh and like criminate and kind of how how we use how we um kind of interact with our disabilities, what advi and and people around us, what advice do you have for people with disabilities or their advocates as they navigate a world that often doesn't understand what they're going through?
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.839
Wow, this is a great question.
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:24.640
And I will say what one of my professors, my I'll say it, my painting professor said in um when I was taking classes to earn a Bachelor of Fine Arts in painting, when I had much more vision, I was still already legally blind, but I love painting.
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:30.240
And she said to the class, she said, Do as I say, not as I do.
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:52.720
And I say that because I have a very hard time um when someone uh acts out in a way that is upsetting because I have a disability um that somehow makes me feel diminished, um humiliated, whatever.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.759
I try to control my rage.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:13.440
Um but So in other words, my advice is um just let it ride over you and try to explain where you are, or just say, Yeah, well, you're wrong.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:31.039
Do do something that just shows that you are in control of yourself in the situation rather than flipping out and screaming at them because they are, you know, ignorant, foolish, bigoted people, yes.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:36.799
Um, which is not to say you have to be all you know like the nicey nicy person.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:44.400
You can be, you know, nasty, but do it without you know uh screaming.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.799
But I, you know, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna digress.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:56.079
I just recently heard a a discussion uh about you know, that there are people who are urging, you know, we must be civils.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.279
They're urging civility, which is what I just did.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:16.400
But then someone said, well, civility is the tool of the privileged to control the underprivileged, the those the a tool for the the those who have it have whatever to control people who don't but want, you know.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.680
So if I can say, well, you have to be civil, don't get all angry.
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:27.920
So I just told everyone to be civil, and I'm not gonna say forget it, don't be civil, just be smart, I guess I'll say.
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:29.440
Yeah.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:30.960
Be attuned to the situation.
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:32.480
Pick your battles.
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.519
I think picking your battles is also part of that.
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:37.599
That's kind of a subset of it.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:39.039
Okay.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:58.559
Um, so speaking of kind of uh being smart and uh trying to figure out how to pick your battles, for listeners who want to make a difference, what's one thing they could do to start supporting disability rights and better access?
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:10.480
Well, I'd say whether you have a disability or or you want to be an ally, think about where your strength is.
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:12.799
What what do you love to do?
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:15.359
How do you love to relate to people?
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:51.839
Um where do you think you can add to the discussion, whether it's around education, whether it's around web disability, web, you know, digital accessibility, whether it's around um physical access to some to spaces and design, um, or whether it's about social interaction, about um helping people to learn more about disability and more about accessibility.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:53.359
Find what is your strength?
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:05.759
Where do you where where do you think you can have the most impact with the least amount of um just excess energy?
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.400
So you can put your energy to work fruitfully.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.480
Um, that's what I'd say.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:24.799
Think about and think and you can do that, you can also think about um who do you know in your family or your friends and colleagues?
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:41.680
What experience do you have of disability that you can um from someone else that you can say, oh, I you know, I learned something from listening to my uncle talk about his deafness or uh something like that.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:51.279
What can you bring to the table that brings your perspective but also acknowledges theirs and then built on it?
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.400
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:25:54.720 --> 00:26:36.640
I mean, even I'm sorry, if if you're an attorney or um a uh an activist or whatever, and you want to get involved in policy, that's you know, and you feel like you have not only an understanding of the law or want to get an understanding of the law, but you also have uh the gift of persuasion, and you feel like you can really help advocate for whatever, whether it's um accessible transportation, um accessible spaces, accessible uh uh braille literacy.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:46.079
Um where do you see yourself bring bringing the biggest and best self?
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:49.839
Yeah, well that's a good one.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:54.640
Um okay, so switching gears a little bit.
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:58.640
Uh let's talk about tech for a minute.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:26:59.359
Okay.
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:06.480
What innovations are you genuinely excited about in terms of improving accessibility?
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:11.920
And are there underrated low-tech solutions you think deserve more attention?
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.880
Yeah, great question.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:20.960
Um I'm well, I love screen readers.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:34.720
You know, I just love them because they are my key to the world, you know, as a writer, as a reader, um, God, with but without them, you know.
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:44.880
And since I didn't learn Braille until I was 60 and my braille reading is very slow, that's just wonderful to have those that availability.
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:50.319
I'm so what I'm excited about is there are a few things.
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:59.119
Um I'm actually excited to watch how uh things like meta glasses develop.
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.279
Um I know people who love them.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:04.400
I tried them once.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.559
I'm not sure yet, but maybe at some point, you know, they'll be what I want.
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:23.519
Um I love that people are uh trying hard to develop new things, new new ways of for blind people to be oriented in their world.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.359
Um whether you're indoors or outdoors.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:34.319
Uh I'm gonna make here's a caution, uh, and I say this from experience, lived experience.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:39.359
I know some allies who are very involved in tech for blind people.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:46.880
And they have, of course, the best of intentions.
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:53.440
They really want to make a difference, but they don't hire or listen to blind people.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:04.640
So you can't you can't have uh you can't have a disability and accessibility podcast without saying nothing about us without us, right?
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:05.440
Yes.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:16.000
Um, so you know, and I think I get it that they they want really to help, but um don't be afraid also.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.519
So I'm I'm interested in I I will want to watch that.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:36.240
I want to see when wheelchairs become um ergonomic and uh um adaptable to individual bodies.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:40.480
And you know, when when will that happen?
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:41.519
Why is that so hard?
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.200
What is what is stopping that from happening happening?
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:53.119
Whether it's uh you know, I don't know because it's not my world, but uh there are companies that control the manufacture of wheelchairs.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.240
When will airlines in learn not to break or lose wheelchairs?
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:06.720
When you know, but technology is great, and it's making life better, improving the world for us.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:17.920
I, you know, but personally I'm more excited about people learning about disability.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:19.200
Yeah.
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:21.359
Well that makes complete sense.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:26.480
Um so okay, here's another question.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:28.000
I'm ready.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:37.119
Do you have a defa a f you know, you you've been working with uh kind of companies, institutions uh for a while.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:45.119
Do you have a favorite example of a company or institution that's getting it right or at least making real progress?
00:30:45.920 --> 00:31:01.839
I think, you know, it's my whether if my experience is good, um when I go someplace, you know, someone once asked me, uh, what's the most accessible experience you've ever had in New York City?
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:08.480
And I said, I don't know what that is because if it was super accessible, I just did it.
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.640
You know, um yeah, yeah.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.400
It just happened, you know.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:19.440
Um I have had some, I think I've had some great experiences at museums.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:50.400
Uh the Guggenheim Museum takes uh has done a great job of and the Whitney and MoMA have have done really worked hard to bring uh blind and low vision people, people uh with autism um or developmental disabilities into the museum world to um to show them things on uh in a ways that they can understand.
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:56.240
And I I think that's so important and so impressive.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:03.599
Um that's uh you know, and I I think museums are actually ahead of the curve.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:12.559
You know, cities, there are some cities that try hard, um, but cities are incredibly complicated organisms, you know.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:35.839
Um they can pledge to try and be accessible, but you know, it's it's uh it's a big, it's a big ask, but I think hiring people to deal with it, paying real money, um not just again, not just beyond lip service, beyond the accessibility statement on your website.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:55.759
What can you do to enrich the experience of accessibility in your city, in your home, in your place of business, whatever, wherever you go, what can you do to be aware that it's not something to fear, but something to embrace?
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:59.039
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.200
So, how about airlines?
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.400
Have some been more accessible than others?
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.200
I'm sorry, some which airlines?
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:08.559
Airlines.
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.480
Um, no.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:24.640
I will say I know that Delta has a robust program that's like an advisory group, disability advisory group.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:34:10.480
And the airlines in general have there's an airline advisory group, and there, you know, there's um lots of there's an organization called Open Doors uh organization ODO, which is um really focuses on training training airlines or really focuses more on airports, but for all the work they do, what happens is it gets down to the individual um flight attendant or gate attendant who no matter how many times they've been told, don't speak to a guide dog, don't pet it or feed it without asking the handler.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:17.280
They may have been told this, but um they don't follow that.
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:27.039
Every airline I've ever flown flown on has someone has you know broken that protocol and um someone professionally.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:28.400
Uh yeah.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:33.360
So, you know, I think I think there's so much work to be done with airlines.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:41.920
Um Amtrak is trying, but I've had great and poor experiences with Amtrak.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:51.440
I think the rideshare companies have a lot to lot to um a lot to apologize for.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:35:01.599
They um absolutely you know, and everyone knows this, and you know, it goes to the heart of what I do as a trainer and educator.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:08.000
Is why is it so hard to offer this service to people?
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:09.679
And sure, it would help me.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:16.159
I would you know make a lot more money if if if um such programs were much more widespread.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:30.880
But the point is it's painless and it's helpful, and uh the costs are minimal compared to with the cost of you know litigation or whatever.
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:43.440
And you know, remember when uh was it I think it was Domino's or I think Domino's, you know, uh there's a big lawsuit, you know, it was a web accessibility lawsuit lawsuit.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:52.639
Yeah, Domino's spent a couple million dollars trying to defend themselves when the fix would have been$38,000 at the time, you know.
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:59.679
Um and you have to again, and that's where money comes into this equation.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:32.639
If you have spent your if your business, and you as a as a leader of the business, um, have spent your your career um creating budgets and designing budgets and and pricing and all that, and of course you haven't thought about disability, whether it's your your employees or your customers, and then somebody asks you to think about it, there's then it suddenly it will appear expensive.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.199
Yeah.
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:37.760
Um and it will really cost that's money I I don't have.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:51.119
Um, but if you think about it from the start and you realize, okay, if I don't include these people, I'm cutting off a huge portion of the population that has real spending power.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:51.599
Yeah.
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:56.079
That is eager and excited to go out and be part of the world.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:57.840
But how many people with disabilities?
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:10.320
And I know them, they don't go outside because they are afraid uh physically for their safety, or they are afraid that someone will just be an asshole.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:17.760
Just like with design, if you if you start designing buildings with doors that everyone can use, everyone will use it.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:27.679
If you create buildings that have you know five stairs up and a heavy door handle with no push, then you've excluded you know millions of people from your building.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:28.960
Yeah.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:29.920
You know?
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:31.280
Okay, Peter.
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:32.480
Last question.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:33.519
Yes, sir.
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.000
What's coming up on the horizon?
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:43.280
Any new laws, technologies, or cultural moments in accessibility that you're especially watching?
00:37:45.599 --> 00:38:00.159
I'd love to see in just a growing awareness of um audio description in um and broadcast media, uh, broadcast streaming, whatever you want to call it.
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:11.920
Um I think there are some amazing um technological developments out there um that people are working hard to do.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:33.519
I'm I'm excited about the rise of the growth in um venture capital that put into helping create new things, new ways for people with disabilities to participate in the world.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:41.599
And you know, this wasn't a thing, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:39:01.599
I think now there are actual uh organizations, um fund managers raising capital to to invest in whether it's in accessible real estate or accessible uh vehicles.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.280
I mean, I for one amount looking forward to the growth of the autonomous vehicle.
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.920
I've ridden in one, I had a great experience.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:16.320
Um and uh you know I I'm looking forward to that.
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:33.280
So I'm looking forward to being able to uh be safer because there's more awareness.
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:51.039
Um I'm looking forward to people feeling like they can participate and they don't have to be an advocate or um right now I think the circle of advocacy is pretty narrow.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:40:05.440
But I think it's growing all the time, and I think there's pressure, and I think there are I know there there are um legal uh or no legislative challenges out there.
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:19.840
There's there are bills being worked on, whether they have to do with health care, with um access to technology um or uh access to education um and literacy.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:28.559
I think all of these are important and I can't wait till they move forward to the next step.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.559
Peter, thank you.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.880
Thank you so much for sharing your insight and stories with us today.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.719
Uh it's been a real pleasure.
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:42.320
Thank you so much for having me on, asking me to do this.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.000
I'm thrilled and honored.
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.880
Thank you all for joining us when we explore accessibility and disability.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:55.280
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