A177 Do Men Struggle with Emotional Intimacy?

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Hello and welcome back to absurdity,
where we discuss all things absurd in religion,

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culture and society. My name is
Ryan Becker and I am joined by

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my not so Nice Guy Cohost,
Henry Johnson, and there is a very

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specific reason I said that that way, Henry, I I I figured you're

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saying that because of the comment we
just made off air before we started about

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our topic for today. Yes,
that is absolutely correct. So several months

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ago I was on Reddit, as
I as I do on a daily basis,

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and I came across, he lives
there, this comment in the the

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subred it called Nice guys. Now, Nice guys, if you've never heard

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this term, of like what a
Nice Guy is essentially nice. A nice

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guy is a self proclaimed nice guy. That that is. So it's someone

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who would call themselves a nice guy, usually someone who is who hides their

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mistreatment of specifically of women, behind
a veil of of being kind. So

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they'll first be kind and then when
they go to make an advance on a

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woman and they're rejected for any number
of reasons, the suddenly their true form

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comes out and then they complain about
being friend zoned or and how all women

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are terrible and suddenly, like it's
just like a flip or a switch is

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flipped in in their mind, they're
not so nice. Correct. So this

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subreadd it is, which means I'm
now not sure how to take that statement

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at the beginning. Your nurst,
you're right, not taking I said,

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I am yeah, but is that
because you rejected my advances and I started

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acting weird because I'm married? Or
like, what? What? What?

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I don't get now. I always
tried to compliment me for not being and

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one of those nice guys, but
now all of a sudden it's like,

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but yeah, then they show their
true colors and they're not nice because they

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got rejected. So tell me,
Ryan, what at Might Henry, you

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are the epitome of what every man
should be. So you've never been rejected.

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So there was no opportunity for you
to be a Nice Guy, Henry.

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That's the whole I can tell you
didn't know. I can tell you

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didn't know. Manhis, I can
tell you didn't either. So the my

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true, this subreddit is one that
really does it. Most of the the

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post feature men, but but there
are women who do this too, and

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so the subret it just kind of
pokes fun at this idea and some of

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the cringier some of the cringier things
that are said get featured here. And

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about four months ago there was a
post that was actually just a screen shot,

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that was just a screen shot about
men complaining about being friend zoned,

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and I'm going to I'm going to
send so this comments gonna be really obvious

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what word I'm censoring here because I'm
going to change it out. But the

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original posts as men always complain about
being friend zoned, but do you know

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how much it hurts to always be
sex zoned as a woman, as if

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our friendship only had value to you
because of possible sex? And in the

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comments of this thread or of this
post, there was a comment that essentially

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someone was breaking down this idea of
the friend zone. That and why men

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are using, or may use,
friendship as a vehicle to intimacy with a

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woman primarily. And this this is
a comment that we're not taking this as

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rule of law or like a like
a like a hardline authority, but I

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think what what this comment or expresses
actually touches on a lot of great things

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and I think is a launching point
for really good conversation on this, on

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this idea. He wraps it up
in in the context of emotional intimacy and

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the conditioning of culture toward or the
conditioning of men from culture that that basically

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makes or drives men to only express
a moment or only find emotional intimacy within

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the context of a relationship with a
woman. And I think this was something

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that Henry, when I sent this
to you, when I finally remembered to

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send it to you, this was
something that you pretty quickly resonated with.

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Sometimes I send you articles or something
and your and then I hear back like

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a day later and you're like yeah, maybe, but this one it seemed

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like you you had a pretty quick
and and kind of all in response on

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this. So will link to as
a side note, I saw him mentioned

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I kind live vicariously through Ryan in
the reddit space. I don't usually go

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to Reddit by myself, but since
nine out of ten things you send me

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is from Reddit, that's how I'm
in the know of what's going on.

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Nine out of ten things you send
me I already saw on Reddit. So

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it's pretty much exactly well and I
should, I guess I should share the

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thrust of this from the common itself
and I'll just read the first little bit

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of it. Men Don't typically have
the emotional the kind of emotional intimacy that

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women have with their friends. Men
Form Bonds, men have the kinds of

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friendships where they'd give you the shirt
off their back if you needed it.

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But they aren't taught to be open, in supportive of feelings with their friends,

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the people men are allowed to be
vulnerable and open with our women they

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have a romantic relationship with. That's
who you open up to, that's who

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your emotional support is. So what
happens is when a man like this finds

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a close friend who's a woman,
they spend time together, they share feelings

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with each other at they talk about
family, hopes and dreams and in their

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head that's what a girlfriend is.
The sex and society is so badly let

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down men in what they expect from
friendship that some of them are looking at

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their friends and thinking, why is
she doing all the things a girlfriend does,

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except for the romantic part? We're
obviously more than friends, and this

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sad perspective of the world turns into
a frustration and resentment that she doesn't get

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it. She must be toying with
him because she's being a girlfriend while insisting

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she doesn't like him that way.
And I thought this was particularly insightful and

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I could see a little bit of
even myself in this. The just looking

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back on my life, in the
Times that I've been emotionally intimate with,

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with anyone, it's always been a
female and even then I've it's been something

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I've struggled with and Russell with to
this day, is actually really being emotionally

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vulnerable, and I think part that's
part conditioning, part betrayal of other times

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where I have trusted, and so
those are things that, like I have

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to work through in order to build
two deeper levels of emotional intimacy. But

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I'm curious, you know, Henry, when you read when you looked at

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this, come at yourself, what
was going through your mind and how did

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you first start processing this idea?
Well, yeah, obviously, when I

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when I first read it, like
you, I was I was very fascinated

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by the concept because I think they
were getting to more of a subconscious reasoning,

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not in every case, but I
was definitely starting to look back on

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my own life, especially in my
high school years, and I started realizing,

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oh my goodness, there's a lot
of this that I did over and

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over and over again and didn't know
why. I remember I used to have

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a lot more female friends than male
and and that could be for any number

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of reasons, but I tend to
be more expressive and and more emotional just

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as a personality, and I'd never
really thought then why. You know,

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my joke used to be, AH, well, you know, women are

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more emotional, so maybe I hung
around them more and I was always closer

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to my mom. But then this
comment got me really thinking that almost ever,

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almost without fail, every woman,
at least in high school, that

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I was friends with for some period
of time or always hang out with,

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I had one of these moments where
I tried to take it to a romantic

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level and it just failed for any
number of reasons, and I remember being

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frustrated about that and I don't think
prior to this comment I'd ever given it

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deep enough thought to wonder why.
Yeah, right, and I knew enough,

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at least even then, like okay, don't blame them, that they're

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not interested. But I do remember
there would be a frustration where almost to

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a tea, very shortly after I
do that, they'd start dating somebody else.

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So that brought up all sorts of
things in my mind. But I

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started to think. I started thinking
about this and I was like, well,

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why? I felt closer to them
than the guy that they would end

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up dating. And I'm like why? And I never can understand. I

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started thinking about this independent of why
did they and why did they not?

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Because they have choices, obviously,
and I was a Dweeb in high school

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anyway. But not that weeps aren't
attractive, but just say, and I

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really start thinking about it's true.
We tend to have an ability, and

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definitely, at least in my life, where women were the safe spot,

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to be emotionally vulnerable as a guy, which might have been why I was

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even closer to my mom. My
Dad, and this is nothing against him

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at all, but maybe some people
could relate. My Dad, was not

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very emotionally communicative. Same Sunder and
and his yes, shocker, and his

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family wasn't either. So if you'd
known my grandparents and my grandfather, like

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my grandfather, early ever even said
I love you to my grandmother. Now,

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that's not that he treated her like
garbage or that our only job was

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to be in the kitchen cooking or
something, and I think in his own

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ways he tried to express it.
But they were also a generation that you

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just they were not very emotionally communicative, definitely to other guys M and maybe

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that is part of it too,
that we help feeded. I don't want

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to just blame right women for this, but it's true. You just keep

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building to a point where the people
you are emotional with, or women,

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whether that's your mom or your sister's
or are whatever, and it does.

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I was thinking. I was like, there's a lot of validity to this

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statement. I don't know if it's
one hundred percent there, but I think

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that's why we want to talk about
I got excited. I said, Oh,

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this is onto something, and then
it really was onto something, and

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that it started making me think from
a religious perspective, from a church,

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from from a societal perspective, on
so many areas that, whether in the

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male female dating scene, this is
exactly correct. We've taken a lot of

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these observation subconsciously and definitely use it
in other areas. For example, why

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is it the cliche that gay men
are always the most emotional, hmm,

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right, or that when guys try
and get more vulnerable or emotionally each other,

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we start going to do don't be
gay Orre besides the fact that it's

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insulting to the LGBTQ plus community that
we kind of use these as a negative

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sense. All of these thoughts came
to my mind and I was like,

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oh, that's so true. That
emotion for us automatically spells intimacy and it's

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definitely not something that I would immediately
look to in another guy and the relationships

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where I am more emotionally invested,
like I mean, you know, transparency.

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Even, like with you a lot
of people, we've even felt the

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need in public, when we've been, quote, more emotional with one another,

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to almost play up acting like we're
gay. Maybe that's again admitting in

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public that we're being kind of insulting
and we need to grow and how insensitive

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that is to lgbdq plus and individuals
that really do have that attraction and they're

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stigmatized for it. And that's the
purview of a straight white male that has

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the freedom to do that. So
that could be part of our conversation to

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but it's true that we're awkwarded out
by emotion displayed between men. Yeah,

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even in a plutonic way and saw
I was like, Oh yeah, this

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comments on to something, and I've
been just really invested in that. Yeah,

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I mean I think of times I
would agree and cosine everything you said.

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I think a lot of those you
and I both went to are grew

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up going to school in a time
where using gay or or other other I'm

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going to I'm not going to use
those words for outside of that one for

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the sake of being appropriate on the
show, but I think we grew up

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in a time we're using those words
in a derogatory way was a normalized thing

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in like even elementary, middle school, high school, and so a lot

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of that hardwiring has to be undone. And while it was easier to stop

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the vocabulary in that sense, some
of those things are more internalized. And

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Yeah, I think it's so easy
for me to say to my wife,

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Hey, I love you, but
even in the Times where I've said it

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to you, Henry, and you
and I are really, really close,

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I still feel this tinge of like
discomfort and awkwardness, and it has nothing

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to do with you. It just
there's something weird about it to me,

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and I grew up. I don't
I cannot remember a time where my dad

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ever said the words I love you. That doesn't mean he didn't and I

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can very clearly see the ways in
which he did. He just also wasn't

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emotionally communicative, at least for those
emotions, and I think that's one key

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to this. Is One key to
dealing with this, in my opinion,

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is actually reframing what emotional means,
because I think what the problem with emotional

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is we always we always connect that
directly to crying, sadness or some form

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of vulnerability, whereas emotional can be
excitement, anger, joy, happiness.

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I mean, it can be calmness, it can be as well as grief,

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sadness and and you know, crying
gets attached to it as well as

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an as an expression of an emotion. But every person is emotional. We

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all have some we are all expressive. It's just what emotions do we more

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naturally align with, and I think
part of that is, yeah, we're

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we're socially conditioned or environmentally conditioned to
what kind of what kind of emotions are

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safe to demonstrate in certain settings,
and so when we when we start venturing

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towards the unsafe ones, it's harder
and even the guys who are trained or

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taught, not trained but taught,
that it's okay to be emotionally vulnerable if

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they are around other guys. It's
almost like, if you're going to if

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you're going to teach a guy to
be emotionally vulnerable and emotionally intimate outside of

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just the social norms, you also
have to train them or how to lead

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other men in that process to otherwise
it's going to happen is my dad tells

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me one thing, but then I
go around all my friends and they start

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telling me all the other and I
don't have the tools necessary to resist that

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kind of pressure, and so then
I slowly start to potentially abandon abandon the

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ideas that my dad may have raised
me with if I come from that kind

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of environment. And so it's it
can be very hard to balance the two,

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but we end up with what is
a very toxic masculinity and when women

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are typically more able to be emotionally
vulnerable with each other and with men in

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general, just because that isn't the
same doesn't come with the same kind of

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stigma culturally, then for when a
guy has experiences that emotional intimacy with with

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a friend who's a woman, of
course it's going to seem like a huge

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thing. It's almost therapeutic. It
is therapeutic for all the wrong reasons,

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but it is. And then,
just like projection, we over attach an

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importance to the individual, allowing that
express whereas for a woman that is more

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closer to the norm as far as
that level of intimacy or expression of of

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their own. So we misread it
and and project onto them. I would

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I and I love the the phrase
that that this the commentaries. He says

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I made my I made my first
girlfriend into an emotional dumping ground. She's

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supposed to fix you, supposed to
take all those personal issues you have and

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somehow be the magic tonic for it
all, which, funnily enough, only

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a choose, making both of you
miserable. And that's absolutely correct. I

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I think that that is spot on. That because we're lacking that, that

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whole part of we're lacking in development
of that whole part of ourselves. The

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second that we have an environment where
we can kind of let loose and it

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feels safe to do so, that's
when we that's when we start opening those

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doors and then we read way more
significance into it just as a result of

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our upbringing and backgrounds. Then they're
actually is to it. Yeah, and

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it. And that brings up a
whole lot, even with the church,

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because you know, you know,
I've been around the church environment working in

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it for so long. I almost
think Western Christianity is done the same with

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two different items. The first would
be marriage. That and many ways in

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the church we've made marriage along with
this same line kind of magnified it to

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be the only safe spot to have
any sort of emotional connectivity and intimacy with

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anybody. And that dumping ground comment
that the the poster made really resonated with

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me there, because I think so
many of our marriages are set up to

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fail because we come into them.
I know I did to my in my

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own marriage to a certain extent.
I showed up in it was like great,

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and then it became the dump truck
of repressed Yep, whatever I had

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carried for thirty some years and just
backed up and, you know, and

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dumped that on my wife and then
you wonder why that doesn't work out so

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great. So again this over idolization
even of marriage and sex. Not that

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don't get me wrong. Both you
and I are married, I think we

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would both say as hard as it
is, it's still worth it. There's

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no institution that can be more heaven
like or more hell like than marriage,

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for sure. But but that being
said, I think because the church has

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over emphasized it. And please don't
misread what I'm saying. If someone's like

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eyes about to say people not to
be married, I'm not saying it's.

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It's not an institution that, in
my personal belief system, God is set

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up for good reason. But I
do think we've over idolized it in that

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that is now become the only avenue
for certain things, and outside of the

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sexual range, I think more than
just sexual intimacy. We've made marriage the

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only intimacy capability. Yeah, right, we don't have strong friendships, we

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don't have strong communities, we don't
know. We've made churches unsafe even to

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be emotionally vulnerable in the least way
in those communities without significant punishment or drawback

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or pain and and so we've set
them up to be more toxicity fueled and

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and dumping grounds, like they said. And then the second area I'd I

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bring up, as I think this
is another struggle. The Church has had

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by ostracizing the LGG he, the
Lgbtq community within our churches. No matter

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what you think about it theologically,
and I don't mean this to come across

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maybe as seeming cliche either, but
right the that community tends to be viewed

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as more emotionally expressive and, whether
for good or for wrong, what is

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it that they could be teaching the
church about? You know, even same

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sex plutonic relationships? I'm not even
saying sexually like you know, because then

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there's the churches problem where they think, oh no, if I start hanging

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out with them in a men's group, they're they're gay, so therefore they're

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going to be romantically attracted to me. It's almost the same problem again in

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reverse, where we think if someone's
emotionally open to you, that now the

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sexual component has to be there.
But I've often gone what could they be

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doing to transform our religious communities and
learning how to have a, you know,

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open, emotional same sex relationships that
aren't necessarily sexual? Yeah, right,

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and so that's just another random thought
that comes into my mind. I've

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often wondered on both extremes this emotional
dumping ground thing and and it's just it's

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just a call that we don't know
how to have relationships period. Yeah,

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we live in a world where nobody
knows how to have healthy relationships and we're

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paying for it. Yeah, I
mean I would agree with all of that.

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I think many members of the LGBTQ
plus community just just by the nature

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of what their journey is, they've
done a lot more self reflection and discovery

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within the emotional realm and and figured
out a lot more of that and also,

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or have also learned, based on
the rejection that they've received from people

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like Christians in the church, that
it really doesn't matter if someone else thinks

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that this isn't the right way to
be. If this is the right way

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I feel to be, then I'm
going to be it, for better or

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worse. And Yeah, I would
not surprise me, going on what you

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said, regarding even just the the
misnomers that some people have about, you

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know, being around a gay person
will somehow make me gay because of whatever

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messed up ideas we have about what
what that, what being gay is and

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what it actually what causes it,
so to speak. And I can't help

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but wonder if this entire idea is
also one of the tiny steps that that

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or is it contributor to one of
the steps that lead someone to cheat on

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their spouse? Because, and what
I don't mean is I'm not excusing cheating

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in any way, shape or form, but right what I I think you're

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getting to the point. What happens
when you start having a friendship or relationships

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outside of your marriage where you become
emotionally volume. You have no idea how

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to have one of those outside of
a romantic relationship. It would be really

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easy to start confusing this emote,
this openness as wait a minute, that

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I only this only exists within the
context of Romance. So this has to

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you know, and it's a subconscious
thing, but it's just one of those

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tiny steps that that that someone may
take that eventually they turn around, they

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look back and realize that, oh, they they veered far off the path

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a long time ago and and now
they're they're full blown cheating on their significant

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other, their spouse. But for
men, it wouldn't surprise me if this

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is one of the things that they
go through in that process. I don't

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know, I haven't cheated, so
I can't say from personal experience, thankfully,

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on this one, but it is
a thought that I'm curious if.

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I'm not saying that suddenly this would
prevent everything, but it could. If

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we can prevent one of those small
steps, that'd be great either way and

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regardless it. Like I said,
this is not in any way okaying or

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excusing adultery in any in any form. This is simply me making an observation

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on one of the things that put
could potentially lead someone there. And I

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yeah, that they're symptoms of a
greater dysfunction. Yeah, absolutely, and

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I'm I mean, I guess,
I guess I'm curious. So I've touched

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on one thing that I think is
which is redefining what emotional means, what

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what being an emotional human being means, and redefining what what that looks like.

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But I'm curious and this thing is
so unculturally ingrained and even from the

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perspective of if we only know it
within the context of romance and the only

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so, the only times that guys
are emotionally intimate are with people, with

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their romantic partners, and if they've
had several and ships that have started and

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ended, then they only have failed
emotional intimate, emotionally intimate experiences from their

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perspective of I may have been hurt
by this person that I was emotionally intimate

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with. So it makes sense now
why a lot of them would then target

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any sort of emotional intimacy, from
our vulnerability from a male and say,

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you know you're you're a you know
you're a weak men or real men don't

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cry, or whatever, because they
it's a self protection of it's a self

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protection to justify their decision to not
be emotionally vulnerable themselves. It's an excuse

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to say that's a bad thing and
I shouldn't do it. And if I

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can come up with all the reasons
to justify you being a being a worse

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version of a male than me,
than I can be more comfortable in the

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fact that I'm not going to be
emotionally intimate in my future. Yeah,

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it's a defense mechanism. We always
do this. Yep, absolutely, so,

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I'm yeah, I'm my as far
as your thoughts on this, I'd

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love to hear what I mean.
What would you suggest as something we actually

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do about this from a Christian perspective
and just in general? Well, I

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mean in general is and Christian both
get the first initial answer, which is

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therapy. Amen. You know,
emotional wellbeing takes processing and time and and

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where honor that we get to have
conversations like these in the public sphere on

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Youtube and people kind of witness US
digging and picking a part of and thoughts

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and emotions and stuff to a certain
extent. But we can't replace, and

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nor should we, a license trained
clinical counselor, you know, professional that

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is taught how to help one figure
out all these little subtleties that that you

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know are impacting us in unhealthy way. So that would be the first answer.

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Like get it, you know,
it's great. I mean I've seen

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commercials lately. They have online versions
now. You don't even have to lease

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your home. Just go in there. And I'm not going to say anyone

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particular because we're not being sponsored,
all right, but go find it.

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There's ways to get therapy right and
more insurances are covering them and even if

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they don't, every dollar spent in
it is it's worth it. And I

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get some people, you know,
they like well, financially, I can't.

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I get there's conversations for that and
society should make it more accessible.

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That could be another point on both
points. As to the church more specifically,

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because obviously that's a Roman which I
work. I think. I think

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this is a call again that we
need to get back to basics, about

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healthy interpersonal relationships. MMM, and
we need to start prioritizing relationships in the

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plutonic sense instead of I think this
is again we've touched on it. This

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is another consequence of the church idolizing
marriage. Yep, and again, I

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get that marriage is great and I
get that it's an identic institution and that

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God meant for wonderful things to happen
out of it. But I think something

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we miss, and I would even
go back to genesis language with this,

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is before there was even the first
marriage, there is the statement that Adam

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and the woman were naked and not
ashamed. HMM. And, and I'm

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not trying to get into all these
people, like who the boobs and whatever,

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but you know, because the church
again is oversexualized everything, they can't

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function on understanding text but in the
Hebrew mindset because again, remember, the

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First Testament was written by Hebrews for
Hebrews. So you know, you got

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to get this Western interpretive mindset out
of your head. But this idea of

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nakedness is means there's nothing covering you, there's nothing, there's nothing preventing a

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full understanding or view of the other. And then this Hebrew phrase they were

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naked and not ashamed, was an
idea that they could be totally transparent with

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one another and they were perfectly validating
and okay with that right. And it's

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interesting that once to get overly theological, but once San once the fall.

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However, you want a word.
It takes place in genesis three. The

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first sign that we have that something
has gone terribly wrong is that this nakedness

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that before was not a problem for
them, all of a sudden they interpret

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as a problem. They go I
am naked, and their first steps to

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try and cover themselves up. It's
to try and modify the appearance or people's

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accessibility to them. And ever since
right, we see that relationship immediately deterior

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rates, not only between God and
them, but that Adam and the woman

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are throwing each other under the bus, you know, blaming one another.

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There's a breakdown and relationship and I
think the church really needs to get back

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to an understanding of so much of
what we do as humans, Christian and

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nonbeliever. Right we are covering.
We are jet you know, we're always

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going through life. I even do
this. I did this with church people

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all the time. Right. You
always are wanting to know how safe is.

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How much of me do they get
to see and it's safe for them

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to do that? Right, I
be we do it to ourselves. How

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safe is it for me to really
get in touch with myself? Why are

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so many people scared of therapy?
HMM, right, because I think we

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spend so so long trying to and
I think the social media age is heightened

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this and why it's become addictive to
so many people is that social media feels

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like a way that we can control
what somebody sees about us. We can

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create the US that we've wanted,
but we can't seem to navigate through and

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therapy helps you get down to the
root of it, but it digs away

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all of these fake clothing. I
guess, to use spiritual language right.

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I mean Adam and the woman both
went to fig leaves, as the story

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would go, to try and cover
themselves, and the irony about that is

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the very thing they went to to
cover themselves was going to be there undoing,

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because they never really understood the concept
you rip a leafoff, it's going

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to die, it's going to shrivel, it's going to get brittle, it's

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going to break. And I think
so many areas, including this, where

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men are using women as their emotional
dumping ground, where we've hypersexualized any and

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all relationships, that you can't.
I mean we've almost become like ancient Rome

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again, where the idea that you
could not have an emotional connection to somebody

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without being interested in sex. Yep, right and then. And people just

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so they mistook even the early church
that was trying to care about people and

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they're like, oh, so they
must be having orgies and stuff because they

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always meet together and get emotional.
Well, that doesn't necessarily you have to

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imply sexuality. But but again we
keep going to things like fig leaves to

401
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cover ourselves, to handle relationships,
and the very things we're doing, the

402
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coping mechanisms, the defense mechanisms,
men don't cry whatever. You're gay if

403
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you're emotional. All these things we
do are actually deteriorating ourselves, deteriorating society

404
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and destroying the church. So,
from a church perspective, that's a long

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00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:03.640
way of saying we need to get
back to understanding what human, interpersonal,

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plutonic relationships mean, what God's ideal
is for that and recognizing that hand in

407
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:14.640
hand with growing healthy relationships is having
a healthy relationship with yourself, and that

408
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.400
means get some therapy. Yeah,
learn how to name the emotions that you're

409
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.880
actually experiencing. That that has been
one of the key things, even in

410
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:26.319
the last several weeks that I've been
that I've been trying to do more is

411
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.759
learning to identify what I'm feeling faster
to and being able to name those,

412
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.400
those emotions. That is that is
really helped me, because it also helps

413
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.759
me understand what, whatever my compulsion
is, if my compulsion to have a

414
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:42.720
to take a certain course of action, if I'm feeling it very strongly,

415
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:47.599
I need to be able to sit
in identify why I'm feeling this compulsion.

416
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.440
What is the actual root emotion that's
causing me to go this route? That

417
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:55.200
actually has stopped me from doing making
bad decisions and as well as helped me

418
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:59.920
make good decisions. One thing too, that I recently, I just finished,

419
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.359
actually the day before we recorded this, just finished my, I want

420
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:11.759
to say, third or fourth therapy
session for or third, third therapy session

421
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:17.160
with a new therapist and knowing that
emotional intimacy was a problem, and even

422
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:19.400
even though I'd seen this comment a
long time ago and hadn't really put tuned

423
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:23.119
two together, at some level I
knew that I was always drawn to,

424
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.920
when it came to sharing about my
life, drawn to talking with a female

425
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.880
and I wanted to work on that. And so even in choosing my therapist,

426
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:37.440
I actually intentionally chose a male specifically
so that I could use those sessions

427
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:45.039
as well as practical moments of practicing
emotional intimacy and sharing of myself too,

428
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.079
and that was something that if you're
someone who can identify that that's something you

429
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:51.559
need to work on, that might
be a good course of action to take,

430
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:53.000
is to find a therapist who is
a male so you can have a

431
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.640
safe place, a guaranteed safe place, basically, assuming it's a good therapist.

432
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:04.039
You know you can have bad experiences. I have had several the but

433
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.680
assuming you can find a safe place
to to practice that, that's what that's

434
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.400
what it provides you. And I
would say to women to if this is

435
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:15.160
something you hadn't really given a lot
of thought to. I when I say

436
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:17.720
there's something you can do to protect
yourself. What I don't mean is it's

437
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:22.920
your responsibility to make sure the man
doesn't use you as an emotional dumping ground.

438
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.599
What I am saying is, if
there is a male in your life

439
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.720
that you are friends with, then
out of that platonic care for them,

440
00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.720
this is something that you can do
to help them become a better man and

441
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.920
become a better person and more of
the person that that God is even calling

442
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:42.079
them to be. And so I
would say having proper boundaries for yourself and

443
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:45.400
being able to recognize when you're being
used as an emotional dumping ground, but

444
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:55.240
also and putting a stop to that, but also helping encourage your friends to

445
00:31:55.400 --> 00:32:00.960
go to each other for for with
emotional vulnerability, to encouraging them saying hey,

446
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:05.039
I really appreciate you sharing all of
this with me and being willing to

447
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.319
talk about this. I'm you know
just are are these things you also talk

448
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:12.480
about with with your other Guy Friends? Or, like you know, are

449
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.920
there other guy friends that you share
this with too? I don't want to

450
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:17.680
be the only person that you that
you share this with. I believe that

451
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:21.279
this is important for you to be
able to share with your friends and the

452
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:24.559
people that care about you, and
I think that is a perfectly healthy and

453
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:30.000
safe conversation to have, because it
may even help leading, help lead that

454
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:35.920
guy to understand that some of his
friendships are actually toxic. I say all

455
00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:39.799
of that once again to say do
that out of the care of being a

456
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:45.119
good friend, but also having proper
boundaries that you weren't taken advantage of by

457
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:51.160
a guy who is unwittingly doing this. And for guys, I would say,

458
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:53.279
yeah, we need to practice being
emotionally intimate. I mean Henry and

459
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:58.200
I even in this conversation identified one
of the kind of coping mechanisms that we

460
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:01.160
use when we're being emotionally vulnerable,
and I think that that's something that both

461
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.240
of us, even without saying just
in the subtext of this conversation, I

462
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.599
realized, yeah, we need to
work on we need to work on that.

463
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:14.400
And so in being more emotionally vulnerable
and open with each other without the

464
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:22.000
temptation to go into some overly dramatic, be essentially gay joke that is overall

465
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.039
defensive and not something that we should
be doing. And so I'm you know,

466
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.359
I'm excited and also nervous to put
that into practice because it's going to

467
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.160
feel weird and it's going to feel
awkward and that's okay. Well, it's

468
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:36.720
risk. Yeah, right, I'm
exactly. Whatever is one thing I want

469
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:38.640
to jump in there some sometimes we
need to be careful. Again, like

470
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:42.400
society, that it's not always the
woman that has to fix something. Now

471
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:44.799
it's her fault. She needs to
put a progra boundaries. That's why I

472
00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:49.359
was trying very hard to do not
imply that. Right, right, exactly.

473
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:51.880
I mean, guys, we got
to own up. Yeah, right,

474
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.000
we need to be man and realize
it's going to take some vulnerability,

475
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:58.039
it's going to take risk, it's
going to be take being the brunt of

476
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.000
a few jokes. I'm sure to
try and move in that direction. But

477
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:06.519
here's one thing I have no shame
in saying. If the joke continues too

478
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:08.320
much from someone else for you doing
that, that just proves that they're not

479
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.360
in the stage in their journey that
they can be non toxic with you and

480
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:15.800
you might need to rethink your friends. Yeah, that's that's nothing personally against

481
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.760
them. It just means they're not
on that part of the journey. But

482
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.760
you can't use other people's lack of
being far on the journey as a reason

483
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:24.960
to stunt your own growth, because
that's another problem that everybody always points to

484
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.159
the other well, I'm better than
them and I'm not that. Especially from

485
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.320
a Christian perspect active, I would
argue right. The Apostle Paul in the

486
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:35.320
new testament makes comments over and over
again where he goes right. You know,

487
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:37.880
we judge ourselves by ourselves and in
the end we're fools. M Right,

488
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:42.679
you're just going to stay stupid if
you think, well, what Os

489
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.360
Stupid? I don't have to be
better than that. Come on, right,

490
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.440
you know you owe this to yourself, you owe this to the people

491
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:52.760
that are in your lives. Not
to be that. So what if these

492
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:55.280
other men won't get it right?
And I know there's part of that like

493
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:59.119
wow, but I need them to. You know, I'm sitting here listen

494
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.000
to this conversation even thinking of,
you know, interpersonal issues I have with

495
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:06.599
some members of my extended family or
my wife's side of the family or whatnot,

496
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:12.400
and some stubbornness there where there's some
men that are again emotionally unavailable or

497
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.320
you know, Ryan kind of knows
what I'm dancing around. I yes,

498
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.480
I be careful, man, that
on Youtube in a public platform, that

499
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:22.280
you don't like drag your wife's family
into it. That's why I'm trying to

500
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.519
dance around this, because it's like
that's not healthy either or could be misconstrued

501
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:29.960
in the fact that we're kind of
working through this online. But, but,

502
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:31.039
but, yeah, you know,
there's part of you like, well,

503
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:36.559
I won't engage in the journey because
until they're willing to admit just stop,

504
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:39.039
just get yourself together. That was
kind of the thing. Even my

505
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:43.119
wife and I were having discussions with
the other day about something. It's like,

506
00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:47.159
well, maybe we should just preemptively
get some couples therapy and learn how

507
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:51.599
to better address these things instead of
just waiting for the big crisis to come,

508
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.760
yeah, and blow up in our
face and then have a big,

509
00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:00.320
you know, nuclear infected whole to
dig out of. Right. You know,

510
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.679
you owe it to people. Just
let's learn how to be emotionally available

511
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:08.159
in appropriate ways and expressive and appropriate
ways, and let's not leave it to

512
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:13.000
to to women or to other men
or to other people. Are other people

513
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.000
to move that iceberg. Start chipping
away at it yourself, because if everybody

514
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:20.000
keeps using excuses not to, they
won't. Yeah, I mean that.

515
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:22.760
The bottom line is, when I
look at my marriage and our relationship for

516
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:29.559
the two years prior, I any
not any, but I can pretty confidently

517
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:34.599
say that a lot of problems that
I may have caused or that I was

518
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:38.599
the cause of were almost, I
can almost guarantee you, were rooted in

519
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:44.800
my lack of understanding of my own
emotions and the lack of me having taken

520
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:49.800
the time to process some of the
some of the crap that I need to

521
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.159
process and sift through of my own
life. Bottom bottom line is, the

522
00:36:53.199 --> 00:37:00.760
longer eventually it comes out expressed in
some way, shape or form and it

523
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.280
will affect others around it's not just
something we can carry inside, and I

524
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:08.800
get that for a lot of us
we won't. me saying that isn't enough.

525
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:13.599
You're going to have to experience it
for yourself to to really understand it

526
00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:16.000
or feel the need to do something
about it. But I can pretty confidently

527
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.920
say that had I taken time earlier
in my life to really get to know

528
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:28.920
myself and learn how to accept and
and process in and deal with the emotions

529
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.119
that I have and experience both about
myself and the world around me, yeah,

530
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.920
there were a lot of things that
we still may have gone through but

531
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:38.920
could have been handled a lot differently
or could have been handled a lot more

532
00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:44.760
smoothly, and I would say absolutely
agree with you that men need to own

533
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:49.639
up and and deal with this.
It is not the woman's responsibility to make

534
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:53.000
you emotionally vulnerable or intimate, and
it's up to you to take the risk

535
00:37:53.239 --> 00:38:00.360
because it's your stuff, it's not
theirs, and I am tired of us

536
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:05.679
saying that it's the woman's responsibility to
take to fix a man's problem. The

537
00:38:05.719 --> 00:38:10.679
most that a woman can do is
support and encourage and have healthy boundaries around

538
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:16.599
herself. This is the mant this
is your job as a man to address

539
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.800
and so, I mean this is
another big problem with a lot of failed

540
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.440
romantic relationships. Must be honest,
the only woman at any time in your

541
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:30.400
life that has any sort of either
need to or write to or should try

542
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.960
any sort of, quote, emotional
fixing of you is your mom. But

543
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.000
that is not fair of your significant
other, your wife, your spouse,

544
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:39.920
or you know whatever, to make
them your mother. Yeah, right,

545
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:43.559
I think that's another societal joke,
but there is some truth to it.

546
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:45.360
They're like well, that's you know, it's fine to be a mama's boy

547
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:50.320
when your Tan, not when you're
thirty eight. And you know, I'm

548
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:53.440
close to my mom still, but
I've come to a point to recognize my

549
00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.360
mom's job is not to keep fixing
me, and my spouse didn't just take

550
00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.760
my mom's place and now fix me. Yeah, all right, own it.

551
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:05.039
You're an adult now, or I
would hope you consider yourself adults,

552
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:07.800
so act like one. Yep,
right, and that. No, that

553
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:09.320
doesn't mean you just double down and, no matter if you don't know what

554
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:13.159
you're doing, you just keep pushing
forward. Not Us again. Go get

555
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.440
help as an adult. But that's
what therapists are for, not your spouse,

556
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:20.559
not your mom, unless, I
guess, in a weird way,

557
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.880
your mom is a clinically trained psychologist
or psychiatrist, but at the same point

558
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:29.119
that's probably conflict of interest. That's
not going to help you have the disimpassioned,

559
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:31.599
disinvested view that you need. So
probably go find someone else. Nothing

560
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.559
against your mom, I'm sure she's
great and helping people through it with her

561
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:40.079
clinical training, but just go get
help. Yeah, absolutely. Both Henry

562
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:44.079
and I are people who have gotten
help and are getting help. We're not

563
00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:49.840
people that are saying this without any
sort of disconnection from this. So this

564
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:53.000
is a journey that both of us
are currently on and if it would help

565
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:59.639
anyone in this in this journey for
themselves, Henry, I'll be the first

566
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:01.840
to demonstrate, which is just saying, Henry Man, I love you.

567
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:07.519
I am really grateful for your friendship
and the way that you've impacted my life

568
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.519
and encourage me to be a better
man as well, and the ways that

569
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:15.480
you've taught me about myself, about
marriage, about both what to do and

570
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:17.480
what not to do. But Man, I out of what not to do.

571
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:22.840
I'm really grateful for someone that I
can trust with with pretty much,

572
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.239
I feel, every every part of
me and every part of my story,

573
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:29.960
and that's something that I don't haven't
found often, and it's something I'm really

574
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:35.599
grateful for that I found in you. So that's why, without about the

575
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:38.920
seeming like it's a a pressure to
coerced just love fest, I would definitely

576
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:44.000
second all of that and return but
to and I think you know that,

577
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:46.440
but I would also express I thank
you for the willingness to be vulnerable with

578
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.760
that, because I'd be the first
to it men. I haven't always handled

579
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:52.320
that the best. I mean we
were just talking about that. You and

580
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.840
I both do pretty good when there's
not others around, but then others get

581
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:59.400
around, we get weird and sometimes
I'm the first initiator of the weird jokes.

582
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:02.599
You know if we even thought about
even recently. I remember even at

583
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:07.360
the photo shoot for your wedding,
right, we were gonna it. Sometimes

584
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:09.079
we overplay it with your own wife, right. We kind of play up

585
00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:13.360
that H we're gay secretly and love
each other more than you guys and we

586
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.840
will picking on our spouses like you
guys are out of luck. I mean

587
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:17.840
we even we even maybe they're surt
our wives that you and I would have

588
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:23.360
our own photos shoot post wedding correct
like that's how for something you might chuckle

589
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:29.400
evens exactly, and some of you
might laugh and billy who it's innocent fund

590
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.800
and maybe there is, but there. But whether it's in the intent is

591
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:36.039
innocent or not, that doesn't negate
the fact that as we mature and grow,

592
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.039
we can learn that even in innocence
there can be harm or pain or

593
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:44.440
unhealthy behavior. And so I just
thank you for being part of that journey

594
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.199
with with me as well, and
and I thank you that. I'm pretty

595
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:51.719
certain, knowing going forward, both
going to help hold each other accountable.

596
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.280
To that. Yeah, and and
even as vulnerable as the day is,

597
00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:57.760
I guess I'd turn it around and
thank you, guys, the viewers,

598
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.760
that for whatever reason, keep allowing
us to week into your life and sit

599
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:06.239
three thousand and forty, an hour, hour and fifteen sometimes with us,

600
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:09.679
even though you don't know as personally
per se, and and allow us to

601
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:13.000
work through these things, and I
say thank you for the ways in which

602
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.679
you healthily try and hold us accountable
as well. If you watch an episode,

603
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.920
you know I mean, I guess, even real ones that have already

604
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:22.599
been recorded and up for a while
before we had these revelations. You know,

605
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:25.880
if you feel free to comment and
be like hey, dudes, you

606
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.599
know, we give what you're trying
to do and we appreciate your growth,

607
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:31.599
but there's this one part in this
episode back here where you guys were just

608
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:35.840
kind of, you know, you
were playing that game, you were being

609
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:39.199
awkward, you were being overly jokey
like that, and in a spirit of

610
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:43.079
love, you know, work on
that now. No, we're not going

611
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.199
to go back in self censor ourselves. First of all, because Ryan,

612
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.280
because Ryan's are main editor. Ryan, I'll got time to do that,

613
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:53.480
okay. Ain't going back to every
episode and figuring out where we were dumb,

614
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.320
because that's the case, we wouldn't
have episodes, right. So I

615
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.719
mean, but I mean that's part
of the vulnerability. You guys are seeing

616
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.920
our progression in a recorded format open
to the public. But yeah, but

617
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.039
you know, from the date of
this recording moving forward, especially, you

618
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.559
know how pulled US accountable and we
appreciate that and and again now that it's

619
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:15.400
your job to fix this either,
because we all know, where has a

620
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:19.960
comment section ever change somebody's life for
the positive? Yeah, right, exactly.

621
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:22.039
Well, gay, so the first
and you can help change our lives

622
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:29.079
for the positive. That's right.
Make a difference on Youtube. Be The

623
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:31.679
change you want, whatever. But
my whole point was, you know,

624
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:36.840
thank you, guys, alphost accountable. But yeah, that was that was

625
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:40.119
my contribution to that. Love.
I love it. And Yeah, thank

626
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:45.199
you, Henry, and I co
sign again all of the accountability points that

627
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:46.360
you brought up. I think it
is something that we will work on and

628
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:50.320
grateful for viewers who do the same
and have been patient with us, as

629
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:53.360
we are on our own journey as
well. So to viewers and listeners,

630
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.880
please give us some feedback. Let
us know your thoughts in the comment section

631
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.920
on Youtube, review the podcast on
on Apple podcast or spotify. Let us

632
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:06.400
know how we're doing so that we
can continue to make improvements to the show.

633
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:09.000
One of the improvements we need to
make is consistent release schedules, but

634
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:13.599
that's on me and if you have
any interest in helping us with that,

635
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.159
I'm not going to say so.
It's on I'M gonna say it's on both

636
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:19.760
of us, in the sense that
I will admit Ryan's the one with a

637
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:22.360
technical skill in this area and I
probably could learn the technical skill on this

638
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.599
area. I've got a lot of
time and I need to learn some time

639
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:30.360
management skills to get don't throw yourself
under the bus right now where it's all

640
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.719
good, but thank you everyone so
much for listening, for being on the

641
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.000
journey with us, and we'll see
you next week.