WEBVTT
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Process is not prescriptive and it's just about finding what works for you and practicing flexibility and some fluidity because what works for one book may not necessarily work for another book.
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But understanding the principles of story and storytelling and allowing a reader to experience that is very helpful to understand at the outset.
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Hey writer, welcome to the Write It Scared Podcast.
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I'm Stacy, your host.
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The podcast is on a break for the summer while I recharge and get ready for season four.
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But I didn't want to leave you hanging.
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Over the next couple months, I will be pulling some favorite solo episodes from the vault, episodes on craft, mindset, and just the messy reality of writing our books.
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Also, as a reminder, the Courage Files will remain open for submissions all summer long.
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The Courage Files is a new segment launching on the podcast in season four where listeners share moments of writing courage, big or small.
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Maybe you finally figured out how to make a tricky scene work, or you finished your draft, or you shared your work.
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Maybe you returned to writing after a long time away, or you simply kept going when it would have been easier to quit.
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Whatever your moment looks like, I want to hear about it.
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And with your permission, share it on the podcast next season to help inspire other writers.
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Because remember, we're in this together.
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Every submission received this summer will be entered for a chance to win a free editorial assessment and book coaching session with me.
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And I'll announce the winner when season four kicks off this fall.
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To submit, go to writeitscared.co forward slash courage hyphen files, or you can find the link in the show notes.
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And if you're diving into planning or drafting a new novel this summer, grab my free novel quick start guide.
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It's called First Draft Confidence, and it's designed to help you build a strong foundation for your story so that you can move into your first draft with more clarity, more confidence, and a whole lot less flailing.
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You can find the novel quick start guide at writeitscared.co forward slash novel planning guide, or you can also find the link for that in the show notes.
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All right, so let's get into today's episode, and I'll see you back for real in season four.
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Hi, writer.
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Welcome back to another episode of the Ride It Scared podcast.
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I'm your host, Stacey Fraser.
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And as you can tell, I don't have much of a voice today because I've come down with some crime cold.
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So I'm gonna try to save my voice for tomorrow when I meet with my clients, go over their submissions.
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And because of that, I didn't have it in me to record a solo episode for you for the corruption arc.
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And I don't think you really want to listen to me this way, anyway.
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So what I'm going to do instead is share the interview I did with Imadeshi from the Be a Bestseller Summit 6.0 Back to Basics event in January.
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And it was on how a writer can approach planning and outlining their novel in a way that would work for them, regardless of whether they were a pantser or a plotter.
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So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
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And when we come back for another craft chat, voice willing, we will talk about the corruption arc and then wrap up our character arc discussion with the static art.
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So thank you very much for your patience and I hope you enjoy the interview.
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Hey everybody, and welcome back to another lovely interview with Be a Bestseller 6.0 back to basics.
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And today's guest is the lovely Stacy Fraser.
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Stacy is a formally repressed creative soul-turned fiction writer.
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She's an author accelerator, certified book coach, and the host of the Write It Scared podcast.
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Her mission is to help beginning and struggling fiction writers overcome self-doubt, to find joy, and gain clarity and confidence in their process and craft so that they finish books they are proud of.
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When not writing, reading, or working with writers, you can find Stacy crafting with her daughter, hanging out with goats, of course, and on the trail with her goofy love pups.
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Today we're going to be talking about how to plan or outline your novel.
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But Stacy, welcome.
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So lovely to have you here.
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Thank you for having me, Emma.
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So I can't mention goats and not ask you about them.
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Do you have one goat, multiple goats?
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No, you cannot have just one goat.
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They are parasocial creatures.
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If you have one goat, you will have a very lonely, sad goat.
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So no.
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I have five, six, seven now.
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That's little haired.
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You've got a little haired goat.
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I I do, I do.
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I've always been uh I have an affinity for dirt and animals as well as stories.
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So I love that.
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I used to I used to milk them and make lotion and soap and all the things.
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And then when I had my daughter, just too many hobbies.
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So but they I love them and they are they they are now my pasture pets.
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Oh, lovely.
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And are they as grumpy as we kind of led to believe they are, or are they quite quite cheerful?
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Very sweet.
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Love it.
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Well, we are not here to talk about goats, unfortunately, but we are here to talk um about planning, plotting novels, getting things in shape, or thinking about things before we start doing the writing.
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But just before we delve into that, I'd love it if you'd share with me and our audience a little bit about yourself and how you stopped being repressed and stepped into the to the writing world.
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Yeah.
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Well, I love that question.
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And I always find a find it's hard for me to answer in just like a small nugget, but I'll do, I'll do my best.
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I grew up believing that creativity was not for me and that I did not have a place in that kind of world.
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And I pursued a very linear education and career path, and I chose a lot of I should do.
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I should do this, I should do that.
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And that led me to degrees in economics and in medicine, and I practiced medicine for 10 years as a physician assistant.
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And as in story, you know, our stories are about characters' internal journeys.
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I my internal self was rubbing up against this world I had created, and I was very unhappy.
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And no dirty details, but there came a point when the rubber met the road and I had to do some changing.
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And through that, I leaned into stories again.
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And really, that is probably where I discovered the power of story.
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Story truly has the power to change and shape lives and save them.
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And it's no stretch to say that it saved mine.
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And so hearing other people's stories, reading other people's stories, fiction or nonfiction, is a way to create empathy for yourself and compassion for yourself as well as others in your community.
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So that is I started writing, did not know a thing, and you know, expected it to be good, that it was not good at all.
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But I really, you know, I took time and hell of a lot of therapy.
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But I came to the place where I believe that, you know, my voice is as unique as yours, as unique as the others, and we all have something to say.
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And if we want to say it in whatever manner, in long-form fiction, which happens to be mine, uh, then we can learn the tools that we need to be able to do that.
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Yes, and that is oh, so many good, good things in there.
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I think you you had your own inciting incident, which then changed things and moved you into fiction.
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And I think that happens for a lot of us who have taken that sort of more scenic route towards writing and storytelling, that's something happens in our lives that makes us kind of think, do you know what?
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I've got to do this, I've got to make shake things up, I've got to change things so that I feel fulfilled or what was important isn't quite as important as it once was.
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And actually, particularly for us women, there comes a point where we think, maybe I'm allowed to do this for myself.
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Even if I never publish, even if I never become a bestseller, this is a joy for me and it it's fulfilling and it calms my brain and balances everything out for me.
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So I'm going to be allowed to do it.
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So I thank you for sharing that with us.
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I love too that you mentioned the idea of this story being it's it's about compassion, it's about people, it's about learning.
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And I 100% agree.
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I don't think we fully understand actually when we're when we're simply readers, when we're we're not thinking about this from the creative side of it, but the consumer side.
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I don't think we always understand just how much novels do have an impact on us and how we view the world and that we live vicariously through a character and sort of almost unknowingly it it can help us see the world differently and be kind of more open to things we might not have been beforehand.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So I love that you've mentioned that.
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And then finally, the thing that I did appreciate you pointing out is that your voice is unique as my voice, as unique as anybody else's.
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And I know that's something that a lot of writers worry about is what have I got to say?
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Do I have a special enough way of saying it?
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My vocabulary is not big enough or I'm not well read enough.
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But an analogy or an example I often used is, you know, our fingertips.
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We each have our own fingerprint, and that is unique.
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And it's as unique as the experiences we bring to our story, and whatever words we choose, whatever vocabulary we use, it's unique and it ours.
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And so I'm really glad that you you mentioned for our listeners.
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So, but let's dive into our topic, shall we, about planning and plotting and preparing ourselves for this book.
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And I know that one of the steps, and maybe some would say might be the most important step, but certainly one of the primary steps is that idea of what's going up in your head, you know, where we're at up there.
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And so mindset, I think, possibly is is one of the steps that that you you believe in and having that as being as part of your preparation.
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Yeah.
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And before I go there, I'll just say that this is not prescriptive.
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It's really process is not prescriptive.
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And it's just about finding what works for you, taking what you like, molding it into a process that's, you know, works for you and practicing flexibility and some fluidity because what works for one book may not necessarily work for another book.
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But understanding the principles of story and storytelling and allowing a reader to experience that is very helpful to understand at the outset.
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But having said that, not prescriptive, there's no one way to write a novel.
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So, and and certainly I'm not going to talk about an exhaustive outlining process today.
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So if you're a panther or a discovery writer, you're safe and it's okay.
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But yeah, so mindset, I always invite writers to think about the relationship they want to have with the creative work, especially if this is your first or maybe second time.
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I mean, welcome, welcome to the madness and the magic that is, you know, writing a novel.
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You can be thrilled in one second and miserable the next because you just realize the thing you discovered just created an entire plot tangle for you someplace else.
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So, and I and I just want to encourage people to find the communities and the pockets and the places because this is that that resonate with them because this is a very warm and inclusive place.
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I didn't know that.
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I didn't believe that when I first got here, but I have come to learn that.
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So, yes, mindset.
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One, I think setting your expectations up from the get-go is really important.
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Nobody writes a perfect novel in one shot.
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Nobody edits everything perfectly on the first pass.
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This is messy.
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And it, it really probably doesn't necessarily get less messy.
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You get more, maybe more efficient and better at handling the mess as you practice.
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And that's another thing is that writing is a practice.
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And this is a practice where we will pursue it and no one really will ever master it entirely because it evolves and it changes with the times.
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And it's as unique to you or me or anybody else.
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So, yeah, just grounding yourself in your expectations, thinking about it as a learning experience.
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You don't have to do it perfectly in one shot.
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Thinking that you will or that you will be the exception will create pain.
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And, you know, it's not just a one and done either.
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You can't just say, okay, well, I'm gonna have a positive mindset here and a learning mindset.
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It creeps in the inner critic, the procrastination, the perfectionistic tendencies, those things will creep in, the comparison will creep in.
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So cultivating a level of self-awareness as you're planning, developing your story, as you're writing, as you're editing, and doing some self-checks, be like talking to that negative piece, the negative voice on the shoulder, and being like, I don't, I don't need this right now.
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And just know that it's normal.
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It doesn't make you bad, good, or indifferent.
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It's just we all have it.
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So keep your expectations low, embrace a spirit of exploration, of creativity.
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And when you find that you're frustrated, it's a good time to pause.
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You don't have to write every day.
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You don't have to so that's an interesting thing to to bring up.
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So many good things in there.
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I think the the cultivating this, the curiosity that there's a practice that we are never going to know all of this, the same with any art form.
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You never entirely master it.
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There's always an evolution for every writer.
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But so let me ask you though, about that idea of writing every day.
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Is that something that you feel because it's quite contentious, I think.
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Some people think, yes, you do need to do this because this is how you develop your practice and this is how you you develop your process as well, and it gets you into the routine of it and it takes away the pressure.
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And then others will be like, well, no, it adds the pressure, and it's, you know, you don't need to write every day.
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So do you fit into kind of one of those camps, or what have you noticed with the people, either in your own writing experience or with the people that you work with?
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It depends on the writer.
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You know, discipline is discipline, but it can be facilitated in different ways.
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So I encourage writers to show up for their story.
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And some writers need to be able to breathe a little bit and think about things and and noodle.
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Other writers do better if they come to the page and they type.
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They noodle as they type.
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You know, so it just depends on the person.
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You know, at the end of the day, if we're talking about goals here and we're trying to align our intentions and our actions with our goals, and we're not meeting those, then we need to look at the process that's shaping them and make adjustments.
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There is no one size fits all.
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Part of the job of being a writer, particularly those early books, is you finding your process, I think.
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And that can be as equally fr frustrating as putting the words on the page as well.
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Because one of the things you just said earlier was that actually the process for every book can be a bit different as well.
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It's not just a one-and-done thing.
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And I think that's really important for our newer writers listening to know that that it's a constantly evolving thing.
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And just when you think you've nailed it, something might shift a little bit.
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And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
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Yeah, exactly.
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There's anything wrong with you, the writer or the story.
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I mean, oh, it's just the the nature of this bizarre world we've chosen to kind of immerse ourselves in.
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Okay, so say we've got, you know, feeling good about it, we're feeling we've got the our expectations at the right level, and we want to start moving forward.
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So we might be a writer who's got an idea.
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How do we start to take that idea and then and start shaping it into something that might be workable?
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Yeah.
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So, you know, in the beginning, I said, you know, there's no prescriptive advice here.
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You can start any way you want, and ideas come from different, all kinds of an amalgam of different places.
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Having said that, I think it's really good to understand some basic fundamentals about story.
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Most of us assume we know what a story is because we've been steeped in it our whole lives.
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Uh, but when we sit down to write one, it's a little different.
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So understanding what a story is, it's not just a sequence of events.
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It's not just something that happens to someone.
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It's not, you know, it doesn't have to be big or dramatic.
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Uh, what it needs to accomplish is delivering an emotional experience to the reader.
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That's truly what a story is.
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And the way that it does that, the mechanism that it does that through is by anchoring into a character and demonstrating change, either change within the character or because of the character, there is change experienced in the world and the society of the story.
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So that's really what we have to remember is that we are shaping a collection of events to create change that resonates emotionally with the reader.
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So I think what I'm hearing you say then is that a plot line, what actually happens in the story, that is not separate from the change that a character goes through in, but actually they're they're interconnected and so one impacts the other.
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Absolutely.
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If you just take it up super high level, what is a story?
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Story is something that once it occurs, the change is permanent.
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Right?
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It can never the life as we know it can never go back to the way it was.
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Why?
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Because of the interpersonal transformation of the character or that character stayed true to their beliefs and values, and because of that made difficult decisions and the world around them changed.
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So it is interconnected.
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The character and the plot are intimately interconnected.
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You cannot have one without the other.
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They truly drive each other.
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So then the other piece, once you kind of have that idea, is like I'm creating a change that is linked to a character or cast of characters in this world.
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The next thing you want to think about is okay, how do I deliver this emotional experience?
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And that is where structure comes in.
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So understanding that structure, because you're, you know, you're trying to drive this thing to a satisfying ending for your reader.
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Structure is the vehicle that will allow you to do that.
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And I like to think of it as the scaffolding that supports the roller coaster ride, the journey that the character and thereby the reader is going to take.
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And it's not formulaic.
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And I used to think it was.
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And I was very like, I just re-embrace my creativity.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.960
I don't want anybody telling me what to do.
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:10.319
But I learned that there is a rhythm to it and a reason for it.
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:17.759
And so it creates that satisfying emotional ending, regardless of whether that is positive or negative.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.440
So understanding, and there's many, many different types of story structure out there.
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:27.599
And if you're a new writer stepping into this as your first or second book, and maybe you're trying to decide between what do I use?
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.559
No, three act, four act, W plot, save the cat, what whatever hero's journey.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:33.359
Pick one.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:35.519
Just pick one.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:36.880
Don't mix and match.
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.599
Just pick one that resonates with you that you like, because really they are all saying the same thing.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.720
They are all showing you how to create this transformation.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.200
And they might just be using different terminology.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.119
And so it's easy to get confused.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:54.160
So just pick one and understand that's the vehicle that's going to drive your bus to finish.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.119
I'm so glad you said that because you that absolutely reminds me of me.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:05.519
A number of years ago when I did think that all of these different structures were different.
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:12.400
And that's it took me a long time to realize that they were all talking about the same thing, but just using different terminology.
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:16.799
And I remember feeling it narrows the canon when you realize that.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:18.559
Yeah.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:28.000
You know, really in Western society, all of that really is it doesn't matter if it's the W plot or the Save the Cat or the Hero's journey.
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.039
It comes in like this three-piece mechanism, right?
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:40.240
We have beginning, we have begin beginning, middle, and and so all of that terminology, all of those plot points that they're talking about fits into that structure.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:40.799
Yeah.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:55.200
So yeah, so it's kind of just like how however the writer's brain works and what words resonate most and the kind of ways the way the the teacher talks about it, if that resonates with you and makes sense to your your creative brain, then go with that one.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.720
But yeah, it just it was I just laughed at myself and I realized, oh, it's all the same thing.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:01.200
Okay.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:02.480
Who do I resonate with?
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.400
And we're not like we're not making this up.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:05.920
This is backed by neuroscience.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:20.000
And for writers, like two really excellent resources to learn about how a human's brain interacts with story and why we are interested in the experience of being in a story.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.160
It's all back to our neurobiology.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:23.680
It's all back to survival.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:25.920
It's all linked to our lizard brain.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.640
But those resources are wired for story and story genius, both by Lisa Cron.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:31.920
Highly recommend them.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:32.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.000
I love Story Genius.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.160
It's one of my go-tos, absolutely.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:38.880
Especially in that planning stage.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:48.799
And one of the questions that she asks, and we're both author accelerator trained, so is something that comes up for both of us is why does the story matter to you?
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:58.400
And I think that is I think that is actually one of the parts of the planning that we need to do, which I didn't always see.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
And I wonder if you could speak into that.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.359
A little bit about why, and one of the questions we get we ask our clients is why does the story matter to you?
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.279
Why are you the person to tell it?
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:12.480
And that is quite a question that can stump you, you know, can can really confuse a lot of people.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:21.839
I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about that and from your own experience, maybe how you found it benefits your own storytelling, but also those of your clients.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.759
Well, I think again, it depends on the person.
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:31.119
Some people come in and they have an idea and they have a reason for that idea.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:32.720
Other people do not.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:45.920
And they, you know, they just they want to write something that is light and fun and exciting, and they haven't anchored into the internal experience that they're thinking about, that they're they're thinking about showing within the story for the character.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.039
And that's fine.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.920
So I keep it very high and very light.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.960
You know, what is it that interests you about this idea or this, you know, this scenario?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.440
What are you interested in exploring?
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:05.039
And if it's high and it's light and we haven't touched, we haven't really dug into the dirt yet, we leave it there and we explore some other elements of the story.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:13.920
And when we get to talking about, okay, so at the end of the day, what do you think your reader, what do you want, what kind of feeling do you want to leave your reader with?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.920
Then we come back to the why.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.279
Okay, but why does that matter?
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.079
So you want to write a hopeful story about love and connection.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:21.200
Why does that matter?
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:22.640
And so we come back to that.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:29.680
And the reason that we do is because writing a book takes a long, damn time, right?
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:37.519
So you're gonna be in this for a while, a year, maybe three, maybe five.
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:38.799
It just depends.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.400
Because again, this is a learning process.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:46.240
And if this is your first or second novel, you're learning a ton of stuff, it's and juggling a lot.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:24:05.359
So if you are intimately connected to the reason behind that story, when it gets discouraging and when it gets hard, because it will, going back into that piece of why it matters to you can be really helpful.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:10.720
And remembering that you don't have to do it right, you don't have to get it all done all perfectly in one shot.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.359
Stories are made in layers, lots of layers.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.000
The first layers we put down, they're not pretty.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:17.200
They're not supposed to be.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:18.880
It's like painting a fence, right?
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.359
Like the first coat, there's tons of holes.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:22.640
You can still see the wood.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:29.440
But over time, you know, it gets better and better and better until we have something that we're like, whoa, that's a really nice fence.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:29.759
Yeah.
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.000
So, yeah, so it just depends.
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:38.000
And then the other question of like, why are you the person to tell this story?
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:45.599
That is a heavy weight of frame, I think, what that question is trying to get at.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:51.200
And what I like to ask instead is how are you connected?
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:52.640
I like that.
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.359
How are you connected to this personal?
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.799
And usually people are.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.519
We're not writing about stuff we don't care about.
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:01.839
Yeah, it's so true, isn't it?
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.119
Because when we think about it as writers, there's we get a thousand ideas a day about what could be a story, what could be a story.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:21.519
But out of those hundreds of thousands of ideas that we get, there's only a very few that really stick with us that we think, ah, yeah, this might have legs, this might be something I could really do something with.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:26.000
And it's the idea that won't let us go and keeps coming back and keeps coming back.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:37.920
And I think that question, the those sort of two questions that we've been discussing are getting to the root of, well, why is it this story idea that won't let you go and keeps niggling away at you until you bite it?
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.599
So often, yeah, there there is that, there is that connection.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.200
That's a great way of saying it.
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:49.440
There is that connection, but we're we're not always conscious of it or found a way of articulating it when we store it.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:50.319
Yeah.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:50.960
Yeah.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:52.559
Lovely.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:54.079
Okay, so this is great.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:01.920
So we're we're kind of doing this sort of pre-thinking, if you like, about why the story matters, why we want to um to write it.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.640
We've looked at some of the elements of story as well.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.240
So we've touched on structure.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.640
Was there anything else that you wanted to kind of touch on with that in terms of?
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:48.559
Um well, I I think that again, so understanding what a story is, understanding the mechanism that you're gonna deliver the story through is structure, and then thinking about the elements that go into that, the components, which it doesn't matter like how you approach them or what in what order, but those are thinking about the setting, like where and when is this story gonna take place, and considering any world-building aspects that you need to dig into and how can where and when the story takes place add tension and conflict to the plot, to the story.
00:26:48.799 --> 00:27:04.640
Characters clearly thinking about who the story will will, you know, be driven by and what do they want, what do they value, what do they believe, and most importantly, how will they change through the experience of the story?
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.319
And you may not know that.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.799
You may not know, I mean, it's hard to, you know, bring people out of the ether.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:24.079
But if you if you have an idea of who they are at one point or other, one side of the story or the other, then you can either go forward and kind of think, okay, well, what's the inverse in either direction?
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:28.160
Like I have a, I want them to and in a place of happiness and hope.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:34.720
Well, perhaps at the start of the story they think their life is just fine and they don't need anybody, so they're disillusioned.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:39.359
Or perhaps they feel like they're undeserving of love, right?
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.000
So you can kind of work backwards from there.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:46.240
But whatever makes them engage into the story has got to come with cost.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:51.279
So you have to remember to build in these stakes, which is the why does it matter?
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.720
And it always has to matter.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.480
If your character could say no and nothing happens, it's not a story.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.640
Uh, say that again, for us.
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:06.480
If your character could say no and nothing happens to them because they say no, no, thank you.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.680
I don't want to engage, then it's not a story.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:14.559
There has to be something hanging in the balance for them.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.119
And that has to increase as the story goes forward.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.359
So now we're talking about conflict, right?
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:27.200
So that brings in conflict, and conflict is your antagonistic force, right?
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:31.359
Whatever is opposing your character, your character needs to want something.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.759
They need to want it badly at some point.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.720
They may not be aware of it at the very beginning of the story.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.680
They need to see that they want it badly, and then there's got to be something in their way.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:51.519
And so them crashing up against that antagonistic force in the context of the world that you created will create your plot.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:59.119
And will we and a plot is just a sequence of events that create change, micro changes throughout the story.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:04.000
The the antagonism that you mentioned there, the antagonistic force, is that always a person?
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.559
You know, is that the our antagonist?
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.079
Not necessarily.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.599
No, an antagonistic force.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:23.839
It can be external, it can be another character, it can be something in the world, it can be society, it can be a host, a host of things, but it is a form of oppression against the protagonist's desires.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.039
And it can also be the protagonists themselves.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:29.519
The character themselves can get in their own way.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:34.480
And oftentimes, really good story is made out of both, right?
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:59.039
There's external opposing forces, and then the character has internal, has an internal struggle that is keeping them from developing as a human, uh, as a person, and whether or not I kind of like to think of it as like they there's a lesson in the story, and the character either learns it and becomes better because of it, or they don't and they they're worse off.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:11.200
Also, you can have what we call a steadfast or a flat character where that person doesn't change, but their value systems are challenged throughout the story because of the conflict in the world that you've created.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:18.880
And their job is usually to stay true to those values and make difficult decisions and not take the easy path.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.240
Right.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.799
And then and then because of their actions, they wind up changing the world around them.
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.680
You know, they either save the world or they shift societal views or something like that.
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:30.160
Yeah.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:39.279
So is that kind of flat arc then would that be something, you know, like Jason Bourne or like probably James Bond is a better example where Yeah.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:42.240
So I think a really good example is like Katniss Everdeen.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:44.319
Katniss Everdeen is from The Hunger Game.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:45.839
She has a pretty steadfast arc.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.839
Internally, she does not change a whole lot.
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.160
She does change a little, but not a whole lot.
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:58.160
But she is challenged to she has the opportunity to do the wrong thing or the right thing multiple times throughout the story.
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:08.319
And it is her character and value system that keeps her making difficult decisions, not just to save her life, but to attempt to save other people's lives and work together.
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:25.519
And and yeah, so she's willing to make those sacrifices, then she shows, you know, that a villain can be defeated or at least outsmarted temporarily, and also that sacrifice there are more important things than just surviving.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.119
Yes, yeah.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.039
Yeah, she does make a lot of tough decisions.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.880
She's definitely a tougher cookie than I am.
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.559
I think I would have taken the easier route out than her.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:38.160
My story would not have been as compelling if I beated that.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:42.160
But that that actually brings you to the theme of the story.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.440
And that's the last element that you want to really think about in this melting pot, right?
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:58.880
So, I mean, you've got your setting, you've got your character, you've got your conflict and your plots, and then your theme, which is kind of the general message that the story is speaking to.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:05.519
I it draw it, it it's inner, it's messy, it's interconnected to all of these other things.
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:12.160
And it's I, you know, some some writers really need to anchor into that to be able to create their story.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:13.759
I am one of those writers.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:19.440
And it usually starts out as a question of what does it cost to live a lie?
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.119
And then it becomes something, a concrete statement.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.599
It costs your dignity, it costs everything, right?
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:28.079
And so that's the thing that I'm proving in the story.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:35.680
But it's very high level and it usually speaks to the character's journey, like whatever the change was that they experienced or the lesson of the story.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:40.400
It's not something we hit our readers over the head with, but it's an essence that can be extrapolated.
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.960
Once you put the book down, she's like, what did that?
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:48.480
So I don't put a whole ton of weight on it in the beginning when we're planning a book.
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:54.319
But if you if you dig into your characters and you trust your conflict, I think it emerges.
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:55.440
Yes, yeah.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.720
Theme is such is a a nuanced one, I always think.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.759
So sorry, just outline those those elements for us again.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:08.079
We had setting, character, character, character and character arc, right?
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:08.799
How they change.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.880
Conflict, plot, theme.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.839
Pain theme.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:16.480
Theme.
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:19.759
Pain Yes, that will work also.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:36.960
So these, so for just thinking about our listeners here who might be who might be writing their first book, and this might feel like a lot of things to kind of think about up front, and they may be saying, But I'm not a plotter, I'm a pantser.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.160
Do you feel that these are things we can come to over time?
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.680
You mentioned the word layering earlier, is that kind of things that we can layer in?
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:55.440
Or do you feel actually is quite it's it serves the writer to really think about these things up front, even if they don't have a concrete answer to everything?
00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:58.720
Again, it it depends on the writer.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:08.000
But what I do think you you have to appreciate and accept is I believe that a book takes a certain amount of energy.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:15.280
You know, and where how that energy is distributed depends on the writer.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:25.679
But people who enjoy spending time up front thinking about these elements, right, and noodling around these things, they're gonna spend a lot of time and energy there.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:31.840
And the drafting will be a little more streamlined for them, as probably will the revision.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:42.960
Now, writers who do not enjoy noodling these things out front, and they like to be in the page and on the line and creating as they go, fine also.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:51.360
But eventually you'll have to pull up and get a high-level view and be thinking about these elements because they exist in all story.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:57.519
And so eventually, you know, you're gonna have to pull them in and then you're gonna have to make sense of them.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:04.079
And that is all fine, but the but the heavy lifting and the energy may come later in in the story process.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.519
The sort, you know, the it may it might come in revision.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:13.280
You know, some people I have written books where I don't think about any of this stuff, not really.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.039
I that's not sorting out.
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:23.519
I think that is something that when we're that excitement that comes, we want to write that first book, we just want to do it and we get on with it.
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.719
Might do a little bit of pre-thinking, but the excitement takes over.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:36.719
And then I think there's maybe like this shift that happens once we sort of decide we make that move from this is a hobby to, ooh, I'd actually like to publish this book.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.440
And then we start thinking more and more in-depth about the story that we're writing.
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:47.760
So if if anyone's listening and they haven't thought about these things, you know, that that's perfectly normal as well.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:48.880
Yes, it is.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:51.679
And my catalyst was pain, really.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.880
It was it was because I got the got to the end of a book and went, what did I write?
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:02.880
And then uh had to go in and learn these elements and then, you know, redraft.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.360
And and the revision took a long time.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.719
So, you know, I thought to myself, man, maybe if I think about these things up front, it'll be easier and more efficient.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:29.519
And today I've developed a system for myself that works where I do some planning, not a ton, and I get my get myself to a place where I at least I know the conflict, I know what the challenges are gonna be, and I know why this is going to challenge my character.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.880
And I have an idea of how I want them to change.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.920
I cannot see very far into the story.
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:43.840
I can only usually see the beginning, and then it's like, you know, yeah, panting from there.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.239
So it's kind of an amalgam, you know?
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:52.159
So do you plan as far as head as say that you know what the inciting incident is going to be?
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.719
Or is even that sometimes a surprise?
00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:07.679
Yeah, and for anybody who doesn't know, an inciting incident is you have a character who is in a status, their their status quo, they're normal, and the inciting incident is the very first disruption to their world, and it can be positive or negative.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:19.840
Yes, I typically know the inciting incident, and I also know what I like to call like the choice and the jump into the second act of the story where they make that decision to step into a whole new world.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:25.760
For example, this is where just real super simple like your character stumbles across the body.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.239
That's the whoa, this person was murdered.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:35.119
And then, you know, a little more information is revealed to them, and they're like, oh, I'm I think I'm the only person that can solve this.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:40.000
But to do it, I'm gonna have to step into this whole world that I don't know.
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:45.440
That would be an example of now I am in the story, which we also call the promise of the premise, right?
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.039
The reason that we're reading the experience that we're coming to the table for of this amateur sleuth, right?
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:51.360
Yeah.
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:53.599
So that would just be simple example.
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:54.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:16.400
And then most of the time I know my middle ish-I at least I try to find that what we call a reversal where something is revealed, the the true scope of the conflict is typically revealed to the protagonist.
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:22.320
And in in your when you research story structure, you'll find that they call it a false victory or false defeat.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:34.719
It can be those, it doesn't have to be, but something and it doesn't have to be big or dynamic, but it has to be eye-opening to the protagonist.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:37.039
Sometimes I know that, sometimes I don't.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:38.960
And I never really ended.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.840
But a mad men when you write suspense.
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:44.559
Yeah.
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:54.159
Well, do you know I I'm amazed the amount of writers I've listened to and like big names who write thriller, suspense, crime, they don't know who did it either.
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:55.760
And so that always gives me hope.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:59.679
And I think, okay, it this is a sort of intuitive thing as we go along for a long.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.920
I anchor into that with all my heart.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:14.559
But in each of those, you know, you're talking about the inciting incident, and and then that that's you had a phrase for it that you but that kind of moment where something is revealed, it's maybe the second plot point where something is revealed.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:29.360
Uh those are moments where they have to be, am I right in thinking, they've got to be uh sufficiently important that the character can't say no, they've got to make a choice, they can't say no in their life carry on as normal.
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.639
This is gonna change the story in some way, shape, or form.
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:33.440
Yeah.
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:41.679
I think if you lean on a couple of things, whether you're planning or you're actually you're you're you know, you're noodling and planning or you're actually drafting.
00:39:41.920 --> 00:40:03.440
If you lean on always making your character make a tough decision and that there is follow-through and sometimes fallout because of that decision, you will naturally give yourself forward momentum in your plots, even if you don't know these terms, inciting incident, you know, first turning point, all the things, right?
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:18.159
If you lean on make them make decisions in service to their goals, or at least desire to make decisions in service to their goals, even if they're strapped down and they can't do anything, right?
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:20.400
Have them thinking about the plan.
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:31.840
If you, if you do that and then build in the the cost, it you you're naturally gonna give what we call the story narrative drive or plot thrust, right?
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:33.119
Forward momentum.
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:36.639
And that comes, that stems from character agency.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:43.360
And sometimes also, like if you get stuck in your plot and you're like, ugh, I don't know what happens next.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:41:01.519
If you think outside your character and into the scope of your ancillary characters, and you start thinking about your side characters or what the antagonistic force is doing, if it's a character or a sentient being, then that can help you put more pressure on the protagonist and force them into an uncomfortable choice again.
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:02.159
Right.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:08.239
So, but in general, in general, thinking about stories like we've got a beginning.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:18.079
We have somebody who's maybe not comfortable, but they are in a known situation and known world, and they may want something or they may want nothing to change.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:23.840
And then we disrupt them, and from that disruption, it triggers them to have a desire, a new want.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:30.320
They will either want to put things back in order or they're gonna want more of the good thing that just came to them, right?
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:39.760
So they will take action in service to the goals, but it won't be easy, and that's the job of the writer is like, don't make it easy, always make it harder.
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.679
And so that's one of the ways that we can then build that plot.
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:51.119
You know, and then so that we can pull it all together at the end, hopefully, and right.
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.599
And so, I mean, naturally, things will come to you.
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:59.360
I mean, if you're writing a story, I mean, just and that's where you use your world and your setting in the situation.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:04.079
I mean, if you have uh somebody who wants to play in the NBA, well, there's gonna be a tryout, right?
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:08.159
There's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be other players to contend with.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:09.599
There's gonna be competition.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:13.280
So you're building that it kind of comes organically.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:16.480
It's quite messy, but it does come.
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:23.199
Just keep your character making decisions and remember that because they made that decision, this is the next thing that happens.
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:27.119
Anytime something that happens in the story, use that because of that.
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:31.280
My character realizes desires, wants, takes action.
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:31.760
Yeah.
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:33.119
That will help you a lot.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:39.920
I I think that when you hear writers say the story kind of wrote itself, I think that's the sort of thing they're referring to.
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:55.360
It's not that this there's some magical voice came down and and told them what to write, but understanding how to put that plot line together and how the conflict forces the characters to make a decision that whatever the decision is, that then drives the plot forward.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.239
And and then, as you say, organic, messy, but we can organically come together.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:03.519
So I've always make good decisions, and that is okay.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:04.159
Yeah.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:05.440
Wow.
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.360
Stacey, we have covered an awful, awful lot in our our conversation today.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:23.280
But I I think it really is going to give people a really solid start to how they might want to think about planning or plotting a novel, no matter how their process is, whether they consider themselves cancers or plotters.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:28.480
But I'd like to for you just to share a little bit about how you work with writers.
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:32.960
How do you help writers write their first or second or third book?
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:51.199
Yeah, so I work with writers either in small group coaching environments where there's you know four to six writers at a time, and we create like a cohesive little community of support and camaraderie while they're learning the principles of story and begin developing their draft.
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:56.159
And then I and I also work with people one on one as well.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.280
And so it's very much the same process.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:07.599
Whether you enjoy being in a group coaching environment or you prefer being one-on-one.
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:21.920
The one thing that I feel very strongly about is in a group setting, writing a new brand new novel, especially if you're fairly new to this and you're drafting, it is not a time for critique from peers.
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:27.599
It's not the time for people to be looking at your lines and critiquing your prose.
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:27.920
Yeah.
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:34.880
So my writers do not swap work in the group coaching, but they do share their work with me privately.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:35.280
Right.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.360
And yeah, so those are the two ways.
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:57.920
And then the other way is the podcast, the Ride It Scared Podcast, which is really about kind of exposing the underbelly of the writing process, the hard parts, the disheartening parts, where I interview other authors who are willing to share a bit of that vulnerable experience and tell and share just how ugly those first drafts truly are.
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:01.679
So that it kind of normalizes the roller coaster for all of us.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:09.440
As well as focusing on craft and you know, living this messy experience as a as a human and a writer.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:14.719
It's it is crazy and messy, but I have to admit, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:23.280
It's I think you said at the top of the the call today that it's a really supportive environment and community to work in, and we couldn't be luckier.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:25.119
And what lovely offerings that you have.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.920
I like the sound of the small group, particularly that it's really small, four to six writers.
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.119
That sounds so lovely that you get the community in that.
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:38.719
I'm sure there'll be a few introverted writers as well going, Oh, and I don't have to share my work with the group.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.119
That will be uh a relief as well.
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:49.840
But knowing that you are there with your expertise, with your professionalism to come in and help guide them to tell their story the way that they want to tell it.
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.280
Yeah, I love that.
00:45:52.559 --> 00:46:09.039
We are coming to the end of our call, but just before we um say Cheerio, uh, you have very kindly have a free gift for our listeners, which is First Draft Confidence Workbook and Plan and Draft Your Novel Without the Guesswork, which I know will be music to many people's ears.
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:11.840
Um can you share a little bit about it?
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:44.079
Yeah, so it's a workbook that is designed to help you organize your thoughts, your ideas, think about maybe some of the ways that you know, your your perfectionism or procrastination, or just things that get in your way have shown up for you before and tools that you can use to remind yourself that this matters and this is important, and it's okay to take time for this, as well as how to start thinking about characters and storyline and develop a very high-level working outline.
00:46:44.320 --> 00:47:02.480
And right now, there's a free bonus webinar uh that comes with the email, and it's a 40-minute free webinar uh where I take you deeper into these concepts of the five elements of story and how to put that together into a high-level outline, and it also comes with its own workbook too.
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:06.079
So if you sign up for First Ref Confidence, then you get that as well.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:07.760
Wow, that's super generous.
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:08.320
Thank you.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:12.400
And people couldn't be in safer hands with you, so I hope they will go and grab it.
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:13.440
I'm sure they will.
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.440
Stacey, thank you so so much.
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:16.719
It's been a real pleasure.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:18.320
Yeah, same to you.
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:19.599
Thank you so much.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.519
Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:28.320
If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:29.920
And please leave a review.
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:36.719
Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories.
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:38.079
Let's lift each other up.
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.119
Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable.
00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:42.880
I'll see you next week.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:11.519
Process is not prescriptive and it's just about finding what works for you and practicing flexibility and some fluidity because what works for one book may not necessarily work for another book.
00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:22.320
But understanding the principles of story and storytelling and allowing a reader to experience that is very helpful to understand at the outset.
00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:25.280
Hey writer, welcome to the Write It Scared Podcast.
00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:26.879
I'm Stacy, your host.
00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:31.679
The podcast is on a break for the summer while I recharge and get ready for season four.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:33.920
But I didn't want to leave you hanging.
00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:43.039
Over the next couple months, I will be pulling some favorite solo episodes from the vault, episodes on craft, mindset, and just the messy reality of writing our books.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:49.200
Also, as a reminder, the Courage Files will remain open for submissions all summer long.
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:56.399
The Courage Files is a new segment launching on the podcast in season four where listeners share moments of writing courage, big or small.
00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:03.200
Maybe you finally figured out how to make a tricky scene work, or you finished your draft, or you shared your work.
00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:09.439
Maybe you returned to writing after a long time away, or you simply kept going when it would have been easier to quit.
00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:12.159
Whatever your moment looks like, I want to hear about it.
00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:17.200
And with your permission, share it on the podcast next season to help inspire other writers.
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:19.760
Because remember, we're in this together.
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:26.560
Every submission received this summer will be entered for a chance to win a free editorial assessment and book coaching session with me.
00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.319
And I'll announce the winner when season four kicks off this fall.
00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:37.280
To submit, go to writeitscared.co forward slash courage hyphen files, or you can find the link in the show notes.
00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:44.000
And if you're diving into planning or drafting a new novel this summer, grab my free novel quick start guide.
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:55.280
It's called First Draft Confidence, and it's designed to help you build a strong foundation for your story so that you can move into your first draft with more clarity, more confidence, and a whole lot less flailing.
00:01:55.680 --> 00:02:03.760
You can find the novel quick start guide at writeitscared.co forward slash novel planning guide, or you can also find the link for that in the show notes.
00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:08.159
All right, so let's get into today's episode, and I'll see you back for real in season four.
00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:09.280
Hi, writer.
00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.240
Welcome back to another episode of the Ride It Scared podcast.
00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:13.840
I'm your host, Stacey Fraser.
00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:18.960
And as you can tell, I don't have much of a voice today because I've come down with some crime cold.
00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:23.919
So I'm gonna try to save my voice for tomorrow when I meet with my clients, go over their submissions.
00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:30.560
And because of that, I didn't have it in me to record a solo episode for you for the corruption arc.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.840
And I don't think you really want to listen to me this way, anyway.
00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:46.639
So what I'm going to do instead is share the interview I did with Imadeshi from the Be a Bestseller Summit 6.0 Back to Basics event in January.
00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:59.919
And it was on how a writer can approach planning and outlining their novel in a way that would work for them, regardless of whether they were a pantser or a plotter.
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.120
So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:12.319
And when we come back for another craft chat, voice willing, we will talk about the corruption arc and then wrap up our character arc discussion with the static art.
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:16.560
So thank you very much for your patience and I hope you enjoy the interview.
00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:25.199
Hey everybody, and welcome back to another lovely interview with Be a Bestseller 6.0 back to basics.
00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.479
And today's guest is the lovely Stacy Fraser.
00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:34.400
Stacy is a formally repressed creative soul-turned fiction writer.
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:41.360
She's an author accelerator, certified book coach, and the host of the Write It Scared podcast.
00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:55.439
Her mission is to help beginning and struggling fiction writers overcome self-doubt, to find joy, and gain clarity and confidence in their process and craft so that they finish books they are proud of.
00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:06.960
When not writing, reading, or working with writers, you can find Stacy crafting with her daughter, hanging out with goats, of course, and on the trail with her goofy love pups.
00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:11.199
Today we're going to be talking about how to plan or outline your novel.
00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:12.639
But Stacy, welcome.
00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:14.000
So lovely to have you here.
00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:15.919
Thank you for having me, Emma.
00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.920
So I can't mention goats and not ask you about them.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.120
Do you have one goat, multiple goats?
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:25.680
No, you cannot have just one goat.
00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:27.600
They are parasocial creatures.
00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:30.720
If you have one goat, you will have a very lonely, sad goat.
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So no.
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I have five, six, seven now.
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That's little haired.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:38.959
You've got a little haired goat.
00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:40.480
I I do, I do.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:45.199
I've always been uh I have an affinity for dirt and animals as well as stories.
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.439
So I love that.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:52.879
I used to I used to milk them and make lotion and soap and all the things.
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And then when I had my daughter, just too many hobbies.
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So but they I love them and they are they they are now my pasture pets.
00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:02.800
Oh, lovely.
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:07.279
And are they as grumpy as we kind of led to believe they are, or are they quite quite cheerful?
00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:08.959
Very sweet.
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:13.040
Love it.
00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:25.040
Well, we are not here to talk about goats, unfortunately, but we are here to talk um about planning, plotting novels, getting things in shape, or thinking about things before we start doing the writing.
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:36.399
But just before we delve into that, I'd love it if you'd share with me and our audience a little bit about yourself and how you stopped being repressed and stepped into the to the writing world.
00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:37.360
Yeah.
00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:39.120
Well, I love that question.
00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:45.600
And I always find a find it's hard for me to answer in just like a small nugget, but I'll do, I'll do my best.
00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:52.639
I grew up believing that creativity was not for me and that I did not have a place in that kind of world.
00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:58.720
And I pursued a very linear education and career path, and I chose a lot of I should do.
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:01.279
I should do this, I should do that.
00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:07.839
And that led me to degrees in economics and in medicine, and I practiced medicine for 10 years as a physician assistant.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.120
And as in story, you know, our stories are about characters' internal journeys.
00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:19.839
I my internal self was rubbing up against this world I had created, and I was very unhappy.
00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:25.439
And no dirty details, but there came a point when the rubber met the road and I had to do some changing.
00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.600
And through that, I leaned into stories again.
00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.680
And really, that is probably where I discovered the power of story.
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Story truly has the power to change and shape lives and save them.
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And it's no stretch to say that it saved mine.
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:52.879
And so hearing other people's stories, reading other people's stories, fiction or nonfiction, is a way to create empathy for yourself and compassion for yourself as well as others in your community.
00:06:53.120 --> 00:07:03.759
So that is I started writing, did not know a thing, and you know, expected it to be good, that it was not good at all.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.759
But I really, you know, I took time and hell of a lot of therapy.
00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:16.720
But I came to the place where I believe that, you know, my voice is as unique as yours, as unique as the others, and we all have something to say.
00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:27.120
And if we want to say it in whatever manner, in long-form fiction, which happens to be mine, uh, then we can learn the tools that we need to be able to do that.
00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.800
Yes, and that is oh, so many good, good things in there.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.639
I think you you had your own inciting incident, which then changed things and moved you into fiction.
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:49.279
And I think that happens for a lot of us who have taken that sort of more scenic route towards writing and storytelling, that's something happens in our lives that makes us kind of think, do you know what?
00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:58.720
I've got to do this, I've got to make shake things up, I've got to change things so that I feel fulfilled or what was important isn't quite as important as it once was.
00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.920
And actually, particularly for us women, there comes a point where we think, maybe I'm allowed to do this for myself.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:12.720
Even if I never publish, even if I never become a bestseller, this is a joy for me and it it's fulfilling and it calms my brain and balances everything out for me.
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:14.399
So I'm going to be allowed to do it.
00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.600
So I thank you for sharing that with us.
00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:27.839
I love too that you mentioned the idea of this story being it's it's about compassion, it's about people, it's about learning.
00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.079
And I 100% agree.
00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:39.200
I don't think we fully understand actually when we're when we're simply readers, when we're we're not thinking about this from the creative side of it, but the consumer side.
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:57.759
I don't think we always understand just how much novels do have an impact on us and how we view the world and that we live vicariously through a character and sort of almost unknowingly it it can help us see the world differently and be kind of more open to things we might not have been beforehand.
00:08:59.440 --> 00:08:59.919
Right.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:00.399
Yeah.
00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:02.000
So I love that you've mentioned that.
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:10.320
And then finally, the thing that I did appreciate you pointing out is that your voice is unique as my voice, as unique as anybody else's.
00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:16.240
And I know that's something that a lot of writers worry about is what have I got to say?
00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:18.639
Do I have a special enough way of saying it?
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.080
My vocabulary is not big enough or I'm not well read enough.
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.799
But an analogy or an example I often used is, you know, our fingertips.
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.440
We each have our own fingerprint, and that is unique.
00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:38.720
And it's as unique as the experiences we bring to our story, and whatever words we choose, whatever vocabulary we use, it's unique and it ours.
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:42.960
And so I'm really glad that you you mentioned for our listeners.
00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:51.200
So, but let's dive into our topic, shall we, about planning and plotting and preparing ourselves for this book.
00:09:51.519 --> 00:10:03.519
And I know that one of the steps, and maybe some would say might be the most important step, but certainly one of the primary steps is that idea of what's going up in your head, you know, where we're at up there.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:11.360
And so mindset, I think, possibly is is one of the steps that that you you believe in and having that as being as part of your preparation.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:12.080
Yeah.
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:16.080
And before I go there, I'll just say that this is not prescriptive.
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.039
It's really process is not prescriptive.
00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:33.919
And it's just about finding what works for you, taking what you like, molding it into a process that's, you know, works for you and practicing flexibility and some fluidity because what works for one book may not necessarily work for another book.
00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:44.559
But understanding the principles of story and storytelling and allowing a reader to experience that is very helpful to understand at the outset.
00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.480
But having said that, not prescriptive, there's no one way to write a novel.
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.639
So, and and certainly I'm not going to talk about an exhaustive outlining process today.
00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.120
So if you're a panther or a discovery writer, you're safe and it's okay.
00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:06.720
But yeah, so mindset, I always invite writers to think about the relationship they want to have with the creative work, especially if this is your first or maybe second time.
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:11.840
I mean, welcome, welcome to the madness and the magic that is, you know, writing a novel.
00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:20.480
You can be thrilled in one second and miserable the next because you just realize the thing you discovered just created an entire plot tangle for you someplace else.
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:32.720
So, and I and I just want to encourage people to find the communities and the pockets and the places because this is that that resonate with them because this is a very warm and inclusive place.
00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:34.080
I didn't know that.
00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.600
I didn't believe that when I first got here, but I have come to learn that.
00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.480
So, yes, mindset.
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.639
One, I think setting your expectations up from the get-go is really important.
00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:46.960
Nobody writes a perfect novel in one shot.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.159
Nobody edits everything perfectly on the first pass.
00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:51.519
This is messy.
00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:56.799
And it, it really probably doesn't necessarily get less messy.
00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:02.879
You get more, maybe more efficient and better at handling the mess as you practice.
00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.519
And that's another thing is that writing is a practice.
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:13.360
And this is a practice where we will pursue it and no one really will ever master it entirely because it evolves and it changes with the times.
00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:16.639
And it's as unique to you or me or anybody else.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.240
So, yeah, just grounding yourself in your expectations, thinking about it as a learning experience.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:25.039
You don't have to do it perfectly in one shot.
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.759
Thinking that you will or that you will be the exception will create pain.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.200
And, you know, it's not just a one and done either.
00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.279
You can't just say, okay, well, I'm gonna have a positive mindset here and a learning mindset.
00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:45.440
It creeps in the inner critic, the procrastination, the perfectionistic tendencies, those things will creep in, the comparison will creep in.
00:12:45.519 --> 00:13:01.840
So cultivating a level of self-awareness as you're planning, developing your story, as you're writing, as you're editing, and doing some self-checks, be like talking to that negative piece, the negative voice on the shoulder, and being like, I don't, I don't need this right now.
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:02.879
And just know that it's normal.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:04.720
It doesn't make you bad, good, or indifferent.
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:05.919
It's just we all have it.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:14.799
So keep your expectations low, embrace a spirit of exploration, of creativity.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:19.600
And when you find that you're frustrated, it's a good time to pause.
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:21.679
You don't have to write every day.
00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.399
You don't have to so that's an interesting thing to to bring up.
00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:27.759
So many good things in there.
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:37.279
I think the the cultivating this, the curiosity that there's a practice that we are never going to know all of this, the same with any art form.
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.679
You never entirely master it.
00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:42.799
There's always an evolution for every writer.
00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.480
But so let me ask you though, about that idea of writing every day.
00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.559
Is that something that you feel because it's quite contentious, I think.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:01.200
Some people think, yes, you do need to do this because this is how you develop your practice and this is how you you develop your process as well, and it gets you into the routine of it and it takes away the pressure.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:06.639
And then others will be like, well, no, it adds the pressure, and it's, you know, you don't need to write every day.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:14.799
So do you fit into kind of one of those camps, or what have you noticed with the people, either in your own writing experience or with the people that you work with?
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:17.679
It depends on the writer.
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:22.480
You know, discipline is discipline, but it can be facilitated in different ways.
00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:26.639
So I encourage writers to show up for their story.
00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:34.399
And some writers need to be able to breathe a little bit and think about things and and noodle.
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.279
Other writers do better if they come to the page and they type.
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.200
They noodle as they type.
00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.080
You know, so it just depends on the person.
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:59.440
You know, at the end of the day, if we're talking about goals here and we're trying to align our intentions and our actions with our goals, and we're not meeting those, then we need to look at the process that's shaping them and make adjustments.
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:02.879
There is no one size fits all.
00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:09.360
Part of the job of being a writer, particularly those early books, is you finding your process, I think.
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:14.480
And that can be as equally fr frustrating as putting the words on the page as well.
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:20.879
Because one of the things you just said earlier was that actually the process for every book can be a bit different as well.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:23.279
It's not just a one-and-done thing.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:30.799
And I think that's really important for our newer writers listening to know that that it's a constantly evolving thing.
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.399
And just when you think you've nailed it, something might shift a little bit.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.039
And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:38.159
Yeah, exactly.
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.120
There's anything wrong with you, the writer or the story.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:47.360
I mean, oh, it's just the the nature of this bizarre world we've chosen to kind of immerse ourselves in.
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:57.679
Okay, so say we've got, you know, feeling good about it, we're feeling we've got the our expectations at the right level, and we want to start moving forward.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.480
So we might be a writer who's got an idea.
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:06.320
How do we start to take that idea and then and start shaping it into something that might be workable?
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:07.600
Yeah.
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:13.120
So, you know, in the beginning, I said, you know, there's no prescriptive advice here.
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:18.240
You can start any way you want, and ideas come from different, all kinds of an amalgam of different places.
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.360
Having said that, I think it's really good to understand some basic fundamentals about story.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:29.279
Most of us assume we know what a story is because we've been steeped in it our whole lives.
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.240
Uh, but when we sit down to write one, it's a little different.
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:36.639
So understanding what a story is, it's not just a sequence of events.
00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.759
It's not just something that happens to someone.
00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:43.440
It's not, you know, it doesn't have to be big or dramatic.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:49.120
Uh, what it needs to accomplish is delivering an emotional experience to the reader.
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:50.960
That's truly what a story is.
00:16:51.120 --> 00:17:08.000
And the way that it does that, the mechanism that it does that through is by anchoring into a character and demonstrating change, either change within the character or because of the character, there is change experienced in the world and the society of the story.
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:19.279
So that's really what we have to remember is that we are shaping a collection of events to create change that resonates emotionally with the reader.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:37.920
So I think what I'm hearing you say then is that a plot line, what actually happens in the story, that is not separate from the change that a character goes through in, but actually they're they're interconnected and so one impacts the other.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.039
Absolutely.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.799
If you just take it up super high level, what is a story?
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:48.880
Story is something that once it occurs, the change is permanent.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:50.400
Right?
00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:54.960
It can never the life as we know it can never go back to the way it was.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:55.599
Why?
00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:11.359
Because of the interpersonal transformation of the character or that character stayed true to their beliefs and values, and because of that made difficult decisions and the world around them changed.
00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:12.799
So it is interconnected.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.400
The character and the plot are intimately interconnected.
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.079
You cannot have one without the other.
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:20.559
They truly drive each other.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:29.920
So then the other piece, once you kind of have that idea, is like I'm creating a change that is linked to a character or cast of characters in this world.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.680
The next thing you want to think about is okay, how do I deliver this emotional experience?
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:35.279
And that is where structure comes in.
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:42.559
So understanding that structure, because you're, you know, you're trying to drive this thing to a satisfying ending for your reader.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.160
Structure is the vehicle that will allow you to do that.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:55.519
And I like to think of it as the scaffolding that supports the roller coaster ride, the journey that the character and thereby the reader is going to take.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.400
And it's not formulaic.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:18:59.440
And I used to think it was.
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.559
And I was very like, I just re-embrace my creativity.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.960
I don't want anybody telling me what to do.
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:10.319
But I learned that there is a rhythm to it and a reason for it.
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:17.759
And so it creates that satisfying emotional ending, regardless of whether that is positive or negative.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.440
So understanding, and there's many, many different types of story structure out there.
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:27.599
And if you're a new writer stepping into this as your first or second book, and maybe you're trying to decide between what do I use?
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.559
No, three act, four act, W plot, save the cat, what whatever hero's journey.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:33.359
Pick one.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:35.519
Just pick one.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:36.880
Don't mix and match.
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.599
Just pick one that resonates with you that you like, because really they are all saying the same thing.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.720
They are all showing you how to create this transformation.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.200
And they might just be using different terminology.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.119
And so it's easy to get confused.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:54.160
So just pick one and understand that's the vehicle that's going to drive your bus to finish.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.119
I'm so glad you said that because you that absolutely reminds me of me.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:05.519
A number of years ago when I did think that all of these different structures were different.
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:12.400
And that's it took me a long time to realize that they were all talking about the same thing, but just using different terminology.
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:16.799
And I remember feeling it narrows the canon when you realize that.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:18.559
Yeah.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:28.000
You know, really in Western society, all of that really is it doesn't matter if it's the W plot or the Save the Cat or the Hero's journey.
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.039
It comes in like this three-piece mechanism, right?
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:40.240
We have beginning, we have begin beginning, middle, and and so all of that terminology, all of those plot points that they're talking about fits into that structure.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:40.799
Yeah.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:55.200
So yeah, so it's kind of just like how however the writer's brain works and what words resonate most and the kind of ways the way the the teacher talks about it, if that resonates with you and makes sense to your your creative brain, then go with that one.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.720
But yeah, it just it was I just laughed at myself and I realized, oh, it's all the same thing.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:01.200
Okay.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:02.480
Who do I resonate with?
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.400
And we're not like we're not making this up.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:05.920
This is backed by neuroscience.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:20.000
And for writers, like two really excellent resources to learn about how a human's brain interacts with story and why we are interested in the experience of being in a story.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.160
It's all back to our neurobiology.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:23.680
It's all back to survival.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:25.920
It's all linked to our lizard brain.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.640
But those resources are wired for story and story genius, both by Lisa Cron.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:31.920
Highly recommend them.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:32.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.000
I love Story Genius.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.160
It's one of my go-tos, absolutely.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:38.880
Especially in that planning stage.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:48.799
And one of the questions that she asks, and we're both author accelerator trained, so is something that comes up for both of us is why does the story matter to you?
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:58.400
And I think that is I think that is actually one of the parts of the planning that we need to do, which I didn't always see.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
And I wonder if you could speak into that.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.359
A little bit about why, and one of the questions we get we ask our clients is why does the story matter to you?
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.279
Why are you the person to tell it?
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:12.480
And that is quite a question that can stump you, you know, can can really confuse a lot of people.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:21.839
I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about that and from your own experience, maybe how you found it benefits your own storytelling, but also those of your clients.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.759
Well, I think again, it depends on the person.
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:31.119
Some people come in and they have an idea and they have a reason for that idea.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:32.720
Other people do not.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:45.920
And they, you know, they just they want to write something that is light and fun and exciting, and they haven't anchored into the internal experience that they're thinking about, that they're they're thinking about showing within the story for the character.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.039
And that's fine.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.920
So I keep it very high and very light.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.960
You know, what is it that interests you about this idea or this, you know, this scenario?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.440
What are you interested in exploring?
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:05.039
And if it's high and it's light and we haven't touched, we haven't really dug into the dirt yet, we leave it there and we explore some other elements of the story.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:13.920
And when we get to talking about, okay, so at the end of the day, what do you think your reader, what do you want, what kind of feeling do you want to leave your reader with?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.920
Then we come back to the why.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.279
Okay, but why does that matter?
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.079
So you want to write a hopeful story about love and connection.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:21.200
Why does that matter?
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:22.640
And so we come back to that.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:29.680
And the reason that we do is because writing a book takes a long, damn time, right?
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:37.519
So you're gonna be in this for a while, a year, maybe three, maybe five.
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:38.799
It just depends.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.400
Because again, this is a learning process.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:46.240
And if this is your first or second novel, you're learning a ton of stuff, it's and juggling a lot.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:24:05.359
So if you are intimately connected to the reason behind that story, when it gets discouraging and when it gets hard, because it will, going back into that piece of why it matters to you can be really helpful.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:10.720
And remembering that you don't have to do it right, you don't have to get it all done all perfectly in one shot.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.359
Stories are made in layers, lots of layers.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.000
The first layers we put down, they're not pretty.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:17.200
They're not supposed to be.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:18.880
It's like painting a fence, right?
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.359
Like the first coat, there's tons of holes.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:22.640
You can still see the wood.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:29.440
But over time, you know, it gets better and better and better until we have something that we're like, whoa, that's a really nice fence.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:29.759
Yeah.
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.000
So, yeah, so it just depends.
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:38.000
And then the other question of like, why are you the person to tell this story?
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:45.599
That is a heavy weight of frame, I think, what that question is trying to get at.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:51.200
And what I like to ask instead is how are you connected?
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:52.640
I like that.
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.359
How are you connected to this personal?
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.799
And usually people are.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.519
We're not writing about stuff we don't care about.
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:01.839
Yeah, it's so true, isn't it?
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.119
Because when we think about it as writers, there's we get a thousand ideas a day about what could be a story, what could be a story.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:21.519
But out of those hundreds of thousands of ideas that we get, there's only a very few that really stick with us that we think, ah, yeah, this might have legs, this might be something I could really do something with.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:26.000
And it's the idea that won't let us go and keeps coming back and keeps coming back.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:37.920
And I think that question, the those sort of two questions that we've been discussing are getting to the root of, well, why is it this story idea that won't let you go and keeps niggling away at you until you bite it?
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.599
So often, yeah, there there is that, there is that connection.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.200
That's a great way of saying it.
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:49.440
There is that connection, but we're we're not always conscious of it or found a way of articulating it when we store it.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:50.319
Yeah.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:50.960
Yeah.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:52.559
Lovely.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:54.079
Okay, so this is great.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:01.920
So we're we're kind of doing this sort of pre-thinking, if you like, about why the story matters, why we want to um to write it.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.640
We've looked at some of the elements of story as well.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.240
So we've touched on structure.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.640
Was there anything else that you wanted to kind of touch on with that in terms of?
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:48.559
Um well, I I think that again, so understanding what a story is, understanding the mechanism that you're gonna deliver the story through is structure, and then thinking about the elements that go into that, the components, which it doesn't matter like how you approach them or what in what order, but those are thinking about the setting, like where and when is this story gonna take place, and considering any world-building aspects that you need to dig into and how can where and when the story takes place add tension and conflict to the plot, to the story.
00:26:48.799 --> 00:27:04.640
Characters clearly thinking about who the story will will, you know, be driven by and what do they want, what do they value, what do they believe, and most importantly, how will they change through the experience of the story?
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.319
And you may not know that.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.799
You may not know, I mean, it's hard to, you know, bring people out of the ether.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:24.079
But if you if you have an idea of who they are at one point or other, one side of the story or the other, then you can either go forward and kind of think, okay, well, what's the inverse in either direction?
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:28.160
Like I have a, I want them to and in a place of happiness and hope.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:34.720
Well, perhaps at the start of the story they think their life is just fine and they don't need anybody, so they're disillusioned.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:39.359
Or perhaps they feel like they're undeserving of love, right?
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.000
So you can kind of work backwards from there.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:46.240
But whatever makes them engage into the story has got to come with cost.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:51.279
So you have to remember to build in these stakes, which is the why does it matter?
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.720
And it always has to matter.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.480
If your character could say no and nothing happens, it's not a story.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.640
Uh, say that again, for us.
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:06.480
If your character could say no and nothing happens to them because they say no, no, thank you.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.680
I don't want to engage, then it's not a story.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:14.559
There has to be something hanging in the balance for them.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.119
And that has to increase as the story goes forward.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.359
So now we're talking about conflict, right?
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:27.200
So that brings in conflict, and conflict is your antagonistic force, right?
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:31.359
Whatever is opposing your character, your character needs to want something.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.759
They need to want it badly at some point.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.720
They may not be aware of it at the very beginning of the story.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.680
They need to see that they want it badly, and then there's got to be something in their way.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:51.519
And so them crashing up against that antagonistic force in the context of the world that you created will create your plot.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:59.119
And will we and a plot is just a sequence of events that create change, micro changes throughout the story.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:04.000
The the antagonism that you mentioned there, the antagonistic force, is that always a person?
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.559
You know, is that the our antagonist?
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.079
Not necessarily.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.599
No, an antagonistic force.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:23.839
It can be external, it can be another character, it can be something in the world, it can be society, it can be a host, a host of things, but it is a form of oppression against the protagonist's desires.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.039
And it can also be the protagonists themselves.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:29.519
The character themselves can get in their own way.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:34.480
And oftentimes, really good story is made out of both, right?
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:59.039
There's external opposing forces, and then the character has internal, has an internal struggle that is keeping them from developing as a human, uh, as a person, and whether or not I kind of like to think of it as like they there's a lesson in the story, and the character either learns it and becomes better because of it, or they don't and they they're worse off.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:11.200
Also, you can have what we call a steadfast or a flat character where that person doesn't change, but their value systems are challenged throughout the story because of the conflict in the world that you've created.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:18.880
And their job is usually to stay true to those values and make difficult decisions and not take the easy path.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.240
Right.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.799
And then and then because of their actions, they wind up changing the world around them.
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.680
You know, they either save the world or they shift societal views or something like that.
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:30.160
Yeah.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:39.279
So is that kind of flat arc then would that be something, you know, like Jason Bourne or like probably James Bond is a better example where Yeah.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:42.240
So I think a really good example is like Katniss Everdeen.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:44.319
Katniss Everdeen is from The Hunger Game.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:45.839
She has a pretty steadfast arc.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.839
Internally, she does not change a whole lot.
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.160
She does change a little, but not a whole lot.
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:58.160
But she is challenged to she has the opportunity to do the wrong thing or the right thing multiple times throughout the story.
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:08.319
And it is her character and value system that keeps her making difficult decisions, not just to save her life, but to attempt to save other people's lives and work together.
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:25.519
And and yeah, so she's willing to make those sacrifices, then she shows, you know, that a villain can be defeated or at least outsmarted temporarily, and also that sacrifice there are more important things than just surviving.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.119
Yes, yeah.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.039
Yeah, she does make a lot of tough decisions.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.880
She's definitely a tougher cookie than I am.
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.559
I think I would have taken the easier route out than her.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:38.160
My story would not have been as compelling if I beated that.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:42.160
But that that actually brings you to the theme of the story.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.440
And that's the last element that you want to really think about in this melting pot, right?
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:58.880
So, I mean, you've got your setting, you've got your character, you've got your conflict and your plots, and then your theme, which is kind of the general message that the story is speaking to.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:05.519
I it draw it, it it's inner, it's messy, it's interconnected to all of these other things.
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:12.160
And it's I, you know, some some writers really need to anchor into that to be able to create their story.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:13.759
I am one of those writers.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:19.440
And it usually starts out as a question of what does it cost to live a lie?
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.119
And then it becomes something, a concrete statement.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.599
It costs your dignity, it costs everything, right?
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:28.079
And so that's the thing that I'm proving in the story.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:35.680
But it's very high level and it usually speaks to the character's journey, like whatever the change was that they experienced or the lesson of the story.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:40.400
It's not something we hit our readers over the head with, but it's an essence that can be extrapolated.
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.960
Once you put the book down, she's like, what did that?
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:48.480
So I don't put a whole ton of weight on it in the beginning when we're planning a book.
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:54.319
But if you if you dig into your characters and you trust your conflict, I think it emerges.
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:55.440
Yes, yeah.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.720
Theme is such is a a nuanced one, I always think.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.759
So sorry, just outline those those elements for us again.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:08.079
We had setting, character, character, character and character arc, right?
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:08.799
How they change.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.880
Conflict, plot, theme.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.839
Pain theme.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:16.480
Theme.
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:19.759
Pain Yes, that will work also.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:36.960
So these, so for just thinking about our listeners here who might be who might be writing their first book, and this might feel like a lot of things to kind of think about up front, and they may be saying, But I'm not a plotter, I'm a pantser.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.160
Do you feel that these are things we can come to over time?
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.680
You mentioned the word layering earlier, is that kind of things that we can layer in?
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:55.440
Or do you feel actually is quite it's it serves the writer to really think about these things up front, even if they don't have a concrete answer to everything?
00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:58.720
Again, it it depends on the writer.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:08.000
But what I do think you you have to appreciate and accept is I believe that a book takes a certain amount of energy.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:15.280
You know, and where how that energy is distributed depends on the writer.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:25.679
But people who enjoy spending time up front thinking about these elements, right, and noodling around these things, they're gonna spend a lot of time and energy there.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:31.840
And the drafting will be a little more streamlined for them, as probably will the revision.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:42.960
Now, writers who do not enjoy noodling these things out front, and they like to be in the page and on the line and creating as they go, fine also.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:51.360
But eventually you'll have to pull up and get a high-level view and be thinking about these elements because they exist in all story.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:57.519
And so eventually, you know, you're gonna have to pull them in and then you're gonna have to make sense of them.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:04.079
And that is all fine, but the but the heavy lifting and the energy may come later in in the story process.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.519
The sort, you know, the it may it might come in revision.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:13.280
You know, some people I have written books where I don't think about any of this stuff, not really.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.039
I that's not sorting out.
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:23.519
I think that is something that when we're that excitement that comes, we want to write that first book, we just want to do it and we get on with it.
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.719
Might do a little bit of pre-thinking, but the excitement takes over.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:36.719
And then I think there's maybe like this shift that happens once we sort of decide we make that move from this is a hobby to, ooh, I'd actually like to publish this book.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.440
And then we start thinking more and more in-depth about the story that we're writing.
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:47.760
So if if anyone's listening and they haven't thought about these things, you know, that that's perfectly normal as well.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:48.880
Yes, it is.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:51.679
And my catalyst was pain, really.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.880
It was it was because I got the got to the end of a book and went, what did I write?
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:02.880
And then uh had to go in and learn these elements and then, you know, redraft.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.360
And and the revision took a long time.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.719
So, you know, I thought to myself, man, maybe if I think about these things up front, it'll be easier and more efficient.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:29.519
And today I've developed a system for myself that works where I do some planning, not a ton, and I get my get myself to a place where I at least I know the conflict, I know what the challenges are gonna be, and I know why this is going to challenge my character.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.880
And I have an idea of how I want them to change.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.920
I cannot see very far into the story.
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:43.840
I can only usually see the beginning, and then it's like, you know, yeah, panting from there.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.239
So it's kind of an amalgam, you know?
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:52.159
So do you plan as far as head as say that you know what the inciting incident is going to be?
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.719
Or is even that sometimes a surprise?
00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:07.679
Yeah, and for anybody who doesn't know, an inciting incident is you have a character who is in a status, their their status quo, they're normal, and the inciting incident is the very first disruption to their world, and it can be positive or negative.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:19.840
Yes, I typically know the inciting incident, and I also know what I like to call like the choice and the jump into the second act of the story where they make that decision to step into a whole new world.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:25.760
For example, this is where just real super simple like your character stumbles across the body.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.239
That's the whoa, this person was murdered.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:35.119
And then, you know, a little more information is revealed to them, and they're like, oh, I'm I think I'm the only person that can solve this.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:40.000
But to do it, I'm gonna have to step into this whole world that I don't know.
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:45.440
That would be an example of now I am in the story, which we also call the promise of the premise, right?
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.039
The reason that we're reading the experience that we're coming to the table for of this amateur sleuth, right?
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:51.360
Yeah.
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:53.599
So that would just be simple example.
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:54.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:16.400
And then most of the time I know my middle ish-I at least I try to find that what we call a reversal where something is revealed, the the true scope of the conflict is typically revealed to the protagonist.
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:22.320
And in in your when you research story structure, you'll find that they call it a false victory or false defeat.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:34.719
It can be those, it doesn't have to be, but something and it doesn't have to be big or dynamic, but it has to be eye-opening to the protagonist.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:37.039
Sometimes I know that, sometimes I don't.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:38.960
And I never really ended.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.840
But a mad men when you write suspense.
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:44.559
Yeah.
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:54.159
Well, do you know I I'm amazed the amount of writers I've listened to and like big names who write thriller, suspense, crime, they don't know who did it either.
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:55.760
And so that always gives me hope.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:59.679
And I think, okay, it this is a sort of intuitive thing as we go along for a long.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.920
I anchor into that with all my heart.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:14.559
But in each of those, you know, you're talking about the inciting incident, and and then that that's you had a phrase for it that you but that kind of moment where something is revealed, it's maybe the second plot point where something is revealed.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:29.360
Uh those are moments where they have to be, am I right in thinking, they've got to be uh sufficiently important that the character can't say no, they've got to make a choice, they can't say no in their life carry on as normal.
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.639
This is gonna change the story in some way, shape, or form.
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:33.440
Yeah.
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:41.679
I think if you lean on a couple of things, whether you're planning or you're actually you're you're you know, you're noodling and planning or you're actually drafting.
00:39:41.920 --> 00:40:03.440
If you lean on always making your character make a tough decision and that there is follow-through and sometimes fallout because of that decision, you will naturally give yourself forward momentum in your plots, even if you don't know these terms, inciting incident, you know, first turning point, all the things, right?
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:18.159
If you lean on make them make decisions in service to their goals, or at least desire to make decisions in service to their goals, even if they're strapped down and they can't do anything, right?
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:20.400
Have them thinking about the plan.
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:31.840
If you, if you do that and then build in the the cost, it you you're naturally gonna give what we call the story narrative drive or plot thrust, right?
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:33.119
Forward momentum.
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:36.639
And that comes, that stems from character agency.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:43.360
And sometimes also, like if you get stuck in your plot and you're like, ugh, I don't know what happens next.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:41:01.519
If you think outside your character and into the scope of your ancillary characters, and you start thinking about your side characters or what the antagonistic force is doing, if it's a character or a sentient being, then that can help you put more pressure on the protagonist and force them into an uncomfortable choice again.
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:02.159
Right.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:08.239
So, but in general, in general, thinking about stories like we've got a beginning.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:18.079
We have somebody who's maybe not comfortable, but they are in a known situation and known world, and they may want something or they may want nothing to change.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:23.840
And then we disrupt them, and from that disruption, it triggers them to have a desire, a new want.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:30.320
They will either want to put things back in order or they're gonna want more of the good thing that just came to them, right?
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:39.760
So they will take action in service to the goals, but it won't be easy, and that's the job of the writer is like, don't make it easy, always make it harder.
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.679
And so that's one of the ways that we can then build that plot.
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:51.119
You know, and then so that we can pull it all together at the end, hopefully, and right.
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.599
And so, I mean, naturally, things will come to you.
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:59.360
I mean, if you're writing a story, I mean, just and that's where you use your world and your setting in the situation.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:04.079
I mean, if you have uh somebody who wants to play in the NBA, well, there's gonna be a tryout, right?
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:08.159
There's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be other players to contend with.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:09.599
There's gonna be competition.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:13.280
So you're building that it kind of comes organically.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:16.480
It's quite messy, but it does come.
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:23.199
Just keep your character making decisions and remember that because they made that decision, this is the next thing that happens.
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:27.119
Anytime something that happens in the story, use that because of that.
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:31.280
My character realizes desires, wants, takes action.
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:31.760
Yeah.
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:33.119
That will help you a lot.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:39.920
I I think that when you hear writers say the story kind of wrote itself, I think that's the sort of thing they're referring to.
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:55.360
It's not that this there's some magical voice came down and and told them what to write, but understanding how to put that plot line together and how the conflict forces the characters to make a decision that whatever the decision is, that then drives the plot forward.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.239
And and then, as you say, organic, messy, but we can organically come together.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:03.519
So I've always make good decisions, and that is okay.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:04.159
Yeah.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:05.440
Wow.
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.360
Stacey, we have covered an awful, awful lot in our our conversation today.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:23.280
But I I think it really is going to give people a really solid start to how they might want to think about planning or plotting a novel, no matter how their process is, whether they consider themselves cancers or plotters.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:28.480
But I'd like to for you just to share a little bit about how you work with writers.
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:32.960
How do you help writers write their first or second or third book?
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:51.199
Yeah, so I work with writers either in small group coaching environments where there's you know four to six writers at a time, and we create like a cohesive little community of support and camaraderie while they're learning the principles of story and begin developing their draft.
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:56.159
And then I and I also work with people one on one as well.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.280
And so it's very much the same process.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:07.599
Whether you enjoy being in a group coaching environment or you prefer being one-on-one.
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:21.920
The one thing that I feel very strongly about is in a group setting, writing a new brand new novel, especially if you're fairly new to this and you're drafting, it is not a time for critique from peers.
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:27.599
It's not the time for people to be looking at your lines and critiquing your prose.
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:27.920
Yeah.
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:34.880
So my writers do not swap work in the group coaching, but they do share their work with me privately.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:35.280
Right.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.360
And yeah, so those are the two ways.
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:57.920
And then the other way is the podcast, the Ride It Scared Podcast, which is really about kind of exposing the underbelly of the writing process, the hard parts, the disheartening parts, where I interview other authors who are willing to share a bit of that vulnerable experience and tell and share just how ugly those first drafts truly are.
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:01.679
So that it kind of normalizes the roller coaster for all of us.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:09.440
As well as focusing on craft and you know, living this messy experience as a as a human and a writer.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:14.719
It's it is crazy and messy, but I have to admit, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:23.280
It's I think you said at the top of the the call today that it's a really supportive environment and community to work in, and we couldn't be luckier.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:25.119
And what lovely offerings that you have.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.920
I like the sound of the small group, particularly that it's really small, four to six writers.
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.119
That sounds so lovely that you get the community in that.
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:38.719
I'm sure there'll be a few introverted writers as well going, Oh, and I don't have to share my work with the group.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.119
That will be uh a relief as well.
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:49.840
But knowing that you are there with your expertise, with your professionalism to come in and help guide them to tell their story the way that they want to tell it.
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.280
Yeah, I love that.
00:45:52.559 --> 00:46:09.039
We are coming to the end of our call, but just before we um say Cheerio, uh, you have very kindly have a free gift for our listeners, which is First Draft Confidence Workbook and Plan and Draft Your Novel Without the Guesswork, which I know will be music to many people's ears.
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:11.840
Um can you share a little bit about it?
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:44.079
Yeah, so it's a workbook that is designed to help you organize your thoughts, your ideas, think about maybe some of the ways that you know, your your perfectionism or procrastination, or just things that get in your way have shown up for you before and tools that you can use to remind yourself that this matters and this is important, and it's okay to take time for this, as well as how to start thinking about characters and storyline and develop a very high-level working outline.
00:46:44.320 --> 00:47:02.480
And right now, there's a free bonus webinar uh that comes with the email, and it's a 40-minute free webinar uh where I take you deeper into these concepts of the five elements of story and how to put that together into a high-level outline, and it also comes with its own workbook too.
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:06.079
So if you sign up for First Ref Confidence, then you get that as well.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:07.760
Wow, that's super generous.
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:08.320
Thank you.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:12.400
And people couldn't be in safer hands with you, so I hope they will go and grab it.
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:13.440
I'm sure they will.
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.440
Stacey, thank you so so much.
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:16.719
It's been a real pleasure.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:18.320
Yeah, same to you.
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:19.599
Thank you so much.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.519
Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:28.320
If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:29.920
And please leave a review.
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:36.719
Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories.
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:38.079
Let's lift each other up.
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.119
Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable.
00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:42.880
I'll see you next week.
