Applying Systems Thinking to Safety

WEBVTT
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So one of the things that systems thinking provides is an ability for us to
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understand that relationships that are there.
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An example that I would use from a systems thinking perspective is that an owner
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may say that safety is a number one priority in our organization, right?
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But if you would ask around to individuals within the organization,
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they might have a different understanding of that statement.
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They might doubt it. They might believe that it's true. It depends upon who
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it is. And that's because when we make a statement like that,
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safety is a priority at our company, it's really the name of a system.
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It's going to have parts. There's going to be evidence of it being there.
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And if it is a priority in our organization, we're going to have those parts
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identified and we're going to really understand what that means.
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And if they're not there, then that system is undeclared and ambiguous so that
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people are going to have a different idea of what that means when they're looking at it.
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They're either going to say it's true or not true, and it's all going to have
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to do with how that system is made up of what parts are there and what relationships are there.
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Welcome to the Safety Leadership Collective podcast. We hope you enjoyed today's featured message.
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Welcome, everyone, to the Safety Leadership Collective podcast channel hosted
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by Portage County Safety Council.
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My name is Nick Coya, and I am excited to be here today talking about a new
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and interesting subject for our listeners.
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We have a Safety Council steering member who has been with us for a little time
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and did a recent presentation on systems thinking.
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And it had Mike and I talking and thinking about how we manage not only work,
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but personal lives and the systems that exist.
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And said, man, this would be a great piece to bring to our podcast channel,
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to our listeners, to really give you a new tool for your toolbox when you look
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at systems in your organizations.
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So joining us today is Lori Fisher from Systems Thinking Standard Institute.
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Lori, welcome to the show today.
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Well, thanks a lot, Nick. It's great to be here. I'm so excited to have you
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with us today and talking about systems thinking and really diving into A,
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what that is, and B, how it works in safety and health.
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But before we do that, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
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What's your background and how did you end up doing this and talking about systems thinking?
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So my first senior leadership role was at a biochemical company and we were
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growing like gangbusters.
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We were just killing it, doing really well. The owner said that we were a technical
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company, and me as the technical services manager, it was appropriate for me
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to be involved in anything.
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And so he would dispatch me across the organization from receipts to sales.
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And I don't know whether it was the chicken or the egg, but I developed a structured
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protocol for addressing any situation that could bring about resolution and
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also bring about strategic value to the organization.
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And I carry that forward in my career.
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And then I, you know, moved into consulting. Of course, that worked real well for that as well.
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And then about a year after I started my consulting firm, PLS Management Consulting,
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I was approached by the Systems Thinking Standard Institute to join their startup.
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And that is out of Ithaca, New York, with, you know, roots in Cornell University.
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And it's led by Dr. Sterrick and Laura Cabrera.
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And now roll out systems thinking through the platform and also through integrations
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through organizations.
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So that's how I got here today. That is awesome.
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You know, when we start to think about systems, really, that's what business is.
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It's a set of systems that exist, and that's what helps drive the processes
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that we go through, be it safety processes, manufacturing processes,
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and business processes.
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But oftentimes, we try to work our way or wedge our way through that adjustment
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or making them work. And that might not always be the best approach.
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And so you really bring to the forefront for our listeners and those at our
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council, a new way of thinking about systems.
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So tell us a little bit what systems thinking is and give us a baseline before
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we dive too deep into this.
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So a lot of times when people think of systems thinking, they think of big picture,
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but it's really just thinking in systems.
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And when you understand what systems are, You know, they're very concrete in their construction.
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It's really made up of four elements, and it's also part of how we think.
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And that is our distinctions, relationships, systems, and perspectives.
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And when we consider those elements, when we look at the systems in our organization,
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we can get a clear understanding of the structure.
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It's all about how nature is set up and how those systems exist.
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It's the same patterns that we have in real life. And it might seem odd to think
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that that's all there is to it, but if you think about DNA, there's four amino
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acids, and it takes care of all the variety of life.
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These four elements really do cover all the structure of systems when we think about them.
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And so it's understanding how you can incorporate that framework and understand
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it better within your organization.
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So to break it down, base level, it's four individual pieces that we're looking
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at that kind of develop this system and that helps guide some of our thinking processes.
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Right. So when we look at systems thinking and we start thinking about it from
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a safety standpoint, how does this start to integrate it with safety and health?
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How do we start to identify the system, that core piece, and what does it mean
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to manage that from this different perspective when it comes to safety,
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health in an organization?
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So, you know, you think about your health and safety management system,
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it's pretty broad and encompassing. There's a lot involved there.
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And there's people involved as well. So one of the things that systems thinking
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provides is an ability for us to understand that relationships that are there.
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You know, an example that I would use from a systems thinking perspective is
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that an owner may say that safety is a number one priority in our organization, right?
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But if you would ask around to individuals within the organization,
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they might have a different understanding of that statement.
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They might doubt it. They might believe that it's true. It depends upon who it is.
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And that's because when we make a statement like that, safety is a priority
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at our company, it's really the name of a system.
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That is a system. It's going to have parts. There's going to be evidence of it being there.
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And, you know, if it is a priority in our organization, we're going to have
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those parts identified and we're going to really understand what that means.
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And if they're not there, then that system is undeclared and ambiguous so that
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people are going to have a different idea of what that means when they're looking at it.
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They're either going to say it's true or not true, and it's all going to have
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to do with how that system is made up of what parts are there and what relationships are there.
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So it's interesting. It takes a broad statement that, let's be honest,
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a lot of organizations make. Hey, safety is number one.
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It's a number one priority to us. And I hear that oftentimes from customers.
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But then as I walk through or I'm interacting with organizations,
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you'll see, well, is it really number one or is production number one?
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And it's because they don't have steps or systems itself to support that, right?
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The systems are to say, this is how we measure quality. This is how we measure production.
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This is how we measure delivery time. But maybe they don't exist for safety
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or they're not identified as a priority and they get trumped by the other pieces.
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So with this systems thinking, we start to tear that apart and build a system
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around that statement now of safety being number one and finding a way to measure and engage that.
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Right. Yeah. So systems are made up of parts and holes. So you're going to have
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an idea of what those holes are and what those parts are.
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And you're right, there's going to be procedures and checklists and things like
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that. But it's also going to involve perspective.
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You're going to want the perspective. And we talk about perspective a lot,
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but it's important to know that there's two parts of that. There's a point and there's a view.
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And you need to make sure that whatever the point is looking at,
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that view is constant. So that constant view is that safety is a number one priority.
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What perspective can we look at that from? Well, we can look at it from different
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employees, different managers in the organization. We can look at it from OSHA's perspective.
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You know, so there's different ways to do that.
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And you'll get a different idea of what that systems thinking is a number one
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priority. It's going to have different parts of it depending upon how you look at it.
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And that's the power of systems thinking. We all look at things through a mental model.
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And that mental model is assumptions and things that we put in our mind that
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control what we see and don't see.
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And so when we want something as overt as safety is a number one priority,
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we're going to be overt about the structure of it.
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It's going to have specific parts that.
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It's going to have specific relationships, a lot of documentation,
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you know, and we're going to have, you know, an authority be able to say that.
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Yes, this is a good thing here.
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And this is a number one, you know, you're going to have that your number one
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of your core values is going to be preventing, you know, people from hazards.
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So all those things are going to be put in place that are going to drive the
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idea, the mental model that safety is number one in the organization.
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As we do this as an organization, does this become a standard level of thinking
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of the organization to be most successful?
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Like we, when we have our meetings, when we start to plan for the year,
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when we start to plan how we make adjustments, does systems thinking become
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like a core model of the organization and how we process everything?
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Or is it just applied to specific scenarios?
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No, absolutely. The Cabrera's did a large study of over 34,000 participants.
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And in that study, not to get into the details of it, but they actually identified
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what we tend to do and not to do when we think about something.
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And it goes across experience, education. It's just part of how humans think.
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And so the things that we need to do are all based upon those tendencies.
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And, you know, one of the things I always like to think about is like our org charts.
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You know, there's a line that puts director to a manager and that's it, just a line.
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But the whole company's within that line, if you think about the whole org chart.
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But we don't really think all that through. Now, there's parts of it we could
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say, oh, yeah, you got the job description
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and, you know, the performance evaluation is another part of that.
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But it's really important for us to understand that we don't zoom into relationships.
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And understand what their purpose is. And when we do that, the parts of that
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system are going to be totally different.
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So when we do these things that we tend to not do when we think about things,
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that actually elaborates a structure and gives concreteness to areas that aren't concrete.
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So it's really going to buttress anything that we have in place.
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Because what, you know, it's kind of like, you know, walking the walk and talking
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the talk, you know. But in reality, what's happening is, is we just don't look
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completely and we miss part of the picture because we have.
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And a limited view of what's going on.
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As we look at this, and it gives us a new way to analyze things,
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how does this start to get implemented in an organization?
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Is this something that we just wake up one day and say, we're going to do this?
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Is it a lot of onboarding and training and thought process that goes into it?
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What's that implementation process look like to get to this model of systems thinking?
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Well, there is some understanding of concepts, But the real thing is that there
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are six big moves that we can all do that can really bring about the systems thinking approach.
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And those six moves are based upon those tendencies that we tend to do and not
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do when we think about something.
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So if we incorporate those six moves into discussions of strategy,
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into discussions of how we're going to handle the customer or how we're going
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to set up our health and safety management system,
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or if we use those six moves to look at an incident when it occurs,
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obviously it's going to bring forth hidden things and hidden structure that's
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there that's going to allow us to be able to elaborate on it better.
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We're going to think through it in a structural fashion.
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You know, these things, even once you know about them, are hard to implement
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because, you know, we have these tendencies and we want to fall back on how we normally think.
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If we use these structured moves, it helps us stick to the program, so to speak.
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And then the more we do it, the more we practice it, the more that we elaborate
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with our discussions with these moves, then we can become better at it.
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And it might become more second nature to us.
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But how we incorporate these things is that we start with these discussions
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that we have with each other.
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And then once we do that, the things that we uncover will start to become part of the processes.
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And, you know, we'll come up with a real understanding of what we need to do
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and then come up with concrete actions that we will then all agree upon based
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upon a continuing to use the six moves and using systems thinking to look at things.
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So it's always going to provide a structure for us to have conversations and
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to develop systems and plans.
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And it's hard to really conceptualize and to understand the real value of it
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because it's really inherent in the systems themselves. It's the same as what we have in nature.
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And like I said, it's those, you know, the distinction systems,
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relationships, and perspectives.
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Those things all combine to develop any system and provide us a structure that
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describes anything that we come in contact with.
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So this model, how does it tie into, because I know a lot of organizations I
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work with are, you know, doing Six Sigma or 6S, Black Belt, Lean, whatever.
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Do these systems meld together? They operate independently or are they similar
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to each other? LEAN, for example, is actually a system.
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And it is a system that focuses on value, okay?
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So the perspective of lean is value.
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You want to bring value to the front. You want to maximize value.
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You want to get rid of anything that's waste.
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And so that is really just a perspective, okay?
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So it's maximizing that perspective in the system.
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And you take lean and you slap it into your system.
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And it gives you the tools that you need to be able to do that.
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Now, DSRP actually is, when you zoom out of our system thinking,
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that is actually the structure of the framework itself.
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And, you know, we could go through, for instance, what I said,
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the value is the point of view, the point at which you're looking at the system.
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You want to look at your system from a point of value. And then you have relationships,
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and the relationships are those things in the system that create value or create waste, you know.
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So, systems thinking is a zoom out from any framework that you're going to be putting into place.
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And that's the great thing about it, because you're going to really understand
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that system better by understanding how different frameworks have structure
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and how they can interface with your organization in ways that you never dreamed possible.
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Because you have a deeper understanding of that structure.
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So it allows you to take a step back and see the larger picture by looking at
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the totality of the system. Exactly. Yep.
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So rolling programs out like this and working with this, what have you seen
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as inherent benefits and what's that return for those companies that start to do this?
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What's been the feedback out there? The feedback is that the results that they
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obtain, so it depends on what they're going after.
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You know, initially, some companies are just looking for, you know,
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a better engagement system and collaboration system, a way to operate their
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meetings in a more efficient fashion.
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And but those organizations that really understand systems thinking and how
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it can transform their organization, they're seeing results that are incredible.
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I mean, we have some case studies, for instance, GE Healthcare a while back
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incorporated DSRP and systems thinking to develop a radiation machine that it allowed for, you know,
00:16:32.832 --> 00:16:36.152
the customer who was the child.
00:16:36.612 --> 00:16:41.132
Not the parents, right, or the insurance company, but have the child be more
00:16:41.132 --> 00:16:44.072
comfortable when they got the training, the testing done.
00:16:44.072 --> 00:16:49.452
So that's the kind of transformative information that could come forward.
00:16:49.732 --> 00:16:54.752
Better results where you understand better about what you're trying to do.
00:16:54.872 --> 00:16:57.392
And so the outcomes have been tremendous.
00:16:57.832 --> 00:17:01.272
So in that healthcare piece, they started to look at it not just as a perspective
00:17:01.272 --> 00:17:03.772
of, hey, this is how we make money on the machine.
00:17:03.972 --> 00:17:07.792
And hey, here's what the insurance company is going to be willing to pay to make this operate.
00:17:08.092 --> 00:17:11.312
And hey, this is the result to make the parents happy by seeing it.
00:17:11.312 --> 00:17:14.432
But it took it and twisted it, looking at it from a perspective of the child
00:17:14.432 --> 00:17:18.752
and what their experience was to give them a better overall product,
00:17:18.792 --> 00:17:21.712
which then translates to benefits in all the other care. Right.
00:17:21.832 --> 00:17:24.552
Yeah. When you think about everybody that's involved in that whole process,
00:17:24.552 --> 00:17:28.752
from the parents to the caregivers, everything is easier for everyone if the
00:17:28.752 --> 00:17:29.772
child is more comfortable.
00:17:30.405 --> 00:17:34.465
And so, you know, it's just that and that's exactly what systems thinking does.
00:17:34.625 --> 00:17:38.345
It helps you zoom out from the situation. And at some point,
00:17:38.445 --> 00:17:41.905
you're going to be zooming in to understand, you know, OK, so what is that process
00:17:41.905 --> 00:17:44.305
going to look like? You know, what is the machine going to look like?
00:17:44.445 --> 00:17:47.305
You know, and then those are the things where you tend to make changes that
00:17:47.305 --> 00:17:49.085
are impactful going forward.
00:17:49.605 --> 00:17:54.365
It's interesting because I think, especially in the safety world and I think corporate world,
00:17:54.545 --> 00:17:59.425
we're so integrated into our product or our process or our task or our role
00:17:59.425 --> 00:18:03.605
that we're always narrowed in and we're trying to find what's that small tweak
00:18:03.605 --> 00:18:08.225
we need to make here or there that how often do we really step back and look at the whole scenario?
00:18:08.565 --> 00:18:12.965
We're just been trained and we've spent a lot of time narrowing in onto the
00:18:12.965 --> 00:18:16.865
minute changes, not realizing that there can be a massive change just by stepping
00:18:16.865 --> 00:18:19.285
back and looking at it from 30,000 foot. Exactly.
00:18:19.545 --> 00:18:23.765
Yeah. Even from a point of, you know, with OSHA and safety, a lot of people,
00:18:24.045 --> 00:18:28.325
when they look, actually look at the guidances and the regulations or,
00:18:28.605 --> 00:18:31.745
you know, it says, you know, not just safety, but health and safety.
00:18:31.905 --> 00:18:34.405
OK, so what does that include? Does that include wellness?
00:18:34.685 --> 00:18:39.665
Is safety part of that or is safety part of wellness or is wellness part of safety?
00:18:39.665 --> 00:18:43.845
And as you start walking through that and getting an understanding of that,
00:18:43.985 --> 00:18:49.545
and what's great about systems thinking is the learning is on the individual
00:18:49.545 --> 00:18:51.465
and the organizational level.
00:18:51.745 --> 00:18:55.385
You know, you're the one that's learning from what you're looking at.
00:18:55.505 --> 00:18:58.885
You know, you're actually, instead of just seeing a framework,
00:18:59.165 --> 00:19:03.085
you're really getting into it and you're understanding, oh, this is a relationship.
00:19:03.831 --> 00:19:08.071
And this is, you know, this is a distinction. And so when I make a distinction,
00:19:08.071 --> 00:19:12.871
I need to understand that there's what it is and then, oh, there's what it isn't also.
00:19:13.051 --> 00:19:16.911
It's important for me to understand that as well. You know, when you're talking
00:19:16.911 --> 00:19:20.071
about health, what is healthy and what's not healthy?
00:19:20.211 --> 00:19:23.871
And for organizations to understand that and to come to, you know,
00:19:23.951 --> 00:19:27.051
and at some point you're going to have to, you know, when we were going back
00:19:27.051 --> 00:19:31.271
to our safety as a number one priority, when we look at that,
00:19:31.631 --> 00:19:37.111
you know, does, okay, so what that is, is, okay, that it's going to be a primary
00:19:37.111 --> 00:19:39.351
objective for the organization for safety.
00:19:39.591 --> 00:19:45.171
Does that mean that we're going to let people stay at home and not even work
00:19:45.171 --> 00:19:48.251
so that they're not going to come in contact with anything that could potentially,
00:19:48.291 --> 00:19:50.771
so they won't get hurt on the way to work or they won't get hurt at work?
00:19:50.971 --> 00:19:54.431
No, it doesn't mean that. And that might seem extreme, but that's what you end
00:19:54.431 --> 00:19:56.771
up looking at when you have a distinction.
00:19:56.991 --> 00:20:01.831
What is it and what isn't it? And it can actually provide a tremendous amount
00:20:01.831 --> 00:20:08.511
of usable information that can then be extrapolated out through what are the
00:20:08.511 --> 00:20:10.411
parts that it's going to have because of that.
00:20:10.942 --> 00:20:14.022
You know, you know, what are which ways are we going to look at it?
00:20:14.222 --> 00:20:18.142
And again, the relationships that are going to be there is all it's kind of
00:20:18.142 --> 00:20:22.442
hard just to talk about one and not talk about the other because it's so it's
00:20:22.442 --> 00:20:27.162
like nested and they're all dependent upon each other. They co-imply each other.
00:20:27.642 --> 00:20:32.762
It's an interesting way to start thinking about safety, health and leadership
00:20:32.762 --> 00:20:35.122
in an organization and giving it a different perspective.
00:20:35.222 --> 00:20:38.382
As people are listening to this and they start to think about,
00:20:38.622 --> 00:20:42.402
wow, how do I start to make this change? Because it's conceptually,
00:20:42.602 --> 00:20:45.042
it's hard to wrap your head around all of it at once.
00:20:45.162 --> 00:20:48.542
There's a lot happening there. But if I want to start to change that thought
00:20:48.542 --> 00:20:52.262
process, start to change in my organization, what do I do?
00:20:52.502 --> 00:20:55.502
What's those first steps? What did listeners here say? You know what?
00:20:55.522 --> 00:20:59.662
We want to start to test this while we want to change our organization and how we're operating.
00:20:59.902 --> 00:21:02.582
What are those first call to actions that you tell people to do?
00:21:02.742 --> 00:21:09.742
The biggest thing is to try it. So you must learn what the questions are that
00:21:09.742 --> 00:21:13.062
you need to ask or the moves that you can make and what two systems think.
00:21:13.162 --> 00:21:14.462
You have to kind of understand that.
00:21:14.642 --> 00:21:19.482
And to do that, what you can do is you can go on to the SCSI website,
00:21:19.742 --> 00:21:24.802
scsi.pro, and you can enroll in our Basecamp for free.
00:21:24.842 --> 00:21:28.262
And it can give you the basics of what I'm talking about today.
00:21:28.522 --> 00:21:33.362
And so then what you need to do once you get that is you have to actually use it.
00:21:33.362 --> 00:21:36.342
So a lot of times, and here's the thing about systems thinking,
00:21:36.522 --> 00:21:41.222
it's so much a part of our existence that we, you know, we just,
00:21:41.342 --> 00:21:44.522
we can't understand that we're like, oh, yeah, I understand that,
00:21:44.662 --> 00:21:46.422
you know, but without actually trying it.
00:21:46.562 --> 00:21:50.122
And then once you do, you know, if you have something missing from your cognition,
00:21:50.122 --> 00:21:53.082
you don't know it because it's missing, right?
00:21:53.542 --> 00:21:57.902
You don't see what's not there. And when you go through the systems thinking,
00:21:58.262 --> 00:22:02.762
our six moves in particular, you're going to be able to see a lot more.
00:22:03.082 --> 00:22:07.262
And so that's what you need to do. You need to actually use the,
00:22:07.662 --> 00:22:11.022
so one of them, for instance, is an is-is-not list that I talked about earlier.
00:22:11.222 --> 00:22:14.462
And you make a list of what something is and what it isn't.
00:22:14.832 --> 00:22:17.712
Like, for instance, safety is a priority at our organization.
00:22:17.872 --> 00:22:21.172
Or what is the priority for this meeting for today?
00:22:21.352 --> 00:22:24.552
You know, so you would list what it is and what it isn't.
00:22:24.752 --> 00:22:30.032
And that gives you a systems approach to distinctions.
00:22:30.352 --> 00:22:36.672
And then from that, you will develop other aspects of the elements of systems thinking.
00:22:36.672 --> 00:22:42.532
But the main thing is to actually learn what these six elements are and then
00:22:42.532 --> 00:22:45.932
to actually try them in a meeting or in a discussion with somebody.
00:22:46.152 --> 00:22:49.332
The thing about systems thinking also is you can try it on your own, too.
00:22:49.472 --> 00:22:54.552
You can just sit down with an idea and with these six moves and,
00:22:54.552 --> 00:22:57.212
you know, zoom in, zoom out, the different ones that are there,
00:22:57.252 --> 00:23:03.392
and just roll it out in your mind as to what comes forward from when you're looking at it.
00:23:03.392 --> 00:23:08.632
And then that can bring about some realizations and some real ideas for you.
00:23:09.012 --> 00:23:12.832
If you wanted to do, I've done that before, before I step into a meeting to
00:23:12.832 --> 00:23:16.132
get more confidence when, you know, when I'm getting ready to talk about something.
00:23:16.352 --> 00:23:18.172
But, you know, you don't have to. You
00:23:18.172 --> 00:23:21.632
can just jump right to doing it in a meeting. But you have to use them.
00:23:21.852 --> 00:23:26.072
You have to actually systems think in order to be a systems thinker.
00:23:26.252 --> 00:23:30.992
That makes sense. And I think it's a good way to test the water and see how that works.
00:23:30.992 --> 00:23:35.112
For those people who have now gone out and tested the water after listening
00:23:35.112 --> 00:23:38.952
to this, or they just want more information and really want to deep dive into
00:23:38.952 --> 00:23:42.612
this, what's a good way for them to get a hold of you and how do they connect
00:23:42.612 --> 00:23:44.472
with you? So I am on LinkedIn.
00:23:44.872 --> 00:23:51.912
Lori Fisher PMP is my profile and scsi.pro is our website.
00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:59.380
And my email is lorief, L-O-R-I-F, at scsi.pro.
00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:04.180
And you can reach out to me any of those ways, and I'd be happy to help.
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:09.620
It is extremely impactful, and it's difficult to relay in a short amount of
00:24:09.620 --> 00:24:12.140
time how much benefit can be provided.
00:24:12.300 --> 00:24:17.120
I'm also running a situation right now where I can do a workshop in your plant
00:24:17.120 --> 00:24:21.840
at no cost if we can book it by the end of March. So that's another great thing there.
00:24:22.560 --> 00:24:26.380
Oh, that's awesome. That'd be perfect. Yeah. Well, Lori, thank you so much for
00:24:26.380 --> 00:24:30.260
coming on and talking to us about this. And I think there's a lot of benefit here.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.740
And I'm excited to honestly hop on the website and learn a little bit more about
00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:39.300
it myself because I can see positives from a business owner and from a safety
00:24:39.300 --> 00:24:41.720
and health standpoint of how this can start to change how we think.
00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:46.220
Listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope everyone has a great
00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:49.420
week. And as always, be safe. Thanks for listening.
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.620
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. For more episodes, check us out on your
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