OVER DEZE AFLEVERING
My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Gregory Poirier.
Check out what Gregory has to say about screenwriting, as well as crime writing!
You can download a copy of the transcript here.
Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. Our guest today is an acclaimed screenwriter, director, and producer whose work spans film and television. His credits include National Treasure: Book of Secrets, Knox Goes Away, and Rosewood. A graduate of the USC School of Theater and the UCLA Master’s program in screenwriting, his debut novel, A Thousand Cuts will be coming out very soon. In fact, you can probably pre-order it today. It’s my pleasure to have with me, and I forgot to ask how you pronounce your name, so please just say it.
Gregory (01:31): Gregory Poirier.
Debbi (01:33): Gregory Poirier. Thank you so much. The one thing I forgot to do at the beginning of this.
Gregory (01:40): I pronounce it a little more technically than that in France, but …
Debbi (01:43): True. Yes, yes. France is … Yeah, they would do it totally right, and we do it totally wrong, but whatever. Sorry about that, France. So anyway, thanks for being here today.
Gregory (01:58): Yeah, my pleasure.
Debbi (01:58): After a career in film and television, what prompted you to write your first novel?
Gregory (02:04): Well, it actually was sort of an organic thing that came up. I mean, there’s a lot of conversation now amongst me and my friends about how this business of ours is changing, and it’s becoming a lot more challenging because it’s shrinking, shrinking, shrinking.
Gregory (02:24): And I’ve been very fortunate that it hasn’t shrunk me out yet, But you never know. And I actually had this idea for this story and I was trying to work it as a screenplay. And I just at some point just decided that the sort of specific voice that I was going for and the sort of tone that I was hoping for wasn’t really coming across that well in the screenplay version. And I finally decided that it’s an action thing. The way that I started this thing was I wanted to do a film that was the film that Humphrey Bogart or Robert Mitchum or one of those guys would make if they were alive now, something with a real sort of noir weigh into it, but with a modern sensibility, modern action, all that kind of stuff. And so that’s what I was trying to achieve. And for whatever reason, it wasn’t coming across. I know I can write a noir because Knox Goes Away was a noir, and that’s probably the favorite movie of mine that I’ve ever done.
(03:33): But this was something different and it just wasn’t working. And I was sitting with my gang of writer friends at the Farmer’s Market one week and one of them said, why don’t you write a novel? And I thought I might have the perfect thing to try that. And so I just basically started it as something to try and to see if this story worked better in that form, which it definitely did. And that’s how we got here.
Debbi (04:02): Why do you think it works better as a novel?
Gregory (04:05): I think that there’s a lot of reasons, but I think for one thing, I think it’s easier to exert your own voice in this form of writing as opposed to in a screenplay. I mean, I feel like Knox, to bring that movie up again, it’s probably the closest thing that I’ve ever done where it was sort of my voice that came across. But a lot of time you’re trying to not inject your own voice into it. For instance, Rosewood, which was a historical drama, needed to have a certain cadence, needed to have a certain feel and way of speaking and all of that kind of stuff. And it’s not me. You’re purely, at that point, a writer, which is great. I enjoy that very much. But this, I just wanted to inject some of my personality into it more. And that’s definitely easier in a book than it is in a screenplay.
(05:03): And in a screenplay, you write it and then it goes through actors, it goes through directors, it goes through editors. I mean, there’s a lot of people between you and the audience, whereas in this thing, you’re talking directly to your reader, which I really enjoyed a lot.
Debbi (05:19): And I take it that you worked with an editor who got what you were trying to say.
Gregory (05:25): Absolutely. I worked with Keith Wallman at Diversion Books, and he was very, very into what I was trying to do. He understood it right away and was very supportive.
Debbi (05:39): It’s fascinating how the fields differ in that respect, how little of yourself in a sense goes into screenwriting. At the same time, how much of it, because where do these characters come from except from you? So we start with that and then people start to chip away at it a little bit.
Gregory (05:58): It’s also a really different type of writing. I mean, screenwriting is 100% external.
(06:07): All you can put on the page is what the audience sees and what the audience hears. You don’t get a chance … You need to bring out whatever the emotion of the character is and whatever their journey is and all that through those two things, what you see and what you hear. And that’s all you have. You don’t have this ability to delve into the inner monologue and to go into the past of everybody and to sort of really dig into these characters. So it’s a very highly technical form of writing. There’s very rigid structures to it. It’s just very different than this. And it’s not easy. I mean, it’s difficult to do, but it’s just different. And so this was a lot of fun.
Debbi (06:51): That is a very good point. I’m so glad you said that because that’s one of the things that I emphasize when I talk to people about screenwriting, about how different it is.
Gregory (07:00): Yeah, it’s totally—
Debbi (07:01): Similar, but different.
Gregory (07:04): The analogy I sort of use is that I’ve been an electrician for 35 years and I’ve been gathering all these electrician tools, and now I’m trying to take all the tools that I’ve gathered and do some plumbing.
Gregory (07:19): You’re still trying to do something practical, but it’s a completely different form and you need different tools.
Debbi (07:26): And you hope there isn’t a leak in your pipe somewhere.
Debbi (07:31): Somebody’s going to point that out to you. Let’s see. What attracted you to the spy genre? I love the spy genre.
Gregory (07:42): It’s interesting because this is a little bit spy genre, but it’s also, what it’s really about, it’s about a bunch of ex-spies. So it’s about a lot of people that have a lot of skills that they developed when they were working for the CIA that are now out of that world and are trying to figure out ways to use the things that they know how to do in a different way, which is why when we meet our main character, Max Starkey, he’s working as what I call a recovery man for the mob, basically. If they lose something or something gets stolen from them or whatever, he goes and he gets it back. And it’s like the only thing he was able to find in civilian life were the things that he learned how to do in the CIA were of use to him. So I do like the spy genre and I do like those kind of books, but this is really like a post-spy drama more.
(08:41): And at the same time, the other couple, I guess you would call them the antagonists in the book are the same thing. They’re people he knows from his past, but they’re also out and they’re using their contacts and their skills and all that kind of stuff to make a very, very good living, doing highly questionable things.
Debbi (09:07): Oh, I’m sorry. I was just going to say, did you have to do a lot of research on the subject?
Gregory (09:12): I did. And a lot of the research that I did, I did years earlier for other things because I’ve been writing for a long time. I’ve been a screenwriter for 35 years and like every screenwriter, I have a lot of projects that came and went and never got made and that kind of thing. But I’ve been to Langley. I’ve met all these people. I’ve done all this stuff in my career over the years in research for other projects and stuff. So I didn’t have to really dig into that stuff too much. I know how Langley works. I know what the building looks like inside. I know I have all that stuff, but I did do a lot of research in terms of locations and tech stuff, like the things that I wanted to use in the book. I don’t know what you would call it, guns and hotels or whatever.
(10:17): I did do a lot of heavy duty research into that kind of stuff. And I like to be as realistic as possible in terms of it’s going to take this long to get from here to here, and these are the things we’re going to encounter on the way, and that kind of stuff. I like to make it as grounded as possible because it’s a bit of a fantastical story, but it takes place in the real world.
Gregory (10:46): But I enjoy research. I like it.
Debbi (10:48): Me too. Yeah. It’s amazing what you find when you look.
Gregory (10:53): Well, my biggest problem with researching stuff is stopping.
Debbi (10:57): I know. It’s like, oh my God, this actually happened somewhere? Ooh, this is interesting.
Gregory (11:03): And I also, I’ve traveled a lot and I’ve traveled a lot in Southeast Asia, which is where the book is set. And so I was able to take a lot of experiences that I had down there and sort of incorporate them into the book in more dramatic ways. And than they happened to me obviously.
Debbi (11:20): Right, right. How do you structure your writing time? Do you have a time for writing? Do you have a schedule that you write on? How do you balance it with your other projects?
Gregory (11:33): For the first four hours a day, I berate myself constantly that I’m not writing. That’s the first step.
Debbi (11:41): I should try that. Maybe I’d be more relaxed.
Gregory (11:47): I walk around the house saying, “I bet Stephen King is writing right now.” But yeah, I tend to write about five hours, four to five hours a day is about my limit really.
(11:59): And I don’t really do a page count. I don’t put myself on that kind of thing unless I’m racing a deadline and say, okay, I have to do a chapter. I have to do two chapters or two scenes or whatever today. But for the most part, because I’m the kind of guy where I’ll sit down three days in a row and barely eke out three pages, and then on day four, I’ll write 20 pages or 25 pages. It’s just the way my rhythm works and I don’t understand it and I don’t really need to, just is what it is. But I also go through a couple weeks here and there where nothing comes out and then in a week I write a whole draft of something. I’m a very streaky writer, but I do try to sit down every afternoon for four or five hours and try to avoid playing bouncing balls and all that other fun stuff.
Gregory (12:57): So I need that though. I need a structure like that. I have this nice spot here where you see me sitting right now, but I also write really well out in the world and even in busy places. I’m that cliche guy that likes to write in Starbucks. I like to write at our local library branch. I write really well in hotel lobbies and on airplanes. And I’m just, I don’t know, it’s almost like how if you want a toddler to fall asleep, you take them to a really busy restaurant and they sort of get overwhelmed and fall asleep. I think that’s kind of the same thing with me. If I go somewhere that’s busy, I have to shut everything out and it zones me in on what I’m working on.
Debbi (13:46): That’s interesting.
Debbi (13:50): I’ve never been one to write out in coffee shops and things like that. So I always find it interesting when people do enjoy that. It’s kind of like-
Gregory (13:59): I’ll say my wife and I, we raised four kids and we’re all adults now, so sometimes the coffee shop is quieter than the house.
Debbi (14:08): There’s that. Our house is pretty quiet, I have to say that. Unless, of course, my husband is listening to loud music, but that’s okay. Loud music I can deal with.
Gregory (14:19): Can you write with music on?
Debbi (14:21): As long as it’s not too loud. I mean, if it’s on the background or something. If somebody’s listening to TV, I don’t care.
Gregory (14:28): Yeah, I tend to make, you don’t call them mix tapes anymore. I don’t know what you call them now, but playlists, I guess.
Debbi (14:36): Playlists, yeah.
Gregory (14:37): For things that I’m working on. And then I’ll listen to them, but not while I’m writing. I’ll listen to them in the car or while I’m puttering around and they sort of get you in the mood.
Debbi (14:49): Exactly. Yeah. Because sometimes when you hear music when you’re writing, it’s just a little too much stimulation or something. Too many things going on.
Gregory (14:57): Yeah, I get caught up in the lyrics and then I look down and go, “Well, I just wrote Welcome to the Hotel California. What the heck?”
Debbi (15:03): Where did that come from? Yeah. So is there a writer who has most inspired you as a writer?
Gregory (15:12): Ooh, boy. Well, it depends on which kind of writing you’re talking abo ut. Screenwriting would be different than … I’m a huge fan of guys like Preston Sturges, people like that. But in terms of books, I read so many books and I read so many different kinds of books. I’ll read anything, honestly. Right now, this is sort of a guilty little secret thing to say. I never read any of the Ayn Rand books. So right now I’m reading The Fountainhead for the first time at my age. But just because I thought, oh, that’s something I probably should read at some point before I kick the bucket.
Debbi (16:02): She was an interesting person.
Gregory (16:04): Yeah. Boy, oh boy, interesting writer too.
Gregory (16:08): But the stuff that I most enjoy reading, if I’m going to be a hundred percent honest, I love the Michael Connolly stuff. I love Bosch and Lincoln Lawyer. I love anything by Karin Slaughter. I love the Elvis Cole books. I love all those kind of things that are fun to read.
Gregory (16:28): I mean, I’m enjoying this Fountainhead, but it does feel a little bit like some work I never got done and I need to do it. It’s an interesting read, but it’s not as fun as reading.
Debbi (16:40): Well, she’s very opinionated, was very opinionated. I will say that.
Gregory (16:46): I’ll definitely cleanse my palate with a Reacher book or something after this.
Debbi (16:50): I suggest you do so. Yeah. Take yourself out of that mindset fast. Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?
Gregory (17:02): Well, it depends on which kind of writing career you’re talking about. The advice might be slightly different for somebody who wants to go into screenwriting now, but my advice always used to be that if you wanted to be a screenwriter, you had to do absolutely nothing else. My advice used to be, if you can see yourself doing something else, go do that because unless this is the only thing you can see yourself doing, it’s going to be a really hard life and you’re probably not going to become successful at it unless it’s all you can think of doing. It’s the one thing that drives you. And I guess that’s still true, but I think nowadays I would counsel people to be a little more of an omnivore in terms of what they write. I think part of the thing that was responsible for this book that I wrote was that nobody will make anything now that doesn’t have IP.
(18:08): So I sort of thought, well, I’ll make some IP and then somebody will make a movie or a TV show out of it. But I think that just writing this as a script and sending it out and trying to sell it would be really hard in today’s market. So I would suggest just try writing all kinds of things, be a writer, be a writer of every form you can work on. And that’s going to be the easiest way for you. I mean, not easy, but it’s going to be the best way forward,
Debbi (18:42): It’ll be an easier way probably.
Gregory (18:43): Yeah. I mean, screenwriting right now is, the market has shrunk so much that even guys like me that have been doing it forever, I’m working still, but I’m having to find ways outside the traditional way to sort, oh, here’s somebody that has some money and wants to make a movie. Well, let’s do a script and let’s see what happens. And it’s a lot more spec writing now than it used to be, there a fewer jobs, but also at the same time, specs are harder to sell. So it’s a really challenging time, I think, to be trying to break in as a screenwriter. The other thing I would suggest if screenwriting is the goal is to just make some films, some small short films and sort of showcase yourself. You can also, if you can get short stories published, people are buying those to make films out of and TV shows out of. So that’s a way also.
Gregory (19:51): I would just say try to get a foothold in every way you can. That’s the only thing now. It used to be just keep writing screenplays, keep writing screenplays and eventually you’ll sell something. But I don’t think that model really holds anymore because-
Debbi (20:06): I think you’re right.
Gregory (20:07): Yeah. I would hate to be breaking in now. I’m sorry. I hope I don’t discourage anybody by saying that, but it’s tough right now.
Debbi (20:16): But that’s a very honest assessment that you gave, and I appreciate it very much because I think people need to know about this.
Gregory (20:25): At the same time, there’s nothing like it. A writing career is the greatest thing in the world. I’ve hated it every day and I’ve loved it every day, and it’s fabulous. If you can get it going, get it going, because it’s really a wonderful way to live a life.
Debbi (20:41): Well, that’s great. That’s a wonderful thought. Thank you. I wanted to ask you something else on the subject of … Oh, you mentioned IP. Talk for a second about the importance of IP. I’m always talking about this, and I never know if the message is really getting through. IP is kind of crucial now to-
Gregory (21:01): It is very crucial. And part of the reason for that is that the studios used to be run by people who love movies. Now it’s run purely by business people. They’re not movie fans. You go in there and try to reference some Clark Gable movie and they’ll look at you like you just came from Mars. They don’t know what that is. It’s a completely different set of people buying now. The studios used to be run by people who got into the movie business because they love movies. Now it’s people that have moved over from the restaurant branch of the corporation or whatever. It’s just people that are running it as a business and they’re all afraid to do the wrong thing.
(21:54): They used to develop scripts. They used to develop 25, 30 scripts for every movie they got made just because that’s how you mined good material, but they won’t do that anymore. They’re so afraid of everything. And so the IP thing is a crutch for them because they can go, well, look, this worked as a graphic novel or it worked as a book or it worked as whatever, a poem somebody scratched on the side of a building. And so if it fails, it’s not my fault because look, it already worked as this other thing. And so that’s why I think they really do look for IP now because it’s just a way for them to protect themselves.
Gregory (22:42): The nice thing in the old days was they weren’t afraid to fail because you made a lot of movies and some of them didn’t make money, but a lot of them did. And you came out ultimately on the plus side of all of that. Nowadays, they’re going to make five movies a year and they’re so risk averse that they almost won’t buy a script unless you come in with a director and two actors attached. And it’s just this whole other thing now. It’s just a cover your ass business now. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to swear on your podcast.
Debbi (23:21): No, please do. I encourage it.
Gregory (23:23): Well then, no, I’m kidding. So it’s different. And I think that if you can, if you have the path to write something or to publish a short story or like I said, a graphic novel, if you can write a graphic novel and hook up with an artist and sell that first, then that can be your entry into … I mean, I’m not going to talk too much about it because it’s not public yet, but I wrote this book and it was optioned like that because there’s the thing and they can all point at the thing and say-
Debbi (24:05): We have a thing.
Gregory (24:06): There was a book. There’s a thing. Yeah, that’s what I always call it. I always say the main difference between screenwriting and writing this that I like, the main thing that I like about it is that you write the thing and there’s the thing
Gregory (24:22): As opposed to the movies where you write the thing and then you wait two years for Dwayne Johnson to read it, and then you got to get a director. And then if you’re lucky in five years, there’s the thing on the screen. Maybe. Yeah. I said if you’re lucky. Yeah. But with this, you write it and they say, okay, here’s my thing. You either like my thing or you don’t like my thing, but there’s the thing.
Debbi (24:47): Exactly. Yeah. It is nice just to be able to create your own thing. Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?
Gregory (24:57): No, I just really enjoyed writing this and I really hope that people enjoy reading it. I read a lot and I tried to make this something that I would enjoy reading. I tried to put in some humor and some surprises and just make it a fun experience. So I’m hoping that that’s what happens is I don’t know how many people will read it, but I hope that the ones that do really have a good experience of it. And I’ve already written a second one, by the way.
Debbi (25:27): I was going to say, are you going to write another? That’s excellent.
Gregory (25:31): Yeah. Because I wrote this book on spec. I didn’t pitch it. And when they bought it, they contracted me for two books about the same character. So the second one is in the hands of the editors now, so we’ll see what they say.
Debbi (25:48): Wow. Well, that’s fantastic. Congratulations. That’s great.
Debbi (25:53): Well, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.
Gregory (25:57): Absolutely my pleasure. This was great.
Debbi (26:00): It was my pleasure too. Great to meet you.
Debbi (26:04): I would also like to thank my patrons on Patreon and my followers and subscribers on Substack. To everyone listening, if you follow me on Patreon, and it’s free to do that, I hope you’ll take a moment to fill out the short survey that I’ve provided there to get a better sense of what you’re looking for from the Crime Cafe. I can provide more interviews. I can provide more interviews with screenwriters. I can coach people on writing. Anything you’re interested in, let me know. This is the final episode of season 11. During the hiatus, I’ll give some more thought as to what the podcast could include as a perk for Patreon supporters. In the meantime, take care and happy reading. I will be seeing you.
