Belle Gunness

Belle Gunnes: Good evening. My name is Andy. My name is Richard. And this is strange stuff. Alright, alright. Hello, hello, hello. Sorry, I was downstairs making tea. I could hear the thing ringing. Yeah. But you are a bit early. Well you could hear it over the thumpy thumpy music that you are clearly listening to. What do you mean? You look like you're in the fridge or Brixton Academy circa nineteen ninety fucking seven, mate. I've got a work t shirt on, we have to be a bit higher viz. Silent disco. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't think about that. let me adjust my background lighting. Alexa, make podcast one yellow. How's that? yeah, well yeah, no, settle down a bit now. You you just went into instant demonic. You just turned red. But yeah, you're alright now. You look like a normal human being. Yeah, but what a week. yeah. I have never I mean I've lived in Sweden for what twenty one years maybe? I have never seen snow like this. Fuck. I mean it started on Monday and it didn't stop until Thursday afternoon and it was a blizzard. Howdy. Twenty four seven blizzard. Yeah. How many feet of snow you got then? Well, we've had to shut one entire building at work. Which is the size of about twenty football pitches. simply because of the volume of snow on the roof. We've got these special fucking high tech roofs. 'Cause everything in building i everything in Sweden is built with a pointy roof for a good reason. Yeah. Right? So that the snow falls off it. But we've gone flat. Right. And we've got heated s roofs. with a drainage system. So it basically supposed to melt the snow. And I f I well I was like being shown around and told all this, I thought, you've never been fucking building in Sweden before, mate. Anyway, one of the buildings we've had to quarantine it because the snow is four meters high on the roof and it's drifted because we've got we've had quite high winds, it's drifted up to eight meters high. Bloody hell. And like the the sheer weight of that fucking snow that could bring the whole building down, you know. me. Whoa. Mental. It is. Well I can't complain about how bitterly cold and horrible it is here then. it's not that cold. We've had a constant sort of minus twelve, minus fifteen. I'm moaning about minus four, so I mean I quite like it when it's around ten to fifteen because As long as there's no wind, it's it's actually quite bearable. You can still go out with just a hoodie on. Yeah, right. But if there's the slightest bit of wind, it's suddenly minus ninety. Yeah. And the and the everything blows in your face. And it doesn't matter which way you're facing, that fucking omnipotent wind follows your eyes and your face around. It's it's the same as when you have a bonfire. Hmm. No matter where you sit, the moment you sit down, the wind decides that it's you it needs to blow the smoke towards. Yeah. And everybody else is just laughing and enjoying themselves. Fucking winkers. Fucking wind. Blame it on the Chinese and all the rice they eat. I don't think it's got anything to do with rice. That was crazy, Jane. Probably. Warned me one night that's why they fly kites in in China. 'Cause they all eat all too much rice and they have a lot of wind. That's true, yes. She did say that. I wonder what she's doing now, even if she's still alive. no, actually. I I sort of asked around, but nobody's sort of seen or heard from her for years. I imagine if she's alive, she must be in some kind of home or something, because she could barely look after herself twenty years ago. But who knows? Who knows? Did you know though that for years Mike thought that she was what was her name? Shipton, you know the the supermodel from the sixties. Really? Jean Shrimpton. Gene Shrimpton, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah Mike thought that she was Jean Shrimpton. Well Mike had a little thing for her then did he? I don't know about a thing, but he was just convinced that that's who she was. And then Finally, you know, because in the borderline days and everything, and then the internet came along, and I was like, No, look, this is Dream Shrimpton, and she's still alive, and she looks like this. That is Crazy J. And she looks like that. Yeah. Yeah. Last time I saw must have been what twenty eight, twenty thousand eight, two thousand nine, something like that. When did you last see Mike? That I lost see him was back in late spring, early summer. Alright, so you're still in fairly contact fairly content. I don't you know, I I do miss him because obviously he used to pop down to the office for an hour and we'd have a little chat about this, that, and the other. Anytime I was at work and he's he's not much use with the phone. I send him messages about Formula One and stuff, but yeah no, weeks go by, I don't hear back from him. But he's doing all right. He's People are generally shit with commun well, I am. I'm a really bad communicator. I can I can go two years without speaking to someone. And it's to me it's like nothing's changed. But I just I just I'm just not a communicator. Well, you know, we're that generation, aren't we, where you saw people in the pub. Yeah. You know, you your phoning wasn't, you know, once you were past a teenage years, once you were going to the pub, you didn't sit in a cold hallway. on the phone to somebody while your dad yelled at you about the fucking phone bill. Or a piss stinky fucking phone box. piss stinky phone box. Indeed. A pocket full of two pence pieces. Yeah no we were very much you saw people, you talked to people that way. So as a generation this idea of like constantly being on Facebook and stuff and that's your social life isn't really ingrained in us, I'm glad to say. Because it's no social life. No. I'd rather see nobody all day than have to go on Facebook. Well, I mean I I reset I resent the fact that I have to go on Facebook just for this podcast. Yes. And like I mean, even this week I forgot to do my weekly teaser post on Friday because I on Instagram and Facebook because I hate doing it. I mean I l I like do I love the podcast and I like doing the artwork for the podcast and all the different graphics. But the I it's just the idea of having to do it for social media is so fucking depressing. Yes. No, I I get that. I get that. Enough, I used to have to do it 'cause of the bar. You know, a lot of people used to get in touch on Facebook, you know. And they're not just people in the UK or London, but you know, people abroad. You know, we're coming to London, what are your opening hours? You know? Are you open on Sundays? Can I this, can I that? You know, it's it's London mate, we never shut. Well, yes, indeed. But you know, y it was necessary to communicate pleasantly and politely with these people, even if all I ever wanted to do was log off and go faggot off. I mean, I am happy, but I do get sort of email correspondence from some of our listeners, and I'm quite happy to go into that with them and answer their mails and chat with them. But this instant gratification through multi-messaging via Facebook and all the rest of it is just nonsense. Yeah. Yeah indeed. You came in hot when you started talking about Crazy Jane. did I? Okay. Yeah. And the reason you came in hot was because I thought today we'd talk about a serial killer, but in particular a woman's serial killer because they're rare. They're much rarer than men. Or They aren't that rare, we just never fucking catch Indeed. This this kind of clearly you've been thinking about Julia what was her name? god, I only recorded it last week. sorry, but I'm gonna be s I'm gonna be sixty one. Yeah. The Italian chick anyway. Yes. Well this one isn't an Italian chick. And it is somewhat out of our time frame. She was known as Hell's Bell Gunnis. Okay. And she was America's well, sh I've seen it I've read it that she's America's most degenerate female serial killer in history. But I dunno, I've s heard of some really bad ones. But she likely killed both her husbands and all of her children. And what is certain is that she also murdered most of her boyfriends and her two daughters, Myrtle and Lucy, between the years of eighteen eighty-four, which was four years before the Civil War. Possibly. I don't actually know when the American Civil War started. No, it wasn't the Civil War, it was the War of Independence, eighteen eighty-eight. No, that was seventeen something, the War of Independence. Seventeen seventy-six. Yeah. I'm fucking useless with American history now. What was eighteen eighty-eight? That is definitely that is definitely a year that's in my head. So American history So eighteen eighty four eighteen eighty eighty sticks in my head for some reason. The National Geographic Society was founded. That would be it. The first ever porn mag, the National Geographic. Poor guy called Amos Miller got lynched. No, I think it's obviously I'm getting my dates mixed up. Don't worry about it. Yeah, born Brynhild Paulsdata Storsef. She's a Norwegian, clearly. She was born on November 11, 1859, in Selbu in Norway. And Brynhild was the youngest daughter of eight children. Born from stonemason Paul Peterson Storsef and Berit. Orl's daughter. She was raised on a small farm in Inbigda in Norway and grew up to be a physically very strong woman, standing at five foot nine and weighing a little over two hundred pounds. What you're telling me is she's a berserker. She would definitely be a shield maiden. Yep. There's no two ways about it. She was let's call her cuddly. there was a very common story, it's unverified, it's a bit of a rumour, that when she was about eighteen she was pregnant. And she attended a country dance, and while she was there, she was attacked by a man who kicked her in the abdomen, causing her to miscarry. And the man who came from a wealthy family was never, of course, prosecuted by the Norwegian authorities because she did not come from a wealthy family. And afterwards the locals said that Brynhild's personality drastically changed. A short time later, the man who had kicked her died of what was said to be stomach cancer. Okay, I'm not Totally sure how you give somebody stomach cancer, but Well, bear in mind it was the eighteen seventies or eighteen sixties, so the chances of them actually diagnosing anything correctly, apart from ghosts in the blood, which could be treated with cocaine about it, or leeches, they didn't really have much in the way of medicine. canker was a catch all in those days, wasn't it? Anything they didn't know about, especially around the stomach, it seems was And or if you're a woman it was the vapors. Yes. I'm fairly sure I've had the vapors once or twice over the years. Yeah, I thought I was having regular attacks of the vapors until someone told me it was amyle nitrate. dear God, the stuff we did. After this chap died of what was said to be stomach cancer, but we can Talk about that later if we wish. She then went on to work as a servant on a wealthy farm for the next several years. And then in 1881, following her sister's example, who had emigrated to America earlier, Brynhild moved to the United States, where she assumed a more American style name, Belle, and she made her way to Chicago, Illinois, where she again worked as a servant for a time. Now I'm guessing that was quite common. in the late eighteen hundreds, while America was still a young nation and people were looking for a new world and a better way of life, especially in places like Scandinavia where I mean you can imagine a hundred and fifty years ago the life here would be very, very physically demanding and unrewarding as well. If you were a a basic farmer with eight children, times are gonna be tough. What Why did the Vikings go Vikinger in the first place? Lack of land, lack of resources and you know, snow seven months of the year. Yeah, it was basically a boys' night out. Yeah, but it's the same social circumstances, isn't there? Too many people, not enough resources. Yeah, and you know, it's the grass is always greener and in Scandinavia's country it's fucking true. Absolutely. But in eighteen eighty four, Gunnis married And you're gonna love this name and it is a good Norwegian name. Mads Albert Sorensen. Mads Albert Sorensen. Yeah. In Chicago. And two years later they opened a candy store that wasn't very successful. Not long after they discovered it wasn't very successful, both their home and the store mysteriously burned down. Funny that. It can happen. The couple collected the insurance money and they bought a new house. Now between them the pair had four children, Caroline, Axel, Myrtle and Lucy. Now Caroline and Axel died as infants from acute colitis, the symptoms of which nausea, fever, diarrhea, and lower abdominable pain and cramping, possibly the same as stomach cancer, are also symptoms of many forms of poisoning. Now they also collected life insurance policies for both children. that's handy. Well, I mean it's very re it's either very responsible parenting or it's family planning. Are these his kids or her kids? They're both their kids. okay. they had four kids together, right? Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, I should have said the pair, but I yeah, I should have said together, not between them. On july thirtieth, in nineteen hundred, that was the first year of King Edward the Eighth. because I think Queen Victoria ruled until eighteen ninety nine. That sounds right, yeah. Albert Sorensen died On the one day, right, I get this, this is very, very happy coincidence. On the one day that his two life insurance policies overlapped. His old one, it was his last day, and his new one, it was his first day. Right. So there was only one day where she could actually cash both of them. Yeah. And it happened to be June the thirteenth, nineteen hundred, and he happily died on that very day, which was fucking lucky. What an amazing husband. I know, very thoughtful and also what a lucky lady. I mean she could have been left high and dry with only the insurance from a candy shop, a house and two kids to live on. On june thirteenth, two days later, Gunnis and her family were counted on the United States Census in Chicago, recording her as the mother of four children, of whom only two were living Myrtle A and Lucy B. Also counted was an adopted ten year old girl identified as Morgan Couch, but who was later known as Jenny Olson. Okay, where did she come from then? I don't know. I couldn't find out. it seems that she was either stocking up for future insurance claims or I don't know. No, no, fair enough. I mean obviously there was a you know an awful lot of waifs and strays around in any big city in those days, wasn't there? Yeah. So, you know, it it wouldn't be unusual for orphan children to be living on the street. But I'm just curious as to why she took her in because as you say, insurance claims seems to be the the only motivation so far. Well I mean we're we're conjecturing here, there's there's no there's no proof. I don't want to slander the poor woman. She could have been just an innocent coincidental freak. When he died on the day that his two life insurance policies overlapped, the first doctor to see him thought he'd suffered from strychnine poisoning. However, the Sorensen's family doctor treated him for an i for an enlarged heart, and he concluded that death had been caused by heart failure. An autopsy was considered unnecessary because the death wasn't thought suspicious. Strictly is rat poison, isn't it? So it's it's everywhere at the end. It would have been in every house. Yeah. And it would have been in a bottle with the word poison stamped on it, just in case you weren't sure. Yep. Now, though her husband's family demanded an inquiry, claiming Belle had poisoned her husband to collect on the insurance, no charges were ever filed, and in the end she was awarded $8,500, which is about $240,000 today, with which she bought a farm on the outskirts of La Porte, Indiana. And it was reported that both the boat and carriage houses burned to the ground shortly after she acquired the Okay. So you she has boat house and her carriage house. She probably needed some decorating or some furniture done. Well, who knows? Does sound like she she likes a bit of poison and a bit of flame, this girl. I'm surprised well I'm not, but I'm gonna send you a picture of the farm. So you can see what she bought with a quarter of a million dollars worth. That would get you a bloody big farm in those days, wouldn't it? I mean it it's It's a it's the land, I would imagine it was quite quite large. And was that the boat? Well I didn't see any water there. Well there's a little puddle. There there is a boating pond, but you wouldn't mean need much of a boat. Right. A paper boat. I'm really uncomfortable here. Yeah, I mean she she is unlucky with fire. I'm I'm really uncomfortable here at the moment. I'm sharing the chair with Satan. She's refusing to get off, so we've got half of it. right, she's not even on your lap. No, she's just refusing to budge. Now, as she was preparing to move from Chicago to Laporte, she became reacquainted with a recent widower named Peter Gunnis. And you can tell by her surname that they got reacquainted quite well. He was also from Norway. Gunnis, who was a butcher by profession and Bell, got married in La Porte on April the first, nineteen two. Now just one week after the ceremony. Peter's infant daughter died of uncertain causes while alone in the house with Bell. And in December 1902, Peter himself met with a tragic accident. According to Bell, he was struck on the head when a sausage grinding machine had toppled off a high shelf in the kitchen. Because they do that. My sausage grinder is always trying to fucking murder me. Yes. They are nasty pieces of cast iron. I don't understand why sausage grinders had to be made out of one piece of iridium coated titanium plated whatever eams there is. 'Cause they always weigh a fucking ton. brutal things. Yeah, and it's a two man job turning that handle. Wonder how they got it up on the shelf in the first place. That was a two man job. Yeah. Probably helped her, didn't he, poor fucker? Well when the when the coroner looked at the body No no no a bit more to the edge, love. No, as close to the edge as possible. No closer, close no too far in. Out a bit, out a bit, that's it. dear. Now sit there on that chair and have a nice cup of tea. Don't you move. I'm just going upstairs to jump up and down on the floorboards. when the coroner looked at the body, he allegedly muttered, This is a kiss of murder. Because he was Scottish. Scottish, well obviously. A load of them over there, weren't there? Yeah, fucking everywhere. Now to make matters worse, one of Belle's children told a classmate that her mother had hit her husband over the head with a cleaver. And although the authorities investigated, the formidable Bell was so convincing that again, no charges were ever filed. So a year later, Peter's brother Gust took Peter's older daughter, Swanhilde. to Wisconsin and she became the only child to have survived living with Belle. Lucky girl. Now Belle's husband's death luckily netted her another three thousand dollars, about eighty one thousand dollars in today's cash. So he happened to have life insurance as well then? Fortunately, they were foresighted enough that they thought they'd respect each other's futures, if anything untoward should happen to the other. I wonder if she was actually an insurance salesman and was getting commission on it as well. I like to think she was, and I can almost guarantee that she herself carried no fucking risk. No, I beg you, no. Why waste good money on me, indeed? Indeed. Anyway, local people refused to believe that her husband could be so clumsy 'cause he'd run a pig farm on the property and he was known to be an experienced butcher. So the district coroner reviewed the case, unequivocally announced that he had been murdered and convened a coroner's jury to look into the matter. However, Gunnis successfully convinced the investigators that she was innocent of any wrongdoing. At the time, Gunnis didn't mention that she was pregnant, despite the possibility that it might have inspired sympathy. And in May 1903, Gunnis gave birth to a son that she named Philip. In late 1906, Belle told neighbours that her foster daughter, Jenny Olsen, if you remember, had gone away to a Lutheran college in Los Angeles. Jenny's body would later be found buried on her adoptive mother's property. So she was not an insurance layaway, but she definitely came to a sad end. thank God Satan's left. I've got I've I've only got one butt cheek. The other one is completely and utterly gone to sleep. It's been a while since I've heard words like that out of anybody. In nineteen seven she employed a farmhand called Ray Lampier to help with the chores. However, words soon spread that her relationship with Lampier was more than strictly professional. And when drinking life insurance, clearly. I'm gonna send you a picture of Ray so that you can see that he is indeed a bit of a Lafario. Okay. He looks fucking terrified. He does. I was thinking to myself, you know, was this yet another person who was getting bullied into having a relationship with her? when he was drinking, he would often boast of sleeping with his employer. Which came as a surprise to those who only saw Belle as the quite burly woman who liked to dress in men's overalls and do her own hogwitchering. But there was another side to the woman that Lampier saw, and soon the local folk would as well. Lampier wouldn't be enough for our Belle, she wanted something more, and soon began to look for new suitors by inserting the following advertisement in the Love Lawn column of newspapers in large Midwestern cities. Personal Comely Widow, who owns a large farm in one of the finest districts in LaPort County, Indiana, desires to make the acquaintance of a gentleman, equally well provided, with a view of joining fortunes. No replies by letter considered unless Sender is willing to follow answer with a personal visit. Triflers need not apply. She's fishing. She is fishing and I mean it is a phishing email, basically. considering that the new local newspaper personal columns was the social media of the times. Yep. I'm gonna show you 'cause you must be thinking by now that although she was as we would refer refer to her today as chunky, she's obviously a very attractive lady because how else could you keep attracting all these Well, l large tracts of land would do it. Okay, I mean, you know, she's not horrendous. I mean I mean you know, if you're a fifty year old widower with with a bit of money looking for somebody to warm your bed and she happens to have large tracts of land, then you know, I can see her getting suitors, absolutely. I can certainly see why Ray looks so fucking terrified in that. She reminds me of my grandmother. She looks as though she wants to jump out and smack me around the chops. She's got a face She's definitely formidable. She's got a face like a bulldog licking piss off a nettle. Yeah, I think that's a fairly She's got a face like a smacked ass. No, I I don't want to be mean, but I think the land is the most attractive proposition about her. absolutely. But anyway, several middle aged men of means. Responded to Gunis' ads, and within no time whatsoever, she was often seen going for carriage rides with strangers on Sunday afternoons. Now she wore the finest clothing on those occasions, and her hair was adorned in the latest style, usually accompanied by a handsome man she was unrecognisable from the rough farm woman that locals were used to seeing. And one of these men was John Mo, who arrived from Elbow Lake in Minnesota. He'd bought more than a thousand dollars with him. To pay off her mortgage, or so he told neighbours, to whom Gunnis introduced him as her cousin. Okay. And he disappeared from her farm within a week of his arrival. A thousand dollars cash, I presume, he turned up with then. They didn't have like Swish or PayPal in those days. So I'm guessing it was probably cash. Yeah. Did they find him near the adopted stepdaughter? not as far as I'm aware. But next came George Anderson from Takio, Missouri, who said he would pay off the mortgage if they decided to wed. Now late that same night while sleeping in the guest room, Anderson awoke startled to see Belle standing over him, peering into his eyes and holding a candle in her hand. He later stated, 'cause he got away, that the expression on her face was so sinister and murderous that he let out a loud yell and And she immediately ran from the room without uttering a single word. Feeling terrified and uncomfortable, that see me, I would have totally fucking misread the room. I would have just pulled back the covers and gone, Come on in, sweet pence. But maybe that would have worked. yeah, maybe. For a little while. Until you paid the mortgage. Two minutes. Two and a half if I'd had a drink. He quit anyway, he quickly jumped out of bed and threw on his clothes, and without saying goodbye, he fled the house and ran away, getting on the first train and heading back to Missouri. He never returned for his belongings, nor did he ever speak to Guness again. Whether or not he carried his cash away with him, I have no idea. The suitors kept coming, but none except for the lucky Anderson ever left the Guness farm. In the meantime, she began ordering large trunks to be delivered, kept the shutters of her home closed day and night, and kept mainly to herself. Trunks, closed curtains. and she butchers her own pigs. Yep, and has a propensity to light matches and claim insurance. Ouler B. Boodsberg, an elderly widower from Lola in Wisconsin, he appeared next. And he was last seen alive. at the La Porte Savings Bank on April the sixth, nineteen seven, when he mortgaged his Wisconsin land there, signed over a deed, and obtained several thousand dollars in cash. Now Budsberg's sons had no idea that their father had gone off to visit Gunis, and when they finally discovered his destination, they wrote to her, and she promptly responded saying that she had never even met her father. That would it would seem to be the the the the best first punt under the circumstances. Yeah. No idea, Your Honor. Yes. Several other middle aged men appeared and disappeared in brief visits to the Gunes farm throughout nineteen seven, and then finally in in December nineteen seven, Andrew Helgelion, a bachelor farmer from Aberdeen, South Dakota, wrote to her and was warmly received. The pair exchanged many letters. until a letter arrived that overwhelmed Helgelion, written in Gunis's careful handwriting, and dated january thirteenth, nineteen eight. This letter was later found at the Helgelion farm, and it read Tw dearest friend in the world. No woman in the world is happier than I am. I know that you are now to come to me and be my own. I can tell from your letters that you are the man that I want. It does not take one long to tell when to like a person, and you I like better than anyone else in the world. Think how we will enjoy each other's company. You the sweetest man in the whole world, we will be all alone with each other. Can you conceive of anything nicer? I think of you constantly. When I hear your name mentioned, and this is when one of the dear children speaks of you, or I hear myself humming it. With the words of an old love song, it is beautiful music to my ears. My heart beats in wild rapture for you, my Andrew. my god. He's called Andrew. Yeah. I love you. Come prepared to stay forever. I'm trying to big her up. But you know, that's that's as as Love Letters Go from nineteen seven, that's not not bad bad effort. I I find that last sentence terrifying though. The last sentence is, but then we you know, we have certain knowledge here, he doesn't. I mean, the the merest smidge of a background check on this bitch would let you know that that you need to go in with full red flags waving. yeah. I I suspect that the vast majority of people at that point in time didn't even know the term background check, did they? No. Where to start, you know? But I mean there must have been rumors around town about the various comings and goings and disappearances of various children, husbands and boyfriends. And she did have a habit of also advertising in Norwegian American newspapers. She was a a typical psychopath insofar as she knew her victim type. Yeah. And she was aiming for a lonely Norwegian man who was looking for not only companionship, but a taste of home. A taste of home. Yeah. He would come home to traditional Norwegian snow soup or whatever the fuck they eat over there. I should know really, but yeah, I don't. Anyway, at this time, Belle started to have problems with Old Ray, if you remember Ray, the terrified farmhand. Yeah, who's still running. I in my head he's still running. He's still he's still going, but he he was deeply in love with Guness. And he performed any chore for her, no matter how gruesome. And he was deeply jealous of the many men who arrived Urta Court's employer. And he'd endured most of these attentive strangers up to this time. But when he was introduced to Andrew Helgelian, Bell's new husband to be, he made a bit of a scene, and Bell promptly fired him on February the third, nineteen eight. A few days later, Helgelion was gone, but Gunes appeared at the bank to make an additional twelve hundred dollar deposit. So hang on in So the guy who she was employing who she'd been having sexual liaisons with, he's still around through all of these disappearances. Yes. Yeah, but he he was blind he was blinded by his love and lust. Yeah, okay. And he mentioned that he might have been an accomplice of any of this then? No, and if you look at those mince pies, I mean it looks like he wouldn't really have a clue what's going on under his nose anyway. Look at his mustache. If he could see that mustache, he would definitely do something about it. Indeed. In fact, he might have just caught sight of it in the mirror and that's what caused his face to take on that expression. Jesus, what's that? Anyway, shortly after dispensing with Lampier, she presented herself at the La Porte County Courthouse, declaring that her former employee was not in his right mind and was a menace to the public. And somehow she convinced local authorities to hold a sanity hearing. She's very manipulative, this woman. She is a true psychopath. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But y you know, she's almost a th there's got to be a charm to her from the the letter she wrote. She sounds like she's very articulate. And you know, she does sound like she's very good at charming men. And incredibly manipulative. Yes. Luckily, Lampier was pronounced sane and released. And Goodis was back a few days later though, to complain to the sheriff that Lampier had visited her farm and argued with her. She contended that he posed a threat to her family and she had him arrested for trespassing. Now despite the arrest, Lampier returned again and again to see her, but she drove him away. He confided to a neighbouring farmer on one occasion, Helgellian won't bother me no more. We fixed him for keeps. We, huh? so it comes out. So he probably was an unwilling accomplice. I w I mean, I don't know, it's just conjecture, but I'm thinking now that he was so deeply enamoured with her that he would have done anything and it if it meant putting up with other suitors and helping to dispose of them, knowing that he would still be around, he probably thought that was a fair deal. Well, you know doubt she was, you know, whispering sweet nothings in his ear, playing him along. I think it was probably more to do with the blowjobs. Well there there'd be that as well. you know, I'm assuming that he was amply rewarded for for you know his assistance. yeah, she's got him wrapped around her little finger, hasn't she? Yeah, she's in charge. The bell of the ball. For Helgellian's brother, Ace is the body count by by this point as well. I mean I lost count after six and then there's numerous men, so probably up to twenty. I'm gonna give you a list later on. with Not exactly a full count because nobody's sure, but a a fairly good estimate. Helgellian's brother Aesol, for him this matter was far from over. He was disturbed when Andrew refer refused sorry. I need to break these lips in. They're still frozen from going to work on I thought I was gonna die on Tuesday when I went to work. I live a four minute drive from work now. It took me twenty-five minutes to get there. And I and I nearly went off the road about six times. And then walking from my car to the job, from the car park to the job, it was like an Arctic trek. I it was I've I've never ever experienced anything like it. I can't even describe it. I w I was I was close to just lying down in the snow and giving up. I thought, fuck it, if I just lie down someone'll pick me up and carry me in. I I d I know that feeling. And when I was a kid we got stranded about Four miles from home in a blizzard and we had to walk. And despite we're walking through the village, the last mile or so was through the village. And we were so stupid with cold, it never occurred to us that we could have knocked on any door in the village. And they would have let you in. And they would have let us in. We just kept going. And my brother, he was younger than me, so I was well, my brother would have been about ten, and all he wanted to do was lie down and go to sleep. Yeah. It was you know, my father and my mother had to keep dragging him back to his feet and it was yeah, you know, it was terrifying. Yeah, because that is the first sign of hypothermia. Yeah. Or one of the first signs of hypothermia. It's when your body's starts to shut down to preserve energy and heat for the organs. Yeah. stop walking so we can keep the liver warm. It's sort of self defeating, but that's the way absolutely. But then apparently the last stage is is that you think you're hot and take all your clothes off. Yeah, because that's your that's your Sent common sense going, we might as well just get this over with. Yeah, well your body it's just you're so cold your body can't tell the difference now. It's like extreme cold and extreme heat. The body reacts much the same. We were when when it first dropped to minus fifteen from we we started the winter at about minus five, which is nothing. I I mean I don't use gloves and I very rarely wear a coat if I'm going shopping or something, 'cause I'm only going to the car and then from the car to the shop. So I just put a hoodie on. But we finished work at eleven twenty in the evening and when I got to the car it was like an icicle. So I had to scrape the windscreen, lift the wipers, get the ice off the wipers, scrape all the windows and sweep snow off the car. And when I got in the in the car, my fingers were so fucking cold that I thought I had frostbite. I they were the pain was intense. Ouch. I've got a heated steering wheel. And I turned it on and I couldn't get it hot quick enough. had the heated seats on and I still couldn't feel my fingers when I got home. I couldn't get the my key in the door. It was it was fucking painful. Do you wear a hat these days though? No. Still don't wear a hat. No. I remember back in the days in Soho when it you know, exe believe it or not, even in Soho it can get the minus figures and you never wore a hat. No. I was proud of my dome. Yeah, no, no. I've got you know, I've been shaving my head since I was twenty eight. So I'm with you there, but you know, I carry a beanie with me because when my ears get nippy, it's time to put a hat on. No, but I always go by the by the old adage that you're only a h a hand wave away from a cab. Well this is true in Soho. Not so true where you live now, I don't imagine. No, it's that's right. But I mean I never I mean you always drive wherever you're going. It is so I'm only ever walking to the car or from the car. Yeah. It's not like I ever go out for a stroll 'cause only lunatics would go out for a stroll around here. Yes. Or jogging at five in the morning. I there is a woman who amazes the fuck out of me. When I'm on the early shift I start at six thirty and I usually get to work forty five minutes early so I can sit down, have a cup of tea, have a chat with a few people. So about five thirty in the morning I'm driving past this road and there's always this girl jogging and she's always pushing one of those three wheeled prams. What? With a baby in it. What? At five in the morning. Yes. In minus minus temperatures. Yes. And you know, it's common practice here to leave kids outside in the pram in the winter with a sheepskin cover and to let them get some fresh air. It's it's normal practice. Yes, I heard it I've heard about that. I mean we even did it with my daughter a few times when she was little. we did it to get rid of excess mouths to feed. No, the wife got got it in her head that it would be you know. I mean I mean most of survive, so there must be something to it. Well, you know, you're wandering around in a hoodie in minus fifteen, so yeah, clearly it's it you know, it doesn't it as you say, it's the wind. Yeah. You know, if you put out and there's no wind and they're you know, they're well insulated in sheepskin and and you know vests and all of that, then it's not gonna be, you know, bad for them and they are likely to get less colds and especially, you know, in modern central heating houses, it's very easy to to end up with, you know, lurky germs living in your house that, you know, cause the sniffles. So you know, I see the sense in it, but Yeah it must help the immune system. Yeah. Anyway, back on track. before we do, let me just do this. And now a word from our sponsors. I don't know who the fuck would sponsor this episode. And a Norwegian government. Yeah, justice for women. Yeah, so anyway, when Andrew failed to return home, his brother Aesol wrote to Bell asking about his siblings' whereabouts. And Gunis wrote back telling Aesel Hegelian that his brother was not at the farm and probably went to Norway to visit relatives. Aesol wrote back saying that he did not believe his brother would do that. And he believed that his brother was still in the Laporte area. Bravely, Gunes responded if he if he wanted to come and look for his brother, she would help search. That if she was involved, Aesel should pay her for her efforts. Mash don't miss a trick, does she? I mean she she saw an opportunity and she jumped in. Yeah. Well she next presented herself to a lawyer in LaPorte named E. Lalita, telling him that she feared for her life and the life of her children. Ray Lampier, she said, had threatened to kill her and burn her house down, and she wanted to make out a will in case he went through with his threats. So the will was completed, leaving her estate to her children. However, she never went to the police to tell them about this alleged life-threatening statement. Funny that. In February 1908, Bell hired a new man to help out on the farm, a chap called Joe Maxon. A couple of months later, Max Maxon awoke in the early hours, it was April twenty eighth, nineteen eight, smelling smoke in his room on the second floor of the Gunas house. And he opened the hall door to a sheet of flames, and he screamed Gunis' name and those of her children but got no response. He slammed the door, and then, in his underdunnies, he leapt from the second story window, barely surviving the fire that was closing in around him. He raced to town to get help, but by the time it arrived, The house was already in smoke and ruins. Four bodies were found inside the house. The headless corpse of a woman and three children. Headless corpse. Fire will do that, apparently. Hmm. Okay, k keep going 'cause I'm a I'm a little baffled now. On site was County Sheriff Albert Smutzer, who had heard about Lampier's alleged threats and taken in the grisly scene, he immediately concluded, 'cause he was a sheriff, that this fire was not accidental, but arson and mudda. I assume he's suspecting Lampier now then. So He sent two of his deputies to dig into the debris, digging for the corpse's missing head, and he sent two others to arrest O. Now when the former handyman was brought in, he denied having anything to do with the fire, claiming that he wasn't near the farm when the blaze occurred. However, a neighbourhood boy said he had seen Ray running down the road from the Goonis house just before the structure erupted in flames. So Lampier was arrested and charged with murder with his criminal. How is it in the middle of bloody nowhere? Yeah. In the one half hour, fifteen minute window where you really don't want some boy to be loitering around chewing straw. There is always one. I'd like to know what the fuck they were doing out at that time and night lurking near a lady's farm. Well indeed. Anyway, his he was arrested and charged with murder, and his cries of innocence fell on deaf ears. At first Investigators believed the bodies to be Belle and her three children, Myrtle, Lucy and Philip, aged eleven, nine and five. But from the start there were questions as to whether the headless corpse was actually that of Belle. The woman in the fire was approximately five foot three tall and weighed about 125 pounds, significantly smaller than Belle Guinness. Shrinkage. Fire will do that. Yeah. Furthermore, Several neighbours and friends viewed the corpse, including two neighbouring farmers and several friends who said it was not Bell. The local dentist then stepped in, stating that he could make an identification if any dental work could be found. So the investigators began to sift through the debris, and a piece of bridge work was indeed found, and the dentist identified it as work done for Gunas. So as a result of that, the coroner, Charles Mack, officially concluded that That the adult female body discovered in the ruins was indeed Belle Gunis. See, the the CSI would be having none of this, would they? No, they would have they would have solved it in the first 22 minutes. As the investigation was ongoing, Aesor Helgellian arrived in La Porte from South Dakota and told Sheriff Smutzer that he believed his brother, Andrew, had met with foul play at Gunis' hands. He also stated that That Andrew had answered a matrimonial ad that Belle Gunis had placed in a Norwegian language newspaper. In her reply, Belle offered true love and a life of wedded bliss, but also mentioned a quick grand that she needed to pay off a mortgage. When Andrew left home, he withdrew his life savings from the bank and he was never heard from again. There's a lot of suckers out there, man. It's amazing to me that. Now, a hundred and fifty years later, it's still going on. god yeah. I mean my favourite I was telling my daughter about the other day, my favourite of all time, it was some English guy, and he got a email from some woman in Nigeria. And I mean the word Nigeria now is actually slang for scam. And he'd he'd recently inherited It's £135,000 where his mother died from some particular disease, and this woman claimed that her mother suffered the same disease and needed forty-five thousand pounds for a life-saving operation. So he gave her the forty-five grand. But I mean that's that's so benevolent of him, but what the fuck? it gets better, right? It gets better. So about six months later, he's not heard a word from this woman. He's thinking to himself, I think I may have been shafted. Gets an email from the FBI saying We think you've been conned by this woman. We can get your money back and arrest her. But we need you to lend us ninety thousand pounds so we can conduct the investigation. you're kidding me. And so he goes and gives them ninety grand. I I'm sorry that What's his number? 'Cause I need a few grand. Anyway, a few months later he phones up the FBI and of course the FBI said look, A sir, we don't investigate anything outside the USA and B, we would never ask pay up front for it. Tell me about it, you know? What's the old saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. And I mean just how stupid can you be? But there's several instances now. I mean, y I keep reading in the stupid online rags about women who were contacted by Ed Sheeran was one of them. She he saw that she was a fan from his Instagram account and he was stuck in fucking Shitzville, Arizona with his money with his money tied up and he needed he needed forty grand to complete the recording of his new album. No. Seriously and she this and he loved her of Yeah of course and they were gonna be together and everything and travel the world on his private jet but he needed that forty grand first and she fucking I mean and I mean there was a picture of the unfortunate chick. Seriously Ed Sheeran does not love you Well that y you know just I mean the very idea is just l ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, you know, a multi millionaire and he he can't get in touch with his manager. No, but the record company of holding him to ransom and doing a Taylor Swift on him. Yeah, yeah. I know, people are so gullible, man. Unbelievable. Well, I mean it is unbelievable, but unfortunately people believe it. Yeah. Anyway. People are desperate. And within two days we had I don't know how many people come in going, we're doing this parachute jump for charity. Will you sponsor us? you know, twenty quid, fifty quid. and can we get the money now to save us coming back and collecting it after the parachute jump? Yeah, right. I I would want video evidence. I want to hear the screaming. I want to be there and watch you jump out of that fucking plane. The other one I always loved, every year I used to get a phone call. Did I want to put an advert in the police benevolent association's Christmas magazine? right, yeah. Yeah, 'cause you want to attract more coppers to your pub. That's the last thing you'd ever want, even if it was a genuine police officer's benevolent name. But it's it must have backfired on when they're talking about trying to advertise in bars and clubs. Because no one wants an unauthorized number of coppers in their fucking bar. Yeah, but every landlord is very likely to think that if it buys him goodwill with the local constabulary then it's worth fifty quid. I can see that, but I dunno, I think it's self defeating. Yeah, well, you know, I mean the first year I was like, no, thank you, mate, and I'm not interested. And it it wasn't a hard sell. They moved on. But, you know, I got suspicious 'cause it was, you know, year in, year out, and And then, you know, when things were good it they stopped and then when things got economically bad, suddenly the the police benevolent fund is looking for advertising again. Yeah, it was yeah, highly shifty, but I'm sure I'm sure a lot of people gave him fifty quid. Probably. well back to the story. Otherwise we're gonna be here till Sunday and then I've got to deal with Mark. I've gotta do another one of these tomorrow morning. Yeah, your usual Sunday morning slot. I got a good one for tomorrow. Cool. We're gonna do Thomas Blood. Name rings a bell, but then Colonel Colonel Thomas Blood, in fact. Sorry? Colonel Thomas Blood. okay. Did he serve under K was he around King Charles the first or second? You're you're absolutely spot on. He was Cromwellian times. Yeah. And he was the cheeky Irishman what stole the crown jewels. right, okay, yes. Yeah, not with you now. And then it's it's Quite an entertaining story. Yeah, cool. I look forward to listening to it. So anyway, back to this story. Helgellian became even more convinced of foul play when he went out to the ruins of Belle's house and he watched as the men digging for her head turned up eight men's watches, assorted bones, and human teeth instead. He searched the property on his own, 'cause you could in those days. Yeah. There was no teeth. Yeah, they hadn't invented the do not cross tape, so And unless you see that do not cross police line tape, you're gonna cross. Of course you are. Absolutely. And he shouted to the men to start digging in the rubbish hole in Bell's hog pen. And as they began turning the earth, they found four bodies skillfully sliced apart and wrapped in oil cloth. One of those bodies did indeed belong to Andrew Helgelion. Bit odd though, why bury them i in oil skins under pigs which would quite happily eat them if you just left them there. I don't know. Perhaps she had a thing about the pigs eating the humans and then her eating the pigs. Yes is possible. Although she's quite monstrous in every other respect. I wouldn't have thought cannibalism would balk her. It doesn't, yeah. Maybe she just didn't think about it. Perhaps she hadn't seen snatch, so maybe she wasn't aware that pigs will eat. Feed of the fucking pigs, Harold. Certainly, was it the teeth and gallstones, I do believe they own it. Teeth and gallstones. Yeah. Feed the fucking pigs. I must get some fucking pigs. So just so I can say that. Feed of the fucking pigs. Later. Joe Maxon came forward with information that couldn't be ignored. He told the sheriff Is this the guy that legged it? This is the guy that legged it from the fire, yeah. He told the sheriff that Gunis had ordered him to bring loads of dirt by a wheelbarrow to a large area surrounded by a high wire fence where the hogs were fed. And Maxson said there were many deep depressions in the ground covered by dirt, and these filled in holes, Gunis had told him, contained rubbish. She wanted the ground made level. So he filled in the depressions. At the same time, several farmers who had travelled past the farm at night reported having seen Belle digging with a shovel in the hog pen. Now she's got a well travelled farm. Either she was working in her underwears or her neighbours are just a pervy bunch. It well indeed, yeah. And clearly she's right on a main road as well. Yeah. Im well, insofar as horses and carriages. Yes, but you know I'm But you would you would think that she would have heard horses and carriages approaching. Would have yeah. Yeah, as as you say, unless they were lurking. Yeah, unless they were lurking. They've got to be suspicious by now, haven't they, the local people? Well, I mean they must have been suspicious for years. Yeah. So maybe there was a lot of lurking going on. Even even today, if a a single girl has several male visitors, they'll get talked about by their neighbours. Yep. And if those visitors disappear, good lord. Anyway, Sheriff Smutzer then took a dozen men back to the farm and began to dig. And on may third, nineteen eight, the diggers unearthed the body of Jenny Olsen, who had vanished in december nineteen six. They then found the small bodies of two unidentified children. And as days progressed and the gruesome work continued, one body after another was discovered in Gunis's hog pen, and those that could be identified included. Oli B. Bootsberg of Lola, Wisconsin, who vanished in nineteen seven. Thomas Lindbow, who had left Chicago and gone to work as a hired man for Gunas three years earlier. Henry Gerholt of Scandinavia, Wisconsin, had gone to wed her a year earlier, taking fifteen hundred dollars, a watch corresponding to the one that belonged to the stash that was found with his body. And Olaf Svenherud from Chicago. John Moe of Elbow Lake, Minnesota, his watch was also found in Lampier's possession. Olaf Lindbloom, aged thirty five from Wisconsin, and Benjamin Carling of Chicago, Illinois, who was last seen by his wife in nineteen seven after telling her that he was going to La Porte to secure an investment with a wealthy widow. He had with him a thousand dollars from an insurance company and had borrowed money from several investors. In june nineteen eight, his widow was able to identify his remains from Laporte's pauper's cemetery by the contour of his skull and three missing teeth. She spent a lot of time feeling her husband's head then, presumably. I would imagine. Or perhaps he'd had some kind of accident. Yeah, head injury, yeah. Some kind of depressions. Now the unidentified bodies and unsolved mysteries that would emerge from these ruins would make headlines across the Midwest, and more reports of missing men. Began to pour in from surrounding Midwestern states, and relatives began to appear from all over the region to claim bodies. All of them told of lonely brothers, uncles, and cousins answering Bell's matrimonial ads and travelling hopefully to LaPorte with their life savings stuffed in their pockets. Some of these were undoubtedly additional victims, although they were never proven. Christy or thirty people now then. We're not finished. Christy Hilkven of Dover, Wisconsin, sold his farm and came to Laporte in 1906. Charles Nyberg, a twenty eight year old Scandinavian immigrant living in Philadelphia, told friends that he would visit Gunis in June 1906 and never returned. He had been working for a saloon keeper and took $500 with him. John H. McJunking of Corapolis, near Pittsburgh, left his wife in December 1906 after corresponding with a Laporte woman. Olaf Jensen, a Norwegian immigrant from Carroll, Indiana, wrote his relatives in 1906 that he would marry a wealthy widow at LaPorte. Bert Chase of Mishowaka, Indiana, sold his butcher shop and told friends of a wealthy widow and that he was going to look her up. His brother received a telegram, supposedly from Aberdeen, South Dakota, claiming Bert had been killed in a train wreck. His brother investigated and found that this telegram was fictitious. A hired man, Named George Bradley of Tuscola, Illinois, is alleged to have gone to La Porta to meet a widow and three children in October 1907. TJ Tiefland of Minneapolis is alleged to have come to see Gunes in 1907. Frank Ridinger, a farmer of Wakeshia, Wisconsin, came to Indiana in 1907 to marry and never returned. Emile Tell, a Swede, who From Kansas City, Missouri, is alleged to have gone to La Porte in 1907. Lee Porter of Bartonville, Oklahoma, separated from his wife and told his brother he would marry a wealthy widow at La Porte. John E. Hunter left Duquesne in Pennsylvania on november twenty fifth, nineteen seven, after telling his daughters he was going to marry a wealthy widow in northern Indiana. Abram Phillips, a railwayman of Burlington, West Virginia. Left in the winter of nineteen seven to go to northern Indiana and marry a wealthy widow, a railway watch was also found in the debris of the house. Reported other unnamed victims may have been a daughter of Mrs. H. Whitzer of Toledo, Ohio, who had attended Valparaiso University near La Porte in nineteen two. An unknown man and a woman are alleged to have disappeared in September 1906, the same night Jenny Olson went missing. Gunas claimed they were a Los Angeles professor and his wife who had taken Jenny to California. A brother of Miss Jenny Graham of Waukesha, Wisconsin, who had left her to marry a wealthy widow in La Porte but vanished. A hired man from Ohio, aged fifty, name unknown, is alleged to have disappeared, and Gunas became the heir to his horse and buggy. An unnamed man from Montana. Told people at a resort he was gonna sell Gunis his horse and buggy, which were found along with several other horses and buggies at the farm. Most of the remains found on the property couldn't be identified, and because of the crude recovery methods used in those days, the exact number of individuals unearthed on the Gooness farm is unknown, but fourteen of Bell's victims were pieced together, with several teeth, bones, and watches left over. The number murdered was estimated. to be around 40. It's a cottage industry, quite literally, isn't it? I mean, you you the list I just reeled off, 80% of those were within twelve months of each other. Jesus Christ. And that's the ones they found. That's the ones they found. Found, yeah. Bloody hell. And it I mean the the main thing you can take from this though, isn't it, is that men are stupid. I mean we we have Discuss this I mean I think I discussed it with Mark as well when we did the episode on the poisoning, that men are like more prolific serial killers, but we only think that because most men have been caught. Women are quite possibly the smarter serial killers. Well, I think their motivation is different because with a lot of men s the serial killers, you get the impression that they wanna be caught. They want people to know their story. th they've got this fucking B list celebrity complex. They want to brag about how clever and smart and tough they are. Whereas women just go, yeah, you just go to sleep, bit. Yeah yeah. I mean this is one very busy lady and she's got a lot of money in the bank now. Well clearly. Or buried under the floorboards or wherever she's keeping it, but bloody hell. Well on May the twenty second, nineteen eight, Roy Lampier was tried for murder and arson. He pled innocent to all charges, his defense hinging on the assertion that the body was not Gunas's. Lampier's lawyer, Wert Warden, Developed evidence that the bridge work that was found may have been planted. Okay. Lamphill was found guilty of arson but acquitted of murder in the end. And on November twenty sixth, nineteen eight, he was sentenced now get this for a sentence to two to twenty-one years in the state prison in Michigan City, Indiana. Okay, that's that's a big gap. That is unreasonable because Yeah. Put your head down and think right, I'll do me time, I'll be out in two. And the governor doesn't like you. Eighteen years later, you could be sitting there thinking, I could have been out in two. Yeah. I I can't imagine any judge would give such a sentence anymore. It's a very bizarre sentence. I don't think they're legally allowed to. No. There are sentencing guidelines now. Yeah. And tariffs that they have to do. Do you happen to know how long he did serve? he died, unfortunately, of tuberculosis in nineteen nine while in prison. So he was only in prison for a year. Shit. Poor fucker. I mean, you say that, but I think we're looking at an accomplice to mass murder here. Well in d indeed, but when I say poor fucker, I I kind of mean all of it. You know, he's he's obviously not very bright if not actually simple. And he's been taken you know, massively taken advantage of, clearly. He was definitely used. It doesn't strike doesn't strike me that he'd have done any of this on his own. Well there's more. Okay. Because even after his death, a few weeks after his death, a Reverend came forward with Lampier's confession before he died. And in his statement, he revealed the details of Gunissa's crimes and swore that she was still alive. He also swore to the Reverend as well as fellow convicts that he hadn't murdered anyone. However, he had helped Belle to bury many of her victims. When a victim arrived, she would make him comfortable. charming him and cooking a large meal, then she would drug his coffee, and when the man was in a stupor, she would split his head with a meat chopper. At other times she would wait for the suitor to go to bed, and then enter the bedroom by candlelight, and use chloroform on the sleeping victim. The powerful forty eight year old woman would then carry the body to the basement, where she most often dissected it, bundled the remains, and then buried them in the hog pen. She dumped the corpse into a hog scalding vat, at other times and then covered the remains with quick lime. And worse, according to Lampier, if she was overly tired, she would indeed chop up the remains and feed to the fucking pigs, Harold. Okay, so she did. Yeah, she would feed them to the hogs. Lampier also cleared up the mysterious question of the headless female corpse found in the smoking ruins of Gunis's home. Belle had lured this woman from Chicago On the pretense of hiring her as a housekeeper, only days before she decided to make her permanent escape from La Porte. Gunas, according to Lampier, had drugged the woman, then bashed in her head. Once dead, she decapitated her, tied weights to the head, and disposed of it in a swamp. She then dragged the corpse to the basement, dressed it in her own clothes, removed her false teeth, and placed them beside the headless body to ensure it would be identified as Belle Gunas. Of course, 'cause a lot of these people would have had false teeth quite young at this point, wouldn't they? early teens. Yeah. She also chloroformed her children, smothered them to death and carried them to the basement. She then torched the red s the small red brick farmhouse and fled. Lampier was supposed to wait for her at a designated place on the road after the fire was set, but she never showed up, naturally. Price. Instead she cut across open fields and disappeared into the woods. The former Handyman also stated that Belle had become a very rich woman. She'd got a bloody fortune in the bank. By his count, he said she had murdered about forty two men and had taken amounts from them ranging from a thousand dollars to thirty two thousand dollars. And by the time she disappeared, he estimated that she had accumulated more than two hundred and fifty grand through her murder schemes over the years. A considerable fortune in those days, about six point seven million today. The investigators had previously checked her bank accounts, and though a small amount was remaining in one of her savings accounts, the money in all other accounts had been completely withdrawn shortly before the fire, suggesting that the evil woman had created a great hoax and evaded the law. I was gonna say is that it was she ever found? Well, over the next several decades, Gunis was allegedly sighted in various cities nationwide, and as late as nineteen thirty one. She was reported alive and living in a Mississippi town, where she supposedly owned a great deal of property and lived as a prominent citizen. Another report in nineteen thirty one suggested that she may have been a woman known as Esther Carlson, who was arrested in Los Angeles for poisoning August Lindstrom, a Norwegian American man, on february ninth, nineteen thirty one for his money. Now the MO is right. You see, I don't you know, you often wonder why. Rich people don't just go, you know, I've got bags of money, I'm calling it a day, why would I carry on? But this woman th it's more than just the money, isn't it? I can't see her giving up. no, she knows she she clearly dislikes people. She's getting her kicks from the deed. yeah, yeah, without a doubt. So, you know, I don't see her giving it up. Now two people who had known Guness claimed to recognise her from photographs in her possession, but the identification was never proved. Carlson died on Esther Carlson, this is the alleged Esther Carlson. Yeah. she died on May the sixth, nineteen thirty one while awaiting trial. So that the photo you showed me, I suppose you know how old she was in that picture, do you? I don't. But I I would imagine not quite forty. Yeah, you know, she looks like she could be sixty in that picture, but we know that people generally aged a lot quicker in those days. You know, if they did not have face cream. So And she was born, what was it, eighteen? you're gonna make me scroll all the way back. No, no, no. Well it was eighteen eighty, wasn't it? But that's when she started a shenanigan. I think she was born in eighteen fifty something. Right, okay. So yeah, yeah, suppose she could live to be eighty something then. Yeah. Of the remains found at the murder site, the bodies of Belle's three children and several of her suitors were identified, and the adult female was never po positively identified, the corpse In the belief that the headless corpse was in fact Belle Guness, the remains were buried next to Belle's first husband, Mad Sorison, at Forest Home Cemetery in Forest Park, Illinois. Much to Mad's relief, I would imagine. Because anything is better than the bitch who killed him. Next to him for eternity. Indeed. Guy Fork's Day, two thousand and seven, with the permission of descendants of Bell's sister, the headless body was was exhumed from the grave. By a team of forensic anthropologists and graduate students from the University of Indianapolis to learn her true identity. It was initially hoped that a sealed envelope flap on a letter found at the victim's farm would contain enough DNA to be compared to that of a body. Unfortunately, it didn't, so the mystery remains unsolved. And that brings us to the end of the story of Belle Gunison. She is a right piece of work. She is indeed a right piece of work. Yeah. And as surprisingly, not as famous as I think she should be. Well, no, indeed. Indeed. Because you know, as you say, that I mean her numbers make some of the the top male serial killers seem like rank amateurs. Yeah. I mean, she's up there with Pedro Rodriguez, isn't she? You know? I mean, a completely different life story, but that's a lot. I mean Peter Sutcliffe only got to thirteen. Yeah. I mean she's made well you know, for the sound of it, early husbands, children, she could well be topping fifty. Yeah. Yeah, the estimate is exactly that. It's just an estimate. Nobody really knows what she was doing in the years before she arrived in Indiana. Yes, or the years after. Yeah. Yeah. I I am surprised that she's not better known. She could have easily doubled. Especially at the rate she was going. It was like one a week. Yeah? I mean her neighbours would spot her with a different man every Sunday on a carriage ride. I mean it'd be interesting how you know how how often did she actually post this lonely hearts thing? You know, it wouldn't surprise me if she only posted d it once. Probably once was enough to get twenty or thirty replies. Yeah, it looks like it. Looks like there was an awful lot of of lonely, desperate men kicking around at that point in time. It's not like Tinder where you where you post once and you get five replies from Nigerian girls. That is that how you meet your Nigerian girls, is it? apparently that's the way to do it. Right. I'm I'm not on Tinder, I have to say. I've never been on Tinder. of I've 'cause i you know, all everybody used to come in the bar and tell me of the horror stories of their Tinder dates and it just seemed like I mean there there are actually some Tinder murders as well, which we should probably go into at some I'm sure there are. god, yes. There's bound to be by now. And there's probably yeah, as you say, horror stories. I mean, everyone I know who's been on Tinder, if they're the worst advert in the world for them because from everything that's been told to me about Tinder, I would never, ever go on a Tinder date. It's not even a date, it's just a hook up. You might as well just go to Hampstead Heath and fuck a stranger. It's the same thing. We we the the the cops did this thing, what was it? They picked her name Angela. And we had these posters up saying that, you know, if you're being bothered or, you know, i y you're suspicious of somebody's motives or whatever, go to the bar and ask to speak to Angela. I I know about this. Yeah. She wanted to meet Angela to tell her that had she how impressed she was at the job Angela was doing. I had to break it to her that Angela didn't really exist. But on several occasions the last sort of Yeah, post well, post smartphone Tinder. Yeah. I had I had to go and speak to guys. I mean it was one guy, the poor girl, she he literally had a pinder in the corner, hands either side of her. She's looking utterly freaked out. I said, mate, what are you doing? And he said, Fuck off. I said, No, no, no, no, no. Let the girl go. It doesn't look comfortable. She's my Tinder date. well that's right. But y you appear to be holding her against her will in the corner, mate. So step away. Kidnapping is not allowed in this establishment. But I dealt with that quite a few times. For girls freaking out 'cause it's always a Tinder date and I'm not comfortable and he won't go away. So I can imagine there's all sorts of wrongness goes on because of that bloody website. Yeah. App or whatever it is. And no consequences. Well, pr I I suspect a lot less than should be. Well, I mean, most girls who get sexually assaulted won't report it. Yeah. Simply because A, they fear they won't be believed. B Police officer will say, What do you expect when you're dressed like that? And D, they're so ashamed of the fact that they fell for something so fucking blatantly stupid that they just want to forget it and get it over out of their mind as quickly as possible. no, I I suspect that of the, you know, the half dozen that came to the bar and said, Can you please help me? It was probably dozens more who left the bar with somebody they felt very, very uncomfortable with 'cause they didn't want to go at the bar and make a scene about it. Yeah. I feel sorry for everybody growing up today in the dating world. It was so much I mean, I we always say it was so much better in our day, but dating was we didn't call it dating for a start, we call it picking up chicks in the pub 'cause that's basically what we did. Yeah. It was we actually met them face to face, started a conversation, bought a drink, and if we got lucky, we didn't go home. We'd put Tempe in the phone and say, Mum, I ain't coming home tonight. Yep, yeah, no, you know, at least you know who you're you're dealing with. And at least you can go back to that pub and go, This guy I met, does anybody know him? And chances are he'll be like, yeah, he comes in here all the time. You know, you've got some point of reference for this person. He was here earlier, but he fucked off with another chick. Yeah. yeah, no, I I d it's I I I d I dipped into online dating once on that, eharmony. And I realised quite quickly that, you know, I mean I've got a mate who who's been married now for twenty two years to a a woman who's a mm fan fanatic for you two and y he's still pretending he loves you too because he lied on on their first date for getting her knickers. you know everybody tells little porky pies, but the lies people tell online, you know? I mean it was one woman it was like you know, no problem with her being forty eight or whatever she was, but she was posting pictures of herself when she was twenty eight and lying about her age. See that's just false advertising and it's no wonder that you get these letters people write or post online saying, Well I turned up on my date and this bloke went, This ain't what I signed up for and just walked out of the restaurant, left me feeling like an idiot and then you see the picture she posted as opposed to the picture that of her today and you think, Well yeah, technically he didn't go to meet you Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. You can't just post your school photos and then turn up as your fucking maternal grandmother. I was naive enough to think that people might actually be honest in online dating, but no, I discovered very quickly that they did not, so I gave threw that away. Anyway, we've got to bring this to a close 'cause otherwise I'll be editing until next Wednesday. All right. So I'd like to thank everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed the story. I know it's always hard when you say enjoy 'cause we're talking about murder, but it was a hundred and fifty years ago. And the the wounds have probably healed for most of the victims. I'm evil. But well that was it's been a pleasure. Lovely, thank you for inviting me. Yeah, thanks for joining us once again and we'll think of another subject very soon and we'll be doing this again. So in the meantime, don't forget tune in as normal to Strange Stuff Podcast where me and Mark will talk nonsense at you and We'll see you soon.