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[SPEAKER_02]: Just let the data guide you, don't come with those preconceived ideas of what you maybe think you need to change because often that is coming from a really subjective source either the way that you feel about that type of page or product.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So really putting the numbers behind that type of behavior and understanding how big of an issue that is, is that actually your biggest priority or area of opportunity and it might not be so just keep open minded as I've said.
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[SPEAKER_00]: your listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar well, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Could be channels or a big topic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I get into a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then,
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[SPEAKER_01]: After each five episodes, many series we take a week off to give you time to take action of what you've learnt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At the moment, we're spending five episodes exploring conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because the better your conversion rates, the better all your marketing performance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a key topic for us to talk about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In the first episode, we've got into trust last time we explored five mistakes you don't want to make.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This time we're getting super duper data driven and down
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do we say good old traditional conversion rate optimization?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Our guest has a wealth of knowledge and experience and will be sharing lots of advice on A, what you should do, and B, how to make what you should do even easier to manage and therefore more effective over time for your business.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She says loads of great tips and tricks and ideas, so this is a really good one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to love it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you listen to the ends.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You don't miss out on any of those tips and tricks too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with conversion rate expert Karolina Dib.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Karolina set up her own CRO consultancy in 2023 after working with mega brands, including Amazon, Mr. Porter, and the British Museum Company.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At her consultancy, she's helping independent e-commerce brands understand customer behaviour and improve website performance through customer insight, analytics and optimisation strategy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Karolina.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hi Chloe, thanks so much for having me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thrilled to be on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the world of conversion rates is such a huge space and a huge topic that I'm really looking forward to diving into it with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But first off, how did you get into this big old world of conversion rates?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, I have worked in e-commerce for the best part of 20 years, but I came to CRO via marketing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I started my career in marketing at the retailers that you mentioned.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then in 2015, I joined Amazon again in marketing, and a couple of years in, I pivoted to a customer experience product management role.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what I love there was really being able to
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[SPEAKER_02]: Elongate, though the work I'd done in the user journey side of things from my marketing experience, and I've just always been really fascinated in that kind of customer journey.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I got to work beyond getting people to a site and actually work on what they do when they get there and why and trying to improve that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I left Amazon in 2023, as you said, and I set up my
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those things you need to be able to speak, even if you're not doing the marketing, you need to be able to speak the language when you're talking to the marketers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And even if you're not doing the conversion realization, you need to be able to talk the right language.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To get it working, don't you?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess you're experienced on both sides of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It must make things a bit easy for you, especially now you're in the consultancy space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, definitely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's that holistic view of the entire end to end journey.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very conscious from my marketing experience of how people got to a site where they've come from, but also, you know, what are their minds at when they get there?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that really helps me then to kind of then take that onward bit of once they're actually on the site, what are they then doing?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So whilst your date stay very in the numbers and analytics and the feedback from the customer and all the rest of it, what's your – I guess you're guiding light and trying to create good conversion rates for a website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's all about the narrative, the story behind the numbers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: As you said, it's you know heavy analytics, lots of different data points.
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[SPEAKER_02]: For me, I like to really bring it back to that customer experience and perspective and that really helps to
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[SPEAKER_02]: humanize it for the brands that I'm working with so that they can, you know, imagine what their customer is going through and what friction they're potentially coming up against and therefore, you know, what we can do to address that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it also just helps anybody working in that space to remember that there are, you know, humans on the other side of those numbers and they're behaving in certain ways for certain reasons and getting to the root of that is always going to be super insightful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is kind of weird how in the online space we do forget the humans.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So often, you know, if you were doing a similar conversion rate piece in a department store, it would be all about whether human stands, whether human looks, whether human does this, but for some reason we seem to like forget about that in the commerce space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're not as close to those customers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're not kind of seeing them always in real life, so it's hard.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's more abstract sometimes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then of course there's the whole
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[SPEAKER_01]: The whole difficulty if you do get, you know, stand behind a human as they're doing something to then remain quiet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to take us totally down that rabbit hole, but my brain was just going, visual merchandise is in a department store telling customers off for walking the what wrong way around the store.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we wouldn't do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we do it when we're trying it and lies online.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, let's reverse out quickly out of that colder sack.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to take us into.
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[SPEAKER_01]: narrative we all know is important, but I think we all struggle on how to actually pull it together and then how to optimize it because the whole point of, you know, improve your conversion as you have to optimize things so how do you identify the net let me massive question and we'll break it down, but how do you identify that narrative and then how do you support that with data to be able to then see if it's working and then evolve it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, great question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's not relying on one data source, you know, let alone metric.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You need to really look across lots of different areas, sources, whether that's quality to feedback, quantity to feedback, and really understand that that bigger picture.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and that's easy to say but hard to do, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what we have all this data access to so much more than we've ever had, but I speak to brands all the time, we don't know what to do with those numbers, don't know what it means, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the metrics are an observation, but we need to draw out the insight and you do that by looking deeper and deeper.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, I have a brand coming to me and
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's that's a relative metric and it doesn't live in isolation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is an output of two other metrics, your traffic and your orders.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So by nature, there's a lot to even just dig into with those three metrics that you've got, but then also taking that level deeper and understanding is that being driven by a particular product.
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[SPEAKER_02]: product type is it being driven by a certain type of customer or a traffic channel or where on the site is seeing the the lowest conversion and can we take insights from that and when you start to look at things more granularly you can then draw patterns and start to see things that might be that this particular subset of products is converting below our average.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Why might that be do they share
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[SPEAKER_02]: are they from a common product type that is harder to sell online for some reason?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe those products have fewer reviews or fewer images?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when we start to look at things as I said in that granular way, we can start to identify what might be the root cause and that's where you build your hypothesis out, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And as you said, then you have to kind of test and validate that through AB testing, through launching new features and making changes on your website and seeing
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[SPEAKER_01]: So would it be fair to say that we're starting
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not trying to impose our assumed narrative top down across the whole site.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're diving into the data to see where the nuances of the conversion rate issues are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In your example, you know, a product category that's doing worse than other product categories.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then we're trying to work out some hypotheses for why that might be.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It could be that there's not enough reviews.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It could be that it's not an easy product cell online.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It could be
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[SPEAKER_01]: one of a million other things, I suspect.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then we build kind of micro narratives that then build up, is that a fair way of explaining it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, definitely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the thing you said first is really key, like not coming with that preconceived idea of what may or may not be wrong, like not trying to jump to the diagnosis or even the solution before you fully understand what that customer behavior is inferring.
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[SPEAKER_01]: got you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I loved your one of the things you said earlier, which was that the metrics or observation and we need to put out the insights, which I think that pulling out the insights is the bit that we forever struggled with in the industry, you know, or our conversion rates three.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, well done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How exciting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What does that actually mean?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we have so many different points of data and so many different metrics we can look at.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are your, what are your go-to's to then be it, to a find the right metrics look at, but also find the metrics that you can then take insights for on rather than the meaningless ones.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's that layered approach.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So firstly, you've got your performance metrics, how things like your conversion rate, your orders, your average order value, your bounce rate, all of those kinds of performance metrics.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then heat map analysis is such a valid and under kind of used tool.
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[SPEAKER_02]: to help us understand that more behavioral side and how people are engaging with the site where they're scrolling, where they're just skimming over, not even seeing or this amazing information that a brand has worked hard to put on the site.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that adds an extra layer of the why or why may that be happening?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It just adds that extra layer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then obviously there's customer research,
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[SPEAKER_02]: It can be really simple, especially for smaller medium size brands who are inherently closer to their customer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They've got such a benefit there to be able to interact with their customer through social media, through surveys, which have a ways.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that adds that anecdotal layer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That brings that story to light.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's being curious and utilizing all of the different data points and data sources that you've got at your disposal.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So building, you know, so if you've found looking at those metrics, one problematic area, you've looked at the heat maps to add the extra insight, you've had to expect some customers, you've got your hypotheses.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How are you then tapping those?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I imagine a lot of these scenarios you come up with multiple hypotheses.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you pick which one to actually test?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you test more than one at once?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can test more than one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would say one test on one area or thing at a time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you can really isolate the impact.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But often you're completely right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's more than one hypothesis and there's more than one solution too, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a slow process of iterating and testing and learning from that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But also I think even to kind of go less complicated than that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: just thinking about the potential impact the thing you're going to test is going to have.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we know that from the data, we know where on the page people are spending most of the time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So something that you can do that is going to be in a more prominent position, is going to have probably a bigger impact and be faster to test because you're going to get more eyes on that area.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it's also about being kind of clever with how you're testing it and how
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[SPEAKER_02]: and also being really clear on what is the metric that you're trying to impact.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, overarching, it's always conversion rate.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whenever I ask any brand, it's always what we want to increase our conversion rate.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, but within that, even there's so many different areas.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Our people,
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[SPEAKER_02]: adding to car and then you're having a big drop off in the later in the conversion funnel and you've got a high abandoned cart rate or is it that actually people are just failing to add to caught in the first place and those two different things can signal quite different things and again there's lots of variables as with everything but you know typically people who aren't adding to cart don't feel compelled or clear enough to do so right they don't.
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[SPEAKER_02]: get what the product benefit is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Therefore, they're not showing that intent to buy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: People who add to cart and then drop off later, that can signal a trust issue.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're interested in the product, they're showing that intent, but they're not feeling confident or reassured enough to actually check out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: See, it's interesting, isn't it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So with all these things,
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[SPEAKER_01]: it's not just about moving stuff around on the page or adding another product image.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In the people who are failing to check out, it might be a case of adding more testimonials to build the trust or it might be a case of adding a money back guarantee or something else that builds that trust right on the home page or even in your marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So as they're hitting the website with that field that then pells them right the way through the checkout.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's so multifacted.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing you, I'm going to, so how do you keep track of the results and what works?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, we all hear about AB testing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think most people failed to do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They certainly failed to do it with statistical significance as you were leading to, you know, how long it takes to get enough traffic through to do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you keep track of everything?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that the right things are being maintained and the wrong things are being
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, obviously, as you alluded to A, B testing is the way to measure the incremental impact and to ensure that you are optimizing in the direction of your customer, but I do appreciate that not every brand has the resources or appetite or budget to do that, you know, it's
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[SPEAKER_02]: it's a complex process and it can take a lot of time for teams and also I will say sometimes experimentation can slow you down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes actually the risk of rolling something out is less than the risk of kind of delaying something you actually just want to get something out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So in terms of if you're not taking a testing approach and how to kind of keep track and how to know if your changes are even having the desired impact, it would be trying to change things
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, focusing on, for example, product pages and maybe that is, as you said, building trust within a product page and kind of rolling out your, you know, best well informed solutions based on that data analytics you've done based on the heat map and based on kind of building out those hypotheses say you think, okay, well, we don't have reviews that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And as we know, reviews are a pretty standard best practice now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, the risk of rolling out reviews is, is like, marginal, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You might get some negative reviews, but we know that even negative reviews can convert better than no reviews at all.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, there's not much risk there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's very industry standard.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like go ahead and roll that out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But continue to stay curious and continue to track the impacts of that and ideally isolating those tests so that you or not test in this case when you're rolling out so you know, okay, we've seen a shift on conversion and maybe we've rolled it out on this product type or on this subset of products and we can see obviously it's not perfect because it's not a true AB test, but we can see some difference in in the way that these products are performing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's such a good advice because it's so easy to become myed in testing when you you don't actually need to, you know, if you're looking at your heat maps and you've got there's a reviews tab on the product page and everyone's clicking on it and you've got no reviews on there for whatever reason.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then you don't need to do an AV test here, is like we just need to actually drive some reviews and we need to focus on getting reviews rather than anything else at this point in time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly that and I think there can be a real tendency to overcomplicate things and it can be simple things such as like even just the effectiveness of your product description, obviously the format of your product description, that's something you can be test, but the content of it is quite quick.
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[SPEAKER_02]: to edit.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's really easy for teams to go ahead and go in and do that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You don't need development resource, but all your product descriptions convey all of the key attributes and features and benefits of that product.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If not try adding them and see what happens and you know you will probably see a positive impact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess the key thing with all of that is keep a record of when you make the changes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You need the dates, everybody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You need the dates to see if it makes
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[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I often, one of my responses whenever anyone tells me it says to me, I've got this conversion rate as it good or bad, is my take as a marketer by trade, is then to segment that conversion rate by traffic source.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is that something, I mean, I imagine someone who does what you do, you have an immediate setup in your Google Analytics for any client where you exclude all Google shopping data, for example.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, is that something something that it's a good idea to do is to segregate traffic through the website by traffic source when you're doing these analyses.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely, but I wouldn't be the only lens that I would look at it through because some traffic channels as he alluded to have a an inherently higher or lower conversion kind of value right there people coming through search are more high intent customers they are people who are proactively looking for products like yours.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it wouldn't be fair.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not comparing apples to apples to say, okay, well, socials converting like this and search is converting like this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's a really worthwhile exercise.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It can help you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It can help uncover lots of different strategy changes, even in the way that you're investing in your marketing channels.
18:39.460 --> 18:50.605
[SPEAKER_02]: but I'd also be looking at by page type, by product category and all these different lenses and that kind of granularity as I alluded to earlier is what can give you that more rounded view.
18:51.166 --> 18:55.528
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, definitely traffic, traffic channel is a key area to dissect.
18:56.108 --> 19:02.730
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure anyone's starting to do this on their website is going to find about 20 million things worth changing, you know, early on.
19:03.191 --> 19:14.915
[SPEAKER_01]: But you reach the point, you know, if you tackle one of those a month, you get 10 months in and you've done the big wins, the big volume piece is the quick testing results because of the volume coming through.
19:15.895 --> 19:19.841
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm trying to say is at what point do you go back and look at everything again?
19:20.142 --> 19:24.969
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, rather than go three years ago, we created this plan and we're going to rigidly stick to it.
19:25.189 --> 19:29.035
[SPEAKER_01]: But how often do you go back and do the whole analysis piece again?
19:29.900 --> 19:37.365
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would be looking at a baseline of similar metrics every month, let's say.
19:38.025 --> 19:41.728
[SPEAKER_02]: And that will throw up things to focus on, right?
19:42.168 --> 19:56.378
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I have a set cycle because there are so many different variables, how much traffic you're getting, what size of business, what maturity of business, also have you launched new categories, have you branched out into new product types, all of those things can,
19:57.098 --> 20:09.910
[SPEAKER_02]: warrant revisiting that entire customer journey or even just has consumer behavior and your competitors really shifted in that time because again, that can really spur a brand on to kind of need to refocus that.
20:10.391 --> 20:14.495
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think having that monthly at least touch point where you are reviewing
20:14.895 --> 20:29.480
[SPEAKER_02]: metrics in a little bit more granularity, specifically relating to conversion, all those different cuts that I've talked about and that behavioral data from heat maps, that will kind of guide you and you should let that guide you as to how often and when to be checking in on certain things.
20:29.500 --> 20:39.844
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the site is never done as you know, and it's a continual moving beast where we're not only making changes, we need to be checking in as you said,
20:43.865 --> 20:48.910
[SPEAKER_02]: but also, you know, new features coming out, competitors doing different things, changing the landscape.
20:49.030 --> 20:53.554
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, not a straightforward answer, but I wasn't expecting one.
20:55.289 --> 20:59.390
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we'd have all been skeptical if you went every five months and three days.
20:59.630 --> 21:00.871
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it needs to come back.
21:02.391 --> 21:13.595
[SPEAKER_01]: On a vaguely similar standpoint, as you're doing these tests, you're learning kind of like a rule set for the website, you know, going back to our bleedingly obvious one.
21:13.715 --> 21:16.276
[SPEAKER_01]: Reviews are a good idea, let's make sure they're always on products.
21:16.656 --> 21:21.718
[SPEAKER_01]: But you'll be learning other things as you go along that should be in a rule book for the company.
21:23.398 --> 21:37.449
[SPEAKER_01]: outside consultant field clients, which I think makes it even harder to make sure things are retained, you know, and so when the new products come on for the new season, they get the same level of copy and graphic attention.
21:38.150 --> 21:41.653
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you help people to retain that information?
21:41.713 --> 21:44.115
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're not three years later learning the same lessons again.
21:44.835 --> 21:45.816
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, great point.
21:45.996 --> 21:54.542
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think by nature, a lot of kind of features or functionality on a site that we would be working on are kind of product diagnostics.
21:54.562 --> 22:00.486
[SPEAKER_02]: So they would live on a product page on a category page on the homepage, for example, or even a checkout.
22:01.066 --> 22:04.228
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are kind of functions and features of the website.
22:04.248 --> 22:09.432
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got the other end of the spectrum, as you mentioned, which is the kind of individualized product.
22:09.852 --> 22:28.948
[SPEAKER_02]: attributes, and I think having really set processes for those things, so having an SOP on product setup, and it's not the fun stuff, it's not the sexy stuff that people care about, but it's really important, not only from a customer, it's very as point of view, also from an SEO point of view, you know, so many different kind of...
22:29.789 --> 22:56.793
[SPEAKER_02]: channels and touch points are invested in getting those foundations right and and just yeah making a process out of it a repeatable process that you know right these are the this is the format for the product descriptions it's very formulaic so also it's really easy for customers to compare between two different products because they know that the bullet points up this five bullet points the first one talks about the star of the second one talks about the material the third one talks about dimensions or size guide
22:57.853 --> 23:06.498
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's really, really clear for you as a brand to roll that out and also for the customer to compare and evaluate that product effectively.
23:06.518 --> 23:09.180
[SPEAKER_01]: That always comes back to the SOPs.
23:09.700 --> 23:10.140
[SPEAKER_01]: Always.
23:11.921 --> 23:14.483
[SPEAKER_01]: Karen, it's awesome getting all this out for me.
23:14.503 --> 23:19.206
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything really important we've missed or have we covered everything people need to know?
23:20.066 --> 23:23.569
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously we've not covered everything because we'd be here for days, but yeah, this is it.
23:23.609 --> 23:25.551
[SPEAKER_02]: I could talk about this very, really, really long time.
23:26.611 --> 23:45.527
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just say maybe like something I come across a lot in terms of obviously I'm dealing with brands all the time who are taking their first steps or coming back to conversion and I would say, yeah, just keep open-minded and don't jump to that solution and also in terms of maybe people like
23:46.027 --> 24:10.289
[SPEAKER_02]: listening to this and wondering like what are some really kind of key things that I'll see across sites and we don't really like you alluded to we don't really need to test them we know that probably a different approach would be would be better a couple of things there I would say navigation is a really key one that I do a lot of work on that it's either it sits on one at like one of two ends of a spectrum either it's too simplified and everything's hidden behind shop all
24:11.050 --> 24:14.112
[SPEAKER_02]: So as a customer, I can't see the categories that you sell.
24:14.452 --> 24:20.455
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm on a mobile, I already have to click twice just to open the menu and then go into shop all and then see your categories.
24:20.855 --> 24:23.917
[SPEAKER_02]: So bring your key categories into your top level navigation.
24:24.377 --> 24:33.202
[SPEAKER_02]: Or it's at the other end of the spectrum, which is just so overwhelming and overcomplicated and taking people down these rabbit holes of niche product categories that have like 10 products in them.
24:33.802 --> 24:34.943
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need this sweet spot.
24:34.983 --> 24:43.351
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not easy to get right, but yeah, you need to kind of surface those key categories and get really easy routes into those, but then let them use filters and other things to refine.
24:43.712 --> 24:45.754
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't take them to really really niche products.
24:46.579 --> 24:52.042
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad we asked you for an extra bit there because that's so critical and thank you, Carolina.
24:52.582 --> 24:55.123
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been brilliant picking your brains about all of this.
24:55.563 --> 25:05.888
[SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Carolinas inside a tips on conversion rates and my suggestions for other ways we can help you improve things even further in your businesses.
25:07.473 --> 25:12.775
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Carolina, so far we've gone deep into putting the numbers on customer behavior.
25:12.895 --> 25:16.777
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to ours with your insider knowledge about the whole of conversion rates.
25:17.277 --> 25:24.840
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, you'll answer can be anything to do with conversion rates, which of course does include unsurprisingly everything we've already been talking about.
25:25.360 --> 25:26.541
[SPEAKER_01]: Carolina, are you ready for these?
25:27.121 --> 25:27.742
[SPEAKER_01]: I am ready.
25:27.762 --> 25:30.284
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's start with new be advice.
25:30.384 --> 25:37.349
[SPEAKER_01]: If we even spy on someone to take their first step, which I really hope we have, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
25:38.310 --> 25:54.923
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's something I've already touched on, but just letting the data guide you don't come with those preconceived ideas of what you may be thinking needs change because often that is coming from a really subjective source either the way that you feel about that type of page or
25:56.044 --> 26:14.424
[SPEAKER_02]: Or sometimes because a loud voice has said something, so I've had a piece of customer feedback that's struck a nerve, or somebody in turn or a stakeholder said something, it's booming loud in your head, but it might be a very subjective view, and it's not necessarily the way that most of your customers think.
26:14.464 --> 26:16.246
[SPEAKER_02]: So really putting the numbers behind,
26:17.167 --> 26:26.818
[SPEAKER_02]: that type of behavior and understanding how big of an issue that is is that actually your biggest priority or area of opportunity and it might not be so just keep open-minded as I've said.
26:26.838 --> 26:27.859
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
26:28.019 --> 26:30.942
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
26:31.302 --> 26:33.405
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favorite way to improve performance?
26:33.938 --> 26:55.270
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so obviously CRO and optimization, you know, it's it by nature they go hand in hand, so obviously testing and learning as I've said, keep iterating, being really clear on what those success metrics are at a granular level, not just overarching conversion rate, but which part of the conversion funnel are you trying to impact and keep curious so.
26:55.990 --> 26:58.973
[SPEAKER_02]: customer research doesn't get enough airtime.
26:59.514 --> 27:01.035
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's loads of different ways you can do it.
27:01.055 --> 27:05.400
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't need to be a really convoluted, expensive market research piece.
27:05.560 --> 27:07.122
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be a quick survey.
27:07.722 --> 27:10.185
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we often hear what we do.
27:10.225 --> 27:11.707
[SPEAKER_02]: We hear more from the people who
27:12.247 --> 27:16.711
[SPEAKER_02]: end up purchasing from us then we do from the people who don't buy but almost it.
27:17.291 --> 27:33.224
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, again, the only way to reach those people really is by asking them so that's things like an exit intent survey, you know, they'll be people on your database or newsletter database that it haven't purchased from you to ask them through a survey because that insight is so fascinating.
27:33.245 --> 27:36.707
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the flip side of a review, you know, we hear from people at post purchase who
27:42.500 --> 27:47.150
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if someone listing wants to learn more, is there one cheap or free resource you would recommend?
27:48.150 --> 27:58.617
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to say my Instagram, I share lots of tips and advice on there, but also I'm going to recommend a tool and I've talked about it already but heat map analysis.
27:58.777 --> 28:07.624
[SPEAKER_02]: So many brands I speak to have heat maps off where installed, but don't really use it or don't know how to use it or a lot of brands, you know, don't have it to start with.
28:17.190 --> 28:21.054
[SPEAKER_02]: looking at it, just start being curious and look for it on a monthly basis.
28:21.595 --> 28:23.677
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's your Instagram handle?
28:24.318 --> 28:27.121
[SPEAKER_02]: It's Carolina, Deb Consulting, all one word.
28:27.641 --> 28:33.607
[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent, nice and easy to find, so go and make sure you're following Carolina on Instagram.
28:34.128 --> 28:39.714
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, finally crystal ball time, what's coming up in the next six to 12 months we should be getting ready for.
28:40.487 --> 28:59.675
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I mean, I've worked in the common long time and I've seen consumer behavior change so much in the past several years and I think at the moment, the cost of acquisition is just so high and I think it's probably, you know, going to increase even more, we're seeing the landscape really changing so organically it's really difficult to get cut through.
29:00.475 --> 29:18.705
[SPEAKER_02]: Organic algorithms are changing, add algorithms are changing, and these things all mean that CRO is even more important because if you're spending a lot more money than you ever have to acquire new customers, you need to make sure that you're giving yourself the best chance of converting these customers when they do eventually land on the website.
29:19.525 --> 29:25.570
[SPEAKER_02]: I do speak to a lot of brands who are running ads, but not necessarily focusing on what happens when the customer actually gets to the website.
29:25.630 --> 29:28.893
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think, you know, it's that leaky bucket analogy.
29:28.953 --> 29:36.500
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't pour loads of traffic into into a site experience that is potentially causing friction and losing customers at the first hurdle.
29:37.480 --> 29:38.341
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome advice.
29:38.882 --> 29:42.204
[SPEAKER_01]: As we expect, Carolina, we are very nearly the show.
29:42.244 --> 29:45.287
[SPEAKER_01]: So could you please at the audience now where they can get in contact with you
29:46.890 --> 29:50.133
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, my website is CarolinaDib.co.uk.
29:50.634 --> 29:55.859
[SPEAKER_02]: My Instagram handle is CarolinaDib Consulting and I'm one LinkedIn under CarolinaDib.
29:55.899 --> 29:58.601
[SPEAKER_02]: So all variations of my name are fairly easy, I think.
29:59.620 --> 29:59.920
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
30:00.000 --> 30:06.543
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Caroline, for being on and taking us into kind of, I guess the core part of conversion rate optimization.
30:07.323 --> 30:11.965
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got me wanting to go and dive off into the analytics and look at my sites in more, more detail.
30:11.985 --> 30:15.467
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sure the audience are rushing off to look at the analytics too.
30:15.527 --> 30:16.947
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for being here.
30:17.367 --> 30:18.588
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me.
30:21.069 --> 30:28.753
[SPEAKER_01]: great to get to the core of conversion rate optimization, strategy approach, projects, rulebooks and all the rest of it there with Carolina.
30:28.793 --> 30:36.958
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get links to all those things we discussed and the full transcript of the episode, plus our notes on it all and more at keepoptimizing.com.
30:37.358 --> 30:42.781
[SPEAKER_01]: You could also use our special direct website short link that's keep up to.com forward slash the number of this episode.
30:43.082 --> 30:46.564
[SPEAKER_01]: Just put that on the URL bar and you'll be redirected straight to the right page.
30:47.044 --> 30:53.148
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website, please go on sign up to our email lists so we can send you other cool stuff to help you improve your business.
30:53.828 --> 30:57.349
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast.
30:57.690 --> 31:13.136
[SPEAKER_01]: If you've enjoyed this one then do take a look at our episode 137 from a little while back with Joe Young from Unifida where we get deep into customer journey based attribution modeling which does feed in quite a lot of what we were talking about today.
31:13.856 --> 31:25.320
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find our full thread of conversion rates content by scrolling up your feed, or use the short link KeepUp.com for us to see our out-find page with it all on on the website.
31:26.040 --> 31:34.543
[SPEAKER_01]: Please do tell your fellow marketers about this show because we exist to help as many marketers as possible to improve the performance of your e-commerce marketing.
31:35.083 --> 31:38.884
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode so I can help you to keep
31:43.536 --> 31:49.551
[SPEAKER_00]: Access everything keep optimizing at keepoptimizing.com, that's with a mess, not a z.
00:00.531 --> 00:14.183
[SPEAKER_02]: Just let the data guide you, don't come with those preconceived ideas of what you maybe think you need to change because often that is coming from a really subjective source either the way that you feel about that type of page or product.
00:14.703 --> 00:26.473
[SPEAKER_02]: So really putting the numbers behind that type of behavior and understanding how big of an issue that is, is that actually your biggest priority or area of opportunity and it might not be so just keep open minded as I've said.
00:28.778 --> 00:35.736
[SPEAKER_00]: your listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
00:38.650 --> 00:39.870
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
00:39.950 --> 00:43.852
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
00:44.212 --> 00:50.314
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar well, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic.
00:50.694 --> 00:52.915
[SPEAKER_01]: Could be channels or a big topic.
00:53.715 --> 01:00.598
[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I get into a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you.
01:00.658 --> 01:01.058
[SPEAKER_01]: And then,
01:02.138 --> 01:07.502
[SPEAKER_01]: After each five episodes, many series we take a week off to give you time to take action of what you've learnt.
01:08.163 --> 01:12.266
[SPEAKER_01]: At the moment, we're spending five episodes exploring conversion rates.
01:12.826 --> 01:17.090
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the better your conversion rates, the better all your marketing performance.
01:17.170 --> 01:19.772
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a key topic for us to talk about.
01:20.712 --> 01:25.216
[SPEAKER_01]: In the first episode, we've got into trust last time we explored five mistakes you don't want to make.
01:25.336 --> 01:28.398
[SPEAKER_01]: This time we're getting super duper data driven and down
01:30.800 --> 01:33.981
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we say good old traditional conversion rate optimization?
01:34.621 --> 01:46.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Our guest has a wealth of knowledge and experience and will be sharing lots of advice on A, what you should do, and B, how to make what you should do even easier to manage and therefore more effective over time for your business.
01:47.283 --> 01:51.864
[SPEAKER_01]: She says loads of great tips and tricks and ideas, so this is a really good one.
01:51.884 --> 01:52.604
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to love it.
01:53.204 --> 01:54.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you listen to the ends.
01:54.184 --> 01:56.925
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't miss out on any of those tips and tricks too.
01:59.177 --> 02:03.359
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with conversion rate expert Karolina Dib.
02:03.679 --> 02:12.942
[SPEAKER_01]: Karolina set up her own CRO consultancy in 2023 after working with mega brands, including Amazon, Mr. Porter, and the British Museum Company.
02:13.482 --> 02:23.886
[SPEAKER_01]: At her consultancy, she's helping independent e-commerce brands understand customer behaviour and improve website performance through customer insight, analytics and optimisation strategy.
02:24.267 --> 02:25.167
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Karolina.
02:25.647 --> 02:27.548
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi Chloe, thanks so much for having me.
02:27.588 --> 02:28.428
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thrilled to be on.
02:29.309 --> 02:30.669
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you here.
02:30.749 --> 02:36.592
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the world of conversion rates is such a huge space and a huge topic that I'm really looking forward to diving into it with you.
02:36.612 --> 02:40.674
[SPEAKER_01]: But first off, how did you get into this big old world of conversion rates?
02:41.235 --> 02:47.939
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I have worked in e-commerce for the best part of 20 years, but I came to CRO via marketing.
02:47.979 --> 02:52.201
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started my career in marketing at the retailers that you mentioned.
02:53.062 --> 03:02.287
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in 2015, I joined Amazon again in marketing, and a couple of years in, I pivoted to a customer experience product management role.
03:02.847 --> 03:06.689
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I love there was really being able to
03:07.810 --> 03:17.793
[SPEAKER_02]: Elongate, though the work I'd done in the user journey side of things from my marketing experience, and I've just always been really fascinated in that kind of customer journey.
03:18.093 --> 03:26.176
[SPEAKER_02]: And I got to work beyond getting people to a site and actually work on what they do when they get there and why and trying to improve that.
03:26.756 --> 03:30.877
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I left Amazon in 2023, as you said, and I set up my
03:35.051 --> 03:41.095
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those things you need to be able to speak, even if you're not doing the marketing, you need to be able to speak the language when you're talking to the marketers.
03:41.115 --> 03:45.717
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if you're not doing the conversion realization, you need to be able to talk the right language.
03:46.578 --> 03:47.979
[SPEAKER_01]: To get it working, don't you?
03:47.999 --> 03:50.160
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess you're experienced on both sides of it.
03:50.180 --> 03:53.542
[SPEAKER_01]: It must make things a bit easy for you, especially now you're in the consultancy space.
03:53.934 --> 03:54.554
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, definitely.
03:54.614 --> 03:58.677
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's that holistic view of the entire end to end journey.
03:58.737 --> 04:07.742
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very conscious from my marketing experience of how people got to a site where they've come from, but also, you know, what are their minds at when they get there?
04:07.762 --> 04:13.266
[SPEAKER_02]: And that really helps me then to kind of then take that onward bit of once they're actually on the site, what are they then doing?
04:14.086 --> 04:27.953
[SPEAKER_01]: So whilst your date stay very in the numbers and analytics and the feedback from the customer and all the rest of it, what's your – I guess you're guiding light and trying to create good conversion rates for a website.
04:28.305 --> 04:29.146
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question.
04:29.186 --> 04:33.649
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's all about the narrative, the story behind the numbers.
04:33.849 --> 04:38.353
[SPEAKER_02]: As you said, it's you know heavy analytics, lots of different data points.
04:38.913 --> 04:47.439
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, I like to really bring it back to that customer experience and perspective and that really helps to
04:48.540 --> 04:59.302
[SPEAKER_02]: humanize it for the brands that I'm working with so that they can, you know, imagine what their customer is going through and what friction they're potentially coming up against and therefore, you know, what we can do to address that.
04:59.843 --> 05:10.705
[SPEAKER_02]: But it also just helps anybody working in that space to remember that there are, you know, humans on the other side of those numbers and they're behaving in certain ways for certain reasons and getting to the root of that is always going to be super insightful.
05:11.405 --> 05:14.906
[SPEAKER_01]: It is kind of weird how in the online space we do forget the humans.
05:15.646 --> 05:32.159
[SPEAKER_01]: So often, you know, if you were doing a similar conversion rate piece in a department store, it would be all about whether human stands, whether human looks, whether human does this, but for some reason we seem to like forget about that in the commerce space.
05:32.500 --> 05:34.161
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're not as close to those customers.
05:34.181 --> 05:36.883
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not kind of seeing them always in real life, so it's hard.
05:36.903 --> 05:38.124
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more abstract sometimes.
05:38.745 --> 05:40.926
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then of course there's the whole
05:42.057 --> 05:47.662
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole difficulty if you do get, you know, stand behind a human as they're doing something to then remain quiet.
05:49.404 --> 05:59.073
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to take us totally down that rabbit hole, but my brain was just going, visual merchandise is in a department store telling customers off for walking the what wrong way around the store.
05:59.133 --> 06:00.054
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we wouldn't do it.
06:00.194 --> 06:02.096
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we do it when we're trying it and lies online.
06:02.136 --> 06:06.280
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, let's reverse out quickly out of that colder sack.
06:06.320 --> 06:07.241
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to take us into.
06:08.799 --> 06:30.793
[SPEAKER_01]: narrative we all know is important, but I think we all struggle on how to actually pull it together and then how to optimize it because the whole point of, you know, improve your conversion as you have to optimize things so how do you identify the net let me massive question and we'll break it down, but how do you identify that narrative and then how do you support that with data to be able to then see if it's working and then evolve it.
06:31.557 --> 06:32.618
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, great question.
06:32.798 --> 06:38.041
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's not relying on one data source, you know, let alone metric.
06:38.421 --> 06:48.548
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to really look across lots of different areas, sources, whether that's quality to feedback, quantity to feedback, and really understand that that bigger picture.
06:49.028 --> 06:50.949
[SPEAKER_02]: and that's easy to say but hard to do, right?
06:51.009 --> 07:00.253
[SPEAKER_02]: So what we have all this data access to so much more than we've ever had, but I speak to brands all the time, we don't know what to do with those numbers, don't know what it means, right?
07:00.293 --> 07:08.856
[SPEAKER_02]: So the metrics are an observation, but we need to draw out the insight and you do that by looking deeper and deeper.
07:08.956 --> 07:11.157
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, I have a brand coming to me and
07:14.078 --> 07:18.099
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that's a relative metric and it doesn't live in isolation.
07:18.340 --> 07:22.041
[SPEAKER_02]: It is an output of two other metrics, your traffic and your orders.
07:22.541 --> 07:33.225
[SPEAKER_02]: So by nature, there's a lot to even just dig into with those three metrics that you've got, but then also taking that level deeper and understanding is that being driven by a particular product.
07:33.905 --> 07:54.894
[SPEAKER_02]: product type is it being driven by a certain type of customer or a traffic channel or where on the site is seeing the the lowest conversion and can we take insights from that and when you start to look at things more granularly you can then draw patterns and start to see things that might be that this particular subset of products is converting below our average.
07:55.455 --> 07:57.015
[SPEAKER_02]: Why might that be do they share
07:59.256 --> 08:03.277
[SPEAKER_02]: are they from a common product type that is harder to sell online for some reason?
08:03.897 --> 08:07.198
[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe those products have fewer reviews or fewer images?
08:07.378 --> 08:17.461
[SPEAKER_02]: And when we start to look at things as I said in that granular way, we can start to identify what might be the root cause and that's where you build your hypothesis out, right?
08:17.501 --> 08:24.723
[SPEAKER_02]: And as you said, then you have to kind of test and validate that through AB testing, through launching new features and making changes on your website and seeing
08:26.383 --> 08:31.850
[SPEAKER_01]: So would it be fair to say that we're starting
08:33.719 --> 08:39.564
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not trying to impose our assumed narrative top down across the whole site.
08:39.745 --> 08:44.989
[SPEAKER_01]: We're diving into the data to see where the nuances of the conversion rate issues are.
08:46.230 --> 08:50.134
[SPEAKER_01]: In your example, you know, a product category that's doing worse than other product categories.
08:50.594 --> 08:54.257
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we're trying to work out some hypotheses for why that might be.
08:54.297 --> 08:55.839
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be that there's not enough reviews.
08:55.879 --> 08:58.321
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be that it's not an easy product cell online.
08:58.341 --> 08:58.701
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be
08:59.682 --> 09:01.604
[SPEAKER_01]: one of a million other things, I suspect.
09:02.184 --> 09:08.009
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we build kind of micro narratives that then build up, is that a fair way of explaining it?
09:08.389 --> 09:09.109
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, definitely.
09:09.129 --> 09:24.681
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the thing you said first is really key, like not coming with that preconceived idea of what may or may not be wrong, like not trying to jump to the diagnosis or even the solution before you fully understand what that customer behavior is inferring.
09:25.722 --> 09:26.083
[SPEAKER_01]: got you.
09:26.223 --> 09:41.918
[SPEAKER_01]: And I loved your one of the things you said earlier, which was that the metrics or observation and we need to put out the insights, which I think that pulling out the insights is the bit that we forever struggled with in the industry, you know, or our conversion rates three.
09:41.938 --> 09:42.939
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, well done.
09:42.979 --> 09:43.779
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's amazing.
09:43.799 --> 09:44.400
[SPEAKER_01]: How exciting.
09:44.600 --> 09:45.962
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that actually mean?
09:46.402 --> 09:47.003
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you
09:48.873 --> 09:53.838
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we have so many different points of data and so many different metrics we can look at.
09:53.878 --> 10:03.588
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your, what are your go-to's to then be it, to a find the right metrics look at, but also find the metrics that you can then take insights for on rather than the meaningless ones.
10:04.078 --> 10:06.340
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's that layered approach.
10:06.360 --> 10:15.866
[SPEAKER_02]: So firstly, you've got your performance metrics, how things like your conversion rate, your orders, your average order value, your bounce rate, all of those kinds of performance metrics.
10:16.527 --> 10:22.351
[SPEAKER_02]: And then heat map analysis is such a valid and under kind of used tool.
10:22.831 --> 10:33.961
[SPEAKER_02]: to help us understand that more behavioral side and how people are engaging with the site where they're scrolling, where they're just skimming over, not even seeing or this amazing information that a brand has worked hard to put on the site.
10:34.422 --> 10:39.806
[SPEAKER_02]: So that adds an extra layer of the why or why may that be happening?
10:39.826 --> 10:42.609
[SPEAKER_02]: It just adds that extra layer.
10:43.249 --> 10:45.471
[SPEAKER_02]: And then obviously there's customer research,
10:47.333 --> 10:53.298
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be really simple, especially for smaller medium size brands who are inherently closer to their customer.
10:53.318 --> 11:00.304
[SPEAKER_02]: They've got such a benefit there to be able to interact with their customer through social media, through surveys, which have a ways.
11:00.945 --> 11:03.227
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that adds that anecdotal layer.
11:03.627 --> 11:06.289
[SPEAKER_02]: That brings that story to light.
11:06.589 --> 11:15.157
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's being curious and utilizing all of the different data points and data sources that you've got at your disposal.
11:16.568 --> 11:27.415
[SPEAKER_01]: So building, you know, so if you've found looking at those metrics, one problematic area, you've looked at the heat maps to add the extra insight, you've had to expect some customers, you've got your hypotheses.
11:28.375 --> 11:30.236
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you then tapping those?
11:30.256 --> 11:33.458
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I imagine a lot of these scenarios you come up with multiple hypotheses.
11:34.519 --> 11:37.281
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you pick which one to actually test?
11:37.321 --> 11:39.002
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you test more than one at once?
11:39.902 --> 11:41.042
[SPEAKER_02]: You can test more than one.
11:41.062 --> 11:44.943
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say one test on one area or thing at a time.
11:44.963 --> 11:47.184
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can really isolate the impact.
11:47.784 --> 11:49.604
[SPEAKER_02]: But often you're completely right.
11:49.624 --> 11:53.505
[SPEAKER_02]: There's more than one hypothesis and there's more than one solution too, right?
11:53.525 --> 11:58.506
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a slow process of iterating and testing and learning from that.
11:58.846 --> 12:02.907
[SPEAKER_02]: But also I think even to kind of go less complicated than that.
12:03.447 --> 12:07.689
[SPEAKER_02]: just thinking about the potential impact the thing you're going to test is going to have.
12:08.170 --> 12:13.113
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know that from the data, we know where on the page people are spending most of the time.
12:13.493 --> 12:25.620
[SPEAKER_02]: So something that you can do that is going to be in a more prominent position, is going to have probably a bigger impact and be faster to test because you're going to get more eyes on that area.
12:26.100 --> 12:30.162
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's also about being kind of clever with how you're testing it and how
12:31.523 --> 12:36.410
[SPEAKER_02]: and also being really clear on what is the metric that you're trying to impact.
12:36.490 --> 12:38.893
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, overarching, it's always conversion rate.
12:38.913 --> 12:41.516
[SPEAKER_02]: Whenever I ask any brand, it's always what we want to increase our conversion rate.
12:41.576 --> 12:45.461
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, but within that, even there's so many different areas.
12:45.581 --> 12:46.102
[SPEAKER_02]: Our people,
12:47.245 --> 13:11.225
[SPEAKER_02]: adding to car and then you're having a big drop off in the later in the conversion funnel and you've got a high abandoned cart rate or is it that actually people are just failing to add to caught in the first place and those two different things can signal quite different things and again there's lots of variables as with everything but you know typically people who aren't adding to cart don't feel compelled or clear enough to do so right they don't.
13:11.745 --> 13:13.086
[SPEAKER_02]: get what the product benefit is.
13:13.507 --> 13:15.789
[SPEAKER_02]: Therefore, they're not showing that intent to buy.
13:16.169 --> 13:20.334
[SPEAKER_02]: People who add to cart and then drop off later, that can signal a trust issue.
13:20.654 --> 13:26.319
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're interested in the product, they're showing that intent, but they're not feeling confident or reassured enough to actually check out.
13:26.960 --> 13:27.801
[SPEAKER_01]: See, it's interesting, isn't it?
13:27.821 --> 13:29.242
[SPEAKER_01]: So with all these things,
13:30.103 --> 13:35.488
[SPEAKER_01]: it's not just about moving stuff around on the page or adding another product image.
13:35.648 --> 13:50.121
[SPEAKER_01]: In the people who are failing to check out, it might be a case of adding more testimonials to build the trust or it might be a case of adding a money back guarantee or something else that builds that trust right on the home page or even in your marketing.
13:50.481 --> 13:55.526
[SPEAKER_01]: So as they're hitting the website with that field that then pells them right the way through the checkout.
13:55.546 --> 13:55.766
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's
13:56.947 --> 13:58.408
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so multifacted.
13:59.388 --> 14:05.771
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing you, I'm going to, so how do you keep track of the results and what works?
14:05.891 --> 14:08.612
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, we all hear about AB testing.
14:08.832 --> 14:10.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I think most people failed to do it.
14:10.292 --> 14:16.175
[SPEAKER_01]: They certainly failed to do it with statistical significance as you were leading to, you know, how long it takes to get enough traffic through to do it.
14:16.215 --> 14:19.276
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you keep track of everything?
14:19.336 --> 14:22.977
[SPEAKER_01]: So that the right things are being maintained and the wrong things are being
14:24.884 --> 14:41.402
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, obviously, as you alluded to A, B testing is the way to measure the incremental impact and to ensure that you are optimizing in the direction of your customer, but I do appreciate that not every brand has the resources or appetite or budget to do that, you know, it's
14:42.223 --> 14:49.746
[SPEAKER_02]: it's a complex process and it can take a lot of time for teams and also I will say sometimes experimentation can slow you down.
14:49.826 --> 14:58.990
[SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes actually the risk of rolling something out is less than the risk of kind of delaying something you actually just want to get something out.
14:59.590 --> 15:08.994
[SPEAKER_02]: So in terms of if you're not taking a testing approach and how to kind of keep track and how to know if your changes are even having the desired impact, it would be trying to change things
15:11.195 --> 15:31.765
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, focusing on, for example, product pages and maybe that is, as you said, building trust within a product page and kind of rolling out your, you know, best well informed solutions based on that data analytics you've done based on the heat map and based on kind of building out those hypotheses say you think, okay, well, we don't have reviews that.
15:32.185 --> 15:35.326
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we know, reviews are a pretty standard best practice now.
15:35.426 --> 15:39.848
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, the risk of rolling out reviews is, is like, marginal, right?
15:39.868 --> 15:45.910
[SPEAKER_02]: You might get some negative reviews, but we know that even negative reviews can convert better than no reviews at all.
15:45.990 --> 15:47.731
[SPEAKER_02]: So, there's not much risk there.
15:47.931 --> 15:49.111
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very industry standard.
15:49.131 --> 15:50.392
[SPEAKER_02]: Like go ahead and roll that out.
15:50.772 --> 16:18.438
[SPEAKER_02]: But continue to stay curious and continue to track the impacts of that and ideally isolating those tests so that you or not test in this case when you're rolling out so you know, okay, we've seen a shift on conversion and maybe we've rolled it out on this product type or on this subset of products and we can see obviously it's not perfect because it's not a true AB test, but we can see some difference in in the way that these products are performing.
16:19.536 --> 16:36.529
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's such a good advice because it's so easy to become myed in testing when you you don't actually need to, you know, if you're looking at your heat maps and you've got there's a reviews tab on the product page and everyone's clicking on it and you've got no reviews on there for whatever reason.
16:36.849 --> 16:46.497
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you don't need to do an AV test here, is like we just need to actually drive some reviews and we need to focus on getting reviews rather than anything else at this point in time.
16:47.220 --> 17:02.988
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly that and I think there can be a real tendency to overcomplicate things and it can be simple things such as like even just the effectiveness of your product description, obviously the format of your product description, that's something you can be test, but the content of it is quite quick.
17:03.228 --> 17:04.189
[SPEAKER_02]: to edit.
17:04.269 --> 17:06.511
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really easy for teams to go ahead and go in and do that.
17:06.531 --> 17:13.397
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't need development resource, but all your product descriptions convey all of the key attributes and features and benefits of that product.
17:13.757 --> 17:19.662
[SPEAKER_02]: If not try adding them and see what happens and you know you will probably see a positive impact.
17:20.163 --> 17:24.066
[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess the key thing with all of that is keep a record of when you make the changes.
17:24.086 --> 17:25.507
[SPEAKER_01]: You need the dates, everybody.
17:25.547 --> 17:27.529
[SPEAKER_01]: You need the dates to see if it makes
17:30.300 --> 17:44.452
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I often, one of my responses whenever anyone tells me it says to me, I've got this conversion rate as it good or bad, is my take as a marketer by trade, is then to segment that conversion rate by traffic source.
17:45.513 --> 17:54.846
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that something, I mean, I imagine someone who does what you do, you have an immediate setup in your Google Analytics for any client where you exclude all Google shopping data, for example.
17:54.866 --> 18:02.677
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, is that something something that it's a good idea to do is to segregate traffic through the website by traffic source when you're doing these analyses.
18:03.517 --> 18:22.277
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely, but I wouldn't be the only lens that I would look at it through because some traffic channels as he alluded to have a an inherently higher or lower conversion kind of value right there people coming through search are more high intent customers they are people who are proactively looking for products like yours.
18:22.897 --> 18:24.820
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it wouldn't be fair.
18:25.100 --> 18:29.807
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not comparing apples to apples to say, okay, well, socials converting like this and search is converting like this.
18:30.207 --> 18:31.770
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's a really worthwhile exercise.
18:31.830 --> 18:32.691
[SPEAKER_02]: It can help you.
18:33.151 --> 18:39.120
[SPEAKER_02]: It can help uncover lots of different strategy changes, even in the way that you're investing in your marketing channels.
18:39.460 --> 18:50.605
[SPEAKER_02]: but I'd also be looking at by page type, by product category and all these different lenses and that kind of granularity as I alluded to earlier is what can give you that more rounded view.
18:51.166 --> 18:55.528
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, definitely traffic, traffic channel is a key area to dissect.
18:56.108 --> 19:02.730
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure anyone's starting to do this on their website is going to find about 20 million things worth changing, you know, early on.
19:03.191 --> 19:14.915
[SPEAKER_01]: But you reach the point, you know, if you tackle one of those a month, you get 10 months in and you've done the big wins, the big volume piece is the quick testing results because of the volume coming through.
19:15.895 --> 19:19.841
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm trying to say is at what point do you go back and look at everything again?
19:20.142 --> 19:24.969
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, rather than go three years ago, we created this plan and we're going to rigidly stick to it.
19:25.189 --> 19:29.035
[SPEAKER_01]: But how often do you go back and do the whole analysis piece again?
19:29.900 --> 19:37.365
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would be looking at a baseline of similar metrics every month, let's say.
19:38.025 --> 19:41.728
[SPEAKER_02]: And that will throw up things to focus on, right?
19:42.168 --> 19:56.378
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I have a set cycle because there are so many different variables, how much traffic you're getting, what size of business, what maturity of business, also have you launched new categories, have you branched out into new product types, all of those things can,
19:57.098 --> 20:09.910
[SPEAKER_02]: warrant revisiting that entire customer journey or even just has consumer behavior and your competitors really shifted in that time because again, that can really spur a brand on to kind of need to refocus that.
20:10.391 --> 20:14.495
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think having that monthly at least touch point where you are reviewing
20:14.895 --> 20:29.480
[SPEAKER_02]: metrics in a little bit more granularity, specifically relating to conversion, all those different cuts that I've talked about and that behavioral data from heat maps, that will kind of guide you and you should let that guide you as to how often and when to be checking in on certain things.
20:29.500 --> 20:39.844
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the site is never done as you know, and it's a continual moving beast where we're not only making changes, we need to be checking in as you said,
20:43.865 --> 20:48.910
[SPEAKER_02]: but also, you know, new features coming out, competitors doing different things, changing the landscape.
20:49.030 --> 20:53.554
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, not a straightforward answer, but I wasn't expecting one.
20:55.289 --> 20:59.390
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we'd have all been skeptical if you went every five months and three days.
20:59.630 --> 21:00.871
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it needs to come back.
21:02.391 --> 21:13.595
[SPEAKER_01]: On a vaguely similar standpoint, as you're doing these tests, you're learning kind of like a rule set for the website, you know, going back to our bleedingly obvious one.
21:13.715 --> 21:16.276
[SPEAKER_01]: Reviews are a good idea, let's make sure they're always on products.
21:16.656 --> 21:21.718
[SPEAKER_01]: But you'll be learning other things as you go along that should be in a rule book for the company.
21:23.398 --> 21:37.449
[SPEAKER_01]: outside consultant field clients, which I think makes it even harder to make sure things are retained, you know, and so when the new products come on for the new season, they get the same level of copy and graphic attention.
21:38.150 --> 21:41.653
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you help people to retain that information?
21:41.713 --> 21:44.115
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're not three years later learning the same lessons again.
21:44.835 --> 21:45.816
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, great point.
21:45.996 --> 21:54.542
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think by nature, a lot of kind of features or functionality on a site that we would be working on are kind of product diagnostics.
21:54.562 --> 22:00.486
[SPEAKER_02]: So they would live on a product page on a category page on the homepage, for example, or even a checkout.
22:01.066 --> 22:04.228
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are kind of functions and features of the website.
22:04.248 --> 22:09.432
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got the other end of the spectrum, as you mentioned, which is the kind of individualized product.
22:09.852 --> 22:28.948
[SPEAKER_02]: attributes, and I think having really set processes for those things, so having an SOP on product setup, and it's not the fun stuff, it's not the sexy stuff that people care about, but it's really important, not only from a customer, it's very as point of view, also from an SEO point of view, you know, so many different kind of...
22:29.789 --> 22:56.793
[SPEAKER_02]: channels and touch points are invested in getting those foundations right and and just yeah making a process out of it a repeatable process that you know right these are the this is the format for the product descriptions it's very formulaic so also it's really easy for customers to compare between two different products because they know that the bullet points up this five bullet points the first one talks about the star of the second one talks about the material the third one talks about dimensions or size guide
22:57.853 --> 23:06.498
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's really, really clear for you as a brand to roll that out and also for the customer to compare and evaluate that product effectively.
23:06.518 --> 23:09.180
[SPEAKER_01]: That always comes back to the SOPs.
23:09.700 --> 23:10.140
[SPEAKER_01]: Always.
23:11.921 --> 23:14.483
[SPEAKER_01]: Karen, it's awesome getting all this out for me.
23:14.503 --> 23:19.206
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything really important we've missed or have we covered everything people need to know?
23:20.066 --> 23:23.569
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously we've not covered everything because we'd be here for days, but yeah, this is it.
23:23.609 --> 23:25.551
[SPEAKER_02]: I could talk about this very, really, really long time.
23:26.611 --> 23:45.527
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just say maybe like something I come across a lot in terms of obviously I'm dealing with brands all the time who are taking their first steps or coming back to conversion and I would say, yeah, just keep open-minded and don't jump to that solution and also in terms of maybe people like
23:46.027 --> 24:10.289
[SPEAKER_02]: listening to this and wondering like what are some really kind of key things that I'll see across sites and we don't really like you alluded to we don't really need to test them we know that probably a different approach would be would be better a couple of things there I would say navigation is a really key one that I do a lot of work on that it's either it sits on one at like one of two ends of a spectrum either it's too simplified and everything's hidden behind shop all
24:11.050 --> 24:14.112
[SPEAKER_02]: So as a customer, I can't see the categories that you sell.
24:14.452 --> 24:20.455
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm on a mobile, I already have to click twice just to open the menu and then go into shop all and then see your categories.
24:20.855 --> 24:23.917
[SPEAKER_02]: So bring your key categories into your top level navigation.
24:24.377 --> 24:33.202
[SPEAKER_02]: Or it's at the other end of the spectrum, which is just so overwhelming and overcomplicated and taking people down these rabbit holes of niche product categories that have like 10 products in them.
24:33.802 --> 24:34.943
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need this sweet spot.
24:34.983 --> 24:43.351
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not easy to get right, but yeah, you need to kind of surface those key categories and get really easy routes into those, but then let them use filters and other things to refine.
24:43.712 --> 24:45.754
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't take them to really really niche products.
24:46.579 --> 24:52.042
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad we asked you for an extra bit there because that's so critical and thank you, Carolina.
24:52.582 --> 24:55.123
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been brilliant picking your brains about all of this.
24:55.563 --> 25:05.888
[SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Carolinas inside a tips on conversion rates and my suggestions for other ways we can help you improve things even further in your businesses.
25:07.473 --> 25:12.775
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Carolina, so far we've gone deep into putting the numbers on customer behavior.
25:12.895 --> 25:16.777
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to ours with your insider knowledge about the whole of conversion rates.
25:17.277 --> 25:24.840
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, you'll answer can be anything to do with conversion rates, which of course does include unsurprisingly everything we've already been talking about.
25:25.360 --> 25:26.541
[SPEAKER_01]: Carolina, are you ready for these?
25:27.121 --> 25:27.742
[SPEAKER_01]: I am ready.
25:27.762 --> 25:30.284
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's start with new be advice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we even spy on someone to take their first step, which I really hope we have, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's something I've already touched on, but just letting the data guide you don't come with those preconceived ideas of what you may be thinking needs change because often that is coming from a really subjective source either the way that you feel about that type of page or
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[SPEAKER_02]: Or sometimes because a loud voice has said something, so I've had a piece of customer feedback that's struck a nerve, or somebody in turn or a stakeholder said something, it's booming loud in your head, but it might be a very subjective view, and it's not necessarily the way that most of your customers think.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So really putting the numbers behind,
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[SPEAKER_02]: that type of behavior and understanding how big of an issue that is is that actually your biggest priority or area of opportunity and it might not be so just keep open-minded as I've said.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favorite way to improve performance?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so obviously CRO and optimization, you know, it's it by nature they go hand in hand, so obviously testing and learning as I've said, keep iterating, being really clear on what those success metrics are at a granular level, not just overarching conversion rate, but which part of the conversion funnel are you trying to impact and keep curious so.
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[SPEAKER_02]: customer research doesn't get enough airtime.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And there's loads of different ways you can do it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't need to be a really convoluted, expensive market research piece.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It can be a quick survey.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we often hear what we do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We hear more from the people who
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[SPEAKER_02]: end up purchasing from us then we do from the people who don't buy but almost it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, again, the only way to reach those people really is by asking them so that's things like an exit intent survey, you know, they'll be people on your database or newsletter database that it haven't purchased from you to ask them through a survey because that insight is so fascinating.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the flip side of a review, you know, we hear from people at post purchase who
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if someone listing wants to learn more, is there one cheap or free resource you would recommend?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have to say my Instagram, I share lots of tips and advice on there, but also I'm going to recommend a tool and I've talked about it already but heat map analysis.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So many brands I speak to have heat maps off where installed, but don't really use it or don't know how to use it or a lot of brands, you know, don't have it to start with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: looking at it, just start being curious and look for it on a monthly basis.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what's your Instagram handle?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's Carolina, Deb Consulting, all one word.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent, nice and easy to find, so go and make sure you're following Carolina on Instagram.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, finally crystal ball time, what's coming up in the next six to 12 months we should be getting ready for.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I mean, I've worked in the common long time and I've seen consumer behavior change so much in the past several years and I think at the moment, the cost of acquisition is just so high and I think it's probably, you know, going to increase even more, we're seeing the landscape really changing so organically it's really difficult to get cut through.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Organic algorithms are changing, add algorithms are changing, and these things all mean that CRO is even more important because if you're spending a lot more money than you ever have to acquire new customers, you need to make sure that you're giving yourself the best chance of converting these customers when they do eventually land on the website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I do speak to a lot of brands who are running ads, but not necessarily focusing on what happens when the customer actually gets to the website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think, you know, it's that leaky bucket analogy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Don't pour loads of traffic into into a site experience that is potentially causing friction and losing customers at the first hurdle.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome advice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As we expect, Carolina, we are very nearly the show.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So could you please at the audience now where they can get in contact with you
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, my website is CarolinaDib.co.uk.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My Instagram handle is CarolinaDib Consulting and I'm one LinkedIn under CarolinaDib.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So all variations of my name are fairly easy, I think.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Caroline, for being on and taking us into kind of, I guess the core part of conversion rate optimization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You've got me wanting to go and dive off into the analytics and look at my sites in more, more detail.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sure the audience are rushing off to look at the analytics too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for being here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: great to get to the core of conversion rate optimization, strategy approach, projects, rulebooks and all the rest of it there with Carolina.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can get links to all those things we discussed and the full transcript of the episode, plus our notes on it all and more at keepoptimizing.com.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You could also use our special direct website short link that's keep up to.com forward slash the number of this episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just put that on the URL bar and you'll be redirected straight to the right page.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website, please go on sign up to our email lists so we can send you other cool stuff to help you improve your business.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you've enjoyed this one then do take a look at our episode 137 from a little while back with Joe Young from Unifida where we get deep into customer journey based attribution modeling which does feed in quite a lot of what we were talking about today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find our full thread of conversion rates content by scrolling up your feed, or use the short link KeepUp.com for us to see our out-find page with it all on on the website.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Please do tell your fellow marketers about this show because we exist to help as many marketers as possible to improve the performance of your e-commerce marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode so I can help you to keep
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[SPEAKER_00]: Access everything keep optimizing at keepoptimizing.com, that's with a mess, not a z.
