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[SPEAKER_02]: psychologically it's proven that if a website takes over three seconds to load for the first time there's a 50% chance that they will go back to the search engine result page and this is more brutal than ever before like it's nearly once wide which are term to go back to google and by the same products at one of their 20 competitors.
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[SPEAKER_00]: your listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with the format, well, what do we do here?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That could be a channel like email or SEO or it could be a big topic like the one we're doing at the moment, conversion rate optimization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I get to interview a different expert to explore another way of making that marketing method work for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then, after each five episodes, many series we take a week off, giving you time to take action on what you've learned, because quite frankly, what's the point if you don't take action.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At the moment we are all about conversion rates and as always every episode is giving you a different way to improve it and thus improve the performance of all your marketing is the joy of conversion rate improvements.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This time we are getting very practical.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are diving into the world of site speed and bounce rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: with an expert in monitoring them, what they mean, what the numbers mean, and then how to make impact from it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I learnt quite a lot in this episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I am freely willing to admit and he gives us lots of practical sensible advice of making this something we can do to both improve the SEO and the
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you make sure you listen right to the end of the episode because Yordie is sharing some very cool answers in the inside a tip section as well?
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with conversion rates expert Yordi Scrolling.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yordi is co-owner of rum vision, where he and the team are obsessed with e-commerce site speed, especially all things core web vitals, trusted by over 750 companies including loop earplugs and Suzuki, hello Yordi.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, nice to be here and really excited what is episode as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Me too, I have a feeling from our little chap before we hit record that I'm going to learn quite a bit in this one too, which is always exciting for me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So very cool to have you here talking about all of this, but before we get into core orbitals and speed and all that sort of thing, how did you get into this world of conversion rate and site performance improvement?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's quite an interesting story actually because I'm 27-year-olds now and I started working at room vision when I was set 22, so five years ago.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But before that, I was selling organic tea on my own web shop.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was just a side project, a hobby project to teach myself some stuff.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And while you're running a web shop, you need to find ways to make more money because it needs to be
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I started with SEO, I make a sure people can find me on the internet, changing the design of the website, but at some point I realized my website was pretty slow.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I started diving into the world of web performance, and yeah, this is quite an interesting rabbit hole you can dive into, because it's, it can be crazily complex, so
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[SPEAKER_02]: That was my first step in the world of web performance and at this time I was working in a grocery store and I wanted to do something else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, rarely enough, there was a LinkedIn job available for, then lots of room fishing yet.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The name of room fishing was a little bit different first.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There was no website yet.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They were trying to launch it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So,
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[SPEAKER_02]: I did a job application, no background in any or whatsoever, just besides my own website or web shop and then they hired me, this is how we build room vision over the last five years with a team of four and two years ago, I also became a co-owner of the company.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a really small field of art for our role in the world of web performance and
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[SPEAKER_01]: are very cool, congrats on being at the right place at the right time and seeing that LinkedIn post.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How different things could otherwise have been.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, your D site speed and bounce rate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I realise this is a really obvious question, but just in case anyone isn't quite aware of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why should we care about our site speed and our site bounce rate?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the most business owners know that more boundless means less conversions and a way to get less pounds is to make sure your website is observable and it can be multiple ways.
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[SPEAKER_02]: For example, the design needs to be nice, don't avoid needs to be nice, but psychologically it's proven that if a website takes over three seconds to load for the first time, there's a 50% chance that
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is more brutal than ever before, like it's literally once wiped with your term to go back to Google and buy the same products at one of their 20 competitors.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have a nice landing page experience fee and advertisement or organic search, yeah, it feels fast, it responds fast to your interactions, the chances are way bigger that people are staying on your website, just less bounce rate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously it's not just landing pages either, is it's it's it's not like if the first page loads fast will be patient with the rest of the site it's a it's right through the through the whole site journey.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one small hiccup in the whole flow like landing on our own page, you're going to collection page, product page, check out card.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If there's one friction at any of those customer journeys, it can reduce it can result in a bounce.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to make sure that you are tracking and making sure the whole flow for a user is performing in terms of the side speed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think, I suspect everyone listening as heard of core web vitals, which of course is the the critical thing we monitor for site speed these days.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get into how we go about monitoring that, can you give us the basic guide to what core web vitals is and get into this lovely acronyms, please.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so that's one of the remittals because as of today you have three core refightals, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you have the largest contentful paint.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a long entage for the biggest elements to render on a page.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So an easy example would be if you open a product page on your mobile phone, how long did it take for the first product image to be visual?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that could be the largest contentful paint.
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[SPEAKER_02]: then there's the interaction to an x-paint.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a newer co-refightal metric before that we had first input delay, which the name already says the downsize of it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's only measuring the first inputs, but you and I both know that's on a website you're not making one click with millspull.
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[SPEAKER_02]: so they've then introduced the interaction to next pane.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So when you interact with the button, how fast was the next pane feasible?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So an add-to-card button with a speeder for example.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Then there's the cumulative layout shift and this is all about the stability of a website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, let's say you are reading a news article on a website that is full of advertisements.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can often see that when you're reading through a text and an advertisement stops up in between the text, all the text will move down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's a silly example of a layout shift.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Then there are two other metrics you will often see in page with insights.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Those are not core vital metrics, but they are important for this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And one of them is time to first bite, meaning how fast the server gives back the first bite to your browser.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And their first contentful pain and the easiest way to explain their first contentful pain is a moment the page is not wide anymore.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So not the largest element just when the page is not wide anymore.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a quick run-through of the 5 metrics you'll often see on Tools Online.
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[SPEAKER_01]: nicely done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's given us enough to understand what we're talking about, but I'm sure many will want to go and dive more into those.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we'll get into it later.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we then go about monitoring core web vitals and those site speed numbers?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because if I remember when they first came out, everyone got very excited, looked once and then kind of ignored it for 12 months.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It felt like, I'm guessing we need to look a little bit more regularly than that, would that be fair to say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and this is like where the mark is moving towards.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now we're at least in a really slow pace.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a lot of ways to monitor your core of titles and web performance.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that is also what makes it difficult because I'm working 40 hours in web performance.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I know I had to look at it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're working in a SEO team or as a CRO, web performance is one of the many things you have to do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have too much time to research
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, what you'll often see is websites where you can paste your URL in some kind of field press enter and you'll get back results.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the result you can get back are two options.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One could be a synthetic test, Google Lighthouse, that's just a sort of a robots entering your websites, timing numbers and then giving you those numbers back.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But there's also the Chrome user experience report.
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[SPEAKER_02]: For example, in search console, you will also see a little bit of info about the current titles.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this is already a way better way of monitoring your web before us, because this is giving you back actual field data.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what did your users experience over the last 28 days on Google Chrome?
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[SPEAKER_02]: But as you can hear, I'm also pointing out some of the downsides of it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's the last 28 days for only Google Chrome.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're working on a bigger project where multiple development changes or whatever text changes are happening every day of the week, you want to monitor it in real time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that is where Runtools, in our case, RuntVision, stepped into to fix this gap and make sure you have all the data continuously get alert when it goes south.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can work from that angle.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is definitely me learning new stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, lighthouse essentially for anyone who's serious about their website, not worth putting your URL into any more because you're getting much better quality data through Google search console.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Would that be better that you're putting a face?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm guessing it's not quite straightforward as that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not quite correct, but I need to add something like if you go to page B insights, this Google website, you enter URL, you will get both of the results.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, the top part is correct data.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So Chrome user experience report, and then if you scroll down, you will see the Lighthouse all this SEO out, it's PWA, a gented browser nowadays, and what I can tell, like, if you're working on a staging environment and a development environment, it's fine to use Lighthouse, because you do not have any real users on a staging environment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So then it's fine to
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[SPEAKER_02]: and get sort of a checklist of what you've forgotten or what you still need to improve, whatever.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But once you go to production, so the live website, you want to look at Chrome data, so the Chrome user experience ideally to take a step further as room data, but yeah, some companies won't have to budget, but if you do have to budget, room is definitely a no brainer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But search console is also a good resource if you're getting
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing, which...
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it seems utterly ridiculous that this hadn't occurred to me, but I kind of thought like all those core web vitals, they were static numbers, you know, setting the sand, you made a change to your website and it changed, you know, the large content painful or it changed x, y, or z, and then that would stay there until you made a change to the website, but actually the real number is what the customer experiences that gets affected by all their devices, their technology, where they are in the world, they're internet connection all the rest of it, which
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[SPEAKER_01]: Seems now you've said it, seems blindingly obvious, but I'll hold my hands up and say it hadn't even occurred to me that it could be a number that very based on user experience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it can like it's even a simple as if you have like an electrical store or whatever where selling mobile devices and you have released start advertising this 300 year old Android phone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Then you will get different ways to join your website then those that are looking for the newest flagship Samsung or a new iPhone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you promote the cheaper product, then a different audience will go to your website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, the numbers of your core files can already change, and as she said, stated correctly, it's really nice that you said that the internet connection demo graphics technology, like for example, nowadays people often go for a single page application like next year's and it's perfectly far for you and me, but if you have a large part of your audience own cheap smartphones, good look to them, they will have a really hard time browsing your JavaScript website.
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[SPEAKER_01]: got you so as well as not looking at it once and ignoring it forever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We need this on our dashboards to be looking at on a regular basis especially if we're launching products to appeal to a different customer base on marketing channels that are going to appeal to a different customer base with that be a fair summary.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So then what do we do with these numbers once we've
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because especially with it, if it's going to change based on our users and what they're doing and how they're behaving, how do we keep on top and learn and make changes that are going to improve our performance based on all of this?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we make this business as usual?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's where our responsibility lies.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, we as a data vendor, like we are giving you all those cool numbers and all that, but you might not have any idea what to do with these numbers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we feel responsible for making it actionable for you as well, because just collecting data would be a waste of data, resources whatsoever.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So with our data, we run a help check and this help check tells you exactly what to do based on the data that we've collected.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it can be as simple as make sure your image has a fetch priority.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a really easy thing to implement.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it can make your largest content for paint way faster.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We write resources on our website that explain you how to deal with the fact if you're
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[SPEAKER_02]: To make it actionable, you will actually need to study a little bit like Google as a lot of awesome resources, for information as a lot of Google resources that's making it actionable should be the responsibility of your developers or the vendor you're using for the job in my opinion.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I totally get what you're coming from with that, and it's often we find with when we're changing things on a website for conversion rate optimization, we find we are
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[SPEAKER_01]: having a balancing act with the requirements of search engine optimization and we all know that site speed is usually important for search engine optimization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I would naively assume that this is one of those areas where our conversion rate optimization improvements are exactly perfect for our SEO improvements or do you find there can be a battle between those two camps when it comes to site speed?
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[SPEAKER_02]: The thing for SEO is like, you can pause or feel the core of vitals.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it's one of these two that's the case.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So when your website passes the core of vitals, you will get the SEO benefit.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for my SEO point of view, you always want to make sure that you're at least passing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But when we go to CRO, you can go further because fast and core refitals literally means that 75% of your visitors are having a good experience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But what about the older 25%?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So another downside of free data is it's on the 75% dial, the fastest 75%
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[SPEAKER_02]: that if you want to improve conversions, I think there's a bigger improvement to gain from the slowest 25% than the fastest 75% so a
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of a case again.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to our 75% with past SEO stand-down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see all right, we're in charge of this now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to see how far we can push it, which will improve everyone's results.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that would be a perfect use case of how to approach core titles.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: nice and if we're working on that 25% of difficult stuff I guess you know it's more of being clever about how the website loads but does it is it a case that you end up zeroing in on segments of specific devices or specific user cases in order to improve things further and then potentially even serving up different sites to different people?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Would it go that far?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, back in the days at Woods, I would find some cases where that would be a success case nowadays, but in the five year I've done this, I've never seen somebody pull this off because yeah, back in the days we used to have a M dot domain dot com like a mobile version or a light dot like a light version.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But that's why I say 90%.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we can make the website fast for 90% of your users and some guys for 95% but this last 5% of users might be stepping into the trim in London with 30 people around me browsing your website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: good luck optimizing for my site speed experience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is also where we as fanatics draw the line, but 90% is the gross of growth people.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's doable in Western Europe.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But as you said, we're not serving a different website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If we go to countries that are a little bit less wealthy, when network infrastructure is different,
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[SPEAKER_02]: For example, maybe like Eastern parts of the world, there you definitely don't want to serve the same website as you do in, for example, the Netherlands.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What I already said like a single page application, like next year's in a country with less resources would be a stupid idea.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But if you've already built it there, you definitely need to strip down the website, get rid of a lot of features.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's finding a balance and before you start building a new website or whatever, I would say do research based on this research, decide which tech stack might be the best for your audience in those countries.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that point on something we need to consider if we're doing the cross-border expansion activity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've kind of drifted into some side benefits of sites been improvement.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about SEO, we've talked about the cross-border improvements if we're segmenting it that way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's also quite an environmental impact, isn't there, on the world of sustainability if we're going for faster websites.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, there's some companies that ask the run fishing that fast, like if we could make a dashboard about their environmental savings, because the less kilobytes of pages, so page weights, the less it's.
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[SPEAKER_02]: sent in to the environment at your servers when loading the website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So a fast website often goes hand in hand with accessibility and environmental impact.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's definitely something with hers from some enterprise clients that are into this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Not sure why.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I understand why, but I don't know why enterprise clients specifically ask for this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe for some kind of certification for their company or something like that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's definitely an extra benefit, but yeah, it's maybe it's a little bit of a shame, like people are not coming to a room vision or ask about web-perform because they want to save the environment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a movement, people could move to a little bit more, but everything is often about earning more money, unfortunately.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So anything, Jordi, we've missed on the side of this that the audience need to know about or have we covered it all?
21:43.555 --> 21:48.358
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one side note is obviously our little friends AI.
21:48.959 --> 21:53.782
[SPEAKER_02]: So Google Lighthouse is also taking a look at your layout shift.
21:53.942 --> 21:58.866
[SPEAKER_02]: So when an AI agent goes through your website, it tends to take screenshots.
21:59.266 --> 21:59.467
[SPEAKER_02]: So
22:00.147 --> 22:08.677
[SPEAKER_02]: If it takes a screenshot, scrolls down, takes another screenshot, but during the time it's scrolled down, there was a cumulative layout here.
22:08.857 --> 22:12.000
[SPEAKER_02]: It could end up screenshoting the same stuff.
22:12.080 --> 22:18.347
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you go to Lighthouse now for your page with Insights, you will also see a little bit about agentic browsing.
22:19.148 --> 22:22.752
[SPEAKER_02]: So this one starts caring about your CLS score.
22:22.852 --> 22:31.482
[SPEAKER_02]: So for SEO, it's important for CRO or UX, but since two, three months or something, it's also important for AI.
22:31.522 --> 22:35.707
[SPEAKER_02]: So it has something to do with most of the things, but
22:36.348 --> 22:38.049
[SPEAKER_02]: People focus on it too late.
22:38.129 --> 22:52.160
[SPEAKER_02]: So my advice to anyone would be start caring about web performance in the beginning instead of when you're done because it's way more work, equals expensive, more expensive when you have to do everything in the end.
22:53.936 --> 22:57.659
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good always good advice for any of these kind of deep techy things.
22:57.759 --> 22:59.060
[SPEAKER_01]: Love that, you already thank you.
22:59.941 --> 23:04.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you already thank you so much for letting us pick your brains about all of that.
23:05.005 --> 23:15.993
[SPEAKER_01]: And list this, remember stay tuned right to the end, so you don't miss out on your these insider tips on conversion rates and my suggestions for more free resources to help you improve things even further in your businesses.
23:18.262 --> 23:22.426
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, Yordie, so far we've gone deep into site speed and bounce rates.
23:22.747 --> 23:26.810
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you get to wow us with your insider knowledge about the whole of conversion rates.
23:27.251 --> 23:34.518
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, your answer can be anything to do with conversion rates, which, of course, does include everything we've already been talking about.
23:34.898 --> 23:36.980
[SPEAKER_01]: Yordie, are you ready for the insider tips?
23:37.641 --> 23:39.443
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's ready, I say can be.
23:39.808 --> 23:40.809
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's do it.
23:40.909 --> 23:42.650
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with newbie advice.
23:42.991 --> 23:48.976
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
23:50.045 --> 24:08.182
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, and even if it's like a dummy or something, build something yourself, like if you're working for mostly e-commerce websites, build an e-commerce website yourself, even with AI, West Railway for a bit, you will understand more and more of the steps that your client needs to think about this.
24:08.422 --> 24:12.286
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you understand the client better, you can also
24:14.708 --> 24:16.230
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, try it yourself.
24:16.691 --> 24:21.096
[SPEAKER_02]: Something like this would be some solid advice that I could give to people.
24:21.797 --> 24:22.418
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
24:22.798 --> 24:23.899
[SPEAKER_01]: Get your hands dirty.
24:24.420 --> 24:24.640
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:25.622 --> 24:28.926
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
24:28.966 --> 24:31.349
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favorite way to improve performance?
24:32.682 --> 24:36.487
[SPEAKER_02]: To be honest, I visit a lot of agencies in the Netherlands.
24:36.687 --> 24:41.754
[SPEAKER_02]: We're based in the Netherlands so sometimes I take the car and drive two hours to the other side of the country.
24:41.854 --> 24:42.955
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that easy right here.
24:43.596 --> 24:45.078
[SPEAKER_02]: Then I sit next to a developer.
24:45.418 --> 24:47.381
[SPEAKER_02]: He opens his laptop or she.
24:47.821 --> 24:50.244
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we look at the performance of this website.
24:50.845 --> 25:04.437
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I can see the actual code, which you cannot see always, and then I say, like, okay, if you change this line of codes, we could improve your LCP, then they are like typing together and they push it to production.
25:05.577 --> 25:10.878
[SPEAKER_02]: And then a day later, I log in room vision and then I see an important performance improved.
25:10.898 --> 25:17.919
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in terms of favorite ways to improve, I would say, I'm a big fan of an pragmatic approach.
25:18.239 --> 25:26.521
[SPEAKER_02]: So getting things done, felidating it with data and celebrating even the smaller successes in terms of improvements.
25:27.361 --> 25:30.642
[SPEAKER_01]: We so often forget to celebrate, we know our celebrate for a split
25:33.840 --> 25:47.683
[SPEAKER_02]: And this isn't weapon form is like improving 20 milliseconds, feels not that rewarding but if you can improve 20 milliseconds 10 times in a row, you have 200 milliseconds and that is the crazy part about this.
25:48.443 --> 25:51.384
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to celebrate small improvements as well.
25:52.184 --> 25:53.524
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, completely agree with you.
25:53.744 --> 25:57.685
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone listing wants to learn more is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?
25:58.663 --> 26:03.086
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely, I have to give big props to Google.
26:03.466 --> 26:08.250
[SPEAKER_02]: They have the web.deft platform, and there's a whole course on web performance.
26:08.910 --> 26:12.352
[SPEAKER_02]: Also to room vision and any other slides we do out there.
26:12.773 --> 26:16.475
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone is crazy passionate about the topic.
26:16.835 --> 26:19.197
[SPEAKER_02]: So everyone has written crazy resources.
26:19.577 --> 26:25.922
[SPEAKER_02]: All for free, I would say you don't need to spend any money to learn web performance because the community is so passionate.
26:26.442 --> 26:31.244
[SPEAKER_02]: And one small tip, every year we have a web performance at Fentcal Lender.
26:31.425 --> 26:36.947
[SPEAKER_02]: So for 31 days in a row, the whole community comes together and starts writing pieces.
26:37.067 --> 26:42.810
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can read the morning newspaper about web performance every day in December.
26:43.050 --> 26:45.932
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is my favorite resource of the year for sure.
26:46.441 --> 26:47.902
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, very cool, where do we find that?
26:47.922 --> 26:51.825
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it just dotted on different people's websites, each December or as does it get pulled together?
26:51.845 --> 26:53.506
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's actually like one website.
26:53.566 --> 26:56.247
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's one guy that is responsible.
26:56.328 --> 27:01.411
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if you Google web performance at Fentcalander, it should be the number one result.
27:01.910 --> 27:02.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
27:02.570 --> 27:06.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Web performance advent calendar everybody and get ready for it.
27:06.592 --> 27:09.993
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just in December when you've got nothing else to do and you're a bit bored.
27:10.113 --> 27:11.613
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing's happening in the comments.
27:11.894 --> 27:12.594
[SPEAKER_01]: Go and have a read.
27:13.354 --> 27:18.896
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to read the editions from previous years as well, which should still apply to these days?
27:18.936 --> 27:21.017
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of stuff out there.
27:21.677 --> 27:23.077
[SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.
27:23.218 --> 27:24.738
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, crystal ball time.
27:24.838 --> 27:26.899
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months
27:30.853 --> 27:37.096
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the, like two, two, three years ago, this question was way easier than it is now with AI.
27:37.116 --> 27:44.378
[SPEAKER_02]: But I would say like when it comes to web performance, like we ourselves that room vision have built an MCP, that's out now.
27:44.458 --> 27:50.381
[SPEAKER_02]: So just having your agent chat with your data, looking at your account is for us.
27:50.441 --> 27:52.542
[SPEAKER_02]: The next coming six to 12 months.
27:53.702 --> 27:56.144
[SPEAKER_02]: in terms of, yeah, see a row.
27:56.705 --> 28:08.694
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say it's interesting to even know what's going to happen and how people entered buying stuff from you in the next going 6 to 12 months with TikTok shop, a gigantic shopping.
28:08.755 --> 28:10.276
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like crazy.
28:10.416 --> 28:12.438
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know what to say.
28:13.413 --> 28:26.595
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know what you mean, it's like the, I think the biggest question for this coming peak season is will it all happen with AI agents wielded by consumers or will consumers becoming to websites and where that percentage point goes?
28:27.055 --> 28:37.797
[SPEAKER_01]: I suspect it's going to be more humans on websites than some people are predicting, but I think that's going to give us huge amount of insight for what the next few years are going to look like.
28:37.817 --> 28:41.898
[SPEAKER_01]: So I totally get why, why you're saying we need to wait and see.
28:42.615 --> 28:43.638
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, Mark.
28:44.139 --> 28:46.143
[SPEAKER_01]: You already, we are very nearly into the show.
28:46.183 --> 28:51.915
[SPEAKER_01]: So, could you please at the listeners know where they can find you and rum vision if they want to find out more?
28:52.715 --> 28:56.678
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as the Chloe already said, like, my name is Yordi Schoeling.
28:56.959 --> 29:12.611
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find me a link in, I post there like once or twice a week about our products, but also about web performance findings and our company, you can find at www.vroomvision.com and a small tip for you to not just go to the website.
29:12.792 --> 29:18.336
[SPEAKER_02]: If you go to our website, there's a navigation item that says free tools and under those
29:21.979 --> 29:32.923
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you go to Coronavirus history and paste your website URL, it will actually get to see the last six months of Coronavirus data of your own website.
29:33.003 --> 29:44.247
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is pretty cool because it might be an interesting starting point to spark the conversation within your organization, which your colleagues about Coronavirus and Web Performance.
29:44.912 --> 29:45.572
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, love that.
29:45.592 --> 29:52.357
[SPEAKER_01]: So head to rumvision.com and click on the free tools to find that core web vitals history, everyone.
29:52.817 --> 29:55.258
[SPEAKER_01]: Go get distracted for the rest of the day with that.
29:55.979 --> 29:59.321
[SPEAKER_01]: You're really, thank you so much for being on the keep optimizing podcast.
29:59.341 --> 30:01.402
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been fascinating getting into all of this with you.
30:01.442 --> 30:02.863
[SPEAKER_01]: So really appreciate you being here.
30:03.543 --> 30:03.924
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
30:04.184 --> 30:05.605
[SPEAKER_02]: And thanks for having me.
30:05.685 --> 30:09.527
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that some people, a lot of people have learned something
30:16.432 --> 30:25.760
[SPEAKER_01]: So who else is willing to admit like me that they didn't realize that all those core web vitals numbers changed from user to user platform to platform?
30:26.380 --> 30:27.381
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm willing to admit it.
30:27.761 --> 30:29.363
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely, that was a big learn from me.
30:29.403 --> 30:32.645
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, kind of obvious really, but a big learn for me this time.
30:32.865 --> 30:34.166
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get
30:35.067 --> 30:42.431
[SPEAKER_01]: All those links to the things we discussed, the transcript, our notes and more at keepoptimizing.com.
30:42.512 --> 30:47.655
[SPEAKER_01]: You can use our special direct episode short link, keepopt.com forward slash the number of this episode.
30:47.735 --> 30:52.117
[SPEAKER_01]: Put that in the URL bar to go straight to the right page on the site for all the goodies about this episode.
30:52.477 --> 30:58.161
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list, so you don't miss out on any of the other things.
30:58.661 --> 31:00.224
[SPEAKER_01]: we share to help you improve your business.
31:00.824 --> 31:04.830
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Up Demising podcast.
31:05.271 --> 31:10.399
[SPEAKER_01]: If you've enjoyed this episode then do check out episode number six.
31:10.859 --> 31:12.962
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, going way, way, way back.
31:12.982 --> 31:13.303
[SPEAKER_01]: Episode
31:13.443 --> 31:27.466
[SPEAKER_01]: So number six with Luke Carthet, who's a CRO and SEO expert, who is taking us deep into the fundamentals of technical SEO, which I think directly links into this site speed in which hasn't changed that much since episode six went out.
31:27.506 --> 31:28.946
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's well worth a listen.
31:29.626 --> 31:35.667
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find our full thread of conversion rate content by scrolling up your feed or
31:40.368 --> 31:48.172
[SPEAKER_01]: Please do tell your fellow marketers about the show because we produce it to help as many marketers as possible to improve performance of their e-commerce marketing.
31:48.792 --> 31:54.395
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode, so I can help you to keep optimizing your marketing.
00:00.577 --> 00:21.745
[SPEAKER_02]: psychologically it's proven that if a website takes over three seconds to load for the first time there's a 50% chance that they will go back to the search engine result page and this is more brutal than ever before like it's nearly once wide which are term to go back to google and by the same products at one of their 20 competitors.
00:24.408 --> 00:31.313
[SPEAKER_00]: your listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
00:34.350 --> 00:35.651
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
00:35.791 --> 00:39.434
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
00:39.515 --> 00:42.197
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with the format, well, what do we do here?
00:42.257 --> 00:48.723
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
00:49.243 --> 00:56.169
[SPEAKER_01]: That could be a channel like email or SEO or it could be a big topic like the one we're doing at the moment, conversion rate optimization.
00:56.730 --> 00:59.232
[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays,
00:59.792 --> 01:05.596
[SPEAKER_01]: I get to interview a different expert to explore another way of making that marketing method work for you.
01:06.277 --> 01:15.543
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, after each five episodes, many series we take a week off, giving you time to take action on what you've learned, because quite frankly, what's the point if you don't take action.
01:16.412 --> 01:27.144
[SPEAKER_01]: At the moment we are all about conversion rates and as always every episode is giving you a different way to improve it and thus improve the performance of all your marketing is the joy of conversion rate improvements.
01:27.704 --> 01:30.067
[SPEAKER_01]: This time we are getting very practical.
01:30.467 --> 01:34.691
[SPEAKER_01]: We are diving into the world of site speed and bounce rates.
01:35.312 --> 01:43.276
[SPEAKER_01]: with an expert in monitoring them, what they mean, what the numbers mean, and then how to make impact from it.
01:43.536 --> 01:45.797
[SPEAKER_01]: I learnt quite a lot in this episode.
01:46.017 --> 01:55.041
[SPEAKER_01]: I am freely willing to admit and he gives us lots of practical sensible advice of making this something we can do to both improve the SEO and the
01:56.822 --> 02:05.180
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you make sure you listen right to the end of the episode because Yordie is sharing some very cool answers in the inside a tip section as well?
02:07.082 --> 02:11.663
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with conversion rates expert Yordi Scrolling.
02:12.163 --> 02:29.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Yordi is co-owner of rum vision, where he and the team are obsessed with e-commerce site speed, especially all things core web vitals, trusted by over 750 companies including loop earplugs and Suzuki, hello Yordi.
02:29.827 --> 02:34.208
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, nice to be here and really excited what is episode as well.
02:34.781 --> 02:41.228
[SPEAKER_01]: Me too, I have a feeling from our little chap before we hit record that I'm going to learn quite a bit in this one too, which is always exciting for me.
02:41.308 --> 02:52.381
[SPEAKER_01]: So very cool to have you here talking about all of this, but before we get into core orbitals and speed and all that sort of thing, how did you get into this world of conversion rate and site performance improvement?
02:53.023 --> 03:04.147
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's quite an interesting story actually because I'm 27-year-olds now and I started working at room vision when I was set 22, so five years ago.
03:04.767 --> 03:09.389
[SPEAKER_02]: But before that, I was selling organic tea on my own web shop.
03:09.569 --> 03:14.511
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just a side project, a hobby project to teach myself some stuff.
03:15.271 --> 03:20.613
[SPEAKER_02]: And while you're running a web shop, you need to find ways to make more money because it needs to be
03:22.054 --> 03:32.679
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started with SEO, I make a sure people can find me on the internet, changing the design of the website, but at some point I realized my website was pretty slow.
03:33.259 --> 03:45.484
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started diving into the world of web performance, and yeah, this is quite an interesting rabbit hole you can dive into, because it's, it can be crazily complex, so
03:46.725 --> 03:55.728
[SPEAKER_02]: That was my first step in the world of web performance and at this time I was working in a grocery store and I wanted to do something else.
03:55.889 --> 04:02.551
[SPEAKER_02]: So, rarely enough, there was a LinkedIn job available for, then lots of room fishing yet.
04:02.771 --> 04:05.432
[SPEAKER_02]: The name of room fishing was a little bit different first.
04:05.952 --> 04:07.253
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no website yet.
04:07.593 --> 04:09.034
[SPEAKER_02]: They were trying to launch it.
04:09.094 --> 04:09.354
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
04:10.134 --> 04:29.131
[SPEAKER_02]: I did a job application, no background in any or whatsoever, just besides my own website or web shop and then they hired me, this is how we build room vision over the last five years with a team of four and two years ago, I also became a co-owner of the company.
04:29.311 --> 04:34.515
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a really small field of art for our role in the world of web performance and
04:36.797 --> 04:41.240
[SPEAKER_01]: are very cool, congrats on being at the right place at the right time and seeing that LinkedIn post.
04:41.660 --> 04:43.462
[SPEAKER_01]: How different things could otherwise have been.
04:44.102 --> 04:47.324
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, your D site speed and bounce rate.
04:47.384 --> 04:51.627
[SPEAKER_01]: I realise this is a really obvious question, but just in case anyone isn't quite aware of it.
04:51.767 --> 04:55.250
[SPEAKER_01]: Why should we care about our site speed and our site bounce rate?
04:56.106 --> 05:07.793
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the most business owners know that more boundless means less conversions and a way to get less pounds is to make sure your website is observable and it can be multiple ways.
05:08.414 --> 05:20.702
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, the design needs to be nice, don't avoid needs to be nice, but psychologically it's proven that if a website takes over three seconds to load for the first time, there's a 50% chance that
05:26.085 --> 05:35.753
[SPEAKER_02]: This is more brutal than ever before, like it's literally once wiped with your term to go back to Google and buy the same products at one of their 20 competitors.
05:36.613 --> 05:52.586
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have a nice landing page experience fee and advertisement or organic search, yeah, it feels fast, it responds fast to your interactions, the chances are way bigger that people are staying on your website, just less bounce rate.
05:53.878 --> 06:05.464
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously it's not just landing pages either, is it's it's it's not like if the first page loads fast will be patient with the rest of the site it's a it's right through the through the whole site journey.
06:06.143 --> 06:15.029
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one small hiccup in the whole flow like landing on our own page, you're going to collection page, product page, check out card.
06:15.109 --> 06:22.114
[SPEAKER_02]: If there's one friction at any of those customer journeys, it can reduce it can result in a bounce.
06:22.154 --> 06:30.140
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to make sure that you are tracking and making sure the whole flow for a user is performing in terms of the side speed.
06:31.263 --> 06:40.848
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think, I suspect everyone listening as heard of core web vitals, which of course is the the critical thing we monitor for site speed these days.
06:41.408 --> 06:48.992
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get into how we go about monitoring that, can you give us the basic guide to what core web vitals is and get into this lovely acronyms, please.
06:49.971 --> 06:56.233
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so that's one of the remittals because as of today you have three core refightals, right?
06:56.273 --> 06:58.473
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have the largest contentful paint.
06:58.714 --> 07:02.495
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a long entage for the biggest elements to render on a page.
07:02.975 --> 07:11.257
[SPEAKER_02]: So an easy example would be if you open a product page on your mobile phone, how long did it take for the first product image to be visual?
07:11.597 --> 07:13.738
[SPEAKER_02]: So that could be the largest contentful paint.
07:14.727 --> 07:17.068
[SPEAKER_02]: then there's the interaction to an x-paint.
07:17.608 --> 07:25.691
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a newer co-refightal metric before that we had first input delay, which the name already says the downsize of it.
07:25.791 --> 07:32.493
[SPEAKER_02]: It's only measuring the first inputs, but you and I both know that's on a website you're not making one click with millspull.
07:33.033 --> 07:35.994
[SPEAKER_02]: so they've then introduced the interaction to next pane.
07:36.054 --> 07:40.975
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you interact with the button, how fast was the next pane feasible?
07:41.595 --> 07:44.676
[SPEAKER_02]: So an add-to-card button with a speeder for example.
07:45.297 --> 07:49.918
[SPEAKER_02]: Then there's the cumulative layout shift and this is all about the stability of a website.
07:50.818 --> 07:57.743
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, let's say you are reading a news article on a website that is full of advertisements.
07:58.303 --> 08:05.328
[SPEAKER_02]: You can often see that when you're reading through a text and an advertisement stops up in between the text, all the text will move down.
08:05.648 --> 08:08.290
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a silly example of a layout shift.
08:09.451 --> 08:13.232
[SPEAKER_02]: Then there are two other metrics you will often see in page with insights.
08:13.532 --> 08:17.313
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are not core vital metrics, but they are important for this.
08:17.533 --> 08:24.755
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of them is time to first bite, meaning how fast the server gives back the first bite to your browser.
08:25.416 --> 08:32.918
[SPEAKER_02]: And their first contentful pain and the easiest way to explain their first contentful pain is a moment the page is not wide anymore.
08:33.138 --> 08:37.019
[SPEAKER_02]: So not the largest element just when the page is not wide anymore.
08:37.819 --> 08:43.085
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a quick run-through of the 5 metrics you'll often see on Tools Online.
08:43.847 --> 08:44.507
[SPEAKER_01]: nicely done.
08:44.527 --> 08:49.568
[SPEAKER_01]: That's given us enough to understand what we're talking about, but I'm sure many will want to go and dive more into those.
08:50.149 --> 08:51.269
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we'll get into it later.
08:51.949 --> 08:57.490
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we then go about monitoring core web vitals and those site speed numbers?
08:57.510 --> 09:03.372
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if I remember when they first came out, everyone got very excited, looked once and then kind of ignored it for 12 months.
09:03.432 --> 09:08.033
[SPEAKER_01]: It felt like, I'm guessing we need to look a little bit more regularly than that, would that be fair to say?
09:08.731 --> 09:12.912
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and this is like where the mark is moving towards.
09:13.232 --> 09:16.453
[SPEAKER_02]: Now we're at least in a really slow pace.
09:17.013 --> 09:21.434
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a lot of ways to monitor your core of titles and web performance.
09:21.654 --> 09:26.535
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is also what makes it difficult because I'm working 40 hours in web performance.
09:26.595 --> 09:27.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know I had to look at it.
09:27.755 --> 09:34.337
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're working in a SEO team or as a CRO, web performance is one of the many things you have to do.
09:34.457 --> 09:36.598
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have too much time to research
09:39.118 --> 09:48.462
[SPEAKER_02]: So, what you'll often see is websites where you can paste your URL in some kind of field press enter and you'll get back results.
09:49.222 --> 09:53.523
[SPEAKER_02]: So the result you can get back are two options.
09:54.304 --> 10:05.248
[SPEAKER_02]: One could be a synthetic test, Google Lighthouse, that's just a sort of a robots entering your websites, timing numbers and then giving you those numbers back.
10:06.088 --> 10:09.089
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's also the Chrome user experience report.
10:09.289 --> 10:13.931
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, in search console, you will also see a little bit of info about the current titles.
10:14.611 --> 10:21.873
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is already a way better way of monitoring your web before us, because this is giving you back actual field data.
10:21.913 --> 10:27.915
[SPEAKER_02]: So what did your users experience over the last 28 days on Google Chrome?
10:28.256 --> 10:31.737
[SPEAKER_02]: But as you can hear, I'm also pointing out some of the downsides of it.
10:31.777 --> 10:35.178
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the last 28 days for only Google Chrome.
10:35.718 --> 10:46.802
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're working on a bigger project where multiple development changes or whatever text changes are happening every day of the week, you want to monitor it in real time.
10:46.882 --> 10:58.907
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is where Runtools, in our case, RuntVision, stepped into to fix this gap and make sure you have all the data continuously get alert when it goes south.
10:59.067 --> 11:01.588
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can work from that angle.
11:04.538 --> 11:06.159
[SPEAKER_01]: This is definitely me learning new stuff.
11:06.319 --> 11:15.326
[SPEAKER_01]: So, lighthouse essentially for anyone who's serious about their website, not worth putting your URL into any more because you're getting much better quality data through Google search console.
11:15.606 --> 11:16.987
[SPEAKER_01]: Would that be better that you're putting a face?
11:17.007 --> 11:18.869
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm guessing it's not quite straightforward as that.
11:18.889 --> 11:28.116
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not quite correct, but I need to add something like if you go to page B insights, this Google website, you enter URL, you will get both of the results.
11:28.156 --> 11:30.597
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the top part is correct data.
11:31.398 --> 11:52.603
[SPEAKER_02]: So Chrome user experience report, and then if you scroll down, you will see the Lighthouse all this SEO out, it's PWA, a gented browser nowadays, and what I can tell, like, if you're working on a staging environment and a development environment, it's fine to use Lighthouse, because you do not have any real users on a staging environment.
11:53.143 --> 11:54.064
[SPEAKER_02]: So then it's fine to
11:59.425 --> 12:04.969
[SPEAKER_02]: and get sort of a checklist of what you've forgotten or what you still need to improve, whatever.
12:05.690 --> 12:24.143
[SPEAKER_02]: But once you go to production, so the live website, you want to look at Chrome data, so the Chrome user experience ideally to take a step further as room data, but yeah, some companies won't have to budget, but if you do have to budget, room is definitely a no brainer.
12:24.523 --> 12:27.365
[SPEAKER_02]: But search console is also a good resource if you're getting
12:29.276 --> 12:30.384
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing, which...
12:31.322 --> 12:58.429
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it seems utterly ridiculous that this hadn't occurred to me, but I kind of thought like all those core web vitals, they were static numbers, you know, setting the sand, you made a change to your website and it changed, you know, the large content painful or it changed x, y, or z, and then that would stay there until you made a change to the website, but actually the real number is what the customer experiences that gets affected by all their devices, their technology, where they are in the world, they're internet connection all the rest of it, which
12:59.569 --> 13:07.502
[SPEAKER_01]: Seems now you've said it, seems blindingly obvious, but I'll hold my hands up and say it hadn't even occurred to me that it could be a number that very based on user experience.
13:08.181 --> 13:22.072
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it can like it's even a simple as if you have like an electrical store or whatever where selling mobile devices and you have released start advertising this 300 year old Android phone.
13:22.332 --> 13:29.798
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you will get different ways to join your website then those that are looking for the newest flagship Samsung or a new iPhone.
13:29.818 --> 13:34.882
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you promote the cheaper product, then a different audience will go to your website.
13:35.562 --> 14:03.561
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, the numbers of your core files can already change, and as she said, stated correctly, it's really nice that you said that the internet connection demo graphics technology, like for example, nowadays people often go for a single page application like next year's and it's perfectly far for you and me, but if you have a large part of your audience own cheap smartphones, good look to them, they will have a really hard time browsing your JavaScript website.
14:04.324 --> 14:08.286
[SPEAKER_01]: got you so as well as not looking at it once and ignoring it forever.
14:08.326 --> 14:21.613
[SPEAKER_01]: We need this on our dashboards to be looking at on a regular basis especially if we're launching products to appeal to a different customer base on marketing channels that are going to appeal to a different customer base with that be a fair summary.
14:22.054 --> 14:22.954
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.
14:23.014 --> 14:23.634
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
14:24.075 --> 14:24.375
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
14:24.415 --> 14:27.617
[SPEAKER_01]: So then what do we do with these numbers once we've
14:31.135 --> 14:42.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Because especially with it, if it's going to change based on our users and what they're doing and how they're behaving, how do we keep on top and learn and make changes that are going to improve our performance based on all of this?
14:43.079 --> 14:44.320
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we make this business as usual?
14:45.168 --> 14:49.752
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's where our responsibility lies.
14:49.792 --> 14:59.099
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, we as a data vendor, like we are giving you all those cool numbers and all that, but you might not have any idea what to do with these numbers.
14:59.139 --> 15:08.207
[SPEAKER_02]: So we feel responsible for making it actionable for you as well, because just collecting data would be a waste of data, resources whatsoever.
15:08.887 --> 15:16.912
[SPEAKER_02]: So with our data, we run a help check and this help check tells you exactly what to do based on the data that we've collected.
15:16.932 --> 15:22.775
[SPEAKER_02]: So it can be as simple as make sure your image has a fetch priority.
15:22.896 --> 15:24.777
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a really easy thing to implement.
15:24.877 --> 15:27.798
[SPEAKER_02]: But it can make your largest content for paint way faster.
15:28.459 --> 15:34.543
[SPEAKER_02]: We write resources on our website that explain you how to deal with the fact if you're
15:39.065 --> 15:56.673
[SPEAKER_02]: To make it actionable, you will actually need to study a little bit like Google as a lot of awesome resources, for information as a lot of Google resources that's making it actionable should be the responsibility of your developers or the vendor you're using for the job in my opinion.
15:57.373 --> 16:06.157
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I totally get what you're coming from with that, and it's often we find with when we're changing things on a website for conversion rate optimization, we find we are
16:07.693 --> 16:16.016
[SPEAKER_01]: having a balancing act with the requirements of search engine optimization and we all know that site speed is usually important for search engine optimization.
16:16.056 --> 16:29.762
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would naively assume that this is one of those areas where our conversion rate optimization improvements are exactly perfect for our SEO improvements or do you find there can be a battle between those two camps when it comes to site speed?
16:30.788 --> 16:35.253
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing for SEO is like, you can pause or feel the core of vitals.
16:35.453 --> 16:37.896
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's one of these two that's the case.
16:38.577 --> 16:43.902
[SPEAKER_02]: So when your website passes the core of vitals, you will get the SEO benefit.
16:43.942 --> 16:48.407
[SPEAKER_02]: So for my SEO point of view, you always want to make sure that you're at least passing.
16:49.148 --> 17:00.176
[SPEAKER_02]: But when we go to CRO, you can go further because fast and core refitals literally means that 75% of your visitors are having a good experience.
17:00.236 --> 17:03.058
[SPEAKER_02]: But what about the older 25%?
17:03.198 --> 17:08.922
[SPEAKER_02]: So another downside of free data is it's on the 75% dial, the fastest 75%
17:10.583 --> 17:17.866
[SPEAKER_02]: that if you want to improve conversions, I think there's a bigger improvement to gain from the slowest 25% than the fastest 75% so a
17:33.245 --> 17:34.347
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of a case again.
17:34.467 --> 17:38.371
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to our 75% with past SEO stand-down.
17:38.671 --> 17:40.513
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see all right, we're in charge of this now.
17:40.533 --> 17:43.376
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to see how far we can push it, which will improve everyone's results.
17:43.857 --> 17:48.441
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that would be a perfect use case of how to approach core titles.
17:48.602 --> 17:48.822
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
17:49.632 --> 18:11.744
[SPEAKER_01]: nice and if we're working on that 25% of difficult stuff I guess you know it's more of being clever about how the website loads but does it is it a case that you end up zeroing in on segments of specific devices or specific user cases in order to improve things further and then potentially even serving up different sites to different people?
18:12.084 --> 18:12.845
[SPEAKER_01]: Would it go that far?
18:14.132 --> 18:33.291
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, back in the days at Woods, I would find some cases where that would be a success case nowadays, but in the five year I've done this, I've never seen somebody pull this off because yeah, back in the days we used to have a M dot domain dot com like a mobile version or a light dot like a light version.
18:33.912 --> 18:35.313
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's why I say 90%.
18:36.314 --> 18:51.808
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can make the website fast for 90% of your users and some guys for 95% but this last 5% of users might be stepping into the trim in London with 30 people around me browsing your website.
18:51.948 --> 18:55.011
[SPEAKER_02]: good luck optimizing for my site speed experience.
18:55.031 --> 19:02.538
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is also where we as fanatics draw the line, but 90% is the gross of growth people.
19:02.818 --> 19:06.262
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's doable in Western Europe.
19:06.802 --> 19:09.785
[SPEAKER_02]: But as you said, we're not serving a different website.
19:10.506 --> 19:15.831
[SPEAKER_02]: If we go to countries that are a little bit less wealthy, when network infrastructure is different,
19:16.703 --> 19:26.629
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, maybe like Eastern parts of the world, there you definitely don't want to serve the same website as you do in, for example, the Netherlands.
19:27.450 --> 19:35.155
[SPEAKER_02]: What I already said like a single page application, like next year's in a country with less resources would be a stupid idea.
19:35.955 --> 19:43.300
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you've already built it there, you definitely need to strip down the website, get rid of a lot of features.
19:45.201 --> 19:59.023
[SPEAKER_02]: It's finding a balance and before you start building a new website or whatever, I would say do research based on this research, decide which tech stack might be the best for your audience in those countries.
19:59.805 --> 20:07.269
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that point on something we need to consider if we're doing the cross-border expansion activity.
20:07.810 --> 20:11.752
[SPEAKER_01]: We've kind of drifted into some side benefits of sites been improvement.
20:11.772 --> 20:18.496
[SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about SEO, we've talked about the cross-border improvements if we're segmenting it that way.
20:19.216 --> 20:25.740
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also quite an environmental impact, isn't there, on the world of sustainability if we're going for faster websites.
20:26.543 --> 20:41.634
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, there's some companies that ask the run fishing that fast, like if we could make a dashboard about their environmental savings, because the less kilobytes of pages, so page weights, the less it's.
20:42.555 --> 20:46.056
[SPEAKER_02]: sent in to the environment at your servers when loading the website.
20:46.116 --> 20:53.058
[SPEAKER_02]: So a fast website often goes hand in hand with accessibility and environmental impact.
20:53.638 --> 21:00.179
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's definitely something with hers from some enterprise clients that are into this.
21:00.579 --> 21:01.280
[SPEAKER_02]: Not sure why.
21:01.300 --> 21:05.901
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I understand why, but I don't know why enterprise clients specifically ask for this.
21:06.341 --> 21:10.902
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe for some kind of certification for their company or something like that.
21:11.702 --> 21:25.712
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's definitely an extra benefit, but yeah, it's maybe it's a little bit of a shame, like people are not coming to a room vision or ask about web-perform because they want to save the environment.
21:25.832 --> 21:35.119
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a movement, people could move to a little bit more, but everything is often about earning more money, unfortunately.
21:36.189 --> 21:42.594
[SPEAKER_01]: So anything, Jordi, we've missed on the side of this that the audience need to know about or have we covered it all?
21:43.555 --> 21:48.358
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one side note is obviously our little friends AI.
21:48.959 --> 21:53.782
[SPEAKER_02]: So Google Lighthouse is also taking a look at your layout shift.
21:53.942 --> 21:58.866
[SPEAKER_02]: So when an AI agent goes through your website, it tends to take screenshots.
21:59.266 --> 21:59.467
[SPEAKER_02]: So
22:00.147 --> 22:08.677
[SPEAKER_02]: If it takes a screenshot, scrolls down, takes another screenshot, but during the time it's scrolled down, there was a cumulative layout here.
22:08.857 --> 22:12.000
[SPEAKER_02]: It could end up screenshoting the same stuff.
22:12.080 --> 22:18.347
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you go to Lighthouse now for your page with Insights, you will also see a little bit about agentic browsing.
22:19.148 --> 22:22.752
[SPEAKER_02]: So this one starts caring about your CLS score.
22:22.852 --> 22:31.482
[SPEAKER_02]: So for SEO, it's important for CRO or UX, but since two, three months or something, it's also important for AI.
22:31.522 --> 22:35.707
[SPEAKER_02]: So it has something to do with most of the things, but
22:36.348 --> 22:38.049
[SPEAKER_02]: People focus on it too late.
22:38.129 --> 22:52.160
[SPEAKER_02]: So my advice to anyone would be start caring about web performance in the beginning instead of when you're done because it's way more work, equals expensive, more expensive when you have to do everything in the end.
22:53.936 --> 22:57.659
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good always good advice for any of these kind of deep techy things.
22:57.759 --> 22:59.060
[SPEAKER_01]: Love that, you already thank you.
22:59.941 --> 23:04.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you already thank you so much for letting us pick your brains about all of that.
23:05.005 --> 23:15.993
[SPEAKER_01]: And list this, remember stay tuned right to the end, so you don't miss out on your these insider tips on conversion rates and my suggestions for more free resources to help you improve things even further in your businesses.
23:18.262 --> 23:22.426
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, Yordie, so far we've gone deep into site speed and bounce rates.
23:22.747 --> 23:26.810
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you get to wow us with your insider knowledge about the whole of conversion rates.
23:27.251 --> 23:34.518
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, your answer can be anything to do with conversion rates, which, of course, does include everything we've already been talking about.
23:34.898 --> 23:36.980
[SPEAKER_01]: Yordie, are you ready for the insider tips?
23:37.641 --> 23:39.443
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's ready, I say can be.
23:39.808 --> 23:40.809
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's do it.
23:40.909 --> 23:42.650
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with newbie advice.
23:42.991 --> 23:48.976
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
23:50.045 --> 24:08.182
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, and even if it's like a dummy or something, build something yourself, like if you're working for mostly e-commerce websites, build an e-commerce website yourself, even with AI, West Railway for a bit, you will understand more and more of the steps that your client needs to think about this.
24:08.422 --> 24:12.286
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you understand the client better, you can also
24:14.708 --> 24:16.230
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, try it yourself.
24:16.691 --> 24:21.096
[SPEAKER_02]: Something like this would be some solid advice that I could give to people.
24:21.797 --> 24:22.418
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
24:22.798 --> 24:23.899
[SPEAKER_01]: Get your hands dirty.
24:24.420 --> 24:24.640
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:25.622 --> 24:28.926
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
24:28.966 --> 24:31.349
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favorite way to improve performance?
24:32.682 --> 24:36.487
[SPEAKER_02]: To be honest, I visit a lot of agencies in the Netherlands.
24:36.687 --> 24:41.754
[SPEAKER_02]: We're based in the Netherlands so sometimes I take the car and drive two hours to the other side of the country.
24:41.854 --> 24:42.955
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that easy right here.
24:43.596 --> 24:45.078
[SPEAKER_02]: Then I sit next to a developer.
24:45.418 --> 24:47.381
[SPEAKER_02]: He opens his laptop or she.
24:47.821 --> 24:50.244
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we look at the performance of this website.
24:50.845 --> 25:04.437
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I can see the actual code, which you cannot see always, and then I say, like, okay, if you change this line of codes, we could improve your LCP, then they are like typing together and they push it to production.
25:05.577 --> 25:10.878
[SPEAKER_02]: And then a day later, I log in room vision and then I see an important performance improved.
25:10.898 --> 25:17.919
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in terms of favorite ways to improve, I would say, I'm a big fan of an pragmatic approach.
25:18.239 --> 25:26.521
[SPEAKER_02]: So getting things done, felidating it with data and celebrating even the smaller successes in terms of improvements.
25:27.361 --> 25:30.642
[SPEAKER_01]: We so often forget to celebrate, we know our celebrate for a split
25:33.840 --> 25:47.683
[SPEAKER_02]: And this isn't weapon form is like improving 20 milliseconds, feels not that rewarding but if you can improve 20 milliseconds 10 times in a row, you have 200 milliseconds and that is the crazy part about this.
25:48.443 --> 25:51.384
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to celebrate small improvements as well.
25:52.184 --> 25:53.524
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, completely agree with you.
25:53.744 --> 25:57.685
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone listing wants to learn more is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?
25:58.663 --> 26:03.086
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely, I have to give big props to Google.
26:03.466 --> 26:08.250
[SPEAKER_02]: They have the web.deft platform, and there's a whole course on web performance.
26:08.910 --> 26:12.352
[SPEAKER_02]: Also to room vision and any other slides we do out there.
26:12.773 --> 26:16.475
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone is crazy passionate about the topic.
26:16.835 --> 26:19.197
[SPEAKER_02]: So everyone has written crazy resources.
26:19.577 --> 26:25.922
[SPEAKER_02]: All for free, I would say you don't need to spend any money to learn web performance because the community is so passionate.
26:26.442 --> 26:31.244
[SPEAKER_02]: And one small tip, every year we have a web performance at Fentcal Lender.
26:31.425 --> 26:36.947
[SPEAKER_02]: So for 31 days in a row, the whole community comes together and starts writing pieces.
26:37.067 --> 26:42.810
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can read the morning newspaper about web performance every day in December.
26:43.050 --> 26:45.932
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is my favorite resource of the year for sure.
26:46.441 --> 26:47.902
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, very cool, where do we find that?
26:47.922 --> 26:51.825
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it just dotted on different people's websites, each December or as does it get pulled together?
26:51.845 --> 26:53.506
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's actually like one website.
26:53.566 --> 26:56.247
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's one guy that is responsible.
26:56.328 --> 27:01.411
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if you Google web performance at Fentcalander, it should be the number one result.
27:01.910 --> 27:02.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
27:02.570 --> 27:06.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Web performance advent calendar everybody and get ready for it.
27:06.592 --> 27:09.993
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just in December when you've got nothing else to do and you're a bit bored.
27:10.113 --> 27:11.613
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing's happening in the comments.
27:11.894 --> 27:12.594
[SPEAKER_01]: Go and have a read.
27:13.354 --> 27:18.896
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to read the editions from previous years as well, which should still apply to these days?
27:18.936 --> 27:21.017
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of stuff out there.
27:21.677 --> 27:23.077
[SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.
27:23.218 --> 27:24.738
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, crystal ball time.
27:24.838 --> 27:26.899
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months
27:30.853 --> 27:37.096
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the, like two, two, three years ago, this question was way easier than it is now with AI.
27:37.116 --> 27:44.378
[SPEAKER_02]: But I would say like when it comes to web performance, like we ourselves that room vision have built an MCP, that's out now.
27:44.458 --> 27:50.381
[SPEAKER_02]: So just having your agent chat with your data, looking at your account is for us.
27:50.441 --> 27:52.542
[SPEAKER_02]: The next coming six to 12 months.
27:53.702 --> 27:56.144
[SPEAKER_02]: in terms of, yeah, see a row.
27:56.705 --> 28:08.694
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say it's interesting to even know what's going to happen and how people entered buying stuff from you in the next going 6 to 12 months with TikTok shop, a gigantic shopping.
28:08.755 --> 28:10.276
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like crazy.
28:10.416 --> 28:12.438
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know what to say.
28:13.413 --> 28:26.595
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know what you mean, it's like the, I think the biggest question for this coming peak season is will it all happen with AI agents wielded by consumers or will consumers becoming to websites and where that percentage point goes?
28:27.055 --> 28:37.797
[SPEAKER_01]: I suspect it's going to be more humans on websites than some people are predicting, but I think that's going to give us huge amount of insight for what the next few years are going to look like.
28:37.817 --> 28:41.898
[SPEAKER_01]: So I totally get why, why you're saying we need to wait and see.
28:42.615 --> 28:43.638
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, Mark.
28:44.139 --> 28:46.143
[SPEAKER_01]: You already, we are very nearly into the show.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, could you please at the listeners know where they can find you and rum vision if they want to find out more?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as the Chloe already said, like, my name is Yordi Schoeling.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can find me a link in, I post there like once or twice a week about our products, but also about web performance findings and our company, you can find at www.vroomvision.com and a small tip for you to not just go to the website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you go to our website, there's a navigation item that says free tools and under those
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you go to Coronavirus history and paste your website URL, it will actually get to see the last six months of Coronavirus data of your own website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that is pretty cool because it might be an interesting starting point to spark the conversation within your organization, which your colleagues about Coronavirus and Web Performance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So head to rumvision.com and click on the free tools to find that core web vitals history, everyone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Go get distracted for the rest of the day with that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're really, thank you so much for being on the keep optimizing podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's been fascinating getting into all of this with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So really appreciate you being here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And thanks for having me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that some people, a lot of people have learned something
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[SPEAKER_01]: So who else is willing to admit like me that they didn't realize that all those core web vitals numbers changed from user to user platform to platform?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm willing to admit it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely, that was a big learn from me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, kind of obvious really, but a big learn for me this time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can get
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[SPEAKER_01]: All those links to the things we discussed, the transcript, our notes and more at keepoptimizing.com.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can use our special direct episode short link, keepopt.com forward slash the number of this episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Put that in the URL bar to go straight to the right page on the site for all the goodies about this episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list, so you don't miss out on any of the other things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: we share to help you improve your business.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Up Demising podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you've enjoyed this episode then do check out episode number six.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, going way, way, way back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Episode
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[SPEAKER_01]: So number six with Luke Carthet, who's a CRO and SEO expert, who is taking us deep into the fundamentals of technical SEO, which I think directly links into this site speed in which hasn't changed that much since episode six went out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's well worth a listen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find our full thread of conversion rate content by scrolling up your feed or
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[SPEAKER_01]: Please do tell your fellow marketers about the show because we produce it to help as many marketers as possible to improve performance of their e-commerce marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode, so I can help you to keep optimizing your marketing.
