Esther: nobody dreams of being a step parent, I think. I mean, I think it's often through bereavement or loss, you know, redesigned plans, repackaged dreams, a new adventure unfolds, and you kind of have to embrace that adventure,
Rebecca:
hello, and welcome to It's a Bit More Complicated Than That, where we are listening to all the fascinating, sad, joyful, messy answers that follow the question, So, do you have kids? I'm Rebecca.
Dannie-Lu: I'm Dannie-Lu,
Rebecca: I'm a parent.
Dannie-Lu: and I'm not. But it's a bit more complicated than that. And that's the same for pretty much every one of our guests.
Rebecca: Every episode, we ask one guest whether they're a parent or not, whether it's a bit more complicated than that, and a few other questions about their journey. we see where it goes.
Dannie-Lu: And to finish, we give them a magic wand and ask if there's anything they'd change about society if they could.
Rebecca: In this episode we speak to Esther. Esther is a communications director, former broadcast journalist and is passionate about creating successful teams. She's a mother of four who had both her bio children between the ages of 40 and 42 and has two stepchildren.
Dannie-Lu: She talks about the wonderful highs along with lows and addresses how people's attitudes towards her biological children and stepchildren have sometimes been different and how she has worked to create the inclusive family they all want. She talks about the importance of having a strong cabinet of friends and a good support network.
Rebecca: We're also, in this podcast, as we are on episode three, going to share some of your great feedback about the podcast so far, our buzzy excitement about how things have been going, and a few requests from us.
It is so good to have you here. Thank [00:02:00] you.
Dannie-Lu: so, it, this is episode three. we're in and we're going.
Rebecca: we launched two together. Um, what was really exciting was the downloads kept happening. So we did our, you know, we had our date and we shared it and we told people and I told people as much as I could,
Yeah.
Rebecca: as I could,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: but then I would check and there was a download and then there was another few downloads and every week there's been, somebody somewhere has found it and then somebody somewhere has told somebody else and somebody somewhere has told somebody else.
And that's really exciting. Yeah,
Dannie-Lu: exciting. And I like that. I like the idea. I don't know if this is an age thing. Maybe it is, but I like the idea of things slowly catching rather than it being like this big kind of like noise and this huge, you know, everyone listens to it and it's this big deal. And then it goes quiet.
I like the idea of things slowly catching. Catching and feeding to each other. it feels more old school to me like mix tapes.
Rebecca: what do you mean like mixtapes?
Dannie-Lu: Well, you make a mix tape for someone, wouldn't you? Like this is what you remember this we're the same age. You used to make a mix tape for somebody with all your sort of favorite hits, I would sit with Annie Nightingale and go, Ooh, it's Pop Will Eat Itself's new one.
Click record, you know, clunky. then I'd share my mixed tips with people and go, here has tunes that I love. I'll record this bit of vinyl so you can have a listen And it felt really organic and connecting and I, and there's something I like about, The slow catch of things in today's noisy, world,
It feels, it feels more aligned to that way or maybe I'm just being nostalgic and sentimental.
Rebecca: More like a mixtape than a, like a big global launch blast is what you're saying. Oh yeah,
Dannie-Lu: Like with a big multimillion, I mean, not that we've got anywhere near that sort of money, but that, you know, a big multimedia backed, [00:04:00] campaign that you don't have any choice whether you engage with it or not, because it's thrust at you. This is like slowly catching for people who genuinely want to listen.
And I like that.
Rebecca: groovy, yeah.
I've got a bit of specific feedback, from one of the episodes and I think it was, I think it was Bernice.
Dannie-Lu: Cool.
Rebecca: Because we did talk about regrets with Berenice, I think, didn't we? Yeah. so this person said, it's a topic that's really hard to listen to and you made it really accessible and compelling, which was lovely. And also,
she says she's afraid of regrets and of people talking about them and, Berenice had some big regrets and was good at laying them out and owning them.
She was pretty remarkable all round and I would agree with that.
Dannie-Lu: I'd
Rebecca: it was,
Dannie-Lu: eloquent,
Rebecca: Yeah,
also did talk about the privilege of being part of a conversation that they are not normally part of as well, that, that, because they're a parent and they were really privileged to be part of this conversation, which I think is really similar. And I felt the same about Berenice.
Dannie-Lu: a bit more feedback from Katie is very good chat. So the other thing is that, there's a lot of really good chat, not necessarily, all 100 percent deep, deep, deep. bit like life. Some of it is just chat.I think it's, That thing about the privilege of being able to listen to other people's stories. And I feel the same way, actually, when I hear people's stories about parenting, I feel quite privileged because I'm ordinarily not in that space. Or I feel on the outside, like, you know, nose pressed against the window, like I'm on the outside.
Whereas actually when we're having that conversation, we're all part of it, it is a privilege. I think that simply highlights. How important it is to have those conversations for everybody and the need for it in society as on the whole, you know, like to be able to have those conversations without awkwardness or competitiveness or one upmanship or pity just to be in that space where we can hold that,
Rebecca: a lovely list of words that we want to avoid. That's great. Yeah, totally. Exactly that. [00:06:00] I think we should introduce Esther, actually, and then we can, come back in the middle of the episode, tell you a few more reviews.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: I keep saying reviews, I mean feedback. We've had no reviews. If anybody would like to review the podcast,
. We can talk more about that, in a bit. please enjoy our chat with Esther.
Dannie-Lu:
Rebecca: Hey, it's really,
Dannie-Lu: you.
Rebecca: really good to see you. And thank you for making time.
Dannie-Lu: you want to introduce yourself, Esther?
Esther: I am Esther Kuku. I am a mother to four, a bio mum to two, and a step mum to two.
Dannie-Lu: And I work in pr,
Rebecca: Thank you.
Dannie-Lu: because of that, would you class yourself as a parent, a non parent, or is it a bit more complicated than that?
Esther: so I would classify myself as a parent to four, I don't always say that I'm a stepparent. sometimes I don't because I've been on the journey for about. Well I've been on the journey for13 years now.
So, They're all my babies. every now and again, external factors remind me that they're my stepchildren. I always kind of have to have that sense. So sometimes people will. remind me that they're not my children, which is fine. That's okay. But as far as I'm concerned, they're my babies. They're my husband's babies. It's taken me a long time to get to where we are on this journey. They were actually there before my biological children were. So, it all works.
Dannie-Lu: It's interesting. I'm also a step parent, but because I'm childless, I tend to always differentiate, I'm a part time step parent.
Esther: Okay.
Dannie-Lu: I'm just wondering if there's [00:08:00] nuances there, or maybe it's just individual to individual. I don't know.
Esther: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I got married when I was 40
Dannie-Lu: Mm
Esther: I was like single, single, single, single forever, like forever. And I'd almost, I'm quite a positive person, so I wouldn't say I'd given up on the dream of having children. But what I would say is that I became quite practical and said, Oh, actually, I don't really mind.my kids don't have to come from my own body. I'm cool with adoption. I'm cool with, just being a step mum. being in this role now, and knowing the journey, and knowing how genuinely challenging it's been At times,
Dannie-Lu: Mm mm
Esther: totally own like my step parent side of who I, who I am. And I totally talk about it because it's taken us a long time to get to this place of peace and this space of peace where, where we are. It didn't happen overnight. So I'm kind of proud of the journey and where we've, where we've come from.
Dannie-Lu: I love that.
Rebecca: You talk, so you talked already about the journey and maybe, could you tell us a little bit about how, yeah, about that journey?
Esther: Yeah.
Rebecca: How? Well,
Esther: we were married and he had, he'd been divorced and he had two children from his first marriage. And, We, we immediately said he, I was kind of like quite clear, like I didn't, I didn't mind whether was quite happy to be just be a step mum.
I was also quite happy to have children. I've got friends that really have a very deep yearning for children. I've never been that person that is going [00:10:00] to mortgage their house for IVF. but that's fine. And I know people that have, and that's absolutely fine.
But I've never been that person. So just thought we'd try and see what happens. And Oh my God, it was like, my husband just has to blow on me. And I conceived, literally, right? So, literally, so I mean, I got, I got pregnant straight away, and then I got pregnant, and then I lost one, and then I got pregnant again, straight away, so I had one child at 40. And another at 41. And then also had my Also my, my, my bio babies were first. They came first. And then, it was quite challenging. And people talk about blended families. And I don't, I don't. I'm very careful about that term because actually I think that when you're in a step parent scenario, you would just not blended on day one, or even on year one, or year two, or year three, or year four.
I think it's really hard.
Dannie-Lu: mm
Esther: you have to make a decision that actually. We're just going to work at it. nobody dreams of being a step parent, I think. I mean, I think it's, it's often through bereavement or loss,redesigned plans, repackaged dreams, a new, a new adventure unfolds, and you kind of have to embrace that adventure, I just think, I mean, somebody could come along and challenge me on it, but I don't know anyone in my social circle that dreamed when they were a child or a young girl or a young man of being a step parent, it just, it just happens. And that new, and you go with it. And I think for us, it was tricky because I got pregnant straight away and then suddenly I was trying to be a bio parent and then trying to be a step parent at the same time.
And then there was the dynamics of, as my children got older, My bio children got older, kind of wondering why these other children were coming and going all the [00:12:00] time. it was genuinely, very challenging. I wouldn't change it for the world,
Dannie-Lu: mm
Esther: but it was challenging. And then there's also, I had people who say to me,why did you decide to be a step parent?
Why did you decide to take on a, whole family? And it was kind of like, well, because that's what I wanted to do and that's what success looks like for me and I'm far too old to be negotiating who I am to make somebody else feel comfortable, we're not doing that, right? I decided to be a step parent because I love my husband and these children are part of his life and actually they're really beautiful children. And yes, it is really difficult, but it's my difficult and I love it. our difficult and we love it and we work through it.
Dannie-Lu: that. It's so beautiful and it's so accepting. I wonder if you, or what your thoughts are around how open we are. I mean, you started to allude to this a bit already about how open we are societally about the role of step parenting. 'cause it, we almost don't talk about it in the same way that we talk about parenting.
Do we?
Esther: No, and I guess there's a part of it, if you're not in it, is that thing for people who are on the outside of it who kind of look at it and think that it's some kind of consolation prize,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah,
Esther: and,
Dannie-Lu: Mm hmm.
Esther: but it isn't, people, It's the fact that it, step parents, the step parenting space is a result of either bereavement or loss, how it occurs and within that, there's a huge amount of restoration and reconciliation and healing that needs to take place in children's lives and in the spouse, whether it's a man or a woman, who's at the center of that.
And I think we do need to be open. I think we need um, conversations about step parenting, about saying that it's complex saying that it can be draining sometimes, but then also saying that actually it's a really beautiful thing. And in our [00:14:00] relationship and in our marriage, my, husband was divorced and two children from, My husband's divorce.
And actually those two children have been so blessed and are in such a different space now. And my husband is in such a different space now. and I just think it's a huge opportunity to grow, to grow and to start afresh and to have fresh beginnings. And actually, youI do think that there's a certain element of. People's judgment around it and people's questioning around it. But like I said earlier, I think it's okay. when you're a step parent, if you're outside of that, it isn't for me to help you, to make you feel comfortable about the role that I am. it's for me to actually just crack on and be amazing in my role, embrace my role. know that I'm amazing, know that my stepchildren are amazing and just keep it. Moving and sometimes in the step parent space, it's really complex. Sometimes you are the main character. Sometimes you're the supporting actress and sometimes you're the stagehand. And I think it's just very important to understand which one of those three roles you're playing. Early on in my step parent relationship, I was very much. the stagehand. I very much had to let my husband, deal with his ex wife, although I wanted to kind of get in there and say my two pence because that's the type of person, I very much wanted to get in there and let me defend, let me speak, I don't have any emotional ties to this human being. Let me help you. But actually that was never going to work. So there was times when I literally had to be the stagehand. There was, times when I literally had to be the supporting character and just support my husband, to navigate through the change and to actually take a step back and say, well, he knows these children better than I do actually. So let me just let him take the lead and let me not try to want to change the world overnight in my home. And then, As we grew on that journey, there were times when I was actually, [00:16:00] absolutely the main character,
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: This is our home.
This is my space. This is how I want my kitchen. This is how things are going to be done. This is how we're going to parent here. This is how you're going to speak to me. This is what respect looks like,and it's all a journey, but I think it's just really being confident and just helping people outside because life changes and society's changes, you're going to have more families that look different, families are going to look incredibly different, as we grow and change as a society. And we have to take ownership of our different
Dannie-Lu: Mm
Esther: and help people to understand what our different is and say, look, I'm not going to, I'm not going to, I'm not negotiating this with you. This is how it is. It's amazing. It's great. It's not, it's not the consolation prize because your home, you had children really easily and got married straight away, pushed out some kids, lived happily ever after. Happily ever after isn't everybody's reality. And we have to get comfortable like that. And we have to be generous and gracious knowing that.
Rebecca: feedback. Let's read some more feedback.
Dannie-Lu: should I do one?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: So this is from Elizabeth Adams Elizabeth shared this on LinkedIn. she said, I've just followed this podcast and I'm halfway through the first full pod. I am already immediately obsessed and obsessed as in block up
Rebecca: Woo!
Dannie-Lu: I like that. I like that she's obsessed and I do know, that Elizabeth is a parent.
That's something I do know about her.
Rebecca: Well, I've got one from Marica who says your podcast is everything
Dannie-Lu: Oh,
Rebecca: it with my girlfriends who are still on the fence about motherhood It's so refreshing to hear women openly discuss the topics. We [00:18:00] often struggle to talk about or that are considered a taboo
Dannie-Lu: oh my goodness. What a great bit of feedback that is.
Rebecca: I've got another one, and I think I've Yeah, I've got another one.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: so this is from somebody that, uh, would really like to be a guest.
I really love talking about this stuff because it's important and I want it to be easier for the next generations to bridge the so called gap between parented and non parented.
Dannie-Lu: Yes.
Rebecca: another, and there are many potential, people we could talk to, with different experiences that are keen to share.
Dannie-Lu: I like that piece of,feedback because that is a, probably a reason why we're doing it, isn't it? It's to change the course of, of the conversation and the awareness for future generations. And I think it is really important, hence some of the stuff we've talked about already actually, that we miss that.
And it ties into the conversation we had with Esther around You know, sometimes people say, and if you don't have children or you don't have your own biological children, you don't have a stake in the future, you know, some of that nonsense narrative that's out there
Rebecca: Hmm.
Dannie-Lu: how it's like, well, we're part of a society and a community.
So we do actually, and if you can influence some of the conversations or create safer spaces or more permissive conversations around things that historically have been a bit more taboo or not talked about, that to me is a stake in the future in a big way. So that's joyous that that feedback came in to me.
Esther:
Rebecca: You said about opportunities for growth, which I think is really exciting with children as well. I think I sometimes wonder if people wait for children to be adults before they, we spend a lot of time in school, but like the idea that they would be learning and growing through this experience.
It's really exciting. IYeah, it's a thing that maybe they weren't expecting to happen in their lives, but it's an opportunity for growth. you said as well that you [00:20:00] had, your bio babies quite quickly. So I was just wondering if you could describe a bit about living in that home where you are grappling with a, I'm assuming a quite a big change at 40.
Esther: Yeah.
Rebecca: So how did it feel like being a main player and a supporting player in the same space?
Esther: So, I think it was very challenging because there were so many people's emotions that you're trying to balance. It's like everyone's got different sets of emotion and you're trying to manage everybody And make everyone feel happy and, you quite often come last, which actually goes against all of what I kind of believe and all of what I might post on LinkedIn, but it's the reality and actually children always have to come first.
It's really annoying, but it's the reality. It's true. Right. It really was making my Beautiful stepchildren understand they were not now being kind of pushed out, and that they, was this new, beautiful, cute, and some of it, I think it's girls. So I have a boy and a girl stepchildren who are adults now nearly, but, then, my husband's daughter is very protective.
So it was really trying to help everyone understand that. Like I am mama, like I'm mama bear and I have enough love for everybody, and just trying to help people to everyone in that space, all of the children in that space to understand that, this was good change. This was positive change.
We can all play a role in that new space and new children coming into the equation. Initially, it was about my stepchildren and making them understand that they were [00:22:00] totally loved. and weren't suddenly going to get pushed out. But then also very quickly it changed because they had already become accustomed to kind of like an every other weekend lifestyle.
But my children didn't really understand what that was about or what that was, or why
Dannie-Lu: Mm.
Esther: kept coming in and kept going. it became quite upsetting for them because they loved it. brother and sister and trying to help them understand. So really, I think, it's a long way of saying it those early years.
I certainly didn't put myself first, because I don't, I wasn't in a position to. Yeah.
Rebecca: I don't know how you feel about this, Dannie. I wonder how you were so wise about that whilst also being so new to it. It feels like there was, there was a foresight and a wisdom that you had. And I think about me floundering around with one baby, barely being able to cope with a hell of a lot of support all everywhere.
And me just kind of grabbing every bit of support and going, yes, I'll take this. I just feel like that, how do you think, where do you think that came from? That knowledge? Hmm.
Esther: think that I would be being, very selfish if I didn't say this, but I'm a Christian, so I go to church. So I have quite a strong Christian faith. And so prayer works for me and on a practical level, if, if you're listening to this and you're not of a faith background, having a really close cabinet of friends that are just there just understand, people in our world that add value. I'm very particular about, in fact, I'm really choosy about who I have around me and. People who are going to add value and celebrate me where I am and in the space that I'm in is really important. And people just saying, can I help you? Can I come [00:24:00] round? Now, how are you feeling? helping me with taking my kids off me for a little while so I could,get some rest. I think having the right people around us. Throughout life's journey, because it does get complicated. I mean, I say to people all the time, God, you get all of this stuff that you really wanted and then suddenly it's hard.
You don't know what to do with it.
Dannie-Lu: Ha
Esther: I went from having no kids and being 40, like being 39. Like, when am I going to meet somebody? When am I going to meet someone? Like forever and ever and ever to suddenly having it all,
Rebecca: Hmm. All plus.
Esther: all plus.
Dannie-Lu: though, like within a
Esther: Yeah. And just having, girlfriends that I can go to whose shoulders I can cry
Rebecca: Hmm.
Esther: know, or who could help me or people that I could just be real with and actually say stuff that isn't, doesn't sound wise, but the spaces I could like totally rant in
Rebecca: Hmm.
Esther: and say, how did I get here?
What is this? I think it's really important for all of us.
Rebecca: Well, it shows the power of that because you were able to reassure small human beings that like you said, I've got love for everybody, there's a lot of actions you need to take.
to be able to reassure those people, that you've got enough love for them. there's actions behind that, aren't there?
Esther: and especially, when there's background noise, when there are ex spouses involved and there was some, there's background noise that isn't always going to be helpful, I remember after I had my first child, I remember actually somebody in my family, the last person that you would expect to say. You're like, don't have another one. just, just don't do not have another one. Look at all this that's going on already. thought it was so funny. Like somebody very close to my family says, don't have, have another one. And then a work colleague who is, who must've been in her late fifties, an older Scottish white lady sort of pulled me to one side and said. You have to have another one.
Dannie-Lu: So you're getting pulled in completely different directions [00:26:00] by these people.
Esther: And two really different people, right?
Rebecca: Wow.
Esther: to have another one. you can't leave her in the world alone like this. you've got to have one more,
Dannie-Lu: Wow.
Esther: and I did. It was really,
Rebecca: Wow. She obviously,
Esther: she has a lot to say.
and it was almost like that was just her role, right?
Cause she was a work, I've never seen her again in 10 years, like some people just show up for a purpose.
Rebecca: Wow.
Esther: hasn't been easy, it has been complicated. But as I said, it's our complicated and we own it and we are proud of it, and I always say some of the most beautiful things come out of mess.
if you think of lilies in a lily pond, like I know this stuff, I'm not like a gardener or anything, but if you look at lilies, like how they grow.
Dannie-Lu: Mm.
Esther: from, from they, they don't need anything and they like stagnant ponds and they just flourish and have life. I think step parents are just step parenting and that whole step parenting space is such a beautiful, representation of redemption, and forgiveness and healing and the transformative power of healing and how something can be either be really broken And, somebody walks in and, and if you think about, if I think about my life, I didn't know why I was like single for so long.
And I was in some of that time I was really low. I was like, well, what about me? What about me?and, but all of that time, it was like a process. it was like a preparation period for what was going to come. And I'm so glad that I didn't squander that time. I'm so glad that I traveled and I did lots of stuff and I made the most of my life.
And, cause now I'm quite happy to just be at home and be a mama and look after everybody. It suits me. I don't see it as, lesser than it's, it's my most important for me. well, it's, it's my most important title, like being a director or being really senior and what I do is, is, is secondary to making sure that I help each of those [00:28:00] four kids have the very best in life that, that they can.
And they all know that my step, I mean, I mentor to my stepchildren now, it, it, it all works.
Dannie-Lu: Mm. I love what you're saying because it sort of makes me think about, The responsibility we all have because I'm obviously childless and I have had those comments of,that are out into the world. what have you got invested into the future? Right. And I think, but what you've articulated so beautifully is that we've all got responsibility to nurture the young people in
Esther: There we have it.
Dannie-Lu: birth to them or not, it actually doesn't matter. And I think what you're talking about there is such a beautiful crystallization of that. it's almost like a North Star in there for all of us. Yeah.
Esther: And I think sometimes, there is this thing where, people project on us their version of what success looks like,
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: or their version of what fulfillment is,
Dannie-Lu: Mm hmm.
Esther: or should be. And, and we, I, like the effort and the attention that I put into my biological children, the investment that I make into them, I mean, Equally I make into my stepchildren they're older and they're teenagers and they're going through of Things I check in on them all the time, I love them differently and then that's another part of the step parent, you know, you have to be honest and say, like, 10 years ago, you don't have stepchildren and automatically love them. love grows over time. It's not automatic. And I think that we have to allow ourselves to with in the step parenting space to understand that you don't meet somebody, have a partner, get married, automatically adore their stepchildren. cause sometimes their stepchildren can be tricky. They, it can be complex. It doesn't always land well straight away, but over time that love grows. It's not the same love but it, but it's love. It's, it's love all the same. Yeah,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah, absolutely.
Rebecca: I mean, I would add that [00:30:00] there's an awful lot of effort. in biological parenting. And I think that there's an assumption there as well that that happens immediately. I'm seeing kind of these little imaginary bridges appearing in our conversations every time we have conversations and that, that little imaginary bridge of understanding that I have with you is I, I, as a biological parent, I found the early years.
I had to put quite a lot of effort into that. Myself, and I think that's really interesting that I can see that parallel. but a lot of assumptions of people from people saying,
Esther: yeah,
Rebecca: this must be X for you. And it's oh, okay. That's not how it's feeling. So, that's really, great.
Dannie-Lu: Thank you. I feel like there's a question we were going to ask about what is, what feels good, what's challenging and what people can get wrong about the reality of your life. And you've covered actually in you just talking there, you've covered a lot,
Rebecca: Mm
Dannie-Lu: if there's anything specific in that question, Esther,want to pick up on that you feel like you haven't articulated already.
I think what feels good about the reality of my life is that it's that absolute 100 percent decision to not negotiate what success looks like, what fulfillment looks like with anybody outside of our family space. Like it feels really good to say that actually. I'm a mother of four children and that's it. Not like I'm a mother of two biological children, two step children, not having to explain, this is what my family looks like. I'm a mother to four and that feels really good. End of conversation. what sometimes doesn't feel so good is, when you kind of have to explain it away and say, these are my stepchildren, these are my biological children, or actually what's quite interesting is, it's Christmas time, and Christmas presents under the tree, [00:32:00] but there's only presents for my biological children.
Esther: There's my family,
mm Do you know what
Rebecca: right?
Esther: and people generally, We're not in that space so much now, but we have
Rebecca: Mm,
Esther: and we have been, we've come such a long way. And that's not, that's not to blame. I mean, that's just people kind of not really understanding our dynamic and how I am.
So actually there's. presents under the tree for everybody. No one's getting, even, even if my stepchildren aren't there on Christmas Day, when they come, they're gifts.
Rebecca: mm
Esther: explaining is rooted very much in a traditional, architecture of what family looks like.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: mm-Hmm.
Dannie-Lu: is changing so
Esther: Which, yeah, that framework, that the need to overexplain is, it's come from a traditional framework of what family looks like. And actually, this is my family, we're a big family of four. I have two teenagers, I have two smaller children. Yes, my teenagers are from my husband's first marriage and that's the end of the conversation.
Did you, how did you navigate that? Were you, because I suppose what you were talking about around the sort of the growth and the learning as one goes through and you, a lot happened to you very quick.
yeah.
Dannie-Lu: happen in a short window. would it be fair to say that there was a navigation as well for you recognizing for your family, for example, There was a navigation for them and it,
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: shape of it might look different to the navigation for you.
Esther: Yeah. and I think it's just allowing, just being gracious, actually, and allowing time because, some of these things just take time to fall into place. And now, it all works and it's all great. And, we're all one big family and none of that is there anymore. And I just, I think sometimes it is that thing of leadership, actually, and just. Allowing things to grow and it's kind of like a servant leadership you meet people where they are not where you want them to be.
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: And that's kind of what we [00:34:00] have to do. So I can model my love for all of my children to my family and beyond.
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: And it's either they follow my leadership away, or I just continue to create that environment where they have no choice, to follow my leadership. If that makes sense. and it has worked that way,
Dannie-Lu: So it's like almost like a tenacity in there
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: tenacity
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: is how we're doing it.
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: take as long as you want, but I'm not moving.
Esther: Yeah.
Rebecca: I want to be,
Dannie-Lu: that.
Rebecca: I don't think I've ever said this phrase before, but I want you to be my manager. that's what I want to hear from any manager, like creating the environment that I, so you said that you, you got a potential book.
Can we talk about your potential book?
Esther: So, yeah, so I'm writing a book at the moment. and it's a bit scary because for a long time I've been, I've done chapters in other people's books, which has been, and it's kind of like I've done that thing where I've left it till the midnight hour, but still managed to get it over the line.
But this is kind of like book that I have to deliver by January. And it's got to be this amount of words and I'm well behind on the book and it's quite stressful, but it's all going to work. And it's about step parenting. the moment the draft title is Step Parenting the Big Adventure and it is a Christian publisher that has published the book. I'm trying very hard to make it as accessible as possible and use verses in the Bible that most people are familiar with and know. And I'm really excited because it's going to be kind of like a devotional or like a meditation type book where you can just open it at any page and read something.
So it's not going to have January 1, 2, 3, because that's pressure, right?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: must
Rebecca: absolutely.
Dannie-Lu: this
Esther: Yeah, It's just gonna be a devotional type meditational book and you can open it at any page, you can have it by your bed, or if you're going through a particular challenge at that time, you can just [00:36:00] open it and find a day and it will have 300 words on a practical advice based on my experience.
And then it's got something called stepping stones at the end, which is 100 Practical tips, on what you can do or what I did and things like have your cabinet, have your friends around you, if these people are not working, if they're not, if your friendships are not adding value, then you need to kind of revisit that cabinet and make sure that everyone is adding value to your life's journey. and then I've got some case studies. So at the moment I'm speaking to people who are also step parents and there's going to be about five case studies within it of people's experience. So hopefully it's really practical and really helpful for people.
Dannie-Lu: It's amazing. that book is so needed
Esther: I think it is.
Dannie-Lu: lot of step parents out there going, I don't know what
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: I follow? What do I, where's the manual? and it sounds like you're writing something really accessible that people can take guidance from, but it's not prescriptive, but it's
Esther: No.
Dannie-Lu: for you, which is, I definitely will be buying that book.
Esther: Thank you.
Rebecca: I think I was going to ask kind of what got you to write in the book and it feels very much like you've, talked about this being a journey and you learning so much and wanting to celebrate it and seeing the positive sides of it. and also the challenges
And that sounds like that's kind of, your reason for the book was about wanting to, share your experience with it.
Esther: Yeah. Absolutely. Step families have so many layers. I've always said that like my marriage is like an onion. It's got so many layers and some of those layers make you cry, right? Yeah. and I didn't have something like that, 12 years ago, and I possibly made some mistakes along the way.yeah, I definitely made a lot of mistakes, but I think it doesn't matter, the thing about mistakes is that they give you the gift of experience, right? And we learn. so I hope that it is [00:38:00] something that can help people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dannie-Lu: parenting. Or the way that you're talking about it specifically, there's almost a guide for like how to be a good, in society, right? it's a universal thing. It's creating cohesion.
It's creating fairness and equality. It feels oh, that's the guide for society, not just step parents to me.
Esther: Yeah, I think so. there's a chapter very early on in the book that, that I, it's called Mergers. This is a bit of a. sneak peek, but it's, I called it mergers and mercy. And it's a bit like when a corporate organizations, they merge and you have all these chief execs at the top who have decided that in order to save money and to be a sustainable business, we all need to merge together.
So all the chief execs, all of the boards are on the page And then they do that merge, but then none of the staff have bought into it. Because they've not cascaded it. They've not done any internal comms or anything like that. And then you have to do all that work beneath behind the scenes to make it work and step parenting is a bit like that because two people fall in love and they're like, we're getting married, this is what we're doing.
Or we're going to be partners. This is what we're doing. We're going to live together. This is what we're going to do. but the kids didn't get the memo, right?
Dannie-Lu: Right.
Rebecca: They didn't have the change management seminar.
Esther: they didn't know. So now you've got to do this whole internal comms piece and that takes time, It's so important that we are kind to ourselves and after ourselves in that process.
Rebecca: What an interesting analogy for families, company mergers.
Dannie-Lu: We are loving doing this podcast. It's a massive passion project for us and. We would love your help and support,
Rebecca: So it costs about 50 a month to keep it trucking along, so that's not [00:40:00] including our time or anything like that. we'd love to cover that amount now just for the first season, that would be amazing.
Dannie-Lu: it would be great, wouldn't it?if we could break even, that's quite often a win these days, so
Rebecca: Yeah,
Dannie-Lu: happy with that. the ways that you can help us do it. we have a Ko fi page, which we will put the link to in the show notes. You can make a one off contribution or you can become a member, which means that every month you can buy us the equivalent of a posh coffee, and it goes a long way in terms of how we
develop and deliver this podcast.
Rebecca: Yeah, you'll get loads out of that little coffee because we're putting so much time into the whole thing as well
Dannie-Lu: You can also rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts, whichever channel you listen to them on. If you can take a few minutes to click the stars, that really helps raise our profile, raise our visibility.
And it's also useful for us to see what you think of it.
Rebecca: And tell us, there's a form on the website, tell us what you think as well, like, don't use a really weird AI bot.
Dannie-Lu: be a real human.
Rebecca: Be a human, and we'd love to hear what you think, for sure.
Dannie-Lu: Definitely. And also share it. If you feel like this is. valuable for people in your world, please do. If you have platforms that you want to share it on, review it on, mention us on, we will be really, really grateful for that So don't just think it, share it.
Rebecca: Yeah. If we are only able to do, this first season, then great, we'll still be so, so proud of all of this. it continues to be wonderful. We've met so many amazing people. We can carry it on,If you've got skills in PR, Editing, marketing, fundraising.
please get in touch because we would love to grow our little community of people telling these stories and we know that we'll be more resilient with this, what me and Danny Lou have done all over the place is we build little communities around what we're doing.
So if you feel like you'd like to be part of that, [00:42:00] amazing, get in touch.
Dannie-Lu: Totally.
I, um, there's one more bit of feedback
Rebecca: yeah.
Dannie-Lu: actually, which probably ties into what we're talking about, which is from Lucy North, um, and for full transparency, Lucy's a friend of mine.
She's also childless, not by choice. And she wrote, uh, we have so much in common as childless women and as parents. don't see that most of the time. This podcast is brilliant. Well done.
Rebecca: Yay. Oh, that's so cool.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah. And I love that.
Because that was the thing that, that was the initial thought that kicked us into this space, wasn't it? That we had that conversation between us, like, that there's so much more crossover than people realise often.
Rebecca: so if you could wave a magic wand and change something about society, what do you think you would do?
Esther: so I think the one thing that I would do was, would be to help everybody to understand that they should never negotiate away who they are in order to make other people feel comfortable,really take ownership of who you are, what defines you, what is important to you. Protect that it's not up for sale There are many things that I could negotiate with you, but my value, my character, who I am, what success looks like for me, that's not something that I'm prepared to negotiate.
We should encourage everybody in the world to think that way. We won't put pressure on people to look a certain way or be a certain thing, know, and then surround ourselves with people that add value to our lives.
Dannie-Lu: That's powerful. A really powerful one that brought tears to my eyes, that
Esther: Is
Rebecca: [00:44:00] Oh,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: yeah,
Dannie-Lu: and have a word to myself now, I think.
Rebecca: Thank you.
Esther: thank you.
Dannie-Lu: you.
Esther: This, this, this cupboard worked
Dannie-Lu: good, we can thank the cupboard,
Esther: I thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.
Rebecca:
Rebecca:
hello, and welcome to It's a Bit More Complicated Than That, where we are listening to all the fascinating, sad, joyful, messy answers that follow the question, So, do you have kids? I'm Rebecca.
Dannie-Lu: I'm Dannie-Lu,
Rebecca: I'm a parent.
Dannie-Lu: and I'm not. But it's a bit more complicated than that. And that's the same for pretty much every one of our guests.
Rebecca: Every episode, we ask one guest whether they're a parent or not, whether it's a bit more complicated than that, and a few other questions about their journey. we see where it goes.
Dannie-Lu: And to finish, we give them a magic wand and ask if there's anything they'd change about society if they could.
Rebecca: In this episode we speak to Esther. Esther is a communications director, former broadcast journalist and is passionate about creating successful teams. She's a mother of four who had both her bio children between the ages of 40 and 42 and has two stepchildren.
Dannie-Lu: She talks about the wonderful highs along with lows and addresses how people's attitudes towards her biological children and stepchildren have sometimes been different and how she has worked to create the inclusive family they all want. She talks about the importance of having a strong cabinet of friends and a good support network.
Rebecca: We're also, in this podcast, as we are on episode three, going to share some of your great feedback about the podcast so far, our buzzy excitement about how things have been going, and a few requests from us.
It is so good to have you here. Thank [00:02:00] you.
Dannie-Lu: so, it, this is episode three. we're in and we're going.
Rebecca: we launched two together. Um, what was really exciting was the downloads kept happening. So we did our, you know, we had our date and we shared it and we told people and I told people as much as I could,
Yeah.
Rebecca: as I could,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: but then I would check and there was a download and then there was another few downloads and every week there's been, somebody somewhere has found it and then somebody somewhere has told somebody else and somebody somewhere has told somebody else.
And that's really exciting. Yeah,
Dannie-Lu: exciting. And I like that. I like the idea. I don't know if this is an age thing. Maybe it is, but I like the idea of things slowly catching rather than it being like this big kind of like noise and this huge, you know, everyone listens to it and it's this big deal. And then it goes quiet.
I like the idea of things slowly catching. Catching and feeding to each other. it feels more old school to me like mix tapes.
Rebecca: what do you mean like mixtapes?
Dannie-Lu: Well, you make a mix tape for someone, wouldn't you? Like this is what you remember this we're the same age. You used to make a mix tape for somebody with all your sort of favorite hits, I would sit with Annie Nightingale and go, Ooh, it's Pop Will Eat Itself's new one.
Click record, you know, clunky. then I'd share my mixed tips with people and go, here has tunes that I love. I'll record this bit of vinyl so you can have a listen And it felt really organic and connecting and I, and there's something I like about, The slow catch of things in today's noisy, world,
It feels, it feels more aligned to that way or maybe I'm just being nostalgic and sentimental.
Rebecca: More like a mixtape than a, like a big global launch blast is what you're saying. Oh yeah,
Dannie-Lu: Like with a big multimillion, I mean, not that we've got anywhere near that sort of money, but that, you know, a big multimedia backed, [00:04:00] campaign that you don't have any choice whether you engage with it or not, because it's thrust at you. This is like slowly catching for people who genuinely want to listen.
And I like that.
Rebecca: groovy, yeah.
I've got a bit of specific feedback, from one of the episodes and I think it was, I think it was Bernice.
Dannie-Lu: Cool.
Rebecca: Because we did talk about regrets with Berenice, I think, didn't we? Yeah. so this person said, it's a topic that's really hard to listen to and you made it really accessible and compelling, which was lovely. And also,
she says she's afraid of regrets and of people talking about them and, Berenice had some big regrets and was good at laying them out and owning them.
She was pretty remarkable all round and I would agree with that.
Dannie-Lu: I'd
Rebecca: it was,
Dannie-Lu: eloquent,
Rebecca: Yeah,
also did talk about the privilege of being part of a conversation that they are not normally part of as well, that, that, because they're a parent and they were really privileged to be part of this conversation, which I think is really similar. And I felt the same about Berenice.
Dannie-Lu: a bit more feedback from Katie is very good chat. So the other thing is that, there's a lot of really good chat, not necessarily, all 100 percent deep, deep, deep. bit like life. Some of it is just chat.I think it's, That thing about the privilege of being able to listen to other people's stories. And I feel the same way, actually, when I hear people's stories about parenting, I feel quite privileged because I'm ordinarily not in that space. Or I feel on the outside, like, you know, nose pressed against the window, like I'm on the outside.
Whereas actually when we're having that conversation, we're all part of it, it is a privilege. I think that simply highlights. How important it is to have those conversations for everybody and the need for it in society as on the whole, you know, like to be able to have those conversations without awkwardness or competitiveness or one upmanship or pity just to be in that space where we can hold that,
Rebecca: a lovely list of words that we want to avoid. That's great. Yeah, totally. Exactly that. [00:06:00] I think we should introduce Esther, actually, and then we can, come back in the middle of the episode, tell you a few more reviews.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: I keep saying reviews, I mean feedback. We've had no reviews. If anybody would like to review the podcast,
. We can talk more about that, in a bit. please enjoy our chat with Esther.
Dannie-Lu:
Rebecca: Hey, it's really,
Dannie-Lu: you.
Rebecca: really good to see you. And thank you for making time.
Dannie-Lu: you want to introduce yourself, Esther?
Esther: I am Esther Kuku. I am a mother to four, a bio mum to two, and a step mum to two.
Dannie-Lu: And I work in pr,
Rebecca: Thank you.
Dannie-Lu: because of that, would you class yourself as a parent, a non parent, or is it a bit more complicated than that?
Esther: so I would classify myself as a parent to four, I don't always say that I'm a stepparent. sometimes I don't because I've been on the journey for about. Well I've been on the journey for13 years now.
So, They're all my babies. every now and again, external factors remind me that they're my stepchildren. I always kind of have to have that sense. So sometimes people will. remind me that they're not my children, which is fine. That's okay. But as far as I'm concerned, they're my babies. They're my husband's babies. It's taken me a long time to get to where we are on this journey. They were actually there before my biological children were. So, it all works.
Dannie-Lu: It's interesting. I'm also a step parent, but because I'm childless, I tend to always differentiate, I'm a part time step parent.
Esther: Okay.
Dannie-Lu: I'm just wondering if there's [00:08:00] nuances there, or maybe it's just individual to individual. I don't know.
Esther: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I got married when I was 40
Dannie-Lu: Mm
Esther: I was like single, single, single, single forever, like forever. And I'd almost, I'm quite a positive person, so I wouldn't say I'd given up on the dream of having children. But what I would say is that I became quite practical and said, Oh, actually, I don't really mind.my kids don't have to come from my own body. I'm cool with adoption. I'm cool with, just being a step mum. being in this role now, and knowing the journey, and knowing how genuinely challenging it's been At times,
Dannie-Lu: Mm mm
Esther: totally own like my step parent side of who I, who I am. And I totally talk about it because it's taken us a long time to get to this place of peace and this space of peace where, where we are. It didn't happen overnight. So I'm kind of proud of the journey and where we've, where we've come from.
Dannie-Lu: I love that.
Rebecca: You talk, so you talked already about the journey and maybe, could you tell us a little bit about how, yeah, about that journey?
Esther: Yeah.
Rebecca: How? Well,
Esther: we were married and he had, he'd been divorced and he had two children from his first marriage. And, We, we immediately said he, I was kind of like quite clear, like I didn't, I didn't mind whether was quite happy to be just be a step mum.
I was also quite happy to have children. I've got friends that really have a very deep yearning for children. I've never been that person that is going [00:10:00] to mortgage their house for IVF. but that's fine. And I know people that have, and that's absolutely fine.
But I've never been that person. So just thought we'd try and see what happens. And Oh my God, it was like, my husband just has to blow on me. And I conceived, literally, right? So, literally, so I mean, I got, I got pregnant straight away, and then I got pregnant, and then I lost one, and then I got pregnant again, straight away, so I had one child at 40. And another at 41. And then also had my Also my, my, my bio babies were first. They came first. And then, it was quite challenging. And people talk about blended families. And I don't, I don't. I'm very careful about that term because actually I think that when you're in a step parent scenario, you would just not blended on day one, or even on year one, or year two, or year three, or year four.
I think it's really hard.
Dannie-Lu: mm
Esther: you have to make a decision that actually. We're just going to work at it. nobody dreams of being a step parent, I think. I mean, I think it's, it's often through bereavement or loss,redesigned plans, repackaged dreams, a new, a new adventure unfolds, and you kind of have to embrace that adventure, I just think, I mean, somebody could come along and challenge me on it, but I don't know anyone in my social circle that dreamed when they were a child or a young girl or a young man of being a step parent, it just, it just happens. And that new, and you go with it. And I think for us, it was tricky because I got pregnant straight away and then suddenly I was trying to be a bio parent and then trying to be a step parent at the same time.
And then there was the dynamics of, as my children got older, My bio children got older, kind of wondering why these other children were coming and going all the [00:12:00] time. it was genuinely, very challenging. I wouldn't change it for the world,
Dannie-Lu: mm
Esther: but it was challenging. And then there's also, I had people who say to me,why did you decide to be a step parent?
Why did you decide to take on a, whole family? And it was kind of like, well, because that's what I wanted to do and that's what success looks like for me and I'm far too old to be negotiating who I am to make somebody else feel comfortable, we're not doing that, right? I decided to be a step parent because I love my husband and these children are part of his life and actually they're really beautiful children. And yes, it is really difficult, but it's my difficult and I love it. our difficult and we love it and we work through it.
Dannie-Lu: that. It's so beautiful and it's so accepting. I wonder if you, or what your thoughts are around how open we are. I mean, you started to allude to this a bit already about how open we are societally about the role of step parenting. 'cause it, we almost don't talk about it in the same way that we talk about parenting.
Do we?
Esther: No, and I guess there's a part of it, if you're not in it, is that thing for people who are on the outside of it who kind of look at it and think that it's some kind of consolation prize,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah,
Esther: and,
Dannie-Lu: Mm hmm.
Esther: but it isn't, people, It's the fact that it, step parents, the step parenting space is a result of either bereavement or loss, how it occurs and within that, there's a huge amount of restoration and reconciliation and healing that needs to take place in children's lives and in the spouse, whether it's a man or a woman, who's at the center of that.
And I think we do need to be open. I think we need um, conversations about step parenting, about saying that it's complex saying that it can be draining sometimes, but then also saying that actually it's a really beautiful thing. And in our [00:14:00] relationship and in our marriage, my, husband was divorced and two children from, My husband's divorce.
And actually those two children have been so blessed and are in such a different space now. And my husband is in such a different space now. and I just think it's a huge opportunity to grow, to grow and to start afresh and to have fresh beginnings. And actually, youI do think that there's a certain element of. People's judgment around it and people's questioning around it. But like I said earlier, I think it's okay. when you're a step parent, if you're outside of that, it isn't for me to help you, to make you feel comfortable about the role that I am. it's for me to actually just crack on and be amazing in my role, embrace my role. know that I'm amazing, know that my stepchildren are amazing and just keep it. Moving and sometimes in the step parent space, it's really complex. Sometimes you are the main character. Sometimes you're the supporting actress and sometimes you're the stagehand. And I think it's just very important to understand which one of those three roles you're playing. Early on in my step parent relationship, I was very much. the stagehand. I very much had to let my husband, deal with his ex wife, although I wanted to kind of get in there and say my two pence because that's the type of person, I very much wanted to get in there and let me defend, let me speak, I don't have any emotional ties to this human being. Let me help you. But actually that was never going to work. So there was times when I literally had to be the stagehand. There was, times when I literally had to be the supporting character and just support my husband, to navigate through the change and to actually take a step back and say, well, he knows these children better than I do actually. So let me just let him take the lead and let me not try to want to change the world overnight in my home. And then, As we grew on that journey, there were times when I was actually, [00:16:00] absolutely the main character,
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: This is our home.
This is my space. This is how I want my kitchen. This is how things are going to be done. This is how we're going to parent here. This is how you're going to speak to me. This is what respect looks like,and it's all a journey, but I think it's just really being confident and just helping people outside because life changes and society's changes, you're going to have more families that look different, families are going to look incredibly different, as we grow and change as a society. And we have to take ownership of our different
Dannie-Lu: Mm
Esther: and help people to understand what our different is and say, look, I'm not going to, I'm not going to, I'm not negotiating this with you. This is how it is. It's amazing. It's great. It's not, it's not the consolation prize because your home, you had children really easily and got married straight away, pushed out some kids, lived happily ever after. Happily ever after isn't everybody's reality. And we have to get comfortable like that. And we have to be generous and gracious knowing that.
Rebecca: feedback. Let's read some more feedback.
Dannie-Lu: should I do one?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: So this is from Elizabeth Adams Elizabeth shared this on LinkedIn. she said, I've just followed this podcast and I'm halfway through the first full pod. I am already immediately obsessed and obsessed as in block up
Rebecca: Woo!
Dannie-Lu: I like that. I like that she's obsessed and I do know, that Elizabeth is a parent.
That's something I do know about her.
Rebecca: Well, I've got one from Marica who says your podcast is everything
Dannie-Lu: Oh,
Rebecca: it with my girlfriends who are still on the fence about motherhood It's so refreshing to hear women openly discuss the topics. We [00:18:00] often struggle to talk about or that are considered a taboo
Dannie-Lu: oh my goodness. What a great bit of feedback that is.
Rebecca: I've got another one, and I think I've Yeah, I've got another one.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: so this is from somebody that, uh, would really like to be a guest.
I really love talking about this stuff because it's important and I want it to be easier for the next generations to bridge the so called gap between parented and non parented.
Dannie-Lu: Yes.
Rebecca: another, and there are many potential, people we could talk to, with different experiences that are keen to share.
Dannie-Lu: I like that piece of,feedback because that is a, probably a reason why we're doing it, isn't it? It's to change the course of, of the conversation and the awareness for future generations. And I think it is really important, hence some of the stuff we've talked about already actually, that we miss that.
And it ties into the conversation we had with Esther around You know, sometimes people say, and if you don't have children or you don't have your own biological children, you don't have a stake in the future, you know, some of that nonsense narrative that's out there
Rebecca: Hmm.
Dannie-Lu: how it's like, well, we're part of a society and a community.
So we do actually, and if you can influence some of the conversations or create safer spaces or more permissive conversations around things that historically have been a bit more taboo or not talked about, that to me is a stake in the future in a big way. So that's joyous that that feedback came in to me.
Esther:
Rebecca: You said about opportunities for growth, which I think is really exciting with children as well. I think I sometimes wonder if people wait for children to be adults before they, we spend a lot of time in school, but like the idea that they would be learning and growing through this experience.
It's really exciting. IYeah, it's a thing that maybe they weren't expecting to happen in their lives, but it's an opportunity for growth. you said as well that you [00:20:00] had, your bio babies quite quickly. So I was just wondering if you could describe a bit about living in that home where you are grappling with a, I'm assuming a quite a big change at 40.
Esther: Yeah.
Rebecca: So how did it feel like being a main player and a supporting player in the same space?
Esther: So, I think it was very challenging because there were so many people's emotions that you're trying to balance. It's like everyone's got different sets of emotion and you're trying to manage everybody And make everyone feel happy and, you quite often come last, which actually goes against all of what I kind of believe and all of what I might post on LinkedIn, but it's the reality and actually children always have to come first.
It's really annoying, but it's the reality. It's true. Right. It really was making my Beautiful stepchildren understand they were not now being kind of pushed out, and that they, was this new, beautiful, cute, and some of it, I think it's girls. So I have a boy and a girl stepchildren who are adults now nearly, but, then, my husband's daughter is very protective.
So it was really trying to help everyone understand that. Like I am mama, like I'm mama bear and I have enough love for everybody, and just trying to help people to everyone in that space, all of the children in that space to understand that, this was good change. This was positive change.
We can all play a role in that new space and new children coming into the equation. Initially, it was about my stepchildren and making them understand that they were [00:22:00] totally loved. and weren't suddenly going to get pushed out. But then also very quickly it changed because they had already become accustomed to kind of like an every other weekend lifestyle.
But my children didn't really understand what that was about or what that was, or why
Dannie-Lu: Mm.
Esther: kept coming in and kept going. it became quite upsetting for them because they loved it. brother and sister and trying to help them understand. So really, I think, it's a long way of saying it those early years.
I certainly didn't put myself first, because I don't, I wasn't in a position to. Yeah.
Rebecca: I don't know how you feel about this, Dannie. I wonder how you were so wise about that whilst also being so new to it. It feels like there was, there was a foresight and a wisdom that you had. And I think about me floundering around with one baby, barely being able to cope with a hell of a lot of support all everywhere.
And me just kind of grabbing every bit of support and going, yes, I'll take this. I just feel like that, how do you think, where do you think that came from? That knowledge? Hmm.
Esther: think that I would be being, very selfish if I didn't say this, but I'm a Christian, so I go to church. So I have quite a strong Christian faith. And so prayer works for me and on a practical level, if, if you're listening to this and you're not of a faith background, having a really close cabinet of friends that are just there just understand, people in our world that add value. I'm very particular about, in fact, I'm really choosy about who I have around me and. People who are going to add value and celebrate me where I am and in the space that I'm in is really important. And people just saying, can I help you? Can I come [00:24:00] round? Now, how are you feeling? helping me with taking my kids off me for a little while so I could,get some rest. I think having the right people around us. Throughout life's journey, because it does get complicated. I mean, I say to people all the time, God, you get all of this stuff that you really wanted and then suddenly it's hard.
You don't know what to do with it.
Dannie-Lu: Ha
Esther: I went from having no kids and being 40, like being 39. Like, when am I going to meet somebody? When am I going to meet someone? Like forever and ever and ever to suddenly having it all,
Rebecca: Hmm. All plus.
Esther: all plus.
Dannie-Lu: though, like within a
Esther: Yeah. And just having, girlfriends that I can go to whose shoulders I can cry
Rebecca: Hmm.
Esther: know, or who could help me or people that I could just be real with and actually say stuff that isn't, doesn't sound wise, but the spaces I could like totally rant in
Rebecca: Hmm.
Esther: and say, how did I get here?
What is this? I think it's really important for all of us.
Rebecca: Well, it shows the power of that because you were able to reassure small human beings that like you said, I've got love for everybody, there's a lot of actions you need to take.
to be able to reassure those people, that you've got enough love for them. there's actions behind that, aren't there?
Esther: and especially, when there's background noise, when there are ex spouses involved and there was some, there's background noise that isn't always going to be helpful, I remember after I had my first child, I remember actually somebody in my family, the last person that you would expect to say. You're like, don't have another one. just, just don't do not have another one. Look at all this that's going on already. thought it was so funny. Like somebody very close to my family says, don't have, have another one. And then a work colleague who is, who must've been in her late fifties, an older Scottish white lady sort of pulled me to one side and said. You have to have another one.
Dannie-Lu: So you're getting pulled in completely different directions [00:26:00] by these people.
Esther: And two really different people, right?
Rebecca: Wow.
Esther: to have another one. you can't leave her in the world alone like this. you've got to have one more,
Dannie-Lu: Wow.
Esther: and I did. It was really,
Rebecca: Wow. She obviously,
Esther: she has a lot to say.
and it was almost like that was just her role, right?
Cause she was a work, I've never seen her again in 10 years, like some people just show up for a purpose.
Rebecca: Wow.
Esther: hasn't been easy, it has been complicated. But as I said, it's our complicated and we own it and we are proud of it, and I always say some of the most beautiful things come out of mess.
if you think of lilies in a lily pond, like I know this stuff, I'm not like a gardener or anything, but if you look at lilies, like how they grow.
Dannie-Lu: Mm.
Esther: from, from they, they don't need anything and they like stagnant ponds and they just flourish and have life. I think step parents are just step parenting and that whole step parenting space is such a beautiful, representation of redemption, and forgiveness and healing and the transformative power of healing and how something can be either be really broken And, somebody walks in and, and if you think about, if I think about my life, I didn't know why I was like single for so long.
And I was in some of that time I was really low. I was like, well, what about me? What about me?and, but all of that time, it was like a process. it was like a preparation period for what was going to come. And I'm so glad that I didn't squander that time. I'm so glad that I traveled and I did lots of stuff and I made the most of my life.
And, cause now I'm quite happy to just be at home and be a mama and look after everybody. It suits me. I don't see it as, lesser than it's, it's my most important for me. well, it's, it's my most important title, like being a director or being really senior and what I do is, is, is secondary to making sure that I help each of those [00:28:00] four kids have the very best in life that, that they can.
And they all know that my step, I mean, I mentor to my stepchildren now, it, it, it all works.
Dannie-Lu: Mm. I love what you're saying because it sort of makes me think about, The responsibility we all have because I'm obviously childless and I have had those comments of,that are out into the world. what have you got invested into the future? Right. And I think, but what you've articulated so beautifully is that we've all got responsibility to nurture the young people in
Esther: There we have it.
Dannie-Lu: birth to them or not, it actually doesn't matter. And I think what you're talking about there is such a beautiful crystallization of that. it's almost like a North Star in there for all of us. Yeah.
Esther: And I think sometimes, there is this thing where, people project on us their version of what success looks like,
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: or their version of what fulfillment is,
Dannie-Lu: Mm hmm.
Esther: or should be. And, and we, I, like the effort and the attention that I put into my biological children, the investment that I make into them, I mean, Equally I make into my stepchildren they're older and they're teenagers and they're going through of Things I check in on them all the time, I love them differently and then that's another part of the step parent, you know, you have to be honest and say, like, 10 years ago, you don't have stepchildren and automatically love them. love grows over time. It's not automatic. And I think that we have to allow ourselves to with in the step parenting space to understand that you don't meet somebody, have a partner, get married, automatically adore their stepchildren. cause sometimes their stepchildren can be tricky. They, it can be complex. It doesn't always land well straight away, but over time that love grows. It's not the same love but it, but it's love. It's, it's love all the same. Yeah,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah, absolutely.
Rebecca: I mean, I would add that [00:30:00] there's an awful lot of effort. in biological parenting. And I think that there's an assumption there as well that that happens immediately. I'm seeing kind of these little imaginary bridges appearing in our conversations every time we have conversations and that, that little imaginary bridge of understanding that I have with you is I, I, as a biological parent, I found the early years.
I had to put quite a lot of effort into that. Myself, and I think that's really interesting that I can see that parallel. but a lot of assumptions of people from people saying,
Esther: yeah,
Rebecca: this must be X for you. And it's oh, okay. That's not how it's feeling. So, that's really, great.
Dannie-Lu: Thank you. I feel like there's a question we were going to ask about what is, what feels good, what's challenging and what people can get wrong about the reality of your life. And you've covered actually in you just talking there, you've covered a lot,
Rebecca: Mm
Dannie-Lu: if there's anything specific in that question, Esther,want to pick up on that you feel like you haven't articulated already.
I think what feels good about the reality of my life is that it's that absolute 100 percent decision to not negotiate what success looks like, what fulfillment looks like with anybody outside of our family space. Like it feels really good to say that actually. I'm a mother of four children and that's it. Not like I'm a mother of two biological children, two step children, not having to explain, this is what my family looks like. I'm a mother to four and that feels really good. End of conversation. what sometimes doesn't feel so good is, when you kind of have to explain it away and say, these are my stepchildren, these are my biological children, or actually what's quite interesting is, it's Christmas time, and Christmas presents under the tree, [00:32:00] but there's only presents for my biological children.
Esther: There's my family,
mm Do you know what
Rebecca: right?
Esther: and people generally, We're not in that space so much now, but we have
Rebecca: Mm,
Esther: and we have been, we've come such a long way. And that's not, that's not to blame. I mean, that's just people kind of not really understanding our dynamic and how I am.
So actually there's. presents under the tree for everybody. No one's getting, even, even if my stepchildren aren't there on Christmas Day, when they come, they're gifts.
Rebecca: mm
Esther: explaining is rooted very much in a traditional, architecture of what family looks like.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: mm-Hmm.
Dannie-Lu: is changing so
Esther: Which, yeah, that framework, that the need to overexplain is, it's come from a traditional framework of what family looks like. And actually, this is my family, we're a big family of four. I have two teenagers, I have two smaller children. Yes, my teenagers are from my husband's first marriage and that's the end of the conversation.
Did you, how did you navigate that? Were you, because I suppose what you were talking about around the sort of the growth and the learning as one goes through and you, a lot happened to you very quick.
yeah.
Dannie-Lu: happen in a short window. would it be fair to say that there was a navigation as well for you recognizing for your family, for example, There was a navigation for them and it,
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: shape of it might look different to the navigation for you.
Esther: Yeah. and I think it's just allowing, just being gracious, actually, and allowing time because, some of these things just take time to fall into place. And now, it all works and it's all great. And, we're all one big family and none of that is there anymore. And I just, I think sometimes it is that thing of leadership, actually, and just. Allowing things to grow and it's kind of like a servant leadership you meet people where they are not where you want them to be.
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: And that's kind of what we [00:34:00] have to do. So I can model my love for all of my children to my family and beyond.
Dannie-Lu: hmm.
Esther: And it's either they follow my leadership away, or I just continue to create that environment where they have no choice, to follow my leadership. If that makes sense. and it has worked that way,
Dannie-Lu: So it's like almost like a tenacity in there
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: tenacity
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: is how we're doing it.
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: take as long as you want, but I'm not moving.
Esther: Yeah.
Rebecca: I want to be,
Dannie-Lu: that.
Rebecca: I don't think I've ever said this phrase before, but I want you to be my manager. that's what I want to hear from any manager, like creating the environment that I, so you said that you, you got a potential book.
Can we talk about your potential book?
Esther: So, yeah, so I'm writing a book at the moment. and it's a bit scary because for a long time I've been, I've done chapters in other people's books, which has been, and it's kind of like I've done that thing where I've left it till the midnight hour, but still managed to get it over the line.
But this is kind of like book that I have to deliver by January. And it's got to be this amount of words and I'm well behind on the book and it's quite stressful, but it's all going to work. And it's about step parenting. the moment the draft title is Step Parenting the Big Adventure and it is a Christian publisher that has published the book. I'm trying very hard to make it as accessible as possible and use verses in the Bible that most people are familiar with and know. And I'm really excited because it's going to be kind of like a devotional or like a meditation type book where you can just open it at any page and read something.
So it's not going to have January 1, 2, 3, because that's pressure, right?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: must
Rebecca: absolutely.
Dannie-Lu: this
Esther: Yeah, It's just gonna be a devotional type meditational book and you can open it at any page, you can have it by your bed, or if you're going through a particular challenge at that time, you can just [00:36:00] open it and find a day and it will have 300 words on a practical advice based on my experience.
And then it's got something called stepping stones at the end, which is 100 Practical tips, on what you can do or what I did and things like have your cabinet, have your friends around you, if these people are not working, if they're not, if your friendships are not adding value, then you need to kind of revisit that cabinet and make sure that everyone is adding value to your life's journey. and then I've got some case studies. So at the moment I'm speaking to people who are also step parents and there's going to be about five case studies within it of people's experience. So hopefully it's really practical and really helpful for people.
Dannie-Lu: It's amazing. that book is so needed
Esther: I think it is.
Dannie-Lu: lot of step parents out there going, I don't know what
Esther: Yeah.
Dannie-Lu: I follow? What do I, where's the manual? and it sounds like you're writing something really accessible that people can take guidance from, but it's not prescriptive, but it's
Esther: No.
Dannie-Lu: for you, which is, I definitely will be buying that book.
Esther: Thank you.
Rebecca: I think I was going to ask kind of what got you to write in the book and it feels very much like you've, talked about this being a journey and you learning so much and wanting to celebrate it and seeing the positive sides of it. and also the challenges
And that sounds like that's kind of, your reason for the book was about wanting to, share your experience with it.
Esther: Yeah. Absolutely. Step families have so many layers. I've always said that like my marriage is like an onion. It's got so many layers and some of those layers make you cry, right? Yeah. and I didn't have something like that, 12 years ago, and I possibly made some mistakes along the way.yeah, I definitely made a lot of mistakes, but I think it doesn't matter, the thing about mistakes is that they give you the gift of experience, right? And we learn. so I hope that it is [00:38:00] something that can help people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dannie-Lu: parenting. Or the way that you're talking about it specifically, there's almost a guide for like how to be a good, in society, right? it's a universal thing. It's creating cohesion.
It's creating fairness and equality. It feels oh, that's the guide for society, not just step parents to me.
Esther: Yeah, I think so. there's a chapter very early on in the book that, that I, it's called Mergers. This is a bit of a. sneak peek, but it's, I called it mergers and mercy. And it's a bit like when a corporate organizations, they merge and you have all these chief execs at the top who have decided that in order to save money and to be a sustainable business, we all need to merge together.
So all the chief execs, all of the boards are on the page And then they do that merge, but then none of the staff have bought into it. Because they've not cascaded it. They've not done any internal comms or anything like that. And then you have to do all that work beneath behind the scenes to make it work and step parenting is a bit like that because two people fall in love and they're like, we're getting married, this is what we're doing.
Or we're going to be partners. This is what we're doing. We're going to live together. This is what we're going to do. but the kids didn't get the memo, right?
Dannie-Lu: Right.
Rebecca: They didn't have the change management seminar.
Esther: they didn't know. So now you've got to do this whole internal comms piece and that takes time, It's so important that we are kind to ourselves and after ourselves in that process.
Rebecca: What an interesting analogy for families, company mergers.
Dannie-Lu: We are loving doing this podcast. It's a massive passion project for us and. We would love your help and support,
Rebecca: So it costs about 50 a month to keep it trucking along, so that's not [00:40:00] including our time or anything like that. we'd love to cover that amount now just for the first season, that would be amazing.
Dannie-Lu: it would be great, wouldn't it?if we could break even, that's quite often a win these days, so
Rebecca: Yeah,
Dannie-Lu: happy with that. the ways that you can help us do it. we have a Ko fi page, which we will put the link to in the show notes. You can make a one off contribution or you can become a member, which means that every month you can buy us the equivalent of a posh coffee, and it goes a long way in terms of how we
develop and deliver this podcast.
Rebecca: Yeah, you'll get loads out of that little coffee because we're putting so much time into the whole thing as well
Dannie-Lu: You can also rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts, whichever channel you listen to them on. If you can take a few minutes to click the stars, that really helps raise our profile, raise our visibility.
And it's also useful for us to see what you think of it.
Rebecca: And tell us, there's a form on the website, tell us what you think as well, like, don't use a really weird AI bot.
Dannie-Lu: be a real human.
Rebecca: Be a human, and we'd love to hear what you think, for sure.
Dannie-Lu: Definitely. And also share it. If you feel like this is. valuable for people in your world, please do. If you have platforms that you want to share it on, review it on, mention us on, we will be really, really grateful for that So don't just think it, share it.
Rebecca: Yeah. If we are only able to do, this first season, then great, we'll still be so, so proud of all of this. it continues to be wonderful. We've met so many amazing people. We can carry it on,If you've got skills in PR, Editing, marketing, fundraising.
please get in touch because we would love to grow our little community of people telling these stories and we know that we'll be more resilient with this, what me and Danny Lou have done all over the place is we build little communities around what we're doing.
So if you feel like you'd like to be part of that, [00:42:00] amazing, get in touch.
Dannie-Lu: Totally.
I, um, there's one more bit of feedback
Rebecca: yeah.
Dannie-Lu: actually, which probably ties into what we're talking about, which is from Lucy North, um, and for full transparency, Lucy's a friend of mine.
She's also childless, not by choice. And she wrote, uh, we have so much in common as childless women and as parents. don't see that most of the time. This podcast is brilliant. Well done.
Rebecca: Yay. Oh, that's so cool.
Dannie-Lu: Yeah. And I love that.
Because that was the thing that, that was the initial thought that kicked us into this space, wasn't it? That we had that conversation between us, like, that there's so much more crossover than people realise often.
Rebecca: so if you could wave a magic wand and change something about society, what do you think you would do?
Esther: so I think the one thing that I would do was, would be to help everybody to understand that they should never negotiate away who they are in order to make other people feel comfortable,really take ownership of who you are, what defines you, what is important to you. Protect that it's not up for sale There are many things that I could negotiate with you, but my value, my character, who I am, what success looks like for me, that's not something that I'm prepared to negotiate.
We should encourage everybody in the world to think that way. We won't put pressure on people to look a certain way or be a certain thing, know, and then surround ourselves with people that add value to our lives.
Dannie-Lu: That's powerful. A really powerful one that brought tears to my eyes, that
Esther: Is
Rebecca: [00:44:00] Oh,
Dannie-Lu: Yeah.
Rebecca: yeah,
Dannie-Lu: and have a word to myself now, I think.
Rebecca: Thank you.
Esther: thank you.
Dannie-Lu: you.
Esther: This, this, this cupboard worked
Dannie-Lu: good, we can thank the cupboard,
Esther: I thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.
Rebecca:
