This transcript is AI generated.
[00:00:00] Matt Hall: Hello and welcome back to Principled from MSB.
[00:00:07] Naomi Ward: This season offers international school leaders a provocation to think differently about the future of education and their role in the creation of this future. It's an opportunity to continue thinking seriously and deeply about the legacy that school leaders leave behind through concerted action in the present.
To frame this provocation, we will be bringing together the latest research and thinking about futures focused leadership, alongside insights from interviews with experts from across the international school sector and beyond.
[00:00:39] Matt Hall: Each episode, we will explore a different domain, and in the following episode, we will put the thinking through its paces with a panel of school leaders, some highly experienced, some new in role, and some emerging.
We're so pleased to have you join us. So we're back and uh, looking forward this week to diving into the curriculum assessment pedagogy realm. This one always gets, gets people's juices, juices flowing, doesn't it?
[00:01:08] Naomi Ward: Yes. I think there's a kind of stuckness that we can get locked into around this, but we know Angeline's work, Angeline Au, who's our, who's our guest today.
And, um, I think she has a gift for holding our hand in order to evolve. New cultures, new ways of doing things. So I'm excited to see what she has to say about, about the future of pedagogy curriculum assessment. It's a big topic.
[00:01:37] Matt Hall: Absolutely. And for those that don't know Angelina or aren't familiar with her work, she is, um, an educator and teacher, uh, still working part time at Berlin international school.
Um, but also very involved with the council of international schools, um, as a leading figure in their inclusion and diversity equity initiatives, including looking at humanizing curriculums, which I'm sure she's going to tell us more about. So, uh, yeah, let's go have a chat.
It's lovely to be here again in conversation this time with a, with a friend and someone who knows MSB well, Angeline Au, um, and Angeline, we're reflecting on the paper, the papers, the kind of spine of this series, as everyone knows, and we've come to the habit of asking our guests the following questions.
So brace yourself, um, in light of the paper and in light of the work that you're doing in education. And. Where do you see the world is now, from your perspective?
[00:02:43] Angeline Aow: The world right now is, uh, it's a really tense place to be in. I think, um, yeah, it's, um, on fire in many places, and there's a lot of tensions around the world globally, and, And, you know, everyone's been coming out of COVID times as well, where many people have been dysregulated in different ways.
You see that in our students, you see that in our responses to students, um, and our collaborative capabilities as well. And also in response to the complexities of challenges in the world that, uh, seem to be amplified in certain places, um, and. As international schools, I think, well, for me personally, I feel a responsibility to address that and, and, uh, feel a, an urge to shape international education even further and more forward in order to meet the challenges that are arising.
[00:03:48] Matt Hall: Tell me a little bit more about that, that responsibility and how it shows up for you.
[00:03:52] Angeline Aow: One of my part time roles is with the council of international schools and As international schools, and in response to a lot of research that came out with say the UNESCO and so on, um, you know, many people have in their missions in schools, things like global citizenship, you know, we're, we're going to foster global citizenship and we want to have students, um, come out as better citizens who can make, take local actions and have global impacts.
And, sort of, it's kind of fallen a bit flat, I would say. I mean, we, you know, we put a lot of things in our missions, and, um, when we strategize to try and achieve that in our learning and teaching, what actions have arisen out of that, um, that has stemmed from that, and, and so I think we kind of need to, um, double down a little bit.
And so, at CIS, we did some research around global citizenship. And renewed our mission and vision to say that, uh, we need more than just this goal. Um, and, and we sort of upped it into thinking about socially responsible leadership and leadership in terms of not just as a position or a title, but as developing everyone's capabilities and leaders being people who can.
Make influence wherever they are and with whatever power and positionality they have in their evolving identities. And so for me, it's um, thinking about, you know, just by kind of existing in the world, you know, we, we, we don't exist in isolation. And so when my, in my interactions, day to day interactions with people, I'm thinking what kind of impact do I have?
And also thinking about, of course, then in my spheres of influence, uh, In a school where I'm still based at Berlin International School and, and the teachers I work with, et cetera. And so, I think for me, that's part of the responsibility. Everyone has different ones, wherever they are. Um, we often hear teachers say things like, Oh, I'm just a teacher, but actually that's a big responsibility.
And they, and teachers are, are all the metadata research that comes out from HATI and so on. We'll say that they're the number one impactful thing, um, on learning, right? So yeah, I think that, um, if everyone sort of recognizes and maybe reassesses what our responsibility is, and also, Um, rethinks our educational contract, let's say, um, you know, what we are promising and what we owe our learners, then I think, you know, that's really important to rethink and go back to what is our key purpose here?
[00:06:40] Naomi Ward: All of those things. you know, around purpose and responsibility and even philosophy feel like the reasons why we become teachers. So I'm curious from what you're seeing, what is getting in the way of building on that, um, as, as we get more mature into our careers. And I know, That's not true of everyone, of course, but is there something here that's getting in the way?
[00:07:05] Angeline Aow: That's a good question. I think that sometimes we get in our own way, if that's fair enough to say. Um, you know, I love the, the futurist focus kind of thinking in terms of, you know, how can we sort of remove some of those barriers that might be in the way by looking, thinking about a future that we want to aspire towards.
And if we don't have that creative imagination to really think boldly and differently about where we could be compared to where we are now, then we've already denied ourselves that choice. And so I think sometimes our own thinking gets in the way, and that's what I mean by ourselves. Right? So, um, we, we're so busy upholding the cultural norms and structures that exist now, Because that takes a lot of energy and, and that takes a lot of, um, commitment, but maybe what we're upholding hasn't worked for everyone.
And certainly people and students are telling us that that's the case. And also, we know that the systems that have been designed to date in education have not been equitable and served everybody, hence, you know, all that energy we spend upholding what is currently the thing, um, is, is also getting in the way, right, of us re imagining and doing something very different.
[00:08:32] Matt Hall: Just stay on this point slightly, because I think, you know, some of our listeners might say, well, well, how do you mean, like, what do you mean the systems, Up is upholding existing structures. You know, we're really egalitarian when we come to our teaching. We're really clear about our policies Um, can you point us to some examples of where that that inherent kind of inequality lives in the system at the moment?
[00:08:54] Angeline Aow: Sure um Yeah, I'm just going to pick on something that I think is probably the bane of every, every school design's existence is, is timetabling, right? So for example, um, when you timetabling things, um, at our school, for example, we are a state sponsored international school and so we have to meet some state regulations, which tell us things like you have to have X amount of minutes of teaching English or math or PE and music and so on.
And so that gets in the way. Of having a interdisciplinary or transdisciplinary program that reflects the realities of the world today. And so, you know, structurally too, what's valued as we go from primary or early education into secondary is becoming more specialist in a certain subject. I think that also gets in the way because that's not how the world works.
All right, and so I think that, um, before, I think what used to be really valued were, you know, sophists or generalists and, um, and then all of a sudden, no, no, it's been specialists and when you go to university, you specialize even, even more, right, whereas actually the skills we need are people who can make those connections.
And people who can weave those narratives and, and rethink the future and be able to bring, you know, different specialists together to solve the complexities of the world. And so I think sometimes like, so that thinking, going back to your question about what gets in the way in schools is our structure.
Is reflecting that saying that this is valued in, in spaces, whereas I think it, it shouldn't be that it should be, um, something completely redesigned so that there is, um, more, um, flexibility in timetabling. Um, more disrupting, more space for people to have, you know, longer periods of inquiry and, and, uh, discovery and play rather than having to meet minutes.
Absolutely.
[00:10:59] Naomi Ward: Um, and I'm wondering where this is, you know, cause the future is now and I've no doubt that that's happening in certain spaces. Perhaps in the margins, and I guess what we've not spoken about yet is assessment and how can we grow beyond the metrics that we measure our children's learning by, because that is often the tail that wags the dog.
So your vision for assessment and how that can be our friend in this process of futures design.
[00:11:41] Angeline Aow: I think assessment certainly has. It's driven a lot of the design of our school structures, um. And what's valued in school spaces. And I think that, um, to, to kind of counteract that, we need to also go back to thinking about what we value in terms of professions.
And also what we value in terms of people, students contributions to the world, because we are so focused on even certain professions being more valued. Hence, you have to go to university to enter those professions. Whereas, for example, just last night on the street here in my apartment space, um, pipe burst on the street.
And so, you know, some of the, the, the, um, cellars here were under flooding and it's so hard to get a plumber. And meanwhile, that's, you know, not as valued as a profession. As some other professions that are highly esteemed, that people think they need to go to an Ivy League university to go into and to get, um, to do.
Meanwhile, I'm sure, I'm sure as probably as a teacher too, the plumbers probably earn more than we do. I know in Australia, this is true, right? And, and it's a really valuable and valued thing that we need as well. And so, until we shift our thinking about what does it mean to contribute positively to society, and what does it mean for all of our learners to come out and finding something that brings them joy and how they want to contribute to the world and, and be a part of all of the different things that we need to, as a society as well, to help each other in a community.
Then that assessment conversation is never going to shift because the assessments, um, measuring this one thing that people think are valuable in order to get into a university. Meanwhile, some universities are also saying, we don't want that either. We want to bring in people with a, so for example, there's even a global citizenship diploma or there is like, you know, I'm more than just a number of conversations in schools and, and having, you know, portfolios rather than assessments.
Um, for university entrances. So the, uh, conversation there is a little bit, um, chicken and egg also, because, uh, and everyone's chasing, I guess, social capital, financial capital, stability, and all of these things that we think this one pathway is going to get us there. So until we think of, are we measuring what we value?
Um, do we value what we're measuring? Are we working so hard for the data? Or should we have data that works hard for us? So yeah, lots of big questions.
[00:14:38] Naomi Ward: Yeah. And, and I'm just reflecting on how this feels like quite a circular conversation and, and you know, having worked in education for gosh, how old am I really old, 20, 25 years, like we were talking about this a quarter of a century ago.
And I know you're doing some really creative work around curriculum and, um, a part of an anti discriminatory task force in curriculum. And, and so you're an innovator in education. So what's, what's unlocking your thinking towards possibility rather than safety? Of how it's always been. I
[00:15:21] Angeline Aow: think one of the big things that I've been thinking about lately is just shifting my thinking away from more is better, bigger is better.
And then, and because that's also what's driving a lot of this, oh, we have to have a bigger Bigger income or, but that's not necessarily always going to bring us happiness, right? And so, and so really kind of shifting and thinking, what is, what is my value? What do I value here? But I think we've been sold this really capitalist, um, way of thinking and measuring success that is always on this linear upward trajectory.
And our assessments are also in that view. Meanwhile, if we look at every single human being as individuals, and we're wanting, actually, individuals to grow from wherever they are, but we have this one linear measurement where we're putting everyone on. And we're saying this is the average or this is the mean and this is like what people should be doing by the certain grade level.
But guess what? There is no norm. You know, norm doesn't exist. So my child who is 15, he has an intellectual disability. For us, Success for him would be that he would, you know, be successfully toilet trained. And that, you know, is for a 15 year old is something that's not on any chart that exists. Right. And so how do we measure success?
Um, has been so averaged out that it's really lost some meaning and that doesn't value every single human being. Um, That from who they are, what their strengths are, where they can grow, and um, and how we can actually redesign schools so that a child like mine could attend a school where I work rather than having to go to a special school that's, you know, exclusive by design and set up in a system because some systems don't serve him.
And so, yeah, sort of, I guess I don't know if I've answered your question fully, but, uh, but, uh, success doesn't always have one vision and one end. We need to see success in a very individual way that honors each person's and their dignity.
[00:17:52] Matt Hall: Yeah, that really resonates with, um, a lot of the people that were interviewed in the creation of our paper, kind of recognize that the opportunities that exist, particularly in international schools to develop kind of in house curricula, um, that, that lead us towards these kind of happy, agentic, critical, creative, brilliant humans in whichever way we want to define that.
Um, is, is what's needed and that there's an opportunity. And I'm curious if you see it as an opportunity, Angeline, in, in this particular sector, when we think of the education system as a whole, that's maybe not in Berlin, but in lots of international schools, there's some greater freedom, um, to affect these changes in the way that say a state school in the UK be restricted by kind of government policy and that actually there's a responsibility almost with international school leaders to start to do this.
It's kind of grassroots change because it's not going to happen by the exam boards, you know, I don't, I don't think they're about to kind of re imagine educate, uh, assessment because it's not in their interest to at the moment, which gives me an optimism. I wonder if you, I wonder if you around what's possible in the international sector, I wonder if your experience of CIS.
You share that, or not, maybe you're, maybe you're not optimistic.
[00:19:12] Angeline Aow: Yeah, actually, I'm really optimistic and there has been a lot of good work, actually. There are, um, there was a meeting in, hosted by the American International School of Budapest, um, in, in the last academic year, where a, a group of international schools came to discuss this, this very question and to look at alternative pathways.
And. And, um, and some international schools have created their own alternative pathways and some of them that have a lot of resources behind them are able to then have those pathways approved by, you know, different universities, et cetera, and, and recognition for, for their school leaving certificates.
And I think that's, um, with that accessibility and privilege and access to resources, yes, I think there is a responsibility there, um, to, to do that because it creates a model that, um, people can see, oh, this is possible. Um, and it also, because let's be honest, a lot of those very privileged elite spaces are also creating the future leaders that are going to go out into positions of responsibility in society.
That will impact, um, how things are shaped and, and so there, that is a huge responsibility as well. I think that, uh, that's where maybe we can strengthen because I think there's also a bit of an us and versus them mentality, you know, like state schools, uh, private schools, international schools, whereas we all want the same thing in the end, I think.
I think, you know, we want to transform education and we do need to work more together. As well, in order to make that happen,
[00:20:56] Naomi Ward: yeah, that, that collaboration feels at the heart of our future across so many of these domains. Well, there are four of them, but, um, we have a famous school in my community, community called B Dales, which has created its own curriculum.
Um, has access to universities in the UK and globally, so it can be done. And what if that was a collaboration, you know, in the whole community? It's feels like an opportunity lost. So is that something that. And I know you, I know you, you're in communities, you build communities, how do you see that as an engine or, um, for change versus, you know, this is my school, that's your school?
[00:21:51] Angeline Aow: Yeah, I think definitely we can't do any of it alone. And so building these partnerships, like the one you mentioned, um, between a school and a university or, or through a consortium of different schools or, or even if a school has, there are many networks that are locally or nationally. Um, aligned, right?
And so, when you're kind of united with the similar challenges you have because of your culture and context, then we can be stronger together in how we can solve those, those issues that are arising. And I think that that's really important. And so, I, I do that myself with, um, you mentioned, um, yes, I have been facilitating the International Schools Anti Discrimination Task Force.
On, on what started as a curriculum group, um, quickly became a humanizing pedagogy group because we realized that we needed a conversation, not another conversation about curriculum that kind of just looks at teaching, assessment, and learning. Um, and, but really think about what are the. pedagogical practices that is missing and needed in order to, to make sure that we are valuing and being identity conscious and identity centered.
And also then, um, being culturally responsive and in ways that we can sustain the multiplicity of cultures that exist in our communities. Um, and so that's been our work and conversations and it's going to be a, um, open access resource that will come out in the next month, which where we have created sort of seven, um, guiding principles for educators and also a supporting tool that kind of looks at what a learning progression looks like for a teacher.
And so help them put it into practice. And also we have another seven institution wide, um, principles that. will help, uh, you know, you establish the systems in place that will help, um, make the learning and teaching possible as well. And so, and that's going to come with another tool that will help, uh, look at how those principles can be put into practice with some learning stories, guiding questions, um, some typical actions that might happen so that people can pick that up and then contextualize it in their own spaces.
And so that has been a network of educators I've been working with who are sitting in Panama, all the way to China, um, and, uh, all the way from, you know, Senegal, you know, the States, everywhere. And, and we've all been working online, um, to make this happen and without that collaboration. It would not have been possible.
And without the different perspectives, uh, we would have also kind of, I guess, circled in the same conversations limited to our own perspectives. Um, but, uh, but this whole kind of professional inquiry that we went on to create a research informed document like you have with your future focused, um, leadership publication.
Um, so that, um, it can help inform schools, um, to move them into, into what we hope will be a more equitable future.
[00:25:09] Naomi Ward: And, and that just sounds so exciting and, and, and life giving to have those conversations. I can't wait to, to, to find out more and just the title of it, you know, humanizing pedagogy. I mean, there, there's some kind of admission that it's dehumanizing.
And, and has been and can be and is. So I guess that takes us back to the connection between what you're doing and the future that we hope to create. Yeah. What are your, what are your hopes for this?
[00:25:45] Angeline Aow: I think essentially what our hopes are and my hope too, is the humanizing piece will include multiple ways of knowing, doing, and being, and understanding the world that has not been dominant in conversations.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. to date. So, because of the colonial, um, our colonial, like, you know, histories, and that how schools have evolved, um, through colonization, we need to have a decolonial lens onto that. And also a real kind of indigenizing lens to think about what, which knowledges have not been present in our curricula, but actually are equally as valuable.
And, and could bring us much further in our thinking if we actually place value in that and truly value diversity. And so, so this humanizing pedagogy is also, you know, so I guess some related concepts to that is indigenizing pedagogy, um, decolonializing pedagogy. And if we want to move to a better society and society now, um, is, is not, um, completely, you know, uh, anti racist.
And so we need to also an anti racist pedagogy. We need a feminist pedagogy in order to, um, mitigate the patriarchal world in which we live in, right? So, so a lot of these, um, stances that we need and anti ableist, uh, uh, uh, uh, anti ableist Pedagogy as well. And so to kind of all encompass those many different lenses that we're hoping schools will adopt is, is this idea that we need to humanize it, um, by seeing every individual and their diversity of backgrounds.
[00:27:32] Matt Hall: And there's real opportunity there, isn't there for teachers? It's interesting. We've been talking about the technological domain and one of the concerns about artificial intelligence is this, this, the fact that it's this, uh, technology that is no longer tool, but is agent. It is agent in decision making and content creation.
And it has its own thinking mechanisms in the way that previous tools we've used have not. And the fear I carry is that the inverse could be said to be true of teachers, if we carry on as slaves to, um, assessment criteria and rubric, then it's teachers move from agent to tools, teacher just becomes the tool to implement the curriculum and the assessment.
Um, But it sounds like the, to me, the way you're describing this, the work that you're doing, and I know it's multiplied across lots of other collaborations and lots of other groups is it's putting teacher right back as agent, um, and choosing the lens and the critical approach that he, she, they, uh, they adopt and being really intentional about that rather than, well, this is what I'm supposed to teach, so I'm just going to teach it.
[00:28:37] Angeline Aow: Yeah, we, we, we want to have. Critical thinking in our students. And so I'm hoping teachers also will have that criticality into their decision making when they design their curricula. Um, and, uh, yeah, we are either, I think, upholding the structure, um, by doing what you've just described, or we should be constantly negotiating something for something better.
[00:29:01] Matt Hall: So as we come towards the end, Angeline, we're always short for time and feel like we could go on forever. I'm just curious about. In the paper we talk about, um, what's possible, what's preferable and what's probable. Uh, maybe it's a spectrum of, of what might unfold. I think I've got a good feeling of what's preferable from your perspective.
I, I'm, I'm wondering what you see as probable in this area. I
[00:29:24] Angeline Aow: think what could be probable is Maybe we can redesign professional learning for teachers. And I think also, you know, I'm a big fan of organizations like yours, like MSB and coaching. So, I think what's also probable for me is, uh, there's a big probability that we can, through having identity conscious teachers, And identity conscious educators and leaders really dig into Valuing themselves and what they bring, and then by doing that, they may also then feel empowered to question how the education system may not have served them, or have served them, and why.
And to do more of the things that serve learners, and to disrupt, and really, um, kind of, you Reimagined and, uh, stopped doing the things that haven't served, served, um, learners. And so I think that, uh, if we build a real sense of self worth with educators, um, through things like coaching and through things like professional learning and development in, in say a humanizing pedagogical approach, then we can, yeah, I hope that we can then achieve what would be preferable.
[00:30:58] Matt Hall: Thanks so much. I think we've finished. That's a great last sentence. Thanks, Angeline.
[00:31:03] Angeline Aow: Thank you. Thanks very much for having me.
[00:31:10] Matt Hall: We always run out of time. It always feels like there's so much more to unpick. I love the way that series three seems to be writing series four for us because there's so much to go back to in these conversations, don't you think?
[00:31:21] Naomi Ward: I think so. And, you know, the structure of the series, as we hope listeners are realizing is that we have this provocation from someone like Angeline, and then we really get to unpack it with some, some educators, and there's so much to unpack here and, you know, You know, we've been teachers, we've been educators.
I wonder what's landing with you, Matt, as, as, as what you, what you really heard during that episode.
[00:31:46] Matt Hall: Yeah. The, the bit that's staying with me at the moment is just that piece around, um, the curriculum as the potential to be humanizing and. As you said, maybe dehumanizing, um, and that kind of moral authority and opportunity that a curriculum has, which, um, you know, inevitably on the day to day, period by period delivery of curriculum content, we don't.
Cause we can't always bring a criticality to, um, and one of the themes of the paper, I think is this slow urgency that is this insistence that we step back and look at what we're doing and really think about it if we're going to create the sort of future in education that we want. Um, and it's such an obvious thing, isn't it?
But of course that starts with what we're teaching, um, and how we're teaching it. And if it's not that, then, then it's not really anything else. It's such an obvious thing to say, I know, but that's what I'm, I'm really left with, as well as a sense of hope that, that, that, that there are collaborations happening out there that are doing this work.
And Angeline's clearly very involved in one of them.
[00:32:55] Naomi Ward: Very much so. Um, she's got kind of this quiet, can do, Power, and it's contagious, I think. So the invocation, the invitation to all of us, myself included, is like, what can we do to be more critically conscious of, um, the spheres that we're in where people are accessing education and what are the collaborations we want to step into to give us that, that energy.
So, um, Yeah, watch this space .
[00:33:33] Matt Hall: Yeah. Like interesting to see what the round table make of this. Yes. This particular domain.
[00:33:38] Naomi Ward: Very much so. I'm sure we'll hear more, more people doing incredible things. Yeah.
[00:33:43] Matt Hall: You can download a free copy of our Paper Futures Focus Leadership for International Schools by signing up on our website, making stuff better.com.
And don't forget to like and follow principles so you don't miss an episode.
[00:33:58] Naomi Ward: You've been listening to Principled from MSB. The podcast was produced by Emily Crosby Media with music by Lucy Farrell, released on Hudson Records.
[00:00:00] Matt Hall: Hello and welcome back to Principled from MSB.
[00:00:07] Naomi Ward: This season offers international school leaders a provocation to think differently about the future of education and their role in the creation of this future. It's an opportunity to continue thinking seriously and deeply about the legacy that school leaders leave behind through concerted action in the present.
To frame this provocation, we will be bringing together the latest research and thinking about futures focused leadership, alongside insights from interviews with experts from across the international school sector and beyond.
[00:00:39] Matt Hall: Each episode, we will explore a different domain, and in the following episode, we will put the thinking through its paces with a panel of school leaders, some highly experienced, some new in role, and some emerging.
We're so pleased to have you join us. So we're back and uh, looking forward this week to diving into the curriculum assessment pedagogy realm. This one always gets, gets people's juices, juices flowing, doesn't it?
[00:01:08] Naomi Ward: Yes. I think there's a kind of stuckness that we can get locked into around this, but we know Angeline's work, Angeline Au, who's our, who's our guest today.
And, um, I think she has a gift for holding our hand in order to evolve. New cultures, new ways of doing things. So I'm excited to see what she has to say about, about the future of pedagogy curriculum assessment. It's a big topic.
[00:01:37] Matt Hall: Absolutely. And for those that don't know Angelina or aren't familiar with her work, she is, um, an educator and teacher, uh, still working part time at Berlin international school.
Um, but also very involved with the council of international schools, um, as a leading figure in their inclusion and diversity equity initiatives, including looking at humanizing curriculums, which I'm sure she's going to tell us more about. So, uh, yeah, let's go have a chat.
It's lovely to be here again in conversation this time with a, with a friend and someone who knows MSB well, Angeline Au, um, and Angeline, we're reflecting on the paper, the papers, the kind of spine of this series, as everyone knows, and we've come to the habit of asking our guests the following questions.
So brace yourself, um, in light of the paper and in light of the work that you're doing in education. And. Where do you see the world is now, from your perspective?
[00:02:43] Angeline Aow: The world right now is, uh, it's a really tense place to be in. I think, um, yeah, it's, um, on fire in many places, and there's a lot of tensions around the world globally, and, And, you know, everyone's been coming out of COVID times as well, where many people have been dysregulated in different ways.
You see that in our students, you see that in our responses to students, um, and our collaborative capabilities as well. And also in response to the complexities of challenges in the world that, uh, seem to be amplified in certain places, um, and. As international schools, I think, well, for me personally, I feel a responsibility to address that and, and, uh, feel a, an urge to shape international education even further and more forward in order to meet the challenges that are arising.
[00:03:48] Matt Hall: Tell me a little bit more about that, that responsibility and how it shows up for you.
[00:03:52] Angeline Aow: One of my part time roles is with the council of international schools and As international schools, and in response to a lot of research that came out with say the UNESCO and so on, um, you know, many people have in their missions in schools, things like global citizenship, you know, we're, we're going to foster global citizenship and we want to have students, um, come out as better citizens who can make, take local actions and have global impacts.
And, sort of, it's kind of fallen a bit flat, I would say. I mean, we, you know, we put a lot of things in our missions, and, um, when we strategize to try and achieve that in our learning and teaching, what actions have arisen out of that, um, that has stemmed from that, and, and so I think we kind of need to, um, double down a little bit.
And so, at CIS, we did some research around global citizenship. And renewed our mission and vision to say that, uh, we need more than just this goal. Um, and, and we sort of upped it into thinking about socially responsible leadership and leadership in terms of not just as a position or a title, but as developing everyone's capabilities and leaders being people who can.
Make influence wherever they are and with whatever power and positionality they have in their evolving identities. And so for me, it's um, thinking about, you know, just by kind of existing in the world, you know, we, we, we don't exist in isolation. And so when my, in my interactions, day to day interactions with people, I'm thinking what kind of impact do I have?
And also thinking about, of course, then in my spheres of influence, uh, In a school where I'm still based at Berlin International School and, and the teachers I work with, et cetera. And so, I think for me, that's part of the responsibility. Everyone has different ones, wherever they are. Um, we often hear teachers say things like, Oh, I'm just a teacher, but actually that's a big responsibility.
And they, and teachers are, are all the metadata research that comes out from HATI and so on. We'll say that they're the number one impactful thing, um, on learning, right? So yeah, I think that, um, if everyone sort of recognizes and maybe reassesses what our responsibility is, and also, Um, rethinks our educational contract, let's say, um, you know, what we are promising and what we owe our learners, then I think, you know, that's really important to rethink and go back to what is our key purpose here?
[00:06:40] Naomi Ward: All of those things. you know, around purpose and responsibility and even philosophy feel like the reasons why we become teachers. So I'm curious from what you're seeing, what is getting in the way of building on that, um, as, as we get more mature into our careers. And I know, That's not true of everyone, of course, but is there something here that's getting in the way?
[00:07:05] Angeline Aow: That's a good question. I think that sometimes we get in our own way, if that's fair enough to say. Um, you know, I love the, the futurist focus kind of thinking in terms of, you know, how can we sort of remove some of those barriers that might be in the way by looking, thinking about a future that we want to aspire towards.
And if we don't have that creative imagination to really think boldly and differently about where we could be compared to where we are now, then we've already denied ourselves that choice. And so I think sometimes our own thinking gets in the way, and that's what I mean by ourselves. Right? So, um, we, we're so busy upholding the cultural norms and structures that exist now, Because that takes a lot of energy and, and that takes a lot of, um, commitment, but maybe what we're upholding hasn't worked for everyone.
And certainly people and students are telling us that that's the case. And also, we know that the systems that have been designed to date in education have not been equitable and served everybody, hence, you know, all that energy we spend upholding what is currently the thing, um, is, is also getting in the way, right, of us re imagining and doing something very different.
[00:08:32] Matt Hall: Just stay on this point slightly, because I think, you know, some of our listeners might say, well, well, how do you mean, like, what do you mean the systems, Up is upholding existing structures. You know, we're really egalitarian when we come to our teaching. We're really clear about our policies Um, can you point us to some examples of where that that inherent kind of inequality lives in the system at the moment?
[00:08:54] Angeline Aow: Sure um Yeah, I'm just going to pick on something that I think is probably the bane of every, every school design's existence is, is timetabling, right? So for example, um, when you timetabling things, um, at our school, for example, we are a state sponsored international school and so we have to meet some state regulations, which tell us things like you have to have X amount of minutes of teaching English or math or PE and music and so on.
And so that gets in the way. Of having a interdisciplinary or transdisciplinary program that reflects the realities of the world today. And so, you know, structurally too, what's valued as we go from primary or early education into secondary is becoming more specialist in a certain subject. I think that also gets in the way because that's not how the world works.
All right, and so I think that, um, before, I think what used to be really valued were, you know, sophists or generalists and, um, and then all of a sudden, no, no, it's been specialists and when you go to university, you specialize even, even more, right, whereas actually the skills we need are people who can make those connections.
And people who can weave those narratives and, and rethink the future and be able to bring, you know, different specialists together to solve the complexities of the world. And so I think sometimes like, so that thinking, going back to your question about what gets in the way in schools is our structure.
Is reflecting that saying that this is valued in, in spaces, whereas I think it, it shouldn't be that it should be, um, something completely redesigned so that there is, um, more, um, flexibility in timetabling. Um, more disrupting, more space for people to have, you know, longer periods of inquiry and, and, uh, discovery and play rather than having to meet minutes.
Absolutely.
[00:10:59] Naomi Ward: Um, and I'm wondering where this is, you know, cause the future is now and I've no doubt that that's happening in certain spaces. Perhaps in the margins, and I guess what we've not spoken about yet is assessment and how can we grow beyond the metrics that we measure our children's learning by, because that is often the tail that wags the dog.
So your vision for assessment and how that can be our friend in this process of futures design.
[00:11:41] Angeline Aow: I think assessment certainly has. It's driven a lot of the design of our school structures, um. And what's valued in school spaces. And I think that, um, to, to kind of counteract that, we need to also go back to thinking about what we value in terms of professions.
And also what we value in terms of people, students contributions to the world, because we are so focused on even certain professions being more valued. Hence, you have to go to university to enter those professions. Whereas, for example, just last night on the street here in my apartment space, um, pipe burst on the street.
And so, you know, some of the, the, the, um, cellars here were under flooding and it's so hard to get a plumber. And meanwhile, that's, you know, not as valued as a profession. As some other professions that are highly esteemed, that people think they need to go to an Ivy League university to go into and to get, um, to do.
Meanwhile, I'm sure, I'm sure as probably as a teacher too, the plumbers probably earn more than we do. I know in Australia, this is true, right? And, and it's a really valuable and valued thing that we need as well. And so, until we shift our thinking about what does it mean to contribute positively to society, and what does it mean for all of our learners to come out and finding something that brings them joy and how they want to contribute to the world and, and be a part of all of the different things that we need to, as a society as well, to help each other in a community.
Then that assessment conversation is never going to shift because the assessments, um, measuring this one thing that people think are valuable in order to get into a university. Meanwhile, some universities are also saying, we don't want that either. We want to bring in people with a, so for example, there's even a global citizenship diploma or there is like, you know, I'm more than just a number of conversations in schools and, and having, you know, portfolios rather than assessments.
Um, for university entrances. So the, uh, conversation there is a little bit, um, chicken and egg also, because, uh, and everyone's chasing, I guess, social capital, financial capital, stability, and all of these things that we think this one pathway is going to get us there. So until we think of, are we measuring what we value?
Um, do we value what we're measuring? Are we working so hard for the data? Or should we have data that works hard for us? So yeah, lots of big questions.
[00:14:38] Naomi Ward: Yeah. And, and I'm just reflecting on how this feels like quite a circular conversation and, and you know, having worked in education for gosh, how old am I really old, 20, 25 years, like we were talking about this a quarter of a century ago.
And I know you're doing some really creative work around curriculum and, um, a part of an anti discriminatory task force in curriculum. And, and so you're an innovator in education. So what's, what's unlocking your thinking towards possibility rather than safety? Of how it's always been. I
[00:15:21] Angeline Aow: think one of the big things that I've been thinking about lately is just shifting my thinking away from more is better, bigger is better.
And then, and because that's also what's driving a lot of this, oh, we have to have a bigger Bigger income or, but that's not necessarily always going to bring us happiness, right? And so, and so really kind of shifting and thinking, what is, what is my value? What do I value here? But I think we've been sold this really capitalist, um, way of thinking and measuring success that is always on this linear upward trajectory.
And our assessments are also in that view. Meanwhile, if we look at every single human being as individuals, and we're wanting, actually, individuals to grow from wherever they are, but we have this one linear measurement where we're putting everyone on. And we're saying this is the average or this is the mean and this is like what people should be doing by the certain grade level.
But guess what? There is no norm. You know, norm doesn't exist. So my child who is 15, he has an intellectual disability. For us, Success for him would be that he would, you know, be successfully toilet trained. And that, you know, is for a 15 year old is something that's not on any chart that exists. Right. And so how do we measure success?
Um, has been so averaged out that it's really lost some meaning and that doesn't value every single human being. Um, That from who they are, what their strengths are, where they can grow, and um, and how we can actually redesign schools so that a child like mine could attend a school where I work rather than having to go to a special school that's, you know, exclusive by design and set up in a system because some systems don't serve him.
And so, yeah, sort of, I guess I don't know if I've answered your question fully, but, uh, but, uh, success doesn't always have one vision and one end. We need to see success in a very individual way that honors each person's and their dignity.
[00:17:52] Matt Hall: Yeah, that really resonates with, um, a lot of the people that were interviewed in the creation of our paper, kind of recognize that the opportunities that exist, particularly in international schools to develop kind of in house curricula, um, that, that lead us towards these kind of happy, agentic, critical, creative, brilliant humans in whichever way we want to define that.
Um, is, is what's needed and that there's an opportunity. And I'm curious if you see it as an opportunity, Angeline, in, in this particular sector, when we think of the education system as a whole, that's maybe not in Berlin, but in lots of international schools, there's some greater freedom, um, to affect these changes in the way that say a state school in the UK be restricted by kind of government policy and that actually there's a responsibility almost with international school leaders to start to do this.
It's kind of grassroots change because it's not going to happen by the exam boards, you know, I don't, I don't think they're about to kind of re imagine educate, uh, assessment because it's not in their interest to at the moment, which gives me an optimism. I wonder if you, I wonder if you around what's possible in the international sector, I wonder if your experience of CIS.
You share that, or not, maybe you're, maybe you're not optimistic.
[00:19:12] Angeline Aow: Yeah, actually, I'm really optimistic and there has been a lot of good work, actually. There are, um, there was a meeting in, hosted by the American International School of Budapest, um, in, in the last academic year, where a, a group of international schools came to discuss this, this very question and to look at alternative pathways.
And. And, um, and some international schools have created their own alternative pathways and some of them that have a lot of resources behind them are able to then have those pathways approved by, you know, different universities, et cetera, and, and recognition for, for their school leaving certificates.
And I think that's, um, with that accessibility and privilege and access to resources, yes, I think there is a responsibility there, um, to, to do that because it creates a model that, um, people can see, oh, this is possible. Um, and it also, because let's be honest, a lot of those very privileged elite spaces are also creating the future leaders that are going to go out into positions of responsibility in society.
That will impact, um, how things are shaped and, and so there, that is a huge responsibility as well. I think that, uh, that's where maybe we can strengthen because I think there's also a bit of an us and versus them mentality, you know, like state schools, uh, private schools, international schools, whereas we all want the same thing in the end, I think.
I think, you know, we want to transform education and we do need to work more together. As well, in order to make that happen,
[00:20:56] Naomi Ward: yeah, that, that collaboration feels at the heart of our future across so many of these domains. Well, there are four of them, but, um, we have a famous school in my community, community called B Dales, which has created its own curriculum.
Um, has access to universities in the UK and globally, so it can be done. And what if that was a collaboration, you know, in the whole community? It's feels like an opportunity lost. So is that something that. And I know you, I know you, you're in communities, you build communities, how do you see that as an engine or, um, for change versus, you know, this is my school, that's your school?
[00:21:51] Angeline Aow: Yeah, I think definitely we can't do any of it alone. And so building these partnerships, like the one you mentioned, um, between a school and a university or, or through a consortium of different schools or, or even if a school has, there are many networks that are locally or nationally. Um, aligned, right?
And so, when you're kind of united with the similar challenges you have because of your culture and context, then we can be stronger together in how we can solve those, those issues that are arising. And I think that that's really important. And so, I, I do that myself with, um, you mentioned, um, yes, I have been facilitating the International Schools Anti Discrimination Task Force.
On, on what started as a curriculum group, um, quickly became a humanizing pedagogy group because we realized that we needed a conversation, not another conversation about curriculum that kind of just looks at teaching, assessment, and learning. Um, and, but really think about what are the. pedagogical practices that is missing and needed in order to, to make sure that we are valuing and being identity conscious and identity centered.
And also then, um, being culturally responsive and in ways that we can sustain the multiplicity of cultures that exist in our communities. Um, and so that's been our work and conversations and it's going to be a, um, open access resource that will come out in the next month, which where we have created sort of seven, um, guiding principles for educators and also a supporting tool that kind of looks at what a learning progression looks like for a teacher.
And so help them put it into practice. And also we have another seven institution wide, um, principles that. will help, uh, you know, you establish the systems in place that will help, um, make the learning and teaching possible as well. And so, and that's going to come with another tool that will help, uh, look at how those principles can be put into practice with some learning stories, guiding questions, um, some typical actions that might happen so that people can pick that up and then contextualize it in their own spaces.
And so that has been a network of educators I've been working with who are sitting in Panama, all the way to China, um, and, uh, all the way from, you know, Senegal, you know, the States, everywhere. And, and we've all been working online, um, to make this happen and without that collaboration. It would not have been possible.
And without the different perspectives, uh, we would have also kind of, I guess, circled in the same conversations limited to our own perspectives. Um, but, uh, but this whole kind of professional inquiry that we went on to create a research informed document like you have with your future focused, um, leadership publication.
Um, so that, um, it can help inform schools, um, to move them into, into what we hope will be a more equitable future.
[00:25:09] Naomi Ward: And, and that just sounds so exciting and, and, and life giving to have those conversations. I can't wait to, to, to find out more and just the title of it, you know, humanizing pedagogy. I mean, there, there's some kind of admission that it's dehumanizing.
And, and has been and can be and is. So I guess that takes us back to the connection between what you're doing and the future that we hope to create. Yeah. What are your, what are your hopes for this?
[00:25:45] Angeline Aow: I think essentially what our hopes are and my hope too, is the humanizing piece will include multiple ways of knowing, doing, and being, and understanding the world that has not been dominant in conversations.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. to date. So, because of the colonial, um, our colonial, like, you know, histories, and that how schools have evolved, um, through colonization, we need to have a decolonial lens onto that. And also a real kind of indigenizing lens to think about what, which knowledges have not been present in our curricula, but actually are equally as valuable.
And, and could bring us much further in our thinking if we actually place value in that and truly value diversity. And so, so this humanizing pedagogy is also, you know, so I guess some related concepts to that is indigenizing pedagogy, um, decolonializing pedagogy. And if we want to move to a better society and society now, um, is, is not, um, completely, you know, uh, anti racist.
And so we need to also an anti racist pedagogy. We need a feminist pedagogy in order to, um, mitigate the patriarchal world in which we live in, right? So, so a lot of these, um, stances that we need and anti ableist, uh, uh, uh, uh, anti ableist Pedagogy as well. And so to kind of all encompass those many different lenses that we're hoping schools will adopt is, is this idea that we need to humanize it, um, by seeing every individual and their diversity of backgrounds.
[00:27:32] Matt Hall: And there's real opportunity there, isn't there for teachers? It's interesting. We've been talking about the technological domain and one of the concerns about artificial intelligence is this, this, the fact that it's this, uh, technology that is no longer tool, but is agent. It is agent in decision making and content creation.
And it has its own thinking mechanisms in the way that previous tools we've used have not. And the fear I carry is that the inverse could be said to be true of teachers, if we carry on as slaves to, um, assessment criteria and rubric, then it's teachers move from agent to tools, teacher just becomes the tool to implement the curriculum and the assessment.
Um, But it sounds like the, to me, the way you're describing this, the work that you're doing, and I know it's multiplied across lots of other collaborations and lots of other groups is it's putting teacher right back as agent, um, and choosing the lens and the critical approach that he, she, they, uh, they adopt and being really intentional about that rather than, well, this is what I'm supposed to teach, so I'm just going to teach it.
[00:28:37] Angeline Aow: Yeah, we, we, we want to have. Critical thinking in our students. And so I'm hoping teachers also will have that criticality into their decision making when they design their curricula. Um, and, uh, yeah, we are either, I think, upholding the structure, um, by doing what you've just described, or we should be constantly negotiating something for something better.
[00:29:01] Matt Hall: So as we come towards the end, Angeline, we're always short for time and feel like we could go on forever. I'm just curious about. In the paper we talk about, um, what's possible, what's preferable and what's probable. Uh, maybe it's a spectrum of, of what might unfold. I think I've got a good feeling of what's preferable from your perspective.
I, I'm, I'm wondering what you see as probable in this area. I
[00:29:24] Angeline Aow: think what could be probable is Maybe we can redesign professional learning for teachers. And I think also, you know, I'm a big fan of organizations like yours, like MSB and coaching. So, I think what's also probable for me is, uh, there's a big probability that we can, through having identity conscious teachers, And identity conscious educators and leaders really dig into Valuing themselves and what they bring, and then by doing that, they may also then feel empowered to question how the education system may not have served them, or have served them, and why.
And to do more of the things that serve learners, and to disrupt, and really, um, kind of, you Reimagined and, uh, stopped doing the things that haven't served, served, um, learners. And so I think that, uh, if we build a real sense of self worth with educators, um, through things like coaching and through things like professional learning and development in, in say a humanizing pedagogical approach, then we can, yeah, I hope that we can then achieve what would be preferable.
[00:30:58] Matt Hall: Thanks so much. I think we've finished. That's a great last sentence. Thanks, Angeline.
[00:31:03] Angeline Aow: Thank you. Thanks very much for having me.
[00:31:10] Matt Hall: We always run out of time. It always feels like there's so much more to unpick. I love the way that series three seems to be writing series four for us because there's so much to go back to in these conversations, don't you think?
[00:31:21] Naomi Ward: I think so. And, you know, the structure of the series, as we hope listeners are realizing is that we have this provocation from someone like Angeline, and then we really get to unpack it with some, some educators, and there's so much to unpack here and, you know, You know, we've been teachers, we've been educators.
I wonder what's landing with you, Matt, as, as, as what you, what you really heard during that episode.
[00:31:46] Matt Hall: Yeah. The, the bit that's staying with me at the moment is just that piece around, um, the curriculum as the potential to be humanizing and. As you said, maybe dehumanizing, um, and that kind of moral authority and opportunity that a curriculum has, which, um, you know, inevitably on the day to day, period by period delivery of curriculum content, we don't.
Cause we can't always bring a criticality to, um, and one of the themes of the paper, I think is this slow urgency that is this insistence that we step back and look at what we're doing and really think about it if we're going to create the sort of future in education that we want. Um, and it's such an obvious thing, isn't it?
But of course that starts with what we're teaching, um, and how we're teaching it. And if it's not that, then, then it's not really anything else. It's such an obvious thing to say, I know, but that's what I'm, I'm really left with, as well as a sense of hope that, that, that, that there are collaborations happening out there that are doing this work.
And Angeline's clearly very involved in one of them.
[00:32:55] Naomi Ward: Very much so. Um, she's got kind of this quiet, can do, Power, and it's contagious, I think. So the invocation, the invitation to all of us, myself included, is like, what can we do to be more critically conscious of, um, the spheres that we're in where people are accessing education and what are the collaborations we want to step into to give us that, that energy.
So, um, Yeah, watch this space .
[00:33:33] Matt Hall: Yeah. Like interesting to see what the round table make of this. Yes. This particular domain.
[00:33:38] Naomi Ward: Very much so. I'm sure we'll hear more, more people doing incredible things. Yeah.
[00:33:43] Matt Hall: You can download a free copy of our Paper Futures Focus Leadership for International Schools by signing up on our website, making stuff better.com.
And don't forget to like and follow principles so you don't miss an episode.
[00:33:58] Naomi Ward: You've been listening to Principled from MSB. The podcast was produced by Emily Crosby Media with music by Lucy Farrell, released on Hudson Records.
