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The Inside Learning Podcast is brought
to you by the Learnovate Center.
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Learnovate research explores the power
of learning to unlock human potential.
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Find out more about learnovate research
on the science of learning and the
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future of work@learnovatecenter.org.
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Today's guest delivers a practical
strategy guide for attracting,
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retaining, and empowering the talent
you need to drive your business forward.
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he describes the contemporary reality
of work, how it is evolving, and
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how it represents a new opportunity
for leaders to create organizations
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capable of innovation and growth.
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He explains how to straddle the
challenge of building a company that
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is both a hyper efficient machine
and a healthy living organism.
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It's a pleasure to welcome the author
of Future Work World, how Leaders
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Can Create Destinations for Talent
that Excite, entice, and engage.
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Chief Strategy Officer at CPL and
head of the Future of Work Institute.
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Barry Winkles, welcome to the show.
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very much Aidan.And full transparency,
Barry and I used to work together.
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. So it's great to see you writing Barry
and getting this out to the world because
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you were constantly getting towards this.
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It was only a matter of time.
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We did a white paper six years ago in
the Future Work Institute because really
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recognized there was no definition
of what the future of work was, or
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a user guide for the future of work.
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So we tried to develop a relatively
simple white paper around what
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it is, what's it about, what it
contains, et cetera, et cetera.
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And then I think we started talking
a couple of years ago and really
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through the work that we've done
in the Future Work Institute.
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The white papers that we'd written and
then some of the conversations we had.
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And I also felt, to be honest with
you, it was a good time to do a book
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about work when you consider all the
changes that are happening around
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us through technology and, you know,
other societal impacts as well.
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So, yeah.
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So it's, it's finally
good to have it out there.
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The one thing I know is you're not a
boring writer and you didn't create a
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boring book because even though people
might hear it's a playbook for the
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world of work or the future of work.
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Your personality's very much in it, and
I know music has a huge influence on
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your writing and your thinking as well.
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Yeah.
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You told me you learned the guitar
during COVID, a new thing added but maybe
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we'll talk about the musical influence
because it's throughout the book.
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Yeah, no, obviously I think
there's a couple of things you,
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you probably appreciate this.
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I think what ends up happening when you do
your first draft of a book, you realize,
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is there enough of me in the book?
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And to be honest with you,
I felt, no, not really.
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So I ended up going back to,
well, what do I really love?
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Right?
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I love music.
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I love things like science fiction,
you know, I love writing, I love
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all these various types of things.
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So the book is a little bit of a
smorgasbord of all of those ideas.
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So right down to the point that.
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At the back of the book, I call out
a number of albums that you should
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listen to whilst it's reading the book.
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So that's how far I went on, on
that, on that side, I think the, the
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biggest influence on me, and, and
you know this well, is I have a huge
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appreciation for immersive storytelling.
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So in the book, it's like a journey.
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So it's been broken up into four parts.
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Each part is unique, so you
can read each part on its own.
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You know, but I necessarily
reading the next part, I'm always
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mindful of keeping people engaged.
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And it goes from mindset.
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So how do we need to think about the
future of work to the meta waves, which
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is, you know, the big underlying trends.
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But then I go into a lot of the work that
we developed as part of the future work.
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And should I go into this
idea of a mixed desk?
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So.
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What are the 16 areas that we can innovate
around how we design our worlds of work?
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And then finally into this idea of move,
how, how can we actually utilize immersive
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storytelling to emotionally move people?
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And throughout the book again, trying to
sprinkle that little bit of me in there.
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There are nine jumps into the near
future of work that are fictional stories
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that highlight different aspects of
the future work based on our research.
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So there's a bit of everything in there.
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I even in my introduction, I, I told I
com compare my first book to first album,
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you know, and everything in between.
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So yeah, it's definitely it's
a pretty accessible book.
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And I did an interview yesterday
where the guy who read it said, why
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it's a book for business leaders.
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It's actually a book for everyone, which
I really love that that feedback 'cause
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you, you, as you know, in trying to
write something that, you know, engages
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people but also is relatively universal.
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It is quite a difficult thing to
do, particularly when you actually
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sit down to do the bloody thing.
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So that's that, that was my learning.
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You know, my, my other learning was next
time do a coffee table book, you know,
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50 pictures on the 50 pages, so, yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That's exactly it.
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I had this vision of, you know, a
Tom Ford desk, you know, fashion book
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with big pictures, you know, and you
know those little semi paragraphs, you
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know, of content, you know, per page.
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So that, that, if anybody's asked
me what my next book is, it's that.
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Absolutely.
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If people
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Yeah.
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tables anymore,
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Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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well, let, let's, one other thing
I found interesting was, and I was
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delighted to see this actually, was
you did start with mindset because.
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No matter what you're talking about,
like I, I heard this great saying
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recently that you, you, you know, the
whole idea is that you can't force a,
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a horse to water, but actually worse
than that, you can't waterboard a horse.
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yeah.
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Very true.
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a leadership team needs to have the right
mindset before they even look at what the
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future of work is for their organization.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I know this is a big, you know, kind
of focus area of yours and, you know, over
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the, over the last few years and what,
what I was finding is in the projects
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that we're doing, we, we were doing
as part of the Future Work institute.
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It was almost that we were going
into a project without giving
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the leaders the dictionary.
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So they didn't know the language
or the reason we were doing things.
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And that's why, and also I've read your
book as well, and I read, I had read a
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couple of books that had focused in on.
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You know, I suppose,
what would you call it?
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Level setting your mind, right?
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And then there was three very
unique aspects of the mindset
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that I wanted to bring to bear.
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So one is called the Destination Designer.
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One is called the Societal
Whisperer, and then the other
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one is the systems Architect.
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And they came out of working with various,
HR teams, particularly leadership teams,
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are teams involved in the world of talent.
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Recognizing that those three areas are,
were kind of the level setting area before
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you could go on the journey ultimately.
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So I was very mindful of that.
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Really halfway through writing the
book, when I started writing the book,
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I didn't have a mindset section and then
actually recognized myself, well, if
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somebody was coming to this book called.
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Would they get the maximum value
out of this supposed user manual?
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And that's when I said, oh, hold a second.
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This is what we found from
the companies we work with.
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So to me it was a really
important breakthrough for
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myself in terms of the book.
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And then also what I've found
Aidan is that I've gotten very good
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feedback from people that I've done
projects and workshops with since
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the book around the power of those
three elements to the mindset,?
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So I was very, very glad I had
spent time on that, and as you
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know it, and we worked together.
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A lot of it is mindset, and even in the
book I say, look, we can talk about skills
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all we like, but the most important skill
set for the future work is a mindset.
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And I'm really, really
passionate about that.
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You know?
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One of the things that emerged from
me and even when we worked together,
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it's a decade ago now, almost.
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You, you would say stuff, say, because
you, you were, you're extremely well
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read and I wasn't quite as well read
then, and you'd say stuff and I had no
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idea what you're talking about and you
don't know that because I can feign
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that I know what you're talking about.
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But the reason I say
that is mindset for me.
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Also, also you level up so you,
you level up with your knowledge.
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So as you said,
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yeah.
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you need a different language in
order to level up as well, because
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language is how we carry, it's like
an operating system for the human.
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Yeah.
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Hundred percent.
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Yeah.
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piece comes across that you're
actually, you said there, that
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you're giving them a language,
but it really helps them level up.
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And also as a leadership team,
they're on the same page then.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's funny because like, you know, it's
interesting you're talking about that
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even when we work together, there's
a, there's a, there's an unconscious
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osmosis that goes on, you know, so , I
learned a lot, a bit from you from.
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You know, stuff that you went through,
let's say as a professional sports
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person and then you've gone through
your own journey into innovation.
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So like, , I always, I'm one of
those, I'm not saying I rob people
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stuff ever, but I love osmosis.
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You know what I mean?
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I love that idea of.
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Geez, Aden's after saying something there
that, you know, really I really thought
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about and I know we sometimes would speak
different languages, but we always have
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this passion around the power of thinking,
and the power of all of that kinda stuff.
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And I think that was, that's
really, really important to me.
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And the mindsets in a way,
they're almost like vessels.
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It's almost like, here's three vessels.
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As long as you adopt these principles, you
can kind of fill these with new methods
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and new tools and all that kind of stuff.
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I didn't wanna get too caught up
in toolkits, you know what I mean?
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But I wanted to make sure there was
enough there that was universal enough.
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And I, I've seen it, you know, you hear
a lot of people talking about, oh, HR
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aren't strategic enough, blah, blah, blah.
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I, I'd look at it slightly differently.
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I would say that HR
aren't holistic enough.
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You know, in the way that they may be look
at challenges or look at opportunities,
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you know, and, and never before has
there been an opportunity for, you know,
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HR leaders to really help craft this,
you know, you know, starting different,
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I'm gonna say a world of work, but also
similar at the same time, you know?
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Yeah.
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So I, I just love that idea of.
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You know, bringing new language to
bear into, and you know, this anyway,
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into sectors that maybe wouldn't be
used to these types of approaches,
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you know, and look, as we all know,
there's nothing new under the sun.
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So even the book itself, like
the book is very, very original.
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You know, there's elements
from everywhere in there.
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Like even even in the, the third part of
the book, which is this mixed desk idea.
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Like, I got that from my uncle of
mine had a music room, you know,
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and I used to have like mixed desks,
you know, and I used to run in as a
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kid and mess with all the settings.
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And, and that was really important
to me because, you know, yourself
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in ev I didn't want to have a book.
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It was like, the future of work
will be, you know, there's no, if
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somebody's looking for a really
strong theme, the main theme in the
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book really is we need to think more
strategically about the future of work.
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That's it.
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But in there, there is mindsets
and mixed desks to imagine
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and reimagine worlds of work.
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And sometimes you might have
to go backwards, sometimes
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you have to go forwards.
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And you know, for me it was really
important that it didn't become
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this standing on the mountain top.
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You know, preaching around this has
to be like this because, you know.
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I'm a realist.
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You know, I've, as I said, I head
up the Future Work Institute.
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We, we work on projects that are
important to businesses that if we
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make a mistake, you know, it's ROI
and all that kind of good stuff.
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So I just was really mindful of that,
Eden, that it was more of a, you
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know, a guide, a design guide, but it
wasn't necessarily making any massive
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statements about, this is definitively.
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Where things are going to go.
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00:10:52,979 --> 00:10:55,589
'cause you know yourself and
like it's leaders and people
228
00:10:55,649 --> 00:10:58,049
like ourselves and other people
that write the future of work.
229
00:10:58,049 --> 00:11:01,259
So we can't definitively say
it's going to a hundred percent
230
00:11:01,259 --> 00:11:02,309
be this or that or the other.
231
00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:03,959
So that, I was mindful
of that in the book.
232
00:11:03,959 --> 00:11:07,049
So that's hopefully what will be
reflective when people read the
233
00:11:07,049 --> 00:11:11,099
book is this idea of a journey,
the user guide that they can
234
00:11:11,099 --> 00:11:13,589
utilize in their own context.
235
00:11:13,589 --> 00:11:16,319
You know, that, that was really
important to me because you know
236
00:11:16,319 --> 00:11:18,549
what to say, you, you've seen those
books out there in the, you know.
237
00:11:18,974 --> 00:11:19,784
This is the team.
238
00:11:19,784 --> 00:11:21,674
This is what's going to be,
and they're great books.
239
00:11:21,674 --> 00:11:25,244
They, they challenge your mind, but
that's not what this book is, you know?
240
00:11:25,374 --> 00:11:27,724
The mixing desk really resonated with me.
241
00:11:27,784 --> 00:11:32,194
There was a lady we had on the show,
Frederika Fabritius, and she writes about
242
00:11:32,474 --> 00:11:32,924
Yes.
243
00:11:33,064 --> 00:11:36,424
and the future, the leading brain,
the workplace brain, stuff like this.
244
00:11:36,469 --> 00:11:36,759
yeah.
245
00:11:36,999 --> 00:11:42,639
But she has this term that she
co-opted, it's called neuro signature.
246
00:11:42,909 --> 00:11:43,929
So everybody has
247
00:11:43,959 --> 00:11:44,249
Yeah.
248
00:11:45,639 --> 00:11:47,589
setting, like you were
saying, like your uncle's
249
00:11:47,729 --> 00:11:47,999
Yeah.
250
00:11:48,129 --> 00:11:51,429
setting, a graphical equalizer,
the way I pictured it, like the old
251
00:11:51,649 --> 00:11:53,289
Hi-Fis for those who remember them.
252
00:11:53,654 --> 00:11:53,944
yeah,
253
00:11:54,189 --> 00:11:58,569
everybody has a setting that works for
them of serotonin and oxytocin, et cetera.
254
00:11:58,569 --> 00:11:58,929
So
255
00:11:59,214 --> 00:11:59,504
yeah.
256
00:11:59,919 --> 00:12:02,919
experience the world very
uniquely to themselves.
257
00:12:02,919 --> 00:12:06,159
So there, there's neurodiversity,
and the reason I, I share that is.
258
00:12:06,504 --> 00:12:10,944
You were saying there about the different
idea, like a systems architect and when
259
00:12:11,189 --> 00:12:11,549
Hmm.
260
00:12:11,634 --> 00:12:16,944
organization talks about hr, the
leadership team have a different idea of
261
00:12:16,944 --> 00:12:21,684
what HR does and therefore the setting
of the organization's very unique
262
00:12:21,959 --> 00:12:22,469
Exactly.
263
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,269
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly,
264
00:12:24,624 --> 00:12:26,094
' cause it's, it's not
265
00:12:26,099 --> 00:12:26,519
yeah,
266
00:12:26,574 --> 00:12:28,494
the ideal setting, it's going, you need to
267
00:12:28,649 --> 00:12:29,219
exactly.
268
00:12:29,461 --> 00:12:30,356
your are first first and then
269
00:12:30,384 --> 00:12:30,804
use the book.
270
00:12:31,199 --> 00:12:31,349
Yeah.
271
00:12:32,369 --> 00:12:33,149
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
272
00:12:33,449 --> 00:12:34,529
And you're, you're absolutely right.
273
00:12:34,534 --> 00:12:37,319
The, the thing for me was, look,
so the easiest way I can describe
274
00:12:37,319 --> 00:12:39,389
it is, here's 16 equalizers.
275
00:12:39,749 --> 00:12:43,364
We know that these are the important
ones from a. You know, workplace
276
00:12:43,364 --> 00:12:47,054
of the now and next, but play
around based on your contact.
277
00:12:47,054 --> 00:12:52,724
So that whole section around mixed desk
is literally a whole methodology of how
278
00:12:52,724 --> 00:12:54,704
to bring this into your organization.
279
00:12:54,704 --> 00:12:58,124
Because I was mind, you know, and you'll
appreciate this and you know, you can have
280
00:12:58,124 --> 00:13:01,844
a little bit too much right brain, you
know, and, and if you don't have a bit of
281
00:13:01,844 --> 00:13:03,764
the left brain, it can kind of go off in.
282
00:13:03,884 --> 00:13:05,744
I have a tendency to go
off into space sometimes.
283
00:13:05,744 --> 00:13:08,414
So he is mindful of you
know, making sure that.
284
00:13:08,634 --> 00:13:12,204
What I'd learned in my team and
the work projects that we've
285
00:13:12,204 --> 00:13:14,814
done was also reflected in there.
286
00:13:14,814 --> 00:13:18,294
So in a way it's, you know, you mentioned
in your diversity thing aid, and that
287
00:13:18,294 --> 00:13:24,324
was really important to me because I was
mindful of making sure that this resonated
288
00:13:24,324 --> 00:13:25,614
with left and right brand people.
289
00:13:25,614 --> 00:13:26,394
I want to keep it simple.
290
00:13:26,394 --> 00:13:28,824
I know it's more complicated and
that, but you know, people who are
291
00:13:28,824 --> 00:13:32,634
more creatively inclined will, will
resonate with the fictional stories.
292
00:13:32,994 --> 00:13:35,934
People who are more practically
inclined will resonate with the model.
293
00:13:36,624 --> 00:13:37,404
But the idea was that.
294
00:13:37,949 --> 00:13:43,019
You could utilize the book and between
those four sections, you almost have
295
00:13:43,019 --> 00:13:47,459
this user guide that you can apply
tomorrow, really, no matter what
296
00:13:47,459 --> 00:13:49,229
size your organization is, you know?
297
00:13:49,229 --> 00:13:51,989
And I always like to say that,
just to come back to the equalizer
298
00:13:51,989 --> 00:13:56,639
analogy, no matter how, what type
of an organization you are or how
299
00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:59,999
tight things are, you can actually at
least move one of those equalizers.
300
00:14:00,089 --> 00:14:00,599
You know what I mean?
301
00:14:00,929 --> 00:14:02,819
And that, that was really
important to me as well.
302
00:14:02,849 --> 00:14:05,789
'cause I've seen companies that are
really good at one particular, one area.
303
00:14:06,284 --> 00:14:07,124
That's enough.
304
00:14:07,184 --> 00:14:07,844
You know what I mean?
305
00:14:07,844 --> 00:14:09,014
In terms of what they're about.
306
00:14:09,014 --> 00:14:11,834
So yeah, I, I knew the mix
steps would resonate with you.
307
00:14:11,834 --> 00:14:15,014
You know, I know conversations
we've had over the years.
308
00:14:15,464 --> 00:14:15,884
So yeah.
309
00:14:15,889 --> 00:14:20,684
And, and funny eight, that was the thing
that we had trial back in the white paper
310
00:14:20,684 --> 00:14:24,494
that we since evolved through working
with the organizations, you know, and
311
00:14:24,494 --> 00:14:28,604
again, I was mindful it wasn't a big
academic framework, but there was enough
312
00:14:28,604 --> 00:14:31,739
rigor behind it that it's really, really
useful, you know, and useful was my.
313
00:14:32,684 --> 00:14:35,504
Core idea in my head, you
know, how can this be useful,
314
00:14:35,714 --> 00:14:37,094
really, you know, to people.
315
00:14:37,634 --> 00:14:40,004
And my next book might be a little
bit more esoteric, you know,
316
00:14:40,159 --> 00:14:41,184
Yeah, the pictures.
317
00:14:41,244 --> 00:14:42,384
The pictures can be whatever.
318
00:14:44,114 --> 00:14:44,414
yeah.
319
00:14:44,414 --> 00:14:44,954
Yeah, exactly.
320
00:14:44,954 --> 00:14:46,034
I want those big pictures.
321
00:14:46,194 --> 00:14:47,454
share the meta waves because
322
00:14:47,559 --> 00:14:47,849
Yeah,
323
00:14:47,904 --> 00:14:48,984
know, mindset was one thing.
324
00:14:49,349 --> 00:14:50,039
Meta waves.
325
00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:50,214
Meta waves
326
00:14:50,719 --> 00:14:51,009
yeah,
327
00:14:51,114 --> 00:14:54,324
were almost like lenses that you can
328
00:14:54,779 --> 00:14:55,069
yeah.
329
00:14:55,194 --> 00:14:58,584
idea of like, I can try on the lens
and see how the world looks through
330
00:14:58,644 --> 00:15:00,744
that meta wave and see does it
331
00:15:00,944 --> 00:15:01,334
Yeah.
332
00:15:01,704 --> 00:15:04,464
and my organizational setting,
my mixed desk setting.
333
00:15:05,304 --> 00:15:08,424
But some of them I loved, I, I mean,
I loved, and this is a chance for you
334
00:15:08,424 --> 00:15:13,794
to freestyle with your creativity,
like work type salad, stuff like that.
335
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:14,519
Oh yeah.
336
00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:15,419
Everybody loves that one.
337
00:15:17,459 --> 00:15:18,329
Yeah, I'll talk about that one.
338
00:15:18,329 --> 00:15:19,919
So I'll tell you where that one came from.
339
00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:23,099
As you know, Aiden, I'm a big fan
of, you know, Disney, particularly
340
00:15:23,114 --> 00:15:25,229
the, the Imagineering side of things.
341
00:15:25,229 --> 00:15:28,529
You know, the, the theme park design side
of things, which is actually, there's a
342
00:15:28,529 --> 00:15:32,789
lot of concepts of immersive storytelling
reflected in, in the book, but there's
343
00:15:32,789 --> 00:15:34,859
a very famous Imagineer called Ly Crump.
344
00:15:35,099 --> 00:15:39,179
He was one of Walt Disney's right hand
man, and he talked about the fact that in
345
00:15:39,179 --> 00:15:41,039
di Disneyland was like the perfect salad.
346
00:15:41,289 --> 00:15:43,149
You know, perfectly mixed, solid.
347
00:15:43,149 --> 00:15:44,469
Everything blended together.
348
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:48,244
And he said other, other amusement parks
are just like Gladys and tomato, you know?
349
00:15:48,544 --> 00:15:50,724
And it, and it really stuck with me.
350
00:15:51,584 --> 00:15:54,614
So what, when I talk about this idea
of work type solids, if you think about
351
00:15:54,614 --> 00:15:58,874
the modern workforce, it's actually made
up of all types of employees, right?
352
00:15:58,874 --> 00:16:03,074
Permanent employees, temporary
staff, contractors, consultants,
353
00:16:03,374 --> 00:16:04,874
pay by day or gig workers.
354
00:16:04,874 --> 00:16:08,594
But what I'm finding often in organization
I'm working with, it's more like the,
355
00:16:08,594 --> 00:16:12,854
the lettuce and tomato people aren't
using these types of employment types
356
00:16:12,974 --> 00:16:14,804
for real competitive advantage, right?
357
00:16:14,984 --> 00:16:18,944
So for example, asking questions
like, well, what if we had a
358
00:16:19,124 --> 00:16:20,864
pay by the hour R and d team?
359
00:16:21,299 --> 00:16:23,669
What could that bring to
us as an organization?
360
00:16:23,939 --> 00:16:29,399
What if we utilized a new temporary
working model to tap into a diverse
361
00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:33,239
group of society that wouldn't normally
work with an organization like ours?
362
00:16:33,449 --> 00:16:34,979
So that's what I meant
about the work types.
363
00:16:34,979 --> 00:16:38,099
How do we utilize all of these
different types of working and
364
00:16:38,099 --> 00:16:41,879
employment types, mix them into
something that's really connected.
365
00:16:42,314 --> 00:16:44,234
Convergent and meaningful.
366
00:16:44,864 --> 00:16:48,224
You know, and other people have written
about, you know, open talent and,
367
00:16:48,224 --> 00:16:50,804
you know, world without jobs and, you
know, obviously referenced some of
368
00:16:50,804 --> 00:16:55,634
those books with in my own book, but I
see it as one meta wave amongst nine.
369
00:16:56,174 --> 00:16:57,644
But that one is really interesting.
370
00:16:57,734 --> 00:17:01,664
So I think in the real opportunity
for modern organizations is to.
371
00:17:02,069 --> 00:17:05,999
Really stand back and think about
what employment type will work
372
00:17:05,999 --> 00:17:07,919
for us based on our contexts.
373
00:17:08,369 --> 00:17:11,939
And then what, how will that tap
into this globally diverse group
374
00:17:11,939 --> 00:17:15,179
of people that we can't necessarily
attract in different ways?
375
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,789
But if you think about yourself, Aiden,
I know we've had these conversations.
376
00:17:17,789 --> 00:17:18,269
Hope, hope.
377
00:17:18,269 --> 00:17:21,539
If you don't mind me saying this, you're
somebody a bit like me, you, you kind of
378
00:17:21,539 --> 00:17:25,139
like a freeform portfolio type of working.
379
00:17:25,229 --> 00:17:25,559
Right?
380
00:17:25,889 --> 00:17:29,909
And you know, so if organizations
want to attract and work with
381
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:31,679
people like you, then they're
gonna have to go, well actually.
382
00:17:32,009 --> 00:17:33,059
Aiden is our gig guy.
383
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:33,449
Right.
384
00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:37,409
But equally, if there's another person
who's a deep, you know, engineering
385
00:17:37,409 --> 00:17:42,299
technical expert who wants that security,
that company also has to think about
386
00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:44,969
that and work with that on that side and
getting those things to work together.
387
00:17:44,969 --> 00:17:45,899
There's real magic there.
388
00:17:45,899 --> 00:17:47,489
You know, if, if we
can really tap into it.
389
00:17:47,634 --> 00:17:48,924
I was thinking about the salads.
390
00:17:49,014 --> 00:17:52,944
Do you remember like Ireland in the
eighties if you, if you got a salad,
391
00:17:53,219 --> 00:17:53,759
Oh, yeah.
392
00:17:53,934 --> 00:17:55,104
that red onion.
393
00:17:58,319 --> 00:17:59,789
Well, I also, I also, yeah.
394
00:17:59,789 --> 00:18:01,259
I also remember a friend
of mine saying that to me.
395
00:18:01,259 --> 00:18:04,439
He said there was no such thing as a
crunchy, solid, you know, it was a damp,
396
00:18:05,249 --> 00:18:11,729
limp, you know, green leaf, you know, and,
and tomatoes that were, yeah, tomatoes
397
00:18:11,729 --> 00:18:14,879
that were definitely vegetables as opposed
to fridge only the Italians were called
398
00:18:14,879 --> 00:18:16,679
tomatoes, fruits, you know, at that stage.
399
00:18:16,829 --> 00:18:19,199
So yeah, I remember those.
400
00:18:19,209 --> 00:18:23,109
Irish, a lot of tourists come over
to Ireland and they'd ask me people
401
00:18:23,109 --> 00:18:26,889
visiting as speakers or whatever,
and they go, Aiden, will you
402
00:18:26,889 --> 00:18:28,449
recommend a good Irish restaurant?
403
00:18:28,449 --> 00:18:29,919
And I go, I'm not doing that to.
404
00:18:30,924 --> 00:18:30,934
No.
405
00:18:31,829 --> 00:18:33,659
Yeah, that's, that's, yeah.
406
00:18:33,659 --> 00:18:35,609
Recipe for disaster, no pun intended.
407
00:18:35,609 --> 00:18:36,809
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
408
00:18:36,809 --> 00:18:38,999
There's list of Pick your own.
409
00:18:39,234 --> 00:18:41,634
Let's move on to a couple of things.
410
00:18:41,739 --> 00:18:46,644
I, I love this idea of the,
the wisdom world concept
411
00:18:47,159 --> 00:18:47,309
Yeah.
412
00:18:47,484 --> 00:18:50,154
and an organization creating
their own wisdom world.
413
00:18:51,114 --> 00:18:51,779
we'll share a bit about that.
414
00:18:54,149 --> 00:18:57,419
Yeah, I, I look, you know,
skills come up a lot, right?
415
00:18:57,419 --> 00:19:00,659
In terms of organizations and, and I
wasn't trying to be different, but I, I
416
00:19:00,659 --> 00:19:02,279
feel when we talk about this idea of, hey.
417
00:19:02,969 --> 00:19:06,029
Skills, first organization,
skills based organization.
418
00:19:06,029 --> 00:19:07,979
And it's, you know, I talk about
it a little bit in the book.
419
00:19:08,729 --> 00:19:11,279
What I was focused more on is
what are we actually trying to
420
00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:12,539
get to with all of this stuff?
421
00:19:12,569 --> 00:19:12,869
You know?
422
00:19:12,869 --> 00:19:15,029
And I came up with this idea
of a, of a wisdom world.
423
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:18,179
You know, how are we, how are we
actually, number one, understanding
424
00:19:18,179 --> 00:19:19,889
people's skills at scale.
425
00:19:20,399 --> 00:19:25,289
You know, how are we actually empowering
people to learn at the quickest,
426
00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:26,879
most immersive way as possible?
427
00:19:27,299 --> 00:19:30,419
And then also, how are we actually
tapping into all of this amazing.
428
00:19:30,794 --> 00:19:34,454
Tacit knowledge that's in organizations
that, that leave when people go.
429
00:19:34,484 --> 00:19:34,844
Right.
430
00:19:35,684 --> 00:19:37,904
And I'm sure you, I know you've
worked with a few organizations,
431
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:41,504
you, you know, a lot of very
distinct ideas and perspectives.
432
00:19:41,504 --> 00:19:43,814
Many, you go, they're gone.
433
00:19:43,964 --> 00:19:44,564
You know what I mean?
434
00:19:44,564 --> 00:19:47,504
And, and you know, for forgetting
legacy, you know, the actual
435
00:19:47,504 --> 00:19:48,944
ideas behind it are gone.
436
00:19:49,424 --> 00:19:49,514
Right.
437
00:19:49,964 --> 00:19:53,894
So I, I think for me, there was
some world that was around this idea
438
00:19:53,924 --> 00:19:58,274
of how do we utilize technologies
like ai, but other things.
439
00:19:58,604 --> 00:20:00,824
To understand and in fair skills, right?
440
00:20:00,854 --> 00:20:07,124
So for example, if Aiden is a guitarist,
right, and he's in a band, you know,
441
00:20:07,124 --> 00:20:11,024
we can utilize AI to infer that it's
likely that Aiden is good with people.
442
00:20:11,444 --> 00:20:15,704
You know, it's likely that he's pretty
good communicator at seven, outta 10.
443
00:20:16,034 --> 00:20:18,434
You know, it's likely that
he's a decent presenter.
444
00:20:18,824 --> 00:20:22,214
So one of the things that people don't
really talk a lot about AI in the talent
445
00:20:22,214 --> 00:20:23,954
world is the strength of inference.
446
00:20:23,954 --> 00:20:27,074
You know, so Aiden has
these broad level of skills.
447
00:20:27,509 --> 00:20:30,719
And we can actually
infer what that's like.
448
00:20:30,719 --> 00:20:33,809
Now, once you get to that point, then
it becomes around, well, how do we
449
00:20:33,809 --> 00:20:38,849
actually understand quickly how good
Aiden is at that particular skill?
450
00:20:38,849 --> 00:20:40,679
So how do we understand
in a three minute thing.
451
00:20:41,834 --> 00:20:43,874
How good a, a presenter Aiden is.
452
00:20:43,874 --> 00:20:47,264
I know you're a good presenter in, but
just for, for word of example, right then.
453
00:20:47,264 --> 00:20:49,124
Then we need gamified tools.
454
00:20:49,124 --> 00:20:51,914
We need immersive experiences that
can quickly understand how good
455
00:20:51,914 --> 00:20:54,134
Aiden is at that skill, right?
456
00:20:54,224 --> 00:20:58,254
So we can think about ourselves now
as this wisdom world, not just about.
457
00:20:59,414 --> 00:21:02,744
Being this broad level skills-based
organization, but really
458
00:21:02,744 --> 00:21:07,424
understanding, using AI tools to
really understand skills-based,
459
00:21:07,874 --> 00:21:13,814
really tapping into immersive reality
properly, you know, to help people.
460
00:21:14,204 --> 00:21:15,584
Understand their skill level.
461
00:21:15,584 --> 00:21:16,964
To improve their skill level.
462
00:21:17,264 --> 00:21:20,864
I spoke with an organization in
Switzerland called Insight Sphere who
463
00:21:20,864 --> 00:21:24,044
basically have created an AI based
immersive experience for improving
464
00:21:24,044 --> 00:21:27,374
communication, and it extracts
all information from all the TED
465
00:21:27,584 --> 00:21:29,174
TEDx talks around the world and.
466
00:21:29,344 --> 00:21:31,714
Gives you this kind of avatar
around how you're doing.
467
00:21:32,404 --> 00:21:35,974
And then there's a company in Ireland
called Mercs Technologies that create
468
00:21:35,974 --> 00:21:40,534
really amazing immersive experiences in
terms of medical device design, you know,
469
00:21:40,534 --> 00:21:44,254
because you're obviously dealing with very
high, high value pieces of equipment that
470
00:21:44,254 --> 00:21:45,544
you don't wanna mess around with, right?
471
00:21:45,874 --> 00:21:50,164
So I think just that idea of
utilizing these new technologies.
472
00:21:50,699 --> 00:21:54,629
In a way that's building this new level
of wisdom within the organization.
473
00:21:55,289 --> 00:21:57,749
You know, you've probably heard
of a company called Slick Plus.
474
00:21:57,749 --> 00:22:00,749
We also interviewed, they're big
into how do we capture implicit
475
00:22:00,749 --> 00:22:02,759
knowledge within an organization.
476
00:22:02,999 --> 00:22:06,419
So I, I think when we bring all of those
things together, I was just, I'm really
477
00:22:06,419 --> 00:22:08,429
interested in that idea of utilizing.
478
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:12,509
You know, these experiential learning
types, you know, using AI at scale,
479
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:17,339
using new platforms to capture implicit
knowledge, to create meaningful
480
00:22:17,339 --> 00:22:21,209
wisdom worlds that were actually,
the level of knowledge is massively
481
00:22:21,209 --> 00:22:22,979
growing in an organization over time.
482
00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:27,059
You know, and I think it's not
probably talked a length enough.
483
00:22:27,059 --> 00:22:30,119
If we talk about learning, we talk
about a lot of skills development,
484
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,349
but we don't necessarily talk about
the, the, the chain from inference
485
00:22:34,349 --> 00:22:37,139
through to, you know, development
through to retention, you know.
486
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:38,469
One last one I'd love to share.
487
00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:43,689
You and I both share a love for Joseph
Campbell and his work hero with a thousand
488
00:22:44,399 --> 00:22:44,729
I knew.
489
00:22:44,729 --> 00:22:44,749
I knew.
490
00:22:44,749 --> 00:22:45,284
You know that one?
491
00:22:45,299 --> 00:22:47,589
and all the myth stuff is if
492
00:22:47,634 --> 00:22:47,924
Yeah.
493
00:22:48,069 --> 00:22:49,669
by the way, as a, listener or viewer.
494
00:22:49,769 --> 00:22:51,329
Read anything by Joseph Campbell.
495
00:22:51,329 --> 00:22:53,219
Even look at his stuff on YouTube.
496
00:22:53,219 --> 00:22:58,349
It's absolutely fascinating about how
to understand the structure of stories.
497
00:22:58,349 --> 00:23:01,109
You see it in stuff like Star
Wars, you see it everywhere.
498
00:23:01,199 --> 00:23:03,869
Once you know it, it's a set of
lenses through which to see the world.
499
00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:07,169
I loved what you talked about
and it's something we talk a lot
500
00:23:07,169 --> 00:23:09,899
about the show when we talk about
the future of the world of work.
501
00:23:10,104 --> 00:23:14,454
Is the idea that the,
the four and 40 is dead.
502
00:23:14,454 --> 00:23:15,204
So the year
503
00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:16,009
Yeah.
504
00:23:16,104 --> 00:23:18,714
for four years, work in
an organization for 40.
505
00:23:19,284 --> 00:23:22,044
It's now more like the
opposite way around.
506
00:23:22,959 --> 00:23:23,379
You're,
507
00:23:23,659 --> 00:23:24,379
Yeah, that's true.
508
00:23:24,384 --> 00:23:26,364
40 years and you're constantly moving.
509
00:23:26,694 --> 00:23:29,514
Maybe you're working for four
industries at the same time, let
510
00:23:29,804 --> 00:23:30,094
Yeah.
511
00:23:30,099 --> 00:23:30,229
Yeah.
512
00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:30,919
Yeah.
513
00:23:31,104 --> 00:23:35,184
And you talk about the new
hero's journey for work.
514
00:23:35,244 --> 00:23:36,054
And I thought that'd be a
515
00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:36,559
Yeah.
516
00:23:36,654 --> 00:23:38,244
conclude and share this idea.
517
00:23:39,439 --> 00:23:41,989
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think first and
foremost, and you're absolutely right.
518
00:23:41,989 --> 00:23:44,299
I look, I, I have this very
simple concept in my head in that.
519
00:23:45,094 --> 00:23:48,154
We're, we've gone from this
mono to poly career, right?
520
00:23:48,154 --> 00:23:50,794
And there's loads of different
people talking about, as I like
521
00:23:50,794 --> 00:23:53,164
to say, they're talking about
different versions of the same thing.
522
00:23:53,404 --> 00:23:56,854
So, you know, the career is a squiggle,
the career assist, the career is that I
523
00:23:56,854 --> 00:24:00,034
think the most interesting conversation
I had, I, I spoke to Connor Lynch.
524
00:24:00,034 --> 00:24:02,524
He's got, you know, he is worked in
marketing, I think you know, Connor
525
00:24:02,524 --> 00:24:07,324
in at some point, but he talks about
career as as asset development, right?
526
00:24:07,324 --> 00:24:08,764
Which is really interesting concept.
527
00:24:08,764 --> 00:24:10,324
So, you know, this idea of.
528
00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:14,129
Doing 10 things, but you're
building assets over time,
529
00:24:14,129 --> 00:24:15,299
so you might be, you know.
530
00:24:15,979 --> 00:24:16,789
You have a book, right?
531
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:17,749
You're building an asset there.
532
00:24:17,749 --> 00:24:19,489
You might have a new tool
that you've developed.
533
00:24:19,489 --> 00:24:22,819
You've got a side hustle,
you know, in, in the craft.
534
00:24:22,849 --> 00:24:24,769
You might have a full-time job as well.
535
00:24:24,769 --> 00:24:27,439
You might have some
investments going along too.
536
00:24:27,829 --> 00:24:31,069
And so it all points towards this idea
of the, you know, we talk about the
537
00:24:31,069 --> 00:24:34,159
polymaths, you know, I like to talk
about, you know, the poly career, right?
538
00:24:34,159 --> 00:24:36,079
The poly experience, the poly journey.
539
00:24:36,619 --> 00:24:39,379
If we wanna, if we wanna talk about
that way, and it's the re the reason I
540
00:24:39,379 --> 00:24:42,919
mentioned the hero's journey, and you
kind of alluded to it there, is that.
541
00:24:43,879 --> 00:24:46,879
You know, it used to be a case
where the organizations, we were
542
00:24:46,879 --> 00:24:48,324
heroes, you know, in their journey.
543
00:24:49,459 --> 00:24:52,909
In my view, it is turning the other
way now where, you know, we are the
544
00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:57,379
heroes and you know, organizations are
part of our hero's journey right now.
545
00:24:57,379 --> 00:25:01,339
That's really interesting because
it forces organizations to really
546
00:25:01,339 --> 00:25:04,909
think more and more like designers
and think about how can we actually
547
00:25:05,149 --> 00:25:09,589
impel people like Gaden and Barry to
actually work with us, you know, on
548
00:25:09,589 --> 00:25:13,399
certain projects or on special things,
whatever those are, and I'm, you
549
00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:14,689
know, I'm really interested in that.
550
00:25:14,689 --> 00:25:15,739
I'm interested in.
551
00:25:16,114 --> 00:25:18,094
You know, I haven't had, I don't
have an answer in the book, just,
552
00:25:18,094 --> 00:25:19,384
just anybody's listening out there.
553
00:25:20,224 --> 00:25:27,454
You know, I think there's a level
of maximum level of experience that
554
00:25:27,454 --> 00:25:31,864
an organization can create for an
individual at which point then in an
555
00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:34,834
individual on their own can probably
create, you know, you, you, you love
556
00:25:34,834 --> 00:25:36,814
your S in, so they can probably jump to.
557
00:25:37,564 --> 00:25:39,394
You know, a more experiential career.
558
00:25:39,784 --> 00:25:44,104
So I'm really interested in that blend
and poly stuff that's going on where, you
559
00:25:44,104 --> 00:25:47,284
know, people like ourselves, we might be
working with one organization two days a
560
00:25:47,284 --> 00:25:52,084
week whilst doing a book whilst, you know,
having a be part of a broader network.
561
00:25:52,414 --> 00:25:53,704
You know, and it's really,
really interesting.
562
00:25:53,704 --> 00:25:55,744
I mean, you look at the younger
generations and you start
563
00:25:55,744 --> 00:25:57,094
looking at their love for.
564
00:25:57,469 --> 00:25:59,449
Socialism for collectivism.
565
00:25:59,749 --> 00:26:02,389
So we're seeing a massive growth
in cooperative businesses, you
566
00:26:02,389 --> 00:26:05,659
know, businesses that are owned
by the people who work in them.
567
00:26:06,229 --> 00:26:09,829
And that's all part of this breaking
through this barrier of, you know
568
00:26:10,129 --> 00:26:14,569
the experience, the work experience,
work as experience plateau you
569
00:26:14,569 --> 00:26:15,889
know, into this more broader thing.
570
00:26:15,889 --> 00:26:16,854
So I think it's a really interesting.
571
00:26:18,424 --> 00:26:21,904
Thing that's happening even in Europe,
15 to 20% of us now are working
572
00:26:21,904 --> 00:26:23,374
on our own in some shape or form.
573
00:26:23,974 --> 00:26:25,324
Much, much bigger in America.
574
00:26:26,164 --> 00:26:30,454
And I think new technologies, you
know, new, new types of networks,
575
00:26:30,454 --> 00:26:32,944
super networks, you know, they're
all really gonna drive different
576
00:26:32,944 --> 00:26:39,034
questions around what it means to, to
to work on what it means to work with
577
00:26:39,034 --> 00:26:41,254
an organization versus working for.
578
00:26:41,254 --> 00:26:42,274
And I think if I, to sum up.
579
00:26:43,369 --> 00:26:46,399
Where I believe it's going,
it's width versus four.
580
00:26:46,459 --> 00:26:50,089
You know, it used to be about four working
for, we used to use the phrase working
581
00:26:50,089 --> 00:26:52,429
for now we use the phrase Working with,
582
00:26:53,499 --> 00:26:56,384
Such Aly book for that,
even for the individual.
583
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,749
Wants to do it, wants to jump
the curve, but is maybe a bit
584
00:27:00,749 --> 00:27:02,969
reticent and bit unsure about it.
585
00:27:02,974 --> 00:27:04,289
It helps you actually go well.
586
00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:05,549
This is the way the world's going.
587
00:27:05,879 --> 00:27:06,419
Barry, for
588
00:27:06,504 --> 00:27:06,794
Yeah.
589
00:27:06,809 --> 00:27:11,189
who wanna reach out to you for talks,
keynotes, workshops, to find out more
590
00:27:11,189 --> 00:27:12,599
about the book, where's the best place?
591
00:27:14,179 --> 00:27:16,939
So Barry winkles.com and also on LinkedIn.
592
00:27:17,149 --> 00:27:19,039
You know, we all love
LinkedIn at this stage.
593
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,799
And then book is on Amazon,
it's in Barnes and Noble.
594
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:24,889
It's in all the, all the big
sites as well, you know and also,
595
00:27:24,889 --> 00:27:27,109
and I want to congratulate you
on your Thinkers 50 as well.
596
00:27:27,109 --> 00:27:28,519
Wanna we'll have that on record.
597
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:30,799
'cause I, I know that was a big,
I think it was a big goal of
598
00:27:30,829 --> 00:27:32,839
yours for, for a number of years.
599
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:36,589
So, you know, there's an example of
the hero's journey in action, you know.
600
00:27:37,194 --> 00:27:37,439
I use.
601
00:27:41,074 --> 00:27:42,199
Yeah, well useful.
602
00:27:43,754 --> 00:27:47,429
author of Future World work, how
leaders can create destinations for
603
00:27:47,429 --> 00:27:49,859
talent that excite, entice, and engage.
604
00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:53,009
Chief Strategy Officer at
CPL and Head of the Future of
605
00:27:53,009 --> 00:27:54,759
Work Institute, barry Winkles
606
00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:56,696
Thanks.
607
00:27:57,293 --> 00:27:59,483
Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning.
608
00:27:59,543 --> 00:28:03,173
Inside Learning is brought to you by the
Learnovate Center in Trinity College.
609
00:28:03,173 --> 00:28:07,283
Dublin Learnovate is funded by
Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.
610
00:28:07,403 --> 00:28:11,783
Visit learnovate center.org to find out
more about our research on the science
611
00:28:11,783 --> 00:28:13,373
of learning and the future of work.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,930
The Inside Learning Podcast is brought
to you by the Learnovate Center.
2
00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:08,430
Learnovate research explores the power
of learning to unlock human potential.
3
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,150
Find out more about learnovate research
on the science of learning and the
4
00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:15,030
future of work@learnovatecenter.org.
5
00:00:15,399 --> 00:00:18,789
Today's guest delivers a practical
strategy guide for attracting,
6
00:00:18,789 --> 00:00:22,959
retaining, and empowering the talent
you need to drive your business forward.
7
00:00:23,414 --> 00:00:27,494
he describes the contemporary reality
of work, how it is evolving, and
8
00:00:27,494 --> 00:00:31,364
how it represents a new opportunity
for leaders to create organizations
9
00:00:31,364 --> 00:00:33,824
capable of innovation and growth.
10
00:00:34,504 --> 00:00:37,754
He explains how to straddle the
challenge of building a company that
11
00:00:37,754 --> 00:00:41,984
is both a hyper efficient machine
and a healthy living organism.
12
00:00:42,344 --> 00:00:46,394
It's a pleasure to welcome the author
of Future Work World, how Leaders
13
00:00:46,394 --> 00:00:51,134
Can Create Destinations for Talent
that Excite, entice, and engage.
14
00:00:51,314 --> 00:00:55,664
Chief Strategy Officer at CPL and
head of the Future of Work Institute.
15
00:00:55,964 --> 00:00:57,771
Barry Winkles, welcome to the show.
16
00:00:58,770 --> 00:01:02,120
very much Aidan.And full transparency,
Barry and I used to work together.
17
00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:06,690
. So it's great to see you writing Barry
and getting this out to the world because
18
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,790
you were constantly getting towards this.
19
00:01:08,790 --> 00:01:09,685
It was only a matter of time.
20
00:01:10,238 --> 00:01:14,408
We did a white paper six years ago in
the Future Work Institute because really
21
00:01:14,408 --> 00:01:17,828
recognized there was no definition
of what the future of work was, or
22
00:01:17,828 --> 00:01:19,388
a user guide for the future of work.
23
00:01:19,388 --> 00:01:23,048
So we tried to develop a relatively
simple white paper around what
24
00:01:23,048 --> 00:01:26,378
it is, what's it about, what it
contains, et cetera, et cetera.
25
00:01:26,858 --> 00:01:29,918
And then I think we started talking
a couple of years ago and really
26
00:01:29,918 --> 00:01:31,958
through the work that we've done
in the Future Work Institute.
27
00:01:32,558 --> 00:01:36,158
The white papers that we'd written and
then some of the conversations we had.
28
00:01:36,188 --> 00:01:39,338
And I also felt, to be honest with
you, it was a good time to do a book
29
00:01:39,338 --> 00:01:42,188
about work when you consider all the
changes that are happening around
30
00:01:42,188 --> 00:01:45,728
us through technology and, you know,
other societal impacts as well.
31
00:01:45,728 --> 00:01:46,148
So, yeah.
32
00:01:46,148 --> 00:01:48,158
So it's, it's finally
good to have it out there.
33
00:01:48,243 --> 00:01:52,023
The one thing I know is you're not a
boring writer and you didn't create a
34
00:01:52,023 --> 00:01:55,983
boring book because even though people
might hear it's a playbook for the
35
00:01:55,983 --> 00:01:57,273
world of work or the future of work.
36
00:01:58,088 --> 00:02:02,943
Your personality's very much in it, and
I know music has a huge influence on
37
00:02:02,943 --> 00:02:04,563
your writing and your thinking as well.
38
00:02:04,883 --> 00:02:05,173
Yeah.
39
00:02:05,703 --> 00:02:09,803
You told me you learned the guitar
during COVID, a new thing added but maybe
40
00:02:09,803 --> 00:02:12,533
we'll talk about the musical influence
because it's throughout the book.
41
00:02:13,703 --> 00:02:16,798
Yeah, no, obviously I think
there's a couple of things you,
42
00:02:16,798 --> 00:02:18,418
you probably appreciate this.
43
00:02:19,423 --> 00:02:22,423
I think what ends up happening when you do
your first draft of a book, you realize,
44
00:02:22,423 --> 00:02:23,833
is there enough of me in the book?
45
00:02:24,313 --> 00:02:26,443
And to be honest with you,
I felt, no, not really.
46
00:02:26,443 --> 00:02:29,773
So I ended up going back to,
well, what do I really love?
47
00:02:29,773 --> 00:02:30,013
Right?
48
00:02:30,013 --> 00:02:30,883
I love music.
49
00:02:31,183 --> 00:02:34,003
I love things like science fiction,
you know, I love writing, I love
50
00:02:34,003 --> 00:02:35,323
all these various types of things.
51
00:02:35,323 --> 00:02:38,623
So the book is a little bit of a
smorgasbord of all of those ideas.
52
00:02:38,623 --> 00:02:40,463
So right down to the point that.
53
00:02:41,308 --> 00:02:44,038
At the back of the book, I call out
a number of albums that you should
54
00:02:44,038 --> 00:02:45,418
listen to whilst it's reading the book.
55
00:02:45,418 --> 00:02:48,748
So that's how far I went on, on
that, on that side, I think the, the
56
00:02:48,748 --> 00:02:52,048
biggest influence on me, and, and
you know this well, is I have a huge
57
00:02:52,168 --> 00:02:54,058
appreciation for immersive storytelling.
58
00:02:54,808 --> 00:02:56,518
So in the book, it's like a journey.
59
00:02:56,518 --> 00:02:58,828
So it's been broken up into four parts.
60
00:02:58,888 --> 00:03:01,738
Each part is unique, so you
can read each part on its own.
61
00:03:02,068 --> 00:03:04,138
You know, but I necessarily
reading the next part, I'm always
62
00:03:04,138 --> 00:03:05,638
mindful of keeping people engaged.
63
00:03:06,118 --> 00:03:07,438
And it goes from mindset.
64
00:03:07,438 --> 00:03:10,828
So how do we need to think about the
future of work to the meta waves, which
65
00:03:10,828 --> 00:03:12,628
is, you know, the big underlying trends.
66
00:03:12,898 --> 00:03:16,468
But then I go into a lot of the work that
we developed as part of the future work.
67
00:03:16,468 --> 00:03:18,418
And should I go into this
idea of a mixed desk?
68
00:03:18,418 --> 00:03:18,748
So.
69
00:03:18,963 --> 00:03:23,283
What are the 16 areas that we can innovate
around how we design our worlds of work?
70
00:03:23,613 --> 00:03:28,263
And then finally into this idea of move,
how, how can we actually utilize immersive
71
00:03:28,263 --> 00:03:30,513
storytelling to emotionally move people?
72
00:03:30,753 --> 00:03:34,983
And throughout the book again, trying to
sprinkle that little bit of me in there.
73
00:03:35,368 --> 00:03:39,298
There are nine jumps into the near
future of work that are fictional stories
74
00:03:39,838 --> 00:03:43,228
that highlight different aspects of
the future work based on our research.
75
00:03:43,228 --> 00:03:45,178
So there's a bit of everything in there.
76
00:03:45,178 --> 00:03:50,878
I even in my introduction, I, I told I
com compare my first book to first album,
77
00:03:50,968 --> 00:03:52,438
you know, and everything in between.
78
00:03:52,438 --> 00:03:55,588
So yeah, it's definitely it's
a pretty accessible book.
79
00:03:55,588 --> 00:03:58,888
And I did an interview yesterday
where the guy who read it said, why
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it's a book for business leaders.
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It's actually a book for everyone, which
I really love that that feedback 'cause
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you, you, as you know, in trying to
write something that, you know, engages
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people but also is relatively universal.
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It is quite a difficult thing to
do, particularly when you actually
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sit down to do the bloody thing.
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So that's that, that was my learning.
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You know, my, my other learning was next
time do a coffee table book, you know,
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50 pictures on the 50 pages, so, yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That's exactly it.
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I had this vision of, you know, a
Tom Ford desk, you know, fashion book
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with big pictures, you know, and you
know those little semi paragraphs, you
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know, of content, you know, per page.
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So that, that, if anybody's asked
me what my next book is, it's that.
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Absolutely.
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If people
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Yeah.
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tables anymore,
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Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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well, let, let's, one other thing
I found interesting was, and I was
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delighted to see this actually, was
you did start with mindset because.
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No matter what you're talking about,
like I, I heard this great saying
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recently that you, you, you know, the
whole idea is that you can't force a,
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a horse to water, but actually worse
than that, you can't waterboard a horse.
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yeah.
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Very true.
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a leadership team needs to have the right
mindset before they even look at what the
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future of work is for their organization.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I know this is a big, you know, kind
of focus area of yours and, you know, over
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the, over the last few years and what,
what I was finding is in the projects
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that we're doing, we, we were doing
as part of the Future Work institute.
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It was almost that we were going
into a project without giving
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the leaders the dictionary.
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So they didn't know the language
or the reason we were doing things.
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And that's why, and also I've read your
book as well, and I read, I had read a
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couple of books that had focused in on.
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You know, I suppose,
what would you call it?
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Level setting your mind, right?
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And then there was three very
unique aspects of the mindset
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that I wanted to bring to bear.
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So one is called the Destination Designer.
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One is called the Societal
Whisperer, and then the other
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one is the systems Architect.
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And they came out of working with various,
HR teams, particularly leadership teams,
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are teams involved in the world of talent.
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Recognizing that those three areas are,
were kind of the level setting area before
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you could go on the journey ultimately.
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So I was very mindful of that.
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Really halfway through writing the
book, when I started writing the book,
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I didn't have a mindset section and then
actually recognized myself, well, if
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somebody was coming to this book called.
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Would they get the maximum value
out of this supposed user manual?
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And that's when I said, oh, hold a second.
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This is what we found from
the companies we work with.
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So to me it was a really
important breakthrough for
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myself in terms of the book.
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And then also what I've found
Aidan is that I've gotten very good
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feedback from people that I've done
projects and workshops with since
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the book around the power of those
three elements to the mindset,?
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So I was very, very glad I had
spent time on that, and as you
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know it, and we worked together.
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A lot of it is mindset, and even in the
book I say, look, we can talk about skills
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all we like, but the most important skill
set for the future work is a mindset.
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And I'm really, really
passionate about that.
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You know?
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One of the things that emerged from
me and even when we worked together,
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it's a decade ago now, almost.
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You, you would say stuff, say, because
you, you were, you're extremely well
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read and I wasn't quite as well read
then, and you'd say stuff and I had no
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idea what you're talking about and you
don't know that because I can feign
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that I know what you're talking about.
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But the reason I say
that is mindset for me.
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Also, also you level up so you,
you level up with your knowledge.
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So as you said,
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yeah.
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you need a different language in
order to level up as well, because
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language is how we carry, it's like
an operating system for the human.
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Yeah.
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Hundred percent.
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Yeah.
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piece comes across that you're
actually, you said there, that
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you're giving them a language,
but it really helps them level up.
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And also as a leadership team,
they're on the same page then.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's funny because like, you know, it's
interesting you're talking about that
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even when we work together, there's
a, there's a, there's an unconscious
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osmosis that goes on, you know, so , I
learned a lot, a bit from you from.
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You know, stuff that you went through,
let's say as a professional sports
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person and then you've gone through
your own journey into innovation.
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So like, , I always, I'm one of
those, I'm not saying I rob people
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stuff ever, but I love osmosis.
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You know what I mean?
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I love that idea of.
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Geez, Aden's after saying something there
that, you know, really I really thought
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about and I know we sometimes would speak
different languages, but we always have
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this passion around the power of thinking,
and the power of all of that kinda stuff.
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And I think that was, that's
really, really important to me.
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And the mindsets in a way,
they're almost like vessels.
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It's almost like, here's three vessels.
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As long as you adopt these principles, you
can kind of fill these with new methods
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and new tools and all that kind of stuff.
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I didn't wanna get too caught up
in toolkits, you know what I mean?
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But I wanted to make sure there was
enough there that was universal enough.
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And I, I've seen it, you know, you hear
a lot of people talking about, oh, HR
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aren't strategic enough, blah, blah, blah.
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I, I'd look at it slightly differently.
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I would say that HR
aren't holistic enough.
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You know, in the way that they may be look
at challenges or look at opportunities,
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you know, and, and never before has
there been an opportunity for, you know,
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HR leaders to really help craft this,
you know, you know, starting different,
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I'm gonna say a world of work, but also
similar at the same time, you know?
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Yeah.
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So I, I just love that idea of.
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You know, bringing new language to
bear into, and you know, this anyway,
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into sectors that maybe wouldn't be
used to these types of approaches,
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you know, and look, as we all know,
there's nothing new under the sun.
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So even the book itself, like
the book is very, very original.
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You know, there's elements
from everywhere in there.
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Like even even in the, the third part of
the book, which is this mixed desk idea.
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Like, I got that from my uncle of
mine had a music room, you know,
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and I used to have like mixed desks,
you know, and I used to run in as a
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kid and mess with all the settings.
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And, and that was really important
to me because, you know, yourself
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in ev I didn't want to have a book.
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It was like, the future of work
will be, you know, there's no, if
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somebody's looking for a really
strong theme, the main theme in the
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book really is we need to think more
strategically about the future of work.
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That's it.
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But in there, there is mindsets
and mixed desks to imagine
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and reimagine worlds of work.
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And sometimes you might have
to go backwards, sometimes
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you have to go forwards.
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And you know, for me it was really
important that it didn't become
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this standing on the mountain top.
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00:10:24,509 --> 00:10:28,319
You know, preaching around this has
to be like this because, you know.
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I'm a realist.
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You know, I've, as I said, I head
up the Future Work Institute.
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We, we work on projects that are
important to businesses that if we
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make a mistake, you know, it's ROI
and all that kind of good stuff.
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So I just was really mindful of that,
Eden, that it was more of a, you
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know, a guide, a design guide, but it
wasn't necessarily making any massive
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statements about, this is definitively.
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Where things are going to go.
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'cause you know yourself and
like it's leaders and people
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like ourselves and other people
that write the future of work.
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So we can't definitively say
it's going to a hundred percent
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be this or that or the other.
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So that, I was mindful
of that in the book.
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So that's hopefully what will be
reflective when people read the
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book is this idea of a journey,
the user guide that they can
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utilize in their own context.
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00:11:13,589 --> 00:11:16,319
You know, that, that was really
important to me because you know
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what to say, you, you've seen those
books out there in the, you know.
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This is the team.
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This is what's going to be,
and they're great books.
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They, they challenge your mind, but
that's not what this book is, you know?
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The mixing desk really resonated with me.
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There was a lady we had on the show,
Frederika Fabritius, and she writes about
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Yes.
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00:11:33,064 --> 00:11:36,424
and the future, the leading brain,
the workplace brain, stuff like this.
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yeah.
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But she has this term that she
co-opted, it's called neuro signature.
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So everybody has
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Yeah.
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setting, like you were
saying, like your uncle's
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Yeah.
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setting, a graphical equalizer,
the way I pictured it, like the old
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Hi-Fis for those who remember them.
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yeah,
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everybody has a setting that works for
them of serotonin and oxytocin, et cetera.
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So
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yeah.
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experience the world very
uniquely to themselves.
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00:12:02,919 --> 00:12:06,159
So there, there's neurodiversity,
and the reason I, I share that is.
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You were saying there about the different
idea, like a systems architect and when
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Hmm.
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organization talks about hr, the
leadership team have a different idea of
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what HR does and therefore the setting
of the organization's very unique
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Exactly.
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Yeah, yeah, that's exactly,
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' cause it's, it's not
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yeah,
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the ideal setting, it's going, you need to
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exactly.
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your are first first and then
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use the book.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
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And you're, you're absolutely right.
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The, the thing for me was, look,
so the easiest way I can describe
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it is, here's 16 equalizers.
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We know that these are the important
ones from a. You know, workplace
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of the now and next, but play
around based on your contact.
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So that whole section around mixed desk
is literally a whole methodology of how
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to bring this into your organization.
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Because I was mind, you know, and you'll
appreciate this and you know, you can have
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a little bit too much right brain, you
know, and, and if you don't have a bit of
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the left brain, it can kind of go off in.
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I have a tendency to go
off into space sometimes.
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So he is mindful of you
know, making sure that.
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What I'd learned in my team and
the work projects that we've
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done was also reflected in there.
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So in a way it's, you know, you mentioned
in your diversity thing aid, and that
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was really important to me because I was
mindful of making sure that this resonated
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with left and right brand people.
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I want to keep it simple.
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I know it's more complicated and
that, but you know, people who are
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more creatively inclined will, will
resonate with the fictional stories.
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People who are more practically
inclined will resonate with the model.
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But the idea was that.
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You could utilize the book and between
those four sections, you almost have
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this user guide that you can apply
tomorrow, really, no matter what
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size your organization is, you know?
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And I always like to say that,
just to come back to the equalizer
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analogy, no matter how, what type
of an organization you are or how
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tight things are, you can actually at
least move one of those equalizers.
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You know what I mean?
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And that, that was really
important to me as well.
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'cause I've seen companies that are
really good at one particular, one area.
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That's enough.
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You know what I mean?
305
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In terms of what they're about.
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So yeah, I, I knew the mix
steps would resonate with you.
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You know, I know conversations
we've had over the years.
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So yeah.
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And, and funny eight, that was the thing
that we had trial back in the white paper
310
00:14:20,684 --> 00:14:24,494
that we since evolved through working
with the organizations, you know, and
311
00:14:24,494 --> 00:14:28,604
again, I was mindful it wasn't a big
academic framework, but there was enough
312
00:14:28,604 --> 00:14:31,739
rigor behind it that it's really, really
useful, you know, and useful was my.
313
00:14:32,684 --> 00:14:35,504
Core idea in my head, you
know, how can this be useful,
314
00:14:35,714 --> 00:14:37,094
really, you know, to people.
315
00:14:37,634 --> 00:14:40,004
And my next book might be a little
bit more esoteric, you know,
316
00:14:40,159 --> 00:14:41,184
Yeah, the pictures.
317
00:14:41,244 --> 00:14:42,384
The pictures can be whatever.
318
00:14:44,114 --> 00:14:44,414
yeah.
319
00:14:44,414 --> 00:14:44,954
Yeah, exactly.
320
00:14:44,954 --> 00:14:46,034
I want those big pictures.
321
00:14:46,194 --> 00:14:47,454
share the meta waves because
322
00:14:47,559 --> 00:14:47,849
Yeah,
323
00:14:47,904 --> 00:14:48,984
know, mindset was one thing.
324
00:14:49,349 --> 00:14:50,039
Meta waves.
325
00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:50,214
Meta waves
326
00:14:50,719 --> 00:14:51,009
yeah,
327
00:14:51,114 --> 00:14:54,324
were almost like lenses that you can
328
00:14:54,779 --> 00:14:55,069
yeah.
329
00:14:55,194 --> 00:14:58,584
idea of like, I can try on the lens
and see how the world looks through
330
00:14:58,644 --> 00:15:00,744
that meta wave and see does it
331
00:15:00,944 --> 00:15:01,334
Yeah.
332
00:15:01,704 --> 00:15:04,464
and my organizational setting,
my mixed desk setting.
333
00:15:05,304 --> 00:15:08,424
But some of them I loved, I, I mean,
I loved, and this is a chance for you
334
00:15:08,424 --> 00:15:13,794
to freestyle with your creativity,
like work type salad, stuff like that.
335
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:14,519
Oh yeah.
336
00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:15,419
Everybody loves that one.
337
00:15:17,459 --> 00:15:18,329
Yeah, I'll talk about that one.
338
00:15:18,329 --> 00:15:19,919
So I'll tell you where that one came from.
339
00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:23,099
As you know, Aiden, I'm a big fan
of, you know, Disney, particularly
340
00:15:23,114 --> 00:15:25,229
the, the Imagineering side of things.
341
00:15:25,229 --> 00:15:28,529
You know, the, the theme park design side
of things, which is actually, there's a
342
00:15:28,529 --> 00:15:32,789
lot of concepts of immersive storytelling
reflected in, in the book, but there's
343
00:15:32,789 --> 00:15:34,859
a very famous Imagineer called Ly Crump.
344
00:15:35,099 --> 00:15:39,179
He was one of Walt Disney's right hand
man, and he talked about the fact that in
345
00:15:39,179 --> 00:15:41,039
di Disneyland was like the perfect salad.
346
00:15:41,289 --> 00:15:43,149
You know, perfectly mixed, solid.
347
00:15:43,149 --> 00:15:44,469
Everything blended together.
348
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:48,244
And he said other, other amusement parks
are just like Gladys and tomato, you know?
349
00:15:48,544 --> 00:15:50,724
And it, and it really stuck with me.
350
00:15:51,584 --> 00:15:54,614
So what, when I talk about this idea
of work type solids, if you think about
351
00:15:54,614 --> 00:15:58,874
the modern workforce, it's actually made
up of all types of employees, right?
352
00:15:58,874 --> 00:16:03,074
Permanent employees, temporary
staff, contractors, consultants,
353
00:16:03,374 --> 00:16:04,874
pay by day or gig workers.
354
00:16:04,874 --> 00:16:08,594
But what I'm finding often in organization
I'm working with, it's more like the,
355
00:16:08,594 --> 00:16:12,854
the lettuce and tomato people aren't
using these types of employment types
356
00:16:12,974 --> 00:16:14,804
for real competitive advantage, right?
357
00:16:14,984 --> 00:16:18,944
So for example, asking questions
like, well, what if we had a
358
00:16:19,124 --> 00:16:20,864
pay by the hour R and d team?
359
00:16:21,299 --> 00:16:23,669
What could that bring to
us as an organization?
360
00:16:23,939 --> 00:16:29,399
What if we utilized a new temporary
working model to tap into a diverse
361
00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:33,239
group of society that wouldn't normally
work with an organization like ours?
362
00:16:33,449 --> 00:16:34,979
So that's what I meant
about the work types.
363
00:16:34,979 --> 00:16:38,099
How do we utilize all of these
different types of working and
364
00:16:38,099 --> 00:16:41,879
employment types, mix them into
something that's really connected.
365
00:16:42,314 --> 00:16:44,234
Convergent and meaningful.
366
00:16:44,864 --> 00:16:48,224
You know, and other people have written
about, you know, open talent and,
367
00:16:48,224 --> 00:16:50,804
you know, world without jobs and, you
know, obviously referenced some of
368
00:16:50,804 --> 00:16:55,634
those books with in my own book, but I
see it as one meta wave amongst nine.
369
00:16:56,174 --> 00:16:57,644
But that one is really interesting.
370
00:16:57,734 --> 00:17:01,664
So I think in the real opportunity
for modern organizations is to.
371
00:17:02,069 --> 00:17:05,999
Really stand back and think about
what employment type will work
372
00:17:05,999 --> 00:17:07,919
for us based on our contexts.
373
00:17:08,369 --> 00:17:11,939
And then what, how will that tap
into this globally diverse group
374
00:17:11,939 --> 00:17:15,179
of people that we can't necessarily
attract in different ways?
375
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,789
But if you think about yourself, Aiden,
I know we've had these conversations.
376
00:17:17,789 --> 00:17:18,269
Hope, hope.
377
00:17:18,269 --> 00:17:21,539
If you don't mind me saying this, you're
somebody a bit like me, you, you kind of
378
00:17:21,539 --> 00:17:25,139
like a freeform portfolio type of working.
379
00:17:25,229 --> 00:17:25,559
Right?
380
00:17:25,889 --> 00:17:29,909
And you know, so if organizations
want to attract and work with
381
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:31,679
people like you, then they're
gonna have to go, well actually.
382
00:17:32,009 --> 00:17:33,059
Aiden is our gig guy.
383
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:33,449
Right.
384
00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:37,409
But equally, if there's another person
who's a deep, you know, engineering
385
00:17:37,409 --> 00:17:42,299
technical expert who wants that security,
that company also has to think about
386
00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:44,969
that and work with that on that side and
getting those things to work together.
387
00:17:44,969 --> 00:17:45,899
There's real magic there.
388
00:17:45,899 --> 00:17:47,489
You know, if, if we
can really tap into it.
389
00:17:47,634 --> 00:17:48,924
I was thinking about the salads.
390
00:17:49,014 --> 00:17:52,944
Do you remember like Ireland in the
eighties if you, if you got a salad,
391
00:17:53,219 --> 00:17:53,759
Oh, yeah.
392
00:17:53,934 --> 00:17:55,104
that red onion.
393
00:17:58,319 --> 00:17:59,789
Well, I also, I also, yeah.
394
00:17:59,789 --> 00:18:01,259
I also remember a friend
of mine saying that to me.
395
00:18:01,259 --> 00:18:04,439
He said there was no such thing as a
crunchy, solid, you know, it was a damp,
396
00:18:05,249 --> 00:18:11,729
limp, you know, green leaf, you know, and,
and tomatoes that were, yeah, tomatoes
397
00:18:11,729 --> 00:18:14,879
that were definitely vegetables as opposed
to fridge only the Italians were called
398
00:18:14,879 --> 00:18:16,679
tomatoes, fruits, you know, at that stage.
399
00:18:16,829 --> 00:18:19,199
So yeah, I remember those.
400
00:18:19,209 --> 00:18:23,109
Irish, a lot of tourists come over
to Ireland and they'd ask me people
401
00:18:23,109 --> 00:18:26,889
visiting as speakers or whatever,
and they go, Aiden, will you
402
00:18:26,889 --> 00:18:28,449
recommend a good Irish restaurant?
403
00:18:28,449 --> 00:18:29,919
And I go, I'm not doing that to.
404
00:18:30,924 --> 00:18:30,934
No.
405
00:18:31,829 --> 00:18:33,659
Yeah, that's, that's, yeah.
406
00:18:33,659 --> 00:18:35,609
Recipe for disaster, no pun intended.
407
00:18:35,609 --> 00:18:36,809
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
408
00:18:36,809 --> 00:18:38,999
There's list of Pick your own.
409
00:18:39,234 --> 00:18:41,634
Let's move on to a couple of things.
410
00:18:41,739 --> 00:18:46,644
I, I love this idea of the,
the wisdom world concept
411
00:18:47,159 --> 00:18:47,309
Yeah.
412
00:18:47,484 --> 00:18:50,154
and an organization creating
their own wisdom world.
413
00:18:51,114 --> 00:18:51,779
we'll share a bit about that.
414
00:18:54,149 --> 00:18:57,419
Yeah, I, I look, you know,
skills come up a lot, right?
415
00:18:57,419 --> 00:19:00,659
In terms of organizations and, and I
wasn't trying to be different, but I, I
416
00:19:00,659 --> 00:19:02,279
feel when we talk about this idea of, hey.
417
00:19:02,969 --> 00:19:06,029
Skills, first organization,
skills based organization.
418
00:19:06,029 --> 00:19:07,979
And it's, you know, I talk about
it a little bit in the book.
419
00:19:08,729 --> 00:19:11,279
What I was focused more on is
what are we actually trying to
420
00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:12,539
get to with all of this stuff?
421
00:19:12,569 --> 00:19:12,869
You know?
422
00:19:12,869 --> 00:19:15,029
And I came up with this idea
of a, of a wisdom world.
423
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:18,179
You know, how are we, how are we
actually, number one, understanding
424
00:19:18,179 --> 00:19:19,889
people's skills at scale.
425
00:19:20,399 --> 00:19:25,289
You know, how are we actually empowering
people to learn at the quickest,
426
00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:26,879
most immersive way as possible?
427
00:19:27,299 --> 00:19:30,419
And then also, how are we actually
tapping into all of this amazing.
428
00:19:30,794 --> 00:19:34,454
Tacit knowledge that's in organizations
that, that leave when people go.
429
00:19:34,484 --> 00:19:34,844
Right.
430
00:19:35,684 --> 00:19:37,904
And I'm sure you, I know you've
worked with a few organizations,
431
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:41,504
you, you know, a lot of very
distinct ideas and perspectives.
432
00:19:41,504 --> 00:19:43,814
Many, you go, they're gone.
433
00:19:43,964 --> 00:19:44,564
You know what I mean?
434
00:19:44,564 --> 00:19:47,504
And, and you know, for forgetting
legacy, you know, the actual
435
00:19:47,504 --> 00:19:48,944
ideas behind it are gone.
436
00:19:49,424 --> 00:19:49,514
Right.
437
00:19:49,964 --> 00:19:53,894
So I, I think for me, there was
some world that was around this idea
438
00:19:53,924 --> 00:19:58,274
of how do we utilize technologies
like ai, but other things.
439
00:19:58,604 --> 00:20:00,824
To understand and in fair skills, right?
440
00:20:00,854 --> 00:20:07,124
So for example, if Aiden is a guitarist,
right, and he's in a band, you know,
441
00:20:07,124 --> 00:20:11,024
we can utilize AI to infer that it's
likely that Aiden is good with people.
442
00:20:11,444 --> 00:20:15,704
You know, it's likely that he's pretty
good communicator at seven, outta 10.
443
00:20:16,034 --> 00:20:18,434
You know, it's likely that
he's a decent presenter.
444
00:20:18,824 --> 00:20:22,214
So one of the things that people don't
really talk a lot about AI in the talent
445
00:20:22,214 --> 00:20:23,954
world is the strength of inference.
446
00:20:23,954 --> 00:20:27,074
You know, so Aiden has
these broad level of skills.
447
00:20:27,509 --> 00:20:30,719
And we can actually
infer what that's like.
448
00:20:30,719 --> 00:20:33,809
Now, once you get to that point, then
it becomes around, well, how do we
449
00:20:33,809 --> 00:20:38,849
actually understand quickly how good
Aiden is at that particular skill?
450
00:20:38,849 --> 00:20:40,679
So how do we understand
in a three minute thing.
451
00:20:41,834 --> 00:20:43,874
How good a, a presenter Aiden is.
452
00:20:43,874 --> 00:20:47,264
I know you're a good presenter in, but
just for, for word of example, right then.
453
00:20:47,264 --> 00:20:49,124
Then we need gamified tools.
454
00:20:49,124 --> 00:20:51,914
We need immersive experiences that
can quickly understand how good
455
00:20:51,914 --> 00:20:54,134
Aiden is at that skill, right?
456
00:20:54,224 --> 00:20:58,254
So we can think about ourselves now
as this wisdom world, not just about.
457
00:20:59,414 --> 00:21:02,744
Being this broad level skills-based
organization, but really
458
00:21:02,744 --> 00:21:07,424
understanding, using AI tools to
really understand skills-based,
459
00:21:07,874 --> 00:21:13,814
really tapping into immersive reality
properly, you know, to help people.
460
00:21:14,204 --> 00:21:15,584
Understand their skill level.
461
00:21:15,584 --> 00:21:16,964
To improve their skill level.
462
00:21:17,264 --> 00:21:20,864
I spoke with an organization in
Switzerland called Insight Sphere who
463
00:21:20,864 --> 00:21:24,044
basically have created an AI based
immersive experience for improving
464
00:21:24,044 --> 00:21:27,374
communication, and it extracts
all information from all the TED
465
00:21:27,584 --> 00:21:29,174
TEDx talks around the world and.
466
00:21:29,344 --> 00:21:31,714
Gives you this kind of avatar
around how you're doing.
467
00:21:32,404 --> 00:21:35,974
And then there's a company in Ireland
called Mercs Technologies that create
468
00:21:35,974 --> 00:21:40,534
really amazing immersive experiences in
terms of medical device design, you know,
469
00:21:40,534 --> 00:21:44,254
because you're obviously dealing with very
high, high value pieces of equipment that
470
00:21:44,254 --> 00:21:45,544
you don't wanna mess around with, right?
471
00:21:45,874 --> 00:21:50,164
So I think just that idea of
utilizing these new technologies.
472
00:21:50,699 --> 00:21:54,629
In a way that's building this new level
of wisdom within the organization.
473
00:21:55,289 --> 00:21:57,749
You know, you've probably heard
of a company called Slick Plus.
474
00:21:57,749 --> 00:22:00,749
We also interviewed, they're big
into how do we capture implicit
475
00:22:00,749 --> 00:22:02,759
knowledge within an organization.
476
00:22:02,999 --> 00:22:06,419
So I, I think when we bring all of those
things together, I was just, I'm really
477
00:22:06,419 --> 00:22:08,429
interested in that idea of utilizing.
478
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:12,509
You know, these experiential learning
types, you know, using AI at scale,
479
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:17,339
using new platforms to capture implicit
knowledge, to create meaningful
480
00:22:17,339 --> 00:22:21,209
wisdom worlds that were actually,
the level of knowledge is massively
481
00:22:21,209 --> 00:22:22,979
growing in an organization over time.
482
00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:27,059
You know, and I think it's not
probably talked a length enough.
483
00:22:27,059 --> 00:22:30,119
If we talk about learning, we talk
about a lot of skills development,
484
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,349
but we don't necessarily talk about
the, the, the chain from inference
485
00:22:34,349 --> 00:22:37,139
through to, you know, development
through to retention, you know.
486
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:38,469
One last one I'd love to share.
487
00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:43,689
You and I both share a love for Joseph
Campbell and his work hero with a thousand
488
00:22:44,399 --> 00:22:44,729
I knew.
489
00:22:44,729 --> 00:22:44,749
I knew.
490
00:22:44,749 --> 00:22:45,284
You know that one?
491
00:22:45,299 --> 00:22:47,589
and all the myth stuff is if
492
00:22:47,634 --> 00:22:47,924
Yeah.
493
00:22:48,069 --> 00:22:49,669
by the way, as a, listener or viewer.
494
00:22:49,769 --> 00:22:51,329
Read anything by Joseph Campbell.
495
00:22:51,329 --> 00:22:53,219
Even look at his stuff on YouTube.
496
00:22:53,219 --> 00:22:58,349
It's absolutely fascinating about how
to understand the structure of stories.
497
00:22:58,349 --> 00:23:01,109
You see it in stuff like Star
Wars, you see it everywhere.
498
00:23:01,199 --> 00:23:03,869
Once you know it, it's a set of
lenses through which to see the world.
499
00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:07,169
I loved what you talked about
and it's something we talk a lot
500
00:23:07,169 --> 00:23:09,899
about the show when we talk about
the future of the world of work.
501
00:23:10,104 --> 00:23:14,454
Is the idea that the,
the four and 40 is dead.
502
00:23:14,454 --> 00:23:15,204
So the year
503
00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:16,009
Yeah.
504
00:23:16,104 --> 00:23:18,714
for four years, work in
an organization for 40.
505
00:23:19,284 --> 00:23:22,044
It's now more like the
opposite way around.
506
00:23:22,959 --> 00:23:23,379
You're,
507
00:23:23,659 --> 00:23:24,379
Yeah, that's true.
508
00:23:24,384 --> 00:23:26,364
40 years and you're constantly moving.
509
00:23:26,694 --> 00:23:29,514
Maybe you're working for four
industries at the same time, let
510
00:23:29,804 --> 00:23:30,094
Yeah.
511
00:23:30,099 --> 00:23:30,229
Yeah.
512
00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:30,919
Yeah.
513
00:23:31,104 --> 00:23:35,184
And you talk about the new
hero's journey for work.
514
00:23:35,244 --> 00:23:36,054
And I thought that'd be a
515
00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:36,559
Yeah.
516
00:23:36,654 --> 00:23:38,244
conclude and share this idea.
517
00:23:39,439 --> 00:23:41,989
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think first and
foremost, and you're absolutely right.
518
00:23:41,989 --> 00:23:44,299
I look, I, I have this very
simple concept in my head in that.
519
00:23:45,094 --> 00:23:48,154
We're, we've gone from this
mono to poly career, right?
520
00:23:48,154 --> 00:23:50,794
And there's loads of different
people talking about, as I like
521
00:23:50,794 --> 00:23:53,164
to say, they're talking about
different versions of the same thing.
522
00:23:53,404 --> 00:23:56,854
So, you know, the career is a squiggle,
the career assist, the career is that I
523
00:23:56,854 --> 00:24:00,034
think the most interesting conversation
I had, I, I spoke to Connor Lynch.
524
00:24:00,034 --> 00:24:02,524
He's got, you know, he is worked in
marketing, I think you know, Connor
525
00:24:02,524 --> 00:24:07,324
in at some point, but he talks about
career as as asset development, right?
526
00:24:07,324 --> 00:24:08,764
Which is really interesting concept.
527
00:24:08,764 --> 00:24:10,324
So, you know, this idea of.
528
00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:14,129
Doing 10 things, but you're
building assets over time,
529
00:24:14,129 --> 00:24:15,299
so you might be, you know.
530
00:24:15,979 --> 00:24:16,789
You have a book, right?
531
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:17,749
You're building an asset there.
532
00:24:17,749 --> 00:24:19,489
You might have a new tool
that you've developed.
533
00:24:19,489 --> 00:24:22,819
You've got a side hustle,
you know, in, in the craft.
534
00:24:22,849 --> 00:24:24,769
You might have a full-time job as well.
535
00:24:24,769 --> 00:24:27,439
You might have some
investments going along too.
536
00:24:27,829 --> 00:24:31,069
And so it all points towards this idea
of the, you know, we talk about the
537
00:24:31,069 --> 00:24:34,159
polymaths, you know, I like to talk
about, you know, the poly career, right?
538
00:24:34,159 --> 00:24:36,079
The poly experience, the poly journey.
539
00:24:36,619 --> 00:24:39,379
If we wanna, if we wanna talk about
that way, and it's the re the reason I
540
00:24:39,379 --> 00:24:42,919
mentioned the hero's journey, and you
kind of alluded to it there, is that.
541
00:24:43,879 --> 00:24:46,879
You know, it used to be a case
where the organizations, we were
542
00:24:46,879 --> 00:24:48,324
heroes, you know, in their journey.
543
00:24:49,459 --> 00:24:52,909
In my view, it is turning the other
way now where, you know, we are the
544
00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:57,379
heroes and you know, organizations are
part of our hero's journey right now.
545
00:24:57,379 --> 00:25:01,339
That's really interesting because
it forces organizations to really
546
00:25:01,339 --> 00:25:04,909
think more and more like designers
and think about how can we actually
547
00:25:05,149 --> 00:25:09,589
impel people like Gaden and Barry to
actually work with us, you know, on
548
00:25:09,589 --> 00:25:13,399
certain projects or on special things,
whatever those are, and I'm, you
549
00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:14,689
know, I'm really interested in that.
550
00:25:14,689 --> 00:25:15,739
I'm interested in.
551
00:25:16,114 --> 00:25:18,094
You know, I haven't had, I don't
have an answer in the book, just,
552
00:25:18,094 --> 00:25:19,384
just anybody's listening out there.
553
00:25:20,224 --> 00:25:27,454
You know, I think there's a level
of maximum level of experience that
554
00:25:27,454 --> 00:25:31,864
an organization can create for an
individual at which point then in an
555
00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:34,834
individual on their own can probably
create, you know, you, you, you love
556
00:25:34,834 --> 00:25:36,814
your S in, so they can probably jump to.
557
00:25:37,564 --> 00:25:39,394
You know, a more experiential career.
558
00:25:39,784 --> 00:25:44,104
So I'm really interested in that blend
and poly stuff that's going on where, you
559
00:25:44,104 --> 00:25:47,284
know, people like ourselves, we might be
working with one organization two days a
560
00:25:47,284 --> 00:25:52,084
week whilst doing a book whilst, you know,
having a be part of a broader network.
561
00:25:52,414 --> 00:25:53,704
You know, and it's really,
really interesting.
562
00:25:53,704 --> 00:25:55,744
I mean, you look at the younger
generations and you start
563
00:25:55,744 --> 00:25:57,094
looking at their love for.
564
00:25:57,469 --> 00:25:59,449
Socialism for collectivism.
565
00:25:59,749 --> 00:26:02,389
So we're seeing a massive growth
in cooperative businesses, you
566
00:26:02,389 --> 00:26:05,659
know, businesses that are owned
by the people who work in them.
567
00:26:06,229 --> 00:26:09,829
And that's all part of this breaking
through this barrier of, you know
568
00:26:10,129 --> 00:26:14,569
the experience, the work experience,
work as experience plateau you
569
00:26:14,569 --> 00:26:15,889
know, into this more broader thing.
570
00:26:15,889 --> 00:26:16,854
So I think it's a really interesting.
571
00:26:18,424 --> 00:26:21,904
Thing that's happening even in Europe,
15 to 20% of us now are working
572
00:26:21,904 --> 00:26:23,374
on our own in some shape or form.
573
00:26:23,974 --> 00:26:25,324
Much, much bigger in America.
574
00:26:26,164 --> 00:26:30,454
And I think new technologies, you
know, new, new types of networks,
575
00:26:30,454 --> 00:26:32,944
super networks, you know, they're
all really gonna drive different
576
00:26:32,944 --> 00:26:39,034
questions around what it means to, to
to work on what it means to work with
577
00:26:39,034 --> 00:26:41,254
an organization versus working for.
578
00:26:41,254 --> 00:26:42,274
And I think if I, to sum up.
579
00:26:43,369 --> 00:26:46,399
Where I believe it's going,
it's width versus four.
580
00:26:46,459 --> 00:26:50,089
You know, it used to be about four working
for, we used to use the phrase working
581
00:26:50,089 --> 00:26:52,429
for now we use the phrase Working with,
582
00:26:53,499 --> 00:26:56,384
Such Aly book for that,
even for the individual.
583
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,749
Wants to do it, wants to jump
the curve, but is maybe a bit
584
00:27:00,749 --> 00:27:02,969
reticent and bit unsure about it.
585
00:27:02,974 --> 00:27:04,289
It helps you actually go well.
586
00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:05,549
This is the way the world's going.
587
00:27:05,879 --> 00:27:06,419
Barry, for
588
00:27:06,504 --> 00:27:06,794
Yeah.
589
00:27:06,809 --> 00:27:11,189
who wanna reach out to you for talks,
keynotes, workshops, to find out more
590
00:27:11,189 --> 00:27:12,599
about the book, where's the best place?
591
00:27:14,179 --> 00:27:16,939
So Barry winkles.com and also on LinkedIn.
592
00:27:17,149 --> 00:27:19,039
You know, we all love
LinkedIn at this stage.
593
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,799
And then book is on Amazon,
it's in Barnes and Noble.
594
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:24,889
It's in all the, all the big
sites as well, you know and also,
595
00:27:24,889 --> 00:27:27,109
and I want to congratulate you
on your Thinkers 50 as well.
596
00:27:27,109 --> 00:27:28,519
Wanna we'll have that on record.
597
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:30,799
'cause I, I know that was a big,
I think it was a big goal of
598
00:27:30,829 --> 00:27:32,839
yours for, for a number of years.
599
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:36,589
So, you know, there's an example of
the hero's journey in action, you know.
600
00:27:37,194 --> 00:27:37,439
I use.
601
00:27:41,074 --> 00:27:42,199
Yeah, well useful.
602
00:27:43,754 --> 00:27:47,429
author of Future World work, how
leaders can create destinations for
603
00:27:47,429 --> 00:27:49,859
talent that excite, entice, and engage.
604
00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:53,009
Chief Strategy Officer at
CPL and Head of the Future of
605
00:27:53,009 --> 00:27:54,759
Work Institute, barry Winkles
606
00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:56,696
Thanks.
607
00:27:57,293 --> 00:27:59,483
Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning.
608
00:27:59,543 --> 00:28:03,173
Inside Learning is brought to you by the
Learnovate Center in Trinity College.
609
00:28:03,173 --> 00:28:07,283
Dublin Learnovate is funded by
Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.
610
00:28:07,403 --> 00:28:11,783
Visit learnovate center.org to find out
more about our research on the science
611
00:28:11,783 --> 00:28:13,373
of learning and the future of work.
