Artificial Physicality (Drew Austin)

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Henry: Talking with Drew Austin.

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We're doing this in person,
which is kind of new for me.

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And maybe for you too.

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Drew: In person podcasting is back!

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Henry: Yeah, I hope so.

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You've had a few newsletter posts
recently about New York as well.

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Drew: I've lived in New York for 10 years.

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My background is in urban planning, so
a lot of what I write about is how the

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digital and physical worlds collide
and overlap and influence each other.

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Watching how much cities have been changed
by all our digital technology, not just in

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the last 10 years, but well before that.

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It's such a fertile place to observe
different phenomena, and it's also very

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unlike the rest of the United States.

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So in a sense, you're not
always learning that much about

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other places if you're here.

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Henry: Everyone knows what's up in
New York, but then we might not know..

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Drew: The internet is so like central
to that, but other media I guess also

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broadcast the activities of New York to
the rest of the country and the world.

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So everybody I joked, has to know
what the weather's like in New York,

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if there's an extreme weather event,
my mom knows if it's snowing here.

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And I've always thought that was
kind of silly, but that's also..

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Whatever the New Yorker like identity is.

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I feel like that's such a big part of it.

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Like you have to hear what I'm doing,
but I don't care what you're doing.

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That's the provincial New Yorker
looking out at the rest of the world.

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But I mean, I don't like to think that
I've internalized that attitude, but

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it is just being here I think gives you
a lot of food for thought if you care

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about cities in the built environment.

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I mean, I'm really happy to be here
and I think it gives me a lot of

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ideas that I wouldn't necessarily
have if I lived somewhere else.

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Henry: I've been here, I guess like six
years, so it's long enough I suppose.

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Yeah.

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I don't think I feel like a New
Yorker either, but there's a certain

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ethos or culture to the city that
you can't get in a lot of places.

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When I first moved, I didn't
want to be here, but then I

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realized how much I hated driving.

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Seems like the only city that you
can just take a subway, right?

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In the US.

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Drew: That's also really important to me.

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I love not owning a car and I will try
to not have a car as long as possible.

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I think I've written about this
a lot over the last year and a

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half since the pandemic started.

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The pandemic is obviously like
a very physical problem in many

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ways, requiring us to isolate
social distance being transmitted

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by people being close together.

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And how it's kind of been both in
the middle of last year and now post

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vaccine, it seems like New York's
like role in, I guess like having

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a dense urban environment or just
being like the American dense city.

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Everything that's happened
with the pandemic seems to be

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this referendum on New York.

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So last year everyone was very eager
to declare that like New York was dead

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and now everyone kind of has like swung
completely to the opposite direction.

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And everyone thinks New York is is
where you where you want to be right

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now because you can do things again.

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And it's funny how in both situations.

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It somehow becomes more about New
York than you would expect and.

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I mean this is also like a very,
again, like, yeah, New York centric

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thing to say, to like assume that
everyone is thinking about New York.

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But it does feel that way sometimes.

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Henry: Maybe it's self-fulfilling
prophecy that maybe that's, I was

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thinking just memes in general,
like the whole GameStop thing.

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Drew: Yeah, and I mean that definitely
seems to be borne out by the fact

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that I, I haven't checked lately, but
just I know that the GameStop stock

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price is still like way, way above.

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If you're talking about technology
and media, a city is a medium, but

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like also the internet is a different
medium where it just happens to

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be one of the primary theaters
where human nature plays out today.

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Like we attribute a lot of things
to the internet that aren't

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really because of the internet.

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There's certain types of human
behavior that are going to

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happen somewhere no matter what.

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And like a city is one place
that they can be observed and

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the internet is another place.

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So like I think a lot of times
we think Facebook is causing

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us to become bad people.

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But really like that way of being bad was
something that we would've found a way

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to do before, and maybe we just haven't
remembered what it used to be like.

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Or we've idealized the past.

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I mean, some people idealize the future.

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That's what's kind of interesting
about technology, thinking of

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it in terms of like the medium
as Marshall McLuhan used it.

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It's just another place
where people do human things.

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Henry: He was emphasizing the medium
isn't just the way, but the environment.

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We are always thinking about how do
we create tools and affect the world

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rather than the world affecting us.

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Drew: Right?

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That statement about every new
technology is an amputation of,

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Henry: He's known for saying like
it's an extension of our body, but

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then we forget the second part of it,
which is like, it can easily do the

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opposite, which is remove our senses
or remove the need for our senses.

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Drew: You can see things
like certain types of memory.

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You can see it in our culture that other
ways of doing those things have atrophied.

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Memory is sort of like a complicated
thing, but right now nobody feels like

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they're not gonna have most of the
information they need at their fingertips.

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So it becomes less urgent.

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It almost feels pedantic to even..

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I, I'm not complaining about that.

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I feel like it can be kind of missing
the point if you complain about the

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fact that nobody has to remember facts
anymore because they can look them up.

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Right?

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Like that's great.

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I'm happy to not have my
head full of useless facts.

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But there again, like you were kind of
alluding to earlier, there's so many like

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knock on effects and a lot of them are.

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Fairly unpredictable and we kind of
realized that there are problems once

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something has already disappeared.

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Henry: All of us can use like
GPS to like get anywhere we want.

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This is great for all of us
individually, but then maybe before

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you would've asked for directions
and that was like a small amount of

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trust for a stranger that we lost.

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Drew: I noticed that pretty quickly
when smartphones became pretty

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widespread 10 years ago or however long.

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One of the first apps I remember
seeing on the iPhone that I thought

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was really amazing and kind of
like the perfect indication of what

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the iPhone could do was Shazam.

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I remember pretty quickly after
people started to use Shazam to

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identify music, that it became less
acceptable to ask somebody what

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was if you went to a restaurant.

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And you liked the music that was playing.

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First of all, it's like, why are you,
it would be, why are you asking me this?

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You can just Shazam it.

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But secondly, a lot of times people
wouldn't even know what was playing

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because they were just playing like a
Pandora or like algorithmic playlist.

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The person both doesn't need to talk to
you about what it is and doesn't know.

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So they've been removed
from the whole process.

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Henry: Yeah.

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Impersonal.

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I guess like they might even feel
offended that you're asking at all.

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'cause like everyone knows at
this point you're supposed to just

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search Shazam it maybe eventually.

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Like there's no name to the music.

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It's just like all Yeah, like real time
generated from like code or something.

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Drew: Which I is in a way it
happening now because so much music

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is made to like be lo-fi basically.

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Yeah.

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Lo-fi or like Monday moods or whatever.

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Yeah.

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And it's kind of not actually
even really meant to be thought

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of as made by a, an artist.

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It's just almost an engineered product.

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But I think that's actually like,
I mean, directions is also like a

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good, it's an opportunity to help
somebody directly, like on the street.

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With music, it feels even more tragic to
me because asking somebody what music they

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chose to play is such a great opportunity
to talk about something interesting

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that you both are excited about.

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And I mean, we can go do that on Twitter
or social media or whatever now, but

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it's just one little thing that has
gone away, and I think it's kind of

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not perceptible to a lot of people.

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Henry: I think one of your posts
mentioned that too, like when

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you're driving with someone?

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Drew: The disappearance of physical media.

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I wrote about that recently.

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How by reorganizing our like media
archives in this completely digital

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format, we don't have the same ways
to like show each other what we

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like as you could, if you had all
your CDs on a shelf or all your

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records on a shelf at your house.

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Most people who like books still have
bookshelves, although that's also

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kind of going in the same direction
with ebook and stuff like that.

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Again, there's a way of talking about this
that can feel like it's kind of trivial.

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How much do you really need?

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And I actually am like, happy to have
more space in my apartment that's

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not taken up by huge piles of CDs.

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But it is like something that I don't
think that for my generation, there's

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an adequate replacement for it.

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And I mentioned in the post part of
it's just that I've gotten older,

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so like music and showing off what
music you like as you as central to

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my life as it would've been when I
was in my early twenties or teenager.

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It's still like, you know, a way
to learn a lot about somebody.

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Henry: Yeah, we're in my room.

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It's like what's in here?

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Yeah.

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Maybe.

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Well, I put the books in a box, but
otherwise what are we showing off anymore?

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Yeah.

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And maybe that if it's all
online, it's like, you could have

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just looked it up or something.

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Drew: Well, I think social media or
there's, there's an effort to kind of give

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us artificial ways to recreate those types
of things in purely digital environments.

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Like in theory, social media
should be a way to like.

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Show everybody else what you are.

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But the way that it's done in those
media are like, it kind of just

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feels like everyone's shouting
at each other at the same time.

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So you're thinking a lot more about
what you're putting out than what other

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people are are showing or like, I mean,
I think actually an interesting example

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of this is NFTs, the technologies
for displaying your NFTs, which

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are still pretty rudimentary, but.

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I think that's actually filling
the void of something like

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having a record collection that
is a sign of like who you are.

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I'm not that deep in NFTs.

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I don't own any, so I can't imagine using
an NFT to like show anything about myself.

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But I know that people seem to be
trying to do that and are probably

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getting some value out of that.

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And what, what's interesting to me about
that is at some point it feels like the

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last era of the internet or of computers
was kind of eliminating all these things

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from the physical world and putting
them in pure information formats online.

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And now we've completely finished that
process and now we're trying to re

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recreate these physical environments that
we've stripped of all of their purpose.

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Henry: Right.

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Maybe Zoom is like the
epitome of all this.

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So there's all these like gather, like
these spatial apps where you can chat in

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a video game or people are using video
games to have parties or birthdays.

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Drew: Even clubhouse I
thought was pretty spatial.

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I mean, I audio is inherently more
spatial than a lot of the visual

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environments we have on the internet.

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But the way that like you would
drift from room to room, it actually

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did seem to kind of simulate.

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Being at some social gathering or a
place in its own kind of simplified way.

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A lot of what the physical world imposes
on us is these constraints which are

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very fundamental to life in meet space.

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Like I have to travel across
distance to get from my house to

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your house to record this podcast.

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And kind of the magic of technology is
that it eliminates those constraints.

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So it's interesting that we
feel the need to reproduce them.

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It may be suggests to me that we've
sort of given these digital technologies

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too many chores to do or too many tasks
that maybe not all of them are best

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done online or in purely digital forms.

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If we find something lacking
when everything is online it

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means that we've moved too many
things out of the physical world.

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But that's a, I mean,
that's a huge, I don't know.

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I feel like that's all.

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You could write a whole book about it.

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Henry: On a website, it's like
actually too fast on the server side.

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So they purposely make it slower so that
it feels like something's being done,

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but in reality it's actually an instant.

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They need people to perceive that
like work is quote unquote being done.

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00:11:43,243 --> 00:11:45,913
Drew: Yeah that's a great example of that.

227
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And like, it's disorienting
if that goes away.

228
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Like your actual sensory
cues are like missing.

229
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You need some of that.

230
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Henry: I don't think you would
wanna have to walk to a Zoom room.

231
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You still would just teleport.

232
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We always recreate.

233
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Yeah.

234
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The same thing in the new medium
and we can't help but do that.

235
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We don't really know how to
imagine something really different.

236
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Drew: Yeah, assuming that Clubhouse is
not at all what it was six months ago.

237
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I think that was one of its big downfalls
was that it took most of the social

238
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media that we use is asynchronous
and it imposed a synchronous quality

239
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on how we communicate digitally.

240
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And it only worked because it was
this special moment in human history

241
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when everybody was isolated and at
home and had a lot of free time.

242
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So every evening when people
weren't working anymore, like

243
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they would all be on Clubhouse.

244
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But you, I think you could, and
you saw it kind of start to wane

245
00:12:40,793 --> 00:12:44,143
once people started going back out
and getting vaccinated and stuff.

246
00:12:44,203 --> 00:12:47,263
So I think it was an unnecessary
constraint that we've already

247
00:12:47,263 --> 00:12:50,713
kind of figured out ways to
bypass using the internet.

248
00:12:50,713 --> 00:12:54,633
Twitter is really interesting because it
feels like it's happening in real time.

249
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But it's actually a bunch of people
who just posted and are probably

250
00:12:58,143 --> 00:13:01,263
not even looking at their screen
right now at a very granular level.

251
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Like most of the people that you
see in your Twitter feed aren't

252
00:13:05,263 --> 00:13:07,963
actually on Twitter right now.

253
00:13:08,023 --> 00:13:09,673
They're probably like
doing something else.

254
00:13:09,703 --> 00:13:12,973
It's pretty clear if you have an
opportunity to find out how many

255
00:13:12,973 --> 00:13:14,293
people are online at one time.

256
00:13:14,293 --> 00:13:18,853
There are also a lot of eyeballs
on the screen at any given moment.

257
00:13:19,393 --> 00:13:19,693
Henry: Yeah.

258
00:13:19,693 --> 00:13:22,663
I found myself like not
using it much anymore.

259
00:13:22,753 --> 00:13:25,513
Sacasas was saying how like
there's no way to be silent.

260
00:13:25,993 --> 00:13:26,083
Mm-Hmm.

261
00:13:26,323 --> 00:13:26,773
Online.

262
00:13:27,153 --> 00:13:30,243
Drew: And there's no like
silence paired with presence.

263
00:13:30,243 --> 00:13:35,853
It's like people would notice if you,
if you were silent and on Twitter, then

264
00:13:35,913 --> 00:13:37,683
it would be perceived as an absence.

265
00:13:37,683 --> 00:13:38,913
It would be like, where did Henry go?

266
00:13:39,333 --> 00:13:43,873
But in the physical world, you can be
silent and present at the same time.

267
00:13:43,873 --> 00:13:46,453
And you know, we could be
sitting in this room together,

268
00:13:46,453 --> 00:13:48,253
not talking, and there would be.

269
00:13:49,093 --> 00:13:52,573
Some benefit of shared human
contact there, even though there

270
00:13:52,573 --> 00:13:55,153
was no quote unquote content.

271
00:13:55,423 --> 00:13:58,513
Henry: So this reminds me
of a game that I play a lot.

272
00:13:58,543 --> 00:13:59,443
It's called the Mind.

273
00:13:59,473 --> 00:14:01,183
You're supposed to be silent
when you're playing it.

274
00:14:01,618 --> 00:14:03,688
In short, it's the numbers
one through a hundred.

275
00:14:03,688 --> 00:14:04,498
It's a card game.

276
00:14:04,668 --> 00:14:06,828
And you need to play the
numbers in ascending order.

277
00:14:06,858 --> 00:14:09,748
So like 1, 5, 23, and up.

278
00:14:10,198 --> 00:14:11,458
And it's a cooperative game..

279
00:14:11,528 --> 00:14:14,258
The trick is that you're not
allowed to communicate what

280
00:14:14,348 --> 00:14:15,698
number you have or anything.

281
00:14:15,728 --> 00:14:17,168
So you can only use like body language.

282
00:14:17,268 --> 00:14:20,508
And so that's a great game to
show nonverbal communication.

283
00:14:20,558 --> 00:14:22,353
Drew: Yeah, no, I love stuff like that.

284
00:14:22,353 --> 00:14:26,503
And I think it becomes, I also think
it's sort of like almost a trapping of

285
00:14:26,503 --> 00:14:30,553
knowing somebody better or being closer
to a friend or someone in your family

286
00:14:30,553 --> 00:14:35,653
that you can feel comfortable sharing
silence with them while together?

287
00:14:35,653 --> 00:14:39,223
I think that's something that
we don't really feel with

288
00:14:39,223 --> 00:14:40,513
people we don't know as well.

289
00:14:40,543 --> 00:14:43,773
You just have to keep filling the
silence, but as the relationship

290
00:14:43,773 --> 00:14:46,353
deepens, it becomes more Okay.

291
00:14:46,653 --> 00:14:50,013
Which I think is very telling
of the value of silence, that

292
00:14:50,013 --> 00:14:53,193
we kind of get more comfortable
with it as we know people better.

293
00:14:53,823 --> 00:14:55,593
Henry: Is that even something we want to.

294
00:14:56,193 --> 00:14:59,793
Introduce into digital space,
or is it just like not a thing?

295
00:15:00,273 --> 00:15:03,393
There's live streams and discords
where people join and they just

296
00:15:03,393 --> 00:15:05,493
study together and nobody is talking.

297
00:15:06,153 --> 00:15:10,653
Drew: I think in a way actually
that, um, the GM meme is kind of

298
00:15:10,653 --> 00:15:13,413
that too, even though it is a thing.

299
00:15:13,413 --> 00:15:17,163
But because it's just the same
thing being said over and over

300
00:15:17,163 --> 00:15:18,783
again, it kind of loses its.

301
00:15:19,488 --> 00:15:23,958
It's content and it just becomes
this statement between two

302
00:15:23,958 --> 00:15:26,148
people without any real message.

303
00:15:26,178 --> 00:15:27,048
Like a nod.

304
00:15:27,588 --> 00:15:29,988
Henry: Yeah, that sounds like the YO app.

305
00:15:29,988 --> 00:15:32,568
Drew: It's just that reappearing.

306
00:15:32,628 --> 00:15:35,508
I mean, I've seen it in like discord
rooms where everyone's just saying

307
00:15:36,078 --> 00:15:39,378
GM and that's the only message
that's being exchanged in the room.

308
00:15:39,468 --> 00:15:42,588
And obviously the app
that was made recently.

309
00:15:42,618 --> 00:15:44,433
But all that stuff, I
think it speaks to some.

310
00:15:45,408 --> 00:15:47,088
I mean, that's also just kind of a joke.

311
00:15:47,118 --> 00:15:51,798
I can't really like assess whether it
speaks to some deeper need, but it does

312
00:15:51,798 --> 00:15:56,358
seem to be like kind of an example of
something that's not like content in

313
00:15:56,358 --> 00:15:57,918
the way that we normally experience it.

314
00:15:58,248 --> 00:16:00,798
Henry: Should we talk about
your post on Real Life?

315
00:16:01,098 --> 00:16:02,658
The title is called Worn Out.

316
00:16:02,821 --> 00:16:06,511
Drew: I wrote a piece for Real Life
a month or two ago, so I became

317
00:16:06,511 --> 00:16:10,411
really interested in this idea of
fashion as something that has a

318
00:16:10,411 --> 00:16:13,411
relationship to the public space
and there's this reputation of.

319
00:16:14,086 --> 00:16:20,116
People in the Bay Area or Silicon Valley
or in tech not dressing well and obviously

320
00:16:20,116 --> 00:16:23,776
in like New York would be the opposite
end of the spectrum to that which kind

321
00:16:23,776 --> 00:16:29,106
of embodies everything that the Bay Area
is not Culturally, people in New York

322
00:16:30,246 --> 00:16:35,586
are known for dressing well or trying to
dress well or caring about that aspect

323
00:16:35,586 --> 00:16:39,636
of their self presentation, and I thought
it was really interesting to kind of

324
00:16:39,636 --> 00:16:41,706
explore maybe the deeper reasons why.

325
00:16:42,756 --> 00:16:45,306
People in tech don't seem to value that.

326
00:16:45,306 --> 00:16:48,816
And my hunch or my hypothesis
that I explored and argued in this

327
00:16:48,816 --> 00:16:54,036
piece is that fashion is something
with positive externalities

328
00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:55,566
that enhances the public realm.

329
00:16:55,566 --> 00:16:59,796
And if you don't care about that,
then you don't care about fashion.

330
00:16:59,826 --> 00:17:02,616
Now, I think there's another way of
looking at fashion, and I mentioned

331
00:17:02,616 --> 00:17:07,576
this in the piece, that it is a sort of
vain and self-aggrandizing practice so

332
00:17:07,576 --> 00:17:12,991
that people will think I am great, but
I actually don't think of it that way.

333
00:17:13,081 --> 00:17:16,171
This is kind of a great example of what
I was saying about living in New York.

334
00:17:16,171 --> 00:17:21,121
I notice just being on the street
and how interestingly people dress is

335
00:17:21,121 --> 00:17:22,561
something that we all benefit from.

336
00:17:22,611 --> 00:17:27,481
If you dress interestingly, if you have
like a flashy style, then it kind of makes

337
00:17:27,481 --> 00:17:29,611
the whole street scape feel more vital.

338
00:17:29,611 --> 00:17:32,251
And when people like think that
New York is an interesting place

339
00:17:32,251 --> 00:17:33,841
to visit, that's a huge part of it.

340
00:17:34,186 --> 00:17:37,636
So the people watching, half of why it's
interesting is what people are wearing.

341
00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:41,926
My argument in the piece was that
tech isn't interested in creating

342
00:17:41,926 --> 00:17:45,586
those kinds of positive externalities,
and they're not really interested in

343
00:17:46,066 --> 00:17:48,256
enhancing the physical public realm.

344
00:17:48,286 --> 00:17:52,216
And a lot of the environments that we
spend all of our time in online seem

345
00:17:52,216 --> 00:17:57,676
to be these digital simul acra of
public space that don't actually have

346
00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:01,696
some of the necessary qualities of
public space, one of which would be.

347
00:18:02,791 --> 00:18:07,501
Like the fact that there is a commons,
like a shared experience of things

348
00:18:07,861 --> 00:18:13,381
that's not sort of monetized or turned
into data that somebody benefits from.

349
00:18:13,981 --> 00:18:16,501
I'm curious what you thought
about that, or if you have any.

350
00:18:16,501 --> 00:18:17,851
Henry: I was just thinking about myself.

351
00:18:17,881 --> 00:18:19,831
I have to admit, I never
really cared about it.

352
00:18:19,951 --> 00:18:22,351
And then moving here, it made me feel..

353
00:18:22,771 --> 00:18:24,091
Well, I guess I still don't care about it.

354
00:18:24,091 --> 00:18:27,601
It's funny and yeah, it's like
we're both just being to ourselves.

355
00:18:27,631 --> 00:18:31,411
Maybe it's the same thought of
science is objective and then saying

356
00:18:31,411 --> 00:18:35,221
that, oh, my non view of close is
objective, but that's also its own view.

357
00:18:35,251 --> 00:18:36,241
There's no like, it's a statement.

358
00:18:36,241 --> 00:18:36,511
Yeah.

359
00:18:36,511 --> 00:18:37,591
There's no non view.

360
00:18:37,591 --> 00:18:38,551
It's just the tech.

361
00:18:39,391 --> 00:18:41,641
Attire or whatever is a thing, right?

362
00:18:41,881 --> 00:18:42,331
Drew: Yeah.

363
00:18:42,421 --> 00:18:46,711
And you are saying, I never
cared about what I wore, and

364
00:18:46,711 --> 00:18:48,121
then in some ways still don't?

365
00:18:48,121 --> 00:18:51,901
I probably dress nicer than I did
before I moved to New York, just

366
00:18:51,901 --> 00:18:59,521
because the bar is higher for like,
what, I guess like what's acceptable.

367
00:18:59,521 --> 00:19:03,991
But I think about it more now, and
I acknowledge that I gather a lot of

368
00:19:03,991 --> 00:19:08,371
information about other people by what
they're wearing, not in a judgmental way.

369
00:19:08,371 --> 00:19:13,381
Just there's a lot that you kind of
gather right off the bat if you see

370
00:19:13,381 --> 00:19:15,871
somebody and see how they're dressed.

371
00:19:15,871 --> 00:19:20,281
And I, I've come to like, not
only be aware of that, but

372
00:19:20,281 --> 00:19:22,081
to actually appreciate it.

373
00:19:22,081 --> 00:19:25,051
I think it's just really fascinating
to see what you get, what you

374
00:19:25,051 --> 00:19:28,081
learned about somebody in that way.

375
00:19:28,351 --> 00:19:31,411
And I don't think it's
about a competition.

376
00:19:31,441 --> 00:19:34,561
I don't think people are trying, there
are situations where that's true, but

377
00:19:35,371 --> 00:19:38,221
it's not like someone's trying to be
better than everybody else in the room.

378
00:19:38,221 --> 00:19:42,451
I think there is just pure
self-expression happening in many cases.

379
00:19:43,241 --> 00:19:47,291
Henry: Doesn't mean we should dismiss
thinking about the whole industry of

380
00:19:47,291 --> 00:19:50,301
fashion, because you thought that some
people were trying to show off, right?

381
00:19:50,451 --> 00:19:50,841
Drew: Right.

382
00:19:51,091 --> 00:19:55,621
There's a consumerist element to it
that is unavoidable, but that I think

383
00:19:55,621 --> 00:19:57,451
afflicts everything at this point.

384
00:19:57,836 --> 00:20:01,756
Henry: Basically just being more aware of
things that you didn't care about before.

385
00:20:01,816 --> 00:20:07,576
Drew: Maybe because I'm not an example
of a person that dresses in a flashy way.

386
00:20:07,576 --> 00:20:11,866
I almost think it was like more
interesting for someone like me to

387
00:20:11,866 --> 00:20:16,216
write it because if, if like you or
I are appreciating this behavior that

388
00:20:16,216 --> 00:20:20,626
we don't fully take advantage of, I
think it attest to the power of it.

389
00:20:20,626 --> 00:20:22,576
Like, I'm glad someone's doing that.

390
00:20:22,846 --> 00:20:24,286
It's not necessarily me.

391
00:20:24,706 --> 00:20:24,766
Yeah.

392
00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:31,696
But like with any public benefit or
public good, everyone is glad to see.

393
00:20:31,696 --> 00:20:31,756
Yeah.

394
00:20:32,281 --> 00:20:35,761
That it exists, even if they're
not all, it's rare that people

395
00:20:35,761 --> 00:20:39,601
are equally contributing to it,
but everybody benefits from it.

396
00:20:39,601 --> 00:20:45,661
And I think that's important in
healthy societies to have that dynamic.

397
00:20:45,961 --> 00:20:46,501
Henry: Yeah.

398
00:20:46,711 --> 00:20:51,511
I guess going back to like Commons, Andy
Matus kind of post, and he mentioned

399
00:20:51,511 --> 00:20:57,151
like video games being a public good,
but specifically the UI of a video game.

400
00:20:57,751 --> 00:21:01,381
So I guess once a video game comes
out, everyone can just copy that ui.

401
00:21:01,681 --> 00:21:03,271
Remember the game 2048?

402
00:21:03,731 --> 00:21:06,341
That was like a copy of something else,
which is also a copy of something else.

403
00:21:06,391 --> 00:21:09,691
Drew: All of culture I think could
be said to be a version of that.

404
00:21:09,691 --> 00:21:15,931
Like music is often clearly, even
great music is clearly deriving

405
00:21:15,961 --> 00:21:18,691
tons of its characteristics
from what's come before it.

406
00:21:19,121 --> 00:21:22,211
Any art, I would say there's
a version of that happening.

407
00:21:23,171 --> 00:21:28,151
It's very natural and it's what we
should want because once somebody

408
00:21:28,151 --> 00:21:32,141
comes up with something that
works, everyone else can adopt it.

409
00:21:32,741 --> 00:21:35,591
Henry: The style of it, it's
like UI is just fashion of

410
00:21:35,591 --> 00:21:37,421
like software or something.

411
00:21:37,421 --> 00:21:39,491
Maybe tech cares too much about function.

412
00:21:39,921 --> 00:21:40,041
Drew: Yeah.

413
00:21:40,041 --> 00:21:42,021
I think that's actually a
really good way of putting it.

414
00:21:42,051 --> 00:21:45,491
This connects back to architecture because
in modernist architecture there was

415
00:21:45,491 --> 00:21:47,441
this idea, of form following function.

416
00:21:47,441 --> 00:21:49,691
The shape of something or the
form of something should be a

417
00:21:49,691 --> 00:21:51,711
pure expression of its purpose.

418
00:21:51,991 --> 00:21:55,111
There was an idea that if something
was perfectly engineered to fulfill

419
00:21:55,111 --> 00:21:59,251
its function, then there was an
inevitable way they would have to look.

420
00:21:59,251 --> 00:22:04,681
And modernism kind of contradicted itself
by not actually adhering to its own ideas.

421
00:22:05,081 --> 00:22:09,341
Because a lot of modernist architecture
was just this like style that kind of got

422
00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:15,746
applied to everything in a non-functional
way, but the idea was pretty compelling.

423
00:22:15,746 --> 00:22:20,396
And I think I see a lot of that in, in
tech and how, how software is approached

424
00:22:20,396 --> 00:22:25,766
that if, you know, if something's not
contributing to the functional purpose

425
00:22:25,766 --> 00:22:31,346
of the software, then it's excess and
it doesn't really need to be there.

426
00:22:32,381 --> 00:22:36,416
It's like a completely different
medium to think about that in,

427
00:22:36,416 --> 00:22:41,336
because code is inherently functional
and it's not really visible.

428
00:22:41,336 --> 00:22:44,546
So like aesthetics get layered on top.

429
00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:48,116
And there might be a example
of that that I'm like missing.

430
00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:53,396
But I think aesthetics always seem to
come like after the, the underlying code.

431
00:22:53,401 --> 00:22:56,611
Again, with crypto, I think some of
that may have like converged again.

432
00:22:56,611 --> 00:23:01,351
The actual act of doing certain things
in code is not necessarily functional

433
00:23:01,351 --> 00:23:04,521
except to like express some point or idea.

434
00:23:05,331 --> 00:23:05,451
Henry: Yeah.

435
00:23:05,451 --> 00:23:08,511
My friend Angus, he has a book
called, like if Hemingway wrote

436
00:23:08,511 --> 00:23:10,356
JavaScript, it's really cool.

437
00:23:10,576 --> 00:23:12,921
He just implements algorithms
and then he'll write them in

438
00:23:12,921 --> 00:23:16,071
different authors like Hemingway or
Shakespeare like, and he'll have like

439
00:23:16,071 --> 00:23:17,151
different ways of writing comments.

440
00:23:17,151 --> 00:23:20,046
So it's like showing you
how aesthetic coding can be.

441
00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:21,216
It's also just writing.

442
00:23:21,266 --> 00:23:24,176
One of the first things I worked
on was what's called a code linter.

443
00:23:24,896 --> 00:23:27,146
And you know, like linting your
clothes, like get off like,

444
00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:28,796
you know, hair or whatever.

445
00:23:28,826 --> 00:23:31,886
And so we have that, which is
essentially just spell check for

446
00:23:31,916 --> 00:23:33,716
coding, but it's only aesthetic.

447
00:23:33,716 --> 00:23:35,006
So it's like you need a space here.

448
00:23:35,006 --> 00:23:36,956
You, you need to change
your name and your variable.

449
00:23:37,466 --> 00:23:40,286
It's really helpful on a team
where you have like a hundred

450
00:23:40,286 --> 00:23:41,486
people, you wanna make sure that.

451
00:23:41,811 --> 00:23:42,921
Everyone's on the same page.

452
00:23:42,921 --> 00:23:43,881
So we have a standard.

453
00:23:44,301 --> 00:23:46,791
But the problem with standards
is that it removes the ability

454
00:23:46,791 --> 00:23:48,411
of people to express themselves.

455
00:23:48,411 --> 00:23:52,641
And so some people might protest
against the use of a linter, at

456
00:23:52,641 --> 00:23:53,751
least on your personal project.

457
00:23:53,761 --> 00:23:54,961
Just let me do whatever I want.

458
00:23:55,321 --> 00:23:56,131
Drew: Well, that's really interesting.

459
00:23:56,131 --> 00:24:01,111
And I, as a non programmer, it's
interesting to me that there is, you

460
00:24:01,111 --> 00:24:04,231
know, like that there would be like
a desire for expression just in the

461
00:24:04,231 --> 00:24:07,381
way the code is written and like
how it raises the question of how

462
00:24:07,381 --> 00:24:10,171
much flexibility should there be?

463
00:24:10,801 --> 00:24:15,121
I was thinking as you were describing
that there, it's code is weird in that

464
00:24:15,121 --> 00:24:16,681
you consume it two different ways.

465
00:24:16,681 --> 00:24:20,161
You can actually read the code
as it's written or you encounter

466
00:24:20,161 --> 00:24:24,781
it as a user who is experiencing
the, the results of the code.

467
00:24:24,781 --> 00:24:29,191
And like the latter is obviously much
more common and something you don't really

468
00:24:30,031 --> 00:24:34,581
need any literacy in engineering to do.

469
00:24:34,581 --> 00:24:39,021
It's actually the purpose of it to be
something that people can engage with

470
00:24:39,021 --> 00:24:41,031
without understanding the underlying code.

471
00:24:41,041 --> 00:24:44,131
But I don't, I guess there's a
version of that with reading a book.

472
00:24:44,131 --> 00:24:49,591
Like you could read the book or you
could experience the second order

473
00:24:49,591 --> 00:24:55,921
effects of the book as it disseminates
through the world and affects culture.

474
00:24:56,041 --> 00:24:58,381
But with code, I think
that loop is much tighter.

475
00:24:58,411 --> 00:25:02,521
The relationship between what's
written and what the effect of

476
00:25:02,551 --> 00:25:07,151
what was written is a very direct
and predictable relationship.

477
00:25:07,331 --> 00:25:11,651
Henry: I also think about how people
create programming languages themselves.

478
00:25:11,921 --> 00:25:11,981
Yeah.

479
00:25:12,011 --> 00:25:14,771
And usually language design is top down.

480
00:25:14,771 --> 00:25:15,281
That makes sense.

481
00:25:15,281 --> 00:25:19,361
You have a group of experts that
kind of decide what goes in and

482
00:25:19,361 --> 00:25:21,311
our tool in a way, democratizes.

483
00:25:22,391 --> 00:25:25,271
That design because they
can make their own things.

484
00:25:25,301 --> 00:25:28,931
Then maybe propose them to the committee
and then they'll eventually get included

485
00:25:28,931 --> 00:25:31,331
in the standard, even though that might
take like three years or something.

486
00:25:31,391 --> 00:25:35,111
That gets into this whole philosophy
around how do you design a language

487
00:25:35,111 --> 00:25:37,031
and what's good for people?

488
00:25:37,091 --> 00:25:40,421
Should there be one way of doing things or
should they be many ways of doing things?

489
00:25:40,451 --> 00:25:44,081
And so there's this guy, Larry
Wall, and he's the creator of Pearl.

490
00:25:44,426 --> 00:25:44,606
Okay.

491
00:25:44,606 --> 00:25:47,786
And he gave this talk, like he
said, that Pearl is the first

492
00:25:47,786 --> 00:25:49,616
postmodern programming language.

493
00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:49,946
Wow.

494
00:25:50,006 --> 00:25:52,376
Which I think is an interesting
concept from a functional

495
00:25:52,376 --> 00:25:53,426
utilitarian point of view.

496
00:25:53,426 --> 00:25:55,316
It's like, yeah, you should only
have one way of doing something

497
00:25:55,346 --> 00:25:56,486
'cause you're gonna confuse people.

498
00:25:57,126 --> 00:25:59,571
Drew: And there's also the
idea that the best way is the

499
00:25:59,571 --> 00:26:01,311
way that you've arrived at.

500
00:26:01,491 --> 00:26:01,581
Yeah.

501
00:26:01,581 --> 00:26:04,011
And so why would you not, why
would you do something that's

502
00:26:04,011 --> 00:26:05,211
not the best way of doing it?

503
00:26:05,301 --> 00:26:05,661
Henry: Mm-Hmm.

504
00:26:06,121 --> 00:26:09,391
Drew: But then there's hubris
in that because who can like.

505
00:26:10,141 --> 00:26:12,781
Why would you assume that you
found the best way to do something?

506
00:26:12,841 --> 00:26:16,861
I mean, I understand the desire to believe
that, but it's unlikely to be true,

507
00:26:17,401 --> 00:26:19,171
Henry: Even from the creator themselves.

508
00:26:19,321 --> 00:26:22,321
Like why do you think, just 'cause
you made it, that you're gonna also

509
00:26:22,321 --> 00:26:23,941
be the best person to determine that?

510
00:26:24,041 --> 00:26:27,941
Cause Illich, he talks a lot about how
standardizing, like I think it was a

511
00:26:27,941 --> 00:26:33,161
Spanish or Chinese was like a way for the
government to like impose on their people.

512
00:26:33,551 --> 00:26:35,111
Through programs, like,
okay, that's kind of true.

513
00:26:35,141 --> 00:26:37,481
You are making them
think in a certain way.

514
00:26:37,541 --> 00:26:40,121
It might not even be intentionally,
but it does that just by

515
00:26:40,121 --> 00:26:42,041
limiting what they can express.

516
00:26:42,041 --> 00:26:42,101
Drew: Yeah.

517
00:26:42,101 --> 00:26:47,981
George Orwell has written about that too,
how it's kind of a totalitarian action.

518
00:26:47,981 --> 00:26:49,691
I guess 1984 has that.

519
00:26:49,906 --> 00:26:52,906
The double speak and all the
weird language in the book.

520
00:26:52,986 --> 00:26:55,956
He's written essays about that too
and just how it shrinks the range of

521
00:26:55,956 --> 00:27:00,156
thoughts that people can have if you
reduce the options in the language.

522
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,766
Henry: Yeah, and I think that
it speaks to the idea that

523
00:27:02,766 --> 00:27:04,386
there's only one value in tech.

524
00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:06,296
Which is like ability and efficiency.

525
00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:08,276
But you're assuming that
there's no other metric.

526
00:27:08,299 --> 00:27:09,829
Drew: Do you think that's
changing at all though?

527
00:27:09,829 --> 00:27:12,229
I feel like I see more evidence now that.

528
00:27:13,024 --> 00:27:14,764
There are those other value systems.

529
00:27:14,764 --> 00:27:17,914
Maybe it's just because I'm more
plugged into the communities of

530
00:27:17,914 --> 00:27:23,254
people that are working on things
than I was like 10 or 20 years ago.

531
00:27:23,254 --> 00:27:26,614
Henry: People are more
wary of tech values.

532
00:27:26,614 --> 00:27:27,964
It's a very broad statement.

533
00:27:28,024 --> 00:27:32,249
I guess my concern, that's someone
that's sympathetic to it, bringing in old

534
00:27:32,254 --> 00:27:34,414
values back into the new medium, right?

535
00:27:34,474 --> 00:27:37,174
It's so easy to do that by accident.

536
00:27:37,184 --> 00:27:41,114
The artifacts that we make, embody
our values whether we want to or not.

537
00:27:41,424 --> 00:27:45,114
If you have a different mental model
of how the code works than them,

538
00:27:45,264 --> 00:27:47,754
that's why you can't understand it,
because they are thinking from a

539
00:27:47,754 --> 00:27:52,644
certain viewpoint, and it's like if
you can buy into that viewpoint, it'll

540
00:27:52,704 --> 00:27:56,754
be easier to go through the, say the
tutorial or whatever on how it works.

541
00:27:57,294 --> 00:28:00,444
Instead of just pretending that
like, code is code, you know, people

542
00:28:00,444 --> 00:28:03,174
say it all the time, unless you
understand why they said something.

543
00:28:03,174 --> 00:28:06,294
You're just doing what I, I
call like archeology, trying

544
00:28:06,294 --> 00:28:07,524
to figure out like a mystery.

545
00:28:07,524 --> 00:28:08,664
Like how do they do this?

546
00:28:09,204 --> 00:28:09,834
Drew: That's actually..

547
00:28:10,074 --> 00:28:15,444
As someone who, what you just described,
I would say I've dabbled in coding, but

548
00:28:15,454 --> 00:28:20,704
I definitely am no expert and, certainly
don't do it professionally at all.

549
00:28:20,734 --> 00:28:22,384
Actually, that's not even totally true.

550
00:28:22,384 --> 00:28:26,294
But, the way you're describing it,
I feel like the farther you are from

551
00:28:26,294 --> 00:28:29,294
it or the less you understand it,
the more you would not realize that.

552
00:28:29,493 --> 00:28:34,263
If you don't have any understanding
of coding as I don't, relative to

553
00:28:34,293 --> 00:28:39,033
someone like you, it seems from the
outside more like there's likely to

554
00:28:39,033 --> 00:28:44,062
only be one way of doing things because
it's kind of perceived as this super

555
00:28:44,062 --> 00:28:48,922
rational system for creating things
that do things in very predictable ways.

556
00:28:48,972 --> 00:28:53,802
The more I've learned about how code
actually works, the more I've come to

557
00:28:53,802 --> 00:28:55,572
understand what you just described.

558
00:28:55,572 --> 00:28:58,679
And it's much more of an
art than I ever realized.

559
00:28:58,689 --> 00:29:02,289
Henry: One way of thinking about it
is just trying to be aware of the fact

560
00:29:02,289 --> 00:29:04,119
that like everything can have bugs.

561
00:29:04,309 --> 00:29:07,789
My code can have bugs, like my
program, but then the browser that

562
00:29:07,789 --> 00:29:10,009
I use can have bugs, which it does.

563
00:29:10,429 --> 00:29:12,259
And then even the program language itself.

564
00:29:12,439 --> 00:29:13,399
Yeah, that can have bugs.

565
00:29:13,399 --> 00:29:15,979
And then the CPU that you use can
have bugs like all the way down.

566
00:29:16,369 --> 00:29:17,479
So it's not that predictable.

567
00:29:17,509 --> 00:29:21,859
So they have to have error correcting,
like built in to be resilient to like

568
00:29:21,859 --> 00:29:24,939
these kinds of random fluctuations
of electricity or something.

569
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:27,339
Drew: I like that you said the word
resilient because I do feel like

570
00:29:27,339 --> 00:29:31,329
resilient is another word for there
being multiple ways to do something.

571
00:29:31,385 --> 00:29:35,165
And that's kind of necessary for something
to actually be resilient, whether

572
00:29:35,855 --> 00:29:38,485
in a system like a city or in code.

573
00:29:38,485 --> 00:29:42,595
I think it's a generalizable
quality of resilience.

574
00:29:42,745 --> 00:29:45,115
I mean, modernism, again,
that was the problem with it.

575
00:29:45,115 --> 00:29:47,815
It kind of connects back to that
idea of one way of doing things.

576
00:29:47,815 --> 00:29:52,285
I feel like a lot of the things that get
grouped under the term modernism, a system

577
00:29:52,285 --> 00:29:59,605
that's completely totalized, that has one
way of working and things that have more

578
00:29:59,605 --> 00:30:04,229
flexibility and more resilience built
into them, have stood the test of time.

579
00:30:04,229 --> 00:30:07,469
And I mean modernism as a
20th century phenomenon.

580
00:30:07,469 --> 00:30:08,879
I think it kind of had its moment.

581
00:30:08,909 --> 00:30:11,099
Henry: For maintenance and any
kind of infrastructure you're

582
00:30:11,099 --> 00:30:13,904
gonna want that resilience,
that's literally the whole point.

583
00:30:13,954 --> 00:30:17,164
Drew: Over and over again that,
that you want things to be resilient

584
00:30:17,404 --> 00:30:24,094
and only in like temporary periods
of time where people forget about

585
00:30:24,304 --> 00:30:25,534
what's gone wrong in the past.

586
00:30:25,534 --> 00:30:29,374
Does it become possible to like
produce something that's not resilient?

587
00:30:29,914 --> 00:30:33,004
I mean, honestly, we're probably
in another one of those periods.

588
00:30:33,004 --> 00:30:35,734
I think we're always in a
period like that in some.

589
00:30:36,889 --> 00:30:41,569
Aspect of life where like something's
being over-engineered to be kind of too

590
00:30:41,569 --> 00:30:47,469
rigid or too narrow and we ultimately pay
the price and we learn too late that like

591
00:30:47,619 --> 00:30:49,179
we should have made it more resilient.

592
00:30:49,179 --> 00:30:52,609
And then we learn the lesson in
that space, but then we make the

593
00:30:52,609 --> 00:30:53,809
same mistake in a different domain.

594
00:30:53,809 --> 00:30:54,049
Yeah.

595
00:30:54,099 --> 00:30:57,279
I also think one of the best and
like most time honored sources of

596
00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:03,129
resilience in different areas of
society is just more people having

597
00:31:03,129 --> 00:31:06,579
agency and more people being empowered.

598
00:31:06,579 --> 00:31:11,709
And instead of having a more top-down
system, having a lot of that agency

599
00:31:11,709 --> 00:31:15,499
sort of at the lower levels, what I
think you could see that in terms of

600
00:31:15,499 --> 00:31:19,129
like communities, small businesses, the
more of those types of things you have,

601
00:31:19,969 --> 00:31:22,819
the more resilient society usually is.

602
00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:28,549
The more consolidation happens, the
more likely it is to be not resilient.

603
00:31:28,669 --> 00:31:29,719
Henry: The commons.

604
00:31:29,779 --> 00:31:32,359
Like, you know, this idea
that nobody can own it.

605
00:31:32,469 --> 00:31:36,549
There's no rules that you can
even think of to impose on people.

606
00:31:36,639 --> 00:31:41,409
Drew: Instead of rules that are
customs for engaging with it, but

607
00:31:41,409 --> 00:31:45,399
everyone kind of just understands
what they, and everyone sort of sees.

608
00:31:46,239 --> 00:31:50,049
The commons as, as something
to be protected and not to be..

609
00:31:50,499 --> 00:31:50,889
Henry: Managed.

610
00:31:50,889 --> 00:31:52,509
Drew: Captured for oneself or..

611
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:53,789
Managed is a good word.

612
00:31:54,419 --> 00:31:57,809
Henry: Those rules are internalized in
some sense, like they're not written down.

613
00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:59,019
Everyone understands them.

614
00:31:59,379 --> 00:32:03,459
Drew: And it's kind of like the culture
is like an organism that regulates

615
00:32:03,459 --> 00:32:09,669
itself in a constant process of sort of
subtly nudging behaviors towards where

616
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:15,969
they need to be rather than hard rules
that are enforced via punitive measures.

617
00:32:16,639 --> 00:32:21,139
Especially Illich's writing on the
Commons is so valuable because when

618
00:32:21,139 --> 00:32:26,249
I read it, I realize how few examples
there are of anything like a commons

619
00:32:26,249 --> 00:32:30,179
in contemporary life, even things
that we think of as commons are not.

620
00:32:30,179 --> 00:32:33,659
And like when I say public space,
yeah, that is not a commons.

621
00:32:33,659 --> 00:32:38,819
It's just space that's been,
you know, marked off to be used

622
00:32:38,819 --> 00:32:40,769
by groups of people at once.

623
00:32:40,769 --> 00:32:44,819
But I think a, an actual commons in
which you can, like gather resources

624
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:47,819
or do more types of things is not even.

625
00:32:47,819 --> 00:32:50,699
It's not, it's like a completely
different thing than public space.

626
00:32:50,699 --> 00:32:53,729
And I think public space is maybe
a, a more restricted version.

627
00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:53,849
It's

628
00:32:54,419 --> 00:32:57,359
Henry: usually just like space that
the government allows people to use.

629
00:32:57,399 --> 00:33:01,779
Why can't I buy a ping pong table and then
let everyone use it I can't even do that.

630
00:33:01,779 --> 00:33:05,439
Drew: People's behavior changes
when they know that they're

631
00:33:05,439 --> 00:33:06,909
not engaging with the commons.

632
00:33:06,909 --> 00:33:11,454
What you described, if that was not
prohibited in the park, then it would

633
00:33:11,454 --> 00:33:14,634
instantly be a problem because too many
people would try to do things like that.

634
00:33:14,684 --> 00:33:17,394
Because everybody sees it as,
I'm gonna try to claim as much

635
00:33:17,394 --> 00:33:21,504
of this as possible for myself,
either temporarily or spatially.

636
00:33:21,504 --> 00:33:26,874
And in the commons, that wouldn't
happen because the whole society

637
00:33:26,934 --> 00:33:30,924
that is the steward of the commons
would understand that that ruins it.

638
00:33:31,404 --> 00:33:33,954
Henry: Understood that there's
some kind of way of managing,

639
00:33:33,954 --> 00:33:34,794
Drew: there would be a protocol.

640
00:33:34,824 --> 00:33:34,974
Yeah.

641
00:33:34,974 --> 00:33:38,364
That was easy for everybody
to follow and understand.

642
00:33:39,114 --> 00:33:42,419
Henry: And maybe that inherently means
that it has to be local and like Yeah.

643
00:33:42,419 --> 00:33:43,469
Not really scalable.

644
00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:47,729
It sounds like it relates to when you were
talking about like airport lounges, right.

645
00:33:48,239 --> 00:33:50,699
Drew: I think it was last week,
the background of this post.

646
00:33:50,749 --> 00:33:54,319
I went to the US Open, the tennis
tournament, which happens at

647
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:56,689
the end of August and beginning
of September in New York.

648
00:33:56,689 --> 00:34:00,909
And the venue, which I'm sure, I think
this is like common at every stadium

649
00:34:00,909 --> 00:34:04,779
or arena now, but, there were these
Amex lounges all over the grounds.

650
00:34:05,049 --> 00:34:09,159
And there were like chase sapphire
lounges and it felt like an airport

651
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,909
or something from an airport that's
now been exported out of airports to

652
00:34:13,869 --> 00:34:18,189
urban environments, or, I mean, that's
like a private space, a private event.

653
00:34:18,189 --> 00:34:22,059
But actually since I wrote that
post, I was in Manhattan down

654
00:34:22,059 --> 00:34:23,409
by the South Street Seaport.

655
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:25,689
And there was an Amex lounge.

656
00:34:25,899 --> 00:34:25,959
Wow.

657
00:34:25,989 --> 00:34:28,809
Just out on the street for people to use.

658
00:34:28,809 --> 00:34:32,169
And they had like a little bar and
people could like charge their phones.

659
00:34:32,169 --> 00:34:33,819
But you just got in, if you have the card.

660
00:34:33,899 --> 00:34:37,889
And I was like, now this, this kind
of logic is sort of disseminating

661
00:34:37,889 --> 00:34:41,909
throughout space where we have
these enclaves that are kind of

662
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:43,679
nested inside of other enclaves.

663
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:47,069
And you need special permission
or you need some special

664
00:34:47,069 --> 00:34:49,559
status often as a consumer.

665
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,219
If you have the right consumer
status, you get access to this space

666
00:34:53,219 --> 00:34:55,409
that everyone else can't get into.

667
00:34:55,409 --> 00:34:57,319
And that's not new by any means.

668
00:34:57,399 --> 00:34:59,739
But I mean, the airport's kind of
a place where you're familiar with

669
00:34:59,739 --> 00:35:01,239
that and expect to encounter it.

670
00:35:01,819 --> 00:35:04,189
Because even getting into an
airport, you have to clear the

671
00:35:04,189 --> 00:35:06,049
hurdle of having booked a flight.

672
00:35:06,679 --> 00:35:09,799
And then within the airport
there's more and more exclusive.

673
00:35:10,504 --> 00:35:14,164
Spaces that you can all get into
if you have like that specific

674
00:35:14,464 --> 00:35:18,594
boarding pass or this credit card
that gets you into this lounge or

675
00:35:18,594 --> 00:35:20,364
some status on a certain airline.

676
00:35:21,324 --> 00:35:26,094
And now it seems like that's leaking
out of airports and it's everywhere.

677
00:35:26,304 --> 00:35:28,494
And I think that that's probably
been the case for a while.

678
00:35:28,494 --> 00:35:32,214
And obviously there've been
different types of exclusive

679
00:35:32,214 --> 00:35:34,284
environments throughout history.

680
00:35:35,139 --> 00:35:40,479
But this feels maybe new because it
kind of coexists so easily, and I think

681
00:35:40,479 --> 00:35:45,969
when everything is, is sort of digitally
tracked and monitored, you can have the

682
00:35:45,969 --> 00:35:51,669
exclusive Amex lounge, like just right in
front of like, like rubbing elbows with,

683
00:35:51,879 --> 00:35:54,249
with quote unquote public space around it.

684
00:35:54,454 --> 00:35:57,334
In the past, you would've needed a
more heavy handed way to separate

685
00:35:57,334 --> 00:35:58,954
those different spaces out.

686
00:35:58,954 --> 00:36:01,114
But now they can all just
kind of intertwine each other.

687
00:36:01,114 --> 00:36:02,584
Henry: Are they just on
the street or something?

688
00:36:02,584 --> 00:36:04,654
Drew: Yeah, it was just like out in
the middle of the street with like

689
00:36:04,654 --> 00:36:06,334
a little, like a rope around it.

690
00:36:06,974 --> 00:36:07,604
It's kind of funny.

691
00:36:07,604 --> 00:36:10,017
Henry: That kind of reminds
me of SoulCycle Peloton?

692
00:36:10,047 --> 00:36:10,137
Yeah.

693
00:36:10,137 --> 00:36:12,417
They have the outdoor
makeshift gym, I guess.

694
00:36:12,447 --> 00:36:12,897
Drew: Yeah.

695
00:36:12,957 --> 00:36:15,927
And then the space kind of becomes
an advertisement for itself.

696
00:36:15,957 --> 00:36:16,977
Henry: Because it is open, right?

697
00:36:16,977 --> 00:36:17,067
Yeah.

698
00:36:17,067 --> 00:36:17,787
Everyone can see it.

699
00:36:17,797 --> 00:36:21,907
Drew: People see it and they wonder
what they have to do to have access

700
00:36:21,907 --> 00:36:26,837
to it, and it just kind of bolsters
the brand via that visibility.

701
00:36:27,197 --> 00:36:28,907
Henry: Instead of like a gym where you..

702
00:36:29,237 --> 00:36:30,467
I don't know if you can see through..

703
00:36:30,527 --> 00:36:30,677
Drew: Yeah.

704
00:36:30,677 --> 00:36:34,247
Well, a lot of gyms have big glass
floor to ceiling windows, so you can

705
00:36:34,247 --> 00:36:37,517
see, I don't know, I don't know if
that makes them seem more enticing or

706
00:36:37,517 --> 00:36:41,267
not, but I do feel like the Equinox
brand is pretty like powerful.

707
00:36:41,267 --> 00:36:46,722
In different sectors like gyms or WeWorks,
there's all these different versions

708
00:36:46,722 --> 00:36:50,142
of spaces where you're kind of buying
a membership to a desirable space and

709
00:36:50,142 --> 00:36:52,302
then you have unlimited access to it.

710
00:36:52,302 --> 00:36:55,682
And that's kind of the product, is
just being in the space and that's

711
00:36:55,682 --> 00:37:00,472
what you're paying for, rather than
getting any specific good or service.

712
00:37:01,062 --> 00:37:03,622
It's more about just
existing within the brand.

713
00:37:03,682 --> 00:37:06,992
Henry: And making it more like
part of your day to day or just

714
00:37:06,992 --> 00:37:08,522
make it feel like it's just normal.

715
00:37:09,017 --> 00:37:11,717
Yeah, well, everyone goes to Starbucks,
so it's like you go there to work.

716
00:37:11,717 --> 00:37:13,007
It's not even about coffee anymore.

717
00:37:13,077 --> 00:37:15,897
I think did, did they change the
policy where like you could like

718
00:37:15,897 --> 00:37:17,007
just sit there or something?

719
00:37:17,527 --> 00:37:20,547
Drew: I think there's been some
different eras of that because

720
00:37:20,547 --> 00:37:21,717
there was a whole thing with..

721
00:37:21,767 --> 00:37:24,627
I remember it came up last
year during Black Lives Matter.

722
00:37:24,687 --> 00:37:29,870
Somebody got kicked out of a Starbucks
and, um, they were forced to change

723
00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:31,820
their policy and allow people to be in..

724
00:37:32,015 --> 00:37:34,775
I think the question was whether or
not the person had bought coffee.

725
00:37:34,775 --> 00:37:36,565
And I think now they've
pulled back on that.

726
00:37:36,565 --> 00:37:38,155
You can be in there no matter what.

727
00:37:38,155 --> 00:37:42,055
I've always assumed that that was the
case with any fast food type place.

728
00:37:42,055 --> 00:37:44,785
I always kind of thought that you could
go in McDonald's and nobody would ever

729
00:37:44,785 --> 00:37:45,685
question what you were doing there.

730
00:37:45,685 --> 00:37:49,575
And actually McDonald's, I think
has become one of the main public

731
00:37:49,575 --> 00:37:52,805
spaces that people use in different
types of urban environments.

732
00:37:52,835 --> 00:37:57,685
Smaller towns that don't really
have other third places, mcDonald's

733
00:37:57,685 --> 00:38:02,695
sort of fulfills that role, which
is kind of a, a sad statement.

734
00:38:02,745 --> 00:38:07,545
And it's so like your presence in
a place like Starbucks is still so

735
00:38:07,545 --> 00:38:13,875
compromised, but it feels public just
because it is more public than most of

736
00:38:13,905 --> 00:38:15,885
the other environments we have access to.

737
00:38:16,025 --> 00:38:20,885
And I mean, it's kind of this consistent
branded environment that appears around

738
00:38:20,885 --> 00:38:22,925
the world now, and you can find it.

739
00:38:23,825 --> 00:38:28,265
In any, like, pretty much any big city
in the world and know exactly where

740
00:38:28,265 --> 00:38:29,855
you're getting what to expect inside.

741
00:38:29,855 --> 00:38:33,575
And I think that consistency makes
it more desirable for people to

742
00:38:33,575 --> 00:38:38,675
like, or in certain situations people
like welcome that familiarity, but

743
00:38:39,275 --> 00:38:42,785
it's not, I feel like a very small
part of that is about the coffee.

744
00:38:43,275 --> 00:38:45,805
Henry: It is interesting that
it's like, that's like where the

745
00:38:45,805 --> 00:38:49,715
corporate side is becoming the commons
because the common is that knowing

746
00:38:49,715 --> 00:38:51,005
that we've all been to Starbucks.

747
00:38:51,005 --> 00:38:53,885
Drew: It's like discreet spaces
where you would just be in them to

748
00:38:53,885 --> 00:38:58,385
make a transaction now evolve into
like relationships that are ongoing.

749
00:38:58,415 --> 00:39:02,545
I feel that very strongly with the credit
card lounges because it's all about

750
00:39:03,115 --> 00:39:10,195
forming a relationship with American
Express and then you are in this club that

751
00:39:10,235 --> 00:39:16,175
gets different amenities and access to
certain spaces and events and products and

752
00:39:16,175 --> 00:39:22,895
discounts and it's all about you feeling
warm towards American Express and almost

753
00:39:22,895 --> 00:39:29,815
thinking of them as, some sort of people
that are gifting you all these benefits.

754
00:39:30,085 --> 00:39:31,986
Henry: It's like a clan or a guild.

755
00:39:32,256 --> 00:39:35,136
I also read something about
there's a dating ad Bumble.

756
00:39:35,326 --> 00:39:38,126
They're trying to make a space
for people to have dates.

757
00:39:38,276 --> 00:39:40,156
Drew: That's pretty interesting.

758
00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:41,326
I think it's in New York.

759
00:39:41,326 --> 00:39:44,656
I think it's gonna be a coffee
shop or cafe or something.

760
00:39:45,376 --> 00:39:49,486
Anytime something I think of is an app
like suddenly has a physical presence

761
00:39:49,486 --> 00:39:51,106
in the world, it always makes me laugh.

762
00:39:51,136 --> 00:39:54,206
And I mean, there's more and
more of the Amazon Go stores.

763
00:39:54,206 --> 00:39:59,606
It feels very weird and like
bizarre every time I see one.

764
00:39:59,606 --> 00:40:01,556
Like I just walked past one
the other day in Midtown.

765
00:40:01,556 --> 00:40:08,876
It's like sort of a AI generated like
approximation of like what a store is.

766
00:40:08,906 --> 00:40:14,966
They are basically the product of,
Amazon's data, about what types of

767
00:40:14,966 --> 00:40:17,486
things people want on a daily basis.

768
00:40:17,486 --> 00:40:20,516
That could be in like
a bodega type setting.

769
00:40:20,616 --> 00:40:22,926
They just reverse
engineered the corner store.

770
00:40:24,066 --> 00:40:24,246
Henry: Yeah.

771
00:40:24,246 --> 00:40:25,416
That reminds me of when.

772
00:40:25,941 --> 00:40:29,001
People used to like ab
test, like buttons and Yeah.

773
00:40:29,481 --> 00:40:30,591
The most trivial things.

774
00:40:30,641 --> 00:40:34,241
Drew: Actually when I went, have you been
in one of the Amazon physical bookstores?

775
00:40:35,021 --> 00:40:35,532
Yeah, I did.

776
00:40:35,532 --> 00:40:35,533
Yeah.

777
00:40:35,538 --> 00:40:39,671
I went in one of those a while back and
I remember just thinking the same thing.

778
00:40:39,671 --> 00:40:45,431
It felt like the organization of the
store was completely chaotic and not

779
00:40:45,431 --> 00:40:49,721
based on any traditional notion of
how you should organize a bookstore.

780
00:40:49,721 --> 00:40:52,931
You know, like there's very,
like, familiar conventions.

781
00:40:52,931 --> 00:40:54,611
If you go into a bookstore about.

782
00:40:55,316 --> 00:40:56,726
You know, there'll be a fiction section.

783
00:40:56,726 --> 00:41:00,326
There'll be, you know, poetry,
like then all the different

784
00:41:00,326 --> 00:41:01,766
categories of nonfiction.

785
00:41:01,796 --> 00:41:05,936
In the Amazon store, it just felt,
it actually felt like the physical

786
00:41:05,936 --> 00:41:11,146
manifestation of like the Netflix home
screen where it's just rows of content

787
00:41:11,216 --> 00:41:12,686
filed according to different categories.

788
00:41:12,686 --> 00:41:12,776
Right.

789
00:41:12,776 --> 00:41:14,426
But they're not mutually exclusive.

790
00:41:14,426 --> 00:41:17,166
I can't even begin to like, yeah, yeah.

791
00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:19,956
Henry: Well they're all like
the most popular things, right?

792
00:41:20,116 --> 00:41:24,616
I wanna be able to feel like I can
create my own serendipity, but they

793
00:41:24,616 --> 00:41:29,536
kind of force it on you and they're
kind of ruins the joy of just finding

794
00:41:29,536 --> 00:41:31,426
something new 'cause of the algorithm.

795
00:41:31,486 --> 00:41:33,706
Drew: And it also feels
like fake serendipity.

796
00:41:33,706 --> 00:41:39,346
Because someone clearly thought very hard
about what you were going to encounter

797
00:41:39,346 --> 00:41:40,696
as you move through this environment.

798
00:41:40,786 --> 00:41:40,906
Yeah.

799
00:41:40,906 --> 00:41:48,196
And tried to make it more likely, whereas
other, I think the serendipity as it

800
00:41:48,466 --> 00:41:53,746
has been known traditionally is more
like there is no mastermind or like.

801
00:41:53,866 --> 00:41:56,266
Maybe there's a well-designed
environment that makes it more

802
00:41:56,266 --> 00:42:01,576
likely, but it's not trying to ensure
that you have a certain outcome.

803
00:42:01,906 --> 00:42:03,906
It just enables that to happen.

804
00:42:03,936 --> 00:42:06,966
Henry: The fact that it might not
happen is why it's serendipitous.

805
00:42:06,971 --> 00:42:10,511
Not that it was made to happen or
it's a hundred percent gonna happen.

806
00:42:10,821 --> 00:42:12,771
That's how New York is as the city itself.

807
00:42:12,871 --> 00:42:15,876
Although I haven't had it happen
recently, but I used to meet

808
00:42:16,086 --> 00:42:20,446
people I knew all the time, just
randomly walking or taking a subway.

809
00:42:20,836 --> 00:42:22,426
Drew: That's like one
of my favorite things.

810
00:42:22,476 --> 00:42:24,816
I think everyone feels that way.

811
00:42:24,816 --> 00:42:29,196
It sort of releases this massive
amount of endorphins or something that

812
00:42:29,196 --> 00:42:34,446
happens because it really does, like,
I think it's some deep human, thing

813
00:42:34,446 --> 00:42:36,406
to value that or to appreciate it.

814
00:42:36,876 --> 00:42:41,256
Henry: It's the opposite of let's schedule
a date to like meet up or whatever.

815
00:42:41,256 --> 00:42:45,636
I just find myself
wanting to plan less and..

816
00:42:45,666 --> 00:42:48,366
Drew: That would be the dream is
like just to live in a place..

817
00:42:49,236 --> 00:42:52,686
I feel like the last time I really
had that, 'cause I've lived in pretty

818
00:42:52,686 --> 00:42:58,086
big cities, but I think that's, it's
been said that like one of the reasons

819
00:42:58,176 --> 00:43:03,666
people like college so much is because
it's the only one of the only times

820
00:43:03,666 --> 00:43:07,056
in their life or maybe the last time
in their life that they live in like

821
00:43:07,056 --> 00:43:09,006
a walkable place where everybody.

822
00:43:09,786 --> 00:43:12,386
It kind of simulates like a
community in the traditional..

823
00:43:12,386 --> 00:43:14,906
Everything good about a community
without a lot of the downsides.

824
00:43:14,956 --> 00:43:18,736
You have those serendipitous encounters
constantly throughout the day.

825
00:43:18,936 --> 00:43:22,836
You walk everywhere, which in turn
makes serendipity more likely.

826
00:43:22,836 --> 00:43:27,516
Unlike the more restrictive forms of
community that have characterized like

827
00:43:28,296 --> 00:43:32,946
most of human civilization, college is
not, it doesn't have like the confinement.

828
00:43:33,311 --> 00:43:34,421
You ultimately leave.

829
00:43:34,501 --> 00:43:38,391
And you are able to do whatever you
want in a way that hasn't always been

830
00:43:38,391 --> 00:43:41,331
as easy in other types of communities.

831
00:43:41,411 --> 00:43:44,261
I think there is a lot to that, that it
is like, you know, a place where like

832
00:43:44,261 --> 00:43:49,121
there's huge amounts of serendipity, which
is just an indicator of a lot of other

833
00:43:49,151 --> 00:43:52,091
positive social qualities that we want.

834
00:43:52,311 --> 00:43:53,661
Henry: It's like a side
effect where you can't..

835
00:43:54,706 --> 00:43:57,916
Can't make it happen, but if
you have those other things in

836
00:43:57,916 --> 00:43:59,306
place, then it'll go through.

837
00:44:00,266 --> 00:44:04,276
Drew: It's like an outcome of a very
intricately constructive environment that

838
00:44:04,426 --> 00:44:10,566
can only really arise over time with the
ingredients being in place or the right

839
00:44:10,566 --> 00:44:13,686
characteristics of the place allowing.

840
00:44:14,376 --> 00:44:15,726
Things like serendipity to happen.

841
00:44:15,726 --> 00:44:17,906
It just means that it's
a well-made environment.

842
00:44:17,906 --> 00:44:20,756
Henry: Do you think that the
digital space can do that?

843
00:44:21,086 --> 00:44:25,776
Drew: I think it can, but I think the
physical environments are so complicated

844
00:44:25,776 --> 00:44:30,216
and the ones that we've like, like a
city for example, or a town, there's

845
00:44:30,216 --> 00:44:36,291
just so much going on there it's
very difficult to build every quality

846
00:44:36,291 --> 00:44:38,481
of that into a digital environment.

847
00:44:38,481 --> 00:44:41,031
So I think you can definitely enhance
digital environments and give them

848
00:44:41,031 --> 00:44:45,411
better qualities over time and fix
things and tweak things and make

849
00:44:45,411 --> 00:44:47,871
them better and make them more human.

850
00:44:48,541 --> 00:44:52,151
But I think that just because the nature
of digital space is so fundamentally

851
00:44:52,151 --> 00:44:56,411
different from physical space, you're
gonna end up with a different outcome.

852
00:44:56,411 --> 00:45:01,451
And anytime you try to simulate something
that is present in the physical world,

853
00:45:01,451 --> 00:45:04,901
it's harder to faithfully reproduce it.

854
00:45:04,931 --> 00:45:07,751
I think you look at, like, I've, I keep
referring to Twitter because that's

855
00:45:07,751 --> 00:45:10,691
where I spend the most time online.

856
00:45:10,721 --> 00:45:14,201
There's a whole different set of
norms that exists on non-spatial

857
00:45:15,221 --> 00:45:16,751
digital environment like Twitter.

858
00:45:16,751 --> 00:45:21,441
That is like, there are moments on
Twitter that feel like serendipity,

859
00:45:21,441 --> 00:45:24,331
but it's a completely different
type of serendipity than the type

860
00:45:24,331 --> 00:45:26,341
that you get in the physical world.

861
00:45:26,371 --> 00:45:29,461
It's just a different type of environment.

862
00:45:29,461 --> 00:45:33,481
And I think it's interesting when you
see the types of features that people

863
00:45:33,481 --> 00:45:37,687
demand from a site like Twitter,
which kind of is notoriously not

864
00:45:38,047 --> 00:45:42,577
added many new features or changed
the product much over the last decade.

865
00:45:42,577 --> 00:45:45,337
But something like demanding the edit.

866
00:45:45,337 --> 00:45:47,617
But yeah, I think is a
really good example actually.

867
00:45:48,302 --> 00:45:51,152
in the camp of like, we
don't need an edit button.

868
00:45:51,152 --> 00:45:54,812
And I don't really see the benefit
of it, but I think, I mean,

869
00:45:54,812 --> 00:45:56,342
I know why people ask for it.

870
00:45:56,422 --> 00:46:00,502
but just the way that we relate to
like the information in front of

871
00:46:00,502 --> 00:46:05,212
our faces in an environment like
Twitter, I think is so different.

872
00:46:05,242 --> 00:46:10,912
The idea of like a tweet being kind of
like fully flexible and being changeable

873
00:46:11,362 --> 00:46:13,402
via the edit button, like the way that we.

874
00:46:14,392 --> 00:46:17,512
Would engage with, with that type of
information is different than in the

875
00:46:17,512 --> 00:46:21,082
physical world when there's more of
like, if something gets changed, there's

876
00:46:21,082 --> 00:46:22,522
more evidence that it was changed.

877
00:46:22,522 --> 00:46:28,002
All this like fake news stuff that keeps
coming up on Facebook or every, every

878
00:46:28,002 --> 00:46:34,422
website or, or platform, like, I just
think a lot of it stems from the fact

879
00:46:34,422 --> 00:46:36,102
that we don't have as much context.

880
00:46:37,362 --> 00:46:40,932
On the internet and like we could,
a lot of like what people want

881
00:46:41,922 --> 00:46:45,282
from environments that feel more
spatial is just more context.

882
00:46:45,282 --> 00:46:49,692
And I think the physical world's very
good at providing context and it doesn't

883
00:46:49,692 --> 00:46:53,442
come naturally to digital environments.

884
00:46:53,492 --> 00:46:55,322
Henry: The history of
where something came from.

885
00:46:55,322 --> 00:46:58,292
It's like I know that someone's
used this thing or like someone's

886
00:46:58,292 --> 00:46:59,522
been here before, but like..

887
00:46:59,972 --> 00:47:03,092
Drew: On a piece of paper, if something's
been rubbed out and rewritten,

888
00:47:03,172 --> 00:47:04,702
there's more evidence of that.

889
00:47:05,062 --> 00:47:08,862
That's like a narrow example,
but I think the physical world

890
00:47:08,862 --> 00:47:12,342
tends to just leave more traces.

891
00:47:12,342 --> 00:47:12,942
Henry: Traces, yeah.

892
00:47:13,002 --> 00:47:14,052
Drew: Of everything.

893
00:47:14,622 --> 00:47:16,572
Henry: And it's maybe that
goes all the way back to this

894
00:47:16,572 --> 00:47:17,622
whole program language thing.

895
00:47:17,627 --> 00:47:19,482
It's like that's not
something someone thought of.

896
00:47:19,482 --> 00:47:20,352
They're not like, oh.

897
00:47:20,772 --> 00:47:23,862
Let's make it easier to track like
what happened in the past or whatever.

898
00:47:23,952 --> 00:47:24,192
Drew: Yeah.

899
00:47:24,942 --> 00:47:28,842
And again, I mean that to, to bring
up, like NFTs again, that is like

900
00:47:28,842 --> 00:47:33,882
a, that's the type of like feature
that I think is being sort of

901
00:47:33,882 --> 00:47:38,682
copied from pre-digital, like modes
of existence and being replicated

902
00:47:38,712 --> 00:47:40,302
or like artificially introduced.

903
00:47:40,672 --> 00:47:44,902
The idea that like the providence
of an NFT can be or anything

904
00:47:44,902 --> 00:47:46,072
on the blockchain, you know?

905
00:47:46,102 --> 00:47:46,282
Yeah.

906
00:47:46,282 --> 00:47:47,632
That actually leaves a.

907
00:47:47,977 --> 00:47:51,367
Trail immutable, like trail like
I think that's the type of thing

908
00:47:51,367 --> 00:47:56,587
where we're reacting to some of the
problems with earlier versions of,

909
00:47:57,637 --> 00:48:00,787
of software or, or the digital world.

910
00:48:00,787 --> 00:48:03,847
Henry: Is it good to create
that water cooler type place?

911
00:48:03,847 --> 00:48:05,827
You coming here is like you had to.

912
00:48:06,637 --> 00:48:09,517
Take time to go A to B, and then
everything online's instant.

913
00:48:09,517 --> 00:48:14,137
So it's like, yeah, the waiting room,
whatever that means, so that people

914
00:48:14,467 --> 00:48:17,047
have a space where they can stop.

915
00:48:17,477 --> 00:48:20,027
Drew: The waiting room is an
interesting example, like a place

916
00:48:20,027 --> 00:48:24,302
that you're in, but you're not really
there for any particular reason.

917
00:48:24,307 --> 00:48:24,332
Mm-Hmm.

918
00:48:24,417 --> 00:48:25,247
You're just there.

919
00:48:25,397 --> 00:48:25,697
Yeah.

920
00:48:26,087 --> 00:48:30,557
Like I think that everyone ends up with
some digital space that is like that.

921
00:48:30,957 --> 00:48:36,507
The default website or app that
you go to if you're just mindlessly

922
00:48:36,507 --> 00:48:39,147
on the internet and not really
thinking about what you're doing.

923
00:48:39,177 --> 00:48:41,337
Like for me, that would
probably be Twitter.

924
00:48:41,757 --> 00:48:43,527
For some people it's a discord server.

925
00:48:43,627 --> 00:48:45,122
Henry: The feed is the waiting room.

926
00:48:45,182 --> 00:48:46,202
Drew: It is kind of a waiting room.

927
00:48:46,202 --> 00:48:51,392
Like you're just, a bunch of people are
just sort of there hanging around, like

928
00:48:51,872 --> 00:48:53,102
figuring out what they're gonna do next.

929
00:48:54,387 --> 00:48:56,907
Henry: That's funny because
the waiting room is literally

930
00:48:56,907 --> 00:48:58,637
about time rather than space.

931
00:48:58,637 --> 00:48:59,777
Because you could be anywhere, right.

932
00:48:59,777 --> 00:49:02,117
And you know, you're in line
for something else, and then now

933
00:49:02,117 --> 00:49:04,127
you're waiting by joining Twitter.

934
00:49:05,737 --> 00:49:08,557
Drew: You're in the physical and
digital waiting room at the same time.

935
00:49:09,387 --> 00:49:11,457
Henry: But you've like
outsourced the waiting room.

936
00:49:11,457 --> 00:49:14,917
'cause you could be talking to the person
next to you in line, but obviously you're

937
00:49:14,917 --> 00:49:16,297
not, you're not gonna talk to them.

938
00:49:16,297 --> 00:49:18,757
Drew: I kind of said this a different
way earlier, but I do think Twitter

939
00:49:18,757 --> 00:49:21,857
is interesting, and you could say the
same of Instagram or Facebook, but

940
00:49:21,887 --> 00:49:27,557
it's this massive body of work that's
being completely produced by mostly

941
00:49:27,557 --> 00:49:31,637
people that are in the middle of doing
something else or like waiting for

942
00:49:31,637 --> 00:49:37,637
something real to happen, or like taking
a break from like talking to somebody.

943
00:49:38,222 --> 00:49:42,602
I feel like all of my Twitter behavior
is just in these tiny little moments

944
00:49:42,602 --> 00:49:49,502
between things that I would consider
like real activities, and now I've

945
00:49:49,502 --> 00:49:54,332
tweeted like thousands of times and
it, it's just like all the product of

946
00:49:54,932 --> 00:49:59,582
these weird fragments of time when I
was like distracted from something else.

947
00:49:59,662 --> 00:50:02,842
Henry: Well, the way you use it
is definitely reflective of that

948
00:50:02,842 --> 00:50:06,772
then, which I appreciate, but
I don't know what I would say.

949
00:50:06,777 --> 00:50:08,277
Drew: There are a lot
of different approaches.

950
00:50:08,277 --> 00:50:14,607
some people very much take it seriously
and think of it as a way to network

951
00:50:15,207 --> 00:50:17,877
or build their personal brand or
promote something that they're doing.

952
00:50:17,877 --> 00:50:20,397
And I use it to promote
things that I've done too.

953
00:50:20,487 --> 00:50:25,707
But my primary usage of it is stray
thoughts that I'm firing off just

954
00:50:25,707 --> 00:50:27,447
to kind of get them out of my head.