Remembering Gordon Wood: The Revolution, the Constitution, and the Work of History

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Welcome to FedSoc Forums, a Federalist Society podcast. I'm Elizabeth Slattery,
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Vice President of Practice Groups. Be sure to subscribe wherever
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you get your podcasts so you won't miss an episode.
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Now please enjoy today's conversation. Good afternoon and happy Constitution Day.
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I'm Elizabeth Slattery, Vice President of Practice Groups at the
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Federalist Society. Thanks for joining this webinar entitled Remembering Gordon Wood,
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The Revolution, the Constitution, and the Work of History. We're
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fortunate to have a distinguished panel with us today to
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offer reflections on the legacy of Gordon Wood, who passed
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away sadly in June. Gordon was one of the nation's
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most influential historians of the American Revolution and the early Republic,
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and his scholarship has shaped how we understand the founding
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and the Constitution. As always, our usual disclaimer applies. The
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Federalist Society does not take policy positions, and all views
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expressed in this session belong to our speakers. Moderating today's
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discussion is the Honorable Lisa Branch. Judge Branch serves on
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the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.
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You can read her full bio as well as the
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other panelists' bios on our website. There are also some
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other resources linked in the resource tab in Zoom, including
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some of Gordon Wood's writings. One last note, toward the
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end of the program, we'll take questions from the audience.
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Please use the Q & A button, not the chat feature,
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the Q & A button at the bottom of your
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screen in Zoom to ask a question.
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With that, Judge Branch, the floor is yours. Thank you, Elizabeth,
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and thank you to the Federalist Society for hosting this
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event and for choosing, as Elizabeth noted, a particularly appropriate
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day to do so, the anniversary of the signing of
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the U.S.
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Constitution.
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Today, we honor the great American historian Gordon Wood, who
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was tragically killed after being hit by a car in
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a parking lot in June of this year at the
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age of 92. Wood was a professor emeritus at Brown
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University and an active historian up until his death. For
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his best-known book, The Radicalism of the American Revolution, he
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won the Pulitzer Prize. He won the Bancroft Prize for
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his first book, The Creation of the American Republic, 1776
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to 1787. And he wrote a number of other books
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about our founding era and its prominent figures. In 2011,
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President Obama awarded him the National Humanities Medal for scholarship
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that provides insight into the founding of the nation and
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the drafting of the U.S.
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Constitution.
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Gordon Wood's reach was far broader than most historians, and
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today we will explore how and why that happened. His
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words appealed to many, but for different reasons. In the
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early 2000s, Stephen Hayes, EEI, referred to him as the
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favorite historian of America's liberal establishment. His later criticism of
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the 1619 Project may have diminished their enthusiasm, but bolstered
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his appeal to conservatives. Supreme Court justices from Justice Scalia
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to Justice Kennedy to Justice Kagan to Chief Justice Roberts,
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just to name a few, often cite his work. Jason
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Willick pulled the numbers in June of this year and
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found that Wood was cited in at least 24 Supreme
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Court opinions to support arguments about the Constitution's meaning and
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that most citations are to the creation of the American Republic.
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He also enjoyed what he called his five minutes of
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fame in American pop culture when he was referenced by
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Matt Damon's character in a bar scene in Good Will Hunting.
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But perhaps the five minutes ended in an episode of
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It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia when one character in yet
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another bar scene asks, does no one know who Gordon
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Wood is? These three gentlemen here today to discuss Gordon
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Wood certainly know who Gordon Wood is, and they will
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offer their remembrances. Professor Stephen Calabresi, the Barber Professor of
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Law at Northwestern and the co-chairman of the Board of
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Directors of the Federal Society, will speak first. He will
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be followed by Professor Jeffrey Rosen, a senior fellow at
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FIRE and CEO Emeritus at at the National Constitution Center.
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And our final speaker will be Richard Brookhiser, Senior Editor
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at National Review. Professor Calabresi.
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Thank you, Judge Branch, very much for that introduction. And
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thank you, Elizabeth Slattery, for your work in putting together
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this webinar. It's a great honor to speak today on
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Constitution Day about Professor Gordon Wood. Gordon Wood was a
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towering scholar in every way. He was the best historian
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of the American Revolution and of the writing of the
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Constitution and in general of the period from 1760 to
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1826 of all time. No one else in the 237
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years since the Constitution went into effect even comes close.
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Gordon's two biggest contributions were first in expanding our understanding
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of the American Revolution by defining it as a moment
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of radical political and societal transformation, where an older world
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rooted in hereditary privilege was rejected in favor of republicanism
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and the equality of all human beings. And second, in
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explaining how Americans came to put their faith in our
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written and amended constitution. Gordon knew the writings of each
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of the framers vividly, and he wrote about all of
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their lives. He described their virtues and vices with perfect precision.
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He was as institutionally honest an historian as one will
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ever find. Gordon did not write hagiographies, but instead painted
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an accurate portrait of the great men he wrote about.
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Gordon was as great an historian, in my opinion, as
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Herodotus and Thucydides, which is high praise indeed. Gordon was
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also a brave man. a public intellectual who was not
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afraid to challenge popular errors. As Judge Branch mentioned, he
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led the effort to denounce the New York Times' 1619 Project,
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which argued that the framers were all about slavery and
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the triumph of racism. Gordon earned some heated criticism for
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his courageous stance against the DEI effort to paint the
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founders as racist villains. To Gordon, the abolition of slavery,
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women's right to vote, and the Civil Rights Movement of
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the 1960s followed from the founding principles in the Declaration
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of Independence. Gordon believed that the year 1776, when the
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Declaration of Independence was published, was the most important year
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in human history, and that is the year in which
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human beings began to move away from slavery and toward
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freedom and equality. Gordon was equally outspoken in criticizing people
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on the right when he disagreed with them. He criticized
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Vice President J.D. Vance for arguing that Americans are defined
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by their bloodlines and not, as Gordon believed, by their
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devotion to the principles of the Declaration of Independence and
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of the Constitution. In a speech at the American Enterprise
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Institute a year ago and in an op-ed in the
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Wall Street Journal, Gordon wrote that the United States has
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always been a creedal nation, He saw us all as
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from the start of our history as being defined by
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believing in the idea that all human beings are created
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equal and have an inalienable right to life, liberty, and
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the pursuit of happiness. We are Americans because we believe
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in that idea, whether our ancestors were English, French, German, Italian, Irish, Polish, Jewish,
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or of African or Asian descent. Gordon was just as
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adamant in denouncing nativism as he was in denouncing the
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1619 Project. Gordon was also never overstated, nor did he
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understate his case on any point or person of historical interest.
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The Greeks and the Romans identified four cardinal virtues, all
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of which Gordon practiced. Practical wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance.
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Gordon embodied all four of these cardinal virtues. He was firm, sharp,
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and decisive, but also a deeply humble, modest, and kind
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man who loved his neighbor as himself. When the meek
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inherit the earth, Gordon will inherit all the land east
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of the Mississippi River. I tried to persuade him to
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let me write a biography of him, and he adamantly refused.
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He wanted to be known as a great historian, not
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as a celebrity. Although Gordon was an agnostic Episcopalian, he
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embodied the three Christian virtues identified by St. Thomas Aquinas, faith, hope,
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and love. He lived an exemplary life in every way
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down to celebrating the 70th anniversary of his marriage to
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his wife Louise shortly before he died. Gordon was also
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one of my five best friends in the world because
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he was so much fun to talk to. He had
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an immense knowledge, having read and remembered more books and
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articles than anyone else I had ever known. Gordon was
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cheerful and a wonderful colleague. During two semesters during which
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he taught with me at the Northwestern Pritzker School of Law,
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Gordon every day ate lunch, a brown bag lunch he'd
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made himself, in the faculty dining room, engaging in countless
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conversations with any faculty member who came along. When I
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moved to Rhode Island in 2007, I had lunch with
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Gordon right away, and we quickly became good friends. We
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met for lunch almost on average once a month, And
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I miss those lunch conversations greatly. I will treasure my
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memory of them for the rest of my life. Gordon
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Wood was both the best scholar ever of the American
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founding and a wonderful and virtuous human being. And he
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deserves to be remembered as the greatest historian so far
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in the American Republic.
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Thank you so much, Steve. I echo every one of
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Steve's beautifully expressed words. And I'm so grateful for the
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opportunity to celebrate Gordon Wood's legacy on Constitution Day. Happy
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Constitution Day, everyone. I first encountered Gordon Wood in law
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school when his towering book, The Creation of the American Republic,
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was the central text assigned by my teacher, Akhil Amar.
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I came to know him through many panels at the
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National Constitution Center that I moderated. and last saw him
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at a superb conference in his honor that Steve Calabresi
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convened in New Haven just, I think it was about
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a year ago. And spending time with Gordon and taking
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stock of his legacy was extremely meaningful. Steve gave me
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the homework assignment of talking about his book, The Radicalism
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of the American Revolution, which, as it happens, I hadn't
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read because it hadn't come out by the time I
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graduated from law school. So Kiel wasn't able to assign it.
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And it was an extraordinary learning experience to read it
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and learn from it. And I'll tell you what I
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learned from it in a moment. But for me, the
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most meaningful part of the conference was talking with Gordon
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and his sharing that his favorite moment in the constitutional
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ratifying debates was was when William Finley, the weaver from
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backcountry Pennsylvania, bested James Wilson on a point of law.
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James Wilson, the most scholarly of all the founders educated
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at the University of Aberdeen, was debating Finley. Finley claimed
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that the Constitution failed to guarantee jury trials in civil cases.
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And that was a warning. He said when Sweden lost
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trial by jury, it lost its liberty. James Wilson mocked
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him and denied that Sweden ever had any jury trials.
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So the next day, Finley brings his third volume of
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Blackstone's commentaries and shows that actually he'd been right and
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Wilson was wrong. And Wilson has an incredibly haughty response,
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basically saying, I'll forget more law in a day than
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you'll ever know in your lifetime. He says, I don't
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pretend to remember everything I read, but those whose stock
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of knowledge is limited to a few items may easily
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have cause to remember them. And for Gordon, that was
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significant because it just showed that a self-taught anti-federalist who
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read primary sources was able to go toe to toe
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with the most educated founder of his age. I think
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Finley also appealed to Gordon Wood because they shared a
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working class background. Neither of Gordon Wood's parents went to college.
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And Gordon really had sympathy. He was born in Worcester.
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His father was a factory worker. His mother did office work.
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And his extraordinary achievements were always informed by an appreciation
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both of Federalists and Anti-Federalists and people from all backgrounds,
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all of whom have claimed to the American idea. After
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reading the radicalism of the American Revolution, I learned and
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was able to really be struck by the fact that
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Gordon describes its radicalism as a transition from old ideas
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of deference to republicanism and ultimately to democracy. And he
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says that path took some time to complete. He shows
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that the American Revolution was not just a political revolution,
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but also a social and cultural revolution. And in that sense,
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it was as radical as any the world has ever known.
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As he writes, if we measure the radicalism by the
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amount of social change that actually took place, by transformation
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in the relationships that bound people to each other, then
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the American Revolution was not conservative at all. On the contrary,
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it was as radical and revolutionary as any in history.
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Wood shows that the radicalism of the American Revolution was
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based on the transformation of American society, from one based
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on hierarchy and monarchy to one based on equality, republicanism,
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and ultimately democracy. And although Thomas Jefferson initially framed the
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debate between America's two political parties as a debate between
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republicanism and monarchy, none of them could imagine the significance
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of the democratizing forces that the revolution set in motion.
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In the pursuit of liberty, I argue that the battle
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between Hamilton and Jefferson defines all of American history. In particular,
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their battles over national power and states' rights, liberal versus
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strict construction of the Constitution, and democracy versus rule by elites.
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Hamilton believes in the union and national sovereignty, Jefferson in
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local self-government and state sovereignty, Hamilton in the supremacy of
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we the people of the United States, Jefferson in the
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supremacy of we the people of the several states. Jefferson
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thinks every increase in centralized power threatens liberty, and Jefferson
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is determined to expand democracy. Wood's account of the transformation
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of American society from one based on allegiance to monarchy
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to one based on republicanism and ultimately equality and democracy
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shows how Jefferson was able to exploit the anti-democratic strains
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in the Federalist Party and the repeated praise of elected
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monarchs by Hamilton, Gouverneur Morris, and other Federalists for political gain.
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Hamilton cooked up the most effective conspiracy theory in American
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history when he accused Hamilton of conspiring to resurrect Caesarism
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in America based on a blurted-out comment at a dinner
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party that the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.
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And Wood shows that in addition to grappling with the
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political evolution from monarchy to republicanism, both Hamilton and Jefferson
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were grappling with radical social change in how the American
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people understood their relation to each other. Wood also shows
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that the disagreement between federalism and republicans was both political
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and social. In other words, Hamilton and Jefferson disagreed not
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only about the relationship between liberty and power, but also
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about how to respond to the transformation in the understanding
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of social equality, property, and labor heralded by the revolution.
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Jefferson saw equality as synonymous with independence and embraced freehold
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suffrage for white men. Hamilton feared assaults on property by
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the mob. And of course, in the final letter he
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wrote the day before he died, Hamilton insisted that breaking
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up the union would offer no relief to our real disease,
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which is democracy. It's also the case that Wood shows
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that the same battle between classical Republican and liberal visions,
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which were at war in Jefferson's own thought, were also
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at war between the Federalists and the Republicans throughout the
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founding era. And he illuminates Jefferson and Hamilton's battles over
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democracy versus rule by elites by showing this radical evolution
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in American society's understanding of equality. In particular, the idea
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of equality led to a transformation in American publics from
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republicanism to democracy. And Wood writes, equality was in fact
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the most radical and powerful ideological force let loose in
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the revolution. Its appeal was far more potent than any
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of the revolutionaries realized. once invoked the idea of equality
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could not be stopped, and it tore through American society
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and culture with awesome power. Wood also highlights the complexity
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of the relationship between political and social change, as each
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inspired the other. Jefferson's latent life insisted that all people
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could be divided by nature into two parties, Tories and Whigs,
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aristocrats and Democrats. And Wood demonstrates that the American shift
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from monarchy to republicanism to democracy represents a social revolution
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rather than simply a political revolution, one that went further
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than either Hamilton or Jefferson imagined. Both Jefferson and Hamilton
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initially embraced a classical Republican vision of civic Republican leaders,
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Jefferson as a natural aristocrat and Hamilton's professed class of
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elite lawyers and meritocrats. But the radicalism of the idea
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of equality led to a democratic revolution, as Republicans insist
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on universal freehold, in other words, so all white male
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citizens could vote on equal terms. I've always thought that
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the competing positions of Hamilton and Jefferson are like golden
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and silver threads woven throughout the tapestry of American history,
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sometimes side by side, sometimes crossing each other, and at
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critical moments pulling so far apart that they threaten to snap.
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In the radicalism of the American Revolution, as in each
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of his path-breaking books, Wood helps us untangle the threads
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of American social, intellectual, and political history and follow them
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from beginning to end. Each of his books illuminate different
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aspects of the founding era, but all are animated by
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the enthusiastic conviction that he expressed throughout our symposium, namely,
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that the American Revolution, based on the ideas of liberty, equality,
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and government by consent, is one of the most inspiring
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events in world history. For inspiring Americans to learn about
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the significance of the American idea, Gordon Wood will always
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occupy an honored place in American history. Thank you, Mr.
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Burkheiser.
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Thank you for having me. Thank you, Steve and Jeff,
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for your very interesting presentations. Just want to add one
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more difference between Hamilton and Jefferson. As a Hamilton biographer,
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Hamilton founded the New York Manumission Society. The only slaves
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Jefferson freed were his own descendants. But to Gordon Wood,
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not only did we lose him tragically this summer in
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this awful car crash, But it's the end of an
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era in the teaching of the American founding at our universities.
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People who only live in the history slot maybe don't
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realize how lucky they were during our lifetime. I was
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an English major at Yale, class of 77, and I
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saw what happens to my corner of the humanities. And
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if you don't know it yourself, you can read David
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Lodge's novel, Small World, about how theory took over everything.
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And he makes a comic, and he wrote a very
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funny book. But it was really an unfolding catastrophe. But
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what had happened in the teaching of the American founding,
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there was a first generation, Douglas Adair, Edmund Morgan, Bernard Balin,
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who directed Gordon Wood's Ph.D., And then their students would,
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of course, and also Joseph Ellis, his PhD was directed
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by Edmund Morgan. So it continued on for a second
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academic generation. And what these men did and what allowed
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them to buck so much nonsense that was happening in
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the rest of the humanities was they took seriously what
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the founders were saying and thinking. not just the famous
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ones on all the placemats, you know, presidential placemats, but
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also the ordinary people. They did not believe in Charles
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Beard's economic determinism model of the revolution. They wanted to know,
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they wanted to learn and examine what the actors themselves
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said they were doing and what they were thinking, and
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to take that very seriously. That operated for a long time.
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I think it's probably ending, if not absolutely over. All
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honor to Gordon Wood for having kept it going so
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well in his own career. One point I want to
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make is how collegial Gordon Wood was. He assigned me
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the article on George Washington in an encyclopedia of the Enlightenment,
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where he was responsible for articles on the American founding period.
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And I didn't have a PhD. I was not on
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anybody's faculty. I had written a biography of George Washington,
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but Wood had read it and liked it, and he
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thought I could handle this task. And when I submitted
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my little article, he told me I was on time
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and a little bit short. He spoke as if academics
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don't typically do this. I'll defer to my fellow panelists
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whether that's true or not. I was also always struck
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by his integrity. I reviewed his Adams Jefferson book, one
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of his late books for the Times Book Review. And
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this was, I took these two men, these frenemies, they
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were friends, then they were enemies, then they became friends again.
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These long intertwined careers. And he described them, took you
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through the events, and pass judgment on them. And it
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was clear to me as a reviewer that he liked Adams.
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He sympathized with Adams. There was something about Adams' realism,
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his occasional almost cynicism, his refusal to be blinded or
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buffaloed that really appealed to Gordon Ward. But the conclusion
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of the occasional airy-fairiness and abstractions that were utterly unreal
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and that needed James Madison to kind of tug him
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down a little bit. But it was Jefferson who understood
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the country that they both led better than Adams did.
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And I thought that was an example of arguing against
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his own temperament, really. And that was a very impressive performance. Now,
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the final thing that struck me, it's been mentioned already,
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but when the 1619 Project was sweeping the world all
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before it, this was the summer of George Floyd and
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who could stand up to it? But on Twitter, I
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was seeing these posts by the Fourth International, which is
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the Trotskyist organization. And for some reason, they were collaring
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American historians to resist the 1619 Project. They did more
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effort on this than anyone else I saw. Why? I
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have no idea. Maybe they think identity politics disables worker solidarity,
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or maybe they think that the bourgeois revolution must succeed
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before the proletarian revolution can succeed. But for whatever reason,
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they were getting big deal American historians to push back
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against the 1619 Project. And Gordon Wood was one of
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their first catches and one of their most eloquent exponents
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of the idea that 1619 Project got it wrong. So
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those were some of my interactions with him, sadly missed.
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Thank you all. And a reminder to the audience that
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we do welcome your questions, but I'm going to start
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with a couple of questions for the panel, and you
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should just feel free to jump in as you see fit.
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In 1988, Gordon Wood wrote that the meaning of the
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Constitution has changed and will continue to change. But he
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also said, in our choice of interpretations, we are limited
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by history, by the conventions, values, and meanings we have inherited.
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What is your understanding of his view of originalism?
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Maybe I should say something about that at the outset.
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I think that Gordon was sympathetic to originalism because it
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places front and center the Constitution of 1787 and the
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Bill of Rights. And he, I think, regarded those documents
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as profoundly important and profoundly significant. And so I think
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he was sympathetic to the idea of originalism. I know
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he did not always agree with the practitioners of originalism. He,
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from time to time, disagreed with Justice Scalia or with
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Justice Thomas. But I think that he thought the Constitution
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and the Bill of Rights were, to paraphrase Daniel Webster,
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a miracle that had happened once in 6,000 years and
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that we should cling to because it might never be
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repeated again. One thing that's worth noting about originalism that
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I think Gordon believed is that the United States was,
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in 1776, the first country to declare that all men
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were created equal and had a right to life, liberty,
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and the pursuit of happiness. We established the first democracy
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in the world and the first written constitution in the
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world Our Constitution is the oldest constitution in effect in
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the world today. It's also the shortest constitution in effect
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in the world today. And those two facts are probably interrelated.
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The Constitution does have some general phrases to it, and
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that's probably part of why it has lasted as long
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as it has. But the country the Constitution created and
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that the Bill of Rights and subsequent amendments formed is
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a country that millions of people want to move to
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from all over the world. If we had open borders,
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millions of people would move to the United States from
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Latin America, from Asia, from Eastern Europe, and from Africa.
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In the last 30 years, 3 million Nigerians have moved
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to the United States, notwithstanding our troubled race relations at times.
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So I think Gordon really venerated the Constitution, thought it
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was a very special document, and I think he was
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happy about the work on originalism. He often told my
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friend Akhil Amar that he thought that Akhil was his
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successor in the kind of scholarship that he wrote, because
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Akhil wrote books about the history of the original meaning
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of the Constitution. So I think Gordon was broadly sympathetic
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to originalism, although not agreeable necessarily with every originalist position
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taken by a justice.
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Well, you know, two things about originalism. is that originalism
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itself embodied some variety. You see this in the interpretations
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of Justice Marshall, the decisions of Justice Marshall. And sometimes
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he's using originalism of the text, as in the Dartmouth decision,
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where he says, well, when they were thinking about contracts,
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they weren't thinking about college charters. But if it falls
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under the meaning of the words, then we have to
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follow the words. Other times, he does originalism of intent.
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Barron v. Baltimore, one example. So you can see both
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things that work very early on. The other point is
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that originalism includes the amendment process. And we had three
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Civil War amendments, which were very consequential. So originalism itself
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is not a constricted garment.
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That's absolutely right. And I think the core of Gordon
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Wood's criticism of originalism in the creation of the American
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Republic was that the founders disagreed about all the key ideas, sovereignty, representation,
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the separation of powers. They're transformed from 76 to 87.
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At the convention, the founders thought about them. That's the
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point of the central battle between Hamilton and Jefferson on
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judicial interpretation, which is not between originalism and non-originalism, but
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between liberal and strict construction of the Constitution. And there's
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no single original understanding. That idea was essentially contested from
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the beginning, and Gordon Wood felt that most of the
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large ideas about which originalists disagree today are ones about
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which the founders themselves disagreed. He was a bit sharper
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when originalism launched. I think he reviewed Justice Scalia's matter
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of interpretation, and he admired Justice Scalia's textualism, but he
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said that the discretion that Justice Scalia wanted to rein
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in went back to the founding, and that expansive judging
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is not a modern departure from the founder's design. He
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did believe, as a historian, that history is complicated and
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has no simple answers, law office history. He said history
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is much too complicated to be used effectively by judges
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and the courts. Judges have to invent another kind of history.
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We call it law office history or history light. So
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he was certainly not in any way a partisan opponent
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of originalism. As Steve said, he was hardened by the
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fact that history is now centrally relevant in constitutional interpretation.
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because it required Americans to learn about the complexities of
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history and to debate them in historical and textual terms,
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rather than with reference to non-historical features like moral philosophy.
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But it is important to remember that central point that
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he was skeptical of the idea that there's ever one
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single original public meaning about any of the large principles
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about which we debate today.
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I will say on a humorous note that He expressed
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happiness to me about the interest in originalism because he
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00:32:47.869 --> 00:32:50.279
said it was very good for sales of his books.
477
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:55.920
It stimulated interest in the founding and all the founders. And,
478
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:59.160
of course, Gordon, in addition to writing The Radicalism of
479
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.599
the American Revolution and The Creation of the American Republic,
480
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:06.279
also wrote a biography of Benjamin Franklin, one of the
481
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:10.099
most admired of the framers. And then also a book
482
00:33:10.180 --> 00:33:15.480
about the Adams-Jefferson relationship, which is a fascinating study as well.
483
00:33:15.619 --> 00:33:19.109
I think he thought the interest in originalism was good
484
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.130
in that it caused people to look at his books,
485
00:33:21.190 --> 00:33:23.230
but he didn't always agree with what the courts were
486
00:33:23.250 --> 00:33:23.829
doing with it.
487
00:33:24.130 --> 00:33:30.329
So springboarding off what Professor Rosen said about Gordon Wood's
488
00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:36.250
skepticism about the use by lawyers and judges of history
489
00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:39.980
in trying to determine the original meaning of the Constitution.
490
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.569
What advice do you think that Wood would give lawyers
491
00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:47.210
and judges who are going to be using history to
492
00:33:47.269 --> 00:33:50.250
illuminate the original meaning of the Constitution? That is the
493
00:33:50.269 --> 00:33:53.049
direction the Supreme Court has taken us. And so we
494
00:33:53.089 --> 00:33:57.569
do have judges and lawyers who are delving more into history.
495
00:33:57.609 --> 00:34:00.509
So what advice, what cautions do you think he would give?
496
00:34:01.509 --> 00:34:04.579
I think he would emphasize the complexities of history and
497
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:08.699
ask that judges are honest and transparent about it. he
498
00:34:08.780 --> 00:34:12.280
wrote a marvelous book about liberty and power and said
499
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:17.250
that for Hamilton and the Federalists, increases in government power
500
00:34:17.329 --> 00:34:21.389
could secure liberty. And for Jefferson and the Democratic Republicans,
501
00:34:21.849 --> 00:34:26.039
every increase in power threatened liberty. So if when construing
502
00:34:26.059 --> 00:34:31.079
a central question involving federalism, whether it's the bank or
503
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.940
Obamacare or any of the cases that have turned on
504
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.719
the proper construction of the Necessary and Proper Clause or
505
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:42.469
the Commerce Clause, Gordon Wood would ask us to acknowledge
506
00:34:43.110 --> 00:34:47.289
the very different positions of Hamilton and Jefferson. He also
507
00:34:47.670 --> 00:34:50.489
would ask us to acknowledge the many occasions in which
508
00:34:50.550 --> 00:34:54.650
the founders themselves changed their mind and not just quote
509
00:34:55.190 --> 00:34:58.460
one position out of context without acknowledging that they had
510
00:34:58.980 --> 00:35:01.360
an earlier one. This doesn't mean that by any means
511
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:05.360
that history is not useful in deciding cases, but to
512
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:09.630
pretend that that there was not fundamental disagreement when there was.
513
00:35:09.650 --> 00:35:12.429
It's just not to be faithful to history. The more
514
00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:15.210
history you learn, Gordon Wood always insisted, the more complicated
515
00:35:15.230 --> 00:35:17.429
that you think it is. And then once you've acknowledged
516
00:35:17.650 --> 00:35:20.929
the complexity of the debate, then you can, as a judge,
517
00:35:20.989 --> 00:35:24.590
make a decision based on other considerations, text or precedent
518
00:35:24.630 --> 00:35:28.050
or the weight of the evidence, or decide that really
519
00:35:28.090 --> 00:35:32.059
there was one side that won at the convention. And
520
00:35:32.099 --> 00:35:35.099
that was Marshall's point in the back case. He had
521
00:35:35.179 --> 00:35:39.170
before him Hamilton and Jefferson's competing memos over the bank,
522
00:35:39.190 --> 00:35:41.849
and then paraphrased Hamilton almost word for word in his
523
00:35:41.949 --> 00:35:45.349
famous thoughts about let the end be legitimate. If it's
524
00:35:45.389 --> 00:35:49.150
not inconsistent with the Constitution, you can imply the power.
525
00:35:49.349 --> 00:35:52.110
And Jefferson wasn't at the convention, and Marshall believed that
526
00:35:52.150 --> 00:35:56.829
the Hamiltonian view was the one that prevailed. But we're
527
00:35:56.869 --> 00:36:01.090
seeing an awful lot of completely conflicting historical narratives in
528
00:36:01.150 --> 00:36:04.269
recent Supreme Court decisions. In the birthright citizenship case, it
529
00:36:04.309 --> 00:36:07.780
was just fascinating to see Chief Justice Roberts and Justice
530
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:12.139
Thomas with utterly different accounts of both the text and
531
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:16.079
original understanding. And I think Wood would emphasize, don't pretend
532
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.119
that one is, that it's clear. The answer is never clear.
533
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.840
Acknowledge both, and then with humility, make a judgment about
534
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:23.780
which is stronger.
535
00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:28.670
I think Gordon would argue for reading history and immersing
536
00:36:28.710 --> 00:36:32.329
yourself in the history of the founding and of Reconstruction,
537
00:36:33.130 --> 00:36:36.230
and that From doing that, one can really learn something
538
00:36:36.269 --> 00:36:40.449
about the way people thought. And one practical way of
539
00:36:40.530 --> 00:36:44.269
doing that for a busy judge or lawyer that I
540
00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:48.760
would recommend is, in particular, reading some of Aquila Marr's
541
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:54.039
books like The Constitution of Biography or The Bill of Rights,
542
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.480
Creation and Reconstruction or The Words That Made Us or
543
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:03.019
Born Equal. Akhil does a very good job of summarizing history,
544
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:07.820
explaining it, making it relevant to constitutional law. I'd also
545
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:13.389
recommend reading both Jeff Rosen's and Richard Burkheiser's books on
546
00:37:13.670 --> 00:37:17.630
the founding or on particular founding officials. We're very lucky
547
00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:19.989
to have them on this webinar, and they've written very
548
00:37:20.050 --> 00:37:24.659
knowledgeably about the founding, too. One thing about originalism is
549
00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:28.420
that the framers of the Constitution are chose to keep
550
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:33.219
their debates at Philadelphia secret. And they essentially stayed secret
551
00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:37.989
until 1835 when James Madison, who took copious notes, died,
552
00:37:38.550 --> 00:37:42.389
and Madison's notes were eventually released and eventually published and
553
00:37:42.429 --> 00:37:46.289
became widely available. So if one wants to ask what
554
00:37:46.349 --> 00:37:50.070
the original intent of the framers was, their original intent
555
00:37:50.130 --> 00:37:53.070
was that we be governed by the words of the Constitution,
556
00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:57.380
not by the original intentions of the people who wrote them.
557
00:37:57.699 --> 00:38:00.050
This is going back to a point that Richard made
558
00:38:00.389 --> 00:38:05.530
a few minutes ago. And that's, I think, applying the
559
00:38:05.610 --> 00:38:09.190
words that the framers wrote to a world that has
560
00:38:09.269 --> 00:38:12.869
changed in many ways is inherently a very difficult and
561
00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:14.150
demanding enterprise.
562
00:38:15.730 --> 00:38:19.619
Just to comment on the words, one of my subjects
563
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:23.010
was Governor Morris. I'm There's been a lot of work
564
00:38:23.090 --> 00:38:27.309
recently on how he tweaked the final draft of the Constitution.
565
00:38:28.329 --> 00:38:33.360
He did what he could to make this a baseball
566
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:37.400
pitching machine that would send slow ones straight down the
567
00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:42.159
strike zone for President Washington and Secretary of Treasury Hamilton
568
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.309
and Chief Justice Markle to knock out of the park.
569
00:38:46.369 --> 00:38:50.389
One of his tweaks on the Fugitive Slave Clause was
570
00:38:50.820 --> 00:38:55.269
is he got rid of the word justly. The draft
571
00:38:55.650 --> 00:38:58.949
that he was working with spoke of a person's health
572
00:38:58.969 --> 00:39:02.909
to labor can be justly returned to those to whom
573
00:39:02.949 --> 00:39:07.289
their services do. Morris got rid of that. They'd already
574
00:39:07.349 --> 00:39:10.369
said person's health to labor. They didn't say slave. But
575
00:39:10.409 --> 00:39:13.050
he did not want the Constitution to be saying that
576
00:39:13.070 --> 00:39:16.289
there was anything just about this. This was a deal
577
00:39:16.349 --> 00:39:21.090
that got made. It is not just. Also, The contracts
578
00:39:21.190 --> 00:39:25.969
clause itself, what's that doing in there? That was debated.
579
00:39:26.590 --> 00:39:29.969
No vote was taken. The delegates didn't come to a decision.
580
00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:33.659
But lo and behold, when the final draft comes out,
581
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:39.969
Morris's draft, there's the contracts clause. And the Morris scholars
582
00:39:40.050 --> 00:39:42.909
and Hamilton scholars debate, well, which was the one who
583
00:39:42.949 --> 00:39:45.550
stuck it in there? Because Hamilton was also on the
584
00:39:45.590 --> 00:39:48.449
Committee of Style. And so the Hamilton people say, well,
585
00:39:48.469 --> 00:39:50.300
he went up to governor and said, look, you got
586
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.860
to stick that in there. The Morris people say, no,
587
00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:55.840
that was his own idea. But in any case, here
588
00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:59.760
is a very pregnant part of our Constitution that got
589
00:39:59.860 --> 00:40:02.739
smuggled in there at the last minute. Now, they all
590
00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:06.239
signed off on it, right? I mean, no one in
591
00:40:06.260 --> 00:40:10.400
Philadelphia said, oh, wait, what's that doing there? But it's
592
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:16.409
interesting to learn how some very consequential things words appeared.
593
00:40:16.050 --> 00:40:16.940
Where they now are.
594
00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:22.150
So, Professor Calabresi, I think it's always very helpful when
595
00:40:22.190 --> 00:40:26.710
we're talking about an author and about history to suggest
596
00:40:26.789 --> 00:40:29.789
books that the audience members might be interested in reading.
597
00:40:29.829 --> 00:40:32.190
And so you've just done that. But to bring the
598
00:40:32.250 --> 00:40:34.639
focus back to Gordon Wood, to the extent we have
599
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.380
law students in the audience or young lawyers who have
600
00:40:38.429 --> 00:40:42.099
not yet encountered Gordon Wood's works, and I'll ask all
601
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:44.900
of the panelists about this, what work or works would
602
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:46.519
you recommend that they read first?
603
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:51.699
Well, I think absolutely foundational are The Creation of the
604
00:40:51.739 --> 00:40:56.820
American Republic, and The Radicalism of the American Revolution. Those
605
00:40:56.900 --> 00:40:59.010
are the books for which he won the Pulitzer and
606
00:40:59.050 --> 00:41:04.030
Bancroft Prizes. They're the most comprehensive. I should add that
607
00:41:04.130 --> 00:41:07.269
in some ways they're harder to read than the biography
608
00:41:07.289 --> 00:41:11.849
of Benjamin Franklin or his book on revolutionary characters. And
609
00:41:11.889 --> 00:41:14.369
in part, they're harder to read because Gordon did many
610
00:41:14.429 --> 00:41:17.110
drafts of them. And as you do multiple drafts of
611
00:41:17.170 --> 00:41:20.510
a book, sometimes it does become harder to read. But
612
00:41:20.909 --> 00:41:25.469
in The Creation of the American Republic, He brilliantly shows
613
00:41:25.769 --> 00:41:30.550
how gradually over a period of 11 years from 1776
614
00:41:30.550 --> 00:41:35.789
to 1787, Americans come up with the idea of a
615
00:41:35.949 --> 00:41:41.460
written national constitution, of a convention to produce that constitution,
616
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:44.980
and then of the idea of submitting the constitution to
617
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:51.550
state ratifying conventions for their approval. And that Submitting the
618
00:41:51.590 --> 00:41:54.789
Constitution to state ratifying conventions for their approval is very
619
00:41:54.829 --> 00:41:58.639
important because that's why the text of the Constitution matters
620
00:41:58.699 --> 00:42:01.260
so much and not the intentions of the people who
621
00:42:01.300 --> 00:42:04.400
wrote it. It was only the text that was submitted
622
00:42:04.460 --> 00:42:08.079
to the ratifiers. And I think Gordon believed, and I
623
00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:12.480
think most modern-day originalists believe, that it's the understanding of
624
00:42:12.539 --> 00:42:17.159
the ratifiers of the Constitution or of a constitutional amendment
625
00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:22.530
that governs what the document means, not the understanding of
626
00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:27.880
the authors as privately expressed in legislative history. The Radicalism
627
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.860
of the American Republic is essential reading because it does
628
00:42:30.980 --> 00:42:37.380
show that in 1776, before the Declaration of Independence, every
629
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:41.750
society in human history had owned slaves. And it's only
630
00:42:42.050 --> 00:42:46.269
after the Declaration of Independence is issued that that abolitionist
631
00:42:46.329 --> 00:42:51.030
societies begin to appear. The New England states abolish slavery
632
00:42:51.289 --> 00:42:55.599
in the 1780s. New York and New Jersey abolish it
633
00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:59.920
by 1800, and Pennsylvania soon thereafter, and it's gradually put
634
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.159
on a road to extinction. So the Declaration of Independence
635
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:07.519
declaring that all men are created equal appears in a
636
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:11.239
world where there was slavery in every empire and kingdom
637
00:43:11.420 --> 00:43:15.340
on earth. And it gradually leads to a world where
638
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:20.400
slavery is rejected. And the idea that all human beings
639
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.219
are born free and equal is a central human rights
640
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.039
idea for all countries today.
641
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:27.739
Absolutely.
642
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:31.019
To those, I would add, if you want a third
643
00:43:31.059 --> 00:43:34.469
book to read after the ones that Steve mentioned, The
644
00:43:34.530 --> 00:43:37.349
Empire of Liberty, A History of the Early Republic, which
645
00:43:37.409 --> 00:43:42.360
was 1789 to 1815, is a towering experience. exploration of
646
00:43:42.380 --> 00:43:47.260
the cultural transformation of the U.S. from George Washington's inauguration
647
00:43:47.300 --> 00:43:51.570
through the War of 1812. And it chronicles the effects
648
00:43:51.710 --> 00:43:55.289
of the change in thought that he put out in radicalism,
649
00:43:55.650 --> 00:43:59.090
which is how a country which was initially envisioned by
650
00:43:59.110 --> 00:44:04.059
elites as a sort of aristocratic, refined republic, democratized into
651
00:44:04.099 --> 00:44:07.079
a nation of individuals. So that's just a towering work.
652
00:44:07.699 --> 00:44:10.699
And then he has a series of wonderful books about
653
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.239
about the founders themselves that combined storytelling, which is what
654
00:44:14.260 --> 00:44:17.039
made him such a masterful historian, with an account of
655
00:44:17.059 --> 00:44:22.460
their ideas. We talked about the Americanization of Benjamin Franklin,
656
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.800
which is so superb. He has a book about revolutionary characters,
657
00:44:26.860 --> 00:44:32.030
what made the founders different, which shows how their preoccupation
658
00:44:32.070 --> 00:44:35.349
with virtue and honor was central in defining their greatness.
659
00:44:35.369 --> 00:44:38.730
I won't give all the books. I know Richard will
660
00:44:38.809 --> 00:44:41.389
want to chime in as well. But among the The
661
00:44:41.429 --> 00:44:43.820
last one I'll mention, which I learned so much from,
662
00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:48.519
is the one I mentioned earlier, Power and Liberty, Constitutionalism
663
00:44:48.659 --> 00:44:52.139
in the American Revolution. It was 2021, and it shows
664
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:57.000
how American law and legal structures address this core tension
665
00:44:57.059 --> 00:45:00.889
between state authority, individual liberties, and slavery.
666
00:45:02.389 --> 00:45:07.849
Yeah, I'll just agree with Steve. Empire of Liberty, fascinating book.
667
00:45:07.969 --> 00:45:12.170
I reviewed it for National Review. I disagree with certain
668
00:45:12.230 --> 00:45:14.710
things in it. There's a little too much Hamilton as
669
00:45:14.809 --> 00:45:18.369
Snidely Whiplash, but you've all seen the musical, so you
670
00:45:18.389 --> 00:45:23.739
can counteract that. But fascinating stuff. How much Americans drank that?
671
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.960
Absolutely unbelievable how much people drank. Also, I never forgot
672
00:45:30.019 --> 00:45:34.480
this quotation. He quotes some woman who was working in
673
00:45:34.699 --> 00:45:40.500
somebody's household, and she said, I'm not a sarvant. servants.
674
00:45:41.420 --> 00:45:45.880
I'm no servant. So there's both a small d democracy
675
00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:51.400
and also its racial limitation. And I would say, let
676
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.099
me stick up for Hamilton again. Yeah, he thought what
677
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.110
he thought and he said what he said, but he
678
00:45:56.199 --> 00:46:00.070
also wrote for the New York Post, right? He founded
679
00:46:00.110 --> 00:46:03.070
the New York Post. This guy was a journalist since
680
00:46:03.110 --> 00:46:08.230
he was a teenager. And that was the populist medium
681
00:46:08.489 --> 00:46:12.769
of the day, that's the one modern media thing that
682
00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:18.980
existed in the founding era, was newspapers. And America had
683
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.300
more newspapers per capita than any other country in the world.
684
00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:27.010
It had more newspapers absolutely than France had, which was
685
00:46:27.050 --> 00:46:30.909
a much more populist country. And Hamilton was in the
686
00:46:30.969 --> 00:46:35.219
thick of it. He writes 51 Federalist Papers, right? More
687
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.059
than Madison and Jay put together. And he did it
688
00:46:38.139 --> 00:46:41.849
from when he was in St. Croix until his untimely death.
689
00:46:42.650 --> 00:46:44.630
And I've seen the front page of the New York
690
00:46:44.690 --> 00:46:47.530
Post where his shooting was announced. They dropped a little
691
00:46:47.590 --> 00:46:50.670
box in on the front page saying that he shot.
692
00:46:50.730 --> 00:46:53.110
He hadn't died yet. So he lived by it and
693
00:46:53.150 --> 00:46:55.929
he died by it. And that's a very populist thing
694
00:46:55.989 --> 00:46:59.260
to do. I want to say something about Gordon as
695
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:05.420
a person, if I may, Judge. And two observations in particular.
696
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:08.440
One is it was pointed out to me at his
697
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:12.599
memorial service, and I think this is entirely right, that
698
00:47:12.699 --> 00:47:16.320
Gordon spent so much of his life immersed in reading
699
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:21.510
originalist 18th century source materials that he almost became an
700
00:47:21.739 --> 00:47:28.469
18th century American himself. He had a certain genteel, civilized,
701
00:47:29.130 --> 00:47:35.360
deistic personality. that I associate with the framers. And I
702
00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:38.539
think he was really influenced by all the framing history
703
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:42.059
he wrote. And he became an 18th century American in
704
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:44.159
part because of that. And that's part of why he
705
00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:48.000
spoke so powerfully and why he was so charming. Another
706
00:47:48.019 --> 00:47:52.219
thing that I wanted to emphasize is that Gordon wrote
707
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:57.139
many books and many articles and gave countless academic speeches
708
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.800
and was, as I said, I think the greatest historian
709
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:04.510
in the 237 years of the Republic. But he never
710
00:48:04.610 --> 00:48:09.090
forgot that he was the son of working-class parents, and
711
00:48:09.130 --> 00:48:12.829
he was very modest. And that was driven home to.
712
00:48:12.789 --> 00:48:16.070
Me one day when I had lunch with him, and
713
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:20.139
we were talking about a jury trial, and he said, actually,
714
00:48:20.179 --> 00:48:24.099
as it happens, I just recently served on a jury
715
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.710
in a murder trial. And the trial went on for
716
00:48:27.949 --> 00:48:30.130
six weeks. And I said, what was it like? And
717
00:48:30.170 --> 00:48:34.650
he said, well, it was a fascinating experience. And after
718
00:48:34.710 --> 00:48:37.889
the trial was over, I went out for a beer
719
00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:40.750
with my best friend on the jury. And I asked
720
00:48:40.789 --> 00:48:43.130
him what he thought of jury trial in light of
721
00:48:43.170 --> 00:48:47.369
what he'd just seen. And the friend said that he
722
00:48:47.409 --> 00:48:50.690
was very impressed by it. It made him much more
723
00:48:50.769 --> 00:48:54.030
supportive of the criminal justice system and of the government.
724
00:48:54.769 --> 00:48:59.250
And then Gordon's friend paused and said, Gordon, the amazing
725
00:48:59.309 --> 00:49:02.719
thing about that six-week jury trial is that we reached
726
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:07.039
basically the right answer in a complicated case, even though
727
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:10.559
of the 12 of us, only one had graduated from college.
728
00:49:11.380 --> 00:49:14.469
And so Gordon said, and who do you figure that was?
729
00:49:14.969 --> 00:49:18.110
And the friend said, oh, the reverend. In order to
730
00:49:18.150 --> 00:49:21.300
go to divinity school, he must have graduated. from college.
731
00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:25.219
So this fellow had no idea he was talking to
732
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:28.679
the greatest historian in American history, and Gordon wasn't going
733
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.340
to let him know that. And that's just the way
734
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:35.110
he was. He was a very modest, decent, kind human being,
735
00:49:35.409 --> 00:49:38.199
and that deserves to be part of his what we
736
00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:42.039
remember about him along with all of his many intellectual accomplishments.
737
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:44.400
Well, I would be remiss if I did not ask
738
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:47.519
our other two panelists, is there a personal reflection or
739
00:49:47.539 --> 00:49:51.070
a personal anecdote since you did know Gordon Wood that
740
00:49:51.090 --> 00:49:51.969
you'd like to share?
741
00:49:51.989 --> 00:49:57.050
Well, I think I already shared mine, which was his
742
00:49:57.269 --> 00:50:00.750
air of surprise that I submitted a thing on time
743
00:50:00.789 --> 00:50:05.420
and a little short. So perhaps that was a reflection
744
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:09.869
of Let the professors correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps
745
00:50:09.969 --> 00:50:12.610
that's a reflection of what academics have to deal with
746
00:50:12.650 --> 00:50:14.050
when they deal with each other.
747
00:50:15.750 --> 00:50:18.559
I know I've shared many of mine as well, but
748
00:50:18.579 --> 00:50:22.239
I must say I was struck at the conference that
749
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:26.900
Steve organized, both by his devotion to his wonderful wife
750
00:50:27.019 --> 00:50:29.820
and she to him. They traveled together, and I think
751
00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:32.610
she was an invaluable part of his life as she
752
00:50:32.650 --> 00:50:38.219
was of his life. And then just the simple patriotism
753
00:50:38.260 --> 00:50:40.840
of the man. I think we were just walking outside
754
00:50:41.019 --> 00:50:44.119
for coffee or something like that. And he looked around
755
00:50:44.139 --> 00:50:47.460
the Yale campus and just shook his head and said
756
00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:51.989
something along the lines of the American Constitution is the
757
00:50:52.070 --> 00:50:55.130
greatest and most wondrous achievement for freedom in all of
758
00:50:55.190 --> 00:50:58.610
world history. He never stopped being filled by that sense
759
00:50:58.670 --> 00:51:01.969
of awe and wonder about what a miracle it was,
760
00:51:02.489 --> 00:51:06.489
how it was based on ideas. and how the American
761
00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:11.010
idea itself is what defines us rather than our background
762
00:51:11.150 --> 00:51:13.989
or race, creed, or religion. It was really impressive.
763
00:51:14.670 --> 00:51:18.269
Absolutely. And I think he believed that the subsequent amendments
764
00:51:18.329 --> 00:51:22.119
which had democratized the Constitution were all a carrying out
765
00:51:22.300 --> 00:51:27.380
of the revolution, the American Revolution of 1776, and they
766
00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:30.780
were a fulfilling of the spirit of it. And he
767
00:51:30.820 --> 00:51:37.030
was unabashedly enthusiastic, not just about the U.S. Constitution as amended,
768
00:51:37.570 --> 00:51:41.210
but also about the United States. He didn't actually use
769
00:51:41.250 --> 00:51:45.170
President Reagan's phrase, a shining city on a hill. But
770
00:51:45.210 --> 00:51:47.760
I think that's the way he thought of the United States,
771
00:51:47.889 --> 00:51:50.380
the way he thought of the American Revolution and of
772
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:54.480
the Constitution as amended. It's a shining city on a hill.
773
00:51:54.579 --> 00:51:58.880
It's a beacon of liberty to oppress people living under
774
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.980
undemocratic regimes all over the world. And that's, at the
775
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:05.679
end of the day, what explains why millions of people
776
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:07.820
want to move from other parts of the world to
777
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:11.659
the United States, and almost no Americans want to move
778
00:52:11.900 --> 00:52:15.360
out of the United States. And that, I think, signifies
779
00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:18.820
the sense in which the Constitution is really accepted and
780
00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:21.110
embraced and revered.
781
00:52:21.820 --> 00:52:24.550
And what an inspiring message Gordon Wood gives us, as
782
00:52:24.590 --> 00:52:29.510
you just summarized so well. On Constitution Day, America's greatest historian,
783
00:52:29.989 --> 00:52:34.969
who explored the complexities and challenges of American history with
784
00:52:35.309 --> 00:52:40.429
unflinching honesty, did not shy away from describing the hypocrisies
785
00:52:40.489 --> 00:52:42.980
of slavery and the many ways in which the founders
786
00:52:43.420 --> 00:52:47.739
fell short of their own ideals. Despite all that, with
787
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:51.539
more knowledge of the complexities than anyone else, he still
788
00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:55.070
believed that we were indeed a shining city on a hill.
789
00:52:55.090 --> 00:52:57.730
He still felt that it was impossible to conceive of
790
00:52:57.789 --> 00:53:00.909
a greater document for freedom in all of world history.
791
00:53:01.429 --> 00:53:03.409
And in that sense, he gives us optimism in these
792
00:53:03.510 --> 00:53:07.639
challenging times when so many wonder whether the Republic will
793
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:11.780
thrive and survive. Wood teaches us the founders themselves had
794
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:15.000
the same concerns. They were not sure whether or not
795
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.400
the experiment would survive, which is why it was from
796
00:53:17.420 --> 00:53:20.590
the beginning an experiment. And yet they gave us such
797
00:53:20.630 --> 00:53:23.730
a gift in this beacon of liberty and this structure
798
00:53:23.809 --> 00:53:28.050
for a civil deliberation. that it has survived for 250 years.
799
00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:31.079
And that gives us confidence that we will continue to thrive.
800
00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:35.559
I think that's such a wonderful way to wrap up
801
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:39.989
this session. As we are remembering Gordon Wood, as we
802
00:53:40.030 --> 00:53:44.849
are celebrating Constitution Day, as we are still celebrating America 250.
803
00:53:44.849 --> 00:53:47.309
And I think that is just to end on a
804
00:53:47.309 --> 00:53:52.010
very uplifting note. And I thank all of you panelists
805
00:53:52.070 --> 00:53:54.829
for being present here today. I think this has been
806
00:53:54.889 --> 00:53:57.250
a phenomenal remembrance of your friend.
807
00:53:57.710 --> 00:54:00.480
Thank you, Judge. And thank you also, Jeff and Richard.
808
00:54:01.179 --> 00:54:01.659
Thanks to all.
809
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:02.679
It was an honor to be here.
810
00:54:03.860 --> 00:54:06.860
Thanks for having me. Thank you, Elizabeth.
811
00:54:07.579 --> 00:54:10.159
Well, on behalf of the Federalist Society, I want to
812
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:14.090
thank everybody, Judge Branch, Steve, Jeff and Richard. Thank you
813
00:54:14.110 --> 00:54:16.829
for sharing your time and expertise with us today. I
814
00:54:16.869 --> 00:54:19.889
want to thank our audience for tuning in. We welcome
815
00:54:19.969 --> 00:54:25.469
listener feedback by email at FedSocForums at FedSoc.org. And as always,
816
00:54:25.530 --> 00:54:27.510
keep an eye on our website and your emails for
817
00:54:27.590 --> 00:54:31.159
announcements about our upcoming events. Thank you again for joining today,
818
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.880
and we are adjourned. Thanks for listening to FedSoc Forums,
819
00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:38.679
a Federalist Society podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you
820
00:54:38.699 --> 00:54:41.539
get your podcasts so you won't miss an episode. To
821
00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:44.139
learn more, visit our website, FedSoc.org.