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Let's get to the show.
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I am your host, Nick Worker.
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If this is your first time tuning in, this is the podcast where we share expert advice on all the parts of running a law firm that attorneys weren't exactly trained for back in law school.
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I never get tired of saying that.
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With me today, I have Delecie Friday, the founder and owner of First Call Friday.
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We have a lot to get into in this episode.
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But first, I want to have fun.
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I want to ask you a question and find out more about you.
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And we do like a like a pre-interview.
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We want to make sure like we know a little bit about you before we dive in.
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So I have only been in, and I will tell you the story, one fight ever.
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But usually when people discuss their first fight or like a fight story, it includes like a sibling or maybe a classmate.
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But your story is a little different, and I'm very eager to learn more about this.
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But who was your first fight with?
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I mean, my first one is obviously my sister's.
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Okay, that's fair.
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But but um I think probably the most interesting one is Kim Kardashian.
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And I think I would like to describe it as maybe a not ideal interaction because I don't want to get into this legal battle with the Kardashians.
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However, I mean, is it really a legal battle if it's true?
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That's not libel or slander.
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So, fun fact, Kim Kardashian's been married a few times.
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Her first husband is a famous music producer named Damon Thomas.
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And after Kim and Damon divorced, I dated Damon.
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So that's how I met Kim Kardashian because after they divorced, Damon and I were out at a private members-only event, something celebrities do and they don't want to be out and worried about people taking photos of them and sending things to the paparazzi.
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She was there with Paris Hilton at the time.
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They were best friends.
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So this does date me.
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And I went up to them to go say hi.
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Because I thought if if she's giving me oval, as as my family says, I should go say hi and introduce myself because I'm just that southern Texas girl.
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I didn't know any better.
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And so when I went up, um we did not have an ideal interaction.
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And thankfully, Damon had a bodyguard who whisked me away and took me out of that situation.
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And I learned that night what his bodyguard was for.
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And so that was my first and last interaction with Kim Kardashian.
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Funny enough, I actually saw Paris Holton a few weeks later.
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It was the night that she met Matt Linert.
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They ended up dating for a while and she was fine.
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I mean, we said hi to each other, had some small talk.
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Janet Jackson taught me that night that strawberries pair with champagne as one would.
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And that's just a typical LA night back in the day.
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So I have tons of those stories, but the moral of the story is I will never share all the details because trust and confidentiality are so important to me.
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And I want all those people to still trust me to be around them, just like the lawyers do who hire me.
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So with me, I'm always gonna be that person who will have a juicy story, but I'm just not gonna give you all the details.
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But that makes you an international woman of mystery.
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And isn't that more appealing maybe to me?
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My first fight I'll write my tell-all book.
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And I will buy it.
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My first fight is really not extraordinary at all.
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I was underage drinking at a bar in an upstate college, and I said something mouthy to a friend of mine who shoved me, and when I went to go get back up, because he shoved me to the floor, I went to go get back up.
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I was lifted off of my I am a grown man.
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I am six feet tall.
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I was lifted off of my feet and picked up outside of this establishment and put down nicely on the ground.
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I don't know how a person could lift another human being like that, but to this day, I was like, wow, I am a tiny baby, and I can be picked up and moved to another location through modality.
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Hey, you know what?
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It just makes us appreciate people like that.
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Yeah.
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It was still so small.
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It could I've seen videos of bouncers handling things a lot differently, and this guy very peacefully removed me, which I am grateful for because I did not get hurt.
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So our our fighting, well, I hope your fighting days are behind you.
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I have not uh been in a fight in a long time, mostly because I am scared.
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But can you share a little bit about what you're doing with law firms right now for people who might not be familiar with like the because it's new, right?
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First call Friday is is really new.
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It's exciting, but like what like what's going on?
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I started First Call Friday February of 2025.
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So yes, it is very new.
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Thank you.
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What do I do?
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I help lawyers make friends who refer them cases.
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So that's my magic statement, which I encourage all lawyers to do so people remember what people do and who they help.
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But essentially, I help lawyers connect with other lawyers so they can send cases to each other.
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And I help lawyers think of different ways to market to former clients.
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Because hello, your former clients can all be referring you business, and they're the best people to refer you business because they already know what you do, who you help.
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And those personal referrals, I mean, they're just so strong.
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That's gonna convert higher than any ad ever can because that personal referral carries a level of trust that you can't buy.
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That's what I do.
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All referral marketing.
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I often tell this, it's not really a story, it's it's just a part of my upbringing.
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That my grandmother, uh still to this day, I will not age her, runs.
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I like to say she runs a personal injury law firm in Brooklyn because I have to imagine that my grandmother, I know her very well.
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I know her personality, she runs this place.
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And I would always, like, I wanted to go to law school and I would hang out with the lawyer.
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Um, they're very close.
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They've been together for I can't say how long they've been together for.
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Sorry.
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Uh, if my grandmother watches this ever, she will kill me.
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So I would always ask him questions like, oh, like, what do you do if this happens?
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Or what do you do if this happens?
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And I once asked him, because I I had no semblance of like a specialized practice.
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He practices uh personal injury, and it's a lot of bicycle accidents in Brooklyn because people ride their bikes.
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And I would be like, Oh, like, is it so cool when you like defend somebody and you go to court?
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Like, all this stuff.
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What what do I know?
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And he's like, I don't do that.
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And I'm like, Well, then what do you do?
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And he explains it to me.
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And I say, Well, what happens if someone calls you for that type of case?
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Because you have a big name.
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And he says, I refer it out.
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And I started learning about like how lawyers actually do that, then come to start working here at Answer in Legal.
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I was a terrible, terrible salesman.
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And a few years ago it was a lot more common for people to say, I have a general practice, and so they don't refer out cases.
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But now when you speak to someone, we will consult with them.
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What type of cases do you handle?
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What type of cases are your ideal cases?
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And if something comes in, we don't, by policy, tell the caller that you don't handle this case.
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We'll send you this whole thing and we'll let them know, or we'll let them know whatever you want them to know.
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But you refer it out as you see fit, and we don't get into that um mumbo jumbo, right?
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So I started learning about like how you should have these relationships, but I've been learning so much more from you.
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So I want to get really into it.
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I don't I don't want to talk about anything other than that.
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What is it that you help lawyers do to encourage them to how do you facilitate this?
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So, first it starts with a discovery meeting because I need to look at their data and ask them a bunch of questions before I can provide any kind of opinions on any of it.
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And so I'll give you an example, what you just mentioned.
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During my discovery call, one of the things I'm asking them is what happens when someone calls your law firm and it's a case that you do not accept.
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What do you do?
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And if they don't have a system in place for how to refer those cases out to someone else, that's one of the first places that I start.
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Because think about how much it takes to get someone just to make that one phone call.
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You have someone who is looking to hire a lawyer and looking to take an action.
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It just so happens it doesn't match your case acceptance criteria.
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If you just say, I'm so sorry, that's not something we do, we hang up.
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Oh my gosh, like my heart hurts.
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I want to immediately help you fix that one part of your business because everyone should be referring out those cases to someone who can help them.
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And so what I do is I'll start asking them different questions, where I start with the very beginning.
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What are you doing with the cases you can't accept?
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If you're not sending those, what would be rejected cases to a referral partner and using that to create referral relationships, that's where we have to start.
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A hundred percent that's where we have to start because all of those referrals can be relationships you're creating with other law firms who in turn are gonna want to send you a case back because you're sending them business.
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I mean, if people could see the video of us just like hand gesturing and making faces right now, because you know what I'm talking about and I know what you're talking about, that is gold right there.
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So, yes, I start with that and I help talk them through what that looks like if they haven't done it.
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So let's say one of your clients says, Hey, Nick, um, I hear what you're saying.
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I understand that's important, but I don't have relationships with all those people.
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So, what I'll do is I will help coach them through how to do that.
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So, here's a free tip for anyone listening and who isn't going to hire me yet.
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If you're trying to figure out who you can refer those cases to, one, ask your colleagues who you already have relationships with and who you trust.
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Say, hey, Nick, when I get a family law case in, it's not something that we handle.
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Who do you send your family law cases to?
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And see if your friend Nick has a recommendation.
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Great.
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Um, can you make an introduction to Jan?
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I would love to meet Jan and see if I can refer my family law cases to Jan.
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And now I know that the relationship I'm creating with Jan is one that Nick referred me to.
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So I'm more likely to trust Jan because Nick is my friend.
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I know I can trust Nick.
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And so if he refers me a Jan, then I appreciate that.
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And we both have Nick in common.
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So that's easy.
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If someone's listening to this and says, I don't have a Nick though, like I like I don't know who to ask for referral to a family law lawyer.
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Go on LinkedIn and ask your colleagues on LinkedIn.
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If you start to notice in that post, the same lawyer is getting recommended like five times.
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Well, I think you just found your referral partner because that person clearly has a great reputation if so many people are referring them to you.
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And here's like advanced Nintendo for you.
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Let's say you're like, okay, Delisi, I don't want to use LinkedIn and I don't have friends.
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I am an introvert and none of this applies to me.
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I'm not like you, and that's okay.
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Then my recommendation to you is to go on Google and do a search for family law attorney and see which attorneys pop up and have ads.
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Why?
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Well, because the person who's spending money on ads probably has an intake team because they need to answer all of those phone calls, right?
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You don't want to spend ad money and you don't have someone answering the call.
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So they have an intake team, they probably have 24-7 phone service as well.
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And then you can go and you can look at the reviews and see who has good reviews and start having conversations with those people.
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And so if you're gonna refer a case to someone, you want to make sure you're referring it to someone who has their business put together well.
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And I would start creating a relationship with those people.
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The second part of that is whoever's spending money on ads and has that system in place probably has calls that come in for case types they don't accept.
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So when you start to build that relationship, then you can say, hey, Nick, you know what?
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I've been sending you those family law cases.
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And I know a few of them have worked out.
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I would love for this to be a reciprocal relationship.
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Do you ever get criminal defense cases?
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Because I would love to earn your criminal defense case referrals.
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You start at intake.
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You start at intake and you start with your rejected cases because that is easy money.
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You can make that change today.
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I love and I wanted to give you a little like yelp of excitement when you started your discovery with any lawyer, right?
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And you put the onus on them.
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You're not like, oh, you sit around and wait and call people up and ask for referrals.
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No, if you get a rejected case, which inevitably you will, send that to somebody that you know, like, and trust.
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Or maybe, right, how I would do it.
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If I was an introvert, which I am not, I would do, say I had no friends, I had I don't have a a DeleC, I don't have anybody.
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I would go to Google.
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Um, no, I I jumped the gun, ADHD.
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I would tell the person who called me, hey, I'd love to help you connect with a really great lawyer who can help you with this problem because it's an important one.
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Um, give me eight hours with which to do this research, I will get back to you.
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And it's just a recommendation.
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You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do.
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You're building the relationship, right?
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You're making the first move.
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You're not relying on the universe to come knock on your door and start sending you referrals because it's most likely not going to happen.
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I shouldn't say never.
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Say you say you successfully set up this relationship, right?
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You make the first move, you send a referral partner to uh a referral partner, you send uh uh a case to a potential referral partner, you call them up, you have this nice conversation, it goes really well.
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What do you do from there?
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I do a few things and I'll share them in order.
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So, first, when I transfer that call to the referral partner, one of the things I make sure I do is tell my referral partner as much information I already know about the case.
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So the potential new client doesn't have to repeat themselves for the 75th time and then get annoyed by it.
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I do that for two reasons.
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One, because I don't want that PNC to be annoyed, they're repeating themselves again.
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Two, I want my referral partner to know when I refer a case, I'm gonna refer it nicely.
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I'm going to do a warm transfer.
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I'm gonna tell you about the case so you don't have to ask all the same questions because how you do anything is how you do everything.
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If I make that warm transfer and it's a great experience for you, you're probably gonna be like, man, if that's a rejected call transfer to me, imagine what it would be like when they actually handle a case.
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So once I make that transfer, I would have intake or anyone in the office follow up with that law firm and say, Hey, law firm, I referred Nick to you earlier today, or I referred Nick to you yesterday.
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I just wanted to check in and see if that referral worked out.
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And the reason why I do that is because I want to know if the cases I'm referring to Nick's law firm are converting.
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I'm following up because I'm trying to build a relationship.
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I'm following up because I want to remind them how many cases I'm sending their way.
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And if Nick says, No, I'm sorry, we didn't accept that case, then I can ask the question, okay, can you tell me why?
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I want to understand your case acceptance criteria.
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So when I send you a case, I know it's a case you're gonna accept.
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And if Nick says, look, the reason we didn't accept that case is because Maria got married in Texas and our law firm is located in Illinois.
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She didn't tell us that she's only here in Illinois for a small amount of time during the divorce, but her home is actually in Texas and we got a file in Texas.
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And I was like, oh, okay, that's good to know.
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And so I'm building a relationship with the referral.
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The next thing I do after that, I'm calling that potential new client that I transferred to the law firm partner, and I'm saying, hey, Maria, I just want to check in with you.
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Was Nick's office able to help you?
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:36.400
They were.
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:37.519
Oh, great.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.640
We are so happy they were able to assist you.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:42.960
Maria, can I ask you a favor?
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:48.480
If I send you this Google review link, do you mind leaving a review of your experience?
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.480
There are a lot of people out there who get really nervous about calling law firms.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:19:01.279
And it would be so helpful if you could help us by leaving a review of your experience so other people feel comfortable calling us for help.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:13.279
Now I've gotten a Google review out of a rejected case, and I'm creating a partnership with that law firm I just sent to the case, and that is efficient marketing.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.599
You are really good at this.
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.200
Um it's so well spoken, too.
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.960
Like off the top of your head, you uh but you do it all day.
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:24.640
So it's like I do it all day.
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.400
This is this is my jam, Nick.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:27.599
This is my jam.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:29.279
I love it.
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.960
So you have the referral uh partnership like set up.
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:43.599
You you know your your your SOP for contacting the person who called you and the firm and learning more about what type of case this person handles and this person handles.
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.119
You get that all set up, right?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:50.720
How then do you evaluate those relationships, right?
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.920
Because I I'll give you a good example.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:59.759
I have people that I refer business to because we deal with a lot of lawyers, and as you can imagine, calls.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:06.000
Volumes fluctuate for lawyers, and they will call us and they'll say, I need to reduce this, or I need to cut it all together.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.640
And they're like, My marketing isn't working.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:09.839
We're like, hey, cool.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:10.640
We could totally do that.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.559
Freeze your account, cancel, whatever.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:20.079
But if you need help, we have partners that we know, like, and trust in the space who we'd be happy to recommend you to what are you looking for?
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:21.839
What is like where's your area?
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:22.319
Whatever.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.240
And then we can help you get connected.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:31.039
So I know, like, there, there's the people who actually email me and tell me that they referred me someone so that I know how to pay it back.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:35.279
But um, how do you stay top of mind for your referral partners?
00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:39.839
How do you sort of um continue to foster that relationship?
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:41.680
I do it a variety of ways.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:47.119
So I stay in touch with my referral partners by phone calls, text messages, emails.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.319
A lot of the people I refer business to, I have strong personal relationships with.
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.640
I've been in legal for 20 years now.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:59.440
And so the people I'm referring business to, I've known for a long time.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.839
So it could be like just a random text where I'll say, Charlie, did you see this?
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.160
And I'll just I'll send a text message.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.079
The other part is LinkedIn.
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:16.240
I believe everyone should be on LinkedIn, posting, commenting, connecting professionally, sliding into the DMs.
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:21.279
And so I connect and stay a top of mind with a lot of people through LinkedIn too.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:23.920
I'm also a huge fan of gifting.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:31.759
And so if I see something that reminds me of a referral partner of mine, I'll just send a random gift.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:37.759
So um I try and do birthday gifts for all of my referral partners too.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:48.240
And I will congratulate them if they're doing something that I really applaud because I want them to know I see them and I recognize what they're doing is amazing.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.240
And so sometimes it's that.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:52.480
And also just a, hey, can we connect?
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:58.240
You had Ron Latts on the show recently, and Ron is a friend of mine, and he and I will message each other.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:03.599
I'll ask him for advice on something, and he will ask me a question, and we just vibe really well.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:12.319
So every once in a while, Ron and I will just hop on and just say, Hey, let's talk this idea out together, and we'll just we'll talk it out.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:17.920
And so I think staying top of mind really depends on the person and what they're comfortable with.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:22.160
For me, I do all the things because I'm just that person.
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:33.759
But for some people, it might be something a little bit more simple and a calendar reminder to do it too, where me, I'll I'll just do it in the moment.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.400
So what's a variety of those things?
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:43.519
I try so hard to organize my life with a calendar, and then the calendar will remind me to do that thing.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:45.680
I don't want to do it yet.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.960
And and or I've already done that thing that it needed to remind me to do because I'm an in the moment person.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:57.119
So I I very much identify with what you're saying.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:07.680
And also I love connecting with Ron because he's very helpful in really all facets of any information or advice that you would need.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:18.480
Okay, aside from that, what are, in your opinion, some of the referral sources that law firm owners might be overlooking?
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.200
And what else are are they missing about referrals?
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:27.359
Because I feel like in ref in in a traditional sense, people kind of they'll be like, oh yeah, of course.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:34.319
I refer my cases to this person and he does a great job, and they refer cases, but they're not really thinking that much deeper about it, right?
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.440
Like, what are what are we what are we all missing here?
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.039
I refer to those as hidden referral sources.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:42.880
So I'll give you an example.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:50.400
I did a training session with my referral marketing club the other day, and I asked them to do a homework assignment.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.640
And I encourage everyone listening to this podcast do the same homework assignment.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:24:00.240
Ask your friends and family, do you know what I do and who I help?
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:12.880
You would be sadly surprised how many people who are your family members and your friends who you think know what you do and who you help.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.160
But spoiler, they don't.
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:24.480
They need you to remind them because then they start to forget and they're not thinking about you every day of their life.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:36.079
So you have to stay top of mind with them and you have to repeat what you do and who you help, even to your family members and your friends.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.799
I clearly am Mexican.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.200
My mom is the youngest of 12.
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.119
I have 57 first cousins just on my mom's side.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.480
I have 60 altogether.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:54.079
And so if you asked me to tell you what all my cousins did, I'd be like, I have no idea.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:25:00.480
I just found out the other day, one of my cousins is the top insurance agent in Texas.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:05.279
And I was like, oh my God, cuz I had no idea you sold insurance.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.319
Like, I should be introducing you to some of my PI clients.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:13.680
And he's like, I know you work with lawyers, but I'm not actually like 100% sure what you do.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.839
I just know if I need a lawyer, I'm probably gonna ask you for a referral.
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:28.880
And so I use those examples because they're people you interact with on a daily basis, I promise you, do not know what you do and who you help.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.799
You think they do, but just do the homework assignment.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:39.839
The next people you interact with for the next four to eight hours and you see them on a regular basis, say, Hey, Nick, question.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.559
Do you know what I do and who I help?
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:44.559
And just don't say anything.
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:45.839
See what they say.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:52.640
I do this exercise with myself probably once a quarter with people I know and interact with just to see what they answer.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:59.920
And it helps me understand if I need to refine my message or I need to talk more about what it is that I do and who I help.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.240
So your hidden referral sources first, family and friends.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:10.640
You might not think about it, but your family and friends are not super clear on what you do and who you help.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:16.880
So do not hesitate to tell your family and friends what you do and who you help.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:24.400
The next layer is going to be all the people outside of your family and friends you interact with on a daily basis.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.880
And you take those people for granted.
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:34.400
Think about your neighbors, think about the parents if you have kids that your kids have play dates with all the time.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:40.160
Think about your doctors, think about the people you meet at church if you go to church.
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:46.240
Think about your friends that you play activities with if you're into sports and you have extracurricular activities.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:53.680
They are all around you, but they can all be sending you cases if you remind them what you do and who you help.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:01.119
And the other places, Facebook groups, people forget how much gold is in Facebook groups.
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:07.759
I'm a part of a mom's group, I'm a part of a Girl Scouts group, all those groups, they ask for referrals all the time.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.880
And so those places are good too.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:18.960
And the last hidden place, and it surprises people and it makes them sick to their stomach, your staff.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:29.920
Law firm owners think their staff are really good about being advocates of their law firm and that they would bring in cases if they could because they work in your law firm.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.640
And so clearly they would refer your law firm.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:51.680
But it's not until I ask them, what have you done to train and help your law firm staff feel comfortable reaching out to a family member or a friend or a loved one and referring your law firm or a referral partner's law firm to someone when they need it?
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.640
And I'll give you an example: personal injury.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:59.920
Personal injury lawyers are like my law firm staff would obviously refer a case.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.359
They work here, they know what we do and they know who we help.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:04.720
They would do it.
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.640
But I would challenge those lawyers and say, do they though?
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.160
Because I promise you, intake and marketing could feel comfortable doing it.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:26.000
But when someone has been seriously hurt, do they feel comfortable knowing what to say to that person they care about in the moment on how to refer the case and take personal injury out of it?
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.319
Criminal defense, probate, family law.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.880
I mean, when you call a lawyer, it's not because you're doing something fun and amazing, right?
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.400
You call a lawyer because you need help with a really life-changing moment.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:51.279
And your staff are hidden referral sources because you forget to train them on how to refer business to your law firm in a way that's comfortable for them.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:29:05.119
Because your paralegal might be great at working up a case, but your paralegal might not feel comfortable knowing how to tell her best friend whose mom just passed away what she needs to do to probate a will.
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:19.279
And your accounting manager might have a family member who's going through a divorce and they don't know how to appropriately say, you know, Aunt Denise, I am sorry you're going through this.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.680
None of us ever liked him anyway.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:28.160
But what do you say to that person you care about in the moment that feels natural for them?
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:38.000
If you train your staff and have those conversations to equip them with the tools they need to refer business to your law firm, your staff can be that person too.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:41.519
And to make it full circle, and I'll finish right here.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:50.799
One of the things I'll train my law firm owners on is training their staff to know who their referral partners are.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.119
Because life happens to everybody.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:03.839
And if your paralegal knows you send all your family law cases to Nick's law firm, if they're in a mom's group that says, Hey, does anyone know a family lawyer?
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.480
I'm getting a divorce and I don't know who to call.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:12.640
I want my law firm staff person to say, hey, I work at the Clark Law firm.
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.920
And I know whenever we have a family law case, we all send it to Nick's law firm because he's the best.
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:22.720
And then my law firm staff just referred a case to one of my referral partners.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.799
And I want to train that staff member to come to me and tell me when they do that.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:34.240
So then I can call Nick's office and say, hey, my um, my law firm staff just referred a divorce case to you.
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:35.680
I hope they reach out.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:48.000
Imagine how amazing you would feel if you were Nick's law firm and you got that phone call and you're like, oh my God, they train their staff to refer cases to me.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.279
Amazing.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:52.079
All those referrals are around you.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.559
You just need to remember to have those conversations.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:57.119
And if it's your staff, train your staff to do it.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:58.480
They're all around you.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.880
Tell people what you do and who you help.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.880
And don't forget to train your staff how to refer cases to you, too.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:06.960
That was gold.
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.400
I don't have 57 cousins.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.000
I bet you I don't have 57 family members.
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:20.559
However, I do have one uh like family that my family is particularly close with.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:22.880
I think it's my mom's first cousin.
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:27.279
And then her kids are my cousins, their second cousins, I guess.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:33.279
Anyway, I don't this is such a good example of what you're talking about because it's so true.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.119
I didn't know what my younger cousin did professionally.
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:46.160
Um, I know where she went to school, what she was interested in, and I guess she didn't know a hundred percent what I do professionally.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:56.799
And one night, because I am admittedly a recovering workaholic, I am sitting in my living room and I get an email because I'm crazy.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:06.480
I read the email, and it's this very long, well-written email, and I am sure that she wrote it because this was this predates ChatGPT, and she's also very, very, very intelligent.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:12.400
And it's this really well-written email detailing what this firm actually needs in terms of call answering.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.599
They have a specific outline that they needed created.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:16.640
It was really cool.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.839
It was a really cool use case.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:22.319
And I read the whole email and it's signed Allie Pateau.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:28.880
And I say, Allie Pateau, that has to there's no other Allie Pateaux out there.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.839
That has to be my cousin.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.519
This is eight o'clock at night.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:32.720
So I texted her.
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:37.839
I'm like, are you the Allie Pateau that just sent answering legal an email looking?
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:39.920
And she was like, I really thought it was you.
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:41.359
I should have texted you.
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:48.160
And I so thank God I intercepted it because I was able to be like, oh, my cousin, like, you know, facilitate, right?
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.119
Um, thank her appropriately and all that.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:33:02.480
But neither of us knew what the other person did for sure, which is totally different from because I communicate with my grandmother about professional things because that's just our lives.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:08.640
When she needed help, she legitimately called me in the middle of a work day and was like, I'm firing the answering service right now.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:09.680
I need your answer.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.039
This is like eight or nine years ago, and I thought it was so cool.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.000
I was like, business, referrals, relationships, all that stuff.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.079
Um, I want to ask you something else.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:28.640
So I spend because I am obsessed with self-improvement, really truly, um, because I spent a lot of time being stagnant and then I didn't know a lot of things and it overwhelmed me.
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:30.400
And so I never really wanted to feel like that again.
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:32.319
I want to be able, I want to be open to learning.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.440
And so now consume information, probably too much.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:47.039
I'm on Reddit forums about like legal marketing, marketing, Facebook advertising, SEO, and a lot of it is is just psycho babble and people putting up fake posts to scam you.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:50.960
But there was one that really caught my attention and it had a lot of uh traction.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:51.680
It was really cool.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:34:00.160
It was a lawyer who was on, I believe it was just r slash marketing, and he was saying, I have this new practice in this area, it's really competitive.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:01.440
I'm really nervous.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:07.599
Everybody keeps telling me I need this huge budget, and I got this quote from some marketing company that I'm vaguely familiar with.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.039
I don't know if they do a good job or not.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:10.559
I have no connection with them.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.639
And he was like, Ah, I'm nervous and this and that, and other people were chiming in.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:17.519
You don't need that, you don't need this, you don't need that.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.039
And it was a disaster.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:31.760
So I threw my proverbial two cents into the ring and just said, Hey, you, I don't think, are being given a fair shake at what you need.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:36.800
You're making assumptions about what you need, and these people are telling you that they want to sell you a product.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:41.920
I know this person who owns this uh law firm marketing agency.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:35:00.239
Personally, I know that they will give you the best evaluation of your market and what your and and understand your goals and your business objectives and growth objectives and budget and all of that, and will custom tailor you what they believe would be the best move for you going forward with no high pressure sales tactics.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:07.119
And I was just like, I threw it out there, I put a name into the ether and I never followed up because I don't really I don't really want the credit, to be honest with you.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:08.880
But you think they just want to help?
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:19.840
I just want to help and think of right and I want I I kind of want to ask you, because you probably know the ramifications of this better than me, but I have this thing with my team that we call mobilizing your base, right?
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:26.239
Which is doing such a good job that people talk about you behind your back really well without wanting credit for it.
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:31.440
Is that something that you believe that you can really affect by by doing this sort of thing?
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:47.280
When you get really good at maintaining relationships and obviously doing really good or providing really over-the-top stellar experiences for your customers and and really your referral partners, all these relationships, right?
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:55.039
Is it a phenomenon that more stuff just comes to you that you can't really attribute because people are just talking about you kindly behind your back?
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.800
I think, and I will attribute Brian Glass to this.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.679
I love to ask the question, and who can I thank for the referral?
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:08.960
I asked that in my business because I heard Brian Glass say that on one of his podcast episodes.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:10.639
I'm like, that's genius.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:22.719
But I also encourage the law firms that I consult with to ask a question like that during intake because it's great when you can find out how someone was referred your name.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.559
And unless you say that, intake might say, How did you hear about us?
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:35.360
And they say Google, but then they forget to say, but because Nick referred me, and then I went to Google to find your name and number.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.840
And so you don't get the information.
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:48.159
But I think when you do really great work and people are happy with the product and the result, they become your cheerleaders.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:37:03.119
They become your raving fans, as we say in marketing, and they refer business to you, but they do it so casually because they believe it and they're not looking for anything in return that you might not find out.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:05.039
It was them who referred you.
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:12.719
Sometimes that happens and you don't know who referred the case or referred the business to you until a little bit later.
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:15.280
And then you can thank that person.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:20.559
But sometimes I won't find out another lawyer referred a lawyer to me until later on.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:21.840
We'll be having a conversation.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.760
They're like, Yeah, you know, John mentioned that to me when he told me to call you.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:27.519
And I'll say, What are you talking about?
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.599
You said you found me on LinkedIn.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:31.199
I didn't know you know John.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:37.920
And then they're like, Well, yeah, John's the one who told me to follow you and that you'd give me all these great tips on how to gift.
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.800
And so, yes, it happens all the time.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:42.480
And I'm a huge fan of it.
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:43.840
I love when that happens.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:48.320
I think that's a great sign that you're giving great experience to your clients.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:50.400
Wow, that's really cool.
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.159
Sorry, you got my wheels turning.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:52.719
Okay.
00:37:52.880 --> 00:38:01.199
Last thing I want to ask you because and so before you asked your question, then I'm gonna bring back to your cousin example.
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:10.480
When you gave the example of your cousin who sent you that email and your cousin didn't really know what you did, and you didn't really know what she did.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.239
Like, what happened after that?
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:18.480
Did that moment change your perspective on telling people what you do and who you help?
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.599
Like, how has that changed what you do ever since that example?
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.079
Because not everyone has an example like that.
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:33.440
I will say that I was not cognizant of your advice until just now, where I should let people know what I do.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:36.239
Um, especially in like all contexts, right?
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:42.239
Maybe I can help, maybe I can point you in the right direction, maybe I can help facilitate you finding a lawyer because you're not comfortable.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:43.840
And I have done that, right?
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.079
Because some people do actually know what I do.
00:38:46.320 --> 00:39:06.320
However, I, admittedly, in a wrong sense, was always one of those people who you ever see funny stories that people will say of, I got an Uber and I'm talking to the Uber guy, and he asks me what I do, and I say digital marketing, and the Uber guy says back to me, Oh, so you work for Google.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:10.079
I'm always like, nobody understands it anyway.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:18.079
You know, I try to explain that I do marketing, and people are like, So you do marketing for answering legal, so you help lawyers and you do their marketing?
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:23.280
No, but onus is on me to let people know what I actually do.
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.119
So I was not cognizant of that.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:38.320
It has just become a funny story at Thanksgiving that the one time I intercepted an email from my cousin who I didn't, again, admittedly, see as a professional because I always she's just like my little cousin, you know what I mean?
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:45.840
Like so I have to be more and I don't even do this on LinkedIn, and people have pointed this out to me.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.960
I'm never looking for somebody to just send me stuff.
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:57.679
I I go on LinkedIn and I post stuff that I think is interesting about weird thoughts that I have, and I never tie it back into and if you think this, you should check out an answer.
00:39:57.920 --> 00:39:58.880
I I don't do that.
00:39:59.119 --> 00:39:59.760
So maybe I should.
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:03.280
Then I then I have I have a tip for you then.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:14.639
Some people don't do it because it feels salesy and it feels not like the person they are and it doesn't feel authentic to them.
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:21.280
And whenever someone tells me that, the advice I give is okay, don't ask for something for yourself.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.000
Ask for something for them.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:36.079
So the example I'll give is let's say you're at Thanksgiving and you're around the table and one of your cousins or your aunts or your uncles, someone tells a story about something that happened at work recently, right?
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:37.679
We all have that conversation.
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:49.920
It's okay to follow up with it and say something like, Hey, Aunt John or Aunt Joan, how would I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:51.519
I like to ask that question.
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.119
And by the way, that's not me.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:55.280
Um, oh, the book's not up there.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:59.199
Um, I'm rereading the book Endless Referrals by Bob Berg.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.880
And it's a question Bob Berg encourages everyone to ask.
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:07.119
How do I know if someone I'm speaking to is a good referral for you?
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:12.880
And now you're asking that question to understand how to know who to refer to them.
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:29.519
And you're giving them a reason to tell you, well, you know, the best referral for me is a personal injury lawyer in Texas who handles car crashes, but they need someone to send their trucking litigation cases to.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:30.000
Great.
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:31.519
Now I know who to refer.
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:33.599
Here's the flip part of that.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:43.920
Usually that will be followed up with, and Nick, how do I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:48.400
And if it doesn't happen naturally, then you can bring it up naturally.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.639
You can bring it up next time, whatever you want to do.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:57.920
But I like to encourage people to ask the question how do I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:12.960
Because Bob Berg was definitely on to something when he said that's a great question to ask, because I would rather find out how to refer someone to you and then see if you're gonna ask me how to refer a case back to me.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:23.920
Because when someone answers that question and asks me what I do in return to me, that means they understand this should be a reciprocal referral relationship.
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:30.800
Or them asking the question in return tells me they care about referrals too, and I know what to expect.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:38.559
If they don't ask the question back, then I'm like, huh, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't expect a referral in return from that person.
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:41.920
This is just me understanding what they do and who they help.
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:47.840
And so if it feels weird to you and you don't like it, don't say anything about yourself.
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:55.039
Just ask, you know, what a good referral looks like for that other person, and then they'll tell you when you ask the question.
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.159
I love that.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:57.039
I'm gonna do it.
00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:57.840
I didn't think of it.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:42:59.199
It's all Bob Bird, not me.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:00.239
You know what though?
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:08.880
I have not had many original ideas in my life, and someone very smart told me that they have never had any original ideas in their life and they don't plan to.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.280
But I am open to the idea that I might one day think of something smart.
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.599
I actually And then share it with the world.
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:16.400
Yes.
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:20.880
So I actually and that is something else that I I'm like, I have secrets and my strategies.
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.239
No, just everybody else can can know things.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.239
I saw, I swear.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:31.519
And first of all, my mom's name is Joan, so that was I didn't even know it.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:32.880
Classic, classic Joan.
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:33.440
Classic.
00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:36.239
So when we're sitting there, everybody's saying, Aunt Joni, Aunt Joni, Aunt Joni.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:37.280
So I'm very used to that.
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:38.719
And whose name Joan, right?
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:39.760
I don't know that many Joan's.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:40.480
I actually know Joan.
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:41.920
I don't know very many either.
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:46.000
So it was my way of like fixing the mess up when I said Aunt John.
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:47.440
I was like, no, that doesn't make sense.
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:48.800
Aunt Joan, there you go.
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:51.760
And yeah, well, I'll John is more common.
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.719
Joan is not.
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:57.360
Okay, I have I do have one more question for you because you you did kind of cover this.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:58.960
Okay, I'm gonna tell the story.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:03.280
I in the morning spent a little too much time on social media.
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:12.079
This morning, uh before I left, I was on Instagram, and it's just this uh like farmer looking guy standing.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:18.239
He's sipping a cup of coffee uh in front of his nice like farmhouse and captions come across the screen.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:37.599
Long story short, it's uh my neighbor came to me and he said he couldn't do anything in his house because he needed Wi-Fi and if I would share the password, but it didn't cost me anything, so I gave him the password to the Wi-Fi and he comes outside a couple days later, and he's very excited to tell me that he got Netflix and he's been watching these shows on Netflix.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.239
I, you know, I've been working really hard, haven't had any time to like watch any TV shows, but he's giving me this recommendation, but I don't have Netflix.
00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:47.519
So I ask him if he would give me the password to his Netflix account.
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.880
And his wife shouts from the window, I can't give you the password to the Netflix account because I pay for it.
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.519
He's like, Oh, okay, that's like really unfortunate.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.079
And a day later, he gets a knock on the door and the wife is like, What happened?
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:01.840
Like, I can't access my Netflix account.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:08.719
He says, Well, I paid for the Wi-Fi and uh I I changed password because I I pay for it and like I can't share it.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:16.559
And so you not baiting people into, but you want to know about the person that you're potentially gonna refer stuff to and like their character, right?
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:22.559
I wouldn't want to refer if I met you right now on this podcast and I was like, oh, delicious, like I don't know.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:24.559
I'd never refer anybody to her.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:26.800
You know, I I wouldn't want to do that, right?
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.840
I want to know your character.
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.039
I want to talk to you a little bit, I want to find out what you're about, what you believe, how you help people, how you conduct business.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.000
Are you reliable?
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:35.039
Do I like you?
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:35.679
I do.
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:42.320
So my my final question is besides just that, what are red flags?
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:47.920
What are some red flags to look out for in a referral partner or a potential referral partner, really?
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:53.039
Red flags to look out for would be someone who doesn't communicate well.
00:45:53.280 --> 00:46:01.280
That's definitely one of the red flags, just in general, because lack of communication is the number one cause of bar grievances in the United States.
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:06.079
So a referral partner who doesn't communicate well is a big red flag for me.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:09.920
Going back to the phrase, how you do anything is how you do everything.
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:13.199
They don't communicate with you in your referral source.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:19.599
Literally, someone who's trying to refer them business, I'm gonna go ahead and take a pretty safe gamble.
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.000
They don't communicate all that well with their clients.
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:31.360
Another red flag for me is probably gonna be definitely number two, anyone who doesn't treat their staff right or your staff right.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:41.920
If I ever hear of someone who disrespects someone on my team, I'm immediately not going to be sending them any more cases.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:47.039
If you feel comfortable disrespecting my team, you're probably doing the same with your team.
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:52.960
And it's never okay to treat my staff inappropriately.
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:56.400
And so that's a huge red flag for me as well.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:05.599
Another red flag for me, in the same vein as communication, is going to be if someone ghosts me, you know, communication and ghosting go hand in hand.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:13.679
But if I'm trying to reach out to a referral partner over and over and they're just not responding at all, that's not even a red flag anymore.
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:18.079
It's like a like a siren going off in my mind.
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:22.800
So communication twice in a variety of ways is going to be another one.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:31.119
And the other thing I would say would be if you have clients who you refer to case to and they tell you they didn't have a good experience.
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:36.159
Because one thing that's really hard, and this has happened to me a couple of times.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.880
I will refer a case to another lawyer.
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:40.559
I refer cases all week.
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:46.800
Every single week, I refer a case to another lawyer because people know if they ask me who to call, I'll tell them exactly who to fall.
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:55.760
There have been instances where I will get a phone call and someone will say, Hey, you told me to call Lawrence.
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:57.119
I called Lawrence.
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:02.159
He signed up my case, and now he is not responding to any of my phone calls.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:04.400
And I'm getting really frustrated, Dele.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:19.760
And so I now have to call Lawrence and say, Hey, Lawrence, I need you to know you're putting me in a weird predicament right now because I referred Kathy to you, and now Kathy is blowing up my phone, saying no one in your office is returning her phone call.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:31.039
And I will do that and give Lawrence the benefit of the doubt and be a professional who calls him because I want to know how Lawrence responds to that.
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:36.960
Because how that lawyer responds is gonna tell me if it's a red flag or if it's a green flag.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:42.800
A green flag would be if Lauren says, Oh my gosh, Jelisi, thank you so much for telling me that.
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:47.840
I'm gonna go look up my notes and my case management system right now and talk to my staff and see what's going on.
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:49.039
I'm so sorry.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.159
I'll get back to you in 24 hours and we'll make this right.
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:57.599
Red flag is gonna be if Lawrence is like, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.320
She's probably blowing it out of proportion.
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:05.440
It's fine and blows me off too, or doesn't respond at all.
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:12.239
And so how that person responds to a scenario like that is gonna tell me whether it's a red flag or not.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:17.039
And I will always give someone the benefit of the doubt because there are crazy clients out there.
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:18.800
Let's be honest, there are.
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:24.400
There are crazy clients who think their lawyers should call them back every 30 minutes and they need to have their cell phones.
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:25.360
I get that.
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:30.480
But how you respond to those situations tells me a lot about your character.
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:39.679
And so I'm paying attention to how someone responds to a scenario like that and using that to determine whether or not they're a red flag.
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.400
And so those are probably my top ones.
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:48.159
And if I think about everything I just said to you, almost all of them have to do with communication.
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:51.039
I mean, communication is just so key.
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:54.960
Someone else might say, well, if they don't refer you a case back, that's a red flag.
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:58.079
And I would challenge them and say, no, not necessarily.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:04.559
If you're referring a case to another practice area and you expect a case back in a month, is that realistic?
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:13.119
I mean, if you're a criminal defense firm and you're sending cases to a family law lawyer, how many referrals for criminal defense cases do you think they get a month?
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:14.800
What if the answer is zero?
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.960
What if it's once or twice a year?
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:19.039
So it might not be a red flag.
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.159
It might just be you need to have better expectations.
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:26.400
And maybe you just become really good friends and go like fishing or play pickleball.
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.000
People play pickleball all the time now.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:28.719
Yeah.
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:29.360
Yeah.
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:32.079
You need to know what kind of relationship you're having.
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:35.840
So, okay, I'm gonna prove that I learned something here.
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:38.559
Because like I told you, I do, I really do love to learn.
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:43.519
I'm being a hundred percent earnest when I tell you that like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn trying to learn.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.280
Sometimes, sometimes LinkedIn is a little dry on the learning, we're gonna be honest.
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:52.400
So usually I end this podcast, but I am going to amend this by asking.
00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:59.760
I'm gonna I usually ask for anyone in our audience who wants to follow your work or connect with you further, but I'm gonna take it a step further now.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:00.239
Okay.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:05.199
What is the best way for me to refer people to you?
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:11.679
How do I help people get in contact with you who who may need to speak with you or who I believe should speak with you?
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:17.119
You can make an introduction to me via LinkedIn.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:23.280
I'm a huge fan of introductions done through a direct message on LinkedIn if they're on LinkedIn.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:33.440
If they are not on LinkedIn, I will give you my work email and you can introduce me via email, and I'll give you my cell phone.
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:37.360
So you can just send me a text and say, hey, Deleace, just sent you an email.
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:42.000
I have a referral for you so I know to respond right away.
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.599
And that would be the best way to make an introduction.
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:53.840
I'm a big believer in like custom introductions, not just saying, hey, go visit firstcallfriday.com and fill out the contact form.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.480
When it comes to referrals, I like to personalize them.
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.559
So those would be the two ways that I would suggest.
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.800
Yeah, I'm actually the same way.
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:02.480
I like to be like a little involved.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:03.280
It makes me feel good.
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:08.079
It's not that I want the credit, it's that like, hey, you Ted Lasso says this.
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:11.440
Congratulations, you both just met a really cool person, right?
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:12.480
Oh, I love that.
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:13.760
Did you watch Ted Lasso?
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:14.639
Oh, heck yeah.
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:20.239
Oh, I was gonna say like the living Ted Lasso, but in the United States, and he doesn't coach soccer.
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:21.519
I don't coach soccer.
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:22.880
I used to have a better mustache.
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:28.719
My wife didn't really like my mustache, but I was Ted Lasso for Halloween, and I like to think that I am Ted Lasso.
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:36.400
Or at least I tried to behave like Ted Lasso would behave, except a little more rough around the edges, which we're gonna work on.
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:38.880
We can all use some more Ted Lasso's.
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:42.639
Be curious, not judgmental, but that's Walt Whitman, not Ted Lasso.
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:44.000
But you get what I'm saying.
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:46.079
Anyway, I want to thank you so much for joining me today.
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:50.320
Seriously, I learned so much, but I want to give a special thank you to our listeners.
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:51.840
We hope you enjoyed this conversation.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:52.559
I'm sure you did.
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:56.239
We will be back with another episode of Everything Except the Law soon.
00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:01.360
Be sure to check out previous episodes of our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and the Answer Illegal YouTube channel.
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.360
If you want to talk to Deleci, please let me know.
00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:05.039
I'm Nick at AnswerIle.com.
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:10.960
You can find me and and all of Delease's links in the description of this episode everywhere that you're listening or watching to it.
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:12.639
We'll see you next time, everyone.
00:00:00.959 --> 00:00:05.519
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I am your host, Nick Worker.
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:15.200
If this is your first time tuning in, this is the podcast where we share expert advice on all the parts of running a law firm that attorneys weren't exactly trained for back in law school.
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I never get tired of saying that.
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With me today, I have Delecie Friday, the founder and owner of First Call Friday.
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We have a lot to get into in this episode.
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But first, I want to have fun.
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I want to ask you a question and find out more about you.
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And we do like a like a pre-interview.
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We want to make sure like we know a little bit about you before we dive in.
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So I have only been in, and I will tell you the story, one fight ever.
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But usually when people discuss their first fight or like a fight story, it includes like a sibling or maybe a classmate.
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But your story is a little different, and I'm very eager to learn more about this.
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But who was your first fight with?
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I mean, my first one is obviously my sister's.
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Okay, that's fair.
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But but um I think probably the most interesting one is Kim Kardashian.
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And I think I would like to describe it as maybe a not ideal interaction because I don't want to get into this legal battle with the Kardashians.
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However, I mean, is it really a legal battle if it's true?
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That's not libel or slander.
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So, fun fact, Kim Kardashian's been married a few times.
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Her first husband is a famous music producer named Damon Thomas.
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And after Kim and Damon divorced, I dated Damon.
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So that's how I met Kim Kardashian because after they divorced, Damon and I were out at a private members-only event, something celebrities do and they don't want to be out and worried about people taking photos of them and sending things to the paparazzi.
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She was there with Paris Hilton at the time.
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They were best friends.
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So this does date me.
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And I went up to them to go say hi.
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Because I thought if if she's giving me oval, as as my family says, I should go say hi and introduce myself because I'm just that southern Texas girl.
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I didn't know any better.
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And so when I went up, um we did not have an ideal interaction.
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And thankfully, Damon had a bodyguard who whisked me away and took me out of that situation.
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And I learned that night what his bodyguard was for.
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And so that was my first and last interaction with Kim Kardashian.
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Funny enough, I actually saw Paris Holton a few weeks later.
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It was the night that she met Matt Linert.
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They ended up dating for a while and she was fine.
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I mean, we said hi to each other, had some small talk.
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Janet Jackson taught me that night that strawberries pair with champagne as one would.
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And that's just a typical LA night back in the day.
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So I have tons of those stories, but the moral of the story is I will never share all the details because trust and confidentiality are so important to me.
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And I want all those people to still trust me to be around them, just like the lawyers do who hire me.
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So with me, I'm always gonna be that person who will have a juicy story, but I'm just not gonna give you all the details.
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But that makes you an international woman of mystery.
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And isn't that more appealing maybe to me?
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My first fight I'll write my tell-all book.
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And I will buy it.
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My first fight is really not extraordinary at all.
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I was underage drinking at a bar in an upstate college, and I said something mouthy to a friend of mine who shoved me, and when I went to go get back up, because he shoved me to the floor, I went to go get back up.
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I was lifted off of my I am a grown man.
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I am six feet tall.
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I was lifted off of my feet and picked up outside of this establishment and put down nicely on the ground.
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I don't know how a person could lift another human being like that, but to this day, I was like, wow, I am a tiny baby, and I can be picked up and moved to another location through modality.
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Hey, you know what?
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It just makes us appreciate people like that.
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Yeah.
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It was still so small.
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It could I've seen videos of bouncers handling things a lot differently, and this guy very peacefully removed me, which I am grateful for because I did not get hurt.
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So our our fighting, well, I hope your fighting days are behind you.
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I have not uh been in a fight in a long time, mostly because I am scared.
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But can you share a little bit about what you're doing with law firms right now for people who might not be familiar with like the because it's new, right?
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First call Friday is is really new.
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It's exciting, but like what like what's going on?
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I started First Call Friday February of 2025.
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So yes, it is very new.
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Thank you.
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What do I do?
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I help lawyers make friends who refer them cases.
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So that's my magic statement, which I encourage all lawyers to do so people remember what people do and who they help.
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But essentially, I help lawyers connect with other lawyers so they can send cases to each other.
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And I help lawyers think of different ways to market to former clients.
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Because hello, your former clients can all be referring you business, and they're the best people to refer you business because they already know what you do, who you help.
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And those personal referrals, I mean, they're just so strong.
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That's gonna convert higher than any ad ever can because that personal referral carries a level of trust that you can't buy.
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That's what I do.
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All referral marketing.
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I often tell this, it's not really a story, it's it's just a part of my upbringing.
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That my grandmother, uh still to this day, I will not age her, runs.
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I like to say she runs a personal injury law firm in Brooklyn because I have to imagine that my grandmother, I know her very well.
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I know her personality, she runs this place.
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And I would always, like, I wanted to go to law school and I would hang out with the lawyer.
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Um, they're very close.
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They've been together for I can't say how long they've been together for.
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Sorry.
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Uh, if my grandmother watches this ever, she will kill me.
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So I would always ask him questions like, oh, like, what do you do if this happens?
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Or what do you do if this happens?
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And I once asked him, because I I had no semblance of like a specialized practice.
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He practices uh personal injury, and it's a lot of bicycle accidents in Brooklyn because people ride their bikes.
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And I would be like, Oh, like, is it so cool when you like defend somebody and you go to court?
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Like, all this stuff.
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What what do I know?
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And he's like, I don't do that.
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And I'm like, Well, then what do you do?
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And he explains it to me.
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And I say, Well, what happens if someone calls you for that type of case?
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Because you have a big name.
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And he says, I refer it out.
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And I started learning about like how lawyers actually do that, then come to start working here at Answer in Legal.
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I was a terrible, terrible salesman.
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And a few years ago it was a lot more common for people to say, I have a general practice, and so they don't refer out cases.
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But now when you speak to someone, we will consult with them.
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What type of cases do you handle?
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What type of cases are your ideal cases?
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And if something comes in, we don't, by policy, tell the caller that you don't handle this case.
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We'll send you this whole thing and we'll let them know, or we'll let them know whatever you want them to know.
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But you refer it out as you see fit, and we don't get into that um mumbo jumbo, right?
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So I started learning about like how you should have these relationships, but I've been learning so much more from you.
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So I want to get really into it.
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I don't I don't want to talk about anything other than that.
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What is it that you help lawyers do to encourage them to how do you facilitate this?
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So, first it starts with a discovery meeting because I need to look at their data and ask them a bunch of questions before I can provide any kind of opinions on any of it.
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And so I'll give you an example, what you just mentioned.
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During my discovery call, one of the things I'm asking them is what happens when someone calls your law firm and it's a case that you do not accept.
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What do you do?
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And if they don't have a system in place for how to refer those cases out to someone else, that's one of the first places that I start.
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Because think about how much it takes to get someone just to make that one phone call.
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You have someone who is looking to hire a lawyer and looking to take an action.
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It just so happens it doesn't match your case acceptance criteria.
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If you just say, I'm so sorry, that's not something we do, we hang up.
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Oh my gosh, like my heart hurts.
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I want to immediately help you fix that one part of your business because everyone should be referring out those cases to someone who can help them.
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And so what I do is I'll start asking them different questions, where I start with the very beginning.
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What are you doing with the cases you can't accept?
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If you're not sending those, what would be rejected cases to a referral partner and using that to create referral relationships, that's where we have to start.
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A hundred percent that's where we have to start because all of those referrals can be relationships you're creating with other law firms who in turn are gonna want to send you a case back because you're sending them business.
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I mean, if people could see the video of us just like hand gesturing and making faces right now, because you know what I'm talking about and I know what you're talking about, that is gold right there.
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So, yes, I start with that and I help talk them through what that looks like if they haven't done it.
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So let's say one of your clients says, Hey, Nick, um, I hear what you're saying.
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I understand that's important, but I don't have relationships with all those people.
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So, what I'll do is I will help coach them through how to do that.
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So, here's a free tip for anyone listening and who isn't going to hire me yet.
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If you're trying to figure out who you can refer those cases to, one, ask your colleagues who you already have relationships with and who you trust.
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Say, hey, Nick, when I get a family law case in, it's not something that we handle.
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Who do you send your family law cases to?
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And see if your friend Nick has a recommendation.
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Great.
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Um, can you make an introduction to Jan?
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I would love to meet Jan and see if I can refer my family law cases to Jan.
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And now I know that the relationship I'm creating with Jan is one that Nick referred me to.
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So I'm more likely to trust Jan because Nick is my friend.
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I know I can trust Nick.
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And so if he refers me a Jan, then I appreciate that.
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And we both have Nick in common.
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So that's easy.
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If someone's listening to this and says, I don't have a Nick though, like I like I don't know who to ask for referral to a family law lawyer.
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Go on LinkedIn and ask your colleagues on LinkedIn.
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If you start to notice in that post, the same lawyer is getting recommended like five times.
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Well, I think you just found your referral partner because that person clearly has a great reputation if so many people are referring them to you.
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And here's like advanced Nintendo for you.
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Let's say you're like, okay, Delisi, I don't want to use LinkedIn and I don't have friends.
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I am an introvert and none of this applies to me.
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I'm not like you, and that's okay.
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Then my recommendation to you is to go on Google and do a search for family law attorney and see which attorneys pop up and have ads.
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Why?
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Well, because the person who's spending money on ads probably has an intake team because they need to answer all of those phone calls, right?
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You don't want to spend ad money and you don't have someone answering the call.
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So they have an intake team, they probably have 24-7 phone service as well.
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And then you can go and you can look at the reviews and see who has good reviews and start having conversations with those people.
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And so if you're gonna refer a case to someone, you want to make sure you're referring it to someone who has their business put together well.
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And I would start creating a relationship with those people.
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The second part of that is whoever's spending money on ads and has that system in place probably has calls that come in for case types they don't accept.
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So when you start to build that relationship, then you can say, hey, Nick, you know what?
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I've been sending you those family law cases.
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And I know a few of them have worked out.
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I would love for this to be a reciprocal relationship.
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Do you ever get criminal defense cases?
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Because I would love to earn your criminal defense case referrals.
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You start at intake.
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You start at intake and you start with your rejected cases because that is easy money.
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You can make that change today.
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I love and I wanted to give you a little like yelp of excitement when you started your discovery with any lawyer, right?
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And you put the onus on them.
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You're not like, oh, you sit around and wait and call people up and ask for referrals.
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No, if you get a rejected case, which inevitably you will, send that to somebody that you know, like, and trust.
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Or maybe, right, how I would do it.
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If I was an introvert, which I am not, I would do, say I had no friends, I had I don't have a a DeleC, I don't have anybody.
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I would go to Google.
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Um, no, I I jumped the gun, ADHD.
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I would tell the person who called me, hey, I'd love to help you connect with a really great lawyer who can help you with this problem because it's an important one.
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Um, give me eight hours with which to do this research, I will get back to you.
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And it's just a recommendation.
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You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do.
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You're building the relationship, right?
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You're making the first move.
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You're not relying on the universe to come knock on your door and start sending you referrals because it's most likely not going to happen.
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I shouldn't say never.
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Say you say you successfully set up this relationship, right?
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You make the first move, you send a referral partner to uh a referral partner, you send uh uh a case to a potential referral partner, you call them up, you have this nice conversation, it goes really well.
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What do you do from there?
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I do a few things and I'll share them in order.
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So, first, when I transfer that call to the referral partner, one of the things I make sure I do is tell my referral partner as much information I already know about the case.
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So the potential new client doesn't have to repeat themselves for the 75th time and then get annoyed by it.
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I do that for two reasons.
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One, because I don't want that PNC to be annoyed, they're repeating themselves again.
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Two, I want my referral partner to know when I refer a case, I'm gonna refer it nicely.
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I'm going to do a warm transfer.
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I'm gonna tell you about the case so you don't have to ask all the same questions because how you do anything is how you do everything.
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If I make that warm transfer and it's a great experience for you, you're probably gonna be like, man, if that's a rejected call transfer to me, imagine what it would be like when they actually handle a case.
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So once I make that transfer, I would have intake or anyone in the office follow up with that law firm and say, Hey, law firm, I referred Nick to you earlier today, or I referred Nick to you yesterday.
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I just wanted to check in and see if that referral worked out.
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And the reason why I do that is because I want to know if the cases I'm referring to Nick's law firm are converting.
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I'm following up because I'm trying to build a relationship.
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I'm following up because I want to remind them how many cases I'm sending their way.
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And if Nick says, No, I'm sorry, we didn't accept that case, then I can ask the question, okay, can you tell me why?
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I want to understand your case acceptance criteria.
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So when I send you a case, I know it's a case you're gonna accept.
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And if Nick says, look, the reason we didn't accept that case is because Maria got married in Texas and our law firm is located in Illinois.
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She didn't tell us that she's only here in Illinois for a small amount of time during the divorce, but her home is actually in Texas and we got a file in Texas.
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And I was like, oh, okay, that's good to know.
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And so I'm building a relationship with the referral.
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The next thing I do after that, I'm calling that potential new client that I transferred to the law firm partner, and I'm saying, hey, Maria, I just want to check in with you.
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Was Nick's office able to help you?
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They were.
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Oh, great.
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We are so happy they were able to assist you.
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Maria, can I ask you a favor?
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If I send you this Google review link, do you mind leaving a review of your experience?
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There are a lot of people out there who get really nervous about calling law firms.
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And it would be so helpful if you could help us by leaving a review of your experience so other people feel comfortable calling us for help.
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Now I've gotten a Google review out of a rejected case, and I'm creating a partnership with that law firm I just sent to the case, and that is efficient marketing.
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You are really good at this.
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Um it's so well spoken, too.
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.960
Like off the top of your head, you uh but you do it all day.
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:24.640
So it's like I do it all day.
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.400
This is this is my jam, Nick.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:27.599
This is my jam.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:29.279
I love it.
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.960
So you have the referral uh partnership like set up.
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:43.599
You you know your your your SOP for contacting the person who called you and the firm and learning more about what type of case this person handles and this person handles.
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.119
You get that all set up, right?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:50.720
How then do you evaluate those relationships, right?
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.920
Because I I'll give you a good example.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:59.759
I have people that I refer business to because we deal with a lot of lawyers, and as you can imagine, calls.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:06.000
Volumes fluctuate for lawyers, and they will call us and they'll say, I need to reduce this, or I need to cut it all together.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.640
And they're like, My marketing isn't working.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:09.839
We're like, hey, cool.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:10.640
We could totally do that.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.559
Freeze your account, cancel, whatever.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:20.079
But if you need help, we have partners that we know, like, and trust in the space who we'd be happy to recommend you to what are you looking for?
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:21.839
What is like where's your area?
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:22.319
Whatever.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.240
And then we can help you get connected.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:31.039
So I know, like, there, there's the people who actually email me and tell me that they referred me someone so that I know how to pay it back.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:35.279
But um, how do you stay top of mind for your referral partners?
00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:39.839
How do you sort of um continue to foster that relationship?
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:41.680
I do it a variety of ways.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:47.119
So I stay in touch with my referral partners by phone calls, text messages, emails.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.319
A lot of the people I refer business to, I have strong personal relationships with.
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.640
I've been in legal for 20 years now.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:59.440
And so the people I'm referring business to, I've known for a long time.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.839
So it could be like just a random text where I'll say, Charlie, did you see this?
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.160
And I'll just I'll send a text message.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.079
The other part is LinkedIn.
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:16.240
I believe everyone should be on LinkedIn, posting, commenting, connecting professionally, sliding into the DMs.
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:21.279
And so I connect and stay a top of mind with a lot of people through LinkedIn too.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:23.920
I'm also a huge fan of gifting.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:31.759
And so if I see something that reminds me of a referral partner of mine, I'll just send a random gift.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:37.759
So um I try and do birthday gifts for all of my referral partners too.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:48.240
And I will congratulate them if they're doing something that I really applaud because I want them to know I see them and I recognize what they're doing is amazing.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.240
And so sometimes it's that.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:52.480
And also just a, hey, can we connect?
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:58.240
You had Ron Latts on the show recently, and Ron is a friend of mine, and he and I will message each other.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:03.599
I'll ask him for advice on something, and he will ask me a question, and we just vibe really well.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:12.319
So every once in a while, Ron and I will just hop on and just say, Hey, let's talk this idea out together, and we'll just we'll talk it out.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:17.920
And so I think staying top of mind really depends on the person and what they're comfortable with.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:22.160
For me, I do all the things because I'm just that person.
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:33.759
But for some people, it might be something a little bit more simple and a calendar reminder to do it too, where me, I'll I'll just do it in the moment.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.400
So what's a variety of those things?
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:43.519
I try so hard to organize my life with a calendar, and then the calendar will remind me to do that thing.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:45.680
I don't want to do it yet.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.960
And and or I've already done that thing that it needed to remind me to do because I'm an in the moment person.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:57.119
So I I very much identify with what you're saying.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:07.680
And also I love connecting with Ron because he's very helpful in really all facets of any information or advice that you would need.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:18.480
Okay, aside from that, what are, in your opinion, some of the referral sources that law firm owners might be overlooking?
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.200
And what else are are they missing about referrals?
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:27.359
Because I feel like in ref in in a traditional sense, people kind of they'll be like, oh yeah, of course.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:34.319
I refer my cases to this person and he does a great job, and they refer cases, but they're not really thinking that much deeper about it, right?
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.440
Like, what are what are we what are we all missing here?
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.039
I refer to those as hidden referral sources.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:42.880
So I'll give you an example.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:50.400
I did a training session with my referral marketing club the other day, and I asked them to do a homework assignment.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.640
And I encourage everyone listening to this podcast do the same homework assignment.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:24:00.240
Ask your friends and family, do you know what I do and who I help?
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:12.880
You would be sadly surprised how many people who are your family members and your friends who you think know what you do and who you help.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.160
But spoiler, they don't.
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:24.480
They need you to remind them because then they start to forget and they're not thinking about you every day of their life.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:36.079
So you have to stay top of mind with them and you have to repeat what you do and who you help, even to your family members and your friends.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.799
I clearly am Mexican.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.200
My mom is the youngest of 12.
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.119
I have 57 first cousins just on my mom's side.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.480
I have 60 altogether.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:54.079
And so if you asked me to tell you what all my cousins did, I'd be like, I have no idea.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:25:00.480
I just found out the other day, one of my cousins is the top insurance agent in Texas.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:05.279
And I was like, oh my God, cuz I had no idea you sold insurance.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.319
Like, I should be introducing you to some of my PI clients.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:13.680
And he's like, I know you work with lawyers, but I'm not actually like 100% sure what you do.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.839
I just know if I need a lawyer, I'm probably gonna ask you for a referral.
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:28.880
And so I use those examples because they're people you interact with on a daily basis, I promise you, do not know what you do and who you help.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.799
You think they do, but just do the homework assignment.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:39.839
The next people you interact with for the next four to eight hours and you see them on a regular basis, say, Hey, Nick, question.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.559
Do you know what I do and who I help?
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:44.559
And just don't say anything.
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:45.839
See what they say.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:52.640
I do this exercise with myself probably once a quarter with people I know and interact with just to see what they answer.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:59.920
And it helps me understand if I need to refine my message or I need to talk more about what it is that I do and who I help.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.240
So your hidden referral sources first, family and friends.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:10.640
You might not think about it, but your family and friends are not super clear on what you do and who you help.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:16.880
So do not hesitate to tell your family and friends what you do and who you help.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:24.400
The next layer is going to be all the people outside of your family and friends you interact with on a daily basis.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.880
And you take those people for granted.
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:34.400
Think about your neighbors, think about the parents if you have kids that your kids have play dates with all the time.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:40.160
Think about your doctors, think about the people you meet at church if you go to church.
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:46.240
Think about your friends that you play activities with if you're into sports and you have extracurricular activities.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:53.680
They are all around you, but they can all be sending you cases if you remind them what you do and who you help.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:01.119
And the other places, Facebook groups, people forget how much gold is in Facebook groups.
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:07.759
I'm a part of a mom's group, I'm a part of a Girl Scouts group, all those groups, they ask for referrals all the time.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.880
And so those places are good too.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:18.960
And the last hidden place, and it surprises people and it makes them sick to their stomach, your staff.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:29.920
Law firm owners think their staff are really good about being advocates of their law firm and that they would bring in cases if they could because they work in your law firm.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.640
And so clearly they would refer your law firm.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:51.680
But it's not until I ask them, what have you done to train and help your law firm staff feel comfortable reaching out to a family member or a friend or a loved one and referring your law firm or a referral partner's law firm to someone when they need it?
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.640
And I'll give you an example: personal injury.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:59.920
Personal injury lawyers are like my law firm staff would obviously refer a case.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.359
They work here, they know what we do and they know who we help.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:04.720
They would do it.
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.640
But I would challenge those lawyers and say, do they though?
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.160
Because I promise you, intake and marketing could feel comfortable doing it.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:26.000
But when someone has been seriously hurt, do they feel comfortable knowing what to say to that person they care about in the moment on how to refer the case and take personal injury out of it?
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.319
Criminal defense, probate, family law.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.880
I mean, when you call a lawyer, it's not because you're doing something fun and amazing, right?
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.400
You call a lawyer because you need help with a really life-changing moment.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:51.279
And your staff are hidden referral sources because you forget to train them on how to refer business to your law firm in a way that's comfortable for them.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:29:05.119
Because your paralegal might be great at working up a case, but your paralegal might not feel comfortable knowing how to tell her best friend whose mom just passed away what she needs to do to probate a will.
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:19.279
And your accounting manager might have a family member who's going through a divorce and they don't know how to appropriately say, you know, Aunt Denise, I am sorry you're going through this.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.680
None of us ever liked him anyway.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:28.160
But what do you say to that person you care about in the moment that feels natural for them?
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:38.000
If you train your staff and have those conversations to equip them with the tools they need to refer business to your law firm, your staff can be that person too.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:41.519
And to make it full circle, and I'll finish right here.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:50.799
One of the things I'll train my law firm owners on is training their staff to know who their referral partners are.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.119
Because life happens to everybody.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:03.839
And if your paralegal knows you send all your family law cases to Nick's law firm, if they're in a mom's group that says, Hey, does anyone know a family lawyer?
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.480
I'm getting a divorce and I don't know who to call.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:12.640
I want my law firm staff person to say, hey, I work at the Clark Law firm.
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.920
And I know whenever we have a family law case, we all send it to Nick's law firm because he's the best.
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:22.720
And then my law firm staff just referred a case to one of my referral partners.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.799
And I want to train that staff member to come to me and tell me when they do that.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:34.240
So then I can call Nick's office and say, hey, my um, my law firm staff just referred a divorce case to you.
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:35.680
I hope they reach out.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:48.000
Imagine how amazing you would feel if you were Nick's law firm and you got that phone call and you're like, oh my God, they train their staff to refer cases to me.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.279
Amazing.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:52.079
All those referrals are around you.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.559
You just need to remember to have those conversations.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:57.119
And if it's your staff, train your staff to do it.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:58.480
They're all around you.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.880
Tell people what you do and who you help.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.880
And don't forget to train your staff how to refer cases to you, too.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:06.960
That was gold.
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.400
I don't have 57 cousins.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.000
I bet you I don't have 57 family members.
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:20.559
However, I do have one uh like family that my family is particularly close with.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:22.880
I think it's my mom's first cousin.
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:27.279
And then her kids are my cousins, their second cousins, I guess.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:33.279
Anyway, I don't this is such a good example of what you're talking about because it's so true.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.119
I didn't know what my younger cousin did professionally.
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:46.160
Um, I know where she went to school, what she was interested in, and I guess she didn't know a hundred percent what I do professionally.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:56.799
And one night, because I am admittedly a recovering workaholic, I am sitting in my living room and I get an email because I'm crazy.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:06.480
I read the email, and it's this very long, well-written email, and I am sure that she wrote it because this was this predates ChatGPT, and she's also very, very, very intelligent.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:12.400
And it's this really well-written email detailing what this firm actually needs in terms of call answering.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.599
They have a specific outline that they needed created.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:16.640
It was really cool.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.839
It was a really cool use case.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:22.319
And I read the whole email and it's signed Allie Pateau.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:28.880
And I say, Allie Pateau, that has to there's no other Allie Pateaux out there.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.839
That has to be my cousin.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.519
This is eight o'clock at night.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:32.720
So I texted her.
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:37.839
I'm like, are you the Allie Pateau that just sent answering legal an email looking?
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:39.920
And she was like, I really thought it was you.
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:41.359
I should have texted you.
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:48.160
And I so thank God I intercepted it because I was able to be like, oh, my cousin, like, you know, facilitate, right?
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.119
Um, thank her appropriately and all that.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:33:02.480
But neither of us knew what the other person did for sure, which is totally different from because I communicate with my grandmother about professional things because that's just our lives.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:08.640
When she needed help, she legitimately called me in the middle of a work day and was like, I'm firing the answering service right now.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:09.680
I need your answer.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.039
This is like eight or nine years ago, and I thought it was so cool.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.000
I was like, business, referrals, relationships, all that stuff.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.079
Um, I want to ask you something else.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:28.640
So I spend because I am obsessed with self-improvement, really truly, um, because I spent a lot of time being stagnant and then I didn't know a lot of things and it overwhelmed me.
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:30.400
And so I never really wanted to feel like that again.
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:32.319
I want to be able, I want to be open to learning.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.440
And so now consume information, probably too much.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:47.039
I'm on Reddit forums about like legal marketing, marketing, Facebook advertising, SEO, and a lot of it is is just psycho babble and people putting up fake posts to scam you.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:50.960
But there was one that really caught my attention and it had a lot of uh traction.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:51.680
It was really cool.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:34:00.160
It was a lawyer who was on, I believe it was just r slash marketing, and he was saying, I have this new practice in this area, it's really competitive.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:01.440
I'm really nervous.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:07.599
Everybody keeps telling me I need this huge budget, and I got this quote from some marketing company that I'm vaguely familiar with.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.039
I don't know if they do a good job or not.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:10.559
I have no connection with them.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.639
And he was like, Ah, I'm nervous and this and that, and other people were chiming in.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:17.519
You don't need that, you don't need this, you don't need that.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.039
And it was a disaster.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:31.760
So I threw my proverbial two cents into the ring and just said, Hey, you, I don't think, are being given a fair shake at what you need.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:36.800
You're making assumptions about what you need, and these people are telling you that they want to sell you a product.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:41.920
I know this person who owns this uh law firm marketing agency.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:35:00.239
Personally, I know that they will give you the best evaluation of your market and what your and and understand your goals and your business objectives and growth objectives and budget and all of that, and will custom tailor you what they believe would be the best move for you going forward with no high pressure sales tactics.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:07.119
And I was just like, I threw it out there, I put a name into the ether and I never followed up because I don't really I don't really want the credit, to be honest with you.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:08.880
But you think they just want to help?
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:19.840
I just want to help and think of right and I want I I kind of want to ask you, because you probably know the ramifications of this better than me, but I have this thing with my team that we call mobilizing your base, right?
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:26.239
Which is doing such a good job that people talk about you behind your back really well without wanting credit for it.
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:31.440
Is that something that you believe that you can really affect by by doing this sort of thing?
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:47.280
When you get really good at maintaining relationships and obviously doing really good or providing really over-the-top stellar experiences for your customers and and really your referral partners, all these relationships, right?
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:55.039
Is it a phenomenon that more stuff just comes to you that you can't really attribute because people are just talking about you kindly behind your back?
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.800
I think, and I will attribute Brian Glass to this.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.679
I love to ask the question, and who can I thank for the referral?
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:08.960
I asked that in my business because I heard Brian Glass say that on one of his podcast episodes.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:10.639
I'm like, that's genius.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:22.719
But I also encourage the law firms that I consult with to ask a question like that during intake because it's great when you can find out how someone was referred your name.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.559
And unless you say that, intake might say, How did you hear about us?
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:35.360
And they say Google, but then they forget to say, but because Nick referred me, and then I went to Google to find your name and number.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.840
And so you don't get the information.
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:48.159
But I think when you do really great work and people are happy with the product and the result, they become your cheerleaders.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:37:03.119
They become your raving fans, as we say in marketing, and they refer business to you, but they do it so casually because they believe it and they're not looking for anything in return that you might not find out.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:05.039
It was them who referred you.
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:12.719
Sometimes that happens and you don't know who referred the case or referred the business to you until a little bit later.
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:15.280
And then you can thank that person.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:20.559
But sometimes I won't find out another lawyer referred a lawyer to me until later on.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:21.840
We'll be having a conversation.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.760
They're like, Yeah, you know, John mentioned that to me when he told me to call you.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:27.519
And I'll say, What are you talking about?
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.599
You said you found me on LinkedIn.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:31.199
I didn't know you know John.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:37.920
And then they're like, Well, yeah, John's the one who told me to follow you and that you'd give me all these great tips on how to gift.
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.800
And so, yes, it happens all the time.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:42.480
And I'm a huge fan of it.
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:43.840
I love when that happens.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:48.320
I think that's a great sign that you're giving great experience to your clients.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:50.400
Wow, that's really cool.
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.159
Sorry, you got my wheels turning.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:52.719
Okay.
00:37:52.880 --> 00:38:01.199
Last thing I want to ask you because and so before you asked your question, then I'm gonna bring back to your cousin example.
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:10.480
When you gave the example of your cousin who sent you that email and your cousin didn't really know what you did, and you didn't really know what she did.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.239
Like, what happened after that?
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:18.480
Did that moment change your perspective on telling people what you do and who you help?
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.599
Like, how has that changed what you do ever since that example?
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.079
Because not everyone has an example like that.
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:33.440
I will say that I was not cognizant of your advice until just now, where I should let people know what I do.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:36.239
Um, especially in like all contexts, right?
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:42.239
Maybe I can help, maybe I can point you in the right direction, maybe I can help facilitate you finding a lawyer because you're not comfortable.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:43.840
And I have done that, right?
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.079
Because some people do actually know what I do.
00:38:46.320 --> 00:39:06.320
However, I, admittedly, in a wrong sense, was always one of those people who you ever see funny stories that people will say of, I got an Uber and I'm talking to the Uber guy, and he asks me what I do, and I say digital marketing, and the Uber guy says back to me, Oh, so you work for Google.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:10.079
I'm always like, nobody understands it anyway.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:18.079
You know, I try to explain that I do marketing, and people are like, So you do marketing for answering legal, so you help lawyers and you do their marketing?
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:23.280
No, but onus is on me to let people know what I actually do.
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.119
So I was not cognizant of that.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:38.320
It has just become a funny story at Thanksgiving that the one time I intercepted an email from my cousin who I didn't, again, admittedly, see as a professional because I always she's just like my little cousin, you know what I mean?
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:45.840
Like so I have to be more and I don't even do this on LinkedIn, and people have pointed this out to me.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.960
I'm never looking for somebody to just send me stuff.
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:57.679
I I go on LinkedIn and I post stuff that I think is interesting about weird thoughts that I have, and I never tie it back into and if you think this, you should check out an answer.
00:39:57.920 --> 00:39:58.880
I I don't do that.
00:39:59.119 --> 00:39:59.760
So maybe I should.
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:03.280
Then I then I have I have a tip for you then.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:14.639
Some people don't do it because it feels salesy and it feels not like the person they are and it doesn't feel authentic to them.
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:21.280
And whenever someone tells me that, the advice I give is okay, don't ask for something for yourself.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.000
Ask for something for them.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:36.079
So the example I'll give is let's say you're at Thanksgiving and you're around the table and one of your cousins or your aunts or your uncles, someone tells a story about something that happened at work recently, right?
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:37.679
We all have that conversation.
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:49.920
It's okay to follow up with it and say something like, Hey, Aunt John or Aunt Joan, how would I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:51.519
I like to ask that question.
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.119
And by the way, that's not me.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:55.280
Um, oh, the book's not up there.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:59.199
Um, I'm rereading the book Endless Referrals by Bob Berg.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.880
And it's a question Bob Berg encourages everyone to ask.
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:07.119
How do I know if someone I'm speaking to is a good referral for you?
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:12.880
And now you're asking that question to understand how to know who to refer to them.
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:29.519
And you're giving them a reason to tell you, well, you know, the best referral for me is a personal injury lawyer in Texas who handles car crashes, but they need someone to send their trucking litigation cases to.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:30.000
Great.
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:31.519
Now I know who to refer.
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:33.599
Here's the flip part of that.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:43.920
Usually that will be followed up with, and Nick, how do I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:48.400
And if it doesn't happen naturally, then you can bring it up naturally.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.639
You can bring it up next time, whatever you want to do.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:57.920
But I like to encourage people to ask the question how do I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:12.960
Because Bob Berg was definitely on to something when he said that's a great question to ask, because I would rather find out how to refer someone to you and then see if you're gonna ask me how to refer a case back to me.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:23.920
Because when someone answers that question and asks me what I do in return to me, that means they understand this should be a reciprocal referral relationship.
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:30.800
Or them asking the question in return tells me they care about referrals too, and I know what to expect.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:38.559
If they don't ask the question back, then I'm like, huh, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't expect a referral in return from that person.
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:41.920
This is just me understanding what they do and who they help.
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:47.840
And so if it feels weird to you and you don't like it, don't say anything about yourself.
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:55.039
Just ask, you know, what a good referral looks like for that other person, and then they'll tell you when you ask the question.
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.159
I love that.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:57.039
I'm gonna do it.
00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:57.840
I didn't think of it.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:42:59.199
It's all Bob Bird, not me.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:00.239
You know what though?
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:08.880
I have not had many original ideas in my life, and someone very smart told me that they have never had any original ideas in their life and they don't plan to.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.280
But I am open to the idea that I might one day think of something smart.
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.599
I actually And then share it with the world.
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:16.400
Yes.
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:20.880
So I actually and that is something else that I I'm like, I have secrets and my strategies.
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.239
No, just everybody else can can know things.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.239
I saw, I swear.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:31.519
And first of all, my mom's name is Joan, so that was I didn't even know it.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:32.880
Classic, classic Joan.
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:33.440
Classic.
00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:36.239
So when we're sitting there, everybody's saying, Aunt Joni, Aunt Joni, Aunt Joni.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:37.280
So I'm very used to that.
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:38.719
And whose name Joan, right?
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:39.760
I don't know that many Joan's.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:40.480
I actually know Joan.
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:41.920
I don't know very many either.
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:46.000
So it was my way of like fixing the mess up when I said Aunt John.
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:47.440
I was like, no, that doesn't make sense.
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:48.800
Aunt Joan, there you go.
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:51.760
And yeah, well, I'll John is more common.
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.719
Joan is not.
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:57.360
Okay, I have I do have one more question for you because you you did kind of cover this.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:58.960
Okay, I'm gonna tell the story.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:03.280
I in the morning spent a little too much time on social media.
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:12.079
This morning, uh before I left, I was on Instagram, and it's just this uh like farmer looking guy standing.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:18.239
He's sipping a cup of coffee uh in front of his nice like farmhouse and captions come across the screen.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:37.599
Long story short, it's uh my neighbor came to me and he said he couldn't do anything in his house because he needed Wi-Fi and if I would share the password, but it didn't cost me anything, so I gave him the password to the Wi-Fi and he comes outside a couple days later, and he's very excited to tell me that he got Netflix and he's been watching these shows on Netflix.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.239
I, you know, I've been working really hard, haven't had any time to like watch any TV shows, but he's giving me this recommendation, but I don't have Netflix.
00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:47.519
So I ask him if he would give me the password to his Netflix account.
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.880
And his wife shouts from the window, I can't give you the password to the Netflix account because I pay for it.
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.519
He's like, Oh, okay, that's like really unfortunate.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.079
And a day later, he gets a knock on the door and the wife is like, What happened?
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:01.840
Like, I can't access my Netflix account.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:08.719
He says, Well, I paid for the Wi-Fi and uh I I changed password because I I pay for it and like I can't share it.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:16.559
And so you not baiting people into, but you want to know about the person that you're potentially gonna refer stuff to and like their character, right?
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:22.559
I wouldn't want to refer if I met you right now on this podcast and I was like, oh, delicious, like I don't know.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:24.559
I'd never refer anybody to her.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:26.800
You know, I I wouldn't want to do that, right?
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.840
I want to know your character.
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.039
I want to talk to you a little bit, I want to find out what you're about, what you believe, how you help people, how you conduct business.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.000
Are you reliable?
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:35.039
Do I like you?
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:35.679
I do.
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:42.320
So my my final question is besides just that, what are red flags?
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:47.920
What are some red flags to look out for in a referral partner or a potential referral partner, really?
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:53.039
Red flags to look out for would be someone who doesn't communicate well.
00:45:53.280 --> 00:46:01.280
That's definitely one of the red flags, just in general, because lack of communication is the number one cause of bar grievances in the United States.
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:06.079
So a referral partner who doesn't communicate well is a big red flag for me.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:09.920
Going back to the phrase, how you do anything is how you do everything.
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:13.199
They don't communicate with you in your referral source.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:19.599
Literally, someone who's trying to refer them business, I'm gonna go ahead and take a pretty safe gamble.
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.000
They don't communicate all that well with their clients.
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:31.360
Another red flag for me is probably gonna be definitely number two, anyone who doesn't treat their staff right or your staff right.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:41.920
If I ever hear of someone who disrespects someone on my team, I'm immediately not going to be sending them any more cases.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:47.039
If you feel comfortable disrespecting my team, you're probably doing the same with your team.
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:52.960
And it's never okay to treat my staff inappropriately.
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:56.400
And so that's a huge red flag for me as well.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:05.599
Another red flag for me, in the same vein as communication, is going to be if someone ghosts me, you know, communication and ghosting go hand in hand.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:13.679
But if I'm trying to reach out to a referral partner over and over and they're just not responding at all, that's not even a red flag anymore.
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:18.079
It's like a like a siren going off in my mind.
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:22.800
So communication twice in a variety of ways is going to be another one.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:31.119
And the other thing I would say would be if you have clients who you refer to case to and they tell you they didn't have a good experience.
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:36.159
Because one thing that's really hard, and this has happened to me a couple of times.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.880
I will refer a case to another lawyer.
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:40.559
I refer cases all week.
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:46.800
Every single week, I refer a case to another lawyer because people know if they ask me who to call, I'll tell them exactly who to fall.
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:55.760
There have been instances where I will get a phone call and someone will say, Hey, you told me to call Lawrence.
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:57.119
I called Lawrence.
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:02.159
He signed up my case, and now he is not responding to any of my phone calls.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:04.400
And I'm getting really frustrated, Dele.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:19.760
And so I now have to call Lawrence and say, Hey, Lawrence, I need you to know you're putting me in a weird predicament right now because I referred Kathy to you, and now Kathy is blowing up my phone, saying no one in your office is returning her phone call.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:31.039
And I will do that and give Lawrence the benefit of the doubt and be a professional who calls him because I want to know how Lawrence responds to that.
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:36.960
Because how that lawyer responds is gonna tell me if it's a red flag or if it's a green flag.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:42.800
A green flag would be if Lauren says, Oh my gosh, Jelisi, thank you so much for telling me that.
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:47.840
I'm gonna go look up my notes and my case management system right now and talk to my staff and see what's going on.
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:49.039
I'm so sorry.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.159
I'll get back to you in 24 hours and we'll make this right.
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:57.599
Red flag is gonna be if Lawrence is like, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.320
She's probably blowing it out of proportion.
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:05.440
It's fine and blows me off too, or doesn't respond at all.
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:12.239
And so how that person responds to a scenario like that is gonna tell me whether it's a red flag or not.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:17.039
And I will always give someone the benefit of the doubt because there are crazy clients out there.
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:18.800
Let's be honest, there are.
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:24.400
There are crazy clients who think their lawyers should call them back every 30 minutes and they need to have their cell phones.
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:25.360
I get that.
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:30.480
But how you respond to those situations tells me a lot about your character.
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:39.679
And so I'm paying attention to how someone responds to a scenario like that and using that to determine whether or not they're a red flag.
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.400
And so those are probably my top ones.
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:48.159
And if I think about everything I just said to you, almost all of them have to do with communication.
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:51.039
I mean, communication is just so key.
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:54.960
Someone else might say, well, if they don't refer you a case back, that's a red flag.
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:58.079
And I would challenge them and say, no, not necessarily.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:04.559
If you're referring a case to another practice area and you expect a case back in a month, is that realistic?
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:13.119
I mean, if you're a criminal defense firm and you're sending cases to a family law lawyer, how many referrals for criminal defense cases do you think they get a month?
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:14.800
What if the answer is zero?
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.960
What if it's once or twice a year?
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:19.039
So it might not be a red flag.
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.159
It might just be you need to have better expectations.
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:26.400
And maybe you just become really good friends and go like fishing or play pickleball.
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.000
People play pickleball all the time now.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:28.719
Yeah.
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:29.360
Yeah.
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:32.079
You need to know what kind of relationship you're having.
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:35.840
So, okay, I'm gonna prove that I learned something here.
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:38.559
Because like I told you, I do, I really do love to learn.
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:43.519
I'm being a hundred percent earnest when I tell you that like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn trying to learn.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.280
Sometimes, sometimes LinkedIn is a little dry on the learning, we're gonna be honest.
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:52.400
So usually I end this podcast, but I am going to amend this by asking.
00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:59.760
I'm gonna I usually ask for anyone in our audience who wants to follow your work or connect with you further, but I'm gonna take it a step further now.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:00.239
Okay.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:05.199
What is the best way for me to refer people to you?
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:11.679
How do I help people get in contact with you who who may need to speak with you or who I believe should speak with you?
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:17.119
You can make an introduction to me via LinkedIn.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:23.280
I'm a huge fan of introductions done through a direct message on LinkedIn if they're on LinkedIn.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:33.440
If they are not on LinkedIn, I will give you my work email and you can introduce me via email, and I'll give you my cell phone.
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:37.360
So you can just send me a text and say, hey, Deleace, just sent you an email.
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:42.000
I have a referral for you so I know to respond right away.
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.599
And that would be the best way to make an introduction.
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:53.840
I'm a big believer in like custom introductions, not just saying, hey, go visit firstcallfriday.com and fill out the contact form.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.480
When it comes to referrals, I like to personalize them.
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.559
So those would be the two ways that I would suggest.
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.800
Yeah, I'm actually the same way.
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:02.480
I like to be like a little involved.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:03.280
It makes me feel good.
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:08.079
It's not that I want the credit, it's that like, hey, you Ted Lasso says this.
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:11.440
Congratulations, you both just met a really cool person, right?
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:12.480
Oh, I love that.
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:13.760
Did you watch Ted Lasso?
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:14.639
Oh, heck yeah.
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:20.239
Oh, I was gonna say like the living Ted Lasso, but in the United States, and he doesn't coach soccer.
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:21.519
I don't coach soccer.
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:22.880
I used to have a better mustache.
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:28.719
My wife didn't really like my mustache, but I was Ted Lasso for Halloween, and I like to think that I am Ted Lasso.
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:36.400
Or at least I tried to behave like Ted Lasso would behave, except a little more rough around the edges, which we're gonna work on.
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:38.880
We can all use some more Ted Lasso's.
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:42.639
Be curious, not judgmental, but that's Walt Whitman, not Ted Lasso.
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:44.000
But you get what I'm saying.
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:46.079
Anyway, I want to thank you so much for joining me today.
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:50.320
Seriously, I learned so much, but I want to give a special thank you to our listeners.
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:51.840
We hope you enjoyed this conversation.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:52.559
I'm sure you did.
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:56.239
We will be back with another episode of Everything Except the Law soon.
00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:01.360
Be sure to check out previous episodes of our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and the Answer Illegal YouTube channel.
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.360
If you want to talk to Deleci, please let me know.
00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:05.039
I'm Nick at AnswerIle.com.
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:10.960
You can find me and and all of Delease's links in the description of this episode everywhere that you're listening or watching to it.
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:12.639
We'll see you next time, everyone.
