00:00:00
S1: Last summer. Within 48 hours in Sydney, there were four shark attacks and a lot of people were rocked by this. Tragically, in one of those incidents, 12 year old boy died a few weeks later. For years, we've been told that shark attacks in our city and across the country are rare. But quite rightly, a lot of people are scared by sharks. A natural fear of a predator. Former Navy clearance diver Paul de Gelder is a survivor. He was attacked in Sydney Harbour. He lost an arm, part of his arm, a leg now many years ago. But he's thriving these days. He's a motivational speaker and he's part of the new nine program shark, which debuts on Sunday night. And that sees celebrities including the likes of Ariarne Titmus, the former rugby league star Sam Thaiday confront their greatest fear. The greatest fear is a shark. Paul joins me in the studio. G'day, Paul.
00:00:44
S2: How you doing, mate?
00:00:45
S1: Good to see you. Just in regards to what happened over the summer, I know you spent a lot of time in the States as well, but you would have been following this. Um, why do you think there was a sudden spate in a string of attacks in the early space of 48 hours?
00:00:57
S2: I think a lot of it had to do. Look, honestly, I'm not an expert on it. I haven't really delved into it, but I believe it was immediately after heavy rains. And so the waters were murky, just like the day when I was attacked. Super murky waters and the sharks can't see you then they don't know what you are. They're using their electrosensory perception and they don't have hands to come and feel you. So they use their mouths. And it just so happens that we're quite a delicate species, you know? Wrong cut in the wrong place. You hit an artery, you're dead. And they've got a lot of sharp teeth in their mouth. I can vouch for that. And, you know, even just recently, over the last week, we've had two fatalities, great whites in far North Queensland and off of Rottnest as well in WA, uh, spear fishermen out there doing what they love and they've entered the circle of life. I don't know what happened. Um, there hasn't been a shark attack at Rottnest and I believe around 15 years. And it's such a tragedy. You know, those families and friends have lost a loved one. Those kids are going to grow up without their dad. And I'm not going to stand up for the sharks that did that. That would be absolutely disgusting and insensitive. But, you know, we like to think of ourselves as the most intelligent species on earth. So we do need to take some of the onus on ourselves. There are things that we can do. You know, you don't get into a car drunk, not put on your seat belt, not use your indicators, not stop at stop signs. You know, we do the safety stuff and you can do the same when you enter the ocean as well.
00:02:28
S1: So I guess we're at the top of the food chain when it comes to intelligence. But you mentioned we're a delicate being. Perhaps we just don't belong in their environment.
00:02:36
S2: Well, I don't think so. I think one of the greatest feelings in the world is to be totally encompassed in the ocean. I just think that we need to understand, and I think most people that enter the ocean know this. Yeah. We're signing a waiver every time we get in there. More people die from drowning. A lot more people die from drowning than die from shark attacks. And so we just have to use the tools that we have at our at our disposal. Uh, you know, there's things you can do. We've got the internet, the wealth of the world's knowledge within a few keystrokes. Look at the area you're going to. Have there been shark sightings? Have there been shark attacks? Is there a high amount of fish that the sharks eat in the area? Are you using a shark deterrent system such as Repeller? Or, you know, there's study into lights on the bottom of surfboards now that, uh, seem to be working quite well. So we do need to take some of the onus on ourselves, but it's still going to happen. We could kill as many sharks as we want. The sharks are still going to come in. They're still going to be curious. We're going to enter their realm. So I don't think not entering the ocean is a solution. And I don't think anyone's going to abide by that anyway.
00:03:45
S1: And we're Australians after all. Yeah, exactly. When you were doing your training, so, you know, well before you were attacked, did you ever have did you have fear of sharks?
00:03:53
S2: Uh, my two greatest fears in life were sharks and public speaking.
00:03:57
S1: Despite being a naval diver and a motivational speaker.
00:03:59
S2: Yeah. Now I'm a shark diving public speaker, so you never know what life's got in store for you. Uh, but why did you.
00:04:05
S1: Want to be a naval clearance diver if that was the case?
00:04:07
S2: Well, I was, uh, Army airborne first for five years, and so I just got sick of running around the Australian bush being hot and dirty and smelly. I thought, I'll go and try something else. So I went under the waves instead. And I grew up swimming, so I was comfortable in the water. I'd never dived in my life before. I did my ship's diver training, and I just fell absolutely head over heels in love with it. And I just don't think that we should stop doing the things we love just because of things that we're afraid of. You know, overcoming those fears is a really powerful motivator. And you'll see it throughout the show with our celebrities as well. Overcoming those fears. You're going to see a side of these people that you've never seen before. Real fears. Nothing is manufactured. These are real. People that are scared, are joyous. They're supporting each other. Uh, I am very excited for Australia to see this program because I don't think there's ever been anything like it before.
00:04:59
S1: State of origin has been this week. So Sam Thaiday is a is a Queensland former Queensland player. Played many years for the Broncos as well. But he played in the forwards. Right. So sort of bloke that wouldn't be fearful of a lot of things. I would have thought physically. Was he scared?
00:05:13
S2: There were a couple of people that very much internalized their fear and Sam, to a degree, was afraid. I know for sure all of them were um. And rightly so. Fear is something that keeps us safe. So while he probably put on more of the machismo than, say, Arianne, who was deathly afraid of even sticking her toes in the ocean, there was elements of fear. And, um, with Sam and Scott, cam and Matty, they, uh, they just handle it differently. And it was really nice to see all of them come together and support each other when things got tough.
00:05:55
S1: So to confront that fear in the program, you'll see it on Sunday night. Do they do they go down in a cage initially to be close to a shark? How does it work?
00:06:03
S2: So we did it. I believe in, um, exposure therapy, incremental exposure to the things you're afraid of so that you can build up a resilience to the fear. So the first dive that they did was in a cage alongside the dock. Uh, so the place we went to was a place called Bimini in the Bahamas, and I've been working there with Discovery Channel for over a decade now, and the sharks are guaranteed. We've got bull sharks there all the time, anywhere between 5 and 20. So we put them in the cage for their first dive with the bull sharks. But before we did that, we wanted to give them a reality check, and we put a dummy into the water filled with blood and watched the bull sharks do what bull sharks do. Just to give them a little bit of perspective about what can happen if you don't listen to the instructions that Annie Guttridge, my co-host, and I give them.
00:06:54
S1: So that's the key, is that you're talking about Australians when they go to the beach doing, I guess, doing your research, using what we've got upstairs, our brains. Same sort of concept really, isn't it?
00:07:03
S2: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, uh, not an easy thing to overcome because most people in their lives are never going to see a shark.
00:07:11
S1: Is that why you've been spending the last decade working with sharks? Because of the horror that you went through, you admitted that it was one of your great fears. Was, was that a way to to get over the trauma you experienced?
00:07:22
S2: It wasn't really so much that maybe in the early days when I did 60 minutes with Peter Overton and he took me to the Sydney Aquarium to see the Grey Nurse Sharks, and they did the follow up and took me to Fiji to dive with actual bull sharks. And I ended up hand feeding one of the bull sharks, and I was just kind of hooked. From that moment on, I couldn't believe that this large, predatory animal that so many people are deathly afraid of could be hand fed. And I discovered that they really are a one of a kind predator. A shark will allow you to share its environment as long as you treat it with respect. Now you can't go up to a bear, a lion, or any sort of predator in the wild and just walk over and put your hand on its head. It's going to tear you to pieces. But a shark, if you do the right things, if you treat it with respect, will allow you to do that.
00:08:13
S1: And if you're in murky waters, maybe in Sydney Harbour at dusk, that's not going to happen.
00:08:17
S2: There is a small correlation, I believe, between dusk and dawn, but nothing crazy to say, you know, don't go in at those times. It's more about low light levels and low visibility levels. So when the sun's low, when it's overcast, you know, the guys will go out surfing, it'll be overcast. And they'll say, oh, it feels sharky because that's when they're hunting and that's when you can't see them.
00:08:39
S1: The day that you're attacked. I know it's many years ago and you've done so much since. Do you does it ever come back to you when you're like in your nightmares?
00:08:45
S2: No, I've never had a nightmare. Um, I don't have flashbacks. Uh, I don't really know why, to be honest. I don't really get hung up on things like that. It's just something that happened. I've got a life to live now. I'm going to move on and try and live that life as best I can. Um, I think the people that were there that day that were assisting actually had a bigger mental and emotional problem with it than I did. You know, I didn't see my leg. I didn't see how horrific it was. I knew that if I looked at it and it was really bad, I'd probably go into shock and die. So I just refused to look at it and I just focused on breathing.
00:09:23
S1: Was that because of your training in the military?
00:09:24
S2: Exactly.
00:09:25
S1: You could do that? Yeah. Extraordinary. Uh, we'll see it on Sunday night. It's 7:00. It's called Shark on Channel nine. Good on you, Paul. Thank you mate. Paul de Gelder.
S1: Last summer. Within 48 hours in Sydney, there were four shark attacks and a lot of people were rocked by this. Tragically, in one of those incidents, 12 year old boy died a few weeks later. For years, we've been told that shark attacks in our city and across the country are rare. But quite rightly, a lot of people are scared by sharks. A natural fear of a predator. Former Navy clearance diver Paul de Gelder is a survivor. He was attacked in Sydney Harbour. He lost an arm, part of his arm, a leg now many years ago. But he's thriving these days. He's a motivational speaker and he's part of the new nine program shark, which debuts on Sunday night. And that sees celebrities including the likes of Ariarne Titmus, the former rugby league star Sam Thaiday confront their greatest fear. The greatest fear is a shark. Paul joins me in the studio. G'day, Paul.
00:00:44
S2: How you doing, mate?
00:00:45
S1: Good to see you. Just in regards to what happened over the summer, I know you spent a lot of time in the States as well, but you would have been following this. Um, why do you think there was a sudden spate in a string of attacks in the early space of 48 hours?
00:00:57
S2: I think a lot of it had to do. Look, honestly, I'm not an expert on it. I haven't really delved into it, but I believe it was immediately after heavy rains. And so the waters were murky, just like the day when I was attacked. Super murky waters and the sharks can't see you then they don't know what you are. They're using their electrosensory perception and they don't have hands to come and feel you. So they use their mouths. And it just so happens that we're quite a delicate species, you know? Wrong cut in the wrong place. You hit an artery, you're dead. And they've got a lot of sharp teeth in their mouth. I can vouch for that. And, you know, even just recently, over the last week, we've had two fatalities, great whites in far North Queensland and off of Rottnest as well in WA, uh, spear fishermen out there doing what they love and they've entered the circle of life. I don't know what happened. Um, there hasn't been a shark attack at Rottnest and I believe around 15 years. And it's such a tragedy. You know, those families and friends have lost a loved one. Those kids are going to grow up without their dad. And I'm not going to stand up for the sharks that did that. That would be absolutely disgusting and insensitive. But, you know, we like to think of ourselves as the most intelligent species on earth. So we do need to take some of the onus on ourselves. There are things that we can do. You know, you don't get into a car drunk, not put on your seat belt, not use your indicators, not stop at stop signs. You know, we do the safety stuff and you can do the same when you enter the ocean as well.
00:02:28
S1: So I guess we're at the top of the food chain when it comes to intelligence. But you mentioned we're a delicate being. Perhaps we just don't belong in their environment.
00:02:36
S2: Well, I don't think so. I think one of the greatest feelings in the world is to be totally encompassed in the ocean. I just think that we need to understand, and I think most people that enter the ocean know this. Yeah. We're signing a waiver every time we get in there. More people die from drowning. A lot more people die from drowning than die from shark attacks. And so we just have to use the tools that we have at our at our disposal. Uh, you know, there's things you can do. We've got the internet, the wealth of the world's knowledge within a few keystrokes. Look at the area you're going to. Have there been shark sightings? Have there been shark attacks? Is there a high amount of fish that the sharks eat in the area? Are you using a shark deterrent system such as Repeller? Or, you know, there's study into lights on the bottom of surfboards now that, uh, seem to be working quite well. So we do need to take some of the onus on ourselves, but it's still going to happen. We could kill as many sharks as we want. The sharks are still going to come in. They're still going to be curious. We're going to enter their realm. So I don't think not entering the ocean is a solution. And I don't think anyone's going to abide by that anyway.
00:03:45
S1: And we're Australians after all. Yeah, exactly. When you were doing your training, so, you know, well before you were attacked, did you ever have did you have fear of sharks?
00:03:53
S2: Uh, my two greatest fears in life were sharks and public speaking.
00:03:57
S1: Despite being a naval diver and a motivational speaker.
00:03:59
S2: Yeah. Now I'm a shark diving public speaker, so you never know what life's got in store for you. Uh, but why did you.
00:04:05
S1: Want to be a naval clearance diver if that was the case?
00:04:07
S2: Well, I was, uh, Army airborne first for five years, and so I just got sick of running around the Australian bush being hot and dirty and smelly. I thought, I'll go and try something else. So I went under the waves instead. And I grew up swimming, so I was comfortable in the water. I'd never dived in my life before. I did my ship's diver training, and I just fell absolutely head over heels in love with it. And I just don't think that we should stop doing the things we love just because of things that we're afraid of. You know, overcoming those fears is a really powerful motivator. And you'll see it throughout the show with our celebrities as well. Overcoming those fears. You're going to see a side of these people that you've never seen before. Real fears. Nothing is manufactured. These are real. People that are scared, are joyous. They're supporting each other. Uh, I am very excited for Australia to see this program because I don't think there's ever been anything like it before.
00:04:59
S1: State of origin has been this week. So Sam Thaiday is a is a Queensland former Queensland player. Played many years for the Broncos as well. But he played in the forwards. Right. So sort of bloke that wouldn't be fearful of a lot of things. I would have thought physically. Was he scared?
00:05:13
S2: There were a couple of people that very much internalized their fear and Sam, to a degree, was afraid. I know for sure all of them were um. And rightly so. Fear is something that keeps us safe. So while he probably put on more of the machismo than, say, Arianne, who was deathly afraid of even sticking her toes in the ocean, there was elements of fear. And, um, with Sam and Scott, cam and Matty, they, uh, they just handle it differently. And it was really nice to see all of them come together and support each other when things got tough.
00:05:55
S1: So to confront that fear in the program, you'll see it on Sunday night. Do they do they go down in a cage initially to be close to a shark? How does it work?
00:06:03
S2: So we did it. I believe in, um, exposure therapy, incremental exposure to the things you're afraid of so that you can build up a resilience to the fear. So the first dive that they did was in a cage alongside the dock. Uh, so the place we went to was a place called Bimini in the Bahamas, and I've been working there with Discovery Channel for over a decade now, and the sharks are guaranteed. We've got bull sharks there all the time, anywhere between 5 and 20. So we put them in the cage for their first dive with the bull sharks. But before we did that, we wanted to give them a reality check, and we put a dummy into the water filled with blood and watched the bull sharks do what bull sharks do. Just to give them a little bit of perspective about what can happen if you don't listen to the instructions that Annie Guttridge, my co-host, and I give them.
00:06:54
S1: So that's the key, is that you're talking about Australians when they go to the beach doing, I guess, doing your research, using what we've got upstairs, our brains. Same sort of concept really, isn't it?
00:07:03
S2: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, uh, not an easy thing to overcome because most people in their lives are never going to see a shark.
00:07:11
S1: Is that why you've been spending the last decade working with sharks? Because of the horror that you went through, you admitted that it was one of your great fears. Was, was that a way to to get over the trauma you experienced?
00:07:22
S2: It wasn't really so much that maybe in the early days when I did 60 minutes with Peter Overton and he took me to the Sydney Aquarium to see the Grey Nurse Sharks, and they did the follow up and took me to Fiji to dive with actual bull sharks. And I ended up hand feeding one of the bull sharks, and I was just kind of hooked. From that moment on, I couldn't believe that this large, predatory animal that so many people are deathly afraid of could be hand fed. And I discovered that they really are a one of a kind predator. A shark will allow you to share its environment as long as you treat it with respect. Now you can't go up to a bear, a lion, or any sort of predator in the wild and just walk over and put your hand on its head. It's going to tear you to pieces. But a shark, if you do the right things, if you treat it with respect, will allow you to do that.
00:08:13
S1: And if you're in murky waters, maybe in Sydney Harbour at dusk, that's not going to happen.
00:08:17
S2: There is a small correlation, I believe, between dusk and dawn, but nothing crazy to say, you know, don't go in at those times. It's more about low light levels and low visibility levels. So when the sun's low, when it's overcast, you know, the guys will go out surfing, it'll be overcast. And they'll say, oh, it feels sharky because that's when they're hunting and that's when you can't see them.
00:08:39
S1: The day that you're attacked. I know it's many years ago and you've done so much since. Do you does it ever come back to you when you're like in your nightmares?
00:08:45
S2: No, I've never had a nightmare. Um, I don't have flashbacks. Uh, I don't really know why, to be honest. I don't really get hung up on things like that. It's just something that happened. I've got a life to live now. I'm going to move on and try and live that life as best I can. Um, I think the people that were there that day that were assisting actually had a bigger mental and emotional problem with it than I did. You know, I didn't see my leg. I didn't see how horrific it was. I knew that if I looked at it and it was really bad, I'd probably go into shock and die. So I just refused to look at it and I just focused on breathing.
00:09:23
S1: Was that because of your training in the military?
00:09:24
S2: Exactly.
00:09:25
S1: You could do that? Yeah. Extraordinary. Uh, we'll see it on Sunday night. It's 7:00. It's called Shark on Channel nine. Good on you, Paul. Thank you mate. Paul de Gelder.
