Common Mistakes Managers Make in Hiring & Recruiting

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Execution Still Beats gimmicks every day and
recruiting and a lot of times we talk

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to customers they're like this is how
we close a talent. Our CEO talks

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to them and then our board member
talks to them and an investor talks to

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them and in our question is like
why, what are we selling right at

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that point? Because if you have
the job they want, you don't have

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to do those things. If you're
a startup, then they want to work

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in a start up. Like you're
already sixty percent of the way there,

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and that discussion. So I think
we see a lot of gimmicks that not

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only are they poorly executed, but
the intent is it's the wrong solution to

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begin with. Hi, I'm Jason, you vanished, CEO of Lighthouse,

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and this is the creating high performing
teams podcast. We aim to be the

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most actionable podcast you've ever heard on
leadership and management, where we give you

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the exact advice you need to be
a better leader across a variety of topics.

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Today I'm here with an amazing guest. His name is Erin Wilson and

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he is a huge expert on hiring
and so we're going to be talking about

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a bunch of great things related to
hiring and managing your team. Erin is

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a family man first, one of
the founders of an awesome startup called team

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Ai, and he is a forever
faithful forty niners fan. Erin is someone

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who fell into recruiting and since has
fallen in love with the idea of talent

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engineering. He and team ai are
an Amission to change the way the world

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hires forever. Thanks for joining us, Erin. Hey, thanks for having

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me. Jason's good to see him. Yeah, absolutely. Erin actually was

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an early customer of Lighthouse, which
was awesome to have him in balls with

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that, and I've learned so much
from him from on recruiting and hiring that

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I knew I had to have them
on the show. The first thing that

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I really wanted to understand, Erin, I feel like you've talked to so

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many people over the years and help
so many people with recruiting. I'm sure

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you've seen a lot of really common
mistakes, and so what do you see

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are the most common kind of mistakes
that managers make in their hiring process and

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what are the consequences of those?
Yeah, how much time do we have?

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Ha, no, that's the actionable
here. I think two things.

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It's called out. It's really common
for hiring managers to get out and start

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interviewing to hire before they're ready to
hire. So I think the big pieces

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make sure you're ready to hire before
you start the interview process. The other

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thing I'd love the highlight really quickly
is many hiring managers make decisions without using

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data, even worse, without even
being aware of the data, which is

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is pretty easy to access, and
in turn they end up making pretty important

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decisions based on their guidance thinct.
There's something closer to an insecurity, but

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those are definitely really common ones.
I've seen those myself. Certainly probably made

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a few of those mistakes, I
think. In particularly, you said making

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higher decisions without data. I think
to a lot of people they just think,

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Oh, I'm going to talk to
a bunch of people and I'm going

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to rule some people out and narrow
it doubt and then I'm going to pick

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somebody. So we're just data coming
what is what does it mean to hire

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with data? Yeah, love the
follow up. I think we have to

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reframe it in context of what problem
are we trying to hiring is still a

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solution into a problem them, and
so we're hiring. The problem we're trying

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to solve is we need to hire
the best person for the role or the

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person for the role in a given
period of time, and in order to

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do that we might want to understand
data or benchmarks out in the market so

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that we can measure our progress or
success over time. For example, how

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long does it take you to go
from a first round interview to getting an

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offer in a candidates hands, from
start to finish? How long does that

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take? When your team decides to
hire somebody and you make an offer?

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How effective are you? What is
your offer acceptance rate and what is that

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compared to others in the market?
It says are a couple examples of what

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we would consider data or, more
maybe more so, bench marks of a

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healthy hiring process. HMM, that's
great. So the idea is to if

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I'm understanding it as a manager,
is I want to understand these things because

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I need to know whether I'm actually
doing a good job or where maybe a

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step in the process isn't as good
as most people absolutely, and just to

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tie at home, hiring is an
iterative game which hiring managers and the no

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products management or you've have so much
expertise. have to know that. And

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in this is the point is where
how do you iterate without knowing where you're

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that process? And I would encourage
hig managers to start there. Absolutely.

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And so thinking about those three mistakes. So you said it's interviewing before the

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rate, of making the decision based
on insecurities and not having data. What

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are the consequence of what happens because
of making those mistakes? Yeah, I'll

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try to be short in the sense
that one of the biggest consequences is just

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inefficiency. And what we see out
in the market at Temi is it's really

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common for a hiring manager to spend
three to four hundred hours per higher.

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There's a better way and in fact
in healthy processes you can get that down

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to thirty or forty hours per higher. So these approaches lead to an efficiency,

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they lead in effectiveness. Right.
So running into the hiring process and

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making someone an offer before you're really
prepared to execute on what you're offering that

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person many times leads to turndowns and
rejection and then, I would say,

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you know, churn as another one. Jason, if your focal point is

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finding people and you and you're not
taking an empathetic approach at you'll churn a

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lot of your pipeline and efforts and
that wears on you and your team.

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So that churn you mean is actually
losing people before you even get the chance

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to hire them. If you're not
talking about turnover where the higher doesn't even

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work out correct, I'm talking a
self select out of your pipeline. Some

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you see, some you don't,
but it comes and that's something that's one

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of the hardest ones because they don't
see all the churn, which right.

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They have the false positive. Hey, everyone I put into this take home

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test likes it, but you're not, and and probably a piece that you

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know is where our passion if you're
not taking some of the advice we throughout

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in this call, you're going to
end up with homogeneous teams. The idea

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of being really inclusive and building a
diverse workforce is is it not in reach?

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And put it that way, absolutely, and I think one of the

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underrated things are around, like when
you talk about homogeneous teams, is that

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if you're not intentional about like your
interview process and the kinds of questions you

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ask, you can actually end up
with not only a lack of diversity,

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maybe in what people look like in
their backgrounds, but also a lack of

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diversity and how people think and the
ideas they bring to the table. Because

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if you really like an interview process
with the Barrow from like McKenzie could sulting,

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don't be surprised if all you are
able to do is hire people who

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previously worked at commit mckinzie, who
then means they likely also previously went to

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an Ivy League and have very specific
set of like kinds of degrees and backgrounds

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and things like that. Yeah,
absolutely love that. And again it seems

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trivial, but you can run out
with a half baked interview plan and feel

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like you're building the strongest team,
but if you haven't considered the Wi fi

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signal for the folks you're reaching out
to, then you haven't really thought through

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it that much, and so I
think there's a lot of details. heednit

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that you nailed it perfectly. J
sorry, what do you mean by Wi

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fi signal? Oh, I just
been it's again. It's really common when

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you think about an interview process.
Hey, I'm going to roll something out,

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we're going to run these three processes
and that's always worked for me.

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Yeah, like mckinzie Bane. So
I'm going to do that again. Yeah.

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Well, that's really counterintuitive to assume
that every single person has an equal

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access to five g Wi fi network
where they can get on a zoom call

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and and to do a five hour
case study where they have yeah, and

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that's where it's going with that.
Okay, very cool. So thinking about

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these common mistakes, those three are
just so big. What can managers do

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to maybe avoid or fix some of
these mistakes? Yeah, let's make this

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digestible. The first thing I would
always recommend is start simple. Usually hiring

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managers want to write job descriptions.
Yeah, that's too complicated, right,

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how about just start with what we
call a user story, which is essentially

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four to six questions that make you
think a little bit and explain the connectivity

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tissue behind a job description? Right, that an individual one. So let's

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start simple. Complete a user story, not a business plan. Don't go

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out and do the job description where
you're going to post all the ads and

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all those okay, I think the
second thing is you got to design with

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empathy. Right, when you think
about your interview plan or your your interview

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stages. Why don't we start by
reverse engineering that process from the job seekers

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point of view or another humans point
of view outside of your own? Again,

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it's really common. We do these
because it saves us time, and

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that's the logic for an interview plan. When, in turn, we can

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think about what is that person doing
right now? They're at work, they're

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a family member, yeah, they're
then they're also interviewing, right, so

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are we thinking about those things?
And then the third piece is just that

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data awareness. Hiring is not a
perfect game. It's really common for hiring

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managers to hold out, to keep
sourcing or keep interviewing. It may pay

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them to know that the best teams
in the world they hire one person for

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every seven unique people they see for
a job. So, as a hiring

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manager, if I open a job, yeah, and I interview seven different

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people and make a hiring decision,
I'm going to make a very good hiring

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decision. TURNS OUT I don't need
to see forty five people. I don't

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have our sun that's before right.
Oh yeah, Hey, Jason, you're

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perfect for the job and you want
it and it's perfect, but I haven't

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seen twenty five or thirty people.
I asterally have that happened to me.

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That is literally happened to me where
I interviewed it a company and literally they

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said, Hey, really like you, but we don't we're not ready to

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bring you on for the final interview
step because we sampling of more candidates first,

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and they literally ended up go see
me and to this day it's like

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a sour taste on my mouth or
I'm like this is insane. And I

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literally then had other people who,
when I was networking my way to look

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for a job earlier in my career, where they literally told me like hey,

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it's great to meet you, but
as the hiring manager, I like

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to sample people. You're really good, so can you wait six weeks to

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apply? And it's just there's so
many things that like droll me crazy about

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that. So I've absolutely seen that. I think a lot of people overestimate

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how many. Like even I was
like wait, seven enough, like I

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started thinking about my own hiring and
there's definitely plenty of times I've hired one

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of the first seven people I talked
to. But to hear that in general

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that's the case is really encouraging and
interesting that, like, you can actually

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get to what's probably a very good
higher much faster than I think a lot

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of people may think. They absolutely
and you can use this Tom asure yourself.

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Right, if you're a new hiring
manager listening in this podcast and your

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and you've interviewed six people and you
don't feel like you're even close to hiring

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for your role, it doesn't mean
you're a bad hiring manager. This could

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be the first time you're hiring for
that role. This could be the first

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time your company's hiring for that position. This could be your first time hiring

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as a hiring manager. There are
reasons to have more reps or take more

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cycles, but in a healthy environment, right, there's no place for that

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ego of Hey, I know how
to hire and I need to meet a

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whole bunch of people because it's perfection, and I think that's a point I

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want to get away from again.
You're trying to solve a problem. Right,

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there are variables that have come before
your time that show this is an

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effective way to do that, and
I Tamai were just trying to communicate those

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constantly and equip people so they can
go out and execute. Okay, that's

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awesome. So going back to the
the first point. then. I know

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you talked about start with a user
story of four six questions to make you

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think a little bit about the role
you want to hire. Do you have

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maybe a favorite example or maybe a
blog post from the team, I.

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Aai blog or something like that that
you could that we could link to in

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the show notes? Yeah, I'm
sure we can share something, but I'm

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having to share it live. I
think the questions for everyone to think about

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it. Questions why? What's the
business need behind this higher? What per

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on a scale a one to ten? How hands on is this position?

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Example, eight, representing eighty percent
hands on. How big is the existing

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team? Two, five or ten? What's the current composition of that team?

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Very senior, very junior, etc. In the first six months,

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what will this person produce in the
role? Yeah, and none is produced

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is an important word, because we're
not looking for tasks, right. What

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are the work products this higher will
be measured on? Yeah, and then

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we ask compensation up front. So
that's one more. We ask to see

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how educated the customer is from a
base salary standpoint. What do you expect?

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What's your range for this role?
And I'll give you a one more

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Jay, the one last have you
ever hired for this position before and,

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in any case, do you have
an interview plan? Please share, and

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this my favorite ones. The question
at the end is one of my favorites.

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So when I want to let you
know that we pull this data across

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hundreds of hiring managers, almost forty
percent of the roles we see being hired

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for, the person hiring for it
has never hired for it before. Right.

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So in forty percent of the roles
we see somebody's hiring for something they've

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never hired for before. It's their
first time doing it. I think that's

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huge. And the second piece is
almost everyone says yes to the interview plan

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question, but the real answer is
no. They say yes, they have

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a couple thoughts. They don't have
a plan, like who are the five

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people that are going to interview this
person and what are each of those people

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going to cover in the interview?
Yeah, that those are the ones.

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You are saying. Job Descriptions don't
answer those questions very oh yeah, and

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that's the point we're trying to get
out there. That's great. That's great

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cool. So we'll make sure to
conclude them. The show notes and and

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are and I'll fall up with you
afterwards to see if there's any post or

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anything like that. We should direct
people to to dive in more that,

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because I think this is very important
so many jobs. This is very clear.

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Like, I think actually part of
the reason that people interview so many

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people is they're literally iterating on their
process and using human beings who they could

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maybe use a little more empathy for
and the interview process. They're using them

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as their guinea pigs to perfect their
process, when a little bit more thought

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up front would both be more empathetic
to the candidates and save you a lot

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of time, because now, instead
of interviewing thirty people to get to a

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decision because the first fifteen or throw
aways, you're actually finding the right candidates

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faster, absolutely and just applying focus
on a per candidate basis. And that's

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the exactly you said. But you
know what we hear so often, unfortunately

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and recruiting, is the third prospect
they meet and they really want to hire

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and they're like, I'll just put
them through. That's a real that's a

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real comment I manage making. It's
like, how about? No, how

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about it's only the third person you
meet, and I bet by for more.

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You're going to hire someone, so
let's just keep move it. Let's

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tell this person not to waste their
time. Yeah, so that's that awareness

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piece. It's nuance is there,
but you gotta know. Yeah, that's

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great. And then when we talked
about empathy here, totally understand, like

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for scheduling or if you ask them
to do a a task or small project,

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all those sorts of things you absolutely
want to keep in mind you know

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what that person's life is like and
what they actually is like feasible to ask

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of them to do, whether it
be what time of day they can do

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a step in the interview or how
they can get time off or how much

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time they need to complete a task, not because of the like the task,

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but because other demands in their life. I think another part of it

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is the actual experience in interview.
So I'm curious how do you feel about

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things like servying candidates at the end
of the interview process, whether you hire

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them or not, to get to
maybe get some feedback on how they felt

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about your company's interview process? A
fan of data, so let's start there.

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I do find challenges with this approach. I think surveying a consumer when

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they're still in the buying process is
tough, and so a lot of the

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systems today are geared to send that
survey out within a few days of the

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interview or the decision, and I
think that's an interesting time to collect data.

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If a candidates in your hiring process, for are the odds that they

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give you objective, constructive feedback if
they just had a decision shared with them

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and in most cases with no supporting
evidence or transparency? Again, I'm not

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sure the content we learn is going
to be the most effective. Where we

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think surveying candidates is the most effective
is in a call that is executed right

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after they speak to the hiring manager
of the hiring organization. When we set

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up individuals to speak with hiring managers, we also set up a candidate exchange

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or candidate debrief with the prospect following
that call of the hiring manager, and

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in that sense we consider that a
survey and we run it like clockwork.

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Be when you ask candidates what they
think coming out of that interview, they'll

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tell you and they'll tell you very
openly. We frame it as what have

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you learned? What do you still
want to learn? Is there any feedback

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and they see that as a tool
while they're in the middle of the process

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to improve their experience. So that's
been the way we survey. Haven't seen

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as much application of that survey on
the end result. Yeah, that's fair.

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Ironically, I have found that in
the vast majority of cases, the

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companies that actually survey, my friends
are myself when we've been looking for jobs,

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are the ones that that had the
fewest problems, the ones that like

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goes to you, the ones that
have, you know jagged process where they

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lose track of steps and things like
that, but they're the ones who aren't

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doing a lot of the things,
and so I've always wondered whether the survey

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was like a you know false positive
and that if you are surveying, it's

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not even the act of surveying that
matters. It's the fact that your detail

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oriented enough that you bother to do
one, not so much that the survey

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actually helps that much. Jason,
you can be more right. And in

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one of my previous experiences we ran
greenhouse powered candidate surveys. Yeah, and

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I'm carte blanche data guy, so
I said I want every candidate in every

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stage, no matter what happens to
get a survey. Okay, we'll see

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what happened, and it just imported
your point. We were running a tight

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ship. The survey data came back
and looked good, and so what I

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appreciate it as a head of recruiting
was it showed the work we were doing.

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As a person who wanted to improve
the general candidate experience, we already

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had a beat before that data ever
showed up. Yeah, what was really

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incredible for though, however, was
finding those educates so we could extract the

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deeper survey data and say, wow, ninety four percent of prospects think we

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show up to interviews ready to go. Yeah, but this one scored us

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a two. And so you still
can get into that detractor and reach out

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and turn that single brand impression into
into a an advocate for your brand.

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And so again I think there's tons
of deeper value. But to your point,

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the survey itself isn't the value,
it's what you going to do with

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that data. Do you have the
team and the attention in detail? Absolutely,

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that's great. So one of the
things I've noticed in my career I've

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done a lot of early stage stuff, whether it be as a founder or

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product leader an early company and I've
seen the full gammet had lots of beers

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with friends comparing notes, and what
you run into is there are a variety

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of situations and different kinds of relationships
that a hiring manager can have with the

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recruiting and HR team related to hiring. But that can be everything from when

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there's no recruiting help at all because
your two early stage you haven't even hired

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your first HR person, or HR
is underwater and paying down what I would

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call hr debt, so they have
no time for recruiting. They're just trying

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to keep the company from getting,
like, legally in trouble with some Hacky,

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hacky payroll or administrative things they were
doing. Then there's the hey,

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these recruiters are actually experts. Hashly
lean on a team that clearly knows what

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they're doing and wants to support me. And then the Times where recruiting maybe

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is understaffed or overwhelmed or otherwise can't
consistently help you, and so I think

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there's different tactics that can help you
and each of the scenario. So it's

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hoping we could run through a couple
of those. So starting out, if

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you're out of your hiring manager listening
to this podcast and there's no recruiting help

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one reason or another. It's literally
you're on your own. What should you

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do? Yeah, I love it
see these buckets all the time. Let's

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start there. The first thing you
got to do is verify that the role

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that you're about to go hire for
is actually important to somebody else in the

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company besides you didn't okay. If
you don't have recruiting support, there may

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be M so I would check into
that. What we see in recruiting is

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that the roles are prioritized but not
communicated very often stream. So it may

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be okay for you to hire for
that person, but somebody doesn't think it's

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a top priority. Therefore you're not
getting support. It's a very common use

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case. So number one we would
say is just make sure it's a real

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approved role right, and that's some
one. Number two, tap your HR

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recruiting team. See if they've invested
in any type of self service tool,

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so I. Greenhouses and stuff like
that. Exactly. Have they built any

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additional documentation? Have they used any
type of loom or anything to help you

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get running with the existing process.
Make the lift easier for you. If

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they've created it, they want you
to use it, so go look and

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see if you got it, and
then I would just say but beyond that,

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the third thing is leverage your resources
outside the company. I don't know

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many folks who are hiring managers who
don't know at least one recruiter. So

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I would push back and say,
Hey, offer a virtual coffee meet with

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somebody who's trained in recruiting or really
skilled hiring manager. Get together with them

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and explain the situation and say,
look, I'm on my own, I'm

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a team of one. Right I
want to acomplish some things over the next

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few months. Where do you think
I should focus my time? And they're

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going to be able to give you
answers based on their battle scars. Yep,

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that's that's why I would spend my
how are you really doing as a

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manager? What does your team think
of you and how can you improve?

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These are common questions every good manager
has, but if you don't find out

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the answers to them, you're not
going to become the best manager you can

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00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:30.920
be. Instead, you risk being
blindsided by surprise turnover or secret frustrations your

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team has about you. That you
never even knew about. To become a

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00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.839
great manager means investing in Yourself.
You need to build the right habits,

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00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.680
measure how you're doing and learn new
skills to keep improving. That's why we

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00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.759
built lighthouse pro. It includes everything
you need to be a great leader,

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00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:53.440
including our oneonone software to help you
build and keep the right habits to build

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00:21:53.440 --> 00:22:00.039
great relationships with your team, our
manager score benchmarking survey that gives you anonymous

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00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.519
feedback from your team on how you're
really doing and how you can improve based

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00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:07.880
on your score, and we give
you access to our lighthouse lessons program to

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00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:14.640
learn new skills you can immediately apply
to your team to bring out their best.

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00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.319
Getting access to lighthouse pro starts by
signing up for a twenty one day

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00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.160
free trial of lighthouse. You can
see today how you can have better one

340
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.599
on ones and much more than makes
you a better manager. At get lighthousecom

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00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:33.839
now. That's great. That's great. Yeah, I think that gives people

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some ideas, regardless of the size. So first of all, I think

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it's important, as Aerr and emphasize
in his first point, like don't assume

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that you don't have support just because
they didn't come to you. If you

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do have a team, at least
make them aware of your hiring plan to

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see if maybe they can't speak out
a little bit of support or, like

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he says, share some materials.
But if you don't have that, you

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truly are in your own because you're
that early stage of start up. But

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you're going to save yourself a lot
of rookie painful mistakes and goofed candidates,

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like we talked about earlier, if
you just talk to somebody who has a

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couple of those battle scars, whether
it be hey, your founder listening to

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this, talk to other founders who
have hired and scaled up teams. They're

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going to have learned a lot about
recruiting. And if your midlevel leader looking

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to somebody who's done you think has
done a great job of hiring, or

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maybe the best person who ever hired, you ask them. Asking them for

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advice is the best way to tack
them. Okay, let's talk about the

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the ideal scenario. So if you're
a hiring manager and you know that you've

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a pretty good recruiting organization, but
maybe you're working with them for the first

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time and aren't used to actually having
their support. How can somebody actually take

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full advantage of good recruiters if maybe
they've never had that kind of experience before?

361
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Yeah, I love this. First
and foremost, if they're already skilled

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in efficient, the first thing you
can do is acknowledge that. Acknowledge it's

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already doing something well. Approach them
like a partner, not like an agency

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or client service function, which is
very common, and start there. I

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think, besides acknowledging it, understand
what is their cadence? Who? What

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are the roles and responsibilities of the
team? It's really important, just like

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any other functional group in the business, if they're performing at a high level,

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it's because they have cleared drive,
they have specialization and they're executing at

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a high level. Your goals a
hiring manager is to plug into that.

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So I would I'll be a little
long landed there, because I want to

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just pay amage to great recruiting teams
out there who've got their shit figured out.

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Plug into it. The best thing
you can do from there is make

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their life easy. Right, if
they're running well, they know what they

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need to do their job, so
ask them those questions. Leave with curiosity.

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Hey, what do you need from
me? To help you do your

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job. How can we move quicker? If you ask the questions that you

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know are important to you, they're
also important to the recruiters. They're going

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to execute through with you. We're
the most responsive people in the company.

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That's who recruiters are. You cut
down on the latency by've been clear about

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what you want, we will deliver
for you. So I think, in

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short, as make their job really
easy and then in turn, they'll make

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your recruiting or your life as a
hiring manager really easy. Totally, totally.

383
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.799
Yeah, I think people under a
cross department communication a lot of times

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in this is certainly one of those
times where it's like they're there to help,

385
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.039
but if you can make their life
a little bit easier, let's help

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00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.000
me, help you. That's right. So let's talk about that middle of

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the road. So you don't have
nothing and you don't have the superstar Dream

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Team for your recruiting. What do
you do when maybe you're in that kind

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of middle the road situation where maybe
the recruiting team is understaffed, they're a

390
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.079
little overwhelmed or it feels like they're
a little inconsistent how they can help you?

391
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:30.519
How do you manage that situation where
you have some help but maybe not

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00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.599
perfect help, and so like.
How do you manage that one? Maybe

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your priority isn't their priority and it's
not really anyone's fault. It's just a

394
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:41.559
fact of life that you have an
imperfect situation. To collaborate with the recruiting

395
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:47.279
team. Yeah, and this is
a tricky one, because recruiters want by

396
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:49.039
nature, we want to be responsive, we want to help. We don't

397
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.079
want to let people down in the
snarew we're describing. Were set up to

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00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.960
do that over and over again.
It's also tricky for the hiring manager.

399
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.039
In the example where your self service
it's easy, you get no help.

400
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:02.240
If you're a good team, it's
easy. They do pretty much everything right

401
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.359
in the middle it's really murky and
it's a job you've never done before or

402
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.559
is not your number one job.
And so here a couple quick tips.

403
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Number One, as the hiring manager, you have to be the driver,

404
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:15.160
you have to be the proactive,
you have to chase the recruiting team down,

405
00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.319
which in many cases it's the other
way around. We're happy to chase

406
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.400
you down. It's our job.
Yeah, but if you're in bucket,

407
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.599
see here if you're getting pseudo coverage
or you're underwater, you got to be

408
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.200
throwing life rat life rafts out and
then they'll come over to you. So

409
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.200
this one, I think too,
is what's important to you. You don't

410
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.839
know all the things they're working on
all the time. So as a hiring

411
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:44.400
manager you have to constantly reprioritize with
your recruiter to get the most out of

412
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.880
their effort. So, if I
know my recruiting teams underwater, two things

413
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.279
are true. One, when I
ask him to come work with me,

414
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:53.799
I better be ready to execute,
because if I do that a few times

415
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:56.319
and I'm not ready, they'll stop
coming when I ask. But the two

416
00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.279
is, once we get into that
meeting, I still have to be able

417
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.279
to help them focus, even more
so if I'm a hiring manager with two

418
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:08.359
roles and I bring a recruiter into
the meeting, the recruiter is thinking,

419
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:11.720
how can I fill both of these
roles for my partner? Whether they're saying

420
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.960
it or not, yeah, they're
not good at saying hey, manager,

421
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.400
I can only work out on one
of these. Which one should I work

422
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.480
on? If that's the case and
I'm really going to ask the hiring managers

423
00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.079
to step up and help continue to
prioritize. Hey, I just had a

424
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.960
meeting over here. That role is
going to be less important. Let's put

425
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.920
all our focus on this one right
and that level of granularity is going to

426
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:37.039
go a long way for the medium
support team. That's great. That's great

427
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.319
that that makes a lot of sense. Make their lives a little bit easier

428
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:44.000
if things are crazy. Especially,
I think one of the underrated things to

429
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:47.079
understand is when you start the processes, an addition to the things that you

430
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:49.240
can own, like plan out what
are we really looking for? Write a

431
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.440
good job of scription, have a
good process and know what each person screening

432
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.920
for. Make sure what the actual
process is to actually get an offer out

433
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.759
to them. Like I was literally
just talking a few minutes ago to to

434
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:06.039
somebody I mentor who is in a
situation where, like they, he was

435
00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.559
helping interview and engineering candidate and everybody
liked him and now they're sitting on it

436
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:12.720
and and I think a lot of
the problem is they're not the ultimate hiring

437
00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:15.000
manager here. They were just involved
in the process. I think you can

438
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.640
run into the issue where you're like, wait, who act? What is

439
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.359
the process to sign off? And
actually prepare an offer for this person and

440
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.880
who owns what parts of that?
If you don't know and you wait until

441
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.119
the candidate you have a candidate you
want to hire, are you may fumble

442
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:34.640
and lose that person because of something
that could have been prevented. Love.

443
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.039
It was sometimes like the CFO needs
to sign off on the offer and no

444
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:41.079
one's thinking about that and it costs
you three days. That's how you lose

445
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.400
the candidate. It's like, Yep, we all knew that on the first

446
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.559
day when we started this pot.
Should have yeah, we should have right,

447
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:48.960
yeah, Toda, yeah, or
what is? I know there's a

448
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.519
number of companies that they want to
make a really strong impression. So the

449
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.440
recruiting team wants to be involved in
the offer, which I think I saw

450
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.920
I'll twillio famously sends like a gift
basket along with your offer, like why

451
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.759
send it with Fedex when you can
send a whole basket with swag and the

452
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.920
whole thing, making you feel like
you're part of the team. Like things

453
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:08.640
like that are great, but you
better plan ahead or that cool things going

454
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.680
to show up right after. They
say, Hey, I signed with this

455
00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:14.720
other company. That's right. That's
right. And one thing you're by the

456
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.799
way. You're hinting at this.
I want to hit ahead directly. Yeah,

457
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:22.119
Execution Still Beats gimmicks every day and
recruiting and a lot of times we

458
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:26.240
talked to customers, they're like this
is how we close talent. Our CEO

459
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:29.440
talks to them and then our board
member talks to them and an investor talks

460
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:34.359
to them and in our question is
like why, what are we selling right

461
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.519
at that point, because if you
have the job they want, you don't

462
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.519
have to do those things. If
you're a startup, then they want to

463
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.000
work in a start up. Like
you're already sixty percent of the way there,

464
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.519
and that discussion. So I think
we see a lot of gimmicks that

465
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.359
not only are they poorly executed,
but the intent is it's the wrong solution

466
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.839
to begin with. So if you're
one of those tiving managers, find me.

467
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.839
I got a lot more thoughts on
that one. That's awesome. If

468
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.559
managers listening to this and they feel
like they all man, I'm making a

469
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:03.960
lot of these mistakes, or I've
made a lot of them and I want

470
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.079
to do better in the future.
Like where can they start to level up

471
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.559
their skills, like how can someone
go from being like man, I've just

472
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.319
been winging it and I'm now realizing
that winging it is and cutting it a

473
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.240
lot of these mistakes and issues or
resonating, like where can they go to

474
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:22.920
start to go deeper from what we've
talked about today? Where can they start

475
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.839
to learn to get better at this
beyond just I think we've given a lot

476
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.480
of good boxes checking things to think
about, but like each one of those,

477
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.319
frankly, we could probably do a
whole episode on like each one of

478
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.519
those things individually. So where can
they go to start to learn more and

479
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.240
start to grow their skills, realizing
that if you're a manager, hiring is

480
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.640
never going away. You will always
be hiring for the rest of your career.

481
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:48.039
That's right. Yeah, and I
love this question because there's the every

482
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:52.279
high manager I've met with always has
a tool about to about when I meet

483
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.799
them, and one of the things
we do is to point that out.

484
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:59.359
The number one thing hiring managers can
do to improve, if you ask me,

485
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.039
is start with the most basic things, and it sounds tripe, but

486
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:08.079
I'll say them listening, like listening
skills really, Jason, like market information

487
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:18.240
candidates and recruiters having an open mindset
and a level of determination wrapped around this

488
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.599
work and my but it is let's
say you're the director of product management,

489
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:27.680
okay, and I asked you to
give me a product road map over the

490
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:32.720
next night. In my assumption is
I would get something very thoughtful and broken

491
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:37.359
down and sequenced with dependencies, etc. For Product and then if I ask

492
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.880
you for your hiring plan, all
of a sudden I get a Napkin on

493
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.480
it. I scribbles right, and
so then I try to make time manage

494
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:48.440
like look, you have crazy skills
for solving problems. Let's apply those skills

495
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.279
to this problem and take this problem
serious and understand that it's very valuable when

496
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:57.160
you solve it. And just that
mind mindset shift is going to take folks

497
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:00.599
listening to this and to the next
level. But I think from there,

498
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:07.279
how do you continuously learn, develop
and integrate your hiring practices? Is the

499
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:13.119
same way we do most things,
finding material online or through your network and

500
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.680
finding a way to put it in
play. For me, I find that

501
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:21.920
twitter is actually very helpful content like
this, the way that tweet threads have

502
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:27.240
begun and you can find leaders,
whether that's founders or by function. I

503
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.039
don't. I love plugging you,
Jason, because I point everyone to you

504
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.559
who's interested in product management and leadership
because of how you structure the content.

505
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.920
If I'm someone in product management who
wants to be a better part product manager

506
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:38.920
tomorrow, I can to look up
one of your two tweets that are pinned

507
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:43.039
right now, I can break that
into an action plan and I can go

508
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.160
get better. And so I really
find twitter as a good as a content

509
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:50.480
as a good content place. More
so, the linkedin read it is another

510
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:55.079
place where you can find a lot
of great content. My my advice for

511
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:58.920
this is to have a topic in
mind, though, if you're going to

512
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:00.640
go hunting, so, for example, a pole. Let's give you one

513
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:06.839
top grading. If you're a new
hiring manager, it's you probably will have

514
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.319
someone in your network recommend that you
do top I would not recommend you do

515
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:13.880
that. We don't have enough time
on the call to explain why, unfortunately,

516
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.079
but you could very easily go research
and make a decision by searching top

517
00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:20.759
grading on read it or twitter right
now, and so I think that's where

518
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.000
I would say talk to your friends, develop your baseline knowledge and then let's

519
00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:28.880
move over to these content platforms.
Do you have any favorite people who,

520
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.920
in particular, tweet a lot about
hiring that people should follow if they are

521
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:38.359
on twitter? My favorites right now
I love following a lean learner from interviewing

522
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:43.839
dot io, because she's built an
interviewing platform. It's peace technology, but

523
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:49.160
she releases data all the time from
it that is awesome, insightful data you

524
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.480
can't really get anywhere else. And
it's Ali and e for those you out

525
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:57.920
there. And I really have following
areland right now as well because of higher

526
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.440
runner, her startup that she's building
in the inclusion space and just she's clearly

527
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:07.039
taking a radical approach. She's building
a recruiting startup and somebody you know put

528
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:09.280
on twitter. Hey, I replied
two months ago, I haven't heard back,

529
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:15.079
and who responded in seven minutes.
Her her response ten out of ten

530
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.079
and I was just like Ye,
look, if you're like a hiring person,

531
00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:21.280
you have no excuse, because she's
running a company and doing a bunch

532
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.280
of other things and she still read
a tweet and responded. It's a to

533
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.639
the applicant, just one applicant.
So those are the folks I get really

534
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.679
excited about. I'll send a follow
up. There's some funny cooters you should

535
00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:32.639
all follow if you're hiring managers because, yeah, they'll save you from making

536
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:36.559
mistakes. But Joel is one of
them and I forget his last name.

537
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:37.840
That's I'll follow up, but he's
cool. Yeah, these are the kind

538
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:39.960
of things we love to put in
the show notes because we know people are

539
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:43.760
hungry for that kind of like further
learning reading, to build on it,

540
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:45.519
because it gets them excited and interested
and then they want to go deeper.

541
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.119
Appreciate the will make sure to put
those in the show notes. Cool.

542
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:52.880
Thinking about the big picture, then, what's the first thing you should do

543
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:54.639
right now? If they realize the
recruiting process is a masks where they're going

544
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.719
to be hind for the first time
soon, like, how do you get

545
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:00.320
started, because this could feel like
a mountain of a lot of things to

546
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:01.480
change and try out and learn about. So so, like, how do

547
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:05.880
you get started? I'm about to
hire my first person or my current process.

548
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:07.199
I realize it's just a disaster and
I should like the whole thing on

549
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:10.800
fire. How do you how do
you rebuild or get started and take that?

550
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.320
What is that first step? Yeah, I'd be a at cheeky here.

551
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:19.000
I think about this like rapid prototyping. That's to borrow from our friends

552
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.639
and products and engineering. Okay,
let's play it out. I'm a hiring

553
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.119
manager. I have a business need, so I'm going to hire someone right

554
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:29.920
now for that business need and I
want to be efficient and effective in this

555
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:31.719
process. So the first thing I'm
going to do is I'm going to take

556
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:36.159
this job that I want to fill
or this process that I want to vet

557
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.280
to either one of your examples.
Yeah, and I'm going to reach out

558
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:44.800
to a small cluster of people.
Now, if you have a vast network,

559
00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:47.760
you can go there if you're brave
and you're not afraid to link not

560
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:51.760
you're not afraid to use linkedin.
I would challenge you to go to people

561
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:54.760
you don't know. And here's the
idea. I'm a new director of product

562
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:59.280
I'm hiring my first lead product manager. Here's what I'm going to do.

563
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.960
I'm going to go on Linkedin every
morning for about ten or fifteen minutes.

564
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:05.360
Okay, I'm going to plan to
do this for two weeks. I'm going

565
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.599
to go on Linkedin every morning for
ten to fifteen minutes, and every morning

566
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:14.559
I'm going to look for three to
five people that are really interesting to me

567
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:17.199
for this role that I'm hiring for. I don't know for sure, but

568
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.920
I there's a few reasons why may
think they're interesting. What I'm going to

569
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.920
do is I'm just going to send
them a really simple note saying, Hey,

570
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:27.920
I'm about to open a roll.
One of my methods, one of

571
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.920
my tactics here, is to network
quickly with a few folks who look good

572
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:36.039
for the role, to share what
I'm thinking, to get feedback from the

573
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.760
market ahead of all the interviewing.
Yeah, right, and you're going to

574
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:43.239
send that message and you're going to
go back to work, but you're going

575
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.440
to do that every morning for a
week and over the next week you're going

576
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:51.880
to have either responses or calls that
you've set up to talk with these folks

577
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:53.960
and you're going to have the same
conversation that you're having your head and you're

578
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.599
going to have it with a real
human that's out in the market right now.

579
00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.719
That could be good for your role. We don't know, and I

580
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.599
think there's a couple of call outs
here. One notice we're being really transparently

581
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:06.440
reach out to people. Yeah,
we're not saying, Hey, we're interviewing.

582
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:07.039
We're not interviewing. Were saying hey, we're we are going to be

583
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.119
opening a job, but we're not
yet, and I'd love to get ahead

584
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:12.920
of that. If you tell folks
that, they'll get on the call knowing

585
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.360
they don't have to tell them we're
interviewing or not. No pressure on the

586
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.239
call right when you get it,
when you get into the call, keep

587
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.519
it simple. Hey, thanks for
making time. Like I said, I'm

588
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.679
trying to learn before I hire for
this role. Right, I'm hiring for

589
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:28.159
a lead product manager. Here's how
I'm going to pitch it. What do

590
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.199
you think? What questions would you
have? Of did I say anything to

591
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:35.000
concern? Your background looks great.
I wish you would be interested in this

592
00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:37.000
role. Would you like again?
I'm not asking people to be sales folks,

593
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.360
but don't be afraid to ask the
honest question. That's your warm up,

594
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:45.599
right, and so I would encourage
it doesn't matter if you've hired before,

595
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:50.519
not, if you haven't hired recently
for the role that you're hiring for.

596
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.679
The market moves very fast and I
would encourage you to do some rapid

597
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:59.239
prototyping before you start putting stakes in
the ground. That's great. That's really

598
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:01.000
great too. So if you're messaging
three to five people for a week,

599
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:06.159
that's summer, between fifteen and twenty
five messages, how many? How many

600
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:08.400
people should they expect they talked to? And how many is enough for this

601
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:13.199
kind of like iteration? Do you
think? Yeah, and so again,

602
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.760
I think if you're sending fifteen to
twenty messages, depending on your profile and

603
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:20.559
who you're you're going to see twenty
five to forty percent of those come back

604
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:22.480
and say sure, I'll take a
call. So if you're going to if

605
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:28.599
you send twenty over a week or
so and you get four or five conversations,

606
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:30.440
that's money in the bank. The
amount of data from those calls is

607
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:35.400
great. Even one call, though, would be exponentially better than none.

608
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:39.039
Even the lowest performing conversion it is
still worth fifteen minutes of morning for a

609
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:43.199
week. Sure. Sure, that's
a very good point. Cool. And

610
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.360
so last question. You know,
what's one simple thing? Any manager,

611
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:50.800
regardless of where they're at in their
interview and recruiting skills, what's one thing

612
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:52.880
they can to get better at hiring
recruiting based on what we talked about today?

613
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.840
Like, regardless of how good recruiter
you are and hiring manager you are,

614
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:00.599
what's one thing they should think about
doing today when they take their headphones

615
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:01.800
in there here about that? Yeah, man, I again. I hate

616
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.039
to be so simple, but it's
just just showing up is such a big

617
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:12.440
deal in hiring right, like not
canceling interviews last minute, not rescheduling,

618
00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:15.559
showing up to meet your recruiting team
every week, even if the pipe isn't

619
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:20.480
super full. Just show up and
listen, really listen. And I say

620
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:24.360
this because I feel like too many
hiring managers want to be experts before.

621
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:28.480
It's like they want to run before
they for they walk or they crawl and

622
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:30.599
say, in my experience, the
ones that have been willing to show up

623
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:37.599
and listen first, the the velocity
comes and they've gone on to build massive

624
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.639
teams, organizations, exits, all
the things. But if you walk in

625
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:43.519
the room and you're just talking to
people like you're not going to win this

626
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:46.960
game. That's great, awesome are
and this has been an awesome discussion.

627
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:51.159
Is there any other advice you really
wanted to share today or anything that we

628
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:52.880
didn't get a chance to talk about
today? Recruiter is the hardest job to

629
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:55.760
fill in the market right now.
So if you're a hiring manager and you

630
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.719
don't have a recruiting team, I
wouldn't expect it to change overnight. I

631
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.960
think the second thing is hiring is
really the first part of the equation.

632
00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:06.800
What you do with them once you
hire them is everything. Again, I

633
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.760
fell in love with lighthouse and in
one on ones from a management perspective so

634
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.800
long ago, Jason, because that
is how you actually nurtured the hard work

635
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.119
of your recruiting team. That is
how you actually show them you care.

636
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:21.719
You keep treating that employee great when
they get there and you invest and you

637
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.159
help them grow. So I guess
my bigges piece advice is don't get caught

638
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:27.800
up in all the hiring, as
as important as I think it is investing

639
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.880
your team and keep doing the right
things that way. Yeah, certainly,

640
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:32.760
replacing people gets expensive fast, so
you want to have a good process.

641
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:36.000
You bring in the right person,
but then once you have them, the

642
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:39.280
real work begins to build that relationship
and make them successful, because nothing's more

643
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:45.239
expensive than going through a haphazard hiring
process and then having to repeat that process

644
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:49.519
a few months later for the exact
same role. That's right, that's fine,

645
00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:52.599
cool, Erin. Thank you again
for joining us today. Be sure

646
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:53.760
to check out the show notes.
Will have links to some of the stuff

647
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:57.639
that Aaron told us about, some
tips for further reading and for you to

648
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.920
be able to find Aaron. And
so this has been the creating high performing

649
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:04.920
teams podcast and we look forward to
the next episode and we'll talk to you

650
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:05.320
then. Thank