Command F: One Part Science, Three Parts Intuition

Jenna Arnold: Command F lives between the world we are building and the wisdom we have inherited. We hold AI's astonishing power in one hand and 5,000 years of Jewish thought, ritual, and argument in the other, asking how to navigate what is coming without surrendering what is sacred. I'm Jenna Arnold, and together with some of today's most compelling thinkers, we explore the ancient questions resurfacing inside our most modern technologies. As AI changes how we create, remember, relate, and understand ourselves, we ask whether the questions beneath this revolution have been with us all along. Love has always lived somewhere between destiny and decision. The person we stumble upon, the person our community places in our path, and the person we ultimately choose. In this episode, Greta Tuvison and Nikki Lewis show us what human matchmakers notice that data cannot easily name. Molly Tolski reveals the loneliness, family pressure, and communal longing underneath modern Jewish dating. Philippa James takes us inside the effort to turn compatibility into an algorithm. And Rabbi Jonas Schiller asks what Jewish tradition believes partnership is actually for. Together, they move us from intuition to culture to computation and finally to the values beneath the match. We are delighted to welcome Greta Tuvison and Nikki Lewis, the co-founders of the Bevi, a highly selective matchmaking service built On the belief that genuine connection requires human attention, discernment, and curation. For more than a decade, they have worked closely with people seeking partnership, learning to read not only what clients say they want, but their emotional readiness, timing, chemistry, and the patterns that may be keeping them from finding it. Welcome, ladies. So, Greta and Nikki, you operate in an ecosystem that I find fascinating. And I find it fascinating because finding love, finding significant others feels like it's an interesting temperature for the state of society and ultimately where the world is going. And so Greta and I were recently talking about how the landscape Has shifted in the past 10 years. So without getting too much into your business model, which I think we can just simply say is folks who are interested in finding a significant other will go to the Bevi and hire your services and you will curate ⁓ a series of experiences of introductions for them that you think might work. But tell us how trying to figure out how to find your other has changed since you started. Yeah, I think well in 2014, which is really when we launched this company, there was still a ton of optimism around app dating. And it was really exciting. And I think people are still optimistic that they will find their person on an app, but I think that there are too many options. There's something so beautiful about hearkening back to ancient times when you didn't have the world at your fingertips. Because it forced you to focus on one person. And not only that, you weren't picking someone. You almost you felt chosen by someone. And that's none of that is happening anymore. People are doom scrolling, they're swiping, they're not getting to know someone, and they're not even giving someone an opportunity. If you were to ask Greta and I ourselves how we met our significant others, it wasn't on an app. It was in real life, in real. Kismet moments and these happenings in life are just completely missing now. Yeah. I I to echo what Nikki was saying. I think curation is about intention. And with all the distractions that we have today, not only the dating apps, but just social media, the news, you know, everything that's constantly being fed to us. So it's so hard to focus and really understand and and really know what's going to keep you interested. And I think that's what we help people do is say, put everything away, get rid of all the distractions, and let us help you be intentional about meeting your person, which is ultimately one of the most important decisions you make in your life. It's so easy to create ⁓ a personality over text if you're good at it. Right. But In person, it's much harder. And you can't truly be true to yourself unless you can do it in person. Matchmaking might be one of humanity's oldest technologies. Long before AI, there were mothers, there were rabbis, village makers, rituals, communal networks trying to solve the same question. How do humans find each other? Is your market flush with agencies like yours, or is everyone still going for the cheap, quick, satisfactory app? We're just a different buyer, so to speak. I think that there are some people who get so disenchanted with the apps because they don't form lasting connections. They almost become pen pals. Nothing is getting off the initial platform. And they're saying, My time is so valuable to me. I am so busy doing XYZ. I don't have this kind of time to waste. I'm gonna optimize my time and hire professionals who have made this their entire livelihood who are going to be in all the places that I can't be to help me find the right person for me. Yeah, we call it we use the analogy all the time that we say it's boutique shopping versus department store shopping. So there's some people that prefer the abundance. They want to at that time of your life. Yeah. Right. Yes. They're like, I want all the choices in the world and I will take my time because I have it, maybe you know, and And I will go through them and decide myself. And then there's others who are the boutique shoppers who say, This is a pool of things that I like. And you know, it's much more curated. It's my style, it's my taste. And I will shop within that versus the massive department store. That's how we sort of describe it, dumb it down. But but I would say like from that analogy, I'm both a department store shopper and a boutique shopper throughout my life. But like also know that there's different chapters for it. Someone ⁓ offered a comment saying that ⁓ they feel like apps have made people less courageous. And at a party in the nineties, people had guts. You had to walk up to to individuals and one of the backbones of this series is that There are ancient technologies that can be helpful today. And one of my fears around AI's role in dating is that we stop honing our intuition. So how have you all honed your intuition for other people? Like what does a a a connection that feels like a success looked like to you all? It oftentimes looks so different. Like Greta and I have been known to call a client and say, she's nothing that you told me that you want. But I have this like overwhelming sensation that almost brings me to my knees that like you were meant to meet this person. There's something so fascinating and like deep about what we do. And I think it's why we keep doing it. It's this timing and coincidence. Around people being in the right place at the right time that excites Greta and I so much and being able to meet this person and pick up on their energies that may not transcribe onto a piece of paper is so magical. Yeah, it's so true. We always say it's one part science, three parts intuition. And wow. I think sometimes because and Nikki and I have been partners for a very long time and we work really well together because we're also very different. So it's good to have not just one perspective, but a few. It's so easy to tell someone something, point out something that they're doing wrong, but you need to internalize that yourself. ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. So I was picking the same person over and over again, expecting a different result. And then I thought You know what? I pick Greta as a business partner because she and I are so different and we complement each other. We're like the perfect yin and yang. And I said, maybe that's what I should be picking for my life partner is not someone who is the same as me, but someone who balances me. And I think Greta and I have been working together so well for 16 years. And why my husband, who is the most opposite person than me, work out so well. Yeah. Ida, do you think you and Greg are opposite? I don't know if we're opposite. I mean, we definitely have synergy and commonalities, but I think what keeps our relationship strong and exciting is that we're constantly learning from each other. And because we have different perspectives, we truly do. We do not agree on everything at all. I think it's easy and it feels comfortable to ⁓ dive into a relationship where you're similar. It feels familiar. It makes it easy for families and traditions and all those things. And people are a little bit hesitant and nervous about learning new things sometimes when it comes to that. And in a relationship where you are different and you're learning from each other, it just continues to grow. And I think when everything is the same, you just start cohabitating and you don't really thrive off of each other as you should. I imagine Clients might come, either the ones that have had previous relationships, have realized they are something different, want something different, or clients who have their own wounds that are still healing and they're like, but I want to be sure. How do you phrase and hold this idea of certainty around the most important decision theoretically? As you're like setting someone sail. There's no such thing as certainty. Yeah. There never is. Guarantee anything. Yeah. Even the concept of soulmate. Like it was the term soulmate invented to make ourselves feel certain. Why is that term there? Like Greta said something once that I thought was so funny. Like, your soulmate could have lived across the continent 500 years ago, if that's a real thing. Like he Your person also has to be geographically ⁓ desirable and in a good stage of their life. There are so many things that come into play. It's like the people who say everything happens for a reason. Right. Does everything does everything happen for a reason? Is everything faded? No, there's beauty in the decision that you make as a human that I am choosing this person. And I'm gonna do the work that it takes to make this work. And I think people. get so fixated on this sort of like vision or dream versus living in the present. And I think that's an a big issue and people need to be of course you have to think about long term in a certain way, but you also have to live in the moment and try things. You have to like Clear the cobwebs around this intuition that I deeply believe that we all have, that this is like a generational thing that has just been silenced. It's not that it's gone. You just have to like clear the cobwebs a bit. But it does our lack of relationship with our own intuition make your job harder, particularly with the people who are like, we want to be certain? Or do you like, are you even spending time with clients being like, we want to be certain? Or is it because it's a service that you're like, No promises and they understand the deal. Well, there, you know what? It's a package deal. Not only do you get ⁓ our matches, but you get our opinions, whether you want them or not. Right. Yeah. ⁓ so we're, you know, we're able to kind of point out to certain clients, some clients, this kind of seems like a numbers game and they just want options, options, options. That's when I tell Greta she has to be scary and say, no, this is not how it works. Yeah. Because we really want and we love the clients who really have kind of done that work and they know their love languages and they know the personality type that really works for them. And this is a really curated, specific, specialized search because this client has done so much work and really knows the type. Have your suggestions to your clients about the quote unquote work that they have to do. shifted over the past 10 years and what is often the like mirror holding up question you're posing to them. I don't know if you know this about our firm, but we protect your privacy. So we do not share pictures or last names. So the dates are blind, which is very uncomfortable in the beginning. So they are putting a lot of trust in our intuition, which is nice. But what they realize is whatever I'm doing is not working. ⁓ right. Right. So maybe I should work, you know, do the work, get the help to find the person that will work for me or that will sort of drive with me. And sometimes they will listen and and they trust us. And sometimes we have to pivot. Sometimes they'll be like, you know, I I gave it a chance doing it your way. Sometimes we just say, Okay, it's dealer's choice because you know, we've been pivoting and you know, kind of Let go of the reins a little bit and really let us do our job. That's when things get really fun for us, is when our clients stop micromanaging and they really let us do what we know we were put here for, which is really kind of that intangible magical put that you can't quantify. So do you think, Nikki, do you think going back to this intuition that you had so beautifully described? Like this concept of Besharet, that like there is that person out there for you. Does that theory get in the way of people exploring? Not at all. But Besharet can mean so many things. Like Tell us all the meanings. Well, because because it's there's divine timing. You're in the same place emotionally to meet this person. You're both single. You've you're both ready to accept love and you're ready to supply it and give it. you were able to meet each other at the right moment. There's so much beauty in that beshared, but there could be so many people on the planet who would be amazing matches for you. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have the opportunity to meet them. So What's really beautiful in our business is that we can we can time that out because we're in all the places that our clients aren't. One of our members accused me of being a witch in the best way possible after a date. She said, Are you you're a witch? You're a witch. And and because she said, This was Besharit. This was remarkable. I said, That's what I felt when I met you. ⁓ Like a day before I met him. And I was like, this is wild. And then we came to learn that her best friend wanted to introduce her to this guy in like seventh grade and said, this would be her person. And you know, that she's off of a 13-year relationship and she's ready and that she met this person. Like, there's something so Remarkable about that and probably why Greta and I are so sick in the head about this. And just like we outsource so many things in life, it's the same way, you know, real estate agents, an art dealer, you know, a headhunter, all those things are are very much related to what we do. And it is important, I think, that you don't, you know, in the world of AI and apps and all those things, that you don't overwhelm yourself with so many choices because you'll never be able to decide. It's just, it's too much. There's too much out there. It sounds like Nikki and Greta, you both have done a masterful job at honing your intuition, which in some cases, like it just hits you in the face. It's not like you're lighting certain candles on certain nights. But do you think algorithms have gotten in the way of people? understanding what love and companionship and partnership is. You're automatically reducing the candidate pool because you're filling out whatever you think actually works for you. But maybe you don't really know what actually works for you because you haven't tried anything. Right. Because you try to pick the same thing over and over again. Are people all trying to pick the same kind of person? Over and over again? How much does like Reese money, geography, hobbies, religion, ethnicity, race, how much do those things matter now? They do matter. They do everything matters to a to a degree. It's about finding the balance of each of those things, or sometimes pivoting and saying, you know what, I've emphasized so much someone that also plays tennis. And you know what? Maybe maybe I don't actually need that to be happy. Like small things like that. And and you know, clients who finally start stripping away criteria that they had originally thought was so crucial. Once we start saying, hey, you know what? Hey, I know that you were you were looking for someone Jewish, but this person, not Jewish, Catholic, but How funny. They grew up really similarly to you. Big family dinners. Their parents are still married. They're really family oriented and they're totally open. Why don't you try that? Yeah, the algorithms really limit your options. I talk about it all the time with people when they ask, Well, do you think I should do anything differently on the apps? And I say. You know, extend your age by ten years. People limit themselves to such a small window. Everyone's looking for the unicorn always. Yeah, and it's and they give themselves such a small window, especially when it comes to those like hard, you know, the criteria like the age, the religion, ethnicity. and and you're just limiting yourself. And when someone else is doing it for you, not a computer or an algorithm, you know. You're going to push the boundaries much more. So that that is the problem with the algorithm. Which is why I feel like you all, again, this ancient job of matchmaking, which used to be community-dependent, ant-dependent, mother, Jewish mother-dependent. And now everyone's like, How can we get the algorithm to maximize this? As I mentioned at the top of the episode, we are having someone come on who just launched an AI dating app. And I do think there is in this like very capitalistic world so much exchanged based on like the department store model. I can go and I can pick lots of different things and also very department story return it if I don't like it. Walk away if I don't like it. It is well that's why you date. And that's that's why you date before you marry someone. And also like we're not We're not yentas, so to speak. The reason we started this business was because, you know, for lack of a better term, that's all that kind of existed in our industry when we started doing this. And, you know, we just thought there, there is a different way to do this and a fresher way. And, you know, that being said, it's still a superficial business. We're still the the dates are blind, but we are still really making sure on the back end and physically that like this is a compatible fit. Even if it's not what you originally thought or intended. In our final minutes, I I am really curious about the difference in what people are looking for today than what they were looking for a decade ago. And you mentioned something along the lines of people being interested in meeting people who have a different level of literacy and knowledge of who they are. And that that's a different kind of expectation that people have that they know sort of their baggage, their hand of cards. We touched on this a little bit. But are there is there anything else that really stands out to you for what people are looking for in partnership today that's different than when you started a decade ago? That's a great question. I do think that it It's definitely shifted in the sense of especially after COVID, geography was so important before and now people are much more open minded as far as where that person lives. And and because people have learned how to work remotely and they sort of are understanding, like, ⁓ my gosh, we have this pandemic and who am I to think that my to you know, my person, you know, lives in Manhattan, you know, like that's just Silly. I can't assume that. I do have I feel like Nikki, and correct me if I'm wrong. I think also we've seen a shift in, and I feel like you read it also, is that some people were like, ⁓ it doesn't matter what religion or their pedigree or anything. And now it's the pendulum has swung a little bit back to, you know, I do religion is more important to me today. And I do, you know. their values have to be aligned with mine. And that's I guess pretty common. It's half and half. It's you know, we have some clients who are so like by the ball. I feel like the whole reason to come, you know, hire a service like ours is to get out of your social circles, to get out of your comfort zone and out of your own echo chamber. And you know, live a little bit on the with a remarkably quality person. Okay, final question. I'm curious if there are any red flags that people often overlook in their search that you both see clearly from the perch that you have. Is there anything that you feel like, look, I I know you want this on your list. I'm taking it off right away. That's a hard one to kind of quantify. I think as far as red flags, we are a business and we do so much screening before a date actually happens. So we have people fill out questionnaires. ⁓ so if we have a client who's talked about how maybe mental illness played a part in the disintegration of his last relationship, you know, we're kind of like, okay, someone who maybe has depressed or has those. those traits pop up. We're listening to the past experiences and how are we pivoting moving forward? So I mean everyone's red flags are different, but I think we take away from our part our clients' last relationships, where they need to pivot, and just only really looking towards those people. Yeah. That makes sense. I think we also It's almost tell people not to assume certain things are red flags. We talk a lot about like people have different styles of communication. You might be really quick to text back and always be on your phone or whatever it is. Other people don't operate like that. And you have to remember, you have to you have to have perspective and you have to have empathy and understand like they maybe they had a bad day and that's why they're not responding very quickly. And I think everyone gets so stuck in what they do and they don't necessarily put themselves in other people's shoes. So we're just we talk a lot about like don't assume that's a red flag, you know, there's people who have incredibly passionate relationships and there's red flags all over the place, but they can't see them because they're just so deeply infatuated and can't get out. And I mean that happens, of course. and sure, we'll try to point those out if we feel if we feel like it's going sideways, but ⁓ It i it is hard to see them. It can be. Well, Greta and Nikki, I have to say I didn't have an appreciation for the kind of work that you do for community and self-building until after this conversation. Thank you so much for doing your work. And it also sounds like so much fun. I'm sure there's moments where the two of you are like texting each other in bed being like, ⁓ my God, can you believe blah blah blah? Like that. Also sounds fun. Yeah, it's also fun. That also sounds really fun. But I wish we all had a Greta and a Nikki in our lives on so many different fronts. I mean, this is what it means to have people who are really good at listening to their intuition on your behalf. So thank you. We will make sure anyone who wants your expert guidance will be able to find you. Greta, Nikki, thank you so much for coming. Feelings are mutual, Jenna. Thank you for having us. Molly Tulski is the founder and editor of Heiyama, which is a community of people who have a shared lived experience around being American and Jewish and Jewish. She holds a number of different degrees in writing, which is why I think she's done such a beautiful job of threading the needle of what it means to have that identity in today's world. She has had a lot of success in creating opportunities for people to find each other. ⁓ and Obviously, that is what we're gonna talk to her about. So Molly, thank you so much for coming. Hello. Hey Molly, how are you? Hi. Good. How are you? It's so nice to meet you. I'm really excited that you're here. Thanks so much for inviting me. I'm super excited to talk about this and it's really interesting listening ⁓ to the to the professional matchmakers and to the professional matchmakers, which it's sort of like, okay, wait, they're professional because we have monetized matchmaking, because obviously we live in a capitalistic world, but like Gosh, that is ancient technology right there. Age old profession. Yeah. With your success in the classified, one I wanna understand how they came to be. Maybe I can talk more about how our classifieds work, but people kind of go off on their own after we set them up. And so I'm not there could be marriages out there. I'm not even aware of something like s sacred about that. You know, that you're not you're not in it for understanding the destination. And I think that's what Greta and Nikki were also referencing is like there's a lot of different structures to a lot of different relationships today. And and aren't we so lucky that so many women have decided that we deserve differently structured relationships today? hundreds of years ago over the past thousands of years. But how do the classifieds emerge? So I love your description of Hey Allah. I think that's dead on. And our mission from the very beginning was to create an online community for young Jews, define young how you want, but for people who might not feel like they are part of an in-person Jewish community for whatever reason. they don't you know, maybe they don't belong to a synagogue or they don't live around a lot of other Jewish people, or they have other aspects of their identity that, you know, makes it more difficult. And we want to be kind of that radically inclusive space for young Jews and a place where they can kind of connect and see where they have a lot in common and also see where like there's a huge diversity of of Jews and a huge diversity of opinions and experiences also learning from each other. ⁓ so that's like the core mission, right? And then you know it's funny because you had like set some questions ahead of time and I was like, how did the classified come to be? Because we've been doing them now. for five years and it just feels like an inherent part of what we do. But I was like I'm trying to remember how it came to be. ⁓ and I searched through our Slack archives between the Hey Alma team. And can I read you? So ⁓ in January of two thousand twenty one. One year after the pandemic started. Exactly. One year into the pandemic, I kind of posted on Slack seemingly apropos of nothing. Guys, considering how horny our followers are, I feel like we need to provide some sort of dating matchmaking service. I don't know what that would be, just putting it out there. Later. So you were you were looking on behalf of sex, not on behalf of like matchmaking the sharing. E I P excelitrae. I had no we had noticed that the commenters on our Instagram post, they were like a little thirsty, right? And they would like, you know, just kind of you know, maybe it was about a celebrity that we posted or just like they they were like, yeah, they were out there putting themselves out there. ⁓ and we had often joked about like, ⁓ our audience is like smarty. I don't know. Like they and then from there, you know, we kind of discussed and I said, like, ⁓ like what if we post classifieds on our Instagram? Like maybe we can post people's pictures and what they're looking for. and one of my colleagues was like, no, like that's cringy. Like we don't like it it it I've seen people do that and I don't really like it. And then I remember we got on like an actual video call. ⁓ and we, you know, we're talking about how this this idea of old school classified ads was really exciting and it felt like a real antidote to dating ads, having them be completely anonymous and not having any pictures attached and not even knowing these people's names and just letting people kind of define who they are and what they're looking for and putting it out there. And then just like we are just the megaphone for them to shout into, you know, this selective group of people who have chosen to be part of this online space. So like you're naturally already kind of within this group of people who have are, you know, vibing with us the same way that you are. but also part of, you know, classifieds from the beginning is that it's not just looking people looking for for dating or for potential partners. So we we do a lot of classified ads looking for friends, being in a new city, a for Jewish fries, looking for people to play mahjong with, looking for people to have dinner with. So it was always open to any kind of connection that people were looking for. Right. Well, you know one thing that I thought was really cute. I really got into it last night. ⁓ because in in prep for this episode, I find my found myself on in lots of different Hey Alma content. And I just want to like pause for a real quick second and tell you that I went into the full anti-Semitism Copy and having written curricula, so like I that was what I did 20 years ago. Thank you guys. I I truly had like 30 links open. I read every single word of that. And I think you did. You have come closest to threading the needle and holding the whole thing in a way that feels digestible for people. So, like, really congrats on that. Very pleased that it's not what I wanted to spend my Thursday night doing. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. So anyway. I f what I loved about the classified was how like witty and shticky and like community-oriented it is. And it strikes me that again, I recognize it was Jan 2021. I recognize that the people who are in your spaces skew younger and are probably hornier. Like I get all of those things, but there's a part of me that really feels like there are people. Who know how important it is to help other people find people. And that ancient art form of matchmaking, of listening to your intuition, of community building. Look, I believe the only way out of fascism, I believe the only way out of these terrible headlines is community and like care for each for each other. And I don't even know what that looks like, but it is the return. To some of that technology that for the Jewish community they've sort of always known. But I love how funny your classified are. I mean, and it is so blunt but unbiased. And it strikes me that it's they're quite vulnerable. I think maybe one of the best benefits of somebody trying to submit a classified is that you are forced to articulate who you are and what you're looking for. And yes, like to do it in a in a charming, funny way. ⁓ and you know, we're we get hundreds of submissions. We can't feature them all. So we're also choosing the ones that we think, you know, are are the the funny, the funniest ones or the the ones that feel like there there's something special there that we want to highlight and that we want to help ⁓ this person find and what they're looking for. But but yeah, it does it, you if you don't know what you're looking for, you can't write the classified ad. And if you don't know how you're gonna describe yourself. It's just it's not gonna actually connect with with somebody else. So even though I have a full busy life, like I still think I'm longing for something. And the classifieds to me in the Hey Alma community feel like they're the tip of that iceberg. Yeah, I agree. I think right. It's not it's not just about finding a a ⁓ romantic interest. And I agree with what you said earlier completely about like in these times, ⁓ and when things feel so bad and when the news is so horrible and so hard to look at every day. I know for me personally, finding an in-person real life community has helped me so much. and, you know, I I'm married and I have kids and I when Hey Alma started, I was single and living in Brooklyn and had a very different life. I certainly could have used it then, but I think also now it's like, yes, like if I saw an ad for like fellow Jewish moms in my part of New Jersey, I would jump at that. There's all different kinds of connections that we we crave. A cure to loneliness is actually building out that larger community around you. Well, and one of the things I want to specifically talk to you about on this episode is the cultural expectation of our Jewish mothers and grandmothers and the culture in gen in general to find a partner. Talk to me about how you interpret the Jewish cultural context of marriage and two by twoing. And then the commitment to like having to marry another Jewish person and has that evolved and like so crack all that open for us. Sure. Easy peasy. I think it is built into Judaism and this. importance of community and this importance of continuity. ⁓ and I think for many people, like the most obvious way of kind of ensuring that Jewish tradition and religion and culture lives on is that we keep making Jewish babies, right? That can continue and transmit our cultures down generation to generation. And I think, yeah, I'm sure from a lot of Jewish parents, especially of a certain generation a certain age, there's this feeling like you want your kid to to continue the Jewish traditions and you're scared of what happens if they don't marry somebody Jewish that it won't continue. But I think that's changed a lot in many ways. And I think, you know, as interfaith families and interfaith relationships have gotten to be so much more the norm, there's more examples of people very successfully raising children that feel Jewish and feel proud to be Jewish, even if both of their parents aren't Jewish. And that like the more we can be accepting and open to those families within our Jewish institutions, then the more Jewish babies we will have because we're not pushing people away just because they're not marrying somebody who's Jewish. So there's that side of things. ⁓ and then I think there's just like the part of I'll say a Jewish mother, but I think it's any mother who just like wants her kid to be happy. Right. And I think for a lot of people traditionally getting married is a an excellent worker happiness. Right. Right. Yeah. and I think like for people, you know, growing up now, like there is an understanding of in a rising feeling of like that's not the only path to happiness or to satisfaction or to having a full life with friends and community. ⁓ and there certainly are a number of people realizing for themselves that that might not be the path for them. I never had that spoken pressure, but it was certainly part of the equation. And you know, one of the the objectives of this podcast is to see how we can make the tent bigger for folks that are Jewish, who are Jewish adjacent, who are Jewish. Like, how can we make the ancient technologies that are 5,000-year-old, that have helped many millions of people in a species survive? How can we take some of those rules and see them today and make sure that we're implementing them today? And you know, there's so many prereqs because we think very specific life experiences might lead to compatibility, which I have seen to be both true, but also be the thing that can get boring and make relationships fizzle too. And my understanding around folks' desire to encourage other people to marry more Jews is no different than a recent story that I heard about an indigenous community from Hawaii and how there was one mother who had eight children. And she said the elders in that community keep saying to her and showing up and cooking dinner for her because they're like, thank you for making sure that our legacy, our story, our the things that we know in our bone marrow continue to get passed on from generation to generation. Cause in some cases, like AI is stripping us all from that. But also there's things that like those those intuition things, those community desire things that you've built, frankly, with code, but have been those very undefinable things within the Hay Alma community ultimately get get preserved. Yeah. And I think like I think the people choosing to submit classifieds to Hay Alma are doing so and not because their parents are telling them to, right. And I think it's an important distinction of like I think a lot of young people can choose for themselves what is what is the most important thing here. And I do think especially like the past few years when Politics and news have shifted so many people's identities and has been so challenging for so many people and the Jewish community that there is this growing sense that like it's important for me to be with somebody who's Jewish because they're gonna get it. They're gonna get how challenging it is right now and they're gonna like kind of speak the same language. And that like if you're coming to that kind of conclusion on your own, I think that's beautiful and great. I think for most young people it's it's more coming now from an internal place. 'Cause it's a lot of pressure that comes externally. I remember being in college and meeting with like the campus rabbi and him saying, basically, like your ancestors died in the Holocaust and now you're here and you need to go on and have a Jewish family to make up for that. That's an insane thing to say to an eighteen year old. Right. Okay, well, ⁓ Rabbi Yona Schiller's gonna respond to that, but I think Bashir and this sort of like timing and is it meant to be and You know, my biggest fear, and it's something that I have just experienced in myself and in my own partnerships and relationships, is the idea of being certain. And like how do we choose partners versus evaluate partners and like the role that AI plays in that? I mean, as far as how do you choose a partner or evaluate, I also like I don't know if you can really learn. Greta was saying this before me, that part of dating is trial by error. That's how it works. Whether it is you're being set up by a matchmaker or an AI algorithm or hey, Alma classified, or you're meeting somebody out in real life, it's also gonna come down to some dumb luck. So ⁓ Vanessa Pamela Friedman wrote an article titled, How Much Say Should a Jewish Parent Have in Their Child's Dating Life? And this quote is The fact that the parents in these questions are alive to witness their children's future weddings is a huge gift. The fact that there is hopefully a foundation of love in each of these families is a huge gift. The fact that the children in these questions have grown to be their own individual selves, no doubt, helped along by their supportive parents, is a huge gift. We only get one chance in this life. Cultivating gratitude around happiness and love, whether it's enacted in the exact way you envisioned it or not, is one of the gifts of being alive. You know, this is like this interesting. I wanna try to segue to the to the Jewish mother who I do think has some really strong intuition about their Jewish children. I laugh to my friends and have started to sort of say out loud in the vicinity of my children, half joke, but like really underneath it all, very serious. Like, I want to help you figure out the best partner for you. Because there might be blind spots that you might not know about yourself. And I just still think that that pressure exists. Like I think I didn't have anything to do with it, but yet I know I might be perpetuating the cycle of it. Yeah. I mean, I think what you're perpetuating is like you want your kids To be happy, right? And to like be in a good, stable environment. And the person that they choose to spend their life with, that's gonna play a big role in it. My kids are four years old and seven months old. So I am not at all there yet. And I don't know what I will be like when they are older and like dating or, you know, trying to meet people. I I feel like I have been grateful for my parents that they were definitely relationships that they knew were not good from the very beginning. And did they say something? I feel like I knew what they felt without them saying anything. I think they played it right and that I knew what they felt. And they might like ask a few questions or something, but like they also, I think, have always been very much like, you're an adult, like at a certain point, like you're an adult and like you're gonna make these decisions. And I think what they did do is like when things really went south, this was like a very long term relationship that ended in a really traumatic, terrible way. They were there for me. And they like they were there for me like immediately, like and I mean like flying across the country for me. and and they didn't rub it in, right? They were like, we knew this was gonna they were just listened to three years ago. Right Yeah. And like and then I I certainly learned from it. And They didn't have like, you know, at a certain point, as a parent, I would hope like you feel like you have raised your kids just in general to like understand themselves and understand the world and like to learn how to take lessons from your losses and to take lessons from your failures. So that when you get to that point, they can they can kind of ⁓ yeah, figure it out on their own or with a therapist. I have to shout out my therapist, which was also hugely helpful in that time of my life. My final question. How do we root ourselves in more curiosity about How we find and build community that both protects our legacy and our identity and our ancient technology, but also moves us to a, you know, a closer North Star of like caretaking for each other. And I just I wonder ⁓ how identity gets in the way or can also support finding partnerships. I am somebody who is like spending my career building an online community on social media. and social media has been so amazing for so many ways in the ways that we can connect with each other and build a kind of community there. And then, like, obviously, it flattens things completely and it flattens major issues to black and white when they're just they shouldn't be black and white. If you go into the Hey Alma comments on any kind of post that touches on politics or you know, it gets really ugly and and people are are shouting and throwing words at each other and it makes me feel terrible. Like this is not what we set out to do. And we want to bring people together. And it feels like more and more these days there are these like lines being drawn and these factions just being split and it feels really divisive and bad. ⁓ and like I know for me on those days when I'm like feeling like I'm too online, too in the Instagram weeds because I have kids, I'm like going to the playground with my daughter after work and I see another mom or dad and I'm talking to them and it's like a beautiful conversation about whatever. But even if we talk about politics, it still doesn't feel the same as it does online when you do it because it's just you're having a more back and forth and you're seeing each other's faces and it feels like a more human, nuanced connection. This is why I love the idea of the classifieds. It's because we are using the internet and using social media to make these connections, but our hope is that they're allowing people to go off into their own worlds and actually build this kind of community or partnership in their actual life. And I think the more you can be like grounded in where you are and connect with the people who are surrounding you, the the better. So I hope for younger people to be able to balance this like. beautiful kind of tool that lives in your phone to meet people or to learn or to connect with also like the world beyond it. Because community is our only way through this. Well, to conclude, Molly and I, or I will just speak for myself, don't have any better answer for you who's a better matchmaker, the the algorithm or your Jewish mother. But what we do know is that it's about being vulnerable first, likely with yourself. We're so grateful ⁓ to have you on today and thank you so much for creating the community that you've you have and posing the questions in the way that you are. Because if there's any kind of musculature we can have coming out of not just this moment on our page in our collective history, but just in general, it's the ability to ask harder questions of ourselves and each other. without demanding the certainty. Beautifully put. ⁓ thank you so much for having me. This was really fun to talk about and agree. I'm not sure if I am any expert on any of this, but it's fun to to think about and connect with you over. Molly, thank you so much. Thank you. ⁓ We now welcome Philippa James, a marketing leader at Fate, an AI-assisted dating platform designed to guide users toward potential partners and help them navigate the dating process. Philippa brings a new view from inside a company actively trying to use AI to make dating more personal, efficient, and successful. Philippa, welcome. Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. Meet you, Jenna. Tell me, Philippa, like Why this app? I know why AI, but like why this app now? What are you seeing in the market that encouraged you all to do this? So what we found in the market is there was a lot of swiping apps as we know, we know who they are. And there was a kind of disconnection. And what this app is really about is connection. So I know you talk about love, but really I mean, I feel so privileged to be involved in it because what we're trying to do is connect people rather than having lots and lots of different people match with you. So we only match, you know, six matches to a person at any one time. Too many people, there's gonna be people that seem more popular on surface level, like by looks. And then you've got lots of people messaging, other people that have dirty people they're messaging. You know, it just gets messy. People don't build a connection. So this is all about ⁓ building that connection with people. And the whole point of connections, it's about when you get to know people again, it's about understanding, it's about empathy, even from different backgrounds. And there's that disconnect that we have from technology, ironically, in society. And so being involved in an app that starts to connect people who, you know, are looking for something else and they're looking for that. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it always results in love and it always results in a relationship that's a romantic relationship, but it's getting people talking again and it's getting people connecting and it can end up in that. So how how have you found AI helping overcome some of those connection gaps? Because at the top of the conversation we had Greta and Nikki talking about how sometimes in the technological space, it's like shopping at a department store, a, you know, a buffet versus going to a particularly fine restaurant or boutique where there's a little bit more of a limited menu. How are you finding AI helping narrow down people's relationship pool? And Is that the objective? Is it is it love-based relationship or is it any kind of relationship? It I mean it is ultimately a love-based relationship we're going for, but ⁓ that takes time and that takes initial connection and a real connection. It's not the sort of app you go to if you're just looking to hook up or something like that. And that's not what we market it as. When you go into the app, you're onboarded through an AI, which means you can talk to it and it'll ask you questions about yourself. So it makes it really easy. And then it helps populate your profile. Then you finish adding up your profile pictures, things like that. So it starts to understand what you like. Then as you're talking to people, it will understand more and more what you like. So it starts to hone in on who you are. And really, sometimes we don't understand ourselves. We don't know what's good for us, right? So the AI is kind of looking out for ⁓ commonalities, but we also have games on the app, which are. for you to take so that we can understand how you approach things and how you respond. So it's a more value based so that the AI is sort of understanding more and more what you like. So as you go through your matches, if you decide that you're not quite right with someone, it actually asks you a disqualifying question of why why don't you like them, you know, we wanted to build something that that brought safety. It brought the safety element for people using the app so that they understand they can connect with people on a sa in a safe environment and then if there's any issues, this disqualifying question will flag it to us, etc. So we've got control of that, but also it shows you why someone might not match with you. And it gives you a little bit of feedback as well. So you never have that ghosting. It doesn't have a lot of it apps, you know, you'll be talking to someone, they won't talk again. This doesn't have that. You'll always know why. And what are some of the questions that are meaning making? Well, it's asking you what you like and what you dislike. At the beginning it's more surface level when you first create your profile, but as you go through the app and it's starting to get deeper into what you like. We don't want to make the onboarding process hours long, but as you're going through, then you'll get asked more questions and we'll see, ⁓ you don't like this person. They're kind of talking about that and the AI can pick up these nuances in your chats as well. So what is like one of the hard questions that I might be asked that would give you a lot of Insight. There might be a values question and it might it will give you some options about something and then you'd pick an option, for example. So like a a multiple choice, that sort of thing. And it's just it just over time is gonna build up. The thing is with it is it's not like there's been other dating apps where it's so structured. This is generative AI, so it's a little bit more nuanced than a black and white kind of Right. It's not like do you like to right, do you like nature or do you like cities? Right. So tell me how you handle the criticism of AI getting in the way of helping people find partnership when aren't we supposed to be able to do that with our own tuition and with theoretically the help of our community? So I mean I've been working in marketing for many years and I feel like I could use the analogy of marketing. It's like we never just use one channel. We never use one marketing channel to market a business or a company. And it's the same with dating. So it's almost like like when you're marketing something, there's all different touch points and it just gives you another opportunity to meet people. And what I feel the difference is is that there are a lot of people who like obviously There's many people who have great self-expression, but some people are struggling as well with that connection, ⁓ especially after the last few years with what we've been through, where a lot of people had to stay at home. You know, some of the social skills people struggle with. Sometimes people just feel like I don't know what to say, I don't want to say the wrong thing. And what it does is the AI also gives you prompts to help you with that. Some people need it, some people don't. So it'll give you prompts so that you can start the conversation. Because once you get rolling in that conversation, then you know, then you You can start connecting and you'll feel more confident, you you feel like you can have a a deeper conversation with someone. What have you learned about the current dating demographic based on what's coming back at fate? For example, the prompting's quite pro p popular. And I think it's gonna become more popular as people use AI more and more. Can you define what you mean by prompting? So when you're in a conversation with someone, ⁓ say you've had a conversation and they've said something to you You can ask the AI, you can look, they've spoken about this. I'm not sure how to respond. ⁓ so I sound a bit more fun, or so I sound and it will give you a kind of prompt of of suggestions of how you could respond to that person. We found that that's being really being used by a lot of people because as as people use AI more and more, they're they you know they're getting used to having that level of support from AI. Does this end up being a communication? Coaching tool in a way more than anything. Absolutely. Great way to put it. Yeah, exactly. It's just helping you have the have the conversation that will lead to connection between you both. Nikki and Greta at the top of the episode were saying that the biggest challenge that they face with their customers in helping them understand how what is working, what's potential dates and what isn't working is how to interpret. communication tendencies from somebody else that the way that somebody responds might not be the way that you would or maybe they don't respond from nine to five or they only respond every third day. But we do take so much literally from the way that people communicate that I wonder if there's like this level of relief that people feel when the AI can say something like, ⁓ chill out. Like it's 230 on a Tuesday afternoon that might be why they're not responding, or they made a joke about a sports team and that might have just gone completely over your head. Like it it feels like it could theoretically be this like the same thing as that ancient matchmaker in a way. Well it's things can be misconstrued, as you said, on when you're messaging someone. And so it does allow for that kind of impartiality and that coaching there. To because there could be a perfectly wonderful match and there's just one word that's said and someone's misconstrued it in a different way and they then they think, ⁓ they don't like me. Let's move on. So it does it it does help that it's enabling the conversation to get to a level where people can connect and they might connect and think, This is a lovely person, but they're not for me. Or they connect and they think, ⁓ let's see where this goes. Maybe this is a friendship, maybe they talk to them for you know a couple of months. Ultimately, we don't want people on the app for more than three months. We want people to find Find someone, you know, and take it off the app. Philippa, that is like that is really impressive standards for a startup company that that people are gonna find the right connection within three months. I mean, that's that's quite a marketing angle. Well, it's because although, yeah, we we're business and we have to make money, you know, this is about more than that as well. And it's not about the we want people to come on the app. meet the right people. You know, sometimes it might take a bit longer than that. Sometimes it might take less. And then they move on and that is the aim of the app. It's to meet people. It's not to keep people on the app for you know meeting the wrong people all the time. Do you think this is the future of dating? I I a hundred percent think it's part of the future of dating. I also think that community's important. I think me meeting people in person's important. And like I said, some people meet people in person and then they end up bumping into each other on an app. And when they met in person, they couldn't get past that point of just having a nice chat, even if they both liked each other. There's many different ways you can meet people. And there's obviously we're not against meeting people in person. That's great. If you meet people through a friend, that's also wonderful. So it's just another way. If you're struggling and maybe you're feeling a bit lonely, it's it's about meeting another opportunity to meet people. Is it accurate to say that the problem fate is trying to solve is that at some point in a technological digital world, there becomes a communication bottleneck where it's hard to understand what people are saying, or there's a vibe check, or was that a joke, or was that a slight, or was it a that there's this like, it's hard to navigate your intuition. in a technological space. And that's where AI can help. I think that's part of it. I absolutely do. I also think it's to mitigate the the overwhelm. So I think that's a big part of it. It's it's like I said at the beginning, it's about the connection, the understanding, the empathy of people. It's getting more to the heart of those conversations. And misunderstandings cause a lot of problems. And could prevent anything from starting, even if it's not like your ultimate destination. But It can just get in the way of the exploration. Exactly. But then at the same time, you've got when you're on dating apps that and you've got hundreds of matches, it how are you going to build a connection with someone? Right. So this is about restricting the number of matches as well, so that you can learn about yourself through the disqualifications or who who doesn't like you. There's no, you know, there's not the ghosting. So And and it's theoretically a better filter because it helps you eliminate the small talk of like, yeah, it was cold in New York City today. Like you can just you can power through some of that a little bit more quickly, particularly with the value centered questions. Yeah. Well, Philippa, thank you so much for joining. I really appreciate the time and ⁓ look forward to your US launch. Thank you so much. To help us understand the values underneath all of this, we welcome Rabbi Yona Schiller, founder and chief research and development officer of Common Era, an organization working to help Jewish life evolve in response to the present moment. Yona's work asks how inherited Jewish structures can remain meaningful without becoming frozen in the past. Yona, thanks for being here. The only reason this podcast exists is because of this human being who Posed the question to me six months ago saying, Can we make a bigger tent for people who are trying to understand themselves in the world? Is there ancient technology that they could use to help them find themselves better? And then how do they possibly interpret some of those millennia-old theories and thoughts? when it comes to like AI and like what we're supposed to do with AI. And I was like, well, I don't really know how to sort that out, but let's jump in together. So thank you for ideating about this conversation. We are now looking at the landscape of AI dating, which as uncomfortable as it makes me, I also entirely get it. I don't know what to do about it. It's clear that one of the biggest hurdles that people are facing today is how to interpret somebody else's virtual communication effort. Yona, what are some of the ancient technologies that we need to make sure that we talk about and invite people into when it comes to the Jewish people and love finding, love making, love building? I mean, first of all, I don't claim to speak for Judaism in the sense and I and and I hope by the way, any rabbi who says they do, they are you know, they're very sus in my book. I spent far too long in Yeshiva, sort of the Jewish version of like a monastery. And one thing I learned is that the idea of Jewish authority is dispersed and and is intended to be the case. So in terms of authority, there's perspectives. There's a gravity of how people think about this stuff. ⁓ but there is not the answer. So I that's a big old disclaimer. So I'll just say that. The the main thing is from Judy from a Jewish perspective is that you know, there's always gonna be technologies, there always have been, and our greatest technology is our own humanity. And and the question becomes like, how do we figure out ⁓ how to hold on to that in the midst of the onslaught of the world and as it presents itself? And I would actually not limit us just the AI and you know technology. But I think it's about identities, it's about relationships, it's about politics. You know, there everything is sort of washing over us and impacting and questioning like where's my center of gravity? Where's my where do I find my humanity? How do I make decisions? How do I find the answers of things that are true to who I am? You could look at the world as being filled with distractions that are sort of always challenging that and in and sort of offering new inputs. But it's like, you know, in the end, the most Jewish perspective is. The answers are ultimately in yourself. And the Jewish perspective is how do I get in touch with myself? That is unavoidably a the starting point. If you don't do that, then it just becomes rules and edicts from certain religious traditions. And I don't think that's gonna be a satisfying path or answer. Let's talk about some of those rules. The main rule in Judaism is you have to be in relationship with people. If you don't find yourself in relationship with other humans, then you're actually not going to be able to manifest your own potential. We believe that our spirituality is wrapped up in being in relationships. That's critical. And that's that's something that like is not easy for people. Sometimes we don't relate to relationships as ways in which I can access my own understanding and deepen my own sense of self. Sometimes relationships, as we heard, can be transactional. Like I want certain things. I want my life to certain be a certain way. I need to find somebody who's gonna help me be to live that life, whether it be monetary, whether it be as status, career. live in a certain location, be Jewish, even like you're gonna help me be what I wanna be. And and I would argue Judaism sees relationships as much more ⁓ as excavation of yourself and revealing parts of yourself that you may that may not you may not know and you can't access unless you're in relation with somebody else. And so what comes out of that becomes the nature of the relationship. And that becomes a negotiation. One of the questions that came in earlier was about being in relationship with AI. Uh-huh. And so if humans have tested me along the way or held up inconvenient mirrors to my behavior or my thoughts or the way that I was loving myself or loving somebody else. What do you think it means if AI is holding up those same mirrors? If if it's about being in relationship. Can we be in relationship with AI? Yeah. I mean I I don't I wouldn't understand those questions and those kinds of reflections as being in relationship. I think those are part of the process of asking yourself the questions that are going to be important. And I think AI is an is incredibly helpful tool in doing that. But I don't think that's a relationship. I don't think you're in a relationship with AI when you do that. When we talk about r being in relationship from a from a Jewish perspective, it's an exchange where two people are learning from each other and and building with one another. And I don't think that's I don't think we're talking about, you know, inputting ⁓ information to an LM and deepening a machine's understanding of self. I don't think you're having a relationship with AI to get that kind those kinds of insights. Like I it just doesn't it doesn't cross that realm, you know. I think it's an incredibly advanced tool. That we probably are just seeing the beginnings of. ⁓ but I don't think that's a relationship. Someone just offered another comment to me. Relationship is reciprocal. AI isn't impacted in any way if I don't interact with it. But if I don't show up for my friends, family, loved ones, partner, and their life is impacted. And so to me, there is that calculation of like what does the AI need from us, which is theoretically zero. There's a Jewish concept that, like, when two people come together in relationship, and I don't mean only in marriage, collectively they become something else. Like not only themselves. Their own entity. It's a combined entity. You like form your own unique relationship, right? With a friend, a partner, or other that I think is ⁓ becomes independent of self, independent of each other, and and And turns into something else. It's a like I want to refer to as like a dynamic, it could be a relationship. Like how I don't I don't know how to how to think about that exactly, but there is this ideal of, you know, like the way we refer to it traditionally is you know, by two people coming together, they become Basar Akad, which means they become one person. Now, what that means is they're no longer they're no longer independent people, they're now something that's together, that is now different than what they were before they interact with each other. But are they independent people when they are independently operating? Like I recognize that my marriage is it's the beautiful word you just offered us. ⁓ but when like I'm having coffee with a friend, I'm not my marriage. You also simultaneously maintain your independence. It's not like you just convert yourself to this thing and then now we only exist in this bubble that we share. I think you're always moving in and out of that bubble in what moving relationship. One of the through lines that we wanted to explore in this episode is the ancient technology of honing one's intuition of About themselves in relationship with other people, which, as you've mentioned, is like what it means to be human according to your interpretation of text. But there are some like age-old questions that I really want to get to the bottom of. Like, how does Judaism define a marriage? And what is dating in love meant to look like? Yeah. Within the Jewish community. And then I'm gonna ask you like the most annoying of all questions that I feel like I had dating, getting close to being engaged to a Jewish man who's like 99.7% Ashkenazi. What are Jews relationship with this idea of marrying other Jewish people? There's a lot of different interpretations. And it goes according to, you know, different types of communities. I'll go back to, you know, something I said initially is that the role of marriage and the and the role of relationships is ultimately to give, learning how to give. Being in relationship is the ability for us to understand how do we give. It's likened to the relationship that ⁓ human beings are supposed to have with God. And we relate to God as God is a giver of life and a giver of things in this world. And we are receivers. And in marriage, you're supposed to achieve that balance. Like I'm supposed to be there for my wife to give to her. And also I'm supposed to be there to receive, receive her love, receive her or her empathy, receive, you know, who she is in this world. ⁓ and that's that is not that's easy to say, but it's actually really challenging. A lot of people are actually much more comfortable just receiving. And they actually sometimes have a hard time giving. And vice versa. Some people are like, I'm a giver. And those sometimes are the hardest people to receive. And by the way, it's not just receive from other people, receive from themselves. What what do I need? And a lot of people lose in a relationship, lose their voice of who am I and what do I need out of their and and then ask for what I need. So a Jewish marriage is supposed to be the the coupling of those two ideas. And that's a s that's that is ⁓ that's significantly challenging. ⁓ but that is what a manifestation of a mar a Jewish marriage is, as I understand it. ⁓ and if you can't achieve that, it creates real friction. ⁓ and ultimately I don't think it makes it very difficult for two people to actually be in relate in deep, sustained long-term relationship. So that that's a that's one basic idea around Jewish marriage, is that you have to be able to be in both of those places. and ⁓ be a receiver and a giver. And that's a nuanced balance that ⁓ I personally, you know, I personally work on all the time, you know, and I struggle with it. I mean I think I think most people probably do. I'm wondering where I am on those spectrums. I recognize that I also occupy both I feel like the hundred percent giver to my children. I am the receiver of bearing witness to their moments of joy and insight. Yeah. At this point in my life, I just want to be around people who know how to ask questions. Not know. And that was very much the through line in episode two of this podcast, which is like the level of humility and not knowing and the the the core tenet of being Jewish is to explore and debate and be curious and put that all on the page. Don't put the answers on the page in the same way that you put the questions. Yeah. But in a world with with such instant gratification, there isn't this exchange of like giving and getting and not being in the certainty and knowing. Yeah. Well that was the other thing I was going to say is that I think the other element I think in Jewish marriage, which I think is really critical, is that we are supposed to be changing. And we are supposed to be moving and we are supposed to be growing. And that can be really challenging in the context of a relationship because what I sign up for is like you is you. And then like and at the at the same time, I'm walking into that being like, and I'm committed to like your growth. I'm committed to you, who you are now, and who you might become, which you don't even know what that's gonna look like. Right. So there's like this that's where like the uncertainty and the mystery of relationships. I wrote a comment earlier. It's like, I think the biggest risk we make in our lives, biggest investment risk in our lives is marriage by far. It's like, it's crazy. Like I actually think it's kind of crazy. Like we're actually we're making a decision. I'm gonna, I'm gonna invest in you. ⁓ I'm gonna I know you're gonna be different. I need you to be different. Otherwise, you're not actually becoming like a full human being. I don't know what that difference is gonna look like, but I'm here for it. My wife and I are like, you know, at the stage where our kids are out of the house. And we're looking at each other and we're like, we're changing. And we're trying to do a good job being like, I'm curious what you're gonna become. And and she's saying, I'm curious what you're gonna become. And and there's like a and that's where that's a way of receiving. Like it requires a, you know, a certain like space that I have to create that scary. Like I it's not scary, like, ⁓ no, like it's just like it's definitely uncertain and ⁓ That's the nature of of of being in relationship with somebody else. And by the way, this is also a challenge for ourselves. Like I like I need to let myself be who I need to be. And I don't even know what that's gonna be. And and I ⁓ I have to create space for that. That's scary. Because that's because that's like like who the fuck am I? And like and and am I open to who I might become. And I'm gonna be and my gonna be gentle with myself if like suddenly that person that I become is not the path that I had designed for myself and am I gonna be generous with myself if I decide my life needs to look different. You can't avoid having your own homing device. Like who am I? And I need to be committed to that. That's gonna be the basis of the health I think for certainly our health of our relationship to ourselves or and definitely the relationship to our to other people. Do you think there's opportunities in the Jewish community in general to redefine marriage and partnership? And maybe this is radical. I think I think ⁓ it's hard to find things in the Jewish community that don't need to be revisited and reimagined to be updated for who we are today, the world, ⁓ how the world functions. Much of Jewish life and much of Jewish community for most people. It's not true for all people. For most people, has become performative, has become you know, at worst commercialized, you know, ⁓ and at best, you know, relegated to the realm of like just like traditions, things we do. But it it's what it's run the real risk and it's and I think it's it's manifest, and I think it's a it's it's showing itself now is that the the why behind these things. you know, has not really been centered. And I think that's why I that's why I'm into it. I mean, I if I didn't have that, ⁓ then I would be my relationship to being Jewish would be be super tenuous, which I think it is for a lot of people. I think people feel a sense of being proud of being Jewish, but like they're they they do struggle. Like, well, what like why but why do I want to get involved with this? Like, Jenna, you asked me that question. Like, why do we want to do this podcast? Like and and I remember the question you asked like, well, why does it matter? And I think the the fact that you're asking that question is exactly that. Like you're right. You're the default is well, it doesn't seem like it matters because I haven't really been shown a lot of things in my life that has exemplified that it does matter. Well, Yona, in our final question of your debut on this podcast, at the end of the day, do you think marriage is critical to a happy Jewish life? I don't know, the way the world's going, like marriage, I don't know if the institution of marriage I think it really depends on how you define it, you know, and define marriage. You know, so are we talking about a certificate from City Hall? You know, if that's where tax purposes, maybe. Yeah, I got yeah. I mean, I I think I think relationships and a and a deep and committed relationship and and it usually manifests as long term and not terminal, meaning like relate people change and it it doesn't I don't think The fact that people leave marriages means it's a failure at all. I think it's just actually like an evolution. ⁓ maybe people evolve together. ⁓ so I d I like, you know, I I question just like I would need to like interrogate the contours when you say marriage to make sure that we're talking the same thing. Well, I mean, I guess I could say on your behalf, if it's about being in relationship with other people so that we can be in relationship with ourselves, like you don't need you don't need the the document. From the city hall, like that is already I am in committed relationships with many people in my life. But like the traditional marriage under the hoop-a-right. I will say, I will say, yes, in that sense, yeah, I agree. I don't think that. But if my kids are listening, they better get married because I want to see. See, that's the kind of honesty and vulnerability I'm looking for in this show. Like I said, I'm picking my kids I just want to go to the chuppa. That's all like I just, you know, they may maybe need to quit just for me, but whatever it is, I want that. And and and you know, you'll if you're my kids, they'll be the first people to say, like, we're gonna do, we're gonna do. Yeah, thanks, Dad. Yeah. That's cute. Right. Yeah. Well, that's gonna be the marker that they've been raised well enough to be like, you had love, we'll placate you, but you're not in charge. ⁓ Yona, thank you so much for making space for this podcast. Thank you so much for your wise words. And we look forward to having you back soon. You can find everything you need to know about Common Era and the very exciting projects and questions that they are offering to the world ⁓ in the show notes. Yona, thanks so much. Thank you. We began by asking who might be best equipped to find us love: a matchmaker, a Jewish mother, an algorithm, or some mysterious force we call fate. But each conversation moved us deeper, from who selects the person to what we are actually selecting them for. Human matchmakers read timing, readiness, chemistry, and contradiction. Community gives love, context, pressure, and meaning. Algorithms can widen the field, but also narrow us to what can be measured. In Jewish tradition, it asks us to see partnership not as a perfect prediction, but as a practice of building a life. Perhaps love has never been something we simply find. It is something we recognize, risk, choose, and continue creating. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Command F. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. You can find a summary of this episode along with all the links and resources we discussed at blandavand.live. Follow the Land of Ann on Substack and YouTube and join our live community on Twitch. There's so much more to come. The ideas and opinions shared on this podcast belong solely to the host and guests. They reflect our thinking at the time of recording and may evolve as we continue to listen, learn, and encounter new information. They do not necessarily represent the views of any sponsor, partner, or affiliated organization. Command F is produced by the Land of Ande in partnership with Common Era. This series would not exist without DZ Kalman, whose questions helped inspire its inception, and whose voice has been essential to its intellectual and moral foundation. Our deepest thanks to Rabbi Joanna Schiller, Chief Research and Development Officer of Common Era, and Mikhail Humboldt, Christina Gilliutin for their partnership, trust, and support in bringing this work to life. Special thanks to our production team, senior creator producer and story editor Marn Marshe, Senior Livestream Producer Janice Matsko. And producer and editor Sara Jacobsen.