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Speaker 1: From School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. This is Cold Case Files Miami. I'm your host, Anddrique Santos this is Cold Case Files Miami. So part of our goal on this show is to have open conversations with professionals about what law enforcement or first responders deal with behind the scenes. Much of what we know or see of folks in this profession.
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Speaker 2: For media TV, and we want to humanize their experience.
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Speaker 1: As you know, I'm a reserve Miami police officer and the time I worked as a full time cop left me marked in more ways than one. I've seen the mental toll it can take and have experienced it firsthand. There's a lot of stigma around asking for help, and that's why I wanted to speak to my friend Michelle Ernandez.
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Speaker 2: Michelle Ernandez is a licensed mental.
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Speaker 1: Health counselor and psychotherapist who specializes in trauma. Started her own private practice after spending nearly a decade working with Christy House, an organization here in Miami that.
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Speaker 2: Treats children with severe trauma.
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Speaker 1: Today, her clients are of all ages, but she focuses on people suffering from PTSD, anxiety and grief. Michelle, welcome, Let's start with defining PTSD, how do you define it?
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Speaker 3: So, post traumatic stress disorder is something that happens after somebody experiences a traumatic event. Now this has evolved a little bit, right. It used to be that we used to think, well, it's this is from military that are coming back from service. But the reality is that so many people have experienced something that can be traumatic, from a sexual abuse to a physical abuse, you know, victims of crime. There's so many ways that someone can experience trauma. I've seen levels of PTSD even after COVID for some people it was that traumatic. So it's something that you know, you experience something that's really traumatic, you can't stop thinking about it. There's people that experience flashbacks, there's people that are triggered, they're right back in that moment. They can have trouble sleeping. It can impact their relationships, it can impact their health. There's research that shows that prolonged exposure two events that contribute to PTSD can actually shorten somebody's life. And so I've dedicated my life to kind of working with children in foster care, police fire, anybody that has experienced PTSD. It's very important to me. I think that quality of life is important, and I think it's important for people to understand that even though you've seen really terrible things or bad things, that there can be a quality of life and that you can overcome some of these things.
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Speaker 1: Talking about PTSD not only affecting life but shortening life. Many people dealing with PTSD unfortunately end up committing so side how much of that is a factor and how worried are you with this factor?
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Speaker 3: So it's interesting for the general population, the risk of suicide is about seven to twelve percent for people with PTSD. When you look at police and fire, those numbers are really high. In the state of Florida, there is the number is about twenty percent of suicide risk. The numbers are pretty high in Florida, and we're not the highest. I believe Montana, Alaska, and Wyoming have the highest incidents of suicide. I think that it falls on our agencies or community leaders. I know that it's difficult when we lose a first responsor, but I have to say that the past few months, it's happened a few times and the conversations have been refreshing. In my opinion, I think that the leaders of these agencies we have to have an open conversation. Why are we losing senior people? Why do they feel, after dedicating their life to their community that suicide is the answer? How much pain are they in and what are we missing? How can we help them?
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Speaker 1: So I think it's also important to remember that it's not just new recruits who might struggle with mental health issues right well, people starting their job, in the middle of their job, towards the end of their careers.
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Speaker 2: This also affects.
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Speaker 1: Veterans, like like like you're explaining, and this affects the family. How can we identify and deal with a loved one that's dealing with PTSD.
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Speaker 3: So I think open communication is always the important thing, right. I think it's it's lovely, and I think a lot of people think, oh, I married my hero. They're a first responder. And I feel like first responders oftentimes don't want to bring that burden home. My partner can't. I don't want to share that what I say today with them. I don't want to share that I saw a little child drown or that I wasn't able to save somebody from a gunshot wound, or that there was a terrible car accident. They want to kind of keep that to themselves and maybe share it with other first responders. So I think as a spouse of a first responder, or a partner, an intimate partner, or even just parents siblings, asking your person, are you okay? You don't have to give me the details of what you have experienced, but how are you doing? How are you coping? How can we support you? Right? I think also giving first responders a breather when they walk through the door. You know, oftentimes we want them to jump back in into family life. And I don't know what this person saw while they were on shift, so maybe they didn't need a minute to regroup, right, and then kind of jump back into too, whatever's happening in the household.
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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the stigma a little bit. There are there many studies, Yeah, and you've mentioned some numbers as well as that this takes high rates of mental health issues among police and first responder uh and much higher than the general public.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: Do you think law enforcement officers and first responders are encouraged internally within their police departments, within their circles to talk about these issues?
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Speaker 2: Is there enough support for them? Are we failing them?
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Speaker 3: I think I think we have to understand them. I think I'll speak to providers. So let's start with providers. So if you're a provider, and you and you're a mental health provider, you treat PTSD, it's imperative that you understand this subsection of our population. Right. You have to understand how police talk. You have to understand how firefighters talk, you their lingo, their language. It's also important to note that first responders, police and fire experience PTSD differently. A police a police officer can be very solitary. They're in their car, they might have somebody that's in their in their same district that they work with, right or somebody that they body up with. But firefighters go back to their fire station and they can kind of hash some of this stuff out. And so we have to understand that we're also everybody's first responders. But they're all so different. Just like dispatchers. Dispatchers are getting these raw calls and there's no filter. They're getting these raw calls. If somebody's screaming and yelling and they're trying to help this person. They're trying to relay that information to whoever's responding, and they experience BTSC differently. And so I think it's important to hold that space to support them. I can speak to Miami, I think culturally right for Hispanics and maybe for other minorities. The stigma of I'm not crazy. I don't need to talk to anybody. You don't need to be crazy. You've chosen a vocation that is admirable and it's beautiful, but it comes with a cost, right your own sense of being, your sense of mental health, becoming a little bit jaded about the world. And so I think it's important to have open spaces where people can talk about these things.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so talking about this with your buddies, with your peers on the force can be helpful. But some fear that if they take it to the next level and speak to an expert like you, and if what's shared is a little too dark, that might threaten their job, their career, and their families.
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Speaker 3: There's definitely a fear of are they going to take my gun? Are they going to take me off the fire truck? Am I going to be put on dust duty? If I share these concerns. In my opinion, I feel like we need providers that are very specialized and also that are not attached to the agency. So standalone, I don't have to answer to the fire department, I don't have to answer to the police department. I can hold this space for my client while also having those serious conversations of when do you need a break, should you still be working? Do you need a time out, but not having that fear of if I share too much, is this immediately going to be reported to my boss? And I think that that's helpful.
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Speaker 1: So what you're describing outside third party not your agency?
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Speaker 2: Are you describing union?
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Speaker 3: Uh? It could be the union. You know, every union works differently. I know, I think locally the PBA does a great job of connecting people with third parties. It's not necessarily something that's going to go right back to the police department. You know. I'm not talking about you were involved in a shooting and now they're doing an investigation the way that they do because you just start your firearm. That's normal, right, that has to be done. I'm talking about. This is not specific to one incident. This is a culmination of I just got on the forest and I don't know how to deal with this, or I've been on the force for ten years and I can't deal with it anymore. I need somebody where I can where I can kind of talk about these things. I do think we need third party people that are qualified, that are not necessarily linked back to the agencies. I spoke locally to do different people, one with the fire department, one with a county police who told me that when people are in the academy, they kind of brush over the topic of PTSD. Now imagine you have recruits that are put through these academies, right, which are intense physically, emotionally, and so I wonder how much of them are filtering that. I do think that there are. There's some grants in motion at this time, and what they want to do is follow This is specific to the fire department. They want to follow people. You just got on board, all right, So let's have a conversation in six months, in a year and see how you're adjusting. I loved that idea. I think it's fantastic of telling people this is not you're going to see a therapist once. This is throughout your career. Let's do some check ins, right, Let's do a wellness check and see how you doing mentally. Have you even asked yourself how am I doing mentally because some of us don't do that, We don't even check in with ourselves.
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Speaker 2: Let's talk about that a little bit.
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Speaker 1: Do you think that separation between work and home life is important to maintain? And how do you how can first responders that are listening right now, what would you say to them that they're looking for that, for that healthy balance.
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Speaker 3: So I believe that work life balance is extremely important when we're looking at first responders. How do we help them do that? When they drove by a particular corner and they can remember an accident that was on that corner, they can remember where they arrested someone. Some people don't live where they police, but a lot of people do. And you know if you do, if you choose to live in the same city where you're policing, you do have to kind of be be mindful of that. Are these triggers? Oh I remember where I responded to a call of a pool and a little kid drowned, that it was right on the street, And so understanding that these are to be triggers, and how to prepare for that? Meaning, how do you talk about that? And how do you understand that this number one, this is a vocation so processing a lot of your guilt. The reality is you're not going to save everybody. The reality is, in the beginning of your career, you might make mistakes that I don't want to say, cast somebody their life. But but that can change the outcome of something, right. That's just the process of learning and so letting go of that guilt and of that of that feeling of why didn't I say this person? Why didn't I? You know, let's focus on other people you have helped, and I think shifting that perspective a little bit of Wow, how much good have I done in the world versus all the bad things that I've been exposed to. It sounds simplistic, but I think it can be helpful.
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Speaker 2: Do you see this as a two way street?
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Speaker 1: In other words, first responder are there to protect, serve, help, But should the general public also understand, have some empathy, have some sympathy for what our first responders and the positions that they are being placed in and the decisions that they have to make under so much pressure. What would you say to the general public? How can they better understand our first responders?
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Speaker 3: So I highly recommend for anyone to do a ride along that's my personal opinion. I did one many years ago and it was eye opening.
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Speaker 2: Explain the right along so those that don't know what that is.
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Speaker 3: So a ride along is you know, you fill out some paperwork and you go to your local police department. You can choose whatever municipality you do it in. I did it in Hialiyah. It was fascinating, great police department, absolutely and it was it was you know, you have to sign this paperwork, you sit down, you can't get out of the car when the police officer gets out of the car. You're just there to observe. You're not there to interfere. But it was interesting. You know, when they pull over a car, my adrenaline was going a little bit like what are they walking up on? Yeah, this person took us oop sign, But do they have a weapon in the car? You know, is there somebody that's been kidnapped in the car. I don't know, I don't know. Is this person going to be friendly? Are they going to be apologetic? Are they going to be aggressive? And so these are all things that police are in their minds. It's going going going there, adrenaline is up, their nervous system is constantly going and so I think it's important for the public to also understand, you know, what our police go through. But I will say I truly believe City of Miami does a beautiful job of community policing. They engage their communities, They're out there the resources talking to people. So I think a big part of this is educating our communities and understanding. You know, a lot of people live in a municipality and they don't even realize they have two commissioners and two mayors, right, and that they have a police department. Depending on what it is, might be your city, if it's bigger, it might get bounced to county. It kind of depends on what the crime is. Right. Definitely understanding all these nuances and all these things that police have to understand. The same with fire departments. You know, oh, well they came and they broke all the windows. Understanding that, you know, the fire department their job is to protect life. They want to protect your property as well, but if they have to make a choice, it's going to be your life. And so understanding some of the procedures of why they do the things that they do.
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Speaker 1: You mentioned the Miami Police Department and the leadership by police chief. Current police chief Many Morales, who leads with integrity, accountability, and a strong focus on community. He's done a fantastic job with community outreach, specifically with the religious community and local Hispanic Latino Spanish speaking community, but with the black community as well. There's very close ties there and he has personally told me that since he came into the office, it was important to understand that community and for the community to understand the police department and their challenges and have a direct line. And I think that's very important for police departments to have that rapport with the people that they that they serve.
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Speaker 3: I think, you know, our first response just can traumatize as well if there's not good police work, if we don't acknowledge the things that okay, we apologize that that's the way that something was handled in the past. You know. I have a friend who's who for many years was on the swat team, you know, and he said, they thought that person fit the description, and you know, eventually they realized that that was not the case. There was illegal activity coming out of that house, but it wasn't this particular person. And he actually apologized to that person and sat down and had a conversation and learned the communities that they're policing. I think it's easy for the community to say, oh, the police just comes in here and tears everything up. And I think it's easy for police to say, oh, this particular community is always a problem. And I think we need to get away from generalizing that, right because and every kind of profession and every kind of department. Yeah, of course we're humans, right, So there are always people that don't have good intentions. Are there bad seeds only in one community, No, there's good people everywhere. So I think opening those lines of communication is also really important. We don't want our children to fear the police. We want our kids to if if somebody touches you inappropriately, if something's happening at school, you know, I teach kids that that's a trusted adult. And so I think the police also has to understand kind of that responsibility that they have to uphold that uniform.
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Speaker 1: And with that said, going back to the two way street and knowing your police department and the police department knowing the community, it's also would you say the responsibility of the community to hold their elected officials accountable their police departments accountable, not just when there's bad times, but they should have a healthy and ongoing conversation. They should know who their leaders are. It's about accountability as well, not just when there's crisis.
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Speaker 3: Right, there should be a thank you.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 3: I say this often, and I don't see it in a kind of a nonchalant way. I really mean it. I sleep very well. I have a seven year old, and I sleep very well at night knowing that if something goes wrong, if we have a medical emergency, we can call people and they're going to respond. And I think, you know, someone might say, well, you've never had a negative experience with the police. I mean I did pulled over and kind of had an experience with somebody that wasn't that pleasant, but you kind of take it with a grain of salt. I don't know what that person was dealing with that day, right. The other part of that is taking responsibility for my actions. What did I do that got myself pulled over? Right? So I think we all have to take responsibility for what we're doing. It doesn't mean that you're a terrible person. Anyone can be distracted in a moment and go oh, I didn't realize I was going a little bit over the speed limit, okay, but just being cordial to each other. It is a two way street. And understanding to be cordial and respectful to each other. And again understanding what are the what are the things that are impacting my community that I'm policing, and what is my responsibility as as a person, as a member of this community to understand what my police is dealing with? Right? I think that's important.
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Speaker 1: On the other hand, there's people probably listening that think otherwise, that think, I pay my taxes, this is not my problem. The police department needs to investigate. I need answers. Why haven't they solved this crime? What would you tell that person?
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Speaker 3: So I would tell them what are we talking about? Are we talking about a home invasion? Are we talking about a murder? Are we talking about somebody took your garbage can from your front yard? Like I you know, I'm not saying that these things are not important. When it's your property and it's your stuff, it's important to you. But also again that's part of being of community and understanding you know, this really and the scale of life. This really isn't a big deal. You know, why am I calling the police department. You know, I think this is a really big issue when you talk about people who are calling the police department because somebody's suffering a mental health crisis. Right, And so we've had instances where police are called and that person ends up dead because that person was being aggressive or they didn't know. And then we have that are upset but I called for them to help. It's a very it's a very complex issue.
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Speaker 1: It is what would you tell somebody that does have somebody that's suffering from PTSD or has another mental health issue that has now turned violent?
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Speaker 2: Should they call a police?
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Speaker 3: Ah, that's kind of a loaded question in Tickese. So we should call police if you need a Baker act. But I think that that the police can't be the last resort. I feel like the police has become the people that we call for everything. And the reality is that some police officers are trained, but they're not all trained in mental health or crisis. We're very lucky in Miami Dade County. We do have now some specialized units that go out when they know it's a mental health call. But if you're in the parking lot somewhere and somebody's being aggressive, you don't know that that person is having a psychotic break because you're not a mental health provider, right, so you I can kind of tell I'm like, oh, oh, I think this is not what it looks like. This might be somebody happy being a mental health crisis, but somebody's going to call the police because they're scared. And so I think understanding maybe for those family members, how can we get better treatment? You know, how can we get better treatment for these individuals? And understanding the role of police. Police are not mental health providers. If you call the police, you may have an outcome that you don't want to have, right, So how do we kind of get around that? And that's where the hard question is, because if you need this person hospitalized, you may contact the police. So I think maybe giving better information to the dispatcher. Listen, I'm calling because we're concerned, right, but this person does have mental health issues, and I think maybe frontloading some of that information for the officer, maybe that could be a better way to handle that situation. Versus, Oh, my brother has a knife and we're trying to calm him down and we can't see. That's a different call, right Versus, Hey, I'm calling you because My brother struggles with bipolar disorder. He's a little bit out of control right now. I don't think he's gonna hurt us, but I don't know who else to call. That's a different call for that dispatcher and how those officers may approach that call. So you know, again this all boils down to education. How do how do we educate police and how do we educate communities? And again, so what does that come down to? Education about mental health which is now in our faces whether we like it or not. It used to be a thing that people hit away, right They would send their family members who were sick to a mental hospital, or they would send them away to a special place. Well, we don't do that anymore. We don't hide people that have mental health issues, right, And so we all have to learn how to how to kind of live together or work together for the better men of everyone.
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Speaker 1: Would you say, then, then the more we talk about it, the better the situation is, because it's not an easy answer, to your point, and knowing that someone that's unstable mentally can fly off the handle at any given moment, and police, to your point as well, arrive on a scene and they're dealing with some unknown person and they have to escalate or de escalate that, and that that situation very very quickly, and family members know better the history behind what's going on with that person, if you know, IF's bipolar disorder, if it's somebody that's medicated and it's off their their medication. So does that responsibility fall more on the family and is that something they should handle more on their doctor level with their loved one.
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Speaker 3: I think they should handle it on their on their treatment level, obviously with physicians and things like this, But I think also, you know, I'm just kind of thinking out loud and speaking with you, but what if you go by the police station and say, hey, we live at this particular address and we might call you sometimes because we have somebody that lives with us that has some mental health issues. Again, that's a perfect world, right because it's not like they're going to relay that to everybody on shift. But maybe getting to know the officers that you know patrol your area and again that that's also part of that community policing. Hey, we let somebody lives in that cornerhouse and they have good days and bad days, and on bad days, this is how we address that. Now, that might be a little more challenging in a metropolitan area like ours, but it's not impossible because when you're on shift, you're in your particular district, your zone, and so you get to know your people. You know who's the troublemakers, you know who's the helpers. You get to know all these things.
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Speaker 1: To your point, and you had mentioned the Hialea Police Department in South Florida, they the hialia A Police Department has us implemented an autism Awareness decal program for homes and vehicles to alert for responders about individuals with autism. And this helps, to your point, officers respond appropriately based on specialized training. They know that when they're arriving at that house, the dispatcher is able to tell them if that resident has registered with the police department, that there's an autistic person, for example, living in that home, so that the officers know that if someone's not responding to their verbal commands or is acting in an odd way or different way just not responding to them, they will know why. So maybe this is a great way. They might be nonverbal, and there's a lot of people on the autism spectrum that are nonverbal. So to your point, this could be helpful. And a lot of police departments, like the Miami Police Department, have certain households that are registered where there's people that have openly threatened police officers, threatened to kill police officers. So responding officers, if they're going to that address, the dispatcher is able to relay that information for officer safety, to let them know, Hey, there's an individual that lives at that residence that's named like this and this is their date of birth, and they've made open threats to kill police officers, so the officers are better prepared to handle that situation.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's lovely and I think understanding, right, these are our needs in our households, and I want to keep my person safe and I want to keep the police safe. I don't want this to have a terrible outcome, right, you know. And part of that is just mental health, some diagnosis. The behaviors can be a little bit unpredictable. People take their medicine, then they stop taking their medicine when they feel better or they're having a psychotic break and they just completely stop taking medicine. They mix their medicine. If you have co occurring where they have substance abuse issues as well. So, yeah, there's a lot of things. You know, it's not like the police gets a chart, right and you know what this person is dealing with. You're kind of called in that moment. Tensions are already high in this household, and now we're adding police to this. And so I like that idea of maybe a decal or of getting to know getting to know your officers, you know the other side of that and thin Gas, we can't shy away from the issues that we're having now with I hear this a lot with clients, and it's a topic of conversation that we have to kind of approach, which is, you know what if I call the police and I have immigration issues, now, what's going to happen? So I think some of this leads to a lot of the miscommunication with police. I think it leads to more mental health issues of people who are depressed, anxious, feeling desperate, you know. And I think that a lot is being asked of our police departments to enforce all kinds of things, which I understand, but we can't make pretend that these things happen in a vacuum, right, there's consequences to all of it.
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Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of studies that show a much higher rate of intimate partner violence among police. Can you talk about how that might connect to officer mental health?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. So it's a high stress job. There's a lot going on, and unfortunately, sometimes that can lead to coming home and just having poor communication with an intimate partner. It can lead to domestic violence, it can lead to all kinds of different things. And so then the person in that relationship, it's twofold, right because who am I going to call the police on the police officer? That's that can get tricky. It's so important again to have open communication, to seek out therapy. But we know that officers are exposed to complex trauma every day. That's why the treatment has to be different because what they're you know, what I can do with someone who's experienced one traumatic event, We can process that one event. I can't process with a police officer or firefighter every day because every day they're exposed to trauma. And so just not finding a way to not bring that home to your spouse. And I don't want anyone to misunderstand me and think that I'm victim blaming, but also I think for spouses to fully understand what their partner is exposed to and knowing to kind of read those signs of I think this person had a bad day today. That's never an excuse for domestic violence or for putting your hands on someone. But I do think that you have to understand your partner, understand their triggers, and they need to understand yours. You know, when you come home and you don't speak to me because you saw a lot of bad things today, I take that as neglect or is that you're upset with me? That erodes trust in the police. If we have now police officers engaging in domestic violence, now we have other issues and that's and that's not helpful either.
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Speaker 2: Michelle.
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Speaker 1: What are some of the available resources, both locally here in Miami but also nationally.
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Speaker 3: So people can call the National Center for PTSD. They also have a great website that has tons of information. They can call NAMI, which is the National Alliance on Mental Illness. And then with your local department if you choose to go through your department, you can go through the employee Assistance program, you can go through your union. There's you know, various unions, the local for the fire Department, the PBA, the FLP, like there's there's several places where you can go and ask for help. You can always call the Suicide Crisis Hotline if you're at that point, right and you can always receive help. There's always help, And I think the most important thing for first responders to understand is that there is a therapist suited for you. And it's important to ask for help because you always respond to the call for help, but it's okay to also ask.
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Speaker 2: For help, and it's so important.
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Speaker 1: The National Suicide Hotline, if you need to talk, the nine eight eight lifeline is there for you in both English and in Spanish. You can text nine eight eight, or you can simply pick up your phone and down nine eight eight and thinkay.
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Speaker 3: There's also a great local organization if you want to reach out to Bleeding Blue. They do a fantastic job of linking officers with any kind of therapist peer support, and they've done a really beautiful job of doing that locally.
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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for coming on the show, Michelle here. Your work is really powerful and necessary. Thank you, thank you. If you have information to share on any cold case please caller send in a tip with your local crime stoppers or law enforcement department in Miami. That number is three zero five four to seven to one tips. That's three zero five four seven one eight four seven seven. You can also visit Crimestoppers three zero five dot com and select give a tip Cold Case Files Miami. As a production of Iheart'smichael Duda podcast Network and School of Humans, I'm your host Imbriqua Santos.
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Speaker 2: This show is.
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Speaker 1: Written and researched by Marissa Brown. Our lead producer is Josh thing Eedeli Spees is our senior producer. Sound design and mix by Josh Thain, fact checking by Savannah Hugley.
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Speaker 2: Our production manager is Daisy Church.
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Speaker 1: Executive producers include me Mbriquessantos, Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley from School of Humans. For more podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: From School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. This is Cold Case Files Miami. I'm your host, Anddrique Santos this is Cold Case Files Miami. So part of our goal on this show is to have open conversations with professionals about what law enforcement or first responders deal with behind the scenes. Much of what we know or see of folks in this profession.
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Speaker 2: For media TV, and we want to humanize their experience.
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Speaker 1: As you know, I'm a reserve Miami police officer and the time I worked as a full time cop left me marked in more ways than one. I've seen the mental toll it can take and have experienced it firsthand. There's a lot of stigma around asking for help, and that's why I wanted to speak to my friend Michelle Ernandez.
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Speaker 2: Michelle Ernandez is a licensed mental.
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Speaker 1: Health counselor and psychotherapist who specializes in trauma. Started her own private practice after spending nearly a decade working with Christy House, an organization here in Miami that.
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Speaker 2: Treats children with severe trauma.
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Speaker 1: Today, her clients are of all ages, but she focuses on people suffering from PTSD, anxiety and grief. Michelle, welcome, Let's start with defining PTSD, how do you define it?
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Speaker 3: So, post traumatic stress disorder is something that happens after somebody experiences a traumatic event. Now this has evolved a little bit, right. It used to be that we used to think, well, it's this is from military that are coming back from service. But the reality is that so many people have experienced something that can be traumatic, from a sexual abuse to a physical abuse, you know, victims of crime. There's so many ways that someone can experience trauma. I've seen levels of PTSD even after COVID for some people it was that traumatic. So it's something that you know, you experience something that's really traumatic, you can't stop thinking about it. There's people that experience flashbacks, there's people that are triggered, they're right back in that moment. They can have trouble sleeping. It can impact their relationships, it can impact their health. There's research that shows that prolonged exposure two events that contribute to PTSD can actually shorten somebody's life. And so I've dedicated my life to kind of working with children in foster care, police fire, anybody that has experienced PTSD. It's very important to me. I think that quality of life is important, and I think it's important for people to understand that even though you've seen really terrible things or bad things, that there can be a quality of life and that you can overcome some of these things.
00:02:50
Speaker 1: Talking about PTSD not only affecting life but shortening life. Many people dealing with PTSD unfortunately end up committing so side how much of that is a factor and how worried are you with this factor?
00:03:06
Speaker 3: So it's interesting for the general population, the risk of suicide is about seven to twelve percent for people with PTSD. When you look at police and fire, those numbers are really high. In the state of Florida, there is the number is about twenty percent of suicide risk. The numbers are pretty high in Florida, and we're not the highest. I believe Montana, Alaska, and Wyoming have the highest incidents of suicide. I think that it falls on our agencies or community leaders. I know that it's difficult when we lose a first responsor, but I have to say that the past few months, it's happened a few times and the conversations have been refreshing. In my opinion, I think that the leaders of these agencies we have to have an open conversation. Why are we losing senior people? Why do they feel, after dedicating their life to their community that suicide is the answer? How much pain are they in and what are we missing? How can we help them?
00:04:15
Speaker 1: So I think it's also important to remember that it's not just new recruits who might struggle with mental health issues right well, people starting their job, in the middle of their job, towards the end of their careers.
00:04:25
Speaker 2: This also affects.
00:04:26
Speaker 1: Veterans, like like like you're explaining, and this affects the family. How can we identify and deal with a loved one that's dealing with PTSD.
00:04:39
Speaker 3: So I think open communication is always the important thing, right. I think it's it's lovely, and I think a lot of people think, oh, I married my hero. They're a first responder. And I feel like first responders oftentimes don't want to bring that burden home. My partner can't. I don't want to share that what I say today with them. I don't want to share that I saw a little child drown or that I wasn't able to save somebody from a gunshot wound, or that there was a terrible car accident. They want to kind of keep that to themselves and maybe share it with other first responders. So I think as a spouse of a first responder, or a partner, an intimate partner, or even just parents siblings, asking your person, are you okay? You don't have to give me the details of what you have experienced, but how are you doing? How are you coping? How can we support you? Right? I think also giving first responders a breather when they walk through the door. You know, oftentimes we want them to jump back in into family life. And I don't know what this person saw while they were on shift, so maybe they didn't need a minute to regroup, right, and then kind of jump back into too, whatever's happening in the household.
00:05:54
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the stigma a little bit. There are there many studies, Yeah, and you've mentioned some numbers as well as that this takes high rates of mental health issues among police and first responder uh and much higher than the general public.
00:06:06
Speaker 2: Right.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: Do you think law enforcement officers and first responders are encouraged internally within their police departments, within their circles to talk about these issues?
00:06:14
Speaker 2: Is there enough support for them? Are we failing them?
00:06:17
Speaker 3: I think I think we have to understand them. I think I'll speak to providers. So let's start with providers. So if you're a provider, and you and you're a mental health provider, you treat PTSD, it's imperative that you understand this subsection of our population. Right. You have to understand how police talk. You have to understand how firefighters talk, you their lingo, their language. It's also important to note that first responders, police and fire experience PTSD differently. A police a police officer can be very solitary. They're in their car, they might have somebody that's in their in their same district that they work with, right or somebody that they body up with. But firefighters go back to their fire station and they can kind of hash some of this stuff out. And so we have to understand that we're also everybody's first responders. But they're all so different. Just like dispatchers. Dispatchers are getting these raw calls and there's no filter. They're getting these raw calls. If somebody's screaming and yelling and they're trying to help this person. They're trying to relay that information to whoever's responding, and they experience BTSC differently. And so I think it's important to hold that space to support them. I can speak to Miami, I think culturally right for Hispanics and maybe for other minorities. The stigma of I'm not crazy. I don't need to talk to anybody. You don't need to be crazy. You've chosen a vocation that is admirable and it's beautiful, but it comes with a cost, right your own sense of being, your sense of mental health, becoming a little bit jaded about the world. And so I think it's important to have open spaces where people can talk about these things.
00:08:03
Speaker 1: Okay, so talking about this with your buddies, with your peers on the force can be helpful. But some fear that if they take it to the next level and speak to an expert like you, and if what's shared is a little too dark, that might threaten their job, their career, and their families.
00:08:23
Speaker 3: There's definitely a fear of are they going to take my gun? Are they going to take me off the fire truck? Am I going to be put on dust duty? If I share these concerns. In my opinion, I feel like we need providers that are very specialized and also that are not attached to the agency. So standalone, I don't have to answer to the fire department, I don't have to answer to the police department. I can hold this space for my client while also having those serious conversations of when do you need a break, should you still be working? Do you need a time out, but not having that fear of if I share too much, is this immediately going to be reported to my boss? And I think that that's helpful.
00:09:09
Speaker 1: So what you're describing outside third party not your agency?
00:09:13
Speaker 2: Are you describing union?
00:09:15
Speaker 3: Uh? It could be the union. You know, every union works differently. I know, I think locally the PBA does a great job of connecting people with third parties. It's not necessarily something that's going to go right back to the police department. You know. I'm not talking about you were involved in a shooting and now they're doing an investigation the way that they do because you just start your firearm. That's normal, right, that has to be done. I'm talking about. This is not specific to one incident. This is a culmination of I just got on the forest and I don't know how to deal with this, or I've been on the force for ten years and I can't deal with it anymore. I need somebody where I can where I can kind of talk about these things. I do think we need third party people that are qualified, that are not necessarily linked back to the agencies. I spoke locally to do different people, one with the fire department, one with a county police who told me that when people are in the academy, they kind of brush over the topic of PTSD. Now imagine you have recruits that are put through these academies, right, which are intense physically, emotionally, and so I wonder how much of them are filtering that. I do think that there are. There's some grants in motion at this time, and what they want to do is follow This is specific to the fire department. They want to follow people. You just got on board, all right, So let's have a conversation in six months, in a year and see how you're adjusting. I loved that idea. I think it's fantastic of telling people this is not you're going to see a therapist once. This is throughout your career. Let's do some check ins, right, Let's do a wellness check and see how you doing mentally. Have you even asked yourself how am I doing mentally because some of us don't do that, We don't even check in with ourselves.
00:11:04
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that a little bit.
00:11:05
Speaker 1: Do you think that separation between work and home life is important to maintain? And how do you how can first responders that are listening right now, what would you say to them that they're looking for that, for that healthy balance.
00:11:18
Speaker 3: So I believe that work life balance is extremely important when we're looking at first responders. How do we help them do that? When they drove by a particular corner and they can remember an accident that was on that corner, they can remember where they arrested someone. Some people don't live where they police, but a lot of people do. And you know if you do, if you choose to live in the same city where you're policing, you do have to kind of be be mindful of that. Are these triggers? Oh I remember where I responded to a call of a pool and a little kid drowned, that it was right on the street, And so understanding that these are to be triggers, and how to prepare for that? Meaning, how do you talk about that? And how do you understand that this number one, this is a vocation so processing a lot of your guilt. The reality is you're not going to save everybody. The reality is, in the beginning of your career, you might make mistakes that I don't want to say, cast somebody their life. But but that can change the outcome of something, right. That's just the process of learning and so letting go of that guilt and of that of that feeling of why didn't I say this person? Why didn't I? You know, let's focus on other people you have helped, and I think shifting that perspective a little bit of Wow, how much good have I done in the world versus all the bad things that I've been exposed to. It sounds simplistic, but I think it can be helpful.
00:12:56
Speaker 2: Do you see this as a two way street?
00:12:58
Speaker 1: In other words, first responder are there to protect, serve, help, But should the general public also understand, have some empathy, have some sympathy for what our first responders and the positions that they are being placed in and the decisions that they have to make under so much pressure. What would you say to the general public? How can they better understand our first responders?
00:13:22
Speaker 3: So I highly recommend for anyone to do a ride along that's my personal opinion. I did one many years ago and it was eye opening.
00:13:32
Speaker 2: Explain the right along so those that don't know what that is.
00:13:35
Speaker 3: So a ride along is you know, you fill out some paperwork and you go to your local police department. You can choose whatever municipality you do it in. I did it in Hialiyah. It was fascinating, great police department, absolutely and it was it was you know, you have to sign this paperwork, you sit down, you can't get out of the car when the police officer gets out of the car. You're just there to observe. You're not there to interfere. But it was interesting. You know, when they pull over a car, my adrenaline was going a little bit like what are they walking up on? Yeah, this person took us oop sign, But do they have a weapon in the car? You know, is there somebody that's been kidnapped in the car. I don't know, I don't know. Is this person going to be friendly? Are they going to be apologetic? Are they going to be aggressive? And so these are all things that police are in their minds. It's going going going there, adrenaline is up, their nervous system is constantly going and so I think it's important for the public to also understand, you know, what our police go through. But I will say I truly believe City of Miami does a beautiful job of community policing. They engage their communities, They're out there the resources talking to people. So I think a big part of this is educating our communities and understanding. You know, a lot of people live in a municipality and they don't even realize they have two commissioners and two mayors, right, and that they have a police department. Depending on what it is, might be your city, if it's bigger, it might get bounced to county. It kind of depends on what the crime is. Right. Definitely understanding all these nuances and all these things that police have to understand. The same with fire departments. You know, oh, well they came and they broke all the windows. Understanding that, you know, the fire department their job is to protect life. They want to protect your property as well, but if they have to make a choice, it's going to be your life. And so understanding some of the procedures of why they do the things that they do.
00:15:40
Speaker 1: You mentioned the Miami Police Department and the leadership by police chief. Current police chief Many Morales, who leads with integrity, accountability, and a strong focus on community. He's done a fantastic job with community outreach, specifically with the religious community and local Hispanic Latino Spanish speaking community, but with the black community as well. There's very close ties there and he has personally told me that since he came into the office, it was important to understand that community and for the community to understand the police department and their challenges and have a direct line. And I think that's very important for police departments to have that rapport with the people that they that they serve.
00:16:25
Speaker 3: I think, you know, our first response just can traumatize as well if there's not good police work, if we don't acknowledge the things that okay, we apologize that that's the way that something was handled in the past. You know. I have a friend who's who for many years was on the swat team, you know, and he said, they thought that person fit the description, and you know, eventually they realized that that was not the case. There was illegal activity coming out of that house, but it wasn't this particular person. And he actually apologized to that person and sat down and had a conversation and learned the communities that they're policing. I think it's easy for the community to say, oh, the police just comes in here and tears everything up. And I think it's easy for police to say, oh, this particular community is always a problem. And I think we need to get away from generalizing that, right because and every kind of profession and every kind of department. Yeah, of course we're humans, right, So there are always people that don't have good intentions. Are there bad seeds only in one community, No, there's good people everywhere. So I think opening those lines of communication is also really important. We don't want our children to fear the police. We want our kids to if if somebody touches you inappropriately, if something's happening at school, you know, I teach kids that that's a trusted adult. And so I think the police also has to understand kind of that responsibility that they have to uphold that uniform.
00:17:56
Speaker 1: And with that said, going back to the two way street and knowing your police department and the police department knowing the community, it's also would you say the responsibility of the community to hold their elected officials accountable their police departments accountable, not just when there's bad times, but they should have a healthy and ongoing conversation. They should know who their leaders are. It's about accountability as well, not just when there's crisis.
00:18:27
Speaker 3: Right, there should be a thank you.
00:18:30
Speaker 1: You know.
00:18:31
Speaker 3: I say this often, and I don't see it in a kind of a nonchalant way. I really mean it. I sleep very well. I have a seven year old, and I sleep very well at night knowing that if something goes wrong, if we have a medical emergency, we can call people and they're going to respond. And I think, you know, someone might say, well, you've never had a negative experience with the police. I mean I did pulled over and kind of had an experience with somebody that wasn't that pleasant, but you kind of take it with a grain of salt. I don't know what that person was dealing with that day, right. The other part of that is taking responsibility for my actions. What did I do that got myself pulled over? Right? So I think we all have to take responsibility for what we're doing. It doesn't mean that you're a terrible person. Anyone can be distracted in a moment and go oh, I didn't realize I was going a little bit over the speed limit, okay, but just being cordial to each other. It is a two way street. And understanding to be cordial and respectful to each other. And again understanding what are the what are the things that are impacting my community that I'm policing, and what is my responsibility as as a person, as a member of this community to understand what my police is dealing with? Right? I think that's important.
00:19:50
Speaker 1: On the other hand, there's people probably listening that think otherwise, that think, I pay my taxes, this is not my problem. The police department needs to investigate. I need answers. Why haven't they solved this crime? What would you tell that person?
00:20:07
Speaker 3: So I would tell them what are we talking about? Are we talking about a home invasion? Are we talking about a murder? Are we talking about somebody took your garbage can from your front yard? Like I you know, I'm not saying that these things are not important. When it's your property and it's your stuff, it's important to you. But also again that's part of being of community and understanding you know, this really and the scale of life. This really isn't a big deal. You know, why am I calling the police department. You know, I think this is a really big issue when you talk about people who are calling the police department because somebody's suffering a mental health crisis. Right, And so we've had instances where police are called and that person ends up dead because that person was being aggressive or they didn't know. And then we have that are upset but I called for them to help. It's a very it's a very complex issue.
00:21:07
Speaker 1: It is what would you tell somebody that does have somebody that's suffering from PTSD or has another mental health issue that has now turned violent?
00:21:15
Speaker 2: Should they call a police?
00:21:19
Speaker 3: Ah, that's kind of a loaded question in Tickese. So we should call police if you need a Baker act. But I think that that the police can't be the last resort. I feel like the police has become the people that we call for everything. And the reality is that some police officers are trained, but they're not all trained in mental health or crisis. We're very lucky in Miami Dade County. We do have now some specialized units that go out when they know it's a mental health call. But if you're in the parking lot somewhere and somebody's being aggressive, you don't know that that person is having a psychotic break because you're not a mental health provider, right, so you I can kind of tell I'm like, oh, oh, I think this is not what it looks like. This might be somebody happy being a mental health crisis, but somebody's going to call the police because they're scared. And so I think understanding maybe for those family members, how can we get better treatment? You know, how can we get better treatment for these individuals? And understanding the role of police. Police are not mental health providers. If you call the police, you may have an outcome that you don't want to have, right, So how do we kind of get around that? And that's where the hard question is, because if you need this person hospitalized, you may contact the police. So I think maybe giving better information to the dispatcher. Listen, I'm calling because we're concerned, right, but this person does have mental health issues, and I think maybe frontloading some of that information for the officer, maybe that could be a better way to handle that situation. Versus, Oh, my brother has a knife and we're trying to calm him down and we can't see. That's a different call, right Versus, Hey, I'm calling you because My brother struggles with bipolar disorder. He's a little bit out of control right now. I don't think he's gonna hurt us, but I don't know who else to call. That's a different call for that dispatcher and how those officers may approach that call. So you know, again this all boils down to education. How do how do we educate police and how do we educate communities? And again, so what does that come down to? Education about mental health which is now in our faces whether we like it or not. It used to be a thing that people hit away, right They would send their family members who were sick to a mental hospital, or they would send them away to a special place. Well, we don't do that anymore. We don't hide people that have mental health issues, right, And so we all have to learn how to how to kind of live together or work together for the better men of everyone.
00:23:47
Speaker 1: Would you say, then, then the more we talk about it, the better the situation is, because it's not an easy answer, to your point, and knowing that someone that's unstable mentally can fly off the handle at any given moment, and police, to your point as well, arrive on a scene and they're dealing with some unknown person and they have to escalate or de escalate that, and that that situation very very quickly, and family members know better the history behind what's going on with that person, if you know, IF's bipolar disorder, if it's somebody that's medicated and it's off their their medication. So does that responsibility fall more on the family and is that something they should handle more on their doctor level with their loved one.
00:24:26
Speaker 3: I think they should handle it on their on their treatment level, obviously with physicians and things like this, But I think also, you know, I'm just kind of thinking out loud and speaking with you, but what if you go by the police station and say, hey, we live at this particular address and we might call you sometimes because we have somebody that lives with us that has some mental health issues. Again, that's a perfect world, right because it's not like they're going to relay that to everybody on shift. But maybe getting to know the officers that you know patrol your area and again that that's also part of that community policing. Hey, we let somebody lives in that cornerhouse and they have good days and bad days, and on bad days, this is how we address that. Now, that might be a little more challenging in a metropolitan area like ours, but it's not impossible because when you're on shift, you're in your particular district, your zone, and so you get to know your people. You know who's the troublemakers, you know who's the helpers. You get to know all these things.
00:25:23
Speaker 1: To your point, and you had mentioned the Hialea Police Department in South Florida, they the hialia A Police Department has us implemented an autism Awareness decal program for homes and vehicles to alert for responders about individuals with autism. And this helps, to your point, officers respond appropriately based on specialized training. They know that when they're arriving at that house, the dispatcher is able to tell them if that resident has registered with the police department, that there's an autistic person, for example, living in that home, so that the officers know that if someone's not responding to their verbal commands or is acting in an odd way or different way just not responding to them, they will know why. So maybe this is a great way. They might be nonverbal, and there's a lot of people on the autism spectrum that are nonverbal. So to your point, this could be helpful. And a lot of police departments, like the Miami Police Department, have certain households that are registered where there's people that have openly threatened police officers, threatened to kill police officers. So responding officers, if they're going to that address, the dispatcher is able to relay that information for officer safety, to let them know, Hey, there's an individual that lives at that residence that's named like this and this is their date of birth, and they've made open threats to kill police officers, so the officers are better prepared to handle that situation.
00:26:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's lovely and I think understanding, right, these are our needs in our households, and I want to keep my person safe and I want to keep the police safe. I don't want this to have a terrible outcome, right, you know. And part of that is just mental health, some diagnosis. The behaviors can be a little bit unpredictable. People take their medicine, then they stop taking their medicine when they feel better or they're having a psychotic break and they just completely stop taking medicine. They mix their medicine. If you have co occurring where they have substance abuse issues as well. So, yeah, there's a lot of things. You know, it's not like the police gets a chart, right and you know what this person is dealing with. You're kind of called in that moment. Tensions are already high in this household, and now we're adding police to this. And so I like that idea of maybe a decal or of getting to know getting to know your officers, you know the other side of that and thin Gas, we can't shy away from the issues that we're having now with I hear this a lot with clients, and it's a topic of conversation that we have to kind of approach, which is, you know what if I call the police and I have immigration issues, now, what's going to happen? So I think some of this leads to a lot of the miscommunication with police. I think it leads to more mental health issues of people who are depressed, anxious, feeling desperate, you know. And I think that a lot is being asked of our police departments to enforce all kinds of things, which I understand, but we can't make pretend that these things happen in a vacuum, right, there's consequences to all of it.
00:28:23
Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of studies that show a much higher rate of intimate partner violence among police. Can you talk about how that might connect to officer mental health?
00:28:36
Speaker 3: Absolutely. So it's a high stress job. There's a lot going on, and unfortunately, sometimes that can lead to coming home and just having poor communication with an intimate partner. It can lead to domestic violence, it can lead to all kinds of different things. And so then the person in that relationship, it's twofold, right because who am I going to call the police on the police officer? That's that can get tricky. It's so important again to have open communication, to seek out therapy. But we know that officers are exposed to complex trauma every day. That's why the treatment has to be different because what they're you know, what I can do with someone who's experienced one traumatic event, We can process that one event. I can't process with a police officer or firefighter every day because every day they're exposed to trauma. And so just not finding a way to not bring that home to your spouse. And I don't want anyone to misunderstand me and think that I'm victim blaming, but also I think for spouses to fully understand what their partner is exposed to and knowing to kind of read those signs of I think this person had a bad day today. That's never an excuse for domestic violence or for putting your hands on someone. But I do think that you have to understand your partner, understand their triggers, and they need to understand yours. You know, when you come home and you don't speak to me because you saw a lot of bad things today, I take that as neglect or is that you're upset with me? That erodes trust in the police. If we have now police officers engaging in domestic violence, now we have other issues and that's and that's not helpful either.
00:30:17
Speaker 2: Michelle.
00:30:18
Speaker 1: What are some of the available resources, both locally here in Miami but also nationally.
00:30:24
Speaker 3: So people can call the National Center for PTSD. They also have a great website that has tons of information. They can call NAMI, which is the National Alliance on Mental Illness. And then with your local department if you choose to go through your department, you can go through the employee Assistance program, you can go through your union. There's you know, various unions, the local for the fire Department, the PBA, the FLP, like there's there's several places where you can go and ask for help. You can always call the Suicide Crisis Hotline if you're at that point, right and you can always receive help. There's always help, And I think the most important thing for first responders to understand is that there is a therapist suited for you. And it's important to ask for help because you always respond to the call for help, but it's okay to also ask.
00:31:17
Speaker 2: For help, and it's so important.
00:31:20
Speaker 1: The National Suicide Hotline, if you need to talk, the nine eight eight lifeline is there for you in both English and in Spanish. You can text nine eight eight, or you can simply pick up your phone and down nine eight eight and thinkay.
00:31:32
Speaker 3: There's also a great local organization if you want to reach out to Bleeding Blue. They do a fantastic job of linking officers with any kind of therapist peer support, and they've done a really beautiful job of doing that locally.
00:31:47
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for coming on the show, Michelle here. Your work is really powerful and necessary. Thank you, thank you. If you have information to share on any cold case please caller send in a tip with your local crime stoppers or law enforcement department in Miami. That number is three zero five four to seven to one tips. That's three zero five four seven one eight four seven seven. You can also visit Crimestoppers three zero five dot com and select give a tip Cold Case Files Miami. As a production of Iheart'smichael Duda podcast Network and School of Humans, I'm your host Imbriqua Santos.
00:32:37
Speaker 2: This show is.
00:32:37
Speaker 1: Written and researched by Marissa Brown. Our lead producer is Josh thing Eedeli Spees is our senior producer. Sound design and mix by Josh Thain, fact checking by Savannah Hugley.
00:32:49
Speaker 2: Our production manager is Daisy Church.
00:32:51
Speaker 1: Executive producers include me Mbriquessantos, Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley from School of Humans. For more podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
