speaker-0: If this is who you say you are, then there is no way that you can coach this game. You know, so whether that game was gonna go on or not, Sean McDermott was not gonna coach that game the rest of the the rest of the night. Because of who I said that I was and and what I was about, that's the follow-through to me on on leadership.
speaker-1: Joining us today is a dear friend of mine and someone who I respect greatly ⁓ as a person and as a coach. Competed against him for a long, long time, and just one of the best in the business, Sean McDermott. How you doing, Sean?
speaker-0: I'm great, Jason. How are you?
speaker-1: Do I'm doing well. I like that Notre Dame hat.
speaker-0: Yeah, man, it's the Irish, right? Go Irish. Luck of the Irish, man. It's ⁓ my daughter's going there in a year here for for softball, so we're proud parents.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's awesome. A as you n you might know, I I do a lot of those Notre Dame games for NBC and you know, I always had great admiration for the place from afar, but being there a lot during the fall and meeting everybody, you know, the the the student athletes, the coaches, the administrators, it just an amazing place. So excited for you and your family. It'll be great experience for your daughter.
speaker-0: No, it's it's been her dream since being a little kid and ⁓ it's pretty cool to to be able to pursue that in in into the you know, as a as an older adult and and and or a young adult I guess I would say, but going to college at a spot where you kinda dreamed of going for years and we're extremely grateful and and proud of her.
speaker-1: That's awesome. It takes a village. Great job. Congrats. Hey, ⁓ I I wanted to start with this. Twenty seventeen, you become the head coach of the Buffalo Bills and a team that had some great success back in the in the nineties. ⁓ four straight Super Bowls. But after that, you know, there was a real dry spell there. And you get you get an opportunity to go up there to be the head coach, your first chance to be a head coach. And ⁓ I I'm just wondering you start off pretty well, then you kind of fall back, you get to five and five, and then you make a little run and and you finish nine and seven and make the playoffs. And and and and my thoughts are what was your feeling like when you clinched a playoff berth in your first year and having to go some of that adverse through some of that adversity in mid season?
speaker-0: Yeah, great question, Jason. And you know, seventeen year playoff drought is a little bit unique or a lot unique ⁓ because of the parity in our league. so it was a challenge, but the team, the staff, the building overall, they were they were in it to to to you know d be determined to break the break the the streak or the drought, I guess you would say, right? So ⁓ you know, d what a what a great example of people coming together for one purpose, one cause, one common cause, and really feeling a part of something bigger. And we talked that season, especially at the beginning of that season and through ⁓ some of those times that you're referencing where we felt a five and five about really just this, hey, this could be the biggest turnaround in professional sports history, the guys really bought into that and they wanted to do that. They wanted to be a part of something bigger, like I said. And man, it was a unbelievable experience. We we clinched the playoffs, ⁓ we beat Miami at the end of the season, last regular season game. We needed a couple of things at the end, one or two things to to fall our way. And everybody needs that usually to get in at some point, whether it happens you know, week eight or or week sixteen, seventeen at this point, like it did for us. And the Bengals on a fourth down and long s play, ⁓ Andy Dalton throws a completion and a touchdown pass on fourth and long, and the the locker room goes crazy. We're we're we're finishing up our game and I said, Hey, the guys want to turn the TVs on in the locker room, right? And I'm like, hey, no matter how this goes We gotta be proud of our season. And lo and behold, that happens and the place just erupts. We could eat we could even hear Bill's fans on the concourse above us jumping around, celebrating. It was just I mean, guys were crying. It was it was unbelievable.
speaker-1: That's that's awesome. I it's hard to do. It's hard to do for any coach, but certainly a first year coach. And ⁓ but the next year you fall back before you go on a great run where you go to the playoffs, you know, seven straight years. How was the year in twenty eighteen after you have that initial success? You feel like you got it going the right way, and then all of a sudden there's an adversity you hit in year two.
speaker-0: Well, that's human nature, right? We're gonna see, we're gonna come across hum ⁓ adversity, whether it's the course of one season or in this case, ⁓ twenty eighteen, our second season. So we get off to such a great start. And that and that was really going to twenty eighteen, we draft Josh Allen, and ⁓ we knew it was gonna be a year of growing and having a rookie quarterback, and Josh is so special. We knew that he was gonna be special at some point. It's just so hard.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ for young quarterbacks in our league with these defenses and what gets thrown at them. And fortunately Josh got hurt on top of that. And so but it really became a year of growth for us, a reset year. And, you know, we look back on the lessons we learned from that. And I was just recently talking with another professional team outside of the NFL ⁓ about this. Hey, when you have a good year, it is really hard to sustain success. in sports, but also in in life or or corporate America. One of the hardest things to do. And but we learned a lot about ourselves, a lot about the journey, and a lot about the process in that season of 2018. And coming out of that year, ⁓ I had a meeting with the organization and we just talked about the climb. Because it was time. Josh was going into at that point his second season. We were in a spot where We could put more on him and he was ready for it. and we added some pieces and and next thing you know, we're off and and heading in in the right direction on this clan that we talked about.
speaker-1: I if there's one takeaway from that year that says, Hey, we gotta refocus on this, was there anything that stood out to you?
speaker-0: Well, I ⁓ overall I would just say ⁓ the human nature piece of how you handle how you handle winning, it is you know, it it's like I said, it's human nature. Relaxan relaxation syndrome wants to get ya and you think you've made it, but in reality we hadn't made it. It's so hard to win in the NFL, so hard to sustain winning. So it's more of just a I think the psychology that and the mindset that you have to have when you do experience success, right, in order to do it again or even ⁓ improve your your situation.
speaker-1: And your role as a leader in in helping everybody understand that you certainly want to be positive and upbeat, but you also have to kind of, you know, hold their feet to the fire a little bit, right?
speaker-0: Yeah. And start that starts with yourself, right? Start starts with me and making sure that I'm I'm, you know, still hungry and knowing that we're not to our ultimate goal and ⁓ and yes, you know, at some there's times you you have to you gotta be the bad guy at times, unfortunately, but you can do it in a in a respectful way of ⁓ in a constructive way of teaching and reminding this is where we're at and this is what yet needs to be what work needs to be done.
speaker-1: Yeah, you you you you mentioned Josh Allen before, and I can't help but think that your experience with Andy Reid for all those years in Philly had to have had an impact on you in so many ways, and and probably with seeing him handle quarterbacks through the years. So many different guys played quarterback for him, and it just seemed like he always had an amazing ability to not put a quarterback in a box. Probably going back to his time with Brett Farm, but Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick and some of these guys and for you to see him and then see Josh Allen, who probably has a lot of the same qualities, this this big athletic guy with this huge arm, he's a little bit wild early on. How did you navigate Josh's development and how much did you rely on your experience with Andy?
speaker-0: Yeah, a lot, I would tell you a lot. I mean, I took a lot of notes being around Andy in a lot of different areas, Jason, and you know when you draft a quarterback in the first round, you draft someone like Donovan McNabb. Man, I had a front row seat to watch Donovan's development and and growth and how he handled the media and so I took a lot of notes, learned a ton and Similarly with Cam Newton when I was in Carolina ⁓ under Ron Rivera, ⁓ drafted Cam in the first round, obviously number one overall. And same thing, right? So I had a although I wasn't in the head coach's seat during those ⁓ two moments, it was really about learning. And ⁓ so I took what I learned from both of those situations and ⁓ and and tried to apply it to the best of my ability with Josh, even though Josh is is different. ⁓ Donovan was different than Cam. And so ⁓ as you said, we try not to put players in a box, in particular a quarterback, and Andy was terrific with that. And ⁓ so it was really just about, hey, make sure you know we we have the right plan for Josh's development on the field, off the field, how we're gonna handle some plays that he's gonna want back, that we're gonna want back, and how we're gonna handle know, some of those great moments that we know we're gonna have, ⁓ especially early. So all that, as you know, is what really leads to the development of a player, in particular a quarterback, that is that position is there's none like it in pr in professional sports, especially the NFL. ⁓ they have so much on their plates, so much on their shoulders. And, you know, Josh obviously has gone on to to great things and he's gonna be one of the best to have ever played the position and Listen, I'm I'm just proud to have been a part of it and and it's been a true honor.
speaker-1: Well, a huge part of it. Well, were there any breakthrough moments for him? You know, the it well documented. He completed fifty two percent of his passes his first year and you know, he did some stuff where he changed his motion and increased his improved his accuracy and he just grown before our eyes since then. But was there any inflection point for you where you said, Boom, he's really starting to understand how to play quarterback at this level?
speaker-0: Well, it takes some time, as you know, Jason, and having played it yourself and coached it and and been a head coach, it's it takes some time. You gotta go against some of these intricate defenses and some of these great defensive play callers that are out there and take take some take some scars and and ⁓ and and I took some and he's taken some and but to watch him I don't think there was just necessarily one game, but I the game I guess I would say might be playoff game against the Patriots, wild card game. We're at home. It's extremely cold. And I think we scored on ⁓ just about every drive. And I th I think that's still a record, ⁓ possibly out there. Don't quote me on that. But Josh was really dialed in that week. He's always dialed in, but in particular that week and ⁓ we had already obviously played New England twice that year. It's hard to face a team three times and and beat and and so You know, it was just one of those games that that Josh was on fire. It went our way defensively and offensively. And, you know, it's you can't script one of those games, but they c they come up from time to time. You just hope you're on the winning end of those.
speaker-1: Yeah. I I just thought you did such a remarkable job there. And you know, I always think about the context of when a coach takes over and there's great history and tradition in Buffalo like we talked about, but there was that drought. And for you to be there nine years and take that team to the playoffs eight of those nine years, remarkable. ⁓ you know, f for for me, yeah, as good a job as anybody in the National Football League during that time and ⁓ amazing job that you did. There you know, there there were some points though that You know, we couldn't break through, we couldn't break through, we couldn't break through, and Kansas City seemed to be the nemesis, like they were the nemesis for frickin' everybody in the league, right? I mean, your your old boss Andy and he gets Patrick Mahomes, th those guys are hard to beat. You know, the the what the one I don't want to bring up a bad memory for you, but the game when you guys, you know, go ahead and there's thirteen seconds and all of that. any thoughts on that experience leading up to it, what you learned from it and how you guys grew from that? ⁓ from that adversity.
speaker-0: You know, obviously a ⁓ a moment in in my career as a head coach and in and in our journey in Buffalo that people will remember and and those are situations and the way they were handled and and you always learn from those situations and and ⁓ you know and and you lead through ⁓ you lead your team through ⁓ and that's that's what we did. And ⁓ you come back and you say, Hey, we got right back at it again the next year and and made the playoffs again for the next, I don't know, was it would have been five years or something like that, four years. what have you. And ⁓ you know, the game comes down to every game in the NFL, it seems like, especially playoff games and especially against a great Hall of Fame coach like Andy and a Hall of Future Hall of Fame quarterback like like Mahomes, that it's it's gonna be, you know, in the margins. It's gonna come down to the final seconds and it's a game of inches. And sometimes it goes your way, other times it doesn't, but I can promise you, ⁓ I learned from that situation and we learned as a staff from that situation as well.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, ⁓ I had the opportunity to to visit with Mariana Rivera many years ago once and you know, the greatest relief pitcher of all time. And I asked him, I said, you know, for the last seventeen years, you never go into the game in the second inning, right? You go into the game when the game is on the line and you might throw a handful of pitches and it's gonna determine the outcome. And that that's your job. And and so, like you said, the game's on the margins, particularly as you get close. I mean, you're in the AFC championship game again and again, divisional round of the playoffs. I mean, those are the best of the best going against each other. And how how do you train your team for those moments? is it a matter of going through the situations? Is it talking to them about it? How do you how do you train ⁓ and learn from the different experiences you've been in?
speaker-0: Yeah, you I mean, experience is is a great teacher, right? And ⁓ when you're a head coach, you're just trying to win the first game, trying to trying to win one game and and so but you you're so you're so green, even though for someone like me, prepared year after year after year, ⁓ but but writing notes and but not being in a seat, they're they're two different things, right? And so when you're in those situations, you come back, I do at least, and you follow up on taking notes and And you learn from other people's situations or or or mistakes and around the league. You're always studying the league, always studying yourself, always trying to improve our process. And I'm a very process-driven person and decision maker and and planner for that matter. So we always try to have the best plan going into in terms of schedule, in terms of how we handled situational football and educating our team, educating our team on ⁓ our standard and what we expected on a daily basis and ⁓ all those things that lead to putting your team into those moments and getting there is one thing and then being in those moments and executing is another. And so whatever situations would come up the year prior, whether ⁓ you know, we had success with them or didn't, we were always trying to review those and and and do those on the practice field, but also in the in the meeting rooms. ⁓ Because again, for for just me to know ⁓ how we want to handle those situations, that's not enough. Your players need to know it, your coaches need to know it, ⁓ your game management people need to know it. So we're on the same page and that that c that collaboration is critical in the off hours where hey, you're not actually playing the game, but you're getting on the same page and as they call you're building that alignment.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, analytics is such a big part of the world today and it certainly has creeped into football. And, you know, I heard someone ⁓ from West Point say once that, you know, all decisions you make, the big ones, there's incomplete information, right? You you can't let, you know, some analytics guy take you all the way to the decision making point and and we've gotten a lot more information. We're closer to that point, but there's always a gap between that information you have and the decision that has to be made. And that gap is filled by the by the the wisdom experience and and instinct of the leader. And you know, I I'm I'm wondering where where you are on that, because I'm I'm like you. I mean, preparation process, all of that stuff that you just said, you're preaching to the choir. But but you have to allow for a little of that Sean McDermott gut instinct, all all your experience w w being around great coaches and great teams throughout your career to say. Hey, this is the thing we gotta do. We gotta go for it or we gotta kick it or whatever that decision is. What's the best
speaker-0: I think yeah, and I you you nailed it. When you when you have resources at your fingertips like analytics ⁓ or different things, those are those are parts of the equation, right? They're variables in the equation, but they're not the full answer. And as you mentioned, Jason, it's it's that gut instinct of hey, I've now processed all the information and we prepared, you know, back In the offseason, we handled off season the right way. We've handled our week leading into the game the right way. This is what we talked about, how we're going to handle it. Ultimately, then you go into the game and it's like you're gathering information and and and it's all of a sudden the situation may be similar to, but never the same. Yeah. I don't think any two situations are ever the same. Maybe or it because of how you get there and and your team and maybe in whatever. So, but I I think that's a great point of you fill that gap with ⁓ your gut instinct and your feel for where you're at, where your team's at, what you gotta do as a leader. And I mean that's that's really the essence in a lot of ways of leadership. Right. Is it's ⁓ tell me what the situation is and I'll tell you what type of leader I gotta be. ⁓ never, never abandoning one's core values, but that changes all the time in terms of ⁓ the situation.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. You know, I've known you for a long, long time and I value our friendship. I'm always amazed that you and Mike Tomlin were were were college teammates. And I think Dan Quinn was running around on the coaching staff that time too. Tell me what your experience Yeah, what was your experience like at William and Mary playing for Coach Laycock?
speaker-0: ⁓ phenomenal. I c I couldn't have asked for ⁓ a better head coach, a better program to be around than what was run by by Coach Laycock at Wham and Mary. ⁓ he's a true legend and and and a great friend and and will be forever. ⁓ just learned so much about crafting a vision for one's program, developing as I mentioned a few minutes ago, ⁓ a standard of what's expected on a daily basis, and then being able to hold oneself and others accountable to that standard and ultimately, you know, build player-driven leadership where the players do the same thing amongst one another. And ⁓ you know, one of the things for Mike and I, and certainly for me, going to the NFL I I gra I was a graduate assistant for one year, under coach Lake Cock at William and Mary, and then went to William went to ⁓ the Eagles. And I felt like once I got to the Eagles, that it was oddly familiar to me, even coming from a one double A program. And took me ⁓ I don't know, a couple of weeks to think through that. And I'm like, I understand why. It's because of the program program that I was around for close to six years be between my playing years and and my coaching, my one year coaching for coach Lacok and I mean he gave me such a great head start and and not and not just myself but so many others ⁓ in life but also in in the coaching profession as well.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, he's a legend. And then then you go to Philly, like you said, and you're working for Andy Reid and you know, Jim Johnson's there, one of the great defensive coordinators ever. Steve Specnol is there, John Harbaugh's there. I mean, all these guys. I mean, what what an incredible environment. Did you realize that it was as good an environment at the time? Were you able to soak up all the stuff from being around those those those great coaches and great people?
speaker-0: I didn I didn't really I didn't realize Jason how good I had it. I thought every you know, being it I was the only place I was in at the NFL level at the time and ⁓ I certainly appreciated and was very grateful, but I didn't I thought it was like that everywhere. And then you get out a little bit, you go to the combine and you talk to some other coaching friends and and you start to realize, hang on, it's not like this everywhere. Meaning that the program that Andy then was running, ⁓ And I would say Andy and Coach Laycock, two of my biggest mentors in the business. ⁓ but also being around the the the the coaches that you mentioned, among others, right? You Steve Spagnol, Leslie Fraser, Pat Schermer, Brad Schouders, Rod Dowhauer, Jim Johnson, I mean, ⁓ I Ron Rivera, there's more, right? ⁓ John Harbaugh. I mean, I'm leaving some out, unfortunately, probably because there were so many that went on to become head coaches. I was like at the time, kind of a young brother on the staff. And and I'll tell you who really, really invested in me, and that was Steve Spagnola. And to this day we are very close. and I can't thank him enough. It seemed like every job that he was kind of moving on to, ⁓ I was being kind of backfilled into his old job, whether it was coaching the safeties, whether it was a quality control coach, coaching linebackers, D B co so, ⁓ I learned so much by watching S Spags. And then what he did for me was he would always give me his notebook, basically his how he did the job in that specific role. And that helped me kind of get me started. ⁓ and I can't thank him enough. And so I tried to do the same for others that came after me. And I mean, that was really as I look at it now, that was really to me the Harvard of coaching when you talk about Andy and what was going on with that staff.
speaker-1: Yeah, and if you think about all the different levels, you're seeing an elite, elite head coach, obviously one of the best of all time. You're you're seeing an elite defensive coordinator, you're seeing elite, like you said, Spags there, ⁓ you know, at the different position coach levels. You're seeing it done at the highest level, and then those guys being so generous with you. I mean, I love Spags. We competed against Spags for years. I mean, I I'm with the Giants or the Cowboys against the Eagles, against the Giants, all of that. And he was one of those guys that was so hard to go against, but you loved him. We had such a great relationship, the competitive spirit that you have, but it goes beyond that. You know, you almost felt like we're we're in this together even though we're fighting tooth and nail against each other. He just got a unique way about him, doesn't he?
speaker-0: He he really does and you know, you you kinda brought me back to ⁓ some of our games against the Chiefs and obviously he he won some and and we won some. ⁓ but even in even in the games that we won, Spags would always come up to me, give me a big hug, and it was like we'd never even played the game for the last four hours, right? I can really appreciate that, especially in in our b in our business, how competitive it is, right? And he's he's one of a kind for sure.
speaker-1: No doubt. Yeah, no doubt. Okay, so so y you get the opportunity in Buffalo and and it's day one and you're thinking about, you know, crafting that vision that you talked about. And I'm sure it's a combination of Laycock and Andy Reid and Ron Rivera and all of that. was there anything in particular that stood out that said, you know, this Buffalo team is gonna be this. We're gonna stand for this. This is gonna be the identity of this team going forward.
speaker-0: Right. Well, like you mentioned a few minutes ago, Jason, you o you want to be who you are, authentically who you are. And I learned so much from Andy, from all the people that we've already talked about, and that helped mold me, but it also there was also this certain certain degree of, hey, okay, Sean, who are you? Yeah. And and what do you want this team to be in terms of the the the reflection of the personality of the head coach and So this the you know, when I played, albeit not in the NFL, it was you know, I was a smart player and I wanted our players to to to play smart football. ⁓ I wanted them to be tough because I always prided myself and what I lacked in ability, I tried to make up in toughness, right? And and I also felt that that was that that was a great connection to our city and Buffalo and the people and the community. Yeah. And that's huge, right? That that fit. And I didn't realize it ⁓ when you're looking for a job, you're just, you know, you there's only 32 of them in the world. So you're trying to get your hands on just one of them. But I was so fortunate to end up in Buffalo because of the symmetry between who I am, how I was raised, how my how I'm currently raising my family and our community, that that toughness that ⁓ just b bleeds out of Buffalo is is part of who I am. And that felt like that was a great marriage and I wanted our teams to play that way. Right. Play really tough football and and you know you're gonna have to be able to play ⁓ in the trenches because the weather's probably gonna change at some point late in the year in Buffalo.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. You know, I used to always say this that, you know, a lot of coaches, you hear them make a great speech, or they have a great sign on the wall, or they give you a sweatshirt or a t shirt with words on it, and and they're always talking about certain things. But but ultimately the people you choose to be with you are the ones that reflect what your team is all about. You can say we're gonna be smart and tough, but if you if but if you draft guys who aren't smart and aren't tough and don't represent the things you want. The players look at you like, Coach, you're saying this, but really you believe this, 'cause you drafted this guy with a first round pick or you paid him all this money and he he doesn't represent anything you're talking about. It's hard for me to think that during that process when you're evaluating quarterbacks in twenty eighteen, that you didn't think that quarterback from Wyoming reflected everything that you were trying to bring to Buffalo.
speaker-0: Well, you're right. And and you know, there's nothing worse, I believe, from a leadership standpoint, than a leader who has all these slogans but no follow through, right? I mean, it's you talk about buy-in, you're not gonna get buy in or you're not gonna get it for very long if you're not following up on some of these things you're preaching. And so, ⁓ yeah, we didn't have a lot of slogans for that reason in Buffalo, but the ones we had we were gonna make sure we followed through on. ⁓ and your and to your point on Josh. I remember going through, you know, the vetting process that that year leading into the draft, and one of my boxes was the fit to Buffalo. And without a question, it was like, Yeah, check, you know, if if ten is the highest, it was a ten. If five was the highest on the scale, it was a five. And ⁓ it just, you know, it it it worked out and and you know ⁓ but it also takes a person and a player like Josh to come in and execute not only as a player, but also as a person, right? In the community and to invest themselves and their time and make an impact in the community like he did and has for it to work. And and ⁓ and so for that I applaud him.
speaker-1: Yeah, no no doubt. You know, my dad was a coach and a scout for a long time and I can remember being a kid and in the back of the station wagon and I can hear him say something like, Hey, the head coach's number one job is to is is to is to pick the right players for the team and then play the right guys. And, you know, as a young kid, I'm like, What's he talking about? I mean, you know, isn't it about calling the plays or isn't it about this, that or the other thing? And you know, w w when you've been in that in that seat. Like I said, you can make all these slogans and all these speeches, but getting the right people to come with you, players and coaches, and then and then getting it you know, playing the right ones and putting them in the right roles, it's really the biggest thing you do as a head coach, isn't it?
speaker-0: It certainly is. I mean you gotta ha it's the people quotient, right? You the staff, as you mentioned, it's not just the players, it's the staff and the players. And it really is a puzzle that you're trying to put together piece by piece, never the most talented, but you certainly need talent. ⁓ and it and and it kind of ebbs and flows from there. But I've I find I found that to be one of the greater challenges of the job ⁓ every year. And that's where ⁓ You know, getting the right people, getting the right people in the locker room, who can handle handle a three game losing streak. How's that gonna be? How's this person gonna be with that? And I mean, it's it's really one of the fascinating things of trying to build a team and a successful one at that.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, you know, I always think about ⁓ you know, the biggest challenges of a leader are sometimes, you know, just making hard decisions about about personnel. And you're in Philly when Andy makes the decision to to move on from Donovan McNabb, who's right, he he's he's the forefront of the organization for a long, long time and a big part of your guy's success. And then he he he has courage enough to make that decision. And I'm sure you saw him make a lot of other decisions like that. at lesser profile positions. ⁓ was that something you were taking in at the time and and ⁓ and how do you, as a head coach for all these years in Buffalo, how do you process that part of the job? It's one of the biggest challenges, right?
speaker-0: No, it is. ⁓ you know, again, we go back to who do you say you are? And if you say you are X, then the follow through needs to be X, right? So, ⁓ Andy did that. Andy always said it was about the team and ⁓ that's that's how it was for him and every decision that he then made with respect to our team and I saw that modeled firsthand every day. and so that was not easy because those decisions are never easy when it comes to people's jobs and whatnot. in those situations, those are tough, hard decisions to make. ⁓ but you do them with great process, great empathy, and also ultimately then, hey, what's the best decision for in this case the team? And ⁓ Andy had a lot of tough decisions to make and then I learned myself ⁓ how hard those were first hand and ⁓ but again ex experience is a great teacher.
speaker-1: Yeah, no no doubt. I you know, we used to you talk about expectations and standards, and one of the first things I would say to the team in training camp, line one is every decision we make is gonna be in the best interest of the entire Dallas Cowboys football team. Period. Not any not any coach, not any player, not anybody you know, and and we're not always gonna be right, but know that our intention is this is why we're doing this decision. This is why we're making this call in this particular situation. So ⁓ I'm curious what you learned from Jim Johnson, you know, one of the all time greats and as someone who went against him, you know, ⁓ as an offensive coordinator trying to match whips with him. It was a hard it was a hard day now. But what what was his impact on you?
speaker-0: ⁓ it was it was profound in terms of ⁓ you know, who he was as a person, in particular ⁓ in the off season. Very, you know, during the season, very intense. ⁓ hard to find a minute without him being intense in the building or or on the field. But off off season he was ⁓ as laid back ⁓ as as anyone in a in and ⁓ he taught me a a lot about life in the NFL as a coach. ⁓ but then on the field, the way he was ahead of the game in terms of his how he I want to say defended offenses, but really I think the the word is attacked offenses. Right. I mean he he was he didn't like quarterbacks and I I've Tell my guys in Buffalo when I was there, I I don't like any quarterback other than you guys, right? ⁓ and so it's he had a just a a disdain for for opposing quarterbacks and he made them ⁓ very aware of that in particular early in games and because he knew that that had a trickle down effect later, ⁓ when it was gonna be, you know, critical situations and whatnot. But, you know, I would say at the time ⁓ Dick Lebau and and Jim Johnson were kind of for me the forefathers of what was going on in the game defensively when I was coming up and the way they zone pressured and brought five, brought four, but it was a different four and covered behind it and I mean, who would have ever thought you'd be dropping defensive ends into coverage, right? Of all things. And and so J Jim was way ahead of his time and ⁓ he's dearly missed for sure.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. ⁓ amazing. And and th those are some of those situations you reflect back on. And again, as an offensive corner at the time going against him, it's like, boy, ⁓ what what what an amazing experience to be able to have the opportunity to compete against a guy like that. And you know, it's the same thing with Spags. I mean, the rule was always sit on the fastball, react to the curve. So every every time A as a play caller, you know, as a quarterback, you expect heat every single down. Cause you never know, you know, he he's gonna bring pressure from everywhere. So that's line one. That's the fastball. And then anything else that comes off of that, we can react to it. If they play it straight, hey, we're gonna be fine. But, you know, they put they put that kind of mental pressure on you every snap, don't they?
speaker-0: Yeah. I love I love that analogy. It's it's it's spot on. I mean, you can't there's no way when that pitch is coming that you're gonna be able to okay, it's it's gonna be a fastball, curved ball, anticipate it all or what location inside, outside, you know, straight over the dead middle of the plate. But you had I think that was that's probably the best ⁓ way to anticipate what was coming because you never knew, even even for us when we would game plan, we're putting it in and I'm putting it in with our players and coaching safeties or linebackers and I mean there's a new two or three blitzes every week. ⁓ even when I was the quality control coach, he's Jim's coming in. It was usually a Tuesday, maybe Wednesday when the first and second down plan is pretty much already in. He'd put three new, you know, hand drawn blitzes on my desk and of course I had to do them on the computer. And ⁓ he was a mastermind for sure. I still have I kept a A notebook. It's it's probably this this thick of all Jim's kind of a Rolodex of his pressures. And ⁓ hey, weak, strong, added tight end, open side, and ⁓ and the notes I go back to in the upper right hand corner that were basically the why of hey, who were we playing that week? It was Michael Vick, it was Tony Romo, you know, whoever. It's ⁓ it's kind of interesting to go back and look at those.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. And I can't help but think that that style of defense empowers players. You know, you think about Dawkins all over the defense and coming off the edge and I I you can't help but think that those guys were energized by being having the opportunity to play in that system.
speaker-0: Right. And p and players they love to be in aggressive systems, right? Now, you get ⁓ thinking too much or they're not going to be at their best, but and there's a balance to that. But at the same time, players and I've talked to players over the years and they just they love being aggressive and they like they want an aggressive ⁓ play caller and and so we were very aggressive and but you also have to you also have to I think the balance of it all is you've gotta know who you have and
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Hey, we love to be able to get there with four, right? I think w all of us love that. ⁓ but but you can't always do the same thing all the time. So the blend of it all, I think, is where kind of the you know, where the gold is in the play caller's hands.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, back to your experience in Buffalo, if you had to if you had to ⁓ try to put your finger on, you know, what that team, that organization needs to do to break through, is there any one particular thing, or do you feel like, you know, it's it's you know, different team every year, different circumstances? My feeling is you go to the playoffs eight out of nine years, you're giving yourself a chance. And you're gonna break through. There's a long history of that in all kinds of sports, right? Where teams knock on the door, knock on the door, and then they knock it through. What what what do you think is the is the missing piece for them right now?
speaker-0: Well, if you look at it, you know, and and we were really close. I mean, even in the games, you know, we talk about our our playoff ⁓ you know, situations or whatnot. Some of those games we won and some of those games were were super close. I mean you're talking about a catch or a no catch. You're talking about as you mentioned. So, you know, the the thing I love about our team, even in in defeat, they battled, right? They battled to the to the last to the last ⁓ quarter and the in the last second and ⁓ and and so, you know, y I thought some of the moves I haven't followed everything, but some of the moves that that have been made I think are were necessary and and and important moves for for that club going from last year to this year and seems like they made a number of moves on the defensive side and ⁓ you know I I do I feel like you know that they're in a spot to to win a Super Bowl. They s you know that Joe Brady's gonna do a great job. He's smart. He's another women married guy and ⁓ he he studied four years ⁓ under us there and under myself and ⁓ I think he's gonna do a phenomenal job for him.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. ⁓ w what what are your thoughts? I mean, obviously ⁓ you you're one of the most accomplished coaches in the NFL and ⁓ you know, you certainly have opportunities to do a lot of different things. Was the thought just to take a year off, take a breath, and then get back at it in twenty twenty seven?
speaker-0: Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. I listen, I l I love ⁓ I love leading. I love leading a team and and I have a burning desire to lead a team to a to a world championship, Jason. And ⁓ at the time coming off of the season, we had been, you know, eight or nine years in the playoffs, and so those get long years. And so for me and my family it was an opportunity to say, Hey, you know what, before we jump right back in Let's take a take a little bit of time and and reflect and catch our breaths here. And it's given me a really unique opportunity to kind of do a three hundred and sixty degree reflection and evaluation of of myself. ⁓ spend time with my family, of course, which is important to me and I enjoy doing that, and then also really learn as well and and spending some time in in different areas trying to learn and And build on the success that we did have in Buffalo. That's that's what I'm planning to do, Lord willing, in the future here.
speaker-1: Yeah, n not not trying to delve into anything too personal, but on the three sixty review, ⁓ anything come out ⁓ that was particularly interesting for you?
speaker-0: ⁓ man. I j I was just up at the Giants and I took about ten pages of notes and ⁓ got back earlier from visiting with ⁓ with a another professional team outside of s outside of football, but nothing nothing that I could say that is like, hey, I've I've kind of crystallized it to this point. It's just all it can that process continues for me. And ⁓ you know, as you know, you're always growing, right? You're always wanting to learn. Hey, ⁓ we did this, how are you doing it? And ⁓ I really I really am ⁓ focused on ⁓ you know, just being elite in all areas. And I think that that constant pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is is just really how I'm wired. And I'm not really one to sit around and say, Well, you know, I've done this or accomplished that and we have. We had a lot of success in in Buffalo and ⁓ there's really one thing left to do on my coaching resume and that's to that's to win a Super Bowl. ⁓ so I'm I'm in pursuit of that, but also ⁓ enjoying a little bit of downtime with my family right now.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. You know, I I've been fortunate in this ⁓ in the media world that I'm in right now. I've been in twenty one of the thirty-two buildings over the last four years. And and everybody like yourself, ⁓ very grateful for the experience I've had up in Buffalo where you can sit in meetings. I'm in the team meeting or the offensive meeting or the quarterback meeting and out of practice and get a chance to talk to people. And it's really interesting because I'm not so sure people fully understand that when you're coaching a team, you're with that team. You're with that team all the time and sometimes you wonder how other people are doing things and you talk to people in the off season or whatever, but to have the opportunity to sit in and feel it like you did the other day with the Giants and I've done with you and and other places, you know, it it really can be impactful on you.
speaker-0: Absolutely. It's rare it's rare in that way, right? Usually you're on this cycle of the season, the draft, the free agency, the draft, and then you're with your own team. You hit about four or five weeks of vacation, you're and then you're into training camp and it's a cycle. ⁓ and it never stops. And so even though you find time, windows of time to learn while you're on the job, it's a situation like this for me that is Man, it's not that you wanna be there, but it's an opportunity to say, Hey, we're gonna take advantage of this. And I get a chance to go and learn from John Harbaugh, who, yes, we came up both around Andy, right? For I think I was with John for eight years, but to see how he then has make it made it his own and compare and contrast notes of how you doing this, how how you doing that and ⁓ it's it and get a r get into another building as you mentioned. I mean you're you've been in twenty some you said buildings in four years and no one's gonna let you in their building when you're coaching for another team. Right? So and and the NFL we do share, but we also hold a lot back. Right. And ⁓ and so it's you gotta if you wanna really get into that, you gotta go to a college program and and again the windows are of time are small and when you get a chance to do that. So
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-0: This has been a real unique opportunity. and ⁓ and like I said, this is one we're we're taking advantage of.
speaker-1: One of the things that struck me when I was up visiting you guys in Buffalo is ⁓ practice was great, really enjoyed it. And I look out after practice, and your son is out there, you're kind of 10 or 15 yards away, and your son's working with Josh Allen after practice on throwing the football. And j just a couple of thoughts. You including your family into, you know, that whole workspace, which is so unique, and then an opportunity for your son to work with one of the One of the best that to ever do it. Great experiences, right?
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Well obviously I wasn't enough of a teacher for him, so he had to go he had to go to the best. ⁓ it's ⁓ listen, when you're as you know, and you grew up around a a dad that was a coach, I grew up my father was a coach. ⁓ I vividly remember those days going to training camp or before practice, after practice, in the stretching lines, walking through kind of the lines and the and the dew on the grass is getting all over my shoes and you're just
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: the smell in the air and I mean those are great memories, right? And I want I I wanted my kids, but also collectively, our culture to be about family. And these these coaches, the staff, the players too spend so much time, sacrifice so much. But guess who also sacrifices the families, right? And so we we did a what I thought was a really good thing and we opened up our doors to the families. ⁓ hey, you got kids, you want to bring ⁓ in, let's, you know, bring ⁓ out to practice. Come watch practice the day before we leave for a game on a Saturday or even a home game, come watch us practice. I mean, that that connection, it just helps everything, right? It helps winning, it helps family dynamics. ⁓ there's so much stress on on the families. It's it I think it's an important part of being a transformational culture and not just a transactional one.
speaker-1: Yeah. Hey, back to your William and Mary days. What was Mike Tomlin like back then? And did you did you see him as someone who was gonna, you know, leap into greatness like he has? He's now gonna be our partner at NBC. So I'm looking forward to working with him.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, ⁓ you be you know, you you got your hands full, I can just tell you that.
speaker-1: I know that. ⁓
speaker-0: Now it's funny because everyone that doesn't know Mike, ⁓ in terms of back from college, ⁓ like I do, they think like he's come up with these new slogans and lines and he he makes them all up or he must rehearse them because he's such a ⁓ he's so good with his words, right? ⁓ and the truth is that he was the same way in college. When he would he was a fifth year senior, I was a freshman, he would come to the middle being one of the captains after practice, break the team down. And he just had a unbelievably unique way of communicating. Just like he does now in his press conference. And I'm sure, ⁓ I'm sure ⁓ his team meetings. And I've talked to some of the players that have played for him and they've they've experienced the same. So I think he's going to do a great job. I think he's going to be great for for the for the team and ⁓ I'm sure he's looking forward to it.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, my last year playing was in Tampa Bay. It was two thousand and four. I'd played with the Cowboys for eight years and the Giants for four and was getting to the point where I was, what's next? And I said, What the heck? I'm gonna go down and I signed with the Buccaneers. John Gruden was the head coach. Moddy Kiffin was the defensive coordinator. Rod Marinelli's there. Rich Bisach is there, all these guys, amazing coaches, great team. And ⁓ I come out of the locker room and I'm first day of practice and I'm not on the field for for ten minutes and I'm like, who is that guy? And it w it was Mike Tomlin working with the D Vs. I'm like, huh, that guy's a pretty good coach. And he was I I bet he was thirty two years old at the time, you know. Right. J just a young guy coming up, but you could tell right from the start.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. His his energy, his ability to communicate, his sense of humor as well. I mean, he's a fun he's a funny he's a character, right? And and you've seen it, I've seen it and his humor, his energy, his wisdom on top of that. I mean, he it's he he's gonna be great in that in in whatever role he's in in life, but also ⁓ when it when you guys team up there, it's gonna be great to see.
speaker-1: Yeah, no no no doubt. Hey, j just a couple more questions. The best thing you did in Buffalo during your time there, and what was the thing that you say, hmm, I gotta get it better in that area?
speaker-0: Well, I I hope the best thing that I did, and I believe this as a head coach, you want to win games and and that's certainly your your job and your responsibility. I think that that combined with making a a positive impact in the community, that that to me is really the the full role of a head coach. When you take a job in professional sports, it's winning and winning in such a way that it impacts the community in a positive way. ⁓ and I and I hope our family left Buffalo ⁓ in a good spot and and I believe we did. in terms of learning or something I could have done better. I mean you're always wanting to win the Super Bowl. You're always wanting to win the world championship. That's the goal or my in my mind should be the goal of every team when you start. And and so for me, ⁓ that that goal is still out there. That's that's ⁓ that's I'm still in pursuit of that goal. So I wish I could have brought a world championship to to the Buffalo Bills and and to the community and Bills fans all across the world. ⁓ and so, you know, that's but that hunger is that hunger's still in in my heart here. So ⁓ but they'll they'll forever be ⁓ in my heart and and ⁓ in our thoughts here as a McDermott family.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's awesome. Done an amazing job. You know, I think about all the highs and lows that you go through as a head coach or, you know, as a player in the National Football League, and many of them are are what happens on the field. Great successes where you win a game or you win a championship or you have a heartbreaking loss, but some of them are off the field too. And you you had a unique situation where it's kind of a combination of two. When you think about the Damar Hamlin situation, and you know l l leaders ⁓ reveal themselves, you know, in in in in traumatic situations. And and that that's probably as traumatic as it as it comes. You know, how did you handle that situation and ⁓ and and and and how did you get the team to respond the way they did?
speaker-0: Well, that was a unique night as well, and ⁓ one that I hope I never experience again. And ⁓ first of all, thankful that Damar is doing well and thriving and playing football again, ⁓ but more importantly, healthy and and with us because that was certainly a scary ⁓ scary event and one that as a coach you never think you'd experience when you sign up for a job. Sure. And ⁓ but what I What I really tried to execute that night was following through on what I s pretty much start every season with with our team in our in our first team meeting is communicating to the players that their health and safety is is number one. ⁓ above, believe it or not, winning games. ⁓ and so when DeMar went down that night ⁓ you could tell pretty early that something wasn't like a normal injury. Something was something was different. ⁓ I happened to be able to see what was going on a little bit with Damar, but and then also the way our trainers were reacting once they ⁓ understood what was going on, and certainly they knew more at that point than I did, but I just knew something wasn't wasn't right. And The way that they responded, I I can't thank them enough, and they were fantastic. ⁓ but there's no playbook for it, right? How are you gonna handle what's going on in the field, unfolding on the field at the time? How are you gonna handle return to play? How you're gonna handle the next, you know, days that that were gonna come the next week. And ⁓ I would just tell you this that, you know. Because there was no playbook, take a lot of notes, a lot of preparation over the years leading into the head coaching job. I just said at that point in time, hey, listen, if this is who you say you are, then there is no way that you can coach this game. You know, so whether that game was gonna go on or not, Sean McDermott was not gonna coach that game the rest of the the rest of the night. ⁓ because of who I said that I was and and what I was about. That's the follow through to me on on leadership, right? Yeah. And then it just so happened that ⁓ we you know, both teams decided the NFL decided not to play. And so myself, Brandon being our general manager, ⁓ Terry, our owner, Terry Pagula, and one of our training staff members went over to the hospital. ⁓ spent some time with Damar's parents and And then we returned to the team plane, met the team at the team plane, and I jumped on the intercom and gave them a quick update on at least on what we knew to that to that point. And then every day after that, leading into the next week's game, we tried to get an update and I would I would ⁓ communicate that to our team in the team meeting. And at one point we got so far as to be able to FaceTime ⁓ Damar from his hospital room and you can imagine the the emotion in the room ⁓ that morning. So
speaker-1: You know, I always think that the energy and the and the character of the leader ⁓ pervades the team. And to me, that's that's probably the most sterling example for me of you ⁓ throughout your amazing career as an assistant, as a coordinator, and then certainly as a head coach, you know, ⁓ that moment, how you handled that and how you supported Damar, his family, you know, your team, everything you stood for. I just thought it w I thought it was remarkable. And a and a great reflection of who you are and who you've always been. Hey can't Yeah, you're awesome. Hey, can't thank you enough for coming on, coach to coach. I I could do this all day long. ⁓ and and and I just have so so much respect for you as a person, as a coach, and I know great things are ahead.
speaker-0: Appreciate that. Thank you, Jesse. I appreciate that Jason. I think the world of you, you've always handled yourself with class, a true friend and pro and I respect the heck out of you.
speaker-1: Thanks, man. Look forward to talking to you soon. Follow Coach to Coach on social media and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
speaker-1: Joining us today is a dear friend of mine and someone who I respect greatly ⁓ as a person and as a coach. Competed against him for a long, long time, and just one of the best in the business, Sean McDermott. How you doing, Sean?
speaker-0: I'm great, Jason. How are you?
speaker-1: Do I'm doing well. I like that Notre Dame hat.
speaker-0: Yeah, man, it's the Irish, right? Go Irish. Luck of the Irish, man. It's ⁓ my daughter's going there in a year here for for softball, so we're proud parents.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's awesome. A as you n you might know, I I do a lot of those Notre Dame games for NBC and you know, I always had great admiration for the place from afar, but being there a lot during the fall and meeting everybody, you know, the the the student athletes, the coaches, the administrators, it just an amazing place. So excited for you and your family. It'll be great experience for your daughter.
speaker-0: No, it's it's been her dream since being a little kid and ⁓ it's pretty cool to to be able to pursue that in in into the you know, as a as an older adult and and and or a young adult I guess I would say, but going to college at a spot where you kinda dreamed of going for years and we're extremely grateful and and proud of her.
speaker-1: That's awesome. It takes a village. Great job. Congrats. Hey, ⁓ I I wanted to start with this. Twenty seventeen, you become the head coach of the Buffalo Bills and a team that had some great success back in the in the nineties. ⁓ four straight Super Bowls. But after that, you know, there was a real dry spell there. And you get you get an opportunity to go up there to be the head coach, your first chance to be a head coach. And ⁓ I I'm just wondering you start off pretty well, then you kind of fall back, you get to five and five, and then you make a little run and and you finish nine and seven and make the playoffs. And and and and my thoughts are what was your feeling like when you clinched a playoff berth in your first year and having to go some of that adverse through some of that adversity in mid season?
speaker-0: Yeah, great question, Jason. And you know, seventeen year playoff drought is a little bit unique or a lot unique ⁓ because of the parity in our league. so it was a challenge, but the team, the staff, the building overall, they were they were in it to to to you know d be determined to break the break the the streak or the drought, I guess you would say, right? So ⁓ you know, d what a what a great example of people coming together for one purpose, one cause, one common cause, and really feeling a part of something bigger. And we talked that season, especially at the beginning of that season and through ⁓ some of those times that you're referencing where we felt a five and five about really just this, hey, this could be the biggest turnaround in professional sports history, the guys really bought into that and they wanted to do that. They wanted to be a part of something bigger, like I said. And man, it was a unbelievable experience. We we clinched the playoffs, ⁓ we beat Miami at the end of the season, last regular season game. We needed a couple of things at the end, one or two things to to fall our way. And everybody needs that usually to get in at some point, whether it happens you know, week eight or or week sixteen, seventeen at this point, like it did for us. And the Bengals on a fourth down and long s play, ⁓ Andy Dalton throws a completion and a touchdown pass on fourth and long, and the the locker room goes crazy. We're we're we're finishing up our game and I said, Hey, the guys want to turn the TVs on in the locker room, right? And I'm like, hey, no matter how this goes We gotta be proud of our season. And lo and behold, that happens and the place just erupts. We could eat we could even hear Bill's fans on the concourse above us jumping around, celebrating. It was just I mean, guys were crying. It was it was unbelievable.
speaker-1: That's that's awesome. I it's hard to do. It's hard to do for any coach, but certainly a first year coach. And ⁓ but the next year you fall back before you go on a great run where you go to the playoffs, you know, seven straight years. How was the year in twenty eighteen after you have that initial success? You feel like you got it going the right way, and then all of a sudden there's an adversity you hit in year two.
speaker-0: Well, that's human nature, right? We're gonna see, we're gonna come across hum ⁓ adversity, whether it's the course of one season or in this case, ⁓ twenty eighteen, our second season. So we get off to such a great start. And that and that was really going to twenty eighteen, we draft Josh Allen, and ⁓ we knew it was gonna be a year of growing and having a rookie quarterback, and Josh is so special. We knew that he was gonna be special at some point. It's just so hard.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ for young quarterbacks in our league with these defenses and what gets thrown at them. And fortunately Josh got hurt on top of that. And so but it really became a year of growth for us, a reset year. And, you know, we look back on the lessons we learned from that. And I was just recently talking with another professional team outside of the NFL ⁓ about this. Hey, when you have a good year, it is really hard to sustain success. in sports, but also in in life or or corporate America. One of the hardest things to do. And but we learned a lot about ourselves, a lot about the journey, and a lot about the process in that season of 2018. And coming out of that year, ⁓ I had a meeting with the organization and we just talked about the climb. Because it was time. Josh was going into at that point his second season. We were in a spot where We could put more on him and he was ready for it. and we added some pieces and and next thing you know, we're off and and heading in in the right direction on this clan that we talked about.
speaker-1: I if there's one takeaway from that year that says, Hey, we gotta refocus on this, was there anything that stood out to you?
speaker-0: Well, I ⁓ overall I would just say ⁓ the human nature piece of how you handle how you handle winning, it is you know, it it's like I said, it's human nature. Relaxan relaxation syndrome wants to get ya and you think you've made it, but in reality we hadn't made it. It's so hard to win in the NFL, so hard to sustain winning. So it's more of just a I think the psychology that and the mindset that you have to have when you do experience success, right, in order to do it again or even ⁓ improve your your situation.
speaker-1: And your role as a leader in in helping everybody understand that you certainly want to be positive and upbeat, but you also have to kind of, you know, hold their feet to the fire a little bit, right?
speaker-0: Yeah. And start that starts with yourself, right? Start starts with me and making sure that I'm I'm, you know, still hungry and knowing that we're not to our ultimate goal and ⁓ and yes, you know, at some there's times you you have to you gotta be the bad guy at times, unfortunately, but you can do it in a in a respectful way of ⁓ in a constructive way of teaching and reminding this is where we're at and this is what yet needs to be what work needs to be done.
speaker-1: Yeah, you you you you mentioned Josh Allen before, and I can't help but think that your experience with Andy Reid for all those years in Philly had to have had an impact on you in so many ways, and and probably with seeing him handle quarterbacks through the years. So many different guys played quarterback for him, and it just seemed like he always had an amazing ability to not put a quarterback in a box. Probably going back to his time with Brett Farm, but Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick and some of these guys and for you to see him and then see Josh Allen, who probably has a lot of the same qualities, this this big athletic guy with this huge arm, he's a little bit wild early on. How did you navigate Josh's development and how much did you rely on your experience with Andy?
speaker-0: Yeah, a lot, I would tell you a lot. I mean, I took a lot of notes being around Andy in a lot of different areas, Jason, and you know when you draft a quarterback in the first round, you draft someone like Donovan McNabb. Man, I had a front row seat to watch Donovan's development and and growth and how he handled the media and so I took a lot of notes, learned a ton and Similarly with Cam Newton when I was in Carolina ⁓ under Ron Rivera, ⁓ drafted Cam in the first round, obviously number one overall. And same thing, right? So I had a although I wasn't in the head coach's seat during those ⁓ two moments, it was really about learning. And ⁓ so I took what I learned from both of those situations and ⁓ and and tried to apply it to the best of my ability with Josh, even though Josh is is different. ⁓ Donovan was different than Cam. And so ⁓ as you said, we try not to put players in a box, in particular a quarterback, and Andy was terrific with that. And ⁓ so it was really just about, hey, make sure you know we we have the right plan for Josh's development on the field, off the field, how we're gonna handle some plays that he's gonna want back, that we're gonna want back, and how we're gonna handle know, some of those great moments that we know we're gonna have, ⁓ especially early. So all that, as you know, is what really leads to the development of a player, in particular a quarterback, that is that position is there's none like it in pr in professional sports, especially the NFL. ⁓ they have so much on their plates, so much on their shoulders. And, you know, Josh obviously has gone on to to great things and he's gonna be one of the best to have ever played the position and Listen, I'm I'm just proud to have been a part of it and and it's been a true honor.
speaker-1: Well, a huge part of it. Well, were there any breakthrough moments for him? You know, the it well documented. He completed fifty two percent of his passes his first year and you know, he did some stuff where he changed his motion and increased his improved his accuracy and he just grown before our eyes since then. But was there any inflection point for you where you said, Boom, he's really starting to understand how to play quarterback at this level?
speaker-0: Well, it takes some time, as you know, Jason, and having played it yourself and coached it and and been a head coach, it's it takes some time. You gotta go against some of these intricate defenses and some of these great defensive play callers that are out there and take take some take some scars and and ⁓ and and I took some and he's taken some and but to watch him I don't think there was just necessarily one game, but I the game I guess I would say might be playoff game against the Patriots, wild card game. We're at home. It's extremely cold. And I think we scored on ⁓ just about every drive. And I th I think that's still a record, ⁓ possibly out there. Don't quote me on that. But Josh was really dialed in that week. He's always dialed in, but in particular that week and ⁓ we had already obviously played New England twice that year. It's hard to face a team three times and and beat and and so You know, it was just one of those games that that Josh was on fire. It went our way defensively and offensively. And, you know, it's you can't script one of those games, but they c they come up from time to time. You just hope you're on the winning end of those.
speaker-1: Yeah. I I just thought you did such a remarkable job there. And you know, I always think about the context of when a coach takes over and there's great history and tradition in Buffalo like we talked about, but there was that drought. And for you to be there nine years and take that team to the playoffs eight of those nine years, remarkable. ⁓ you know, f for for me, yeah, as good a job as anybody in the National Football League during that time and ⁓ amazing job that you did. There you know, there there were some points though that You know, we couldn't break through, we couldn't break through, we couldn't break through, and Kansas City seemed to be the nemesis, like they were the nemesis for frickin' everybody in the league, right? I mean, your your old boss Andy and he gets Patrick Mahomes, th those guys are hard to beat. You know, the the what the one I don't want to bring up a bad memory for you, but the game when you guys, you know, go ahead and there's thirteen seconds and all of that. any thoughts on that experience leading up to it, what you learned from it and how you guys grew from that? ⁓ from that adversity.
speaker-0: You know, obviously a ⁓ a moment in in my career as a head coach and in and in our journey in Buffalo that people will remember and and those are situations and the way they were handled and and you always learn from those situations and and ⁓ you know and and you lead through ⁓ you lead your team through ⁓ and that's that's what we did. And ⁓ you come back and you say, Hey, we got right back at it again the next year and and made the playoffs again for the next, I don't know, was it would have been five years or something like that, four years. what have you. And ⁓ you know, the game comes down to every game in the NFL, it seems like, especially playoff games and especially against a great Hall of Fame coach like Andy and a Hall of Future Hall of Fame quarterback like like Mahomes, that it's it's gonna be, you know, in the margins. It's gonna come down to the final seconds and it's a game of inches. And sometimes it goes your way, other times it doesn't, but I can promise you, ⁓ I learned from that situation and we learned as a staff from that situation as well.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, ⁓ I had the opportunity to to visit with Mariana Rivera many years ago once and you know, the greatest relief pitcher of all time. And I asked him, I said, you know, for the last seventeen years, you never go into the game in the second inning, right? You go into the game when the game is on the line and you might throw a handful of pitches and it's gonna determine the outcome. And that that's your job. And and so, like you said, the game's on the margins, particularly as you get close. I mean, you're in the AFC championship game again and again, divisional round of the playoffs. I mean, those are the best of the best going against each other. And how how do you train your team for those moments? is it a matter of going through the situations? Is it talking to them about it? How do you how do you train ⁓ and learn from the different experiences you've been in?
speaker-0: Yeah, you I mean, experience is is a great teacher, right? And ⁓ when you're a head coach, you're just trying to win the first game, trying to trying to win one game and and so but you you're so you're so green, even though for someone like me, prepared year after year after year, ⁓ but but writing notes and but not being in a seat, they're they're two different things, right? And so when you're in those situations, you come back, I do at least, and you follow up on taking notes and And you learn from other people's situations or or or mistakes and around the league. You're always studying the league, always studying yourself, always trying to improve our process. And I'm a very process-driven person and decision maker and and planner for that matter. So we always try to have the best plan going into in terms of schedule, in terms of how we handled situational football and educating our team, educating our team on ⁓ our standard and what we expected on a daily basis and ⁓ all those things that lead to putting your team into those moments and getting there is one thing and then being in those moments and executing is another. And so whatever situations would come up the year prior, whether ⁓ you know, we had success with them or didn't, we were always trying to review those and and and do those on the practice field, but also in the in the meeting rooms. ⁓ Because again, for for just me to know ⁓ how we want to handle those situations, that's not enough. Your players need to know it, your coaches need to know it, ⁓ your game management people need to know it. So we're on the same page and that that c that collaboration is critical in the off hours where hey, you're not actually playing the game, but you're getting on the same page and as they call you're building that alignment.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, analytics is such a big part of the world today and it certainly has creeped into football. And, you know, I heard someone ⁓ from West Point say once that, you know, all decisions you make, the big ones, there's incomplete information, right? You you can't let, you know, some analytics guy take you all the way to the decision making point and and we've gotten a lot more information. We're closer to that point, but there's always a gap between that information you have and the decision that has to be made. And that gap is filled by the by the the wisdom experience and and instinct of the leader. And you know, I I'm I'm wondering where where you are on that, because I'm I'm like you. I mean, preparation process, all of that stuff that you just said, you're preaching to the choir. But but you have to allow for a little of that Sean McDermott gut instinct, all all your experience w w being around great coaches and great teams throughout your career to say. Hey, this is the thing we gotta do. We gotta go for it or we gotta kick it or whatever that decision is. What's the best
speaker-0: I think yeah, and I you you nailed it. When you when you have resources at your fingertips like analytics ⁓ or different things, those are those are parts of the equation, right? They're variables in the equation, but they're not the full answer. And as you mentioned, Jason, it's it's that gut instinct of hey, I've now processed all the information and we prepared, you know, back In the offseason, we handled off season the right way. We've handled our week leading into the game the right way. This is what we talked about, how we're going to handle it. Ultimately, then you go into the game and it's like you're gathering information and and and it's all of a sudden the situation may be similar to, but never the same. Yeah. I don't think any two situations are ever the same. Maybe or it because of how you get there and and your team and maybe in whatever. So, but I I think that's a great point of you fill that gap with ⁓ your gut instinct and your feel for where you're at, where your team's at, what you gotta do as a leader. And I mean that's that's really the essence in a lot of ways of leadership. Right. Is it's ⁓ tell me what the situation is and I'll tell you what type of leader I gotta be. ⁓ never, never abandoning one's core values, but that changes all the time in terms of ⁓ the situation.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. You know, I've known you for a long, long time and I value our friendship. I'm always amazed that you and Mike Tomlin were were were college teammates. And I think Dan Quinn was running around on the coaching staff that time too. Tell me what your experience Yeah, what was your experience like at William and Mary playing for Coach Laycock?
speaker-0: ⁓ phenomenal. I c I couldn't have asked for ⁓ a better head coach, a better program to be around than what was run by by Coach Laycock at Wham and Mary. ⁓ he's a true legend and and and a great friend and and will be forever. ⁓ just learned so much about crafting a vision for one's program, developing as I mentioned a few minutes ago, ⁓ a standard of what's expected on a daily basis, and then being able to hold oneself and others accountable to that standard and ultimately, you know, build player-driven leadership where the players do the same thing amongst one another. And ⁓ you know, one of the things for Mike and I, and certainly for me, going to the NFL I I gra I was a graduate assistant for one year, under coach Lake Cock at William and Mary, and then went to William went to ⁓ the Eagles. And I felt like once I got to the Eagles, that it was oddly familiar to me, even coming from a one double A program. And took me ⁓ I don't know, a couple of weeks to think through that. And I'm like, I understand why. It's because of the program program that I was around for close to six years be between my playing years and and my coaching, my one year coaching for coach Lacok and I mean he gave me such a great head start and and not and not just myself but so many others ⁓ in life but also in in the coaching profession as well.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, he's a legend. And then then you go to Philly, like you said, and you're working for Andy Reid and you know, Jim Johnson's there, one of the great defensive coordinators ever. Steve Specnol is there, John Harbaugh's there. I mean, all these guys. I mean, what what an incredible environment. Did you realize that it was as good an environment at the time? Were you able to soak up all the stuff from being around those those those great coaches and great people?
speaker-0: I didn I didn't really I didn't realize Jason how good I had it. I thought every you know, being it I was the only place I was in at the NFL level at the time and ⁓ I certainly appreciated and was very grateful, but I didn't I thought it was like that everywhere. And then you get out a little bit, you go to the combine and you talk to some other coaching friends and and you start to realize, hang on, it's not like this everywhere. Meaning that the program that Andy then was running, ⁓ And I would say Andy and Coach Laycock, two of my biggest mentors in the business. ⁓ but also being around the the the the coaches that you mentioned, among others, right? You Steve Spagnol, Leslie Fraser, Pat Schermer, Brad Schouders, Rod Dowhauer, Jim Johnson, I mean, ⁓ I Ron Rivera, there's more, right? ⁓ John Harbaugh. I mean, I'm leaving some out, unfortunately, probably because there were so many that went on to become head coaches. I was like at the time, kind of a young brother on the staff. And and I'll tell you who really, really invested in me, and that was Steve Spagnola. And to this day we are very close. and I can't thank him enough. It seemed like every job that he was kind of moving on to, ⁓ I was being kind of backfilled into his old job, whether it was coaching the safeties, whether it was a quality control coach, coaching linebackers, D B co so, ⁓ I learned so much by watching S Spags. And then what he did for me was he would always give me his notebook, basically his how he did the job in that specific role. And that helped me kind of get me started. ⁓ and I can't thank him enough. And so I tried to do the same for others that came after me. And I mean, that was really as I look at it now, that was really to me the Harvard of coaching when you talk about Andy and what was going on with that staff.
speaker-1: Yeah, and if you think about all the different levels, you're seeing an elite, elite head coach, obviously one of the best of all time. You're you're seeing an elite defensive coordinator, you're seeing elite, like you said, Spags there, ⁓ you know, at the different position coach levels. You're seeing it done at the highest level, and then those guys being so generous with you. I mean, I love Spags. We competed against Spags for years. I mean, I I'm with the Giants or the Cowboys against the Eagles, against the Giants, all of that. And he was one of those guys that was so hard to go against, but you loved him. We had such a great relationship, the competitive spirit that you have, but it goes beyond that. You know, you almost felt like we're we're in this together even though we're fighting tooth and nail against each other. He just got a unique way about him, doesn't he?
speaker-0: He he really does and you know, you you kinda brought me back to ⁓ some of our games against the Chiefs and obviously he he won some and and we won some. ⁓ but even in even in the games that we won, Spags would always come up to me, give me a big hug, and it was like we'd never even played the game for the last four hours, right? I can really appreciate that, especially in in our b in our business, how competitive it is, right? And he's he's one of a kind for sure.
speaker-1: No doubt. Yeah, no doubt. Okay, so so y you get the opportunity in Buffalo and and it's day one and you're thinking about, you know, crafting that vision that you talked about. And I'm sure it's a combination of Laycock and Andy Reid and Ron Rivera and all of that. was there anything in particular that stood out that said, you know, this Buffalo team is gonna be this. We're gonna stand for this. This is gonna be the identity of this team going forward.
speaker-0: Right. Well, like you mentioned a few minutes ago, Jason, you o you want to be who you are, authentically who you are. And I learned so much from Andy, from all the people that we've already talked about, and that helped mold me, but it also there was also this certain certain degree of, hey, okay, Sean, who are you? Yeah. And and what do you want this team to be in terms of the the the reflection of the personality of the head coach and So this the you know, when I played, albeit not in the NFL, it was you know, I was a smart player and I wanted our players to to to play smart football. ⁓ I wanted them to be tough because I always prided myself and what I lacked in ability, I tried to make up in toughness, right? And and I also felt that that was that that was a great connection to our city and Buffalo and the people and the community. Yeah. And that's huge, right? That that fit. And I didn't realize it ⁓ when you're looking for a job, you're just, you know, you there's only 32 of them in the world. So you're trying to get your hands on just one of them. But I was so fortunate to end up in Buffalo because of the symmetry between who I am, how I was raised, how my how I'm currently raising my family and our community, that that toughness that ⁓ just b bleeds out of Buffalo is is part of who I am. And that felt like that was a great marriage and I wanted our teams to play that way. Right. Play really tough football and and you know you're gonna have to be able to play ⁓ in the trenches because the weather's probably gonna change at some point late in the year in Buffalo.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. You know, I used to always say this that, you know, a lot of coaches, you hear them make a great speech, or they have a great sign on the wall, or they give you a sweatshirt or a t shirt with words on it, and and they're always talking about certain things. But but ultimately the people you choose to be with you are the ones that reflect what your team is all about. You can say we're gonna be smart and tough, but if you if but if you draft guys who aren't smart and aren't tough and don't represent the things you want. The players look at you like, Coach, you're saying this, but really you believe this, 'cause you drafted this guy with a first round pick or you paid him all this money and he he doesn't represent anything you're talking about. It's hard for me to think that during that process when you're evaluating quarterbacks in twenty eighteen, that you didn't think that quarterback from Wyoming reflected everything that you were trying to bring to Buffalo.
speaker-0: Well, you're right. And and you know, there's nothing worse, I believe, from a leadership standpoint, than a leader who has all these slogans but no follow through, right? I mean, it's you talk about buy-in, you're not gonna get buy in or you're not gonna get it for very long if you're not following up on some of these things you're preaching. And so, ⁓ yeah, we didn't have a lot of slogans for that reason in Buffalo, but the ones we had we were gonna make sure we followed through on. ⁓ and your and to your point on Josh. I remember going through, you know, the vetting process that that year leading into the draft, and one of my boxes was the fit to Buffalo. And without a question, it was like, Yeah, check, you know, if if ten is the highest, it was a ten. If five was the highest on the scale, it was a five. And ⁓ it just, you know, it it it worked out and and you know ⁓ but it also takes a person and a player like Josh to come in and execute not only as a player, but also as a person, right? In the community and to invest themselves and their time and make an impact in the community like he did and has for it to work. And and ⁓ and so for that I applaud him.
speaker-1: Yeah, no no doubt. You know, my dad was a coach and a scout for a long time and I can remember being a kid and in the back of the station wagon and I can hear him say something like, Hey, the head coach's number one job is to is is to is to pick the right players for the team and then play the right guys. And, you know, as a young kid, I'm like, What's he talking about? I mean, you know, isn't it about calling the plays or isn't it about this, that or the other thing? And you know, w w when you've been in that in that seat. Like I said, you can make all these slogans and all these speeches, but getting the right people to come with you, players and coaches, and then and then getting it you know, playing the right ones and putting them in the right roles, it's really the biggest thing you do as a head coach, isn't it?
speaker-0: It certainly is. I mean you gotta ha it's the people quotient, right? You the staff, as you mentioned, it's not just the players, it's the staff and the players. And it really is a puzzle that you're trying to put together piece by piece, never the most talented, but you certainly need talent. ⁓ and it and and it kind of ebbs and flows from there. But I've I find I found that to be one of the greater challenges of the job ⁓ every year. And that's where ⁓ You know, getting the right people, getting the right people in the locker room, who can handle handle a three game losing streak. How's that gonna be? How's this person gonna be with that? And I mean, it's it's really one of the fascinating things of trying to build a team and a successful one at that.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, you know, I always think about ⁓ you know, the biggest challenges of a leader are sometimes, you know, just making hard decisions about about personnel. And you're in Philly when Andy makes the decision to to move on from Donovan McNabb, who's right, he he's he's the forefront of the organization for a long, long time and a big part of your guy's success. And then he he he has courage enough to make that decision. And I'm sure you saw him make a lot of other decisions like that. at lesser profile positions. ⁓ was that something you were taking in at the time and and ⁓ and how do you, as a head coach for all these years in Buffalo, how do you process that part of the job? It's one of the biggest challenges, right?
speaker-0: No, it is. ⁓ you know, again, we go back to who do you say you are? And if you say you are X, then the follow through needs to be X, right? So, ⁓ Andy did that. Andy always said it was about the team and ⁓ that's that's how it was for him and every decision that he then made with respect to our team and I saw that modeled firsthand every day. and so that was not easy because those decisions are never easy when it comes to people's jobs and whatnot. in those situations, those are tough, hard decisions to make. ⁓ but you do them with great process, great empathy, and also ultimately then, hey, what's the best decision for in this case the team? And ⁓ Andy had a lot of tough decisions to make and then I learned myself ⁓ how hard those were first hand and ⁓ but again ex experience is a great teacher.
speaker-1: Yeah, no no doubt. I you know, we used to you talk about expectations and standards, and one of the first things I would say to the team in training camp, line one is every decision we make is gonna be in the best interest of the entire Dallas Cowboys football team. Period. Not any not any coach, not any player, not anybody you know, and and we're not always gonna be right, but know that our intention is this is why we're doing this decision. This is why we're making this call in this particular situation. So ⁓ I'm curious what you learned from Jim Johnson, you know, one of the all time greats and as someone who went against him, you know, ⁓ as an offensive coordinator trying to match whips with him. It was a hard it was a hard day now. But what what was his impact on you?
speaker-0: ⁓ it was it was profound in terms of ⁓ you know, who he was as a person, in particular ⁓ in the off season. Very, you know, during the season, very intense. ⁓ hard to find a minute without him being intense in the building or or on the field. But off off season he was ⁓ as laid back ⁓ as as anyone in a in and ⁓ he taught me a a lot about life in the NFL as a coach. ⁓ but then on the field, the way he was ahead of the game in terms of his how he I want to say defended offenses, but really I think the the word is attacked offenses. Right. I mean he he was he didn't like quarterbacks and I I've Tell my guys in Buffalo when I was there, I I don't like any quarterback other than you guys, right? ⁓ and so it's he had a just a a disdain for for opposing quarterbacks and he made them ⁓ very aware of that in particular early in games and because he knew that that had a trickle down effect later, ⁓ when it was gonna be, you know, critical situations and whatnot. But, you know, I would say at the time ⁓ Dick Lebau and and Jim Johnson were kind of for me the forefathers of what was going on in the game defensively when I was coming up and the way they zone pressured and brought five, brought four, but it was a different four and covered behind it and I mean, who would have ever thought you'd be dropping defensive ends into coverage, right? Of all things. And and so J Jim was way ahead of his time and ⁓ he's dearly missed for sure.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. ⁓ amazing. And and th those are some of those situations you reflect back on. And again, as an offensive corner at the time going against him, it's like, boy, ⁓ what what what an amazing experience to be able to have the opportunity to compete against a guy like that. And you know, it's the same thing with Spags. I mean, the rule was always sit on the fastball, react to the curve. So every every time A as a play caller, you know, as a quarterback, you expect heat every single down. Cause you never know, you know, he he's gonna bring pressure from everywhere. So that's line one. That's the fastball. And then anything else that comes off of that, we can react to it. If they play it straight, hey, we're gonna be fine. But, you know, they put they put that kind of mental pressure on you every snap, don't they?
speaker-0: Yeah. I love I love that analogy. It's it's it's spot on. I mean, you can't there's no way when that pitch is coming that you're gonna be able to okay, it's it's gonna be a fastball, curved ball, anticipate it all or what location inside, outside, you know, straight over the dead middle of the plate. But you had I think that was that's probably the best ⁓ way to anticipate what was coming because you never knew, even even for us when we would game plan, we're putting it in and I'm putting it in with our players and coaching safeties or linebackers and I mean there's a new two or three blitzes every week. ⁓ even when I was the quality control coach, he's Jim's coming in. It was usually a Tuesday, maybe Wednesday when the first and second down plan is pretty much already in. He'd put three new, you know, hand drawn blitzes on my desk and of course I had to do them on the computer. And ⁓ he was a mastermind for sure. I still have I kept a A notebook. It's it's probably this this thick of all Jim's kind of a Rolodex of his pressures. And ⁓ hey, weak, strong, added tight end, open side, and ⁓ and the notes I go back to in the upper right hand corner that were basically the why of hey, who were we playing that week? It was Michael Vick, it was Tony Romo, you know, whoever. It's ⁓ it's kind of interesting to go back and look at those.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. And I can't help but think that that style of defense empowers players. You know, you think about Dawkins all over the defense and coming off the edge and I I you can't help but think that those guys were energized by being having the opportunity to play in that system.
speaker-0: Right. And p and players they love to be in aggressive systems, right? Now, you get ⁓ thinking too much or they're not going to be at their best, but and there's a balance to that. But at the same time, players and I've talked to players over the years and they just they love being aggressive and they like they want an aggressive ⁓ play caller and and so we were very aggressive and but you also have to you also have to I think the balance of it all is you've gotta know who you have and
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Hey, we love to be able to get there with four, right? I think w all of us love that. ⁓ but but you can't always do the same thing all the time. So the blend of it all, I think, is where kind of the you know, where the gold is in the play caller's hands.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, back to your experience in Buffalo, if you had to if you had to ⁓ try to put your finger on, you know, what that team, that organization needs to do to break through, is there any one particular thing, or do you feel like, you know, it's it's you know, different team every year, different circumstances? My feeling is you go to the playoffs eight out of nine years, you're giving yourself a chance. And you're gonna break through. There's a long history of that in all kinds of sports, right? Where teams knock on the door, knock on the door, and then they knock it through. What what what do you think is the is the missing piece for them right now?
speaker-0: Well, if you look at it, you know, and and we were really close. I mean, even in the games, you know, we talk about our our playoff ⁓ you know, situations or whatnot. Some of those games we won and some of those games were were super close. I mean you're talking about a catch or a no catch. You're talking about as you mentioned. So, you know, the the thing I love about our team, even in in defeat, they battled, right? They battled to the to the last to the last ⁓ quarter and the in the last second and ⁓ and and so, you know, y I thought some of the moves I haven't followed everything, but some of the moves that that have been made I think are were necessary and and and important moves for for that club going from last year to this year and seems like they made a number of moves on the defensive side and ⁓ you know I I do I feel like you know that they're in a spot to to win a Super Bowl. They s you know that Joe Brady's gonna do a great job. He's smart. He's another women married guy and ⁓ he he studied four years ⁓ under us there and under myself and ⁓ I think he's gonna do a phenomenal job for him.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. ⁓ w what what are your thoughts? I mean, obviously ⁓ you you're one of the most accomplished coaches in the NFL and ⁓ you know, you certainly have opportunities to do a lot of different things. Was the thought just to take a year off, take a breath, and then get back at it in twenty twenty seven?
speaker-0: Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. I listen, I l I love ⁓ I love leading. I love leading a team and and I have a burning desire to lead a team to a to a world championship, Jason. And ⁓ at the time coming off of the season, we had been, you know, eight or nine years in the playoffs, and so those get long years. And so for me and my family it was an opportunity to say, Hey, you know what, before we jump right back in Let's take a take a little bit of time and and reflect and catch our breaths here. And it's given me a really unique opportunity to kind of do a three hundred and sixty degree reflection and evaluation of of myself. ⁓ spend time with my family, of course, which is important to me and I enjoy doing that, and then also really learn as well and and spending some time in in different areas trying to learn and And build on the success that we did have in Buffalo. That's that's what I'm planning to do, Lord willing, in the future here.
speaker-1: Yeah, n not not trying to delve into anything too personal, but on the three sixty review, ⁓ anything come out ⁓ that was particularly interesting for you?
speaker-0: ⁓ man. I j I was just up at the Giants and I took about ten pages of notes and ⁓ got back earlier from visiting with ⁓ with a another professional team outside of s outside of football, but nothing nothing that I could say that is like, hey, I've I've kind of crystallized it to this point. It's just all it can that process continues for me. And ⁓ you know, as you know, you're always growing, right? You're always wanting to learn. Hey, ⁓ we did this, how are you doing it? And ⁓ I really I really am ⁓ focused on ⁓ you know, just being elite in all areas. And I think that that constant pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is is just really how I'm wired. And I'm not really one to sit around and say, Well, you know, I've done this or accomplished that and we have. We had a lot of success in in Buffalo and ⁓ there's really one thing left to do on my coaching resume and that's to that's to win a Super Bowl. ⁓ so I'm I'm in pursuit of that, but also ⁓ enjoying a little bit of downtime with my family right now.
speaker-1: Yeah, no doubt. You know, I I've been fortunate in this ⁓ in the media world that I'm in right now. I've been in twenty one of the thirty-two buildings over the last four years. And and everybody like yourself, ⁓ very grateful for the experience I've had up in Buffalo where you can sit in meetings. I'm in the team meeting or the offensive meeting or the quarterback meeting and out of practice and get a chance to talk to people. And it's really interesting because I'm not so sure people fully understand that when you're coaching a team, you're with that team. You're with that team all the time and sometimes you wonder how other people are doing things and you talk to people in the off season or whatever, but to have the opportunity to sit in and feel it like you did the other day with the Giants and I've done with you and and other places, you know, it it really can be impactful on you.
speaker-0: Absolutely. It's rare it's rare in that way, right? Usually you're on this cycle of the season, the draft, the free agency, the draft, and then you're with your own team. You hit about four or five weeks of vacation, you're and then you're into training camp and it's a cycle. ⁓ and it never stops. And so even though you find time, windows of time to learn while you're on the job, it's a situation like this for me that is Man, it's not that you wanna be there, but it's an opportunity to say, Hey, we're gonna take advantage of this. And I get a chance to go and learn from John Harbaugh, who, yes, we came up both around Andy, right? For I think I was with John for eight years, but to see how he then has make it made it his own and compare and contrast notes of how you doing this, how how you doing that and ⁓ it's it and get a r get into another building as you mentioned. I mean you're you've been in twenty some you said buildings in four years and no one's gonna let you in their building when you're coaching for another team. Right? So and and the NFL we do share, but we also hold a lot back. Right. And ⁓ and so it's you gotta if you wanna really get into that, you gotta go to a college program and and again the windows are of time are small and when you get a chance to do that. So
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-0: This has been a real unique opportunity. and ⁓ and like I said, this is one we're we're taking advantage of.
speaker-1: One of the things that struck me when I was up visiting you guys in Buffalo is ⁓ practice was great, really enjoyed it. And I look out after practice, and your son is out there, you're kind of 10 or 15 yards away, and your son's working with Josh Allen after practice on throwing the football. And j just a couple of thoughts. You including your family into, you know, that whole workspace, which is so unique, and then an opportunity for your son to work with one of the One of the best that to ever do it. Great experiences, right?
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Well obviously I wasn't enough of a teacher for him, so he had to go he had to go to the best. ⁓ it's ⁓ listen, when you're as you know, and you grew up around a a dad that was a coach, I grew up my father was a coach. ⁓ I vividly remember those days going to training camp or before practice, after practice, in the stretching lines, walking through kind of the lines and the and the dew on the grass is getting all over my shoes and you're just
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: the smell in the air and I mean those are great memories, right? And I want I I wanted my kids, but also collectively, our culture to be about family. And these these coaches, the staff, the players too spend so much time, sacrifice so much. But guess who also sacrifices the families, right? And so we we did a what I thought was a really good thing and we opened up our doors to the families. ⁓ hey, you got kids, you want to bring ⁓ in, let's, you know, bring ⁓ out to practice. Come watch practice the day before we leave for a game on a Saturday or even a home game, come watch us practice. I mean, that that connection, it just helps everything, right? It helps winning, it helps family dynamics. ⁓ there's so much stress on on the families. It's it I think it's an important part of being a transformational culture and not just a transactional one.
speaker-1: Yeah. Hey, back to your William and Mary days. What was Mike Tomlin like back then? And did you did you see him as someone who was gonna, you know, leap into greatness like he has? He's now gonna be our partner at NBC. So I'm looking forward to working with him.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, ⁓ you be you know, you you got your hands full, I can just tell you that.
speaker-1: I know that. ⁓
speaker-0: Now it's funny because everyone that doesn't know Mike, ⁓ in terms of back from college, ⁓ like I do, they think like he's come up with these new slogans and lines and he he makes them all up or he must rehearse them because he's such a ⁓ he's so good with his words, right? ⁓ and the truth is that he was the same way in college. When he would he was a fifth year senior, I was a freshman, he would come to the middle being one of the captains after practice, break the team down. And he just had a unbelievably unique way of communicating. Just like he does now in his press conference. And I'm sure, ⁓ I'm sure ⁓ his team meetings. And I've talked to some of the players that have played for him and they've they've experienced the same. So I think he's going to do a great job. I think he's going to be great for for the for the team and ⁓ I'm sure he's looking forward to it.
speaker-1: Yeah. You know, my last year playing was in Tampa Bay. It was two thousand and four. I'd played with the Cowboys for eight years and the Giants for four and was getting to the point where I was, what's next? And I said, What the heck? I'm gonna go down and I signed with the Buccaneers. John Gruden was the head coach. Moddy Kiffin was the defensive coordinator. Rod Marinelli's there. Rich Bisach is there, all these guys, amazing coaches, great team. And ⁓ I come out of the locker room and I'm first day of practice and I'm not on the field for for ten minutes and I'm like, who is that guy? And it w it was Mike Tomlin working with the D Vs. I'm like, huh, that guy's a pretty good coach. And he was I I bet he was thirty two years old at the time, you know. Right. J just a young guy coming up, but you could tell right from the start.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. His his energy, his ability to communicate, his sense of humor as well. I mean, he's a fun he's a funny he's a character, right? And and you've seen it, I've seen it and his humor, his energy, his wisdom on top of that. I mean, he it's he he's gonna be great in that in in whatever role he's in in life, but also ⁓ when it when you guys team up there, it's gonna be great to see.
speaker-1: Yeah, no no no doubt. Hey, j just a couple more questions. The best thing you did in Buffalo during your time there, and what was the thing that you say, hmm, I gotta get it better in that area?
speaker-0: Well, I I hope the best thing that I did, and I believe this as a head coach, you want to win games and and that's certainly your your job and your responsibility. I think that that combined with making a a positive impact in the community, that that to me is really the the full role of a head coach. When you take a job in professional sports, it's winning and winning in such a way that it impacts the community in a positive way. ⁓ and I and I hope our family left Buffalo ⁓ in a good spot and and I believe we did. in terms of learning or something I could have done better. I mean you're always wanting to win the Super Bowl. You're always wanting to win the world championship. That's the goal or my in my mind should be the goal of every team when you start. And and so for me, ⁓ that that goal is still out there. That's that's ⁓ that's I'm still in pursuit of that goal. So I wish I could have brought a world championship to to the Buffalo Bills and and to the community and Bills fans all across the world. ⁓ and so, you know, that's but that hunger is that hunger's still in in my heart here. So ⁓ but they'll they'll forever be ⁓ in my heart and and ⁓ in our thoughts here as a McDermott family.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's awesome. Done an amazing job. You know, I think about all the highs and lows that you go through as a head coach or, you know, as a player in the National Football League, and many of them are are what happens on the field. Great successes where you win a game or you win a championship or you have a heartbreaking loss, but some of them are off the field too. And you you had a unique situation where it's kind of a combination of two. When you think about the Damar Hamlin situation, and you know l l leaders ⁓ reveal themselves, you know, in in in in traumatic situations. And and that that's probably as traumatic as it as it comes. You know, how did you handle that situation and ⁓ and and and and how did you get the team to respond the way they did?
speaker-0: Well, that was a unique night as well, and ⁓ one that I hope I never experience again. And ⁓ first of all, thankful that Damar is doing well and thriving and playing football again, ⁓ but more importantly, healthy and and with us because that was certainly a scary ⁓ scary event and one that as a coach you never think you'd experience when you sign up for a job. Sure. And ⁓ but what I What I really tried to execute that night was following through on what I s pretty much start every season with with our team in our in our first team meeting is communicating to the players that their health and safety is is number one. ⁓ above, believe it or not, winning games. ⁓ and so when DeMar went down that night ⁓ you could tell pretty early that something wasn't like a normal injury. Something was something was different. ⁓ I happened to be able to see what was going on a little bit with Damar, but and then also the way our trainers were reacting once they ⁓ understood what was going on, and certainly they knew more at that point than I did, but I just knew something wasn't wasn't right. And The way that they responded, I I can't thank them enough, and they were fantastic. ⁓ but there's no playbook for it, right? How are you gonna handle what's going on in the field, unfolding on the field at the time? How are you gonna handle return to play? How you're gonna handle the next, you know, days that that were gonna come the next week. And ⁓ I would just tell you this that, you know. Because there was no playbook, take a lot of notes, a lot of preparation over the years leading into the head coaching job. I just said at that point in time, hey, listen, if this is who you say you are, then there is no way that you can coach this game. You know, so whether that game was gonna go on or not, Sean McDermott was not gonna coach that game the rest of the the rest of the night. ⁓ because of who I said that I was and and what I was about. That's the follow through to me on on leadership, right? Yeah. And then it just so happened that ⁓ we you know, both teams decided the NFL decided not to play. And so myself, Brandon being our general manager, ⁓ Terry, our owner, Terry Pagula, and one of our training staff members went over to the hospital. ⁓ spent some time with Damar's parents and And then we returned to the team plane, met the team at the team plane, and I jumped on the intercom and gave them a quick update on at least on what we knew to that to that point. And then every day after that, leading into the next week's game, we tried to get an update and I would I would ⁓ communicate that to our team in the team meeting. And at one point we got so far as to be able to FaceTime ⁓ Damar from his hospital room and you can imagine the the emotion in the room ⁓ that morning. So
speaker-1: You know, I always think that the energy and the and the character of the leader ⁓ pervades the team. And to me, that's that's probably the most sterling example for me of you ⁓ throughout your amazing career as an assistant, as a coordinator, and then certainly as a head coach, you know, ⁓ that moment, how you handled that and how you supported Damar, his family, you know, your team, everything you stood for. I just thought it w I thought it was remarkable. And a and a great reflection of who you are and who you've always been. Hey can't Yeah, you're awesome. Hey, can't thank you enough for coming on, coach to coach. I I could do this all day long. ⁓ and and and I just have so so much respect for you as a person, as a coach, and I know great things are ahead.
speaker-0: Appreciate that. Thank you, Jesse. I appreciate that Jason. I think the world of you, you've always handled yourself with class, a true friend and pro and I respect the heck out of you.
speaker-1: Thanks, man. Look forward to talking to you soon. Follow Coach to Coach on social media and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
