speaker-1: Perfect.
speaker-2: Ashley McGrath and Jonathan Shahar, welcome to Access Co-Leaders. Today's conversation is for every student who's ever felt behind. So maybe they're wondering, what should I major in? Am I choosing the right career? What if I changed my mind? What if I make the wrong decision? The truth is most successful people didn't get to where they are because they had a perfect plan. They got there because they stayed open to opportunities, adapted when life changed, and kept moving forward. So today we're talking about what career paths actually look like. So I'll start with you, Ashley. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're up to today, what your current role is?
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. hi. I'm the executive director of Minds Matter Philadelphia. We are a college access organization that works with students to provide them the navigational capital that they need to access the extremely complicated college application process, financial aid process, scholarship process. all of our students are qualified for low-income supports in the f in their families. and most of them are first generation college students. So we work with them to sort of get them over that hump and support them with everything that they need to get into college and then be successful once they're there.
speaker-2: Excellent. Very, very similar to our mission here, guiding them through high school and then through college onto their careers. So what do you enjoy most about your work?
speaker-1: for me, I think it's getting to spend time with the people that are there, whether it's the students. our model also relies almost exclusively on volunteers. So the volunteers that come through. I spend most of the week working alone from my house in South Philly. but then when we bring together for our bring our students and our volunteers together for our Saturday programming, it is extremely lively. It's really fun. The energy is through the roof. So All of the conversations that lead me to those Saturday sessions and lead new people into those Saturday sessions are the highlight of my work. I kind of refer to it as collecting humans. I really love collecting them. And then what happens when we come together in Saturdays?
speaker-2: Beautiful. So you've got a good balance of action and being able to get stuff done remotely.
speaker-1: Absolutely.
speaker-2: All right, Jonathan. What are you up to today?
speaker-3: Thank you again for having me. Love being a part of anything access co-leaders here. so right now I'm the CEO executive director of CBS Food Program, which is a non profit focused on providing excellent nutritious and dependable meals to the kids throughout Greater Philadelphia. we believe that just setting the sturdy foundation of a a good breakfast, a healthy lunch, a dependable snack for every kid in the area sets everybody up to succeed, grow and thrive. So That's kind of my day to day, making sure that the children throughout the Greater Philadelphia region are getting a meal.
speaker-2: Love it, love it, love what you do and your passion for it. So tell us a little bit about your passion and what you enjoy most about your work.
speaker-3: I think the thing that I enjoyed the most about my work is the sheer complexity and problem solving required for something that seems so simple as just putting, you know, a meal in front of a person, right? We here work out of our central kitchen, central distribution center, work with seventeen different vendors to source fruits, vegetables, main component meals, milk. have to bring that all in. We serve five thousand five hundred kids every single day at two hundred and ten different locations. So making sure that routes are going at the right time to the right place in the right amounts at the right price. all of these different kind of problem solving pieces that go into making sure that somebody has a healthy, delicious and dependable meal when they are there. That's what makes my day fun and exciting. No day is the same.
speaker-2: Yeah, quite quite the puzzle just getting that accomplished. but yeah, you guys are both industry leaders, spending your time and passion giving back to the community. But was that originally what you thought you would be doing or set out to do? So looking back when you graduated high school, what did you think your life would look like by now?
speaker-1: Yeah. So I actually enrolled in college pre med. and I went to one of those schools where they tell you in freshman chemistry, almost everyone in this room is pre med, and we promise you you won't be in four years. so I was one of those people that was not pre med in four years. and so I thought I was gonna be a pediatrician. I have big sister care for. kids kind of energy in my family. And so that's what I really thought I was going to do. I also, you know, grew up with a background where I kind of went to college in in many ways thinking like there aren't many careers. Like you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can be a teacher, or you can be like a cashier. And that's those are the options. And so when I realized I was going to be a doctor, it opens up this pathway of like, what else is there out there to do? and so if you would have asked me, you know, 25 years ago, if I thought I'd be leading a college access nonprofit, I would be like, that's not even a job. I don't like, no one, what does that even mean? So when I realized I was not gonna be a doctor, I found my my way into teaching and really found that I love the education space. And have navigated sort of through that in a number of different capacities. But, you know, eighteen year old me, I was gonna be a doctor, a a teacher, a lawyer, or a cashier. And that were the only options really.
speaker-2: so how many different jobs have you had?
speaker-1: I when I graduated from college, I found my way to Teach for America, which is a national teacher program. I taught at a middle school in Southwest Philadelphia for five years. Then I found my way across the bridge into Camden, where I worked in the school district, Camden City Schools for another five years doing a lot of cross-functional project management in the superintendent's office. After that, I came back into Philly and led school operations in a charter school for another four years, I think. Then I did operations in a my first nonprofit job was running operations at a nonprofit that doesn't that runs school-based health centers through the city. And then a year ago, almost exactly to the day now, I found my way to Minds Matter where I'm doing college access work. So I think that's six different jobs I've listed, all with a little bit of a a slant, but the through line through all of them has been education serving organizations, student serving organizations. and my role in those student serving organizations has leaned very heavily towards the operation side. so everything non-instructional.
speaker-2: Okay, so once you kind of distilled and were able to find that the passion truly was the education piece, that was able to be the guiding principle throughout. but that was really a key component to the to the whole trajectory is kind of highlighting and uncovering that passion.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think I think two, there were kind of two key components for me. One is the passion for education. So I I know that that's where I feel most fulfilled is working in the education school space. and two is knowing that I really enjoy and feel successful and good at taking processes and things that feel very messy or disorganized and making them organized and less messy. So You know, when I was listening to Jonathan talking about what he does every single day, I could do a job in Jonathan's organization. It's ops stuff, right? that's what I'm good at. I like ops. But That's not education. So it's you know, it's like I could do it, but it's not my field. and so I think those two things are what I really think about is like Ed is my home, that's my space, and ops is my lane. And the perfect marriage is when I find something that brings those two together, even though I could do ops in food service or ops in construction or ops in hospitality.
speaker-2: Yes. So the passion and kind of how your mind works. You're great at taking that aerial view and boiling it down to what needs to get done to get there. All
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-2: right, Jonathan, let's bring you in. Let's go back to your yester years and if you thought your life would look like this today when you were graduating high school.
speaker-3: Not in the least bit. I and I'll kind of run through the resume a little bit and at so many of the junctures did I not anticipate being at each of those particular steps. But left high school, I went to Penn State for business school and was originally a finance major. I thought I was gonna be an investment banker, a Wall Street person. and then, you know, I excelled in math, less in science, but mostly in math. So I liked numbers. They spoke to me. I was like, you know, grew up in a particularly middle class household. So I was like, I'm gonna use my math to make money. and then that was not it. So then I ended up switching to accounting, didn't love that. Stayed in the business school, ended up with a business management and economics degree, did a ton of internships to just kind of test stuff out. I'm gonna kinda leave those Aside just because we don't need to get into that laundry list. graduated, worked in a consulting firm doing healthcare consulting. So worked with hospice agencies, home health agencies, mamography and radiol radiology company, one bi biobehavioral health entity, just being a consultant for a couple of years and was like, nah, I'm gonna go to law school. So when I went to law school and I thought I was gonna go to law school to be a prosecutor DA and then Did not like that, so then shifted gears a little bit, clerked for a judge, then I worked for a mentor of mine at a firm that he started up, doing some corporate work, some commercial real estate work, and then was on the board of CBS food program at kind of the right place, right time, and there needed to be some support and the rest of the board asked me to kind of come on and do this and You know, I'd said yes. I have a tendency to say yes to things, and that's kind of where I end up.
speaker-2: Wow, yes. You've been all over the map. thank you for sharing and highlighting your openness to saying yes and how that's gotten to you to where you are today. I heard kind of some murmurs of this, but like was there a time when you're like, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing?
speaker-3: often and regularly actually. I I'm I'm generally of the mind that anything worth doing you should do even before you know all of what it is, right? 'Cause that's the the learning, the growth, the you know, testing, seeing, kind of like what Ashley said, there are s when you start there's so many like finite versions of careers, doctor, lawyer, teacher, cashier. But there are an infinite number of them and they of possible careers. And as we accelerate into the future, there are going to be careers and opportunities and jobs that we can't even think about or ideate in this conversation here. and kind of saying yes to something even, you know, just a little bit before you're ready or know or understand is like huge because it gives you the opportunity A to test something that you may never have known and be to just see if you can do it and if you like it and that'll that curiosity and that energy towards saying yes is where growth comes.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-2: A hundred percent agree. and then Ashley kind of spoke to her through line or her passion. Do you think you've uncovered that for yourself or like your guiding precept through all of this?
speaker-3: I think that at each job post and major and everything along the way, it sort of chiseled out, kind of like building out a sculpture. I loved the space and lane designation that Ashley talked about, right? The education being the space and the ops being the lane. I don't know that I have found my space yet, but I think very much in the sort of ops space. It's I'm enjoying it at this fold, right? In the in the legal career it's very much, you know, reading, writing, reading, writing, you know, a little bit of consulting on, you know, giving advice on how to navigate something. And it's nice to be able to, you know, read something, write something, give an opinion, say, Hey, this is what I think you should do. And then the part that I didn't love was the part where it was incumbent on somebody else to do the thing. Right. That was in my consulting space and my legal space. It was a lot of here's what I think you should do and here's why. And then it was incumbent on somebody else to do the thing. in this role, it's very much like I have to do the thing. People give me inputs, you know, my staff is wonderful, you know, they have the expertise more than I do. so listening, learning, understanding, and then kind of making those decisions and taking the action is the piece that I've in the last couple of years realized is much more my lane. Right now that space is food service and combating childhood food insecurity and I like it and I am It is an incredibly important and complicated issue that I believe if resolved will have, you know, orders of magnitude extra impact for all kinds of other folks in other spaces, right? I think I'm gonna be self-aggrandizing a little bit, but I think it'd be probably beneficial for Ashley and her work in the college access space if there are a panoply more of, you know, early childhood centers that are properly feeding their kids, properly educating and developing kids. If Philadelphia can become the best place to be and raise a child, there will be a a larger pool of people going to Minds Matter of Philadelphia to seek that access to that higher education in that college space. Same thing for workforce development and onward and onward and onward. So I think it's a fun space as of right now and it might be my space long term.
speaker-2: Amazing. So really saying yes and does this feel right and am I passionate about this? Could I see myself doing it? That's kind of been your your guiding precept.
speaker-3: Yeah. I'd say curiosity is big.
speaker-2: Yeah. All right. So moving forward a little bit, the plot twist. So what's something that felt like a setback that actually became a turning point?
speaker-3: I could
speaker-2: Quite a bit. Okay, sure, yeah.
speaker-3: so like I said, I entered college wanting to be a finance major and do the, you know, Wall Street investment banking thing. And at Penn State there was a GPA requirement to get the finance degree. And unfortunately I did not meet that GPA requirement. So they that decision was ultimately said to me, Hey, you can't get this finance degree, you're gonna have to find something else. and at the time that felt quite crippling, right? It was the kind of idea of myself that I had for a couple of years through college and something that I had worked towards and felt like a setback. Like somebody else was telling me I couldn't do the thing I wanted to do. and part of me was motivated to try to find another way. And what ended up happening was less that I found another way to become an investment banker, but I found a path that was probably more closely aligned with who I truly am and put me on a better direction to, you know, something better and different. I don't know that I would be sitting in this chair had I had my GPA requirement met.
speaker-2: So at the time it felt heartbreaking, but it really ended up leading you to to somewhere better. An interesting point, Ashley.
speaker-1: I think we all probably have our stories of, you know, the college major failed tests. Like I have those too. But I think just to parallel off of what Jonathan's saying, working in the nonprofit space, sometimes you are impacted by decisions that happen layers and levels and worlds well above you. so you know, I have had the unfortunately reality of having my jobs that I've loved and enjoyed be disrupted by policy changes. So for example, that school that I taught at many years ago was shut down in a restructuring by the school district of Philadelphia, which required me to think like, what is my next step? If that school hadn't shut down, I was comfy and cozy, I I probably would have sat there for a little bit longer and taught seventh grade math and science. fast forward a couple of years later and I was working in an organization that lost funding due to changes in in you know federal grant the federal grant landscape. And as part of losing that funding, we had to cut our headcount. And so positions, including the one that I was sitting in at the time, got written out of the budget. And so I think in the nonprofit space specifically, and it happens in the corporate space when there are reductions and you know, when people get removed from budgets and teams for budgeting reasons. I think those oper those can be seen as opportunities to give you a chance to force you to try something new and force you to put yourself out there and see what there is. I don't think I would still be teaching in Southwest Philadelphia now, but I do think that that moment of having our school be consolidated and shut down pushed me. to step into the school admin space maybe a little sooner than I felt confident and ready for, which I think ultimately did shape my trajectory, stepping into that sort of education and operations lane a little earlier than maybe I was ready for, maybe I knew about, but it's turned out okay.
speaker-2: Yeah. So how did you navigate that feeling, like forces outside your control that you need to push through and stay open, but also your heartbroken at the time. So how how do you get through that?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think relying on your network of people and and the supports that that network offers. So in in both of those experiences, there were both sort of institutional supports that I could leverage. so you know, support with interview prep and and resume transition type of things, but also sort of the friends and community and network that I had built along the way. So having friends who know people, who know people who are hiring, who are willing to connect you to new people when they know that you're in this situation like that, is is I think one of the most important and beneficial things to do. but I think that there also has to be a level of confidence and and humility and and being willing to say like, hey, this thing happened to me and it kind of stinks and I'm a little bit sad about it, but like let you know, where can I go from here? What's out there? What should I know? Who should I know? What should I be thinking? a lot of times you can rely on your network to, you know, while you're having your feels, they can push you in the direction that you need to get started.
speaker-2: Okay, yeah. And then on on the latter token, has anybody ever told you something you were excited about was a mistake?
speaker-3: Mm-hmm. honestly, I think I can't think of specific instances, but I'm hard pressed to say no. I think that there have been, mostly because the the path that you chart for yourself and the life that you create for yourself is like truly gonna be whole your wholly your own and like Nobody's gonna be able to see it in the way that you see it or experience it in the way that you see it. So there are going to be times when you're gonna get jazzed up about something and somebody's gonna say, no, that's not gonna work, or you know, you're not gonna be able to do X, Y, or Z. and kind of to Ash's point about you know, honing in on your network and you know, friends, family, support, community, like a hundred percent reach out, connect, they're gonna be supports in those cases. And also know that everybody is coming to it with their own kind of frame of reference. So they're gonna be super helpful in downtimes and then in the things you're excited about, like they also might be A little bit negative, Nancy. Sometimes that comes from a place of, you know, worry and, you know, concern and wanting the best for you. And sometimes that comes from a a lack of kind of understanding the full scope of what you're experiencing. But yeah, I think definitely there have been probably myriad of instances where people have kind of rained on a parade of something I was excited about.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think for me, a specific instance that comes to mind is a job that I was really excited about and interested in and made it really far in the application process. and then like it just you know. there was a lot of delay between emails and the thing that they promised would be coming didn't come. And I think having someone with sort of neutral eyes was like they're throwing up a lot of red flags right now and you're so excited that you're missing them. And so right now is when, you know, they should be putting their best foot forward. They're trying to hire you. And they're not doing a great job getting that to the finish line at this point. And so You're not seeing that because you're excited. But would it, you know, if you were to get this job and lock it in and move it forward, is that the type of environment that you would, you know, do you like working in an environment where someone tells you they're gonna do something and then three weeks later they haven't? And so having someone from the outside who wasn't excited about that job, be like waving red flags and and pointing to my values of, you know. You like when people are responsive. You like when people follow up. And right now they're not doing that. allowed me to actually s sort of step back and be like, you know, on paper, this is a perfect role for me. In practice, they're right that, you know, this isn't working out in a way that I would be excited about actually stepping into this role. and so I think I totally agree with Jonathan where it's sometimes people cheering you on, sometimes it's people being a little bit negative Nancy. But sometimes there's also an aspect of people just having a clear set of eyes because they don't have the emotional investment that you do and whatever's happening, which has been really helpful for me.
speaker-2: Yeah, you it it's hard to remember sometimes that you're interviewing them as well. Right. And especially coming out of high school or college, your first job, you're not necessarily gonna be thinking about it that as much, but it is it is a good thing to have top of mind.
speaker-3: Definitely real, especially if you right, like if it's something that you thought was gonna be great on paper or you know, coming out of college, first job, it's like I need this. And yeah I don't want to discount, you know, bringing in an income or taking a step, like those things are important, but also sometimes having a neutral to be like, I I understand you might feel like you need this, but do you want all of this that's coming with it? Yeah.
speaker-2: so Jonathan, you've had some pretty stark pivots in your career. Did anybody give you permission to pivot or or was that you?
speaker-3: The most recent pivot I got permission and it gonna sound just kind of like I don't know soppy or whatever, but I, you know, I I liked the firm that I was at. It was, you know, a good stable job and there is a certain kind of clout that comes with being a lawyer, I guess. But when I was asked if I wanted to take this role, I called my mom and was like, hey, I know that I just went through three years of law school that I'm like sitting on all this debt that you know I did a clerkship and you know went through the kind of trials and tribulations of trying to get my start in a legal career that I spent a lot of time putting together, but there's this thing and I I don't know. Like I think I wanna do it, but w and it would it be okay? I don't know that I said it as like, hey, would it be okay? But it was sort of like what are your thoughts? and sort of getting the, you know, we got you kind of response was like, okay, like I know that even if this thing goes horribly, horribly wrong, which thank goodness it has not, but even with the like possibility of things going horribly, horribly wrong, that you know, the the people that loved me and cared for me most were at least gonna still be there. regardless of the title or career or job that I had. So yeah, for this last one I definitely kinda got permission.
speaker-1: It's interesting, that you frame your current role as sort of maybe outside of lawyering. because being a school ops person, I know a sliver about food service. And I also happen to know that it is one of the most compliance and regulations driven industries you could ever be in. so I would say I think you're lawyering. It you know, you maybe aren't standing in a courtroom with a judge. but I think you're lawyering for sure.
speaker-3: I think that that's very much true. And back to kind of the point that I made earlier, is like kind of jumping in before you know totally if you're gonna be Yeah. Like I I knew that there was a a regulated space here. I knew that there was gonna be some level of lawyering and I still get to do it on a pretty consistent basis. My team here, especially, you know, some of the the leadership folks, whenever I really gotta get into it, I'm like, I'm going into lawyer John mode and they're Okay, door close, look we'll see you in a couple hours like us. But yeah, no, it's it's didn't know it at the time, but it's still a lot of lawyering type things.
speaker-2: Look at that support permission right here on the call. All right. So jobs that didn't fit. Students often think if I choose the wrong job, I've ruined my future. What what does that statement bring up for you guys? Is that true?
speaker-1: I don't think it is. I think if you choose a job that isn't the best fit, then you've just learned something about yourself. I think that, you know, if you didn't know, now you do. And as you look for your next role or navigate your next thing, you've now learned a lesson. I think though that the the push and And you know, where you can cause yourself some challenges is how you navigate once you realize, like, this isn't this isn't the best fit for me. I don't love this. This doesn't feel right. That's okay, but what you do from there matters. Like I think it's important for you to exit yourself from those situations gracefully and respectfully and in a way that maintains relationships and maintains connections. Like you don't want to burn down the house as you leave. Like leave the house in a good space and just say that's not the house that I want to be in. and so I think and then and then just remember moving forward what it was that didn't feel like the right fit so that you learn from that in your next job.
speaker-2: Totally agree.
speaker-3: mimic that completely. I think the only addition that I have is if you in a job, don't like it, not a right fit, need to leave. Respectfully, hugely important. Not burning bridges, like don't burn the whole house down. that's super important. The kind of add-on that I would have is You will learn something from everything, even the bad opportunities. Figure out how to describe or communicate the thing you learned from the bad opportunity. Kind of for twofold. One, it'll help in any next decision, like, I didn't like this about that. So, you know, I didn't like, you know, in the clerkship that's a lot of just like solitary sitting reading writing, sitting, reading, writing, not a ton of like inter human interaction. So I knew that, you know, I liked it for some reasons. The part that I didn't like was the lack of human interaction. And I knew that whatever I was going to do next needed to have a little bit more conversation with people. And then being able to describe it both for myself and my purposes and also to potential future employer, potential different path of like, hey, I did this. Here's actually why it didn't work and what I learned from that and why I, you know, shifted this way.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-2: Ashley, what's the worst job you've had and what has it taught you? What did it teach you?
speaker-1: The worst job that I had. so the the worst job that I ever had was actually in high school. I worked at a pizza stand at the Great New York State Fair, and I am not a food service lady. but I was like 17, so that doesn't really count. I would say the hardest job that I've ever had, though, was teaching. and I think the thing that it taught me. is I'm not gonna call it the worst because it certainly wasn't the worst, but it was absolutely the hardest. what it taught me is that I've always been someone who when you put the effort in, you get the outcomes. So you put 10 hours into writing a paper as a college senior and you get a really good grade on that paper, or you study really long and you're at the library and you get a good grade on your midterm. Like You know, as a student, what you put in is very frequently what you get out. As a teacher, that is not the case. And that is really hard to reconcile. So I could spend three hours writing a lesson plan, but if a mouse runs across the back table or like it rains and the ceiling leaks, or like any other silly thing that can happen in a classroom, like that three hours, I've lost it. Right. The day like that lesson failed. And that was really, really hard for me. and then on the flip side of that, there were days where I threw a lesson together in 20 minutes and I was like, this ain't gonna be a good day. And then it was, and that's even more puzzling. so I really like to be in roles where what you put in, the effort and the energy that you put in immediately comes back. And when you're teaching, there is so much that impacts that. That it's it's it was hard for me to feel consistently successful as a teacher.
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-3: My my turn to my turn to add something to Ashley's piece. So the the teaching, the putting in the how much you put in is how much you get back. I executive director of nonprofit, right? Things are happening, worlds and levels and magnitudes above and beyond. I feel like sometimes the skills that you learned in being able to be like, Hey, I worked really hard on this lesson plan, it didn't work. translate directly to a hey, I worked really hard on this grant and it didn't come through, or I kind of tossed this, you know, thing together real quick and it turned out to be a super fruitful, you know, endeavor, kind of might have built out that skill set for being able to handle it in the nonprofit space.
speaker-1: True.
speaker-3: So even even kind of the hardest moments in careers can translate out to the skills that are beneficial later on. I don't know that I've had a a worse job, kind of same idea that everything's got something worth learning.
speaker-2: I don't know if stayed somewhere longer than you should have. And like how did you know when to leave?
speaker-3: did I stay somewhere longer than I should have and how did I know to leave? the first consulting gig that I had out of school, I stayed a little bit longer. It was a little bit more complicated because I also had the law school thing coming down the pike. So I was like I was not particularly happy in the first year, learned a bunch, there was You know, definitely benefits. And then in the second, I spent a whole extra year there when I probably could have been doing a whole bunch of other stuff. And it was more of just a kind of punching a time clock. Luckily, in some weird kind of turn of events, I got a little bit more responsibility in that second year, kind of learned a bit more, found some things that I liked about it. so was able to kind of find some good in it. but in the You know, I've decided I don't want to be a consultant and I wanna be a lawyer phase. I probably spent an extra year longer than I might have needed to to to do that. But I think long and short, I'm a believer in kind of failing fast, quote unquote. Like if something's not if something's not working, you're kinda gonna know. And don't burn any bridges, don't burn the house down, but better to be like, no, this isn't it and then leave. My law school was very much I tried to treat it like a residency program where every semester I did an internship in a different kind of field practice of law. And I worked at this like small personal injury lawyer and I was working on a case about a painting and an outback that fell on somebody and they wanted to know if they could sue the outback for the painting fault and I was just like, No, no, this I don't wanna I don't wanna have to research this ever again in my whole life. So I left that one too.
speaker-1: There's a term in education. I don't I've never left education, so I don't know if other people say it, but for me it's my driver of if I'm somewhere too long and it's the the Sunday scaries. And so depending for me, I know when I'm in a place that's not the right fit fit for me, depending on how scary my Sunday nights are. And so if Sunday night I'm like, I don't want to go there tomorrow. I have to do long if I am dreading Monday morning, if I have serious Sunday scries, that is become a signal for me that something is off. And maybe it's just temporary. Maybe I'm working on a project that I'm not excited about. But if the Sunday scaries are getting worse and longer and persisting, then that is something that I've really learned to listen to in myself. thankfully in this job and my most recent jobs, my Sundays are not scary anymore. I don't sort of dread Monday morning. I Sunday night I'm not like, I have to go there. and so that's something that I think has been a weather vane for me is just like, how scary is your Sunday night? And if it's if it's consistently scary, then whatever you're doing on Monday morning maybe ain't for you for some reason or another.
speaker-2: I like that a lot. All right. I think I know the answer to this one for Jonathan. Would you say your career was built more by planning or by saying yes?
speaker-3: Definitely definitely say yes. And I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna be the flag bearer of that for as long as I can be. Just there's so much out there. There's so much we don't know possibilities in terms of jobs, careers, impacts. Just there's billions and billions of different ways to live a life and it's impossible for me in this call or any person in their own finite world to think of all those possibilities. So saying yes to stuff just opens more doors and windows and paths and all the cool stuff.
speaker-1: I don't think it is saying yes or planning. I think for me it's I always say I've I've just stumbled into a path that has worked well for me. Whenever people say, like, where do you see yourself in 10 years? I'm like, I don't know, because I didn't see myself here 10 years ago. But I think knowing what you like, what you're interested in, what you're good at has always led me to the right places. and pushing myself to take on new responsibilities and step into roles where I know that I'm gonna grow and learn new things has also sort of been my guiding principles in my path. But I certainly have to
speaker-2: Challenges. Yeah. how important have relationships been?
speaker-1: for me, really, really important. I in my last couple of roles, I d have have not really managed, directly managed people. So like, you know, I didn't really have to write many performance reviews. I didn't have to like I was managing work and I was managing projects and I was managing what people did, but not like their job in a lot of ways. and so to get people to work and and do good work when you're not like writing their annual review, it all r relies on late relationships and them feeling like, you know what, you know, I feel connected to this. I I want to follow up, I respect what she's asking, and that's all relationship driven. In this role, I don't have a single employee. Every single person that works for me is a volunteer. And so at any moment they could be like, I just don't want to volunteer with you anymore. Right. Like they're not like, I really need a paycheck. I have to put up with this for another month, or, you know, I can't afford to lose this job. At any moment they could all be like, I've had enough of this. And so in my current role, because everyone is a volunteer, it is entirely relationship and support driven. which I you know, I I have that experience as the project manager and and the person who is directing everyone's work, even though I'm not your direct boss. but this job really sort of ramped it up another another notch. The best way to get people to believe in you and do the things that need to be done and that you want them to do is for them to feel connected to you, not for them to feel like you're gonna write them up or you're gonna give them a bad review or you know, you're gonna give them some consequence, whatever that is. Like that is not the most effective strategy. It's really having them believe in you and trust you and, you know, for lack of a better term, like want to make you happy and and build back that relationship with you.
speaker-2: Yeah, not leading with the fear. Yeah. Go ahead.
speaker-3: So in your role, actually, you know, obviously there's not like employees or reports or anything, but I'm assuming that there are times where some of the volunteers or some of the connections that you have are, you know, maybe doing something that isn't exactly in line with vision or purpose or, you know, wasn't done to a certain standard. Like how do you navigate keeping right having that relationship not just based in kind of Propping somebody up but being able to provide sort of constructive criticism to also meet your ends 'cause obviously you have a mission to accomplish.
speaker-1: Yeah. And so in my specific role, I feel responsible to then if if someone's not doing the thing the way the thing should or needs to be done, providing the support or structure for them to do it. So, you know, maybe they are Creating a a plan that the plan doesn't isn't comprehensive enough. So maybe I can give them a shell of a plan and have them fill in the details and and do some co-thinking and co-planning with them. and so I think that's when I think about myself as like an ops and a project manager person, that continues to come through because the job of an ops project manager person is to get other people to do their jobs well. And sometimes that means stepping in really close to them and giving them a tool, giving them a resource, or helping them co think. And sometimes it means stepping away from them and trusting that they've got it. And it that's the same with working with volunteers.
speaker-3: Well we always learn from people that we chat with.
speaker-2: Totally. Yeah, this is a great matchup today. so to bring it full circle, talking about pressure, students often feel like they need to have it figured out by eighteen or twenty-two or graduation. When did you realize that's simply not true?
speaker-3: Hard to pinpoint a moment, but also I you know I can say definitively I have no idea what I want to be when I grow up and you know, here I am at this point. So I I hope that at least there's a little bit of a credence in that that you can listen to this and say that, you know, he seemed to do okay and still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up, so it's probably okay that I don't have all of the answers.
speaker-1: I have the exact same answer of I still don't think I've figured it out. I don't think like figuring it out is a a checkbox you make. it's a lifelong process that sometimes brings you in different ways. I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I don't think that I'm a grown up yet sometimes. and I still don't think I have things figured out. But like Jonathan said, like I'm doing all right and you know, do important work and and make a big impact for for students and families. but I don't have it all figured out.
speaker-3: Yeah. Yeah Ashley, do you ever have those moments where you're just like, When are the grown ups gonna show up? Yeah.
speaker-1: Who put me in charge here?
speaker-0: I am the grown-up.
speaker-1: Yeah. I am the grown-up, yeah, exactly.
speaker-2: Well what would you tell someone who's afraid, terrified of making the wrong choice?
speaker-1: There are few choices that you can make that you can't just make a different choice. And so give it a try. You know, there there's there are very few things that you do that you're locked in forever. So worst thing you do is you learn that that's not for you and make a different choice.
speaker-3: I like to think of it in kind of buckets. All of your choices are either hat choices, haircut choices, or tattoo choices. Your hat choices, you can change your hat any day. You can you can change in the middle of a day. You don't even have to wear a hat. You can make mistakes on you can wear a bad hat. You walk out, your friends like, Don't wear that hat again. And you're like, All right, man, this is not for me moving on. Your haircut choices, okay, maybe it'll be that's probably where a lot of the fear really is, right? It's if I get a bare haircut, like this is gonna look bad for two weeks, three weeks, a month until it, you know, grows back. That's usually your job career stuff. Like that's really where that is. Like if it's a wrong it's a haircut choice. It's just like growing out your hair again. You know, I wanted to buzz my hair, I didn't. I don't know if that was the right decision or not, but you know, I can decide later if I wanna buzz my hair or not. I would spend a lot of time on the tattoo choices though. a job and a career is not a tattoo choice. But I you know, probably like life partner kind of things, if that's a choice that you wanna make is probably a tattoo choice. the people that you surround yourself and connect with, like you continuity of relationships, those are more tattooed like if you have good people in your life and you cultivate good relationships, those are going to be lifelong, those are gonna be your tattoo choices and those are gonna have, you know, higher impact than what the job or career or, you know, major or whatever the case is. Those are Majors are and jobs are haircuts. The people that you choose to include in your life and to be included in theirs are those are gonna be your tattoos and focus on those.
speaker-2: That is a fantastic anecdote to round us out, Jonathan. So thank you so much. We're going to do a little rapid fire to finish out this session. So First job.
speaker-1: Working at the New York State fair and the food stand.
speaker-3: I was a busboy for a local restaurant here.
speaker-2: Biggest surprise.
speaker-3: In career or in life?
speaker-2: it geared to a career, but if you wanna go life you can. Slow fire here. Dream job at eighteen.
speaker-3: President of the United States.
speaker-1: Pediatrician.
speaker-2: Okay. Dream job now.
speaker-3: CEO executive director of CPS food program.
speaker-1: Minds matter executive director, but I still don't know what I wanna be when I grow up. So who knows?
speaker-2: One word that describes your career path.
speaker-1: Mission driven. That's two. But it's hyphenated.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-3: Non linear.
speaker-2: Okay. All right. Finish these sentences. I wish I had known.
speaker-3: It's gonna be okay.
speaker-1: That's a good one. It'll all work out.
speaker-2: I almost quit when
speaker-1: I failed chemistry two seven.
speaker-3: I accidentally wired money to the wrong bank account in one of my first transactions as a lawyer.
speaker-2: jeez.
speaker-3: Yeah, that's a fun story for a different time. It got corrected, everything was okay, but it was it it was a tough day.
speaker-2: geez. the best opportunity I never planned for was
speaker-3: Running a mission driven organization that helps to provide meals to five thousand five hundred kids every single day?
speaker-1: Staying in education after only doing a two year program that brought me there.
speaker-2: Okay. Success started when I stopped.
speaker-1: Thinking I had to be perfect.
speaker-3: Trying to do it alone success is in the agency of others.
speaker-2: Great. Students should give themselves permission to
speaker-1: Have fun and fail at things.
speaker-3: Be scared, but do it anyway.
speaker-2: Fantastic. so imagine every student today is listening and is worried about falling behind. You have one minute, what's the message you want them to remember? So kind of wrapping up the entire conversation.
speaker-1: For me, I think that where you end up is gonna be more an a reflection of, you know, who you meet and how you carry yourself and the mindset you have about yourself and and your confidence, your willingness to fail and try new things and get up and try again, than it is going to be making your way through some imaginary checklist that you believe you need to make your way through. it's Success is more of a web and a network than it is a road or a path that you're gonna walk on.
speaker-2: Love it.
speaker-3: Mine's gonna be a little nerdy, but Isaac Newton's law, an object in motion will stay in motion, object at rest will stay at rest. Timelines are they're constructed in our own heads, they're put on us by other people, they're not real. The only way that you fall behind is if you stop moving. If you stop trying, if you stop doing, if you stop being curious, if you stop learning, stop connecting an object in motion will remain in motion. So if you keep at it, you're not falling behind, you're just moving.
speaker-2: Yes, yes, yes. Well thank you so much, Ashley McGrath from Minds Matter Philadelphia, and Jonathan Shahar from CBS Food Program. Students, if today's conversation taught us anything, it's that careers aren't built by having a perfect plan. They're built by saying yes, by staying curious, by learning from mistakes, by trusting yourself enough to take the next step. Your career doesn't have to make sense looking forward. Most of the time it only makes sense looking back. Thank you so much for joining us on Access Co Leaders Summer Leadership Series. We'll see you next time.
speaker-2: Ashley McGrath and Jonathan Shahar, welcome to Access Co-Leaders. Today's conversation is for every student who's ever felt behind. So maybe they're wondering, what should I major in? Am I choosing the right career? What if I changed my mind? What if I make the wrong decision? The truth is most successful people didn't get to where they are because they had a perfect plan. They got there because they stayed open to opportunities, adapted when life changed, and kept moving forward. So today we're talking about what career paths actually look like. So I'll start with you, Ashley. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're up to today, what your current role is?
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. hi. I'm the executive director of Minds Matter Philadelphia. We are a college access organization that works with students to provide them the navigational capital that they need to access the extremely complicated college application process, financial aid process, scholarship process. all of our students are qualified for low-income supports in the f in their families. and most of them are first generation college students. So we work with them to sort of get them over that hump and support them with everything that they need to get into college and then be successful once they're there.
speaker-2: Excellent. Very, very similar to our mission here, guiding them through high school and then through college onto their careers. So what do you enjoy most about your work?
speaker-1: for me, I think it's getting to spend time with the people that are there, whether it's the students. our model also relies almost exclusively on volunteers. So the volunteers that come through. I spend most of the week working alone from my house in South Philly. but then when we bring together for our bring our students and our volunteers together for our Saturday programming, it is extremely lively. It's really fun. The energy is through the roof. So All of the conversations that lead me to those Saturday sessions and lead new people into those Saturday sessions are the highlight of my work. I kind of refer to it as collecting humans. I really love collecting them. And then what happens when we come together in Saturdays?
speaker-2: Beautiful. So you've got a good balance of action and being able to get stuff done remotely.
speaker-1: Absolutely.
speaker-2: All right, Jonathan. What are you up to today?
speaker-3: Thank you again for having me. Love being a part of anything access co-leaders here. so right now I'm the CEO executive director of CBS Food Program, which is a non profit focused on providing excellent nutritious and dependable meals to the kids throughout Greater Philadelphia. we believe that just setting the sturdy foundation of a a good breakfast, a healthy lunch, a dependable snack for every kid in the area sets everybody up to succeed, grow and thrive. So That's kind of my day to day, making sure that the children throughout the Greater Philadelphia region are getting a meal.
speaker-2: Love it, love it, love what you do and your passion for it. So tell us a little bit about your passion and what you enjoy most about your work.
speaker-3: I think the thing that I enjoyed the most about my work is the sheer complexity and problem solving required for something that seems so simple as just putting, you know, a meal in front of a person, right? We here work out of our central kitchen, central distribution center, work with seventeen different vendors to source fruits, vegetables, main component meals, milk. have to bring that all in. We serve five thousand five hundred kids every single day at two hundred and ten different locations. So making sure that routes are going at the right time to the right place in the right amounts at the right price. all of these different kind of problem solving pieces that go into making sure that somebody has a healthy, delicious and dependable meal when they are there. That's what makes my day fun and exciting. No day is the same.
speaker-2: Yeah, quite quite the puzzle just getting that accomplished. but yeah, you guys are both industry leaders, spending your time and passion giving back to the community. But was that originally what you thought you would be doing or set out to do? So looking back when you graduated high school, what did you think your life would look like by now?
speaker-1: Yeah. So I actually enrolled in college pre med. and I went to one of those schools where they tell you in freshman chemistry, almost everyone in this room is pre med, and we promise you you won't be in four years. so I was one of those people that was not pre med in four years. and so I thought I was gonna be a pediatrician. I have big sister care for. kids kind of energy in my family. And so that's what I really thought I was going to do. I also, you know, grew up with a background where I kind of went to college in in many ways thinking like there aren't many careers. Like you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can be a teacher, or you can be like a cashier. And that's those are the options. And so when I realized I was going to be a doctor, it opens up this pathway of like, what else is there out there to do? and so if you would have asked me, you know, 25 years ago, if I thought I'd be leading a college access nonprofit, I would be like, that's not even a job. I don't like, no one, what does that even mean? So when I realized I was not gonna be a doctor, I found my my way into teaching and really found that I love the education space. And have navigated sort of through that in a number of different capacities. But, you know, eighteen year old me, I was gonna be a doctor, a a teacher, a lawyer, or a cashier. And that were the only options really.
speaker-2: so how many different jobs have you had?
speaker-1: I when I graduated from college, I found my way to Teach for America, which is a national teacher program. I taught at a middle school in Southwest Philadelphia for five years. Then I found my way across the bridge into Camden, where I worked in the school district, Camden City Schools for another five years doing a lot of cross-functional project management in the superintendent's office. After that, I came back into Philly and led school operations in a charter school for another four years, I think. Then I did operations in a my first nonprofit job was running operations at a nonprofit that doesn't that runs school-based health centers through the city. And then a year ago, almost exactly to the day now, I found my way to Minds Matter where I'm doing college access work. So I think that's six different jobs I've listed, all with a little bit of a a slant, but the through line through all of them has been education serving organizations, student serving organizations. and my role in those student serving organizations has leaned very heavily towards the operation side. so everything non-instructional.
speaker-2: Okay, so once you kind of distilled and were able to find that the passion truly was the education piece, that was able to be the guiding principle throughout. but that was really a key component to the to the whole trajectory is kind of highlighting and uncovering that passion.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think I think two, there were kind of two key components for me. One is the passion for education. So I I know that that's where I feel most fulfilled is working in the education school space. and two is knowing that I really enjoy and feel successful and good at taking processes and things that feel very messy or disorganized and making them organized and less messy. So You know, when I was listening to Jonathan talking about what he does every single day, I could do a job in Jonathan's organization. It's ops stuff, right? that's what I'm good at. I like ops. But That's not education. So it's you know, it's like I could do it, but it's not my field. and so I think those two things are what I really think about is like Ed is my home, that's my space, and ops is my lane. And the perfect marriage is when I find something that brings those two together, even though I could do ops in food service or ops in construction or ops in hospitality.
speaker-2: Yes. So the passion and kind of how your mind works. You're great at taking that aerial view and boiling it down to what needs to get done to get there. All
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-2: right, Jonathan, let's bring you in. Let's go back to your yester years and if you thought your life would look like this today when you were graduating high school.
speaker-3: Not in the least bit. I and I'll kind of run through the resume a little bit and at so many of the junctures did I not anticipate being at each of those particular steps. But left high school, I went to Penn State for business school and was originally a finance major. I thought I was gonna be an investment banker, a Wall Street person. and then, you know, I excelled in math, less in science, but mostly in math. So I liked numbers. They spoke to me. I was like, you know, grew up in a particularly middle class household. So I was like, I'm gonna use my math to make money. and then that was not it. So then I ended up switching to accounting, didn't love that. Stayed in the business school, ended up with a business management and economics degree, did a ton of internships to just kind of test stuff out. I'm gonna kinda leave those Aside just because we don't need to get into that laundry list. graduated, worked in a consulting firm doing healthcare consulting. So worked with hospice agencies, home health agencies, mamography and radiol radiology company, one bi biobehavioral health entity, just being a consultant for a couple of years and was like, nah, I'm gonna go to law school. So when I went to law school and I thought I was gonna go to law school to be a prosecutor DA and then Did not like that, so then shifted gears a little bit, clerked for a judge, then I worked for a mentor of mine at a firm that he started up, doing some corporate work, some commercial real estate work, and then was on the board of CBS food program at kind of the right place, right time, and there needed to be some support and the rest of the board asked me to kind of come on and do this and You know, I'd said yes. I have a tendency to say yes to things, and that's kind of where I end up.
speaker-2: Wow, yes. You've been all over the map. thank you for sharing and highlighting your openness to saying yes and how that's gotten to you to where you are today. I heard kind of some murmurs of this, but like was there a time when you're like, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing?
speaker-3: often and regularly actually. I I'm I'm generally of the mind that anything worth doing you should do even before you know all of what it is, right? 'Cause that's the the learning, the growth, the you know, testing, seeing, kind of like what Ashley said, there are s when you start there's so many like finite versions of careers, doctor, lawyer, teacher, cashier. But there are an infinite number of them and they of possible careers. And as we accelerate into the future, there are going to be careers and opportunities and jobs that we can't even think about or ideate in this conversation here. and kind of saying yes to something even, you know, just a little bit before you're ready or know or understand is like huge because it gives you the opportunity A to test something that you may never have known and be to just see if you can do it and if you like it and that'll that curiosity and that energy towards saying yes is where growth comes.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-2: A hundred percent agree. and then Ashley kind of spoke to her through line or her passion. Do you think you've uncovered that for yourself or like your guiding precept through all of this?
speaker-3: I think that at each job post and major and everything along the way, it sort of chiseled out, kind of like building out a sculpture. I loved the space and lane designation that Ashley talked about, right? The education being the space and the ops being the lane. I don't know that I have found my space yet, but I think very much in the sort of ops space. It's I'm enjoying it at this fold, right? In the in the legal career it's very much, you know, reading, writing, reading, writing, you know, a little bit of consulting on, you know, giving advice on how to navigate something. And it's nice to be able to, you know, read something, write something, give an opinion, say, Hey, this is what I think you should do. And then the part that I didn't love was the part where it was incumbent on somebody else to do the thing. Right. That was in my consulting space and my legal space. It was a lot of here's what I think you should do and here's why. And then it was incumbent on somebody else to do the thing. in this role, it's very much like I have to do the thing. People give me inputs, you know, my staff is wonderful, you know, they have the expertise more than I do. so listening, learning, understanding, and then kind of making those decisions and taking the action is the piece that I've in the last couple of years realized is much more my lane. Right now that space is food service and combating childhood food insecurity and I like it and I am It is an incredibly important and complicated issue that I believe if resolved will have, you know, orders of magnitude extra impact for all kinds of other folks in other spaces, right? I think I'm gonna be self-aggrandizing a little bit, but I think it'd be probably beneficial for Ashley and her work in the college access space if there are a panoply more of, you know, early childhood centers that are properly feeding their kids, properly educating and developing kids. If Philadelphia can become the best place to be and raise a child, there will be a a larger pool of people going to Minds Matter of Philadelphia to seek that access to that higher education in that college space. Same thing for workforce development and onward and onward and onward. So I think it's a fun space as of right now and it might be my space long term.
speaker-2: Amazing. So really saying yes and does this feel right and am I passionate about this? Could I see myself doing it? That's kind of been your your guiding precept.
speaker-3: Yeah. I'd say curiosity is big.
speaker-2: Yeah. All right. So moving forward a little bit, the plot twist. So what's something that felt like a setback that actually became a turning point?
speaker-3: I could
speaker-2: Quite a bit. Okay, sure, yeah.
speaker-3: so like I said, I entered college wanting to be a finance major and do the, you know, Wall Street investment banking thing. And at Penn State there was a GPA requirement to get the finance degree. And unfortunately I did not meet that GPA requirement. So they that decision was ultimately said to me, Hey, you can't get this finance degree, you're gonna have to find something else. and at the time that felt quite crippling, right? It was the kind of idea of myself that I had for a couple of years through college and something that I had worked towards and felt like a setback. Like somebody else was telling me I couldn't do the thing I wanted to do. and part of me was motivated to try to find another way. And what ended up happening was less that I found another way to become an investment banker, but I found a path that was probably more closely aligned with who I truly am and put me on a better direction to, you know, something better and different. I don't know that I would be sitting in this chair had I had my GPA requirement met.
speaker-2: So at the time it felt heartbreaking, but it really ended up leading you to to somewhere better. An interesting point, Ashley.
speaker-1: I think we all probably have our stories of, you know, the college major failed tests. Like I have those too. But I think just to parallel off of what Jonathan's saying, working in the nonprofit space, sometimes you are impacted by decisions that happen layers and levels and worlds well above you. so you know, I have had the unfortunately reality of having my jobs that I've loved and enjoyed be disrupted by policy changes. So for example, that school that I taught at many years ago was shut down in a restructuring by the school district of Philadelphia, which required me to think like, what is my next step? If that school hadn't shut down, I was comfy and cozy, I I probably would have sat there for a little bit longer and taught seventh grade math and science. fast forward a couple of years later and I was working in an organization that lost funding due to changes in in you know federal grant the federal grant landscape. And as part of losing that funding, we had to cut our headcount. And so positions, including the one that I was sitting in at the time, got written out of the budget. And so I think in the nonprofit space specifically, and it happens in the corporate space when there are reductions and you know, when people get removed from budgets and teams for budgeting reasons. I think those oper those can be seen as opportunities to give you a chance to force you to try something new and force you to put yourself out there and see what there is. I don't think I would still be teaching in Southwest Philadelphia now, but I do think that that moment of having our school be consolidated and shut down pushed me. to step into the school admin space maybe a little sooner than I felt confident and ready for, which I think ultimately did shape my trajectory, stepping into that sort of education and operations lane a little earlier than maybe I was ready for, maybe I knew about, but it's turned out okay.
speaker-2: Yeah. So how did you navigate that feeling, like forces outside your control that you need to push through and stay open, but also your heartbroken at the time. So how how do you get through that?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think relying on your network of people and and the supports that that network offers. So in in both of those experiences, there were both sort of institutional supports that I could leverage. so you know, support with interview prep and and resume transition type of things, but also sort of the friends and community and network that I had built along the way. So having friends who know people, who know people who are hiring, who are willing to connect you to new people when they know that you're in this situation like that, is is I think one of the most important and beneficial things to do. but I think that there also has to be a level of confidence and and humility and and being willing to say like, hey, this thing happened to me and it kind of stinks and I'm a little bit sad about it, but like let you know, where can I go from here? What's out there? What should I know? Who should I know? What should I be thinking? a lot of times you can rely on your network to, you know, while you're having your feels, they can push you in the direction that you need to get started.
speaker-2: Okay, yeah. And then on on the latter token, has anybody ever told you something you were excited about was a mistake?
speaker-3: Mm-hmm. honestly, I think I can't think of specific instances, but I'm hard pressed to say no. I think that there have been, mostly because the the path that you chart for yourself and the life that you create for yourself is like truly gonna be whole your wholly your own and like Nobody's gonna be able to see it in the way that you see it or experience it in the way that you see it. So there are going to be times when you're gonna get jazzed up about something and somebody's gonna say, no, that's not gonna work, or you know, you're not gonna be able to do X, Y, or Z. and kind of to Ash's point about you know, honing in on your network and you know, friends, family, support, community, like a hundred percent reach out, connect, they're gonna be supports in those cases. And also know that everybody is coming to it with their own kind of frame of reference. So they're gonna be super helpful in downtimes and then in the things you're excited about, like they also might be A little bit negative, Nancy. Sometimes that comes from a place of, you know, worry and, you know, concern and wanting the best for you. And sometimes that comes from a a lack of kind of understanding the full scope of what you're experiencing. But yeah, I think definitely there have been probably myriad of instances where people have kind of rained on a parade of something I was excited about.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think for me, a specific instance that comes to mind is a job that I was really excited about and interested in and made it really far in the application process. and then like it just you know. there was a lot of delay between emails and the thing that they promised would be coming didn't come. And I think having someone with sort of neutral eyes was like they're throwing up a lot of red flags right now and you're so excited that you're missing them. And so right now is when, you know, they should be putting their best foot forward. They're trying to hire you. And they're not doing a great job getting that to the finish line at this point. And so You're not seeing that because you're excited. But would it, you know, if you were to get this job and lock it in and move it forward, is that the type of environment that you would, you know, do you like working in an environment where someone tells you they're gonna do something and then three weeks later they haven't? And so having someone from the outside who wasn't excited about that job, be like waving red flags and and pointing to my values of, you know. You like when people are responsive. You like when people follow up. And right now they're not doing that. allowed me to actually s sort of step back and be like, you know, on paper, this is a perfect role for me. In practice, they're right that, you know, this isn't working out in a way that I would be excited about actually stepping into this role. and so I think I totally agree with Jonathan where it's sometimes people cheering you on, sometimes it's people being a little bit negative Nancy. But sometimes there's also an aspect of people just having a clear set of eyes because they don't have the emotional investment that you do and whatever's happening, which has been really helpful for me.
speaker-2: Yeah, you it it's hard to remember sometimes that you're interviewing them as well. Right. And especially coming out of high school or college, your first job, you're not necessarily gonna be thinking about it that as much, but it is it is a good thing to have top of mind.
speaker-3: Definitely real, especially if you right, like if it's something that you thought was gonna be great on paper or you know, coming out of college, first job, it's like I need this. And yeah I don't want to discount, you know, bringing in an income or taking a step, like those things are important, but also sometimes having a neutral to be like, I I understand you might feel like you need this, but do you want all of this that's coming with it? Yeah.
speaker-2: so Jonathan, you've had some pretty stark pivots in your career. Did anybody give you permission to pivot or or was that you?
speaker-3: The most recent pivot I got permission and it gonna sound just kind of like I don't know soppy or whatever, but I, you know, I I liked the firm that I was at. It was, you know, a good stable job and there is a certain kind of clout that comes with being a lawyer, I guess. But when I was asked if I wanted to take this role, I called my mom and was like, hey, I know that I just went through three years of law school that I'm like sitting on all this debt that you know I did a clerkship and you know went through the kind of trials and tribulations of trying to get my start in a legal career that I spent a lot of time putting together, but there's this thing and I I don't know. Like I think I wanna do it, but w and it would it be okay? I don't know that I said it as like, hey, would it be okay? But it was sort of like what are your thoughts? and sort of getting the, you know, we got you kind of response was like, okay, like I know that even if this thing goes horribly, horribly wrong, which thank goodness it has not, but even with the like possibility of things going horribly, horribly wrong, that you know, the the people that loved me and cared for me most were at least gonna still be there. regardless of the title or career or job that I had. So yeah, for this last one I definitely kinda got permission.
speaker-1: It's interesting, that you frame your current role as sort of maybe outside of lawyering. because being a school ops person, I know a sliver about food service. And I also happen to know that it is one of the most compliance and regulations driven industries you could ever be in. so I would say I think you're lawyering. It you know, you maybe aren't standing in a courtroom with a judge. but I think you're lawyering for sure.
speaker-3: I think that that's very much true. And back to kind of the point that I made earlier, is like kind of jumping in before you know totally if you're gonna be Yeah. Like I I knew that there was a a regulated space here. I knew that there was gonna be some level of lawyering and I still get to do it on a pretty consistent basis. My team here, especially, you know, some of the the leadership folks, whenever I really gotta get into it, I'm like, I'm going into lawyer John mode and they're Okay, door close, look we'll see you in a couple hours like us. But yeah, no, it's it's didn't know it at the time, but it's still a lot of lawyering type things.
speaker-2: Look at that support permission right here on the call. All right. So jobs that didn't fit. Students often think if I choose the wrong job, I've ruined my future. What what does that statement bring up for you guys? Is that true?
speaker-1: I don't think it is. I think if you choose a job that isn't the best fit, then you've just learned something about yourself. I think that, you know, if you didn't know, now you do. And as you look for your next role or navigate your next thing, you've now learned a lesson. I think though that the the push and And you know, where you can cause yourself some challenges is how you navigate once you realize, like, this isn't this isn't the best fit for me. I don't love this. This doesn't feel right. That's okay, but what you do from there matters. Like I think it's important for you to exit yourself from those situations gracefully and respectfully and in a way that maintains relationships and maintains connections. Like you don't want to burn down the house as you leave. Like leave the house in a good space and just say that's not the house that I want to be in. and so I think and then and then just remember moving forward what it was that didn't feel like the right fit so that you learn from that in your next job.
speaker-2: Totally agree.
speaker-3: mimic that completely. I think the only addition that I have is if you in a job, don't like it, not a right fit, need to leave. Respectfully, hugely important. Not burning bridges, like don't burn the whole house down. that's super important. The kind of add-on that I would have is You will learn something from everything, even the bad opportunities. Figure out how to describe or communicate the thing you learned from the bad opportunity. Kind of for twofold. One, it'll help in any next decision, like, I didn't like this about that. So, you know, I didn't like, you know, in the clerkship that's a lot of just like solitary sitting reading writing, sitting, reading, writing, not a ton of like inter human interaction. So I knew that, you know, I liked it for some reasons. The part that I didn't like was the lack of human interaction. And I knew that whatever I was going to do next needed to have a little bit more conversation with people. And then being able to describe it both for myself and my purposes and also to potential future employer, potential different path of like, hey, I did this. Here's actually why it didn't work and what I learned from that and why I, you know, shifted this way.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-2: Ashley, what's the worst job you've had and what has it taught you? What did it teach you?
speaker-1: The worst job that I had. so the the worst job that I ever had was actually in high school. I worked at a pizza stand at the Great New York State Fair, and I am not a food service lady. but I was like 17, so that doesn't really count. I would say the hardest job that I've ever had, though, was teaching. and I think the thing that it taught me. is I'm not gonna call it the worst because it certainly wasn't the worst, but it was absolutely the hardest. what it taught me is that I've always been someone who when you put the effort in, you get the outcomes. So you put 10 hours into writing a paper as a college senior and you get a really good grade on that paper, or you study really long and you're at the library and you get a good grade on your midterm. Like You know, as a student, what you put in is very frequently what you get out. As a teacher, that is not the case. And that is really hard to reconcile. So I could spend three hours writing a lesson plan, but if a mouse runs across the back table or like it rains and the ceiling leaks, or like any other silly thing that can happen in a classroom, like that three hours, I've lost it. Right. The day like that lesson failed. And that was really, really hard for me. and then on the flip side of that, there were days where I threw a lesson together in 20 minutes and I was like, this ain't gonna be a good day. And then it was, and that's even more puzzling. so I really like to be in roles where what you put in, the effort and the energy that you put in immediately comes back. And when you're teaching, there is so much that impacts that. That it's it's it was hard for me to feel consistently successful as a teacher.
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-3: My my turn to my turn to add something to Ashley's piece. So the the teaching, the putting in the how much you put in is how much you get back. I executive director of nonprofit, right? Things are happening, worlds and levels and magnitudes above and beyond. I feel like sometimes the skills that you learned in being able to be like, Hey, I worked really hard on this lesson plan, it didn't work. translate directly to a hey, I worked really hard on this grant and it didn't come through, or I kind of tossed this, you know, thing together real quick and it turned out to be a super fruitful, you know, endeavor, kind of might have built out that skill set for being able to handle it in the nonprofit space.
speaker-1: True.
speaker-3: So even even kind of the hardest moments in careers can translate out to the skills that are beneficial later on. I don't know that I've had a a worse job, kind of same idea that everything's got something worth learning.
speaker-2: I don't know if stayed somewhere longer than you should have. And like how did you know when to leave?
speaker-3: did I stay somewhere longer than I should have and how did I know to leave? the first consulting gig that I had out of school, I stayed a little bit longer. It was a little bit more complicated because I also had the law school thing coming down the pike. So I was like I was not particularly happy in the first year, learned a bunch, there was You know, definitely benefits. And then in the second, I spent a whole extra year there when I probably could have been doing a whole bunch of other stuff. And it was more of just a kind of punching a time clock. Luckily, in some weird kind of turn of events, I got a little bit more responsibility in that second year, kind of learned a bit more, found some things that I liked about it. so was able to kind of find some good in it. but in the You know, I've decided I don't want to be a consultant and I wanna be a lawyer phase. I probably spent an extra year longer than I might have needed to to to do that. But I think long and short, I'm a believer in kind of failing fast, quote unquote. Like if something's not if something's not working, you're kinda gonna know. And don't burn any bridges, don't burn the house down, but better to be like, no, this isn't it and then leave. My law school was very much I tried to treat it like a residency program where every semester I did an internship in a different kind of field practice of law. And I worked at this like small personal injury lawyer and I was working on a case about a painting and an outback that fell on somebody and they wanted to know if they could sue the outback for the painting fault and I was just like, No, no, this I don't wanna I don't wanna have to research this ever again in my whole life. So I left that one too.
speaker-1: There's a term in education. I don't I've never left education, so I don't know if other people say it, but for me it's my driver of if I'm somewhere too long and it's the the Sunday scaries. And so depending for me, I know when I'm in a place that's not the right fit fit for me, depending on how scary my Sunday nights are. And so if Sunday night I'm like, I don't want to go there tomorrow. I have to do long if I am dreading Monday morning, if I have serious Sunday scries, that is become a signal for me that something is off. And maybe it's just temporary. Maybe I'm working on a project that I'm not excited about. But if the Sunday scaries are getting worse and longer and persisting, then that is something that I've really learned to listen to in myself. thankfully in this job and my most recent jobs, my Sundays are not scary anymore. I don't sort of dread Monday morning. I Sunday night I'm not like, I have to go there. and so that's something that I think has been a weather vane for me is just like, how scary is your Sunday night? And if it's if it's consistently scary, then whatever you're doing on Monday morning maybe ain't for you for some reason or another.
speaker-2: I like that a lot. All right. I think I know the answer to this one for Jonathan. Would you say your career was built more by planning or by saying yes?
speaker-3: Definitely definitely say yes. And I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna be the flag bearer of that for as long as I can be. Just there's so much out there. There's so much we don't know possibilities in terms of jobs, careers, impacts. Just there's billions and billions of different ways to live a life and it's impossible for me in this call or any person in their own finite world to think of all those possibilities. So saying yes to stuff just opens more doors and windows and paths and all the cool stuff.
speaker-1: I don't think it is saying yes or planning. I think for me it's I always say I've I've just stumbled into a path that has worked well for me. Whenever people say, like, where do you see yourself in 10 years? I'm like, I don't know, because I didn't see myself here 10 years ago. But I think knowing what you like, what you're interested in, what you're good at has always led me to the right places. and pushing myself to take on new responsibilities and step into roles where I know that I'm gonna grow and learn new things has also sort of been my guiding principles in my path. But I certainly have to
speaker-2: Challenges. Yeah. how important have relationships been?
speaker-1: for me, really, really important. I in my last couple of roles, I d have have not really managed, directly managed people. So like, you know, I didn't really have to write many performance reviews. I didn't have to like I was managing work and I was managing projects and I was managing what people did, but not like their job in a lot of ways. and so to get people to work and and do good work when you're not like writing their annual review, it all r relies on late relationships and them feeling like, you know what, you know, I feel connected to this. I I want to follow up, I respect what she's asking, and that's all relationship driven. In this role, I don't have a single employee. Every single person that works for me is a volunteer. And so at any moment they could be like, I just don't want to volunteer with you anymore. Right. Like they're not like, I really need a paycheck. I have to put up with this for another month, or, you know, I can't afford to lose this job. At any moment they could all be like, I've had enough of this. And so in my current role, because everyone is a volunteer, it is entirely relationship and support driven. which I you know, I I have that experience as the project manager and and the person who is directing everyone's work, even though I'm not your direct boss. but this job really sort of ramped it up another another notch. The best way to get people to believe in you and do the things that need to be done and that you want them to do is for them to feel connected to you, not for them to feel like you're gonna write them up or you're gonna give them a bad review or you know, you're gonna give them some consequence, whatever that is. Like that is not the most effective strategy. It's really having them believe in you and trust you and, you know, for lack of a better term, like want to make you happy and and build back that relationship with you.
speaker-2: Yeah, not leading with the fear. Yeah. Go ahead.
speaker-3: So in your role, actually, you know, obviously there's not like employees or reports or anything, but I'm assuming that there are times where some of the volunteers or some of the connections that you have are, you know, maybe doing something that isn't exactly in line with vision or purpose or, you know, wasn't done to a certain standard. Like how do you navigate keeping right having that relationship not just based in kind of Propping somebody up but being able to provide sort of constructive criticism to also meet your ends 'cause obviously you have a mission to accomplish.
speaker-1: Yeah. And so in my specific role, I feel responsible to then if if someone's not doing the thing the way the thing should or needs to be done, providing the support or structure for them to do it. So, you know, maybe they are Creating a a plan that the plan doesn't isn't comprehensive enough. So maybe I can give them a shell of a plan and have them fill in the details and and do some co-thinking and co-planning with them. and so I think that's when I think about myself as like an ops and a project manager person, that continues to come through because the job of an ops project manager person is to get other people to do their jobs well. And sometimes that means stepping in really close to them and giving them a tool, giving them a resource, or helping them co think. And sometimes it means stepping away from them and trusting that they've got it. And it that's the same with working with volunteers.
speaker-3: Well we always learn from people that we chat with.
speaker-2: Totally. Yeah, this is a great matchup today. so to bring it full circle, talking about pressure, students often feel like they need to have it figured out by eighteen or twenty-two or graduation. When did you realize that's simply not true?
speaker-3: Hard to pinpoint a moment, but also I you know I can say definitively I have no idea what I want to be when I grow up and you know, here I am at this point. So I I hope that at least there's a little bit of a credence in that that you can listen to this and say that, you know, he seemed to do okay and still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up, so it's probably okay that I don't have all of the answers.
speaker-1: I have the exact same answer of I still don't think I've figured it out. I don't think like figuring it out is a a checkbox you make. it's a lifelong process that sometimes brings you in different ways. I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I don't think that I'm a grown up yet sometimes. and I still don't think I have things figured out. But like Jonathan said, like I'm doing all right and you know, do important work and and make a big impact for for students and families. but I don't have it all figured out.
speaker-3: Yeah. Yeah Ashley, do you ever have those moments where you're just like, When are the grown ups gonna show up? Yeah.
speaker-1: Who put me in charge here?
speaker-0: I am the grown-up.
speaker-1: Yeah. I am the grown-up, yeah, exactly.
speaker-2: Well what would you tell someone who's afraid, terrified of making the wrong choice?
speaker-1: There are few choices that you can make that you can't just make a different choice. And so give it a try. You know, there there's there are very few things that you do that you're locked in forever. So worst thing you do is you learn that that's not for you and make a different choice.
speaker-3: I like to think of it in kind of buckets. All of your choices are either hat choices, haircut choices, or tattoo choices. Your hat choices, you can change your hat any day. You can you can change in the middle of a day. You don't even have to wear a hat. You can make mistakes on you can wear a bad hat. You walk out, your friends like, Don't wear that hat again. And you're like, All right, man, this is not for me moving on. Your haircut choices, okay, maybe it'll be that's probably where a lot of the fear really is, right? It's if I get a bare haircut, like this is gonna look bad for two weeks, three weeks, a month until it, you know, grows back. That's usually your job career stuff. Like that's really where that is. Like if it's a wrong it's a haircut choice. It's just like growing out your hair again. You know, I wanted to buzz my hair, I didn't. I don't know if that was the right decision or not, but you know, I can decide later if I wanna buzz my hair or not. I would spend a lot of time on the tattoo choices though. a job and a career is not a tattoo choice. But I you know, probably like life partner kind of things, if that's a choice that you wanna make is probably a tattoo choice. the people that you surround yourself and connect with, like you continuity of relationships, those are more tattooed like if you have good people in your life and you cultivate good relationships, those are going to be lifelong, those are gonna be your tattoo choices and those are gonna have, you know, higher impact than what the job or career or, you know, major or whatever the case is. Those are Majors are and jobs are haircuts. The people that you choose to include in your life and to be included in theirs are those are gonna be your tattoos and focus on those.
speaker-2: That is a fantastic anecdote to round us out, Jonathan. So thank you so much. We're going to do a little rapid fire to finish out this session. So First job.
speaker-1: Working at the New York State fair and the food stand.
speaker-3: I was a busboy for a local restaurant here.
speaker-2: Biggest surprise.
speaker-3: In career or in life?
speaker-2: it geared to a career, but if you wanna go life you can. Slow fire here. Dream job at eighteen.
speaker-3: President of the United States.
speaker-1: Pediatrician.
speaker-2: Okay. Dream job now.
speaker-3: CEO executive director of CPS food program.
speaker-1: Minds matter executive director, but I still don't know what I wanna be when I grow up. So who knows?
speaker-2: One word that describes your career path.
speaker-1: Mission driven. That's two. But it's hyphenated.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-3: Non linear.
speaker-2: Okay. All right. Finish these sentences. I wish I had known.
speaker-3: It's gonna be okay.
speaker-1: That's a good one. It'll all work out.
speaker-2: I almost quit when
speaker-1: I failed chemistry two seven.
speaker-3: I accidentally wired money to the wrong bank account in one of my first transactions as a lawyer.
speaker-2: jeez.
speaker-3: Yeah, that's a fun story for a different time. It got corrected, everything was okay, but it was it it was a tough day.
speaker-2: geez. the best opportunity I never planned for was
speaker-3: Running a mission driven organization that helps to provide meals to five thousand five hundred kids every single day?
speaker-1: Staying in education after only doing a two year program that brought me there.
speaker-2: Okay. Success started when I stopped.
speaker-1: Thinking I had to be perfect.
speaker-3: Trying to do it alone success is in the agency of others.
speaker-2: Great. Students should give themselves permission to
speaker-1: Have fun and fail at things.
speaker-3: Be scared, but do it anyway.
speaker-2: Fantastic. so imagine every student today is listening and is worried about falling behind. You have one minute, what's the message you want them to remember? So kind of wrapping up the entire conversation.
speaker-1: For me, I think that where you end up is gonna be more an a reflection of, you know, who you meet and how you carry yourself and the mindset you have about yourself and and your confidence, your willingness to fail and try new things and get up and try again, than it is going to be making your way through some imaginary checklist that you believe you need to make your way through. it's Success is more of a web and a network than it is a road or a path that you're gonna walk on.
speaker-2: Love it.
speaker-3: Mine's gonna be a little nerdy, but Isaac Newton's law, an object in motion will stay in motion, object at rest will stay at rest. Timelines are they're constructed in our own heads, they're put on us by other people, they're not real. The only way that you fall behind is if you stop moving. If you stop trying, if you stop doing, if you stop being curious, if you stop learning, stop connecting an object in motion will remain in motion. So if you keep at it, you're not falling behind, you're just moving.
speaker-2: Yes, yes, yes. Well thank you so much, Ashley McGrath from Minds Matter Philadelphia, and Jonathan Shahar from CBS Food Program. Students, if today's conversation taught us anything, it's that careers aren't built by having a perfect plan. They're built by saying yes, by staying curious, by learning from mistakes, by trusting yourself enough to take the next step. Your career doesn't have to make sense looking forward. Most of the time it only makes sense looking back. Thank you so much for joining us on Access Co Leaders Summer Leadership Series. We'll see you next time.
