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Welcome to the Tutu Thin Podcast.
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My name is Dawn Smith Theodore, as you all know.
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Thank you for being a listener.
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And today I have a colleague of mine who I've worked with for many years, and she now lives in Oregon.
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She was a dietitian when I first met her, and now she's a therapist.
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So she does both and works with eating disorders.
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So she has a lot of information to share with us today.
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And I'm so pleased to have her here.
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So welcome, Jackie.
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Jackie Millar.
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Yeah, thank you.
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Thank you so much, Don.
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It's so great to be here.
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So Jackie and I started, she was working at the EDCC when I what became the clinical director there.
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And so tell us a little bit about what led you to be a dietitian.
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Because when I first met you, you were in school then to be a therapist.
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I know, I know.
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I was just thinking that.
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And you helped me with my internship.
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Like you, you really helped me evolve into the therapist that I am today.
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That's wild to think.
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Um, but dietitian-wise, yeah, I was thinking about this.
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It was really um a culmination of my own lived experience, I think, of having a disordered relationship with food and exercise, right?
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So there's that.
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And then I took a nutrition class in undergraduate.
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At that time, I was going to the University of Montana.
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And the the teacher, the professor was so phenomenal.
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And that was it.
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That was it.
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I was hooked.
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I was like, I am doing this.
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And then I uh moved to Idaho where I did like the coordinated program in dietetics.
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And I was a dietitian for many years, loved it.
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Um, but I was a clinical dietitian.
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I worked in the hospital first.
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So I was in like trauma one hospital in Northridge in California.
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And that's really where I cut my teeth, right?
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Like I learned so much that was so helpful for me working in the field of eating disorders, how to interpret labs, you know, kind of um how to see past both, like really when to know what is a trauma, what isn't a trauma.
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Um, and then I transitioned fully into just being a full-time eating disorder dietitian.
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So, what made you go to eating disorders?
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I think it was, I knew I always wanted to do that.
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It it was the lived experience of me trying to figure out my own stuff, you know, and not having anybody there to help me, right?
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You know, and feeling like um I didn't know how to have a good relationship with food.
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And I used exercise to really uh mitigate my relationship with food, right?
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Like so I became really, really obsessed with exercise and did not have a good relationship with my body during that period of time at all, you know.
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Tell me because you've worked with a lot of athletes also when you were a dietitian.
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So talk to me about, you know, your work with eating disorders, athletes, and you know, being a dietitian.
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I know that especially at EDCC, when we worked together, um, we definitely saw some pretty high-level um athletes and in my private practice uh saw some very high-level athletes that were just, I mean, they were just next level, right?
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Like they, I remember this one that I worked with would literally, she worked out all day, Dawn.
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She was constantly training for her sport.
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And when you work with people at that level, it really becomes convoluted.
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Like, is this an eating disorder or is this like, are you training to be an Olympic athlete?
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Right, you know, and so I really had to learn how to shift my perspective a little bit from like being this very like fixed and rigid, okay, this is an eating disorder, and you have to eat this many calories.
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And um, I I really had to shift and learn how to work with high-level athletes, um, which I will say is it's a different vibe for sure.
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But um, the one thing that holds true is that you have to, you have to know your body and you have to fuel your body, right?
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You know, when I work with dancers, it's always like fuel your body because you're working it out all day long.
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So it needs more fuel than an average person.
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And then on top of it, it's like you want longevity.
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And so it's the bones and all of the things that uh, you know, are impacted when you don't eat enough.
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Oh, it's for sure.
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I mean, and you probably have some of the, I even have some.
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I have arthritis in my knees, right?
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From running.
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And you probably, I was thinking, like, have some of the side effects or the consequences of under-eating while being an athlete or being, you know, a dancer.
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And that's the thing that kids, you know, young athletes just don't get, or or, you know, people with eating disorders at a young age, they don't understand how this is going to impact their body in the future.
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And I promise you, it always does.
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It always does.
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Does it be a good thing?
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When you're under eating, when you're under-eating and you're overexercising, and it really metabolically screws you up.
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It's like the worst thing you can do to your metabolism.
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And I sort of came to find that out years and years later, honestly, uh, because I developed reactive hypoglycemia.
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And um, that was not fun.
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That was not fun, you know?
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And all of this is to do from my dieting history, you know, from my history of over-exercising and under eating, undernourishing myself.
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So when you were doing that, were you getting help?
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No.
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Was I getting help?
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I had to think about that.
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No, uh-uh.
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No, and I was sort of like, um, I would say I was my own help, right?
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Like I didn't go to a treatment center, I didn't do that.
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Um, I found my way through journaling.
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Like I journaling was my godsend.
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That was the way that I could process my emotions.
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And and honestly, it just stopped working for me.
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I f I just got to that place of crazy where I was like, what I am doing is no longer working for me and it's not serving me.
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And I just stopped exercise, cold turkey, which, you know, some people I don't recommend that for everybody, but for me, that's what I had to do.
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I had to have complete abstinence from it for a period of time.
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And then when I got back into it, I was so much more measured and balanced and healthy about it.
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I did work with a trainer, and that did help.
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Um, because you know, that person was there to be like, okay, this is what I need you to eat.
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Like that person, she was so great because she would be like, You got to eat more protein, you got to eat this, you got to eat that.
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And I was like, What?
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You know, and um, yeah.
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It's you know, it's interesting, it's everything in extremes, um, you know, exercise in extreme.
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And I think that you brought up an important point because it's like when you're working with high-level athletes or professional dancers, they are that is their job, and so they're training all the time.
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And so that is there's nothing wrong with that, but it is just making sure you're fueling your body, you know.
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I think that's the most important thing because you can't, you know, you and I, we've probably had this discussion a million times that we're not here to talk somebody out of their job, right?
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Like we've worked with actresses, you know, and actors, and you know, um, even the pressure on them to maintain a certain figure or a certain size is just insane, right?
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Um, and so our job is not necessarily to talk them out of it, but to show them this is how we do it on a healthy level, you know, um, and it can be done.
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It can be done, right?
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Okay, so and and you know, and that's the thing I always loved about working with you is that there are different ways to look at things.
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Not everybody has to go to treatment, not everybody has to do it a certain way.
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And so help for eating disorder should be individualized and to look at the individual person.
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Um, and so I I appreciate that about you.
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Jackie and I worked together on a TV show that we did called Starving Secrets.
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Um, and you know, we worked with the clients on uh they were at the treatment center where we worked, but we would see the clients and then they would film us working with them.
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And um, which was kind of stressful.
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Yeah, oh yeah, it was and it was yes, it was.
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It was really weird, it was hard, but yeah.
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But you know, we were just talking about a client that we saw during that time that actually got better and is doing really well, you know.
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So, and that's what this is all about.
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Um, I want to know about what made you then go to be a therapist because you're like one-stop shopping.
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I know it's so funny.
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I think I had always wanted to be a therapist, if I'm if I'm honest.
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I think that's really what my true calling was, and I just didn't know it at the time.
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But it's like it's truly it's working with people like you and people like Carolyn and having these amazing mentors in my life and seeing the the positive impact that you had on people.
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I wanted to do that.
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I wanted to help them effectuate change.
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Being the dietitian, you're kind of the lowest person on the totem pole, as you know.
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It's like I was not always loved, right?
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I was not the the most popular play uh person on the treatment team.
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Well, I would say you weren't the lowest person on the totem pole, but you were probably the most disliked because you're the person going to head to head.
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And I think dietitians have the hardest job because you're going to head to head with the eating disorder.
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You're having to make people do something they don't want to do.
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They want to get better, but they don't want to eat their food.
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No, and we would take them on restaurant outings where they would be negotiating with us.
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And meanwhile, we've got like, you know, celebrities over in the corner.
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It was so funny.
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It'd be like, oh, it's Kristen Bale, you know, he's like, as I'm negotiating with a client to eat like half of her salmon, you know.
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Um, and it was hard.
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That was really hard.
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It is truly hard work, but on both sides, like you can see the pain, right, in the client.
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Like, and I remember that's the one thing that I feel like we did really well is harm reduction.
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Like you brought up that idea of individualized treatment.
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You and I would come up with these just so maybe some people thought they were outrageous, you know, like letting somebody exercise while they were on, you know, on a high calorie meal plan or something like that.
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We would really meet people where they were at.
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And um, I think that's makes all the difference in somebody's recovery journey.
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I'm sure of it.
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Like having a fixed and rigid sort of approach, a one size fits all, like you get three 30-minute walks per week or whatever, you know, it doesn't work for everybody, you know, and that's what we did well.
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Yeah, I think that's true.
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And we you have to you have to really look at where where this person's come from and what are they looking for as they move forward and how do we get them there, you know?
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And I mean, most clients that have anorexia don't really want to gain the weight, you know.
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So it is that being able to find something that means more to them than their eating disorder on both sides: anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating.
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So now you you've been a clinical director, you've moved on, you've and um and now you do private practice in Oregon.
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Yeah.
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I have a little private practice, and I still see clients of all ages um of eating disorders.
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Um, I work with teens, I've worked with younger children, even like, you know, we see a lot of like RFID presentation, which is not something that you and I necessarily did together because it didn't we didn't have a diagnosis for it at that time, right?
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But um doing that sort of exposure therapy stuff with young, younger elementary school age children.
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Um, and then you know, I I love my teens.
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I love working with teens.
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I can't help it.
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Teens and like college students, they just they keep me young.
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That's all I can say.
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Yeah, I love teens and college students.
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Like I um they're my favorite because I it, you know, it's interesting.
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It reminds me of PHP, IOP, and outpatient.
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You're transitioning people through the different steps of treatment into life, and I think teens and college age, there's they're going through a lot of transitions.
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Transition from high school to college, transition from college to life.
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And those are not easy transitions.
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No, and they're ripe for like an eating disorder development, right?
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All of those transitions.
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And like you said, we need to help them find something that is more meaningful in their life to grab onto, you know, other than the eating disorder.
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And that's that's where the work is, especially at those ages.
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Like, you know, you're young, you've got your whole life ahead of you.
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What do you want to do?
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What like what inspires you?
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What encourages you?
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And to see people get inspired in treatment was like, that was the funnest part of my job.
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I loved it, you know, people leaving, like, you know, coming in and being like such a shell of their former selves.
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And then by the time they would leave treatment, they would be this fully embodied, inspired in in the best cases.
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But I would say, like, we had good outcomes.
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Yeah, we did have good outcomes.
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Um, you know, I mean, I guess there were some some some clients that didn't always make it through, let's be honest, right?
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But we really did.
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I mean, it was like it was great, inspiring, fun, energizing, hard work, you know.
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Um yeah.
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And so I don't know, it's it's always gonna be um something that I I do.
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And now I've like I've I did a lot of study in um somatic practices in the last probably like five, 10 years.
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And that has also been a really big game changer in my practice.
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Like Carolyn, you know, I mean, she would be like, What's going on with your foot?
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Why are you tapping your foot like that?
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You know, she would notice things like that, and I would be like, What is she talking about?
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You know, but now um the mind-body connection is so a part of what I bring.
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It's so right.
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Like, I mean, it's the most important thing.
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The people who listen to my podcast prior here, tired of hearing me say this, but I always say the elevator's gotta stop at all the floors.
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It can't just be up in the penthouse, which is where the eating disorder lives.
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You know, it's gotta be mind-body connection.
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And for dancers and athletes, there definitely has to be a mind-body connection because you know, it's like the body, you gotta listen to your body.
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You have to.
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And I think like what's interesting about that is that we're sort of taught, maybe I don't, well, I don't know if it's it's still true now, but like, don't you feel like some athletes are taught to not pay attention to their body, to like no pain, no gain, or to work through that pain?
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At least that used to be the philosophy.
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And now, like Lindsay Vaughn, you know, she just had that skiing accident.
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And I was listening to an interview with her doctor, and her doctor was saying something like it, if she feels good, she can ski.
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Like this is when she like supposedly tore her ACL, right?
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And um it was like she's gonna feel if she's ready or not to do the skiing.
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And sure enough, she felt like she could do it, but she had that terrible break.
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Um, she actually, I mean, now they're saying like she almost they almost amputated her leg.
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That's how bad that break was.
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But it was a broken bone, which is, you know, um, but she she has probably that really high level knowing like how far she can push her body, you know, um, where to take it, where to not take it.
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Whereas I would say people with eating disorders, you know, that do the over-exercise in the CrossFit and things like that, not not saying anything negative about CrossFit, but like they, they ignore their cues and they ignore and they work through the pain and they don't um, you know, they don't pay attention to it.
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Like I, you know, I was constantly ignoring the pain in my body, and I'd be like, you know, and you, you and I, we would see clients all the time at in treatment that would have fractures in their foot from running and they wouldn't even know it.
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We'd be like, dude, your foot's broken, and you're running 10 miles a day or whatever.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it is it is being able to listen to your body and know what it needs.
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And we're born with that.
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We're born with this innate sense of like I cry when I'm hungry.
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We know.
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Yeah, and how many people have you worked with over the years who who will say, I don't feel hunger anymore?
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Like, I don't, I don't know where my hunger is, I don't feel it.
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Um, or I don't, I can't feel my fullness.
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And and that's a result of overriding their their internal cues for so long.
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We like train ourselves out of it.
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Yeah, that's the society we live in.
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Yeah.
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And just the now the GLP ones and it's we live in the society where it's focused on how thin are people, you know, and it's really a difficult.
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I think it's difficult for people.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.000
Um, I think it's incredibly hard.
00:19:38.159 --> 00:19:42.639
I mean, what when I was growing up, it was like like that heroin chic, right?
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:56.879
Like we had those the supermodels were like a really a big thing, but this is insane now with the GLP ones because your average normal person can just take one of these and become like anorexic, you know what I'm saying?
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:05.920
Yeah, and and we're just supposed to turn the other, you know, eye, like and not pay attention, not be like, hey, this person is in need of help.
00:20:06.159 --> 00:20:24.319
Yeah, it's it's very much like when whether it's bariatric or it's eating disorders come around because there's an underlying reason, it's not about the food, you know, there's a psychological component to it.
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:34.639
And so if you don't deal with that, whether it's GLP1s or the bariatric surgery or a sleeve or whatever, you're not dealing with why people are doing what they do with their food.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.680
And if it doesn't change, it's gonna happen again.
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:38.240
Correct.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:40.079
That's why diets don't work.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:40.720
Exactly.
00:20:40.879 --> 00:20:42.879
You're just running from the problem, right?
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:54.960
You know, and that's why I think we're seeing some people, some celebrities today that are like, I mean, they they look anorexic to me on the GLP ones, and I'm just thinking, like, what is happening?
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:57.759
You know, that's an eating disorder, right?
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:08.720
Like the the person who can use a GLP one and whatever, restore their metabolism, whatever they're doing, like if they have diabetes, etc., you know, they can stop.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:18.559
But the person who can't stop is, you know, that's the person with the eating disorder who's misusing GLP1, right?
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:19.279
Yeah.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.839
And now everybody can pretty much get them.
00:21:22.639 --> 00:21:28.559
So, Jackie, if people are going to so I don't know.
00:21:28.639 --> 00:21:30.639
Are you still licensed in California?
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:32.000
No, I'm not.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:33.359
I know, it's not silly.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:34.159
I don't know why I didn't.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:35.839
How about for dietary?
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.599
Uh dietary, you don't actually have to be licensed in California.
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.319
I do have to be licensed here in Oregon, though.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:53.839
Um, yeah, and so I'm both a dietitian, I am licensed as a therapist, and I'm a sports certified supervisor as well, as a therapist.
00:21:54.159 --> 00:21:56.960
Yeah, so I don't have my seeds though.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:58.000
I did not get that.
00:21:58.159 --> 00:22:01.759
I was not grandfathered in, which I'm like, oh, I can't believe I didn't do that.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:16.000
But um, I still love working with um interns and associates and training them about eating disorder treatment because as you know, it it it's a different, it's a different vibe, and you gotta know what you're doing.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:16.960
Yes, you do.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:25.839
So sports, you're certified in sports um psychology or not, no, no.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:32.079
What I was was uh I was a personal trainer for many years, and I sort of let that lapse too.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:55.440
Um, because I did, I did work with a lot of athletes at the time, and um now I'm I'm more almost like more trauma-oriented or sensory motor, I would say, like the somatic um approach to healing your relationship with body, food, and weight, you know, like get in touch with what's going on inside and let's talk about it, you know.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.680
That's what I'm doing now.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.200
Um, yeah.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.599
And so how do people reach you?
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:07.039
If you're listening to this and you're in Oregon, and there's a lot of athletes in Oregon.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.399
So yeah.
00:23:08.639 --> 00:23:14.480
So I have a um, I'm at the gathering place, which uh you can Google that.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.920
It's the gatheringplacewl.org.
00:23:18.159 --> 00:23:20.879
And um I have this cute little space there.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.759
We're the oldest building in West Lynn.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.240
Um, sometimes I'm like, are we haunted?
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:27.200
Like, I don't know.
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:28.159
I think we might.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:41.519
I I sometimes wonder about that, but it's a really cool building where I do um individual therapy and we've done some group work there and some fun like Reiki and just some spiritual work as well.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:42.399
Very cool.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.240
And do you have a website?
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:45.359
That is my website.
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:46.079
It's the gathering.
00:23:46.639 --> 00:23:49.039
Yeah, I don't have an individual website.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:55.759
Um, I'm also on creedon.org, which is um the Columbia River Eating Disorder Network.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.599
And I have a profile on there.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:01.680
And I think I have one on psychology today, but yeah, no, I don't have my individual website.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.680
I I started one and then I just, you know, didn't complete it.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.480
Okay, so now you know how to reach Jackie.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.879
And so thank you, Jackie, for being on the podcast.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.480
What a what a pleasure.
00:24:14.639 --> 00:24:17.119
I forget how much I loved working with you.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:22.079
So what a great um gift for me to get to talk to you today.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.759
To the to the listeners of Tutu Thin, thank you so much for being a listener.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:40.159
As always, you can reach me through my website at donteore.com, tututhin.com, mothermeninandme.com, or at my Instagram at uh dawn.smith.theodore.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:41.279
So thank you again.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:42.639
Have a wonderful day.
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:51.359
Welcome to the Tutu Thin Podcast.
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:54.719
My name is Dawn Smith Theodore, as you all know.
00:00:54.879 --> 00:00:56.960
Thank you for being a listener.
00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:04.480
And today I have a colleague of mine who I've worked with for many years, and she now lives in Oregon.
00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.319
She was a dietitian when I first met her, and now she's a therapist.
00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.200
So she does both and works with eating disorders.
00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:15.120
So she has a lot of information to share with us today.
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:17.599
And I'm so pleased to have her here.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:18.879
So welcome, Jackie.
00:01:19.039 --> 00:01:20.239
Jackie Millar.
00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:21.199
Yeah, thank you.
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:22.159
Thank you so much, Don.
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:23.759
It's so great to be here.
00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:31.920
So Jackie and I started, she was working at the EDCC when I what became the clinical director there.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:35.840
And so tell us a little bit about what led you to be a dietitian.
00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:39.280
Because when I first met you, you were in school then to be a therapist.
00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:40.319
I know, I know.
00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:41.280
I was just thinking that.
00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:43.280
And you helped me with my internship.
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:48.960
Like you, you really helped me evolve into the therapist that I am today.
00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:50.640
That's wild to think.
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.879
Um, but dietitian-wise, yeah, I was thinking about this.
00:01:55.120 --> 00:02:04.240
It was really um a culmination of my own lived experience, I think, of having a disordered relationship with food and exercise, right?
00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:05.599
So there's that.
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:09.359
And then I took a nutrition class in undergraduate.
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:13.359
At that time, I was going to the University of Montana.
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:18.560
And the the teacher, the professor was so phenomenal.
00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:19.359
And that was it.
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:19.919
That was it.
00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:20.560
I was hooked.
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.000
I was like, I am doing this.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:27.280
And then I uh moved to Idaho where I did like the coordinated program in dietetics.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:31.199
And I was a dietitian for many years, loved it.
00:02:31.359 --> 00:02:33.599
Um, but I was a clinical dietitian.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:34.960
I worked in the hospital first.
00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:39.439
So I was in like trauma one hospital in Northridge in California.
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:41.840
And that's really where I cut my teeth, right?
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:57.199
Like I learned so much that was so helpful for me working in the field of eating disorders, how to interpret labs, you know, kind of um how to see past both, like really when to know what is a trauma, what isn't a trauma.
00:02:57.519 --> 00:03:04.639
Um, and then I transitioned fully into just being a full-time eating disorder dietitian.
00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:09.039
So, what made you go to eating disorders?
00:03:09.679 --> 00:03:12.239
I think it was, I knew I always wanted to do that.
00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:21.840
It it was the lived experience of me trying to figure out my own stuff, you know, and not having anybody there to help me, right?
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:28.239
You know, and feeling like um I didn't know how to have a good relationship with food.
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:33.919
And I used exercise to really uh mitigate my relationship with food, right?
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:43.679
Like so I became really, really obsessed with exercise and did not have a good relationship with my body during that period of time at all, you know.
00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:49.599
Tell me because you've worked with a lot of athletes also when you were a dietitian.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:59.599
So talk to me about, you know, your work with eating disorders, athletes, and you know, being a dietitian.
00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:16.560
I know that especially at EDCC, when we worked together, um, we definitely saw some pretty high-level um athletes and in my private practice uh saw some very high-level athletes that were just, I mean, they were just next level, right?
00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:23.680
Like they, I remember this one that I worked with would literally, she worked out all day, Dawn.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.199
She was constantly training for her sport.
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:32.560
And when you work with people at that level, it really becomes convoluted.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:37.600
Like, is this an eating disorder or is this like, are you training to be an Olympic athlete?
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:49.840
Right, you know, and so I really had to learn how to shift my perspective a little bit from like being this very like fixed and rigid, okay, this is an eating disorder, and you have to eat this many calories.
00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:02.240
And um, I I really had to shift and learn how to work with high-level athletes, um, which I will say is it's a different vibe for sure.
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:11.360
But um, the one thing that holds true is that you have to, you have to know your body and you have to fuel your body, right?
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:19.760
You know, when I work with dancers, it's always like fuel your body because you're working it out all day long.
00:05:19.840 --> 00:05:23.920
So it needs more fuel than an average person.
00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:27.439
And then on top of it, it's like you want longevity.
00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:36.640
And so it's the bones and all of the things that uh, you know, are impacted when you don't eat enough.
00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:37.680
Oh, it's for sure.
00:05:37.760 --> 00:05:41.120
I mean, and you probably have some of the, I even have some.
00:05:41.200 --> 00:05:43.200
I have arthritis in my knees, right?
00:05:43.280 --> 00:05:44.000
From running.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:54.080
And you probably, I was thinking, like, have some of the side effects or the consequences of under-eating while being an athlete or being, you know, a dancer.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:06:06.319
And that's the thing that kids, you know, young athletes just don't get, or or, you know, people with eating disorders at a young age, they don't understand how this is going to impact their body in the future.
00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:08.480
And I promise you, it always does.
00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:09.840
It always does.
00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:10.480
Does it be a good thing?
00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:17.120
When you're under eating, when you're under-eating and you're overexercising, and it really metabolically screws you up.
00:06:17.200 --> 00:06:21.040
It's like the worst thing you can do to your metabolism.
00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:28.560
And I sort of came to find that out years and years later, honestly, uh, because I developed reactive hypoglycemia.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.200
And um, that was not fun.
00:06:31.520 --> 00:06:33.200
That was not fun, you know?
00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:41.520
And all of this is to do from my dieting history, you know, from my history of over-exercising and under eating, undernourishing myself.
00:06:41.840 --> 00:06:44.640
So when you were doing that, were you getting help?
00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:45.680
No.
00:06:46.400 --> 00:06:47.439
Was I getting help?
00:06:47.520 --> 00:06:48.400
I had to think about that.
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:49.200
No, uh-uh.
00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:56.960
No, and I was sort of like, um, I would say I was my own help, right?
00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:00.080
Like I didn't go to a treatment center, I didn't do that.
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.360
Um, I found my way through journaling.
00:07:03.520 --> 00:07:06.560
Like I journaling was my godsend.
00:07:06.640 --> 00:07:09.840
That was the way that I could process my emotions.
00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:12.720
And and honestly, it just stopped working for me.
00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:21.439
I f I just got to that place of crazy where I was like, what I am doing is no longer working for me and it's not serving me.
00:07:21.520 --> 00:07:31.600
And I just stopped exercise, cold turkey, which, you know, some people I don't recommend that for everybody, but for me, that's what I had to do.
00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:35.360
I had to have complete abstinence from it for a period of time.
00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:40.960
And then when I got back into it, I was so much more measured and balanced and healthy about it.
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.160
I did work with a trainer, and that did help.
00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:49.120
Um, because you know, that person was there to be like, okay, this is what I need you to eat.
00:07:49.280 --> 00:07:54.560
Like that person, she was so great because she would be like, You got to eat more protein, you got to eat this, you got to eat that.
00:07:54.640 --> 00:07:55.840
And I was like, What?
00:07:56.080 --> 00:07:58.160
You know, and um, yeah.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:04.480
It's you know, it's interesting, it's everything in extremes, um, you know, exercise in extreme.
00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:18.640
And I think that you brought up an important point because it's like when you're working with high-level athletes or professional dancers, they are that is their job, and so they're training all the time.
00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:26.160
And so that is there's nothing wrong with that, but it is just making sure you're fueling your body, you know.
00:08:26.960 --> 00:08:37.840
I think that's the most important thing because you can't, you know, you and I, we've probably had this discussion a million times that we're not here to talk somebody out of their job, right?
00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:49.600
Like we've worked with actresses, you know, and actors, and you know, um, even the pressure on them to maintain a certain figure or a certain size is just insane, right?
00:08:50.159 --> 00:09:01.519
Um, and so our job is not necessarily to talk them out of it, but to show them this is how we do it on a healthy level, you know, um, and it can be done.
00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:03.360
It can be done, right?
00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:12.000
Okay, so and and you know, and that's the thing I always loved about working with you is that there are different ways to look at things.
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:17.519
Not everybody has to go to treatment, not everybody has to do it a certain way.
00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:24.799
And so help for eating disorder should be individualized and to look at the individual person.
00:09:25.199 --> 00:09:29.679
Um, and so I I appreciate that about you.
00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:36.559
Jackie and I worked together on a TV show that we did called Starving Secrets.
00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:48.319
Um, and you know, we worked with the clients on uh they were at the treatment center where we worked, but we would see the clients and then they would film us working with them.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.599
And um, which was kind of stressful.
00:09:51.839 --> 00:09:54.240
Yeah, oh yeah, it was and it was yes, it was.
00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.799
It was really weird, it was hard, but yeah.
00:09:57.439 --> 00:10:05.599
But you know, we were just talking about a client that we saw during that time that actually got better and is doing really well, you know.
00:10:05.839 --> 00:10:08.319
So, and that's what this is all about.
00:10:08.719 --> 00:10:16.639
Um, I want to know about what made you then go to be a therapist because you're like one-stop shopping.
00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:18.399
I know it's so funny.
00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.240
I think I had always wanted to be a therapist, if I'm if I'm honest.
00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:28.959
I think that's really what my true calling was, and I just didn't know it at the time.
00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:41.839
But it's like it's truly it's working with people like you and people like Carolyn and having these amazing mentors in my life and seeing the the positive impact that you had on people.
00:10:42.079 --> 00:10:43.120
I wanted to do that.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.319
I wanted to help them effectuate change.
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.480
Being the dietitian, you're kind of the lowest person on the totem pole, as you know.
00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.279
It's like I was not always loved, right?
00:10:53.439 --> 00:10:58.159
I was not the the most popular play uh person on the treatment team.
00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:06.799
Well, I would say you weren't the lowest person on the totem pole, but you were probably the most disliked because you're the person going to head to head.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:12.480
And I think dietitians have the hardest job because you're going to head to head with the eating disorder.
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:15.519
You're having to make people do something they don't want to do.
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.399
They want to get better, but they don't want to eat their food.
00:11:18.959 --> 00:11:23.360
No, and we would take them on restaurant outings where they would be negotiating with us.
00:11:23.439 --> 00:11:27.679
And meanwhile, we've got like, you know, celebrities over in the corner.
00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:28.559
It was so funny.
00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:36.799
It'd be like, oh, it's Kristen Bale, you know, he's like, as I'm negotiating with a client to eat like half of her salmon, you know.
00:11:36.959 --> 00:11:38.000
Um, and it was hard.
00:11:38.079 --> 00:11:39.120
That was really hard.
00:11:39.199 --> 00:11:45.199
It is truly hard work, but on both sides, like you can see the pain, right, in the client.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:50.240
Like, and I remember that's the one thing that I feel like we did really well is harm reduction.
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.679
Like you brought up that idea of individualized treatment.
00:11:54.719 --> 00:12:09.360
You and I would come up with these just so maybe some people thought they were outrageous, you know, like letting somebody exercise while they were on, you know, on a high calorie meal plan or something like that.
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.240
We would really meet people where they were at.
00:12:12.719 --> 00:12:17.519
And um, I think that's makes all the difference in somebody's recovery journey.
00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:18.559
I'm sure of it.
00:12:18.719 --> 00:12:33.039
Like having a fixed and rigid sort of approach, a one size fits all, like you get three 30-minute walks per week or whatever, you know, it doesn't work for everybody, you know, and that's what we did well.
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:34.799
Yeah, I think that's true.
00:12:34.959 --> 00:12:48.000
And we you have to you have to really look at where where this person's come from and what are they looking for as they move forward and how do we get them there, you know?
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:55.199
And I mean, most clients that have anorexia don't really want to gain the weight, you know.
00:12:55.439 --> 00:13:07.839
So it is that being able to find something that means more to them than their eating disorder on both sides: anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating.
00:13:08.079 --> 00:13:16.399
So now you you've been a clinical director, you've moved on, you've and um and now you do private practice in Oregon.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:17.439
Yeah.
00:13:17.599 --> 00:13:25.599
I have a little private practice, and I still see clients of all ages um of eating disorders.
00:13:25.839 --> 00:13:41.360
Um, I work with teens, I've worked with younger children, even like, you know, we see a lot of like RFID presentation, which is not something that you and I necessarily did together because it didn't we didn't have a diagnosis for it at that time, right?
00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:49.439
But um doing that sort of exposure therapy stuff with young, younger elementary school age children.
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:52.559
Um, and then you know, I I love my teens.
00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:53.679
I love working with teens.
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:54.399
I can't help it.
00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.759
Teens and like college students, they just they keep me young.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.279
That's all I can say.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.599
Yeah, I love teens and college students.
00:14:03.839 --> 00:14:09.519
Like I um they're my favorite because I it, you know, it's interesting.
00:14:09.599 --> 00:14:13.919
It reminds me of PHP, IOP, and outpatient.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:26.959
You're transitioning people through the different steps of treatment into life, and I think teens and college age, there's they're going through a lot of transitions.
00:14:27.199 --> 00:14:31.039
Transition from high school to college, transition from college to life.
00:14:31.199 --> 00:14:33.839
And those are not easy transitions.
00:14:34.319 --> 00:14:37.679
No, and they're ripe for like an eating disorder development, right?
00:14:37.839 --> 00:14:39.279
All of those transitions.
00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:48.559
And like you said, we need to help them find something that is more meaningful in their life to grab onto, you know, other than the eating disorder.
00:14:48.719 --> 00:14:52.559
And that's that's where the work is, especially at those ages.
00:14:52.719 --> 00:14:56.240
Like, you know, you're young, you've got your whole life ahead of you.
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:57.439
What do you want to do?
00:14:57.599 --> 00:14:59.279
What like what inspires you?
00:14:59.439 --> 00:15:00.480
What encourages you?
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:07.439
And to see people get inspired in treatment was like, that was the funnest part of my job.
00:15:07.599 --> 00:15:15.279
I loved it, you know, people leaving, like, you know, coming in and being like such a shell of their former selves.
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:23.279
And then by the time they would leave treatment, they would be this fully embodied, inspired in in the best cases.
00:15:23.439 --> 00:15:26.079
But I would say, like, we had good outcomes.
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:27.839
Yeah, we did have good outcomes.
00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:41.759
Um, you know, I mean, I guess there were some some some clients that didn't always make it through, let's be honest, right?
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:42.959
But we really did.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:49.919
I mean, it was like it was great, inspiring, fun, energizing, hard work, you know.
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:52.079
Um yeah.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:57.599
And so I don't know, it's it's always gonna be um something that I I do.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:06.879
And now I've like I've I did a lot of study in um somatic practices in the last probably like five, 10 years.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.240
And that has also been a really big game changer in my practice.
00:16:10.319 --> 00:16:14.319
Like Carolyn, you know, I mean, she would be like, What's going on with your foot?
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:15.839
Why are you tapping your foot like that?
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.159
You know, she would notice things like that, and I would be like, What is she talking about?
00:16:20.319 --> 00:16:26.079
You know, but now um the mind-body connection is so a part of what I bring.
00:16:26.319 --> 00:16:27.279
It's so right.
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.199
Like, I mean, it's the most important thing.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:36.719
The people who listen to my podcast prior here, tired of hearing me say this, but I always say the elevator's gotta stop at all the floors.
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:40.879
It can't just be up in the penthouse, which is where the eating disorder lives.
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.480
You know, it's gotta be mind-body connection.
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:54.399
And for dancers and athletes, there definitely has to be a mind-body connection because you know, it's like the body, you gotta listen to your body.
00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:55.279
You have to.
00:16:55.360 --> 00:17:13.759
And I think like what's interesting about that is that we're sort of taught, maybe I don't, well, I don't know if it's it's still true now, but like, don't you feel like some athletes are taught to not pay attention to their body, to like no pain, no gain, or to work through that pain?
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:15.920
At least that used to be the philosophy.
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.759
And now, like Lindsay Vaughn, you know, she just had that skiing accident.
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:29.440
And I was listening to an interview with her doctor, and her doctor was saying something like it, if she feels good, she can ski.
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.799
Like this is when she like supposedly tore her ACL, right?
00:17:33.120 --> 00:17:39.599
And um it was like she's gonna feel if she's ready or not to do the skiing.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.759
And sure enough, she felt like she could do it, but she had that terrible break.
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:48.559
Um, she actually, I mean, now they're saying like she almost they almost amputated her leg.
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.160
That's how bad that break was.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:18:05.359
But it was a broken bone, which is, you know, um, but she she has probably that really high level knowing like how far she can push her body, you know, um, where to take it, where to not take it.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:26.799
Whereas I would say people with eating disorders, you know, that do the over-exercise in the CrossFit and things like that, not not saying anything negative about CrossFit, but like they, they ignore their cues and they ignore and they work through the pain and they don't um, you know, they don't pay attention to it.
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:39.440
Like I, you know, I was constantly ignoring the pain in my body, and I'd be like, you know, and you, you and I, we would see clients all the time at in treatment that would have fractures in their foot from running and they wouldn't even know it.
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:44.399
We'd be like, dude, your foot's broken, and you're running 10 miles a day or whatever.
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:45.200
Yeah.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.079
I mean, it is it is being able to listen to your body and know what it needs.
00:18:50.159 --> 00:18:52.079
And we're born with that.
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.159
We're born with this innate sense of like I cry when I'm hungry.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:57.119
We know.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:04.480
Yeah, and how many people have you worked with over the years who who will say, I don't feel hunger anymore?
00:19:04.639 --> 00:19:07.920
Like, I don't, I don't know where my hunger is, I don't feel it.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.039
Um, or I don't, I can't feel my fullness.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:16.480
And and that's a result of overriding their their internal cues for so long.
00:19:16.639 --> 00:19:19.039
We like train ourselves out of it.
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:21.279
Yeah, that's the society we live in.
00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:22.079
Yeah.
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:33.680
And just the now the GLP ones and it's we live in the society where it's focused on how thin are people, you know, and it's really a difficult.
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:35.680
I think it's difficult for people.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.000
Um, I think it's incredibly hard.
00:19:38.159 --> 00:19:42.639
I mean, what when I was growing up, it was like like that heroin chic, right?
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:56.879
Like we had those the supermodels were like a really a big thing, but this is insane now with the GLP ones because your average normal person can just take one of these and become like anorexic, you know what I'm saying?
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:05.920
Yeah, and and we're just supposed to turn the other, you know, eye, like and not pay attention, not be like, hey, this person is in need of help.
00:20:06.159 --> 00:20:24.319
Yeah, it's it's very much like when whether it's bariatric or it's eating disorders come around because there's an underlying reason, it's not about the food, you know, there's a psychological component to it.
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:34.639
And so if you don't deal with that, whether it's GLP1s or the bariatric surgery or a sleeve or whatever, you're not dealing with why people are doing what they do with their food.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.680
And if it doesn't change, it's gonna happen again.
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:38.240
Correct.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:40.079
That's why diets don't work.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:40.720
Exactly.
00:20:40.879 --> 00:20:42.879
You're just running from the problem, right?
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:54.960
You know, and that's why I think we're seeing some people, some celebrities today that are like, I mean, they they look anorexic to me on the GLP ones, and I'm just thinking, like, what is happening?
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:57.759
You know, that's an eating disorder, right?
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:08.720
Like the the person who can use a GLP one and whatever, restore their metabolism, whatever they're doing, like if they have diabetes, etc., you know, they can stop.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:18.559
But the person who can't stop is, you know, that's the person with the eating disorder who's misusing GLP1, right?
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:19.279
Yeah.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.839
And now everybody can pretty much get them.
00:21:22.639 --> 00:21:28.559
So, Jackie, if people are going to so I don't know.
00:21:28.639 --> 00:21:30.639
Are you still licensed in California?
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:32.000
No, I'm not.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:33.359
I know, it's not silly.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:34.159
I don't know why I didn't.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:35.839
How about for dietary?
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.599
Uh dietary, you don't actually have to be licensed in California.
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.319
I do have to be licensed here in Oregon, though.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:53.839
Um, yeah, and so I'm both a dietitian, I am licensed as a therapist, and I'm a sports certified supervisor as well, as a therapist.
00:21:54.159 --> 00:21:56.960
Yeah, so I don't have my seeds though.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:58.000
I did not get that.
00:21:58.159 --> 00:22:01.759
I was not grandfathered in, which I'm like, oh, I can't believe I didn't do that.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:16.000
But um, I still love working with um interns and associates and training them about eating disorder treatment because as you know, it it it's a different, it's a different vibe, and you gotta know what you're doing.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:16.960
Yes, you do.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:25.839
So sports, you're certified in sports um psychology or not, no, no.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:32.079
What I was was uh I was a personal trainer for many years, and I sort of let that lapse too.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:55.440
Um, because I did, I did work with a lot of athletes at the time, and um now I'm I'm more almost like more trauma-oriented or sensory motor, I would say, like the somatic um approach to healing your relationship with body, food, and weight, you know, like get in touch with what's going on inside and let's talk about it, you know.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.680
That's what I'm doing now.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.200
Um, yeah.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.599
And so how do people reach you?
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:07.039
If you're listening to this and you're in Oregon, and there's a lot of athletes in Oregon.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.399
So yeah.
00:23:08.639 --> 00:23:14.480
So I have a um, I'm at the gathering place, which uh you can Google that.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.920
It's the gatheringplacewl.org.
00:23:18.159 --> 00:23:20.879
And um I have this cute little space there.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.759
We're the oldest building in West Lynn.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.240
Um, sometimes I'm like, are we haunted?
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:27.200
Like, I don't know.
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:28.159
I think we might.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:41.519
I I sometimes wonder about that, but it's a really cool building where I do um individual therapy and we've done some group work there and some fun like Reiki and just some spiritual work as well.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:42.399
Very cool.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.240
And do you have a website?
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:45.359
That is my website.
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:46.079
It's the gathering.
00:23:46.639 --> 00:23:49.039
Yeah, I don't have an individual website.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:55.759
Um, I'm also on creedon.org, which is um the Columbia River Eating Disorder Network.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.599
And I have a profile on there.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:01.680
And I think I have one on psychology today, but yeah, no, I don't have my individual website.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.680
I I started one and then I just, you know, didn't complete it.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.480
Okay, so now you know how to reach Jackie.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.879
And so thank you, Jackie, for being on the podcast.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.480
What a what a pleasure.
00:24:14.639 --> 00:24:17.119
I forget how much I loved working with you.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:22.079
So what a great um gift for me to get to talk to you today.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.759
To the to the listeners of Tutu Thin, thank you so much for being a listener.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:40.159
As always, you can reach me through my website at donteore.com, tututhin.com, mothermeninandme.com, or at my Instagram at uh dawn.smith.theodore.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:41.279
So thank you again.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:42.639
Have a wonderful day.
