WEBVTT
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Not every path to the city manager's office starts in a suit.
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Some start in the field, knocking on doors, solving problems, and working face to face with the community.
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Rising from code enforcement into executive leadership is a route you don't see very often.
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It's a journey built on a real-world experience, tough conversations, problem solving, and a deep understanding about how ordinances, policies, and cities actually work and impact people.
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Are cities missing these crucial qualities when hiring executive leadership?
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Tune in to hear how frontline experience can shape powerful public service leaders.
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From Civic Al, this is TrueCode, a podcast explaining what code enforcement is, why our communities need it, and why you should care.
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From firsthand experiences, we discuss quality of life issues to reveal the truth about code enforcement.
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Welcome to the TrueCode Podcast.
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I'm your host, Matt Silver.
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Today I'm really honored to have a friend of mine and a wonderful professional, Sarah Gallagher.
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Sarah is the assistant city manager for the city of Palmdale.
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She leads public works, public safety, and communications, some heavy hitter departments in the city.
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With more than 25 years in public service, she brings deep experience in public safety, regulatory enforcement, and city operations.
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Since joining the city in 2007, Sarah has worked her way up from code enforcement officer all the way through the ranks to assistant city manager where she is today.
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And along the way, she strengthened operations and built strong partnerships.
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Today, she oversees a team of 150 plus employees guiding citywide initiatives across a wide scale budgeting and key operational programs.
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She holds a bachelor's in criminal justice and a master's in public administration and completed the senior executives program in state and local government at Havid Kennedy School.
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Sarah, welcome to the program today.
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Thank you, Matt.
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How was my uh how was my Havid uh accent?
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It was absolutely awesome.
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Yeah, I gotta ask, did you get your uh certificate on the Kana down there at Havid?
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I did.
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Good, perfect.
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All right, well, that's the extent of my Harvard accents that I'm gonna do for this episode.
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So, Sarah, we always ask our guests, um, how did how the heck did you get into code enforcement?
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Because I was it even on your radar at any point in time.
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Absolutely not.
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Um started with my background, family.
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Let's start there a little bit.
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Family is all law enforcement.
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I have a dad, LA County Sheriff's Department lieutenant, brother's a lieutenant, other brother's a deputy.
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And I started my first career was actually with Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department as well.
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It was a sheriff security officer at the superior court.
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So I only worked court services.
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I did that job for about 10 years, and the liaison deputy of the local city came to me one day and said, I think code enforcement is something you would excel at.
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I think this is something that would be a really good fit for you.
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And him being the liaison worked closely with the city of Lancaster at the time.
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And he they had an opening.
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He asked me to apply for that.
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And I went home and went, What the heck is code enforcement?
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Had never heard anything about it.
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Wanted to prepare myself for a successful interview.
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First mistake I made was I printed the entire municipal code so that I could try to understand a little bit more about what these guys do.
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Little did I know it would take two, three reams of paper.
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Um, and thought I was gonna be ahead of the game.
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I went and enrolled myself also in a home inspection, um, got a home inspection certification, thinking that would help bring some experience that I didn't have with what works in a house, what doesn't, just kind of look for some issues in homes and how I could bring this all together for the job.
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Um, needless to say, I applied for the job at Lancaster.
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I did not get it.
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It was an awful interview.
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One of the gentlemen on the panel worked for the city of Palmdale, and he pulled me aside and he said, if you don't get that job, I'm hiring you.
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And, you know, I asked him, Did you not see what happened in there?
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It was probably the worst interview I've ever had in my entire life.
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And he said, the interview doesn't mean anything to me.
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He said, you know, the the energy, the experience, the relationships that you've built basically with the community and throughout the courthouse and the court services and the justice system, he said, would be a huge asset to our team.
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And a couple months later, I got hired here with the city of Palmdale, and I've been here ever since.
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That's incredible.
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I mean, what a what an amazing kind of example of how one door closes, another door opens.
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Here you think you bombed the interview for Lancaster, but Palmdales happened to be in there and saw something in you that you thought was bad and they thought was good.
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That's amazing.
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Now, when when let's go kind of back a step here, what was it about code enforcement?
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Even though you didn't know about it or what it was, what was it about that intrigued you enough to want to leave your current job to explore this industry?
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Early on path, I was convinced I was going to be a deputy sheriff.
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That was the job I wanted since I was a little guy.
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That was some of the schooling I did and early education.
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And when I was working for the sheriff's department in a different capacity, um, I had young kids at the time.
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And the idea of being out in the field as a deputy sheriff didn't seem like a good fit for a young mom with young kids at the time.
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So this looked like another opportunity that was interesting, intriguing, exciting that would still give me a different opportunity to work with the community and a different capacity.
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It just had a lot of benefits to me at the time that seemed to work well for me, my family, interesting, and just wanted to jump all in and see what it was all about.
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Would you still uh recommend?
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I mean, is code of force is still a good fit for particularly working moms in your situation at that point?
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Oh, I would say absolutely.
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We're lucky here at the City of Pomday.
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We have a 410 schedule.
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So you have, you know, your three days off.
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It's a it's a great work life balance opportunity.
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We've got in our team now lots of young parents.
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I believe we have a pregnant officer right now.
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Um, and I believe they'll be able to support their families, um, have a career that they're proud of, and also be able to spend the time with their family as they grow.
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Yeah.
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So a little, maybe a little more work-life balance than uh traditional policing would.
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Absolutely.
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Got it.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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That's interesting.
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Okay.
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And on that 410 note, so you work four days a week, 10 hours a day, but in code enforcement, it's a 410, I assume.
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Is that right?
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It is a 410.
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And now that you're sitting here in what I like to call the C suite, the executive suite, uh, is it a 410 or are you really just on seven, 128 or however many hours are in a week?
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There's no sleep in this job.
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But I'll tell you the last few years in working directly just with public safety, I would say is the same.
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Yes, code enforcement's a nice 410 schedule.
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Um, but public safety never sleeps.
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Um, we don't, the cities open Monday through Thursday, but code enforcement works seven days a week.
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And those 10-hour shifts can fluctuate to where the need is, you know, for addressing food vendors or special events and other things with different times.
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So they it's still a great, it's a great schedule.
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It's a great job, but compared to the rest of the city who works Monday through Thursday, some might see that as a little bit not as cush as others.
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Yeah, sure.
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No, I totally get that.
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I mean, public safety doesn't stop because the problems don't stop.
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So it works in on the same schedule, the same calendar, same clock as uh the problems do, right?
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So, in when you were in code enforcement, um, you started out as what?
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What's the title in that kind of starting job?
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My starting job was a code enforcement officer one.
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Okay.
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And what kind of duties did you have doing that?
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Oh, I was assigned right out the gate.
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It was so much fun.
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Really, really a fun way to just jump in and take it all in.
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I was assigned 400 cases by the time I got there.
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Those were already assigned to me before I logged onto my computer for that.
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Before you showed up, yeah.
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So, and it was a, you know, it's a little different now.
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We do things different, we train things differently.
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You know, this was 19 years ago.
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Um, so you were assigned your cases and you learned by working through each case.
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You learned by looking at what the complaint is, going out and conducting the inspection, coming back and opening the municipal code and finding what applies, what doesn't apply, what options do we have, and addressing it then with the homeowner.
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What kind of issues were you dealing with at that time?
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Because codes changed a lot in 20 years, but some of the issues have.
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And what kind of you remember some of the kind of issues you had to deal with?
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I had so much fun in that job.
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I learned so many, so many skills were learned there that have helped here.
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Um, but I mean, it was green pools, it was landscape, it was no trash service, it was businesses operating without a business license.
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At that time, actually, foreclosures were huge.
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And we had a lot of bank-owned abandoned properties that were, you know, we'd work with contractors to board them and secure them because, you know, people were coming in and out and vandalizing them.
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But I would say probably about 30% of my cases at that time was dealing with the vacant um and abandoned structures.
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So we had a little bit of mix of everything.
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The only thing I would say we didn't do then that we're struggling with now would be the sidewalk vending.
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That wasn't an issue back then.
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Yeah, that's an issue all over our state.
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And California is uniquely ill-suited to deal with that particular issue.
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Um, but you know, going back to kind of like the Great Recession you're talking about, dealing with the foreclosed homes and some bank in Delaware.
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They don't give a damn what's happening in Palmdale at that time and their property.
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And so I remember going into one of these, and you know, they would get trashed, obviously.
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People on the way out, they would trash them.
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And then, of course, vagrants would come in, squatters would come in, and you'd see everything get like stolen, all the copper gets all, you know, jacked out of the walls.
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And I remember in one place they stole the toilet, which I thought was like, why would you want to take that with you?
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And then another one I saw they stole a fireplace, like a built-in fireplace.
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And I thought, how do you even?
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That's like salting the the earth after like an army leaves a horse.
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Oh, I mean, stealing a fireplace.
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I'm sure you saw all sorts of crazy stuff.
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Oh, we did.
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We saw a lot of good stuff, and it was it was different.
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You know, I don't know, to be honest with you, if it was the Palmdale way that was not proper, but you know, laws and whatnot have changed.
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Code enforcement.
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We would go in and clear these houses ourselves at the time.
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We didn't bring a deputy, we didn't bring and we didn't have an inspection warrant.
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They clear them of people, you would go in, code would go in where there are squatters, unarmed code enforcement, and you would boot these people out.
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Yes, I remember they they trained me to say, you know, this is officer Yellowcare for the city of Palmdell, come out wherever you are to the, you know, come to the sound of my voice.
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And they would have us clear the rooms and the closets and the garage and the attics, and you're just a couple code enforcement officers.
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Yeah, wait a minute.
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You're again, you're unarmed going into this.
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I hate to laugh, it's just so crazy.
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You're unarmed going to it, and not only are you unarmed going into this place that necessarily you know has squatters in it, but then you're saying, Come to my voice.
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Yeah, come to me.
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Come to me.
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Trouble, walk to me, danger.
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I mean, that's kind of the essence in a way of this industry is that people are sticking their neck out to do the right thing.
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I mean, I have no doubt, especially with little kids, the thought crossed your mind, uh, this is a little dangerous.
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And having been in the sheriff's apartment before, you had an acute awareness of safety issues.
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But like, now you don't have a gun, but total forcement, they stick their neck out.
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I mean, is that that's kind of really what they do, right?
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Yeah, we did.
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We went in every time.
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We just had, you know, we had our game plan.
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You brought your partner and you felt okay.
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And I looked now, I look back now and like, what the heck were we doing?
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And I think about that sometimes too, just even on my side in this stuff and uh, you know, with inspection warrants, the search warrants 20 years ago.
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It's a whole different world.
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I mean, you probably didn't go through modules and training and certification back then like we have now for code officers.
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Exactly.
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So we've come a long way.
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That's I think that's a great thing for the profession and for cities, and certainly for liability and for the communities.
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And I do want to take this opportunity to plug everybody back to one of our former episodes on officer safety.
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So good chance to listen how far we've come uh listening to officer safety because the people we deal with don't change, uh at least for the better sometimes, but uh our reaction to it does.
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So that's that's a good highlight.
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So you start off as this kind of a code enforcement officer one.
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Where do you go from there?
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From there, my next role was a senior code enforcement officer.
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Um, from there, I went to manager.
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And at the time, that department never had a director, like a director of public safety, like we have throughout the city.
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You know, director of parks and rec, director of public works.
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So I kind of just quasi-filled that role as the manager.
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Um, but for me, it was just all exciting.
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And I think the energy and the eagerness to learn, I didn't want to just know code enforcement.
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You know, I can I can read that, I can understand the ordinances.
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I wanted to let's make some amendments to some of these ordinances.
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Why, you know, is what's our flexibility here and learning that process and how that goes through council?
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Um, the budget was super exciting to me.
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Who funds this?
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How do we pay for these things?
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What are, what's our parameters here?
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And if we were to adjust some of these levels, what is the opportunities that we could bring to the team, which is training, which is, you know, getting which, you know, our own code enforcement attorneys that we've worked, you know, with you for 11 years.
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We love every minute of it.
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And that helped shape and change the way that we do practices today, which has a better result for our community, better result for our neighbors, um, our businesses and whatnot.
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So it was not just for me.
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I could come in and do code enforcement all day, every day.
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I could work my cases, I could send my notices, file my whatever with the recorder's office, but I wanted to know more and how and why and how to bring our team to a strong team with lots of tools and lots of options.
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And I would attribute that a lot back to my time at the courthouse.
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Um, you know, being there for 10 years, the Lancaster Superior Court, it's a one-stop shop.
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You've got your courtrooms, your probation, your district attorney's office, your family law.
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Criminal, civil.
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It's kind of all there.
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It's all there.
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And so there, you know, I just kind of love the justice system and love getting to know all of those things and those relationships and seeing how those play such a strong partnership or role in what code enforcement does and the tools and the ability to do more.
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It's so much more than just writing a notice of violation, mailing it off, and clicking on to the next.
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You know, you have the ability, which was always so exciting to me, to change the quality of life for a neighborhood, to change the quality of life for a street.
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You drive down some streets, they look like absolute crap.
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That was, you know, if you had a case assigned to you or not, you look at it and go, holy crap, they don't need to live like this.
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I, we are the only team in the entire city that has the ability to make an impact here.
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You know, Sheriff's Department's gonna deal with crime.
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Um, we are the only team that has the ability to come in and change the dynamics of that neighborhood, which in the bigger picture changes kids going outside and playing and playing ball and playing in their street yard, in their streets or front yards and not being surrounded with a bunch of you know, junk cars, broken windows, cars on jacks, things like that that make you just want to stay indoors.
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I think it has the ability to completely change your quality of life.
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And it's very exciting to be a part of that.
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Wow.
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Yeah, well said.
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That's great.
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I also want to flag that you said that the budget was exciting and interesting because that uh that's a phrase that's never crossed my mind.
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But that is uh, but that's a good, I think that's a good point.
00:16:52.320 --> 00:17:01.120
I you hit, you know, I'm kind of trying to keep like a mental checklist of things that are code officers who are listening to this thinking, I'd like to become a city manager one day.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:07.440
And what I heard there, Sarah, was curiosity to know the why behind the what.
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.480
You're out there as a code officer every day, you've got 400, 500 cases on your desk in particular.
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:21.279
May feel overwhelming, but it, you know, getting out of that tunnel vision where you're just focused on, well, I've got to issue a site or I've got to issue a notice, but why are we doing it this way?
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.880
And maybe number two is how can we do it better?
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:31.200
You talked about um, how do we amend our own laws to give us more tools and the toolbox to do a better job for our communities?
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.519
And thinking about, yeah, how can we improve?
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.279
Because it's always improvable.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.160
There is no perfect city and no perfect program, and it might even be today, but not tomorrow.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.119
And then uh I heard there too, like leadership.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:54.799
You were just stepping into a role that it seemed like you could tell the director role that the city needed as probably liaison with all these different public service divisions in the city, but didn't have, and you just did it.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.839
So kind of the do it, do what it takes attitude.
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.519
And then finally, I guess what I picked up was drawing on your past experience.
00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:06.559
You know, no matter what you've come from in your life, it may not even be another job.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:13.359
You may be listening to this coming out of a college or something like that, but you have life experiences that will help you going forward.
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:22.400
Oh, yeah, one more is I heard you talk about relationships, partnerships, understanding how different parts of government work.
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:23.759
I mean, is that accurate?
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:38.960
Are those do you feel like now that you've kind of gotten to a goal that a lot of code enforcement officers may aspire to, do you feel like those are the qualities that people really should kind of be looking to to improve in themselves or focus on to rise up to the ranks?
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:50.960
I I would not I would not have this opportunity of the current job I have right now if it was not for relationship building, if it was not for the partnerships.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.559
This um, you can't do this by yourself.
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.079
You work well with it.
00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:03.599
Took a lot of, you know, working in roles that were not exactly mine, you know, going and talking to finance about budget.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.640
I remember sitting down the first day and go, help me understand this budget.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.680
What's a line item, you know, and how are these line items broken up?
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.160
And they looked at me like, what are you doing?
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.920
You know, you're a code enforcement officer.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.839
Let us work through our finance.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:22.000
But it also brought them to um, you know, not a lot of people get excited about finance.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.119
So they were excited to hear someone want to learn more about the work that they do.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:49.599
Um, and if it wasn't for building those relationships with them, with the courthouse staff, with with our probation, with our animal care and control, with our sheriff's department, with CHP, all of those relationships have helped um me to be resourceful and getting or being able to make other things happen.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:20:00.079
You know, you also have to be careful, you know, you don't want to step over your boss's toes, you know, being the know it all or push your boundaries to where you're working outside of your lane.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.440
There's a balance of respect that needs to be there as well.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.839
But it seemed to have worked well to people kind of gravitate to that.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:12.960
You become the person that they, you know, are looking for the help or looking for the advice.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:19.759
So without the partnerships, and that comes with not just other agencies, it came with residents.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.839
It came with how you approach them.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:31.359
You know, if you just come and slap a notice on their door, you will fix this, you will fix this in 15, 30 days, whatever it is, and they never see you again for 30 days.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:40.319
Um, you know, when they give you that call and say, look, I have to decide to fix your notice or keep my lights on or feed my family.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.240
You know, you can't be a robot.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.559
You've got to communicate with them and say, okay, we let's work through this.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:53.759
You know, my one of my favorite things to do with elderly or those struggling financially, you don't have to redo your landscape overnight.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.359
Let's do two feet at a time.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.640
Let's do it two foot square once a month until we get your property into compliance.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:04.160
And taking the time, finding a resolve that worked for them.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:09.759
Um it just built overall community relationships too.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:26.559
And I will tell you, kind of like my first interview with the city of Lancaster, when I interviewed for the position of a manager, that one of the residents that I had a code enforcement case on his house sat on my interview panel.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:28.720
And it was really bizarre.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.279
I'm like, how in the world did this happen?
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:33.039
It was a big neighbor dispute.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.640
They were arguing about their lights and their block walls, and you're parking in front of my house.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:39.839
That's my street.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.559
And, you know, just did lots of trying to work through it with them.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:51.359
Um, and I had no idea he'd be sitting there on my panel, you know, five years later.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:58.720
And one of the things he made sure to let me know after the decision was made, he said, I was so happy to see you in that seat.
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:09.599
He said, I was so happy to see To see someone come from a government agency that I had experience with, with you know, no idea that this would come to happen in the future.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:14.160
Um, he just said, you know, it couldn't go have gone to a better person.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:20.720
And not trying to say I'm amazing by any means, but he appreciated the experience that we had together.
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.799
And you never know when those things are gonna just circle back and play a big role.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.119
Well, number one, you are amazing at what you do.
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:38.640
And I think that those stories kind of highlight that, you know, for our folks here, you know, who may be new to the profession, those relationships internally across departments, cities are big.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.240
They're big, big government, big business, you know, big entity.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:42.720
There we go.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.920
That's the word I'm looking for.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.359
They're a big entity.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.880
And you dealt with kind of your niche in code enforcement, right?
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.119
And in your jurisdiction, it dealt with a bunch of stuff.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:57.599
But there were these other parts of your other parts of your city community that you needed to get to know.
00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.440
And you kind of did that out of curiosity.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:08.799
And of course, as you rise through the ranks and you're an assistant city manager, you're now overseeing departments like public works that code enforcement touched on, but wasn't really in their wheelhouse.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.440
And so those internal relationships matter a lot, especially when you're gonna be leading other people.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:14.720
That's what I'm hearing here.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.559
And then uh also, you know, kind of knowing why they do their job and how they do it.
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.359
And then also out in the community, I that's crazy that story.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.079
What a coincidence that that person you dealt with.
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:33.279
But I'll tell you, I had a case once where very similar to that kind of just crazy story where I was litigating just a really hard-fought land use case.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:39.759
And opposing counsel on this on the other side of me was from this massive law firm, and he probably made 10 times more than I did.
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.519
And, you know, we were duking it out, but we were always on the side.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.440
You know, his wife was dealing with cancer.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:46.400
You know, how's she doing?
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.880
Checking it.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.000
First and foremost, how are you?
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.119
How are your family?
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.000
Well, we ended up winning this case, thank goodness.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.319
But it was a heck of a fight over a number of years.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.720
One day I go to one of my other cities, city council, and guess who's the mayor?
00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.920
That guy.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.400
And my contract was up for renewal.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.640
And I thought, uh, does he remember me asking about his wife?
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.160
I mean, do you remember that?
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.599
And and you know, when my contract came up, um, it's not totally uncommon for members of the public to come up and want to comment on that.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.519
And it's usually not positive.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.720
And um, so they'll, you know, criticize it.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.759
And the actually wasn't even a member of the public, it was another council member who, for whatever reason, didn't like me.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.359
And this guy piped up and he said, you know what?
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:36.640
I uh I dealt with Matt for years, and just kind of like your person you dealt with, and ended up being my biggest supporter.
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:38.400
And I couldn't believe it.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:47.039
I was just so florid and thankful that um I had just been a nice person, I guess, during tough circumstances.
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:53.599
So the moral of the story is you never know, you never know when someone you deal with is gonna come back in your life in a way you don't expect.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:56.559
So we should always be doing the right thing for right things' sake.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.480
That's probably gonna be my last long-winded ivory tower comment there.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.559
Um, but I want to get back to you.
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:10.720
So you go from a director over to, and you're actually in a different building to City Hall proper where city management is.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:11.839
How did that happen?
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.039
Because that's the big jump.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:13.920
How did that happen?
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.559
That was the big jump for sure.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:22.880
Going back to wanting to be a deputy, then being super excited about overseeing the sheriff's contract.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.519
Be, I I love everything about the justice system.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:27.119
I love everything, public safety.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:29.359
I love that is my true passion.
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:36.400
And when the position first came up for deputy city manager, um, I was asked to apply.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.559
And I thought, are you out of your mind?
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.319
You know, like all I can get you through anything you need public safety.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.359
We can find a way.
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:51.599
But this might be a little outside of my scope or what I would be able to do successfully.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:26:05.599
And it just comes back to having those relationships, you know, um, having other departments and other teams and leadership and elected saying, hey, no promises, but we'd love to see you put your name in the hat for this.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:17.279
And just like, you know, trying to prepare for that job back at the city of Lancaster and printing the municipal code, I kind of did the same thing, you know, what what does this actually look like?
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.359
And what are the expectations of me?
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.920
And making sure there's a, you know, there's a lot of big decisions to be made.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:32.160
There's a lot of people who depend on you to make the right decision, balancing the relationships with, you know, when to be firm and when to be flexible.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:37.839
And um it it seemed very scary to me at the time.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.400
But, you know, I went through the interview process, went through three interviews and was selected for the job.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.559
And about two and a half years later, was appointed ACM.
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:54.880
So you came over as a deputy city manager, kind of the entry-level at the city manager side, right?
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.960
Um, and then recently became the assistant city manager.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.160
What was it like?
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:01.920
I guess we kind of know, right?
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.519
What interested you in city management?
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:05.839
You had a broader interest in the city government.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:06.559
Is that right?
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:07.359
Absolutely.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:30.799
You know, learning from code and whatnot, learning municipal code ordinances and then being a part of now state legislative and going to Sacramento and meeting with the guys who are making the big decisions that are going to impact our city and being able to have a voice there and have a role in that is exciting, but they all stacked on top of each other to get there.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:43.039
Yeah, and I liked your comment about how in in city management you have to know when to be kind of um flexible and when to uh really have to be a little bit more stern.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.920
And I mean, that is just such the essence of code enforcement.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.759
It's that ebb and flow, like give and take of understanding what's working, what's not, when do I have to escalate things.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:28:02.400
So being in city management, I mean, what do you think it was about your city manager and your city council in selecting you that they thought would be valuable to be a city manager?
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:17.440
You know, it was so when I was the deputy city manager, I oversaw, continued to oversee public safety, and they gave me communications as well, which was is an absolute underestimation of what really goes on behind that.
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:32.960
I mean, that's your billboards, that's your flyers, that's your magazine, that's your talking points for your council members, that's the press, it's all of those things that one wrong little slip there could have a pretty big impact, you know, with the newspapers and the local media and things like that.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.559
And that was assigned to me along with public safety.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:45.519
And probably about six, seven months into it, they said, you know what, we're gonna temporarily assign you public works as well.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:29:04.000
Like we really think the ability to um be resourceful and just kind of get the job done without being a jerk along the way is what they what they appreciated, I guess, or said was my strong suit.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:05.599
So they gave me public works.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.880
I don't know the first thing about that.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.839
You know, that's a$300 million department.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.559
It runs off of um half of the city, half of our full-time staff is assigned to public works.
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:31.440
It's everything from our potholes to our heavy tractors to our sewers to our CIP projects, and you know, these engineers who have very niche um experience and knowledge and projects that they're working on.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.559
And they said, This is your department now, take it and run with it.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:41.839
And I will say what has made it so I don't want to say easy, it's a lot of work.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.279
Um, but what has made it a smooth transition, again, it goes back to the relationships.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.240
It's the people that I've worked with here for the last several years.
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.000
It's the respect that they had.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.400
They welcomed me to their department.
00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:00.079
You know, they're helping, they're acknowledging, we both acknowledged right from the beginning.
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.240
I don't know the details of public works.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.400
I know how to help keep the landmines, uh, keep you away from them.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:15.920
I know the political things that we need to help keep away from, or, you know, the things that maybe aren't their strong suits and just the working together.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:18.000
I said, but you're the subject matter experts.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:24.000
You know, you you help me with what we need to do here, and I will take care of these things for you.
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:33.039
And it's just been very, very respectful relationship that's made the transition very smooth and it's actually working very well.
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:41.680
Do you think the fact that they know that you came from the trenches too and worked your way up is something that gives you credibility with the people you're leading?
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.240
Absolutely.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:43.119
Absolutely.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.000
And even with them.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:50.559
I, you know, I come in in boots and jeans and I've gone on rides, I've pumped sewers, I've trimmed trees, you know.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:57.039
It's being willing and able and appreciating all levels of what the local government has to do.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.440
It really goes a long way.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.039
Yeah, and both ways too.
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.359
It's not just uh for them, it's for you, right?
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.039
You can't lead something you don't understand.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:14.720
I remember when my dad was the city manager, he would drive around with a hard hat in his trunk because he just never knew when he was gonna have to get engaged in something.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:24.000
And yeah, on the weekends he would drive around town or you'd go with the police and see what was going on in the city and make sure that you're leading, you know, from the front and with knowledge.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:31.440
So what now that I mean you're here, how do you think code enforcement and your journey through code enforcement has benefited you as a city manager?
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:40.720
We've got a little sneak peek of that, but if you could style it down into a couple of bullet points, how do you think it's helped you or set you up for success to be a city manager?
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:49.440
Kind of problem solve and be it, be a human, you know, being kind, taking a situation as small as it is.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:32:03.200
You know, you could you think you're going to a house one day for landscape, you show up at the property, you've got squatters, I mean, you've got little kids that aren't being well cared for, you've got animals that aren't being cared for, it ends up being a much bigger situation.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:14.000
And having the ability to just work through those and not come in, drop a hammer, not demand things from people that they may or may not be able to do.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.240
Um, I mean, it's not all perfect, of course.
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:17.839
It's all sunshine and rainbows.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:31.680
So what are some things do you think that coming from a code enforcement background have been a bit of a drawback for you or a challenge for you, or maybe didn't set you up well to be a city manager that you had to kind of like learn later on?
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.359
You know, I'm having a hard time coming up with drawbacks.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:39.599
I really, I'm really thankful for every opportunity.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.960
I'm thankful for every code enforcement case, every single one.
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.240
There's no two alike.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.839
You learn something from every single one working through that.
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:49.920
I don't really have any drawbacks.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:51.440
I'm I'm thankful for it.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:58.079
I wouldn't be here without those skills and without those relationships and without that community partnering.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.839
Um, I don't know where my path would be without that.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:02.880
I'm thankful for it.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.000
I didn't see it coming.
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.480
I didn't align myself early on thinking I'm gonna be a code enforcement officer.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.359
And I certainly never thought I'd be in the city manager's office.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:13.839
That was never a goal of mine.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.039
Um, it's pretty rare.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:23.759
In fact, I used to my knees would chaff, you know, shake when I had to come over and talk to the city manager about maybe something we did right or wrong with the code enforcement case.
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:25.279
Imagine growing up with one.
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:25.759
Yeah.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:33.839
And now just seeing it, it just inspires me to inspire others and to see the team.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.440
You know, it's a great group of guys.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:36.880
I love our public safety team.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.559
I love our code enforcement officers.
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:45.200
And in every single one of them, it's just, I love for them to know and feel you can do whatever you want.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:51.200
You know, if this is if this is where you're happy and complacent and this works for, you know, young families or whatnot, great.
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.359
Let's help you be the best at that you can be.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.119
Let's give you the tools you need to be very successful for that.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:03.039
If you've got other things you'd like to grow, maybe it's in another department, maybe it's within the department.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.720
Let us help you get there too.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.480
There's lots of opportunities.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.559
And I just think being here in this seat, that's what I'm most proud of and excited to be able to do.
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.719
Um I think that's a great point.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.639
I don't, I don't feel like I don't feel like there's odd, there's often an obvious path for code enforcement to city manager.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:32.480
I I'm hearing more people these years in code say, yeah, I want to be a city manager one day, which is something I had not heard for a long time or pretty much ever until recently.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:40.079
But I feel like that path through the jungle is just starting to get created for them to city management.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:47.760
Why should city managers consider hiring code people in particular for deputy assistant jobs?
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.000
And why should city councils be focusing on code enforcement as well as other departments?
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.400
Why?
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.519
Why should they be good assets to promote the city management?
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:59.360
I will also say this with our city.
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:05.760
I would say our city council, the one thing the five of them agree on is public safety and our public safety team.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:07.519
They are very supportive.
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.400
In a sense, they're little heroes to the city.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:19.199
They can, if you've got a problem in any sense of the way, if it's, you know, at a local business, if it's signs out on the streets, if it's whatever it is, everyone goes to code enforcement.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.280
Code enforcement's gonna find a way to get that.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.960
The Swiss Army tool.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:23.679
It really is.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.639
And going back to what you're saying with, you know, when I'm at different city manager conferences and whatnot, and we all talk about where we came from.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.840
I am yet to meet another one who came from code enforcement.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.840
It's usually, you know, econdev or public works.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:44.239
And um, you know, sometimes that makes me like, uh-oh, did I, you know, did I fake it till I made it?
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:45.519
You know, do I belong here?
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.800
And then the other side, I'm like, heck yeah, we belong here.
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:58.800
You know, there's a lot that this department, this team, and this job brings that adds a good layer to the city manager's office, a good benefit, a good value.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.840
Yeah, wonderful.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.280
Well said, absolutely.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:09.599
Uh, I do think code enforcement uh can play a great role role as a city manager for all the reasons that you've talked about in this whole thing.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:19.039
And um, economic development, finance, police chiefs sometimes become city managers, uh, community development, all these are great departments to draw from as well.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:22.320
But code enforcement should have its hat in the ring too.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.519
And rising through the rings to code, you really do touch a lot of stuff.
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:35.760
So if I guess maybe good parting words here for the young Sarah Gallagher coming in to uh code enforced, starting out going, gosh, we could go.
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:36.800
I don't even know what code was.
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:38.159
I had to look it up in the dictionary.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:39.440
Now here we are.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:41.760
What speaking right to them?
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:43.679
What kind of advice would you like to give them?
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:44.719
Embrace it.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.639
Learn every bit that you can.
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.079
Be proud of that job.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:59.599
You know, I tell the team all the time, and I'm not knocking any other professionals, but if you look at, you know, bank tellers, you look at grocery store workers, you look at school teachers, your community has a ton of them.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:07.440
We get to be a part of a very small elite group that is the only group that has the ability to make a huge impact in your community.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:13.199
And I strongly believe that I tell the guys this all the time: be proud of your role.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:21.119
Um, the sky's the limit, you know, just dig in, enjoy it, appreciate it, love it, and let it open doors for you.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.079
I love it.
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:23.519
And that that is so true.
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.519
I think even for, you know, I'll speak for our teammates here at Civica.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:31.920
You know, we are all in this stuff top to bottom because we want to make a positive impact.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.280
It may not always be seen, may not always be appreciated, appreciated.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.480
Sometimes it might be skewed in the media the opposite way.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:39.280
That's incorrect.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:44.159
However, we know, we know that what we're doing and our intentions and that we're we're working with good people, doing good things.
00:37:44.400 --> 00:38:09.360
Sarah, I think this has been a great conversation and uh probably the first that I think I've seen where there is a game plan and a path laid out from young Sarah, all the young Sarah's out there, the young Sals out there who are looking to get you know a job and raise their family and make a difference all the way up through uh to leading a city.
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:11.280
And and by the way, counties too.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:12.800
It can happen in any jurisdiction.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.440
So thank you so much for joining us today.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.519
Thank you for a great and really insightful conversation.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.440
So, folks, thank you for joining us here on another True Code Podcast episode.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:29.280
You know, remember our goal is to highlight the truth about code enforcement and their job and their goals to protect and improve communities.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:30.960
Thank you for listening here today.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:37.360
Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn at True Code Podcast and Instagram at truecode.podcast.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:42.079
If you have episode suggestions, please email us at podcastcivicalaw.com.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.599
And as always, thank you for listening.
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.360
Thank you for doing what you do every day.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:46.400
Take care.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:51.440
Thank you for joining us on this journey.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:57.360
If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:38:58.800
Until next time.
00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560
Not every path to the city manager's office starts in a suit.
00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:13.839
Some start in the field, knocking on doors, solving problems, and working face to face with the community.
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:18.399
Rising from code enforcement into executive leadership is a route you don't see very often.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:29.199
It's a journey built on a real-world experience, tough conversations, problem solving, and a deep understanding about how ordinances, policies, and cities actually work and impact people.
00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:33.200
Are cities missing these crucial qualities when hiring executive leadership?
00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:38.719
Tune in to hear how frontline experience can shape powerful public service leaders.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:49.439
From Civic Al, this is TrueCode, a podcast explaining what code enforcement is, why our communities need it, and why you should care.
00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:55.359
From firsthand experiences, we discuss quality of life issues to reveal the truth about code enforcement.
00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:04.480
Welcome to the TrueCode Podcast.
00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:05.840
I'm your host, Matt Silver.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:11.359
Today I'm really honored to have a friend of mine and a wonderful professional, Sarah Gallagher.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.640
Sarah is the assistant city manager for the city of Palmdale.
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:20.319
She leads public works, public safety, and communications, some heavy hitter departments in the city.
00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:27.840
With more than 25 years in public service, she brings deep experience in public safety, regulatory enforcement, and city operations.
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:36.640
Since joining the city in 2007, Sarah has worked her way up from code enforcement officer all the way through the ranks to assistant city manager where she is today.
00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:40.719
And along the way, she strengthened operations and built strong partnerships.
00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:50.239
Today, she oversees a team of 150 plus employees guiding citywide initiatives across a wide scale budgeting and key operational programs.
00:01:50.400 --> 00:02:00.560
She holds a bachelor's in criminal justice and a master's in public administration and completed the senior executives program in state and local government at Havid Kennedy School.
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.560
Sarah, welcome to the program today.
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:03.760
Thank you, Matt.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.640
How was my uh how was my Havid uh accent?
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.719
It was absolutely awesome.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:14.080
Yeah, I gotta ask, did you get your uh certificate on the Kana down there at Havid?
00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:15.039
I did.
00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:16.400
Good, perfect.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.840
All right, well, that's the extent of my Harvard accents that I'm gonna do for this episode.
00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:25.039
So, Sarah, we always ask our guests, um, how did how the heck did you get into code enforcement?
00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:29.120
Because I was it even on your radar at any point in time.
00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:30.560
Absolutely not.
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:33.840
Um started with my background, family.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:35.199
Let's start there a little bit.
00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:36.719
Family is all law enforcement.
00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:42.240
I have a dad, LA County Sheriff's Department lieutenant, brother's a lieutenant, other brother's a deputy.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:47.120
And I started my first career was actually with Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department as well.
00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:51.439
It was a sheriff security officer at the superior court.
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:53.439
So I only worked court services.
00:02:53.599 --> 00:03:04.639
I did that job for about 10 years, and the liaison deputy of the local city came to me one day and said, I think code enforcement is something you would excel at.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.520
I think this is something that would be a really good fit for you.
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.479
And him being the liaison worked closely with the city of Lancaster at the time.
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:14.560
And he they had an opening.
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:16.159
He asked me to apply for that.
00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:18.960
And I went home and went, What the heck is code enforcement?
00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:20.879
Had never heard anything about it.
00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:24.639
Wanted to prepare myself for a successful interview.
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:33.360
First mistake I made was I printed the entire municipal code so that I could try to understand a little bit more about what these guys do.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.719
Little did I know it would take two, three reams of paper.
00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:41.120
Um, and thought I was gonna be ahead of the game.
00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:59.680
I went and enrolled myself also in a home inspection, um, got a home inspection certification, thinking that would help bring some experience that I didn't have with what works in a house, what doesn't, just kind of look for some issues in homes and how I could bring this all together for the job.
00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:03.039
Um, needless to say, I applied for the job at Lancaster.
00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:03.919
I did not get it.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:05.759
It was an awful interview.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:13.199
One of the gentlemen on the panel worked for the city of Palmdale, and he pulled me aside and he said, if you don't get that job, I'm hiring you.
00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.919
And, you know, I asked him, Did you not see what happened in there?
00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.720
It was probably the worst interview I've ever had in my entire life.
00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:22.240
And he said, the interview doesn't mean anything to me.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:36.399
He said, you know, the the energy, the experience, the relationships that you've built basically with the community and throughout the courthouse and the court services and the justice system, he said, would be a huge asset to our team.
00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:40.879
And a couple months later, I got hired here with the city of Palmdale, and I've been here ever since.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:41.920
That's incredible.
00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:47.279
I mean, what a what an amazing kind of example of how one door closes, another door opens.
00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:57.279
Here you think you bombed the interview for Lancaster, but Palmdales happened to be in there and saw something in you that you thought was bad and they thought was good.
00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:58.160
That's amazing.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.879
Now, when when let's go kind of back a step here, what was it about code enforcement?
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:11.279
Even though you didn't know about it or what it was, what was it about that intrigued you enough to want to leave your current job to explore this industry?
00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.439
Early on path, I was convinced I was going to be a deputy sheriff.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.160
That was the job I wanted since I was a little guy.
00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:22.639
That was some of the schooling I did and early education.
00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:30.800
And when I was working for the sheriff's department in a different capacity, um, I had young kids at the time.
00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:38.800
And the idea of being out in the field as a deputy sheriff didn't seem like a good fit for a young mom with young kids at the time.
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:52.720
So this looked like another opportunity that was interesting, intriguing, exciting that would still give me a different opportunity to work with the community and a different capacity.
00:05:52.959 --> 00:06:01.360
It just had a lot of benefits to me at the time that seemed to work well for me, my family, interesting, and just wanted to jump all in and see what it was all about.
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:03.439
Would you still uh recommend?
00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.199
I mean, is code of force is still a good fit for particularly working moms in your situation at that point?
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:10.879
Oh, I would say absolutely.
00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:12.720
We're lucky here at the City of Pomday.
00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:14.399
We have a 410 schedule.
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:16.480
So you have, you know, your three days off.
00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:20.720
It's a it's a great work life balance opportunity.
00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.279
We've got in our team now lots of young parents.
00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.240
I believe we have a pregnant officer right now.
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:36.639
Um, and I believe they'll be able to support their families, um, have a career that they're proud of, and also be able to spend the time with their family as they grow.
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:37.120
Yeah.
00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:41.920
So a little, maybe a little more work-life balance than uh traditional policing would.
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:42.800
Absolutely.
00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:43.439
Got it.
00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:43.759
Yeah.
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:44.160
Wow.
00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:44.879
That's interesting.
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:45.360
Okay.
00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:52.399
And on that 410 note, so you work four days a week, 10 hours a day, but in code enforcement, it's a 410, I assume.
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:53.199
Is that right?
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:54.480
It is a 410.
00:06:54.639 --> 00:07:04.560
And now that you're sitting here in what I like to call the C suite, the executive suite, uh, is it a 410 or are you really just on seven, 128 or however many hours are in a week?
00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:05.920
There's no sleep in this job.
00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:11.439
But I'll tell you the last few years in working directly just with public safety, I would say is the same.
00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.720
Yes, code enforcement's a nice 410 schedule.
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:16.959
Um, but public safety never sleeps.
00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:22.399
Um, we don't, the cities open Monday through Thursday, but code enforcement works seven days a week.
00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:31.839
And those 10-hour shifts can fluctuate to where the need is, you know, for addressing food vendors or special events and other things with different times.
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.240
So they it's still a great, it's a great schedule.
00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:45.759
It's a great job, but compared to the rest of the city who works Monday through Thursday, some might see that as a little bit not as cush as others.
00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:46.720
Yeah, sure.
00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:47.839
No, I totally get that.
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.759
I mean, public safety doesn't stop because the problems don't stop.
00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:57.279
So it works in on the same schedule, the same calendar, same clock as uh the problems do, right?
00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:02.319
So, in when you were in code enforcement, um, you started out as what?
00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:04.560
What's the title in that kind of starting job?
00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.000
My starting job was a code enforcement officer one.
00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:08.720
Okay.
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:10.879
And what kind of duties did you have doing that?
00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:12.879
Oh, I was assigned right out the gate.
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:13.839
It was so much fun.
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:19.199
Really, really a fun way to just jump in and take it all in.
00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:21.839
I was assigned 400 cases by the time I got there.
00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.279
Those were already assigned to me before I logged onto my computer for that.
00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:26.560
Before you showed up, yeah.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:30.800
So, and it was a, you know, it's a little different now.
00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:32.639
We do things different, we train things differently.
00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.799
You know, this was 19 years ago.
00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:40.159
Um, so you were assigned your cases and you learned by working through each case.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:53.759
You learned by looking at what the complaint is, going out and conducting the inspection, coming back and opening the municipal code and finding what applies, what doesn't apply, what options do we have, and addressing it then with the homeowner.
00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.159
What kind of issues were you dealing with at that time?
00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:59.200
Because codes changed a lot in 20 years, but some of the issues have.
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:01.840
And what kind of you remember some of the kind of issues you had to deal with?
00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:03.200
I had so much fun in that job.
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:08.639
I learned so many, so many skills were learned there that have helped here.
00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:17.519
Um, but I mean, it was green pools, it was landscape, it was no trash service, it was businesses operating without a business license.
00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.559
At that time, actually, foreclosures were huge.
00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:32.559
And we had a lot of bank-owned abandoned properties that were, you know, we'd work with contractors to board them and secure them because, you know, people were coming in and out and vandalizing them.
00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:40.879
But I would say probably about 30% of my cases at that time was dealing with the vacant um and abandoned structures.
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.440
So we had a little bit of mix of everything.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:50.480
The only thing I would say we didn't do then that we're struggling with now would be the sidewalk vending.
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.000
That wasn't an issue back then.
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:53.919
Yeah, that's an issue all over our state.
00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:59.039
And California is uniquely ill-suited to deal with that particular issue.
00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:06.159
Um, but you know, going back to kind of like the Great Recession you're talking about, dealing with the foreclosed homes and some bank in Delaware.
00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.519
They don't give a damn what's happening in Palmdale at that time and their property.
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:14.480
And so I remember going into one of these, and you know, they would get trashed, obviously.
00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:16.480
People on the way out, they would trash them.
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:24.480
And then, of course, vagrants would come in, squatters would come in, and you'd see everything get like stolen, all the copper gets all, you know, jacked out of the walls.
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:30.159
And I remember in one place they stole the toilet, which I thought was like, why would you want to take that with you?
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:34.240
And then another one I saw they stole a fireplace, like a built-in fireplace.
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.399
And I thought, how do you even?
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:41.200
That's like salting the the earth after like an army leaves a horse.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.279
Oh, I mean, stealing a fireplace.
00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:44.960
I'm sure you saw all sorts of crazy stuff.
00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:45.759
Oh, we did.
00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.639
We saw a lot of good stuff, and it was it was different.
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:55.200
You know, I don't know, to be honest with you, if it was the Palmdale way that was not proper, but you know, laws and whatnot have changed.
00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:56.639
Code enforcement.
00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.000
We would go in and clear these houses ourselves at the time.
00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:04.480
We didn't bring a deputy, we didn't bring and we didn't have an inspection warrant.
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:13.200
They clear them of people, you would go in, code would go in where there are squatters, unarmed code enforcement, and you would boot these people out.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:24.000
Yes, I remember they they trained me to say, you know, this is officer Yellowcare for the city of Palmdell, come out wherever you are to the, you know, come to the sound of my voice.
00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:31.039
And they would have us clear the rooms and the closets and the garage and the attics, and you're just a couple code enforcement officers.
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.000
Yeah, wait a minute.
00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:35.600
You're again, you're unarmed going into this.
00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:37.759
I hate to laugh, it's just so crazy.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:46.399
You're unarmed going to it, and not only are you unarmed going into this place that necessarily you know has squatters in it, but then you're saying, Come to my voice.
00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:47.120
Yeah, come to me.
00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:48.159
Come to me.
00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.080
Trouble, walk to me, danger.
00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:59.759
I mean, that's kind of the essence in a way of this industry is that people are sticking their neck out to do the right thing.
00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:05.200
I mean, I have no doubt, especially with little kids, the thought crossed your mind, uh, this is a little dangerous.
00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:10.320
And having been in the sheriff's apartment before, you had an acute awareness of safety issues.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:14.320
But like, now you don't have a gun, but total forcement, they stick their neck out.
00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.559
I mean, is that that's kind of really what they do, right?
00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:17.600
Yeah, we did.
00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:18.559
We went in every time.
00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:20.639
We just had, you know, we had our game plan.
00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.440
You brought your partner and you felt okay.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.600
And I looked now, I look back now and like, what the heck were we doing?
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:35.759
And I think about that sometimes too, just even on my side in this stuff and uh, you know, with inspection warrants, the search warrants 20 years ago.
00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:36.960
It's a whole different world.
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.720
I mean, you probably didn't go through modules and training and certification back then like we have now for code officers.
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:43.200
Exactly.
00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:44.159
So we've come a long way.
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:50.080
That's I think that's a great thing for the profession and for cities, and certainly for liability and for the communities.
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:57.279
And I do want to take this opportunity to plug everybody back to one of our former episodes on officer safety.
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:08.960
So good chance to listen how far we've come uh listening to officer safety because the people we deal with don't change, uh at least for the better sometimes, but uh our reaction to it does.
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:10.639
So that's that's a good highlight.
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.000
So you start off as this kind of a code enforcement officer one.
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.039
Where do you go from there?
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:20.320
From there, my next role was a senior code enforcement officer.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.120
Um, from there, I went to manager.
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:30.960
And at the time, that department never had a director, like a director of public safety, like we have throughout the city.
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.480
You know, director of parks and rec, director of public works.
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.759
So I kind of just quasi-filled that role as the manager.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:44.480
Um, but for me, it was just all exciting.
00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:50.320
And I think the energy and the eagerness to learn, I didn't want to just know code enforcement.
00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.519
You know, I can I can read that, I can understand the ordinances.
00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:57.440
I wanted to let's make some amendments to some of these ordinances.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:04.000
Why, you know, is what's our flexibility here and learning that process and how that goes through council?
00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.399
Um, the budget was super exciting to me.
00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:07.440
Who funds this?
00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:08.879
How do we pay for these things?
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.120
What are, what's our parameters here?
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:25.519
And if we were to adjust some of these levels, what is the opportunities that we could bring to the team, which is training, which is, you know, getting which, you know, our own code enforcement attorneys that we've worked, you know, with you for 11 years.
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:26.879
We love every minute of it.
00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:38.720
And that helped shape and change the way that we do practices today, which has a better result for our community, better result for our neighbors, um, our businesses and whatnot.
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:41.200
So it was not just for me.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.159
I could come in and do code enforcement all day, every day.
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:58.559
I could work my cases, I could send my notices, file my whatever with the recorder's office, but I wanted to know more and how and why and how to bring our team to a strong team with lots of tools and lots of options.
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.919
And I would attribute that a lot back to my time at the courthouse.
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.600
Um, you know, being there for 10 years, the Lancaster Superior Court, it's a one-stop shop.
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:14.639
You've got your courtrooms, your probation, your district attorney's office, your family law.
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:16.159
Criminal, civil.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.120
It's kind of all there.
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:18.000
It's all there.
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:34.720
And so there, you know, I just kind of love the justice system and love getting to know all of those things and those relationships and seeing how those play such a strong partnership or role in what code enforcement does and the tools and the ability to do more.
00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:40.399
It's so much more than just writing a notice of violation, mailing it off, and clicking on to the next.
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:48.240
You know, you have the ability, which was always so exciting to me, to change the quality of life for a neighborhood, to change the quality of life for a street.
00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.279
You drive down some streets, they look like absolute crap.
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:57.440
That was, you know, if you had a case assigned to you or not, you look at it and go, holy crap, they don't need to live like this.
00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:03.039
I, we are the only team in the entire city that has the ability to make an impact here.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.679
You know, Sheriff's Department's gonna deal with crime.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:32.960
Um, we are the only team that has the ability to come in and change the dynamics of that neighborhood, which in the bigger picture changes kids going outside and playing and playing ball and playing in their street yard, in their streets or front yards and not being surrounded with a bunch of you know, junk cars, broken windows, cars on jacks, things like that that make you just want to stay indoors.
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:36.080
I think it has the ability to completely change your quality of life.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.799
And it's very exciting to be a part of that.
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:39.600
Wow.
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:40.799
Yeah, well said.
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:41.440
That's great.
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:48.720
I also want to flag that you said that the budget was exciting and interesting because that uh that's a phrase that's never crossed my mind.
00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.240
But that is uh, but that's a good, I think that's a good point.
00:16:52.320 --> 00:17:01.120
I you hit, you know, I'm kind of trying to keep like a mental checklist of things that are code officers who are listening to this thinking, I'd like to become a city manager one day.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:07.440
And what I heard there, Sarah, was curiosity to know the why behind the what.
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.480
You're out there as a code officer every day, you've got 400, 500 cases on your desk in particular.
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:21.279
May feel overwhelming, but it, you know, getting out of that tunnel vision where you're just focused on, well, I've got to issue a site or I've got to issue a notice, but why are we doing it this way?
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.880
And maybe number two is how can we do it better?
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:31.200
You talked about um, how do we amend our own laws to give us more tools and the toolbox to do a better job for our communities?
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.519
And thinking about, yeah, how can we improve?
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.279
Because it's always improvable.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.160
There is no perfect city and no perfect program, and it might even be today, but not tomorrow.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.119
And then uh I heard there too, like leadership.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:54.799
You were just stepping into a role that it seemed like you could tell the director role that the city needed as probably liaison with all these different public service divisions in the city, but didn't have, and you just did it.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.839
So kind of the do it, do what it takes attitude.
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.519
And then finally, I guess what I picked up was drawing on your past experience.
00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:06.559
You know, no matter what you've come from in your life, it may not even be another job.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:13.359
You may be listening to this coming out of a college or something like that, but you have life experiences that will help you going forward.
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:22.400
Oh, yeah, one more is I heard you talk about relationships, partnerships, understanding how different parts of government work.
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:23.759
I mean, is that accurate?
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:38.960
Are those do you feel like now that you've kind of gotten to a goal that a lot of code enforcement officers may aspire to, do you feel like those are the qualities that people really should kind of be looking to to improve in themselves or focus on to rise up to the ranks?
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:50.960
I I would not I would not have this opportunity of the current job I have right now if it was not for relationship building, if it was not for the partnerships.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.559
This um, you can't do this by yourself.
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.079
You work well with it.
00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:03.599
Took a lot of, you know, working in roles that were not exactly mine, you know, going and talking to finance about budget.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.640
I remember sitting down the first day and go, help me understand this budget.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.680
What's a line item, you know, and how are these line items broken up?
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.160
And they looked at me like, what are you doing?
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.920
You know, you're a code enforcement officer.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.839
Let us work through our finance.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:22.000
But it also brought them to um, you know, not a lot of people get excited about finance.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.119
So they were excited to hear someone want to learn more about the work that they do.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:49.599
Um, and if it wasn't for building those relationships with them, with the courthouse staff, with with our probation, with our animal care and control, with our sheriff's department, with CHP, all of those relationships have helped um me to be resourceful and getting or being able to make other things happen.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:20:00.079
You know, you also have to be careful, you know, you don't want to step over your boss's toes, you know, being the know it all or push your boundaries to where you're working outside of your lane.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.440
There's a balance of respect that needs to be there as well.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.839
But it seemed to have worked well to people kind of gravitate to that.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:12.960
You become the person that they, you know, are looking for the help or looking for the advice.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:19.759
So without the partnerships, and that comes with not just other agencies, it came with residents.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.839
It came with how you approach them.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:31.359
You know, if you just come and slap a notice on their door, you will fix this, you will fix this in 15, 30 days, whatever it is, and they never see you again for 30 days.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:40.319
Um, you know, when they give you that call and say, look, I have to decide to fix your notice or keep my lights on or feed my family.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.240
You know, you can't be a robot.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.559
You've got to communicate with them and say, okay, we let's work through this.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:53.759
You know, my one of my favorite things to do with elderly or those struggling financially, you don't have to redo your landscape overnight.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.359
Let's do two feet at a time.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.640
Let's do it two foot square once a month until we get your property into compliance.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:04.160
And taking the time, finding a resolve that worked for them.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:09.759
Um it just built overall community relationships too.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:26.559
And I will tell you, kind of like my first interview with the city of Lancaster, when I interviewed for the position of a manager, that one of the residents that I had a code enforcement case on his house sat on my interview panel.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:28.720
And it was really bizarre.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.279
I'm like, how in the world did this happen?
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:33.039
It was a big neighbor dispute.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.640
They were arguing about their lights and their block walls, and you're parking in front of my house.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:39.839
That's my street.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.559
And, you know, just did lots of trying to work through it with them.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:51.359
Um, and I had no idea he'd be sitting there on my panel, you know, five years later.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:58.720
And one of the things he made sure to let me know after the decision was made, he said, I was so happy to see you in that seat.
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:09.599
He said, I was so happy to see To see someone come from a government agency that I had experience with, with you know, no idea that this would come to happen in the future.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:14.160
Um, he just said, you know, it couldn't go have gone to a better person.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:20.720
And not trying to say I'm amazing by any means, but he appreciated the experience that we had together.
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.799
And you never know when those things are gonna just circle back and play a big role.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.119
Well, number one, you are amazing at what you do.
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:38.640
And I think that those stories kind of highlight that, you know, for our folks here, you know, who may be new to the profession, those relationships internally across departments, cities are big.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.240
They're big, big government, big business, you know, big entity.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:42.720
There we go.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.920
That's the word I'm looking for.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.359
They're a big entity.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.880
And you dealt with kind of your niche in code enforcement, right?
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.119
And in your jurisdiction, it dealt with a bunch of stuff.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:57.599
But there were these other parts of your other parts of your city community that you needed to get to know.
00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.440
And you kind of did that out of curiosity.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:08.799
And of course, as you rise through the ranks and you're an assistant city manager, you're now overseeing departments like public works that code enforcement touched on, but wasn't really in their wheelhouse.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.440
And so those internal relationships matter a lot, especially when you're gonna be leading other people.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:14.720
That's what I'm hearing here.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.559
And then uh also, you know, kind of knowing why they do their job and how they do it.
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.359
And then also out in the community, I that's crazy that story.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.079
What a coincidence that that person you dealt with.
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:33.279
But I'll tell you, I had a case once where very similar to that kind of just crazy story where I was litigating just a really hard-fought land use case.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:39.759
And opposing counsel on this on the other side of me was from this massive law firm, and he probably made 10 times more than I did.
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.519
And, you know, we were duking it out, but we were always on the side.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.440
You know, his wife was dealing with cancer.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:46.400
You know, how's she doing?
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.880
Checking it.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.000
First and foremost, how are you?
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.119
How are your family?
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.000
Well, we ended up winning this case, thank goodness.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.319
But it was a heck of a fight over a number of years.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.720
One day I go to one of my other cities, city council, and guess who's the mayor?
00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.920
That guy.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.400
And my contract was up for renewal.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.640
And I thought, uh, does he remember me asking about his wife?
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.160
I mean, do you remember that?
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.599
And and you know, when my contract came up, um, it's not totally uncommon for members of the public to come up and want to comment on that.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.519
And it's usually not positive.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.720
And um, so they'll, you know, criticize it.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.759
And the actually wasn't even a member of the public, it was another council member who, for whatever reason, didn't like me.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.359
And this guy piped up and he said, you know what?
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:36.640
I uh I dealt with Matt for years, and just kind of like your person you dealt with, and ended up being my biggest supporter.
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:38.400
And I couldn't believe it.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:47.039
I was just so florid and thankful that um I had just been a nice person, I guess, during tough circumstances.
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:53.599
So the moral of the story is you never know, you never know when someone you deal with is gonna come back in your life in a way you don't expect.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:56.559
So we should always be doing the right thing for right things' sake.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.480
That's probably gonna be my last long-winded ivory tower comment there.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.559
Um, but I want to get back to you.
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:10.720
So you go from a director over to, and you're actually in a different building to City Hall proper where city management is.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:11.839
How did that happen?
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.039
Because that's the big jump.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:13.920
How did that happen?
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.559
That was the big jump for sure.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:22.880
Going back to wanting to be a deputy, then being super excited about overseeing the sheriff's contract.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.519
Be, I I love everything about the justice system.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:27.119
I love everything, public safety.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:29.359
I love that is my true passion.
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:36.400
And when the position first came up for deputy city manager, um, I was asked to apply.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.559
And I thought, are you out of your mind?
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.319
You know, like all I can get you through anything you need public safety.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.359
We can find a way.
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:51.599
But this might be a little outside of my scope or what I would be able to do successfully.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:26:05.599
And it just comes back to having those relationships, you know, um, having other departments and other teams and leadership and elected saying, hey, no promises, but we'd love to see you put your name in the hat for this.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:17.279
And just like, you know, trying to prepare for that job back at the city of Lancaster and printing the municipal code, I kind of did the same thing, you know, what what does this actually look like?
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.359
And what are the expectations of me?
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.920
And making sure there's a, you know, there's a lot of big decisions to be made.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:32.160
There's a lot of people who depend on you to make the right decision, balancing the relationships with, you know, when to be firm and when to be flexible.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:37.839
And um it it seemed very scary to me at the time.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.400
But, you know, I went through the interview process, went through three interviews and was selected for the job.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.559
And about two and a half years later, was appointed ACM.
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:54.880
So you came over as a deputy city manager, kind of the entry-level at the city manager side, right?
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.960
Um, and then recently became the assistant city manager.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.160
What was it like?
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:01.920
I guess we kind of know, right?
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.519
What interested you in city management?
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:05.839
You had a broader interest in the city government.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:06.559
Is that right?
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:07.359
Absolutely.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:30.799
You know, learning from code and whatnot, learning municipal code ordinances and then being a part of now state legislative and going to Sacramento and meeting with the guys who are making the big decisions that are going to impact our city and being able to have a voice there and have a role in that is exciting, but they all stacked on top of each other to get there.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:43.039
Yeah, and I liked your comment about how in in city management you have to know when to be kind of um flexible and when to uh really have to be a little bit more stern.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.920
And I mean, that is just such the essence of code enforcement.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.759
It's that ebb and flow, like give and take of understanding what's working, what's not, when do I have to escalate things.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:28:02.400
So being in city management, I mean, what do you think it was about your city manager and your city council in selecting you that they thought would be valuable to be a city manager?
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:17.440
You know, it was so when I was the deputy city manager, I oversaw, continued to oversee public safety, and they gave me communications as well, which was is an absolute underestimation of what really goes on behind that.
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:32.960
I mean, that's your billboards, that's your flyers, that's your magazine, that's your talking points for your council members, that's the press, it's all of those things that one wrong little slip there could have a pretty big impact, you know, with the newspapers and the local media and things like that.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.559
And that was assigned to me along with public safety.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:45.519
And probably about six, seven months into it, they said, you know what, we're gonna temporarily assign you public works as well.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:29:04.000
Like we really think the ability to um be resourceful and just kind of get the job done without being a jerk along the way is what they what they appreciated, I guess, or said was my strong suit.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:05.599
So they gave me public works.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.880
I don't know the first thing about that.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.839
You know, that's a$300 million department.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.559
It runs off of um half of the city, half of our full-time staff is assigned to public works.
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:31.440
It's everything from our potholes to our heavy tractors to our sewers to our CIP projects, and you know, these engineers who have very niche um experience and knowledge and projects that they're working on.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.559
And they said, This is your department now, take it and run with it.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:41.839
And I will say what has made it so I don't want to say easy, it's a lot of work.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.279
Um, but what has made it a smooth transition, again, it goes back to the relationships.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.240
It's the people that I've worked with here for the last several years.
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.000
It's the respect that they had.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.400
They welcomed me to their department.
00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:00.079
You know, they're helping, they're acknowledging, we both acknowledged right from the beginning.
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.240
I don't know the details of public works.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.400
I know how to help keep the landmines, uh, keep you away from them.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:15.920
I know the political things that we need to help keep away from, or, you know, the things that maybe aren't their strong suits and just the working together.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:18.000
I said, but you're the subject matter experts.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:24.000
You know, you you help me with what we need to do here, and I will take care of these things for you.
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:33.039
And it's just been very, very respectful relationship that's made the transition very smooth and it's actually working very well.
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:41.680
Do you think the fact that they know that you came from the trenches too and worked your way up is something that gives you credibility with the people you're leading?
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.240
Absolutely.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:43.119
Absolutely.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.000
And even with them.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:50.559
I, you know, I come in in boots and jeans and I've gone on rides, I've pumped sewers, I've trimmed trees, you know.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:57.039
It's being willing and able and appreciating all levels of what the local government has to do.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.440
It really goes a long way.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.039
Yeah, and both ways too.
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.359
It's not just uh for them, it's for you, right?
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.039
You can't lead something you don't understand.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:14.720
I remember when my dad was the city manager, he would drive around with a hard hat in his trunk because he just never knew when he was gonna have to get engaged in something.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:24.000
And yeah, on the weekends he would drive around town or you'd go with the police and see what was going on in the city and make sure that you're leading, you know, from the front and with knowledge.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:31.440
So what now that I mean you're here, how do you think code enforcement and your journey through code enforcement has benefited you as a city manager?
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:40.720
We've got a little sneak peek of that, but if you could style it down into a couple of bullet points, how do you think it's helped you or set you up for success to be a city manager?
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:49.440
Kind of problem solve and be it, be a human, you know, being kind, taking a situation as small as it is.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:32:03.200
You know, you could you think you're going to a house one day for landscape, you show up at the property, you've got squatters, I mean, you've got little kids that aren't being well cared for, you've got animals that aren't being cared for, it ends up being a much bigger situation.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:14.000
And having the ability to just work through those and not come in, drop a hammer, not demand things from people that they may or may not be able to do.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.240
Um, I mean, it's not all perfect, of course.
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:17.839
It's all sunshine and rainbows.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:31.680
So what are some things do you think that coming from a code enforcement background have been a bit of a drawback for you or a challenge for you, or maybe didn't set you up well to be a city manager that you had to kind of like learn later on?
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.359
You know, I'm having a hard time coming up with drawbacks.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:39.599
I really, I'm really thankful for every opportunity.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.960
I'm thankful for every code enforcement case, every single one.
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.240
There's no two alike.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.839
You learn something from every single one working through that.
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:49.920
I don't really have any drawbacks.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:51.440
I'm I'm thankful for it.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:58.079
I wouldn't be here without those skills and without those relationships and without that community partnering.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.839
Um, I don't know where my path would be without that.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:02.880
I'm thankful for it.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.000
I didn't see it coming.
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.480
I didn't align myself early on thinking I'm gonna be a code enforcement officer.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.359
And I certainly never thought I'd be in the city manager's office.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:13.839
That was never a goal of mine.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.039
Um, it's pretty rare.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:23.759
In fact, I used to my knees would chaff, you know, shake when I had to come over and talk to the city manager about maybe something we did right or wrong with the code enforcement case.
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:25.279
Imagine growing up with one.
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:25.759
Yeah.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:33.839
And now just seeing it, it just inspires me to inspire others and to see the team.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.440
You know, it's a great group of guys.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:36.880
I love our public safety team.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.559
I love our code enforcement officers.
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:45.200
And in every single one of them, it's just, I love for them to know and feel you can do whatever you want.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:51.200
You know, if this is if this is where you're happy and complacent and this works for, you know, young families or whatnot, great.
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.359
Let's help you be the best at that you can be.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.119
Let's give you the tools you need to be very successful for that.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:03.039
If you've got other things you'd like to grow, maybe it's in another department, maybe it's within the department.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.720
Let us help you get there too.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.480
There's lots of opportunities.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.559
And I just think being here in this seat, that's what I'm most proud of and excited to be able to do.
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.719
Um I think that's a great point.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.639
I don't, I don't feel like I don't feel like there's odd, there's often an obvious path for code enforcement to city manager.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:32.480
I I'm hearing more people these years in code say, yeah, I want to be a city manager one day, which is something I had not heard for a long time or pretty much ever until recently.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:40.079
But I feel like that path through the jungle is just starting to get created for them to city management.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:47.760
Why should city managers consider hiring code people in particular for deputy assistant jobs?
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.000
And why should city councils be focusing on code enforcement as well as other departments?
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.400
Why?
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.519
Why should they be good assets to promote the city management?
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:59.360
I will also say this with our city.
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:05.760
I would say our city council, the one thing the five of them agree on is public safety and our public safety team.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:07.519
They are very supportive.
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.400
In a sense, they're little heroes to the city.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:19.199
They can, if you've got a problem in any sense of the way, if it's, you know, at a local business, if it's signs out on the streets, if it's whatever it is, everyone goes to code enforcement.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.280
Code enforcement's gonna find a way to get that.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.960
The Swiss Army tool.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:23.679
It really is.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.639
And going back to what you're saying with, you know, when I'm at different city manager conferences and whatnot, and we all talk about where we came from.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.840
I am yet to meet another one who came from code enforcement.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.840
It's usually, you know, econdev or public works.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:44.239
And um, you know, sometimes that makes me like, uh-oh, did I, you know, did I fake it till I made it?
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:45.519
You know, do I belong here?
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.800
And then the other side, I'm like, heck yeah, we belong here.
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:58.800
You know, there's a lot that this department, this team, and this job brings that adds a good layer to the city manager's office, a good benefit, a good value.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.840
Yeah, wonderful.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.280
Well said, absolutely.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:09.599
Uh, I do think code enforcement uh can play a great role role as a city manager for all the reasons that you've talked about in this whole thing.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:19.039
And um, economic development, finance, police chiefs sometimes become city managers, uh, community development, all these are great departments to draw from as well.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:22.320
But code enforcement should have its hat in the ring too.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.519
And rising through the rings to code, you really do touch a lot of stuff.
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:35.760
So if I guess maybe good parting words here for the young Sarah Gallagher coming in to uh code enforced, starting out going, gosh, we could go.
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:36.800
I don't even know what code was.
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:38.159
I had to look it up in the dictionary.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:39.440
Now here we are.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:41.760
What speaking right to them?
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:43.679
What kind of advice would you like to give them?
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:44.719
Embrace it.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.639
Learn every bit that you can.
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.079
Be proud of that job.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:59.599
You know, I tell the team all the time, and I'm not knocking any other professionals, but if you look at, you know, bank tellers, you look at grocery store workers, you look at school teachers, your community has a ton of them.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:07.440
We get to be a part of a very small elite group that is the only group that has the ability to make a huge impact in your community.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:13.199
And I strongly believe that I tell the guys this all the time: be proud of your role.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:21.119
Um, the sky's the limit, you know, just dig in, enjoy it, appreciate it, love it, and let it open doors for you.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.079
I love it.
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:23.519
And that that is so true.
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.519
I think even for, you know, I'll speak for our teammates here at Civica.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:31.920
You know, we are all in this stuff top to bottom because we want to make a positive impact.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.280
It may not always be seen, may not always be appreciated, appreciated.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.480
Sometimes it might be skewed in the media the opposite way.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:39.280
That's incorrect.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:44.159
However, we know, we know that what we're doing and our intentions and that we're we're working with good people, doing good things.
00:37:44.400 --> 00:38:09.360
Sarah, I think this has been a great conversation and uh probably the first that I think I've seen where there is a game plan and a path laid out from young Sarah, all the young Sarah's out there, the young Sals out there who are looking to get you know a job and raise their family and make a difference all the way up through uh to leading a city.
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:11.280
And and by the way, counties too.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:12.800
It can happen in any jurisdiction.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.440
So thank you so much for joining us today.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.519
Thank you for a great and really insightful conversation.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.440
So, folks, thank you for joining us here on another True Code Podcast episode.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:29.280
You know, remember our goal is to highlight the truth about code enforcement and their job and their goals to protect and improve communities.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:30.960
Thank you for listening here today.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:37.360
Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn at True Code Podcast and Instagram at truecode.podcast.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:42.079
If you have episode suggestions, please email us at podcastcivicalaw.com.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.599
And as always, thank you for listening.
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.360
Thank you for doing what you do every day.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:46.400
Take care.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:51.440
Thank you for joining us on this journey.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:57.360
If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:38:58.800
Until next time.
