The Rejected Parent

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Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.
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Today we have a special guest, and I'm super excited because she's coming to us all the way from California.
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And her name is Kathy Himlin, and she's a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she really helps kind of guide people through the process with a high conflict like divorce, anything where, you know, children are involved.
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She's really good at helping people to kind of work through that.
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In fact, she is the author of a book called The Rejected Parent.
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So she has got so many resources.
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And what I find with a lot of people, you know, that I'm working with that the biggest concern that they have is their children and how their children are going to, you know, get through the divorce or, you know, the separation, you know, even if there was an illegal marriage, you know, maybe there's some sort of custody battle for the children.
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And, you know, obviously keeping the children at the center of it all and making sure that you're doing the best for them is the goal.
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So I was very excited though when Kathy decided that she would come on the show and, you know, just kind of share her wisdom.
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So, Kathy, thank you so much for joining us today.
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Thank you.
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This is going to be fun.
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It will be.
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It will be.
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So I'd love for you to kind of walk us through, you know, maybe how did you even get into this field?
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And, you know, why is this like a passion of yours?
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Well, I mean, I've been licensed marriage and family therapist and professional clinical counselor for a long time, been licensed marriage and family therapist for like 30 years and been a therapist for over 35.
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And I started off with families and training with children.
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And then I went into social services or CPS to be a social worker.
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In that, I got exposed to a whole bunch of stuff.
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So when I came back out and went into private practice as a therapist, and I came across one of these cases, I go, wow, a court case that I don't have to be a social worker on, that I could actually help people more than just give them services and the things that I did as a social worker.
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So I got really excited.
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And I love court, silly enough, if that sounds funny as a professional.
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So I love any chance I get to be in a court situation.
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So I just dug into these cases immediately.
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And I thought it was really strange.
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The first one I saw, literally, I used to have a blanket before COVID on my couch and pillows and extra things for kids that get comfy, adults to get comfy.
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And this kiddo took my blanket and put it over their head and wouldn't look at me.
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And they couldn't tell me why they didn't want to see a parent.
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Because I specialize in families with parents that have a child who doesn't want to see them, who's rejected them.
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But this kiddo was like, I don't want to see this parent.
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She could barely talk.
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She couldn't tell me why.
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I dug into the case and I asked to see like the last court document.
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I asked, is there any CPS reports?
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Nothing.
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No domestic violence, no CPS reports, no substance abuse issues, no domestic violence.
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Did I say that already?
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None of those things, no criminal involvement.
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I mean, all I checked all the boxes and she didn't want to see her parent.
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And I'm like, I didn't get that.
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It was so confusing.
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But it was interesting because when I was a CPS worker, those kiddos would beg me to see their parents who had hit them and hurt them in multiple different ways.
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So the dynamic was different.
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These kids wanted to see who had been actually hurt by their parents, wanted to see their parents.
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And the kids who weren't hurt by their parents physically didn't want to see their parents.
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And so that's how I started.
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Because I thought, wow, this field, this area of therapy or this area of family law needs help.
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And then that was just the tip of the iceberg because I didn't realize how prolific it was and how so many cases just like that happen.
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And not to give, you know, there is cases too where there's physical abuse and domestic violence.
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And sure I have those, but I do have those cases still where there's nothing.
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There's no documented anything, anyways.
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So, which, yeah, that's why.
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Because now I'm like, ooh, here's my niche because I love court.
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Family law is way easier than working in dependency court because it's a different level of law.
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And it's not easy to be in it.
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I'm not saying that the trauma that parents go through and families go through is a real thing.
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But when you're talking about actual child abuse and dealing with that level of pain that children go through, it's really different, you know, situation.
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The stakes are higher independency than family law in a lot of ways.
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So as a as a therapist, it's easier on me and my system.
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Yeah.
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So that's yeah, no, I love that.
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And I think that's so interesting.
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So is that kind of what prompted your book was, you know, that you saw more, you know, more and more of these cases where, you know, children just were rejecting a parent, even though, you know, they weren't being physically abused, or, you know, or at least it wasn't documented.
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You know, it wasn't documented that there was mental abuse.
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There was no like clear answer to go, oh, of course you're rejecting that parent.
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You know, so I have to, you know, assume that that is kind of what helped you to, you know, inspire your book, but I'd love to hear from you.
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Right.
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I mean, as I worked with these cases, and I think I've been working with them roughly 10, 12 years or so, I just wasn't making progress like I wanted to.
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And so I started digging into the research, looking into AFCC, the Association for Families and Conciliation Courts, a lot of people hang out there to try to understand the dynamics of family law and high conflict, family law cases.
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And I was just looking for solutions to try to help these families because I was like, why, why, why if we repair, if we're able to talk about whatever the issues are and actually put in a repair, and I can explain that later what I mean by repair, but why isn't this working?
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Why doesn't this kid want to go back or want to even visit or even sit in the room with me and them?
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So I just felt like I needed to reach more people, I needed to figure out a better way.
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Then I sat down and found what I thought was a better way, and I still think it is a better way, and I incorporated attachment parenting into the model of what I was doing, developed an actual family therapy model where I pulled in other things to make it so it was very structured and protective of a child.
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I do not, oh, I'm gonna go down route holes here.
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I do not put, I don't put children straight in the room with a parent for so many reasons.
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I screen them.
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The process in supporting them is also doubles as a process for screening for safety for the children's exposure.
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Because I'm an ex CPS worker, I do not want to re-traumatize a child in my room.
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And since when I first get a case, there could be accusations, there could not be accusations, people haven't come forward yet.
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And I just want to have things shake out for a few weeks before I allow the parent access to that child if they haven't had access.
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So I developed this whole model.
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I'll go back to this and we could talk about that part later if you can keep track of this.
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I developed this model, and on stage two is where I work with a parent.
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And then I thought, ooh, wouldn't it be cool if I could reach more people across the country?
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Because I can only do therapy in California.
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So I developed a parenting class and I ran a parenting class for a little bit.
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It was hard to get people in on the same time.
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So we're dealing with three or four different time zones.
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And I thought, okay, what can I do that could reach even more people?
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It's easier access.
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And then I thought I could write a book.
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So I wrote the book based on the parenting class, based on stage two of my model.
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So that's where the book came from is I wanted to reach more people, have it be more accessible financially, and just accessible.
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You can just pick it up at a bookstore.
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So you could see the different things that I do in parenting class is very similar.
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It's expanded, of course, because it's a book, but to help support those parents that can't make it to a parenting class, or maybe have already taken some other parenting class and didn't get enough out of it, and they want something else, or they just want a little bit of support.
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So that's basically how I wrote this book.
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I really so I just wanted to reach interesting.
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I just wanted to reach more people.
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We keep getting this recording in progress sound.
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I'll say it again.
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I just wanted to reach more people, get to people that wouldn't even think to reach out to me, maybe they couldn't afford my services, whatever it is.
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I just wanted to do that.
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So that's where it comes from.
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And it's it's like I've been doing building blocks of this method and this way that I work with these people.
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And I'm constantly looking to find better ways to work with these families.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, there's my long answer for that one.
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Yeah.
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No, I love it.
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I love it.
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And like I said, I think that, you know, you going through like, you know, the steps and the process and everything help people to understand, you know, kind of where you're coming from and and why this is such a passion for you.
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So I love that, you know, you did kind of dig into it.
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I'd love for you to go through that model though that you were talking about.
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You know, I assume that it's the model that you use when working with a family.
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I love the fact that you start talking with the children first, you know, before the family.
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And I love that you do it separately because yes, you know, a child, you know, has a child has rights and a child, you know, should be treated with the dignity and respect that, you know, that they deserve.
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And so I love the fact that you like talk to them instead of like, oh no, like, you know, the adults are talking right now, like shh, you know, which I think that, you know, happens way too often.
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And I think that that is why we have so many grown-ups now that, you know, are not regulated and are not able to, you know, express themselves because they were told, you know, hush, the adults are talking when they were little.
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So I love that approach.
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So getting giving a child a voice is is the key and is the centerpiece of what we do.
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Well, what I do.
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Safety's number one, always.
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I always have to go there because sometimes people misunderstand what I do because there are people out there that don't think about safety because they don't know what's coming down the line or haven't been in the trenches on really heavy cases before.
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I don't know why, but they they think, well, I guess our old way of learning, our training models for a lot of family therapy models, you have intakes, you jump in and put the parents and the child together.
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I mean, that's sort of what I was trained to do, and that's how I started this too.
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I started doing things like that.
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Intake, put the parent and the child together, but that always crashed and burned, and I figured that doesn't work.
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Stop that really quickly on.
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So, what I do to support the child, and I emphasize, and people say, well, duh, it should be this way, but it isn't in most cases, is this needs to be child-centered anyway.
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It is about the kiddos.
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So, what I do is we have four stages, four stages of this therapy.
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And the first stage is the intake stage.
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So I'm doing an intake individually with each parent because I don't put the two parents together because most of the people I deal with are high conflict cases.
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And so they don't do well together in the beginning.
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At the end, it's my goal that maybe I could get them in the same room together alone and me talk to them about some co-parenting things.
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But that's my that's my wish for them.
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It doesn't always happen.
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But in the first stage, we do intakes with the parents, then I do intake with a child last alone, no parent in the room, even if one of the parents insists on it.
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So if they insist on being there, so I've got an anxious kiddo, I'm fine with that.
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We could have them in there for a little bit, but I do need to ask certain questions of a child without a parent present because otherwise they're being influenced.
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So I do that and I may meet with a child more, or I may meet with a child just one more time before family therapy.
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We will switch into stage two.
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Because in stage one, when I'm talking to the child, I'm figuring out in a way that kids sometimes don't realize what are the issues that are keeping them from wanting to see their parents.
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Just that simple, right?
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I just need to see are they afraid of something?
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Is there something really to be afraid of?
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So I'm assessing for abuse, domestic violence, substance use in the parents and dangerous things in the home.
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I'm assessing for all that without saying a word to anybody.
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And I'm screening for that so I can look for that.
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And when there is domestic violence and stuff that I find out through a child or from one of the parents, I will say this to them, which is which is so telling sometimes.
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I go, okay, okay, I see that you're really scared to be in this situation.
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And then we'll go down this rabbit hole for a second.
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And I and I want to support you in this and make sure we're both safe when we're gonna be in this situation with your parent.
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So do you think I'm safe in the room with your parent?
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And when I say that, and they say no, and I get a chill down my spine, then I try to explore that gently to try to understand what it is.
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I have heard tons of things.
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So this helps me assess the level of safety that this parent has, whether they're very unsafe or not.
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And I've picked up on some pretty nasty dynamics in families by just asking that question.
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It's interesting how a child will sort of report abuse towards them or domestic violence around them.
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But when you ask them directly about whether I'm gonna be safe in a room, they let loose on that question.
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So I've found that to be very, very telling.
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Anyways, that's not all my cases do I get responses to that.
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But I use certain things that are very calculated and used for a reason, and that one is two.
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So I get the list from them, this this list that they don't know I'm making.
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I get permission from them to talk to their parent about their concerns.
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And if they say yes, then we go to stage two.
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If they say no, then I have to taper that and I have to go, okay, well, maybe we could talk about one or two things because they're scared.
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They're thinking they're gonna get retaliation.
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So I try to negotiate maybe one or two things that we could start with.
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Because if we could get this going and I actually have a parent who is safe and who can address these things, then we're gonna be okay and it'll open it up these safety up for the child, and they'll start asking questions once we get into family therapy.
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Anyways, I'm going down all these details of things.
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It's because it's so complicated, it could go so many different ways.
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I just sit back and I go, I have no idea what's gonna happen next.
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I'm just gonna take my cues from the child and take in my information from the parents, and let's see what happens.
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So um, that's the exciting part of it for me.
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It's like, I don't know what I'm getting when I start a family.
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And I never try to predict things either.
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I just react to whatever I'm being given.
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So then we go to stage two, we have this list and I go through it and we develop these valid, what's called validation scripts based on emotion-focused family therapy by Adele LaFrance.
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Not to be confused with Sue Johnson.
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If any of you know couples therapist Sue Johnson, who passed away a few years ago, bless her heart.
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She has a great model too that's attachment, couples attachment.
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But what this is, is Adele LaFrance's uh child and parent attachment.
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And we build scripts around the issues that the children have presented.
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So I'm teaching the parents how to validate their feelings, irregardless of whether they think it happened or not, irregardless of their opinion of the situation.
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This isn't about being defensive and this is not about correcting the narrative.
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This is about recognizing your children's feelings because they do have them, even though I've been told by some parents they don't and they're not important, but that's okay, because they obviously didn't get treated nicely when they were kiddos, or they never would have said that.
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So I teach them that these feelings are important and acknowledging those feelings are important.
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And the only way you're gonna get a relationship back with your child or to improve your relationship with your child if you have some contact is to create safety.
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And the way to create safety is to be able to validate their feelings and to repair attachment ruptures.
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And attachment ruptures are when something goes wrong, the child doesn't feel seen or heard, maybe they got hurt in some way, physically or emotionally, that needs to be addressed and pulled into the light again and apologized for if the apology is necessary and their feelings need to be acknowledged.
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So that's what we spend stage two in.
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And again, that's based, my book is based on the parenting classes based on that.
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So we spend time in that.
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If I can get a parent to be able to sit with me after a little bit of rebellion in the beginning, because they don't get it or they don't agree or they don't something, if I can get them to understand how important this is and how this is going to build safety for the future, then we do a role play.
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And if they can actually role play with me, and as if I'm their kid or their kids in the room and I'm watching, and they're able to be sincere and they really I feel like they get it, then we do family therapy.
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So you can hear there's like all these different, well, you may not be able to hear it, but I I hear it.
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There's these different, different stages of screening I'm doing, right?
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And if there is abuse, if there is domestic violence, I do try to get a read on what the parents think of that.
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Especially if it's been proven that it's happened.
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What do they think of that?
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Are they making excuses?
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Oh, well, the kid deserved it.
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Are they saying stuff like that?
00:18:35.629 --> 00:18:40.430
If there's any of these red flags I pick up on, we don't even go to family therapy.
00:18:40.430 --> 00:18:46.990
Because number one reason I am putting the screening tool in is for safety for the children.
00:18:46.990 --> 00:18:49.230
And that parent has to do their work.
00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:51.869
This is the parent's job to do the work, not the kids.
00:18:51.869 --> 00:18:53.789
And that's another thing that's different.
00:18:53.789 --> 00:19:04.349
So when we get into parent-child therapy, which is not including the second parent, the co-parent, it's just one parent, one child, because that's the relationship that needs to be repaired.
00:19:04.349 --> 00:19:10.589
I make sure that the child is heard and they're not the ones doing any of the work.
00:19:10.589 --> 00:19:18.190
Some people think that, you know, here's a parent, here's a child, and the child has to understand the parent's feelings, the parent has to understand the child's feelings.
00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:19.389
That's not how it works.
00:19:19.389 --> 00:19:20.909
That's couples therapy.
00:19:20.909 --> 00:19:26.430
When you've got two equal, power equal people and equal power to each other is what I meant.
00:19:26.430 --> 00:19:33.869
When you have a parent, they're up here in power, child's down here in power, you don't try to make the one that's under you understand your feelings.
00:19:33.869 --> 00:19:38.109
It's the parent up, the person up here in power that needs to understand this person's feelings.
00:19:38.109 --> 00:19:44.349
So they're the one who have they have to talk, they have to address the feelings, they have to understand the child's world.
00:19:44.349 --> 00:19:46.909
And that's what the goal of that therapy is.
00:19:46.909 --> 00:19:55.950
And if we can do that, and if that parent can genuinely show up to the table and do that, most most of the time the kiddle responds.
00:19:55.950 --> 00:20:03.549
It really depends on how long it's been, because sometimes people come to me after, you know, a year, five years, and there's a lot of damage done.
00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:07.869
So that's difficult to reverse when that's happened, but it does improve things.
00:20:07.869 --> 00:20:09.549
So there's that stage.
00:20:09.549 --> 00:20:23.710
And then if I know I'm jumping through these, we do family therapy, we we go through that and we address each of those things, and then new things start coming up because the child starts feeling better and they start feeling safer and they can actually speak when they want to.
00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:32.269
And I don't mean that they're gonna be rude, I'm just saying that they have a voice, they don't get dismissed, they get to actually expect their parent to understand them.
00:20:32.269 --> 00:20:35.789
And if their parent doesn't in front of me, then I cue them too.
00:20:35.789 --> 00:20:38.670
And if they can't do it in front of me, then I excuse the child.
00:20:38.670 --> 00:20:41.789
Well, I work with the parent again because it's the parents' work.
00:20:41.789 --> 00:20:44.190
And in this stage, they have a lot of control.
00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:46.269
They get to say, like where they sit in the room.
00:20:46.269 --> 00:20:52.269
Some parents have a big problem with that, but it's important because they're being made to come here.
00:20:52.269 --> 00:20:56.909
Why can't they have some sort of agency in what happens and some control?
00:20:56.909 --> 00:21:01.710
Where I sit, they get to tell me where I sit, where they sit, where the parent sits.
00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:07.230
Sometimes I'm on kid chairs, sometimes I'm on a couch between the two, sometimes I'm at my desk.
00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:09.470
I let them choose and it's really cool.
00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:14.589
It empowers them, it gives them a little bit of power in their room because they've never felt that.
00:21:14.589 --> 00:21:19.149
And the other thing I give them is they can leave at any time to go in this other room that I have for them.
00:21:19.149 --> 00:21:24.109
Not go running out of the building, not go into the waiting room to the other parent, but go into the other room.
00:21:24.109 --> 00:21:28.430
So they're allowed to emotionally take a break if they're getting overwhelmed.
00:21:28.430 --> 00:21:32.750
And they don't feel trapped because you don't want a kid in the office that feels trapped.
00:21:32.750 --> 00:21:36.109
Panic attacks, you're dysregulated, they can't take anything in.
00:21:36.109 --> 00:21:37.629
So that's the first three stages.
00:21:37.629 --> 00:21:43.869
The four stages, if everything's going well, which oftentimes it can, then I end up feeling like a fly in the wall.
00:21:43.869 --> 00:21:48.750
And it's almost like I'm doing a therapeutic supervised visitation thing where I'm just sitting there doing nothing.
00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:50.430
I'm really not sitting there doing nothing.
00:21:50.430 --> 00:21:51.789
I'm observing a lot.
00:21:51.789 --> 00:21:55.549
I their interactions are starting to become more organic.
00:21:55.549 --> 00:21:59.549
And if I start talking, the child looks over at me and going, Why are you talking?
00:21:59.549 --> 00:22:04.909
When that starts happening, soon after I start talking about let's go do something outside of here.
00:22:04.909 --> 00:22:07.069
Why don't you guys go have lunch together?
00:22:07.069 --> 00:22:10.029
If it's allowed in the case, of course.
00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:13.069
So, anyway, so that's the four stages.
00:22:13.069 --> 00:22:18.430
And yeah, it makes me feel like I can track all this stuff.
00:22:18.430 --> 00:22:22.750
I I've got it, it's very clear to me when we go to the next stage.
00:22:22.750 --> 00:22:25.389
I tell parents ahead of time what I'm doing.
00:22:25.389 --> 00:22:28.029
So it's not this big mystery, right?
00:22:28.029 --> 00:22:28.430
Yeah.
00:22:28.670 --> 00:22:31.950
So yeah, that was a lot, but that that's it.
00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:34.029
That's my thing that I do.
00:22:34.509 --> 00:22:34.750
Yeah.
00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:35.789
No, I love it.
00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:41.069
And I I love that you have like the structured, you know, like phases that you do.
00:22:41.069 --> 00:22:53.710
And I love the empowering of children because I think that that is that's huge because I think that a lot of children, you know, have never felt like they could be empowered, you know, never felt like they got to choose anything.
00:22:53.710 --> 00:23:03.389
So I think it's huge that, you know, you start that that way because again, it allows the child to, you know, kind of let their guard down a little bit and actually like have a conversation.
00:23:03.389 --> 00:23:08.829
You know, with you and with the parent that maybe they've been, you know, rejecting.
00:23:08.829 --> 00:23:18.269
So I'm sure that with all of, you know, the work that you've done and all the different families that you've done, I'm sure you've seen, uh well, actually, I'm not sure.
00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:31.389
I should ask you, have you seen that there are like patterns, you know, or like certain things that led the child and the parent to become like, you know, for them to start rejecting that parent?
00:23:31.389 --> 00:23:36.509
Like, is there a common theme or themes that you've seen that have led to this?
00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:42.909
Because I'm wondering if anyone listening to this is like, man, my kid like will not talk to me since I started this divorce.
00:23:42.909 --> 00:24:01.309
And, you know, like sometimes I hear, you know, my my ex-spouse is a narcissist and they have turned them against me, you know, and like those have, you know, different implications versus, you know, just maybe the kid just decided to take, you know, one spouse's side instead of the other one.
00:24:01.309 --> 00:24:04.349
So I'd love to hear kind of what you've what you've uncovered.
00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:04.909
Right.
00:24:04.909 --> 00:24:08.029
I mean, there's different, it's, it's, it's not black and white.
00:24:08.029 --> 00:24:10.349
And there is different patterns that I've observed.
00:24:10.349 --> 00:24:14.829
And I do put that in my book too, the the reasons why a child may be rejecting you.
00:24:14.829 --> 00:24:20.509
And it could be in part because of your co-parent, that happens.
00:24:20.509 --> 00:24:23.149
I mean, I mean, people call parental alienation.
00:24:23.149 --> 00:24:29.389
There's, I think that we need to be a little bit less, everybody's doing parental alienation and everyone's abusing a child.
00:24:29.389 --> 00:24:32.750
There, it, there's some gray areas in here that people aren't looking at.
00:24:32.750 --> 00:24:35.149
It's not so black and white.
00:24:35.149 --> 00:24:57.549
And I think that even if you have a parent who may be looking like they're influencing their child not to see you, there's actually some things that you probably can identify because if you call me up and laid out everything that you've said and done with that child, like the before, like maybe six months to a year before the rejection, I could probably find the thing that you're doing that contributed to it.
00:24:57.549 --> 00:25:10.430
And that's part of the book is like I really, you know, want parents, and I'll explain this in a second, to understand that yeah, it it could be partially your co-parent, but I bet you you've done something to contribute to.
00:25:10.430 --> 00:25:19.950
Because if if they've shown up, a lot of times when parents feel like the other parents against them, and I'm starting parents over here, they're co-parents against them, pulling the child away.
00:25:19.950 --> 00:25:27.789
There's so many reasons why a co-parent does that that maybe technically meets the criteria for parental alienation, but really isn't purposeful.
00:25:27.789 --> 00:25:28.190
Okay.
00:25:28.190 --> 00:25:30.990
So there's a lot of co-parents out there that are anxious and stuff.
00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:53.789
But, anyways, even if this is going on, if you get frustrated, and this is a pattern I see, is that the parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling a kid pulling away, that's stopping seeing them on their visitation time, limits them to like a dinner, isn't going overnights, and that progression that starts to happen before the full rejection happens, a lot of times there is a progression into it.
00:25:53.789 --> 00:26:04.990
The parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling like their child's being pulled away, oftentimes will do all kinds of tactical things to get their kid back.
00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:11.710
One of them could be hey, you know, if you want your Christmas presents this year, you'll come over during the time.
00:26:11.710 --> 00:26:15.389
Or you want your birthday presents, or I'm gonna keep your birthday presents so you come over here.
00:26:15.389 --> 00:26:16.909
So they're not really taking things away.
00:26:16.909 --> 00:26:19.149
They're just trying to get the, you know, lure them in.
00:26:19.149 --> 00:26:20.109
Like they're desperate.
00:26:20.109 --> 00:26:23.950
They want their kids and they don't know why it's happening, they don't know what's going on.
00:26:23.950 --> 00:26:25.389
That's something that they do.
00:26:25.389 --> 00:26:29.309
And what that actually does is push them away more, but they don't understand that.
00:26:29.309 --> 00:26:31.710
Because they think they're entitled to their children.
00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:33.149
Yes, those are their children.
00:26:33.149 --> 00:26:38.670
They're technically children are children are entitled to a healthy relationship with both parents.
00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:40.430
Yes, that's true.
00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:44.190
And you can't coerce them into coming to you.
00:26:44.190 --> 00:26:50.750
You can't manipulate them because if you do that, they know it and they're gonna feel threatened by it and they're gonna stay away from you.
00:26:50.750 --> 00:26:52.029
Now they have a real reason.
00:26:52.029 --> 00:27:04.589
If they thought they had a reason before that maybe was a made-up reason, or maybe it was some other reason in their head or their other parents, uh, the co-parents' head, you have now put cement on that, and now they're not gonna see you because of your behavior.
00:27:04.589 --> 00:27:08.909
So I'll see the coercive stuff, I'll see the threats, you know.
00:27:08.909 --> 00:27:13.230
I've seen people empty bank accounts and say, I'm taking your savings away.
00:27:13.230 --> 00:27:22.670
I've see people, you have to be respectful of me, and they get loud and they they get really forceful in their language and their tone changes and they get a little scary.
00:27:22.670 --> 00:27:25.149
And they do things like that.
00:27:25.149 --> 00:27:37.629
So when they're like that, I challenge anyone who's who has a kiddo that's not wanting to see them to look back and go, okay, how have I been in the last times that I was interacting with my child?
00:27:37.629 --> 00:27:38.829
How was I really?
00:27:38.829 --> 00:27:44.029
Really take an honest look at what you've been and what you've done around them.
00:27:44.029 --> 00:27:47.629
Did I scream at my co-parent in front of my kid?
00:27:47.629 --> 00:27:51.549
Did I slam a door because I was upset?
00:27:51.549 --> 00:27:57.309
These are things that scare children and they feel threatened by them.
00:27:57.309 --> 00:28:15.389
Even if you got provoked by your co-parent who may have said something under their breath, may have sent you a nasty ground text or something on a co-parenting app that really upset you or did something in court, and you come at the next transition and scream at them for it, and you do it in front of your child, that's going to cause a rejection.
00:28:15.389 --> 00:28:20.990
And that's a real reason to be rejected because that scares the crap out of them and they want to stay with a safe parent.
00:28:20.990 --> 00:28:32.269
So those are things that some of the things that uh parents do that they don't even think about because they're in reaction to the situation they're in and they're in reaction to the co-parent.
00:28:32.269 --> 00:28:36.109
And frankly, a lot of parents I meet aren't monsters.
00:28:36.109 --> 00:28:38.109
Some people call them monsters.
00:28:38.109 --> 00:28:39.069
They're not.
00:28:39.069 --> 00:28:51.710
They're they're normal people like you and me who got put into an extraordinary stressful situation and a feeling where they were losing their kid, and they start acting in ways they have never acted in their entire life.
00:28:51.710 --> 00:28:53.629
They turn into different people.
00:28:53.629 --> 00:28:54.430
Yeah.
00:28:54.430 --> 00:28:56.109
And I don't blame them.
00:28:56.109 --> 00:28:59.149
So that's one thing that happens for a reason.
00:28:59.149 --> 00:29:07.869
And the other reasons are reasons the kids have, reasons the situation, and the reasons the co-parent actually helps to push along.
00:29:07.869 --> 00:29:11.470
If you want me to go in those, I'm happy to go into some of those.
00:29:11.470 --> 00:29:13.389
So many things.
00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:31.869
No, I just think this is so fascinating because, you know, as you're like, as you're talking about stuff, and you know, I'm thinking back to, you know, my own personal experience, and I'm also thinking about like clients, and and it is, it's so easy to get triggered by that other co-parent.
00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:41.389
They can send you, you know, the most condescending text message or condescending email, or they say something really, you know, shitty under their breath.
00:29:41.389 --> 00:29:45.309
And, you know, like it can, it can send you spiraling.
00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:59.869
And I get it because, you know, I've gotten to that point sometimes where I'm just like, ugh, you know, I've been able to hold it in in front of my child, you know, but I also have just really wanted to just, you know, lose, lose my shit on them, you know.
00:29:59.869 --> 00:30:03.629
So like, so I I get exactly like what you're talking about.
00:30:03.629 --> 00:30:10.430
And it does, you know, take a level of, you know, calmness to really just go, okay, you know what?
00:30:10.430 --> 00:30:12.509
I can feel how I feel, but guess what?
00:30:12.509 --> 00:30:14.109
Like this is about my child.
00:30:14.109 --> 00:30:17.149
So that that will stay over here in this compartment.
00:30:17.149 --> 00:30:20.990
And this right here is just my interaction with you, with our child, and that's it.
00:30:21.309 --> 00:30:22.670
And it's hard to be regulated.
00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:24.509
That's the whole point that I bring in there too.
00:30:24.509 --> 00:30:34.029
That when you're in a divorce, in a high custody, high, high custody, high contested divorce where it's a lot of stress, then this is trauma.
00:30:34.029 --> 00:30:35.389
This is this is trauma.
00:30:35.389 --> 00:30:36.909
You've got a system that's broken.
00:30:36.909 --> 00:30:48.029
You've got, you may have an attorney that's acting like you feel and acting out their own personal stuff with their past divorce or their issues around divorce or their childhood.
00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:50.109
And it's dysregulating.
00:30:50.109 --> 00:30:51.789
This this is just a thing.
00:30:51.789 --> 00:30:54.349
The system just goes in and messes up families.
00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:58.029
And I can honestly say that because I sit there and watch it every day.
00:30:58.029 --> 00:31:00.750
So it's hard to regulate.
00:31:00.750 --> 00:31:04.430
And I think one of the big things, like I talk about again, I don't mean to keep talking about the book.
00:31:04.430 --> 00:31:08.190
I'm like looking at it, going, it's right there in that chapter, about regulating yourself.
00:31:08.190 --> 00:31:16.269
If you could find a way to get regulated so your co-parent isn't triggering, triggering you, so the situation isn't triggering you.
00:31:16.269 --> 00:31:18.190
It could be anybody that could trigger you.
00:31:18.190 --> 00:31:23.789
A judge could just decide to side with your co-parent and do the opposite of what you think is right, or something like that.
00:31:23.789 --> 00:31:36.990
Or, or you've got an attorney that's not very empathetic to your situation and takes off and does this whole big declaration without telling you, and you don't even read it because you think that they did the declaration, declaration the way you wanted them to.
00:31:36.990 --> 00:31:41.069
And then there's all this inflammatory things and they're starting a bigger fight with your co-parent.
00:31:41.069 --> 00:31:42.430
I've seen that happen too.
00:31:42.430 --> 00:31:48.670
So there's so many things that can beat you down and make you feel like you're completely out of control.
00:31:48.670 --> 00:31:51.309
You're right, the system's in control.
00:31:51.309 --> 00:31:53.230
Once you get in that system, it takes off.
00:31:53.230 --> 00:32:00.829
And unless you have a good judge with an honest, good attorney that's regulated themselves, you're gonna have a really hard time in the system.
00:32:00.829 --> 00:32:03.869
So I don't blame parents for getting in that space.
00:32:03.869 --> 00:32:05.470
I'm just saying, either.
00:32:05.470 --> 00:32:16.029
I'm just saying, man, if you could regulate yourself so you're not reactive, you know, and the camera, the cameras, the phone cameras like they go at you in a transition.
00:32:16.029 --> 00:32:19.950
If that starts happening, don't react to it, right?
00:32:19.950 --> 00:32:22.109
Just call your attorney.
00:32:22.109 --> 00:32:23.149
Report it.
00:32:23.149 --> 00:32:26.190
It's illegal unless the judge told you to do it.
00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:31.629
But don't start a fight over things like that because then you do that in front of the kid, and then that's really hard.
00:32:31.629 --> 00:32:35.950
But yeah, so many things people don't think about because you're just being human.
00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:42.349
You're in an inhuman situation being human, and then you get punished for it if the kid gets exposed to it.
00:32:42.349 --> 00:32:44.589
And they this shouldn't even be getting to this point.
00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:48.269
I think that divorce should be transactional and it should not be in court.
00:32:48.269 --> 00:32:54.509
It's this isn't criminal court, this isn't CPS, this isn't civil court where we're doing a lawsuit with that.
00:32:54.509 --> 00:33:06.190
We don't need to have a jury, which we don't have, but we don't need to have all this judgment and stuff unless there's real stuff going on, like domestic violence and child abuse, and kick those up to the courts that deal with that stuff.
00:33:06.190 --> 00:33:07.950
But that's just my opinion.
00:33:08.190 --> 00:33:08.509
Yeah.
00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:11.149
Yeah.
00:33:11.149 --> 00:33:11.629
Yeah.
00:33:11.629 --> 00:33:12.589
No, I agree.
00:33:12.589 --> 00:33:32.670
And I I love that you have taken the approach that you have, because I think that, you know, yes, there's a lot of like, you know, family therapists out there, there's a lot of children therapists out there, but you know, there's not a lot of, you know, at least that I know of, of people that are really looking at it, you know, kind of from the lens that you are and empowering the child.
00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:34.509
I love that you created that book.
00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:38.990
You know, it's it clearly has so many resources in it.
00:33:38.990 --> 00:33:45.069
So I will definitely make sure that there is a link in, you know, in the show notes so anyone can find it.
00:33:45.069 --> 00:33:52.029
Because I think that, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, oh my gosh, like I, you know, that like this is really resonating with me.
00:33:52.029 --> 00:33:57.389
You know, I love that there is that resource out there because I just think, you know, knowledge is power.
00:33:57.389 --> 00:34:01.950
And the more, you know, knowledge you can get, the more powerful you are for yourself.
00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:10.030
I also love the fact that you talk about being regulated because I think that's one of the things that isn't talked about enough.
00:34:10.030 --> 00:34:24.030
You know, just when you're going through the divorce, you know, it's a lot of the reason why I created Thrive and Decide is because, you know, when you're going through the divorce, you are so lost in emotion that you're not thinking about, you know, how like all the things.
00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:29.550
You're not thinking about, I need to change my beneficiaries, I need to, you know, figure out what I'm gonna do with the house.
00:34:29.550 --> 00:34:32.750
I need to figure out, you know, like just you're not thinking about all those things.
00:34:32.750 --> 00:34:36.110
You're just thinking about the loss that you, that you had.
00:34:36.110 --> 00:34:47.789
And so it takes a while to get regulated and to be able to, you know, keep those emotions at bay so that you do keep that, you know, child at the forefront of everything.
00:34:47.789 --> 00:34:51.070
And, you know, it's like I always say, like, divorce isn't fair.
00:34:51.070 --> 00:34:52.909
Nothing about divorce is fair.
00:34:52.909 --> 00:34:54.269
There's not one thing about it.
00:34:54.269 --> 00:34:55.869
You can't split children in half.
00:34:55.869 --> 00:34:58.349
You can't, you know, you can't split a house in half.
00:34:58.349 --> 00:35:02.510
Like, you know, there's like there's just a lot of things that there's that it's not fair.
00:35:02.510 --> 00:35:10.269
So I love, again, that you're going through this and helping because I think that, you know, it's a topic that people don't, they don't talk about.
00:35:10.269 --> 00:35:18.670
And, you know, there are a lot of parents out there that are feeling rejected by their kids and, you know, maybe they don't realize, you know, why.
00:35:18.670 --> 00:35:22.269
And I love the fact too that you're basically like, put a mirror up.
00:35:22.269 --> 00:35:28.750
Like, yes, your spouse could be the one that is triggering you, but like look in the mirror and see why is that triggering you?
00:35:28.750 --> 00:35:31.389
And how can you keep it from triggering you?
00:35:31.389 --> 00:35:33.309
And I know that sounds so hard.
00:35:33.309 --> 00:35:36.110
Like when you're in the middle of it, trust me, I get it.
00:35:36.110 --> 00:35:53.230
But if you can like really like step back, do whatever it is that regulates you, taking a walk, putting your feet in grass, like taking a shower, like any of the things that ground you, you know, you're gonna find it so much easier to move through because it you're not gonna no longer be worried about it's not fair.
00:35:53.230 --> 00:35:58.429
You're gonna be more worried about like, okay, how do we just get through this and focus on our kids?
00:35:58.750 --> 00:35:59.389
Right, right.
00:35:59.389 --> 00:36:08.269
And focusing on the kids is the big thing that doesn't happen because when we're dysregulated as parents, then when anybody's dysregulated, you're not thinking of other people.
00:36:08.269 --> 00:36:12.670
You're trying to calm your system down, you're trying to fight for yourself.
00:36:12.670 --> 00:36:16.190
And it isn't that we're selfish or narcissistic or anything like that.
00:36:16.190 --> 00:36:17.070
I'm not saying that.
00:36:17.070 --> 00:36:19.869
It's just that's just the nature of being dysregulated.
00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:24.509
Your frontal lobe, your right and left brains as a train is off the track.
00:36:24.509 --> 00:36:25.710
It's not working.
00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:28.909
That's your way to problem solve and reason through things.
00:36:28.909 --> 00:36:38.190
When you're got your amygdala or your lizard brain or whatever, fight or flight, however you look at it, brain going, that's all it's focused on.
00:36:38.190 --> 00:36:40.750
You're in a burning building, and how can you get out of it?
00:36:40.750 --> 00:36:41.469
That's it.
00:36:41.469 --> 00:36:43.469
And that doesn't mean it's it's your fault.
00:36:43.469 --> 00:36:46.349
It doesn't mean there's a fault in your personality either.
00:36:46.349 --> 00:36:52.429
The family law system, as it's designed right now, is set up to dysregulate everybody in it, including a judge.
00:36:52.429 --> 00:36:57.070
I have haven't seen very many that are too, they seem calm, but they're confused.
00:36:57.070 --> 00:36:58.509
Nothing against judges.
00:36:58.509 --> 00:37:02.750
Attorneys, likewise, they're going in fight, fight, fight.
00:37:02.750 --> 00:37:05.789
Most of them, I mean, that's all dysregulated.
00:37:05.789 --> 00:37:10.190
And and it's just, I don't know, it's so messy.
00:37:10.190 --> 00:37:11.230
How could you not?
00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:19.230
The most reasonable person that had the best upbringing can step into a divorce and and become someone different.
00:37:19.230 --> 00:37:21.070
It's just really, really hard.
00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:30.110
So I think there's a lot of shame when things make people make mistakes, and they need to realize that they're in a system that's set up to make them make those mistakes.
00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:34.110
And it's not that there's this evil entity creating this thing.
00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:35.949
It's just the nature of the system.
00:37:35.949 --> 00:37:46.269
And so they need to give themselves grace because that's the only way you're gonna regulate yourself again, is give yourself grace and not spiral into a shame, blame, spiral if you can.
00:37:46.269 --> 00:37:48.190
And if you can't, do that on your own.
00:37:48.190 --> 00:37:49.070
Go seek some help.
00:37:49.070 --> 00:37:55.469
Go get a coach, go get a therapist, do something to help ground yourself because you don't have to be so reactive in this.
00:37:55.469 --> 00:37:56.670
You don't have to.
00:37:56.670 --> 00:37:59.710
It's easy to be, but you don't have to, right?
00:37:59.710 --> 00:38:00.509
Yeah.
00:38:00.509 --> 00:38:05.630
And as far as like I'm thinking about sorry, I'm getting over a cold.
00:38:05.630 --> 00:38:06.670
You're okay.
00:38:06.670 --> 00:38:08.909
And my voice goes once in a while.
00:38:08.909 --> 00:38:14.110
Um, about children and what can we do to help if you can we talk about that?
00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:18.909
What can we do to help them get through divorce more successfully so they don't go repeating patterns?
00:38:18.909 --> 00:38:25.309
Number one, later on in their own relationships, and number two, that they're not falling apart.
00:38:26.029 --> 00:38:26.269
Yeah.
00:38:26.509 --> 00:38:28.829
How can you tell if a kid's starting to fall apart?
00:38:28.829 --> 00:38:32.110
I'm gonna start with that because that's the first thing I look at.
00:38:32.110 --> 00:38:33.150
How's their sleep?
00:38:33.150 --> 00:38:34.429
Has their sleep changed?
00:38:34.429 --> 00:38:35.309
How's their eating?
00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:36.349
Has their eating changed?
00:38:36.349 --> 00:38:37.789
These are two basic things.
00:38:37.789 --> 00:38:39.230
Are the grades slipping?
00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:41.789
Are the grades getting alarmingly better?
00:38:41.789 --> 00:38:44.029
That's also another sign, honestly.
00:38:44.029 --> 00:38:45.869
Are they withdrawn for their friends?
00:38:45.869 --> 00:38:48.509
Are they going into the room and spending more time alone?
00:38:48.509 --> 00:38:53.550
I would pay attention to that stuff because that's a sign of functioning.
00:38:53.550 --> 00:39:02.590
And if they're saying, hey, I don't want to play football anymore, I don't want to go to dance, I'm, you know, this has been too much, you know, maybe after you two figure out where we're living, I'll do it again.
00:39:02.590 --> 00:39:10.429
Now, the best thing to do for kids, and if they're doing that, you want to try to get them more engaged with their peers.
00:39:10.429 --> 00:39:12.989
You want to get them involved in activities.
00:39:12.989 --> 00:39:16.509
You want their day-to-day activities to remain the same.
00:39:16.509 --> 00:39:30.110
I see parents make this mistake, and I will call it a mistake, and they yank kids out of soccer, football, gymnastics, dance, whatever, right when the divorce starts because they can't afford it or they don't have time to transport.
00:39:30.110 --> 00:39:35.070
Oh, that's the worst thing you could do because kids need consistency.
00:39:35.070 --> 00:39:43.469
I mean, there's so much literature, like through trauma exposure, like you know, when we were having the fires out here, we there's a whole these studies and stuff on these kids.
00:39:43.469 --> 00:39:52.909
The best thing you can do, and when they brought counselors into these schools when we were having fires and they were trying to counsel them and the parents, like, keep their routines the same.
00:39:52.909 --> 00:39:55.389
So try to keep the routines the same.
00:39:55.389 --> 00:40:00.670
If you used to make pancakes on Sunday, keep making those pancakes on Sunday.
00:40:00.670 --> 00:40:05.070
Even if you have to make them ahead of time and heat them up in the microwave, do that.
00:40:05.070 --> 00:40:08.110
If they were in soccer, keep them in soccer if you can.
00:40:08.110 --> 00:40:10.909
I mean, usually we pay ahead of time for things like that.
00:40:10.909 --> 00:40:12.989
Don't make major changes like that.
00:40:12.989 --> 00:40:17.869
If they got to go to grandma's on Saturday night to go make cookies with them, I don't know why I'm thinking of baking.
00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:19.550
I guess I was baking the other day.
00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:28.829
Or go and whatever they do with grandma or grandpa or whatever, or an aunt and uncle, don't change those things because they need to have consistency.
00:40:28.829 --> 00:40:31.789
That's like an easy low-hanging fruit you can do.
00:40:31.789 --> 00:40:34.110
Keep that if you're able, right?
00:40:34.110 --> 00:40:35.469
You have a co-parent.
00:40:35.469 --> 00:40:38.989
So sometimes co-parents don't get along in the beginning, especially.
00:40:38.989 --> 00:40:45.550
Maybe it can't happen, but of all the things you can do is try to keep it consistent and the same.
00:40:45.550 --> 00:40:50.670
And the other thing is, is kids are way more aware than you think they are.
00:40:50.670 --> 00:40:53.949
Don't have phone calls in your house when they're there.
00:40:53.949 --> 00:41:03.150
If you need to have a phone call with a friend or an attorney or a therapist or somebody, do it outside the house where they cannot hear you for sure.
00:41:03.150 --> 00:41:05.869
Go for a walk if you can, if your kids are old enough.
00:41:05.869 --> 00:41:06.989
Don't let them hear that.
00:41:06.989 --> 00:41:10.029
Or better yet, wait until they're in school.
00:41:10.029 --> 00:41:11.389
They're not in the house.
00:41:11.389 --> 00:41:14.829
I guarantee you, if you think they're sleeping, they're not.
00:41:14.829 --> 00:41:25.550
If you're having a conversation about this divorce, they are at their door listening, or they're at the top of the stairs, or they're at the end of the hallway, whatever your configuration of your living situation is.
00:41:25.550 --> 00:41:29.309
I can't even tell you how many kids, but the majority of them are listening.
00:41:29.309 --> 00:41:40.750
And they're they're little sleuths and they're like little Sherlock Holmes, and they're trying to figure out what mom and dad are doing, or dad and dad, or mom and mom are doing, whatever the configuration is, they're trying to figure it out.
00:41:40.750 --> 00:41:44.509
And so they're listening and they're paying attention and they're picking up on these little things.
00:41:44.509 --> 00:41:47.789
You take them to a park and you're talking to a friend on the phone.
00:41:47.789 --> 00:41:51.630
You better make sure you're you're not within hearing distance because they'll hear you.
00:41:51.630 --> 00:41:58.429
So try to block exposure to court documents and court phone calls.
00:41:58.429 --> 00:42:02.829
Don't even tell them the court exists, would be my preference.
00:42:02.829 --> 00:42:06.750
And not that there's a court date happening ever if they know court exists.
00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:13.949
Because sometimes kids are represented by minors counsel or child's counsel, whatever they're called in your particular area.
00:42:13.949 --> 00:42:19.630
So they know court exists, but they don't need to know when the court date is because that guess what happens?
00:42:19.630 --> 00:42:21.150
They get anxious.
00:42:21.150 --> 00:42:24.509
Yeah, they're just stressed about it, totally stressed about it.
00:42:24.509 --> 00:42:28.989
And now you've just put your child in the middle of an adult battle that they shouldn't have anything to do with.
00:42:28.989 --> 00:42:33.710
They need to just live their life peacefully as if this is happening over here and they're over here.
00:42:33.710 --> 00:42:34.909
And let's try to keep it separate.
00:42:34.909 --> 00:42:48.670
So if there's any way, and even if you've already started exposing things to them, if you could just stop, you probably will see a decrease in anxiety and acting out or whatever it is that's going on with your child if you can just stop exposing them to court stuff.
00:42:48.670 --> 00:42:52.829
And the other thing is the predictability of going back and forth between parents.
00:42:52.829 --> 00:43:01.070
What I recommend, even for teenagers, is having a calendar in each house and putting on there when they're going to be a dad or mom's house.
00:43:01.070 --> 00:43:02.829
And you have stickers for each of them.
00:43:02.829 --> 00:43:06.750
If they're teenagers, you could just have them write the names so they can see it.
00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:12.269
For littles, even four-year-olds or three-year-olds, have them pick out stickers.
00:43:12.269 --> 00:43:20.190
You help them put them up on the days that they're supposed to see the other parent or you, and then help them cross the days off as they go.
00:43:20.190 --> 00:43:22.909
They don't need to know how to read a calendar for this to work.
00:43:22.909 --> 00:43:24.269
But you know what this does?
00:43:24.269 --> 00:43:29.710
This makes them feel like they know what's going to happen next in their lives.
00:43:29.710 --> 00:43:32.750
Like they don't need to know about court, but this is day-to-day life stuff.
00:43:32.750 --> 00:43:34.190
So they know what's going to happen next.
00:43:34.190 --> 00:43:37.389
So it's not just this thing happening to them that's out of their control.
00:43:37.389 --> 00:43:45.710
And that's partially why kids act out during a divorce, is they they aren't being informed of the things they do need to know, and they're being informed of the things they should never know.
00:43:45.710 --> 00:43:46.670
Yeah.
00:43:46.670 --> 00:43:48.989
So that's very helpful.
00:43:48.989 --> 00:43:50.429
Sit down and talk to them.
00:43:50.429 --> 00:43:56.829
If you're about to get a divorce and you haven't gotten one, then find out how to sit with them with a book.
00:43:56.829 --> 00:44:00.989
There's so many cool books, and I wonder if I have any of these in my bookshelf right now.
00:44:00.989 --> 00:44:03.230
Like Coco Bear, it's not your fault.
00:44:03.230 --> 00:44:05.150
That's one, two homes.
00:44:05.150 --> 00:44:07.550
And I'm I'm sorry, I'm gonna look off for a second.
00:44:07.550 --> 00:44:12.269
I love this.
00:44:12.269 --> 00:44:13.869
I have a few books.
00:44:13.869 --> 00:44:18.269
I mean, here's one when my parents forgot how to be friends.
00:44:18.269 --> 00:44:19.869
Sometimes it doesn't apply.
00:44:19.869 --> 00:44:20.509
Yeah.
00:44:20.509 --> 00:44:24.029
Jennifer Moramalinos.
00:44:24.029 --> 00:44:26.269
I may have said her name wrong.
00:44:26.269 --> 00:44:27.630
But this is a nice one.
00:44:27.630 --> 00:44:30.029
Another one is Two Homes, which is really good.
00:44:30.029 --> 00:44:31.869
Cocoa Bear, it's not your fault.
00:44:31.869 --> 00:44:37.789
I don't have those books with me, but I use those in my practice because it sort of walks it through.
00:44:37.789 --> 00:44:41.070
Because again, kids take responsibility for a divorce.
00:44:41.070 --> 00:44:42.509
They think it's their fault.
00:44:42.509 --> 00:44:43.869
A lot of them do.
00:44:43.869 --> 00:44:46.349
They may never ever say it, right?
00:44:46.349 --> 00:44:47.070
But they do.
00:44:47.070 --> 00:44:48.909
So you want to try to like preempt that.
00:44:48.909 --> 00:44:52.989
And if you're going to explain that a divorce is going to happen, Cocoa Bear, it's not your fault.
00:44:52.989 --> 00:44:59.150
If you have like a preteen or younger, that is such a beautiful book because one, it's it's gender neutral.
00:44:59.150 --> 00:45:03.389
Two, you could talk about how both parents love that bear.
00:45:03.389 --> 00:45:11.150
But it's got they did nothing, it's not your fault part, and it's such a beautiful book, it's just an easy reading book.
00:45:11.150 --> 00:45:15.309
So it sort of shows a kid in a preschool, but it applies to anybody.
00:45:15.309 --> 00:45:19.550
There's just things like that you could do to just sit down and acknowledge it.
00:45:19.550 --> 00:45:25.710
And the the message they need to get, even if you don't use a book, is hey, we're gonna be splitting up homes.
00:45:25.710 --> 00:45:34.110
And if you can say this, if it applies, we don't love each other, we're not gonna be with each other anymore, but we love you and care for you, and you're always gonna be well taken care of.
00:45:34.110 --> 00:45:37.070
One of us will always be with you at any time.
00:45:37.070 --> 00:45:45.710
We're gonna be doing things a little different, we'll explain that later, but we're we want to let you know because when you just get a divorce and start splitting up, and the kids are like, What is going?
00:45:45.710 --> 00:45:47.630
Why did dad or mom move out?
00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:50.829
I mean, that that's just too hard on them, right?
00:45:50.829 --> 00:45:56.750
So letting them have some awareness, label to what's going on is a good thing.
00:45:56.750 --> 00:45:59.309
And I know some people are like, Oh, we're always gonna love each other.
00:45:59.309 --> 00:45:59.630
Great.
00:45:59.630 --> 00:46:01.789
Then don't say that, say something different.
00:46:01.789 --> 00:46:02.670
Yeah.
00:46:02.670 --> 00:46:05.789
You know, I've had people do that.
00:46:05.789 --> 00:46:07.550
I'm like, it's cool, that's cool.
00:46:07.550 --> 00:46:09.869
This is just an example of what I do with kids.
00:46:09.869 --> 00:46:12.909
It and if parents need it, they can get a therapist to do that with them.
00:46:12.909 --> 00:46:15.070
Like I do that with parents too.
00:46:15.070 --> 00:46:16.190
I offer that.
00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:23.389
So letting them know that and keeping them in the regular schedule and not exposing them, that all that stuff will go a long way.
00:46:23.389 --> 00:46:32.509
And if you see other things happening, they're eating, sleeping, school performance, social engagement starts changing, then it might be time to get a therapist for them.
00:46:32.509 --> 00:46:37.150
But they don't automatically need a therapist just because you're going through a divorce.
00:46:37.389 --> 00:46:37.789
Yeah.
00:46:38.029 --> 00:46:39.789
Because it's not, they're not the problem.
00:46:40.029 --> 00:46:40.269
Right.
00:46:40.429 --> 00:46:41.150
That's not the problem.
00:46:41.150 --> 00:46:43.550
They're just reacting to the family, splitting up.
00:46:43.550 --> 00:46:44.829
That's all it is.
00:46:45.230 --> 00:46:45.789
Yeah.
00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:47.309
No, I love that.
00:46:47.309 --> 00:46:59.309
And I love your approach, and and I love that you say, you know, because I think that sometimes, you know, parents do they're they're well meaning, but they're like, well, I'm in therapy, they need to be in therapy, you know, they like they need to work through this.
00:46:59.309 --> 00:47:02.110
And it's like, well, I mean, maybe, but maybe not.
00:47:02.110 --> 00:47:14.750
Maybe they could, you know, just like if you're just supporting them and, you know, in the ways that you've just like, you know, given as examples, then they wouldn't actually need, you know, any further, you know, therapy.
00:47:14.750 --> 00:47:18.190
Although I think everyone needs therapy at, you know, some point in their life.
00:47:18.909 --> 00:47:22.750
But I mean, kids just don't automatically know need need it because of a divorce.
00:47:22.750 --> 00:47:34.750
I think that the majority of the kids I see when they get put into therapy, the reason why they're in therapy is because their parents have withdrawn and there's they're not paying attention to their kid as much.
00:47:34.750 --> 00:47:36.829
There's fighting they're exposed to.
00:47:36.829 --> 00:47:39.070
There's something within the family that's happening.
00:47:39.070 --> 00:47:40.750
So they're they're reacting to something.
00:47:40.750 --> 00:47:44.190
It isn't that they have an issue they need to work through.
00:47:44.190 --> 00:47:59.630
What really would be better in these situations, and you're right, I think everyone should have therapy eventually, but the young kids don't necessarily need it because if their parents were grounded and they were focused on what the child needs, the child wouldn't even feel the pain of the divorce.
00:47:59.630 --> 00:48:00.429
Yeah.
00:48:00.429 --> 00:48:06.509
So the therapy sometimes serves as a band-aid for something that needs to be happening at home.
00:48:06.509 --> 00:48:12.829
And I find myself working more with parents if I'm seeing a child individually than I do with the child itself.
00:48:12.829 --> 00:48:18.670
Because, you know, it's it's it's more of a reaction to their situation that's out of their control.
00:48:18.670 --> 00:48:19.469
Yeah.
00:48:19.469 --> 00:48:23.789
And do kids develop some sort of diagnosis that's because of everything?
00:48:23.789 --> 00:48:24.909
Sure, that happens.
00:48:24.909 --> 00:48:34.269
There's PDSD and some kids come wired with ADHD sometimes and other things that happen, but you know, a lot of it's reactivity, anyways, right?
00:48:34.269 --> 00:48:39.869
And therapy is a great place for them to process it and have a safe space if they have two parents that can't regulate.
00:48:39.869 --> 00:48:46.909
I'm just saying that if we could get the parents to get their stuff together and to get regulated, we wouldn't need so much therapy for kids in divorce.
00:48:46.909 --> 00:48:47.630
That's all.
00:48:47.630 --> 00:48:48.829
Yeah.
00:48:49.070 --> 00:48:49.389
Nope.
00:48:49.389 --> 00:48:50.509
I totally agree.
00:48:50.509 --> 00:48:51.630
I agree.
00:48:51.630 --> 00:48:54.670
Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
00:48:54.670 --> 00:48:57.150
You have given so many good nuggets.
00:48:57.150 --> 00:49:03.389
Hopefully, everyone, you know, listening has, you know, really received some of this information and it's been really helpful.
00:49:03.389 --> 00:49:11.949
Like I said, I will absolutely have a link to your book, you know, in the show notes and any other resources, you know, that you would like to put out there.
00:49:11.949 --> 00:49:15.389
I know you mentioned you can only counsel people in California.
00:49:15.389 --> 00:49:22.590
So if anyone listening is in California, you know, and is looking for someone, definitely look for Kathy Hemlin and she can take care of you.
00:49:22.590 --> 00:49:26.829
But if you're not in California, that book is a great resource.
00:49:26.829 --> 00:49:28.590
Anything else you want to add?
00:49:28.989 --> 00:49:31.230
I I actually have a consultation business.
00:49:31.230 --> 00:49:34.029
That's how I do parenting support across the country.
00:49:34.029 --> 00:49:36.750
So it's called hemlinconsulting.com.
00:49:36.750 --> 00:49:39.789
So hemlinconsulting.com, I said that so fast.
00:49:39.789 --> 00:49:41.630
And that's where I can actually support parents.
00:49:41.630 --> 00:49:49.150
And I have the parenting class through there, and I can't do therapy, but I am a coach, a parenting coach for high conflict divorce.
00:49:49.150 --> 00:49:50.110
So yeah.
00:49:50.429 --> 00:49:50.909
Perfect.
00:49:50.909 --> 00:49:51.710
I love that.
00:49:51.710 --> 00:49:53.469
These are such great resources.
00:49:53.469 --> 00:49:55.469
I'm gonna make sure that all of those are linked.
00:49:55.469 --> 00:49:58.829
And I'm sure that uh there's plenty more that we could discuss.
00:49:58.829 --> 00:50:02.349
So hopefully, you know, I can get you back on the show again another time.
00:50:02.670 --> 00:50:03.949
Okay, thank you.
00:50:04.190 --> 00:50:05.389
Yeah, absolutely.
00:50:05.389 --> 00:50:06.429
Thank you so much.
00:50:06.429 --> 00:50:07.869
And thanks for tuning in.
00:50:07.869 --> 00:50:12.429
Make sure that you leave feedback because that is the greatest gift that you can give.
00:50:12.429 --> 00:50:15.789
A five-star review obviously is very much appreciated.
00:50:15.789 --> 00:50:20.509
And uh make sure that you're sharing this with others because again, knowledge is power.
00:50:20.509 --> 00:50:25.630
So share this with others and make sure you're following the show so you never miss an episode.
00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:30.110
Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.
00:50:31.230 --> 00:50:33.309
Anyways, it is about the kiddos.
00:50:33.309 --> 00:50:38.349
So, what I do is we have four stage four stages of this therapy.
00:50:38.349 --> 00:50:40.750
And the first stage is the intake stage.
00:50:40.750 --> 00:50:49.389
So I'm doing an intake individually with each parent because I don't put the two parents together because most of the people I deal with are high conflict cases.
00:50:49.389 --> 00:50:52.190
And so they don't do well together in the beginning.
00:50:52.190 --> 00:50:58.590
At the end, it's my goal that maybe I could get them in the same room together alone and me talk to them about some co-parenting things.
00:50:58.590 --> 00:51:00.829
But that's my that's my wish for them.
00:51:00.829 --> 00:51:02.269
It doesn't always happen.
00:51:02.269 --> 00:51:10.829
But in the first stage, we do intakes with the parents, then I do intake with a child last alone, no parent in the room, even if one of the parents insists on it.
00:51:10.829 --> 00:51:15.789
So if they insist on being there, so I've got an anxious kiddo, I'm fine with that.
00:51:15.789 --> 00:51:22.509
We could have them in there for a little bit, but I do need to ask certain questions of a child without a parent present because otherwise they're being influenced.
00:51:22.509 --> 00:51:29.550
So I do that and I may meet with a child more, or I may meet with a child just one more time before family therapy.
00:51:29.550 --> 00:51:32.029
We will switch into stage two.
00:51:32.029 --> 00:51:41.869
Because in stage one, when I'm talking to the child, I'm figuring out in a way that kids sometimes don't realize what are the issues that are keeping them from wanting to see their parents.
00:51:41.869 --> 00:51:43.389
Just that simple, right?
00:51:43.389 --> 00:51:45.630
I just need to see are they afraid of something?
00:51:45.630 --> 00:51:47.550
Is there something really to be afraid of?
00:51:47.550 --> 00:51:53.469
So I'm assessing for abuse, domestic violence, substance use in the parents and dangerous things in the home.
00:51:53.469 --> 00:52:00.190
I'm assessing for all that without saying a word to anybody, and I'm screening for that so I can look for that.
00:52:00.190 --> 00:52:11.070
And when there is domestic violence and stuff that I find out through a child or from one of the parents, I will say this to them, which is which is so telling sometimes.
00:52:11.070 --> 00:52:14.909
I go, okay, okay, I see that you're really scared to be in this situation.
00:52:14.909 --> 00:52:23.789
And then we'll go down this rabbit hole for a second, and I and I want to support you in this and make sure we're both safe when we're gonna be in this situation with your parent.
00:52:23.789 --> 00:52:27.389
So, do you think I'm safe in the room with your parent?
00:52:27.389 --> 00:52:37.150
And when I say that, and they say no, and I get a chill down my spine, then I try to explore that gently to try to understand what it is.
00:52:37.150 --> 00:52:38.989
I have heard tons of things.
00:52:38.989 --> 00:52:45.869
So this helps me assess the level of safety that this parent has, whether they're very unsafe or not.
00:52:45.869 --> 00:52:51.550
And I've picked up on some pretty nasty dynamics in families by just asking that question.
00:52:51.550 --> 00:52:57.789
It's interesting how a child will sort of report abuse towards them or domestic violence around them.
00:52:57.789 --> 00:53:03.070
But when you ask them directly about whether I'm gonna be safe in a room, they let loose on that question.
00:53:03.070 --> 00:53:05.710
So I've found that to be very, very telling.
00:53:05.710 --> 00:53:08.829
Anyways, that's not all my cases do I get responses to that.
00:53:08.829 --> 00:53:13.230
But I use certain things are very calculated and used for a reason, and that one is two.
00:53:13.230 --> 00:53:17.150
So I get the list from them, this list that they don't know I'm making.
00:53:17.150 --> 00:53:21.949
I get permission from them to talk to their parent about their concerns.
00:53:21.949 --> 00:53:25.389
And if they say yes, then we go to stage two.
00:53:25.389 --> 00:53:31.949
If they say no, then I have to taper that and I have to go, okay, well, maybe we could talk about one or two things because they're scared.
00:53:31.949 --> 00:53:34.190
They're thinking they're gonna get retaliation.
00:53:34.190 --> 00:53:38.349
So I try to negotiate maybe one or two things that we could start with.
00:53:38.349 --> 00:53:50.670
Because if we could get this going and I actually have a parent who is safe and who can address these things, then we're gonna be okay and it'll open these safety up for the child, and they'll start asking questions once we get into family therapy.
00:53:50.670 --> 00:53:54.349
Anyways, I'm going down all these details of things.
00:53:54.349 --> 00:53:56.110
It's because it's so complicated.
00:53:56.110 --> 00:53:57.949
It could go so many different ways.
00:53:57.949 --> 00:54:01.309
I just sit back and I go, I have no idea what's gonna happen next.
00:54:01.309 --> 00:54:07.389
I'm just gonna take my cues from the child and take in my information from the parents, and let's see what happens.
00:54:07.389 --> 00:54:09.789
So um, that's the exciting part of it for me.
00:54:09.789 --> 00:54:12.750
It's like, I don't know what I'm getting when I start a family.
00:54:12.750 --> 00:54:16.029
And I never try to predict things either.
00:54:16.029 --> 00:54:17.949
I just react to whatever I'm being given.
00:54:17.949 --> 00:54:28.829
So then we go to stage two, we have this list, and I go through it and we develop these valid, what's called validation scripts based on emotion-focused family therapy by Adele LaFrance.
00:54:28.829 --> 00:54:30.750
Not to be confused with Sue Johnson.
00:54:30.750 --> 00:54:35.230
If any of you know couples therapist Sue Johnson, who passed away a few years ago, bless her heart.
00:54:35.230 --> 00:54:39.150
She has a great model too, that's attachment, couples attachment.
00:54:39.150 --> 00:54:45.070
But what this is, is Adele LaFrance's uh child and parent attachment.
00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:49.469
And we build scripts around the issues that the children have presented.
00:54:49.469 --> 00:54:58.670
So I'm teaching the parents how to validate their feelings, irregardless of whether they think it happened or not, irregardless of their opinion of the situation.
00:54:58.670 --> 00:55:02.829
This isn't about being defensive and this is not about correcting the narrative.
00:55:02.829 --> 00:55:15.710
This is about recognizing your children's feelings because they do have them, even though I've been told by some parents they don't and they're not important, but that's okay, because they obviously didn't get treated nicely when they were kiddos, or they never would have said that.
00:55:15.710 --> 00:55:21.630
So I teach them that these feelings are important and acknowledging those feelings are important.
00:55:21.630 --> 00:55:30.269
And the only way you're gonna get a relationship back with your child or to improve your relationship with your child if you have some contact is to create safety.
00:55:30.269 --> 00:55:55.550
And the way to create safety is to be able to validate their feelings and to repair attachment ruptures, and attachment ruptures are when something goes wrong, the child doesn't feel seen or heard, maybe they got hurt in some way, physically or emotionally, that needs to be addressed and pulled into the light again and apologized for if the apology is necessary and their feelings need to be acknowledged.
00:55:55.550 --> 00:55:58.590
So that's what we spend stage two in.
00:55:58.590 --> 00:56:02.829
And again, that's based, my book is based on the parenting classes based on that.
00:56:02.829 --> 00:56:04.269
So we spend time in that.
00:56:04.269 --> 00:56:21.070
If I can get a parent to be able to sit with me after a little bit of rebellion in the beginning, because they don't get it or they don't agree or they don't something, if I can get them to understand how important this is and how this is going to build safety for the future, then we do a role play.
00:56:21.070 --> 00:56:34.429
And if they can actually role play with me, and as if I'm their kid or their kids in the room and I'm watching, and they're able to be sincere and they really I feel like they get it, then we do family therapy.
00:56:34.429 --> 00:56:39.710
So you can hear there's like all these different, well, you may not be able to hear it, but I I hear it.
00:56:39.710 --> 00:56:43.789
There's these different, different stages of screening I'm doing.
00:56:43.789 --> 00:56:44.750
Right.
00:56:44.750 --> 00:56:54.670
And if there is abuse, if there is domestic violence, I do try to get a read on what the parents think of that, especially if it's been proven that it's happened.
00:56:54.670 --> 00:56:55.869
What do they think of that?
00:56:55.869 --> 00:56:57.070
Are they making excuses?
00:56:57.070 --> 00:56:58.670
Oh, well, the kid deserved it.
00:56:58.670 --> 00:57:00.269
Are they saying stuff like that?
00:57:00.269 --> 00:57:05.070
If there's any of these red flags I pick up on, we don't even go to family therapy.
00:57:05.070 --> 00:57:11.630
Because number one reason I am putting the screening tool in is for safety for the children.
00:57:11.630 --> 00:57:13.869
And that parent has to do their work.
00:57:13.869 --> 00:57:16.509
This is the parent's job to do the work, not the kids.
00:57:16.509 --> 00:57:18.429
And that's another thing that's different.
00:57:18.429 --> 00:57:28.989
So when we get into parent-child therapy, which is not including the second parent, the co-parent, it's just one parent, one child, because that's the relationship that needs to be repaired.
00:57:28.989 --> 00:57:35.309
I make sure that the child is heard and they're not the ones doing any of the work.
00:57:35.309 --> 00:57:42.909
Some people think that, you know, here's a parent, here's a child, and the child has to understand the parent's feelings, the parent has to understand the child's feelings.
00:57:42.909 --> 00:57:44.029
That's not how it works.
00:57:44.029 --> 00:57:45.550
That's couples therapy.
00:57:45.550 --> 00:57:51.150
When you've got two equal, power, equal people and equal power to each other is what I meant.
00:57:51.150 --> 00:57:58.509
When you have a parent, they're up here in power, child's down here in power, you don't try to make the one that's under you understand your feelings.
00:57:58.509 --> 00:58:02.750
It's the parent up, the person up here in power that needs to understand this person's feelings.
00:58:02.750 --> 00:58:08.989
So they're the one who have they have to talk, they have to address the feelings, they have to understand the child's world.
00:58:08.989 --> 00:58:11.550
And that's what the goal of that therapy is.
00:58:11.550 --> 00:58:20.429
And if we can do that, and if that parent can genuinely show up to the table and do that, most most of the time the kid will respond.
00:58:20.429 --> 00:58:28.190
It really depends on how long it's been, because sometimes people come to me after, you know, a year, five years, and there's a lot of damage done.
00:58:28.190 --> 00:58:32.590
So that's difficult to reverse when that's happened, but it does improve things.
00:58:32.590 --> 00:58:34.190
So there's that stage.
00:58:34.190 --> 00:58:48.349
And then if I know I'm jumping through these, we do family therapy, we we go through that and we address each of those things, and then new things start coming up because the child starts feeling better and they start feeling safer and they can actually speak when they want to.
00:58:48.349 --> 00:58:56.909
And I don't mean that they're gonna be rude, I'm just saying that they have a voice, they don't get dismissed, they get to actually expect their parent to understand them.
00:58:56.909 --> 00:59:00.349
And if their parent doesn't in front of me, then I cue them too.
00:59:00.349 --> 00:59:03.309
And if they can't do it in front of me, then I excuse the child.
00:59:03.309 --> 00:59:06.429
Well, I work with the parent again because it's the parents' work.
00:59:06.429 --> 00:59:08.829
And in this stage, they have a lot of control.
00:59:08.829 --> 00:59:10.909
They get to say, like where they sit in the room.
00:59:10.909 --> 00:59:16.909
Some parents have a big problem with that, but it's important because they're being made to come here.
00:59:16.909 --> 00:59:21.550
Why can't they have some sort of agency in what happens and some control?
00:59:21.550 --> 00:59:26.349
Where I sit, they get to tell me where I sit, where they sit, where the parent sits.
00:59:26.349 --> 00:59:31.869
Sometimes I'm on kid chairs, sometimes I'm on a couch between the two, sometimes I'm at my desk.
00:59:31.869 --> 00:59:34.110
I let them choose and it's really cool.
00:59:34.110 --> 00:59:39.230
It empowers them, it gives them a little bit of power in their room because they've never felt that.
00:59:39.230 --> 00:59:43.789
And the other thing I give them is they can leave at any time to go in this other room that I have for them.
00:59:43.789 --> 00:59:48.750
Not go running out of the building, not go into the waiting room to the other parent, but go into the other room.
00:59:48.750 --> 00:59:53.070
So they're allowed to emotionally take a break if they're getting overwhelmed.
00:59:53.070 --> 00:59:57.389
And they don't feel trapped because you don't want a kid in the office that feels trapped.
00:59:57.389 --> 01:00:00.909
Panic attacks, you're dysregulated, they can't take anything in.
01:00:00.909 --> 01:00:02.269
So that's the first three stages.
01:00:02.269 --> 01:00:08.509
The four stages, if everything's going well, which oftentimes it can, then I end up feeling like a fly in the wall.
01:00:08.509 --> 01:00:13.309
And it's almost like I'm doing a therapeutic supervised visitation thing where I'm just sitting there doing nothing.
01:00:13.309 --> 01:00:15.070
I'm really not sitting there doing nothing.
01:00:15.070 --> 01:00:16.429
I'm observing a lot.
01:00:16.429 --> 01:00:20.190
I their interactions are starting to become more organic.
01:00:20.190 --> 01:00:24.190
And if I start talking, the child looks over at me and going, Why are you talking?
01:00:24.190 --> 01:00:29.550
When that starts happening, soon after I start talking about let's go do something outside of here.
01:00:29.550 --> 01:00:31.710
Why don't you guys go have lunch together?
01:00:31.710 --> 01:00:34.590
If it's allowed in the case, of course.
01:00:34.590 --> 01:00:37.710
So, anyway, so that's the four stages.
01:00:37.710 --> 01:00:43.070
And yeah, it makes me feel like I can track all this stuff.
01:00:43.070 --> 01:00:47.389
I I've got it, it's very clear to me when we go to the next stage.
01:00:47.389 --> 01:00:50.029
I tell parents ahead of time what I'm doing.
01:00:50.029 --> 01:00:52.670
So it's not this big mystery, right?
01:00:52.670 --> 01:00:53.150
Yeah.
01:00:53.309 --> 01:00:56.590
So yeah, that was a lot, but that that's it.
01:00:56.590 --> 01:00:58.670
That's my thing that I do.
01:00:59.070 --> 01:00:59.389
Yeah.
01:00:59.389 --> 01:01:00.429
No, I love it.
01:01:00.429 --> 01:01:05.710
And I I love that you have like the structured, you know, like phases that you do.
01:01:05.710 --> 01:01:18.349
And I love the empowering of children because I think that that is that's huge because I think that a lot of children, you know, have never felt like they could be empowered, you know, never felt like they got to choose anything.
01:01:18.349 --> 01:01:21.630
So I think it's huge that, you know, you start that that way.
01:01:21.630 --> 01:01:33.469
Because again, it allows the child to, you know, kind of let their guard down a little bit and actually like have a conversation, you know, with you and with the parent that maybe they've been, you know, rejecting.
01:01:33.469 --> 01:01:42.909
So I'm sure that with all of, you know, the work that you've done and all the different families that you've done, I'm sure you've seen, uh, well, actually, I'm not sure.
01:01:42.909 --> 01:01:56.029
I should ask you, have you seen that there are like patterns, you know, or like certain things that led the child and the parent to become like, you know, for them to start rejecting that parent?
01:01:56.029 --> 01:02:01.150
Like, is there a common theme or themes that you've seen that have led to this?
01:02:01.150 --> 01:02:07.550
Because I'm wondering if anyone listening to this is like, man, my kid like will not talk to me since I started this divorce.
01:02:07.550 --> 01:02:25.949
And, you know, like sometimes I hear, you know, my my ex-spouse is a narcissist and they have turned them against me, you know, and like those have, you know, different implications versus, you know, just maybe the kid just decided to take, you know, one spouse's side instead of the other one.
01:02:25.949 --> 01:02:28.989
So I'd love to hear kind of what you've what you've uncovered.
01:02:29.309 --> 01:02:29.550
Right.
01:02:29.550 --> 01:02:32.670
I mean, there's different, it's, it's, it's not black and white.
01:02:32.670 --> 01:02:34.989
And there is different patterns that I've observed.
01:02:34.989 --> 01:02:39.469
And I do put that in my book too, the the reasons why a child may be rejecting you.
01:02:39.469 --> 01:02:45.150
And it could be in part because of your co-parent, that happens.
01:02:45.150 --> 01:02:47.789
I mean, I mean, people call parental alienation.
01:02:47.789 --> 01:02:54.029
There's, I think that we need to be a little bit less, everybody's doing parental alienation and everyone's abusing a child.
01:02:54.029 --> 01:02:57.469
There, it, there's some gray areas in here that people aren't looking at.
01:02:57.469 --> 01:02:59.789
It's not so black and white.
01:02:59.789 --> 01:03:22.190
And I think that even if you have a parent who may be looking like they're influencing their child not to see you, there's actually some things that you probably can identify because if you call me up and laid out everything that you've said and done with that child, like the before, like maybe six months to a year before the rejection, I could probably find the thing that you're doing that contributed to it.
01:03:22.190 --> 01:03:35.070
And that's part of the book is like I really, you know, want parents, and I'll explain this in a second, to understand that yeah, it it could be partially your co-parent, but I bet you you've done something to contribute to.
01:03:35.070 --> 01:03:44.590
Because if if they've shown up a lot of times when parents feel like the other parents against them, and I'm not saying parents over here, they're co-parents against them, pulling the child away.
01:03:44.590 --> 01:03:52.429
There's so many reasons why a co-parent does that that maybe technically meets the criteria for parental alienation, but really isn't purposeful.
01:03:52.429 --> 01:03:52.829
Okay.
01:03:52.829 --> 01:03:55.630
So there's a lot of co-parents out there that are anxious and stuff.
01:03:55.630 --> 01:04:18.509
But, anyways, even if this is going on, if you get frustrated, and this is a pattern I see, is that the parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling a kid pulling away, that's stopping seeing them on their visitation time, limits them to like a dinner, isn't going overnights, and that progression that starts to happen before the full rejection happens, a lot of times there is a progression into it.
01:04:18.509 --> 01:04:29.710
The parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling like their child's being pulled away, oftentimes will do all kinds of tactical things to get their kid back.
01:04:29.710 --> 01:04:36.349
One of them could be hey, you know, if you want your Christmas presents this year, you'll come over during the time.
01:04:36.349 --> 01:04:40.029
Or you want your birthday presents, or I'm gonna keep your birthday presents so you come over here.
01:04:40.029 --> 01:04:41.630
So they're not really taking things away.
01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:43.789
They're just trying to get the, you know, lure them in.
01:04:43.789 --> 01:04:44.750
Like they're desperate.
01:04:44.750 --> 01:04:48.590
They want their kids and they don't know why it's happening, they don't know what's going on.
01:04:48.590 --> 01:04:50.029
That's something that they do.
01:04:50.029 --> 01:04:53.949
And what that actually does is push them away more, but they don't understand that.
01:04:53.949 --> 01:04:56.349
Because they think they're entitled to their children.
01:04:56.349 --> 01:04:57.789
Yes, those are their children.
01:04:57.789 --> 01:05:03.309
They're technically children are children are entitled to a healthy relationship with both parents.
01:05:03.309 --> 01:05:05.070
Yes, that's true.
01:05:05.070 --> 01:05:08.909
And you can't coerce them into coming to you.
01:05:08.909 --> 01:05:15.389
You can't manipulate them because if you do that, they know it and they're gonna feel threatened by it and they're gonna stay away from you.
01:05:15.389 --> 01:05:16.670
Now they have a real reason.
01:05:16.670 --> 01:05:29.230
If they thought they had a reason before that maybe was a made-up reason, or maybe it was some other reason in their head or their other parents, uh, the co-parent's head, you have now put cement on that, and now they're not gonna see you because of your behavior.
01:05:29.230 --> 01:05:33.630
So I'll see the coercive stuff, I'll see the threats, you know.
01:05:33.630 --> 01:05:37.869
I've seen people empty bank accounts and say, I'm taking your savings away.
01:05:37.869 --> 01:05:47.309
I've seen people, you have to be respectful in me, and they get loud and they they get really forceful in their language and their tone changes and they get a little scary.
01:05:47.309 --> 01:05:49.949
And they do things like that.
01:05:49.949 --> 01:06:02.349
So when they're like that, I challenge anyone who's who has a kiddo that's not willing to see them to look back and go, okay, how have I been in the last times that I was interacting with my child?
01:06:02.349 --> 01:06:03.550
How was I really?
01:06:03.550 --> 01:06:08.750
Really take an honest look at what you've been and what you've done around them.
01:06:08.750 --> 01:06:12.349
Did I scream at my co-parent in front of my kid?
01:06:12.349 --> 01:06:16.269
Did I slam a door because I was upset?
01:06:16.269 --> 01:06:21.949
These are things that scare children and they feel threatened by them.
01:06:21.949 --> 01:06:40.190
Even if you got provoked by your co-parent who may have said something under their breath, may have sent you a nasty ground text or something on a co-parenting app that really upset you or did something in court, and you come at the next transition and scream at them for it, and you do it in front of your child, that's going to cause a rejection.
01:06:40.190 --> 01:06:45.710
And that's a real reason to be rejected because that scares the crap out of them and they want to stay with a safe parent.
01:06:45.710 --> 01:06:56.750
So those are things that some of the things that parents do that they don't even think about because they're in reaction to the situation they're in and they're in reaction to the co parent.
01:06:56.750 --> 01:07:00.670
And frankly, a lot of parents I meet aren't monsters.
01:07:00.670 --> 01:07:03.389
Some people call them monsters, they're not.
01:07:03.389 --> 01:07:16.269
They're they're normal people like you and me who got put into an extraordinarily stressful situation and a feeling where they were losing their kid and they start acting in ways they have never acted in their entire life.
01:07:16.269 --> 01:07:18.110
They turn into different people.
01:07:18.110 --> 01:07:18.989
Yeah.
01:07:18.989 --> 01:07:20.670
And I don't blame them.
01:07:20.670 --> 01:07:23.630
So that's one thing that happens for a reason.
01:07:23.630 --> 01:07:32.429
And the other reasons are reasons the kids have, reasons the situation, and the reasons the co-parent actually helps to push along.
01:07:32.429 --> 01:07:36.029
If you want me to go on those, I'm happy to go into some of those.
01:07:36.029 --> 01:07:37.949
So many things.
01:07:38.429 --> 01:07:56.429
No, I just think this is so fascinating because, you know, as you're like, as you're talking about stuff, and you know, I'm thinking back to, you know, my own personal experience, and I'm also thinking about like clients, and and it is, it's so easy to get triggered by that other co-parent.
01:07:56.429 --> 01:08:05.949
They can send you, you know, the most condescending text message or condescending email, or they say something really, you know, shitty under their breath.
01:08:05.949 --> 01:08:09.869
And, you know, like it can, it can send you spiraling.
01:08:09.869 --> 01:08:24.430
And I get it because, you know, I've gotten to that point sometimes where I'm just like, ugh, you know, I've been able to hold it in in front of my child, you know, but I also have just really wanted to just, you know, lose, lose my shit on them, you know.
01:08:24.430 --> 01:08:28.190
So like, so I I get exactly like what you're talking about.
01:08:28.190 --> 01:08:34.989
And it does, you know, take a level of, you know, calmness to really just go, okay, you know what?
01:08:34.989 --> 01:08:37.070
I can feel how I feel, but guess what?
01:08:37.070 --> 01:08:38.670
Like this is about my child.
01:08:38.670 --> 01:08:41.710
So that that will stay over here in this compartment.
01:08:41.710 --> 01:08:45.550
And this right here is just my interaction with you, with our child, and that's it.
01:08:45.869 --> 01:08:47.230
And it's hard to be regulated.
01:08:47.230 --> 01:08:49.070
That's the whole point that I bring in there too.
01:08:49.070 --> 01:08:58.590
That when you're in a divorce, in a high custody, high, high custody, high contested divorce where it's a lot of stress, then this is trauma.
01:08:58.590 --> 01:08:59.949
This is this is trauma.
01:08:59.949 --> 01:09:01.470
You've got a system that's broken.
01:09:01.470 --> 01:09:12.590
You've got, you may have an attorney that's acting like you feel and acting out their own personal stuff with their past divorce or their issues around divorce or their childhood.
01:09:12.590 --> 01:09:14.590
And it's dysregulating.
01:09:14.590 --> 01:09:16.270
This this is just a thing.
01:09:16.270 --> 01:09:18.909
The system just goes in and messes up families.
01:09:18.909 --> 01:09:22.590
And I can honestly say that because I sit there and watch it every day.
01:09:22.590 --> 01:09:25.229
So it's hard to regulate.
01:09:25.229 --> 01:09:28.909
And I think one of the big things, like I talk about again, I don't mean to keep talking about the book.
01:09:28.909 --> 01:09:32.750
I'm like looking at it, going, it's right there in that chapter, about regulating yourself.
01:09:32.750 --> 01:09:40.750
If you could find a way to get regulated so your co-parent isn't triggering, triggering you, so the situation isn't triggering you.
01:09:40.750 --> 01:09:42.750
It could be anybody that could trigger you.
01:09:42.750 --> 01:09:48.350
A judge could just decide to side with your co-parent and do the opposite of what you think is right, or something like that.
01:09:48.350 --> 01:10:01.470
Or, or you've got an attorney that's not very empathetic to your situation and takes off and does this whole big declaration without telling you, and you don't even read it because you think that they did the declaration, declaration the way you wanted them to.
01:10:01.470 --> 01:10:05.630
And then there's all this inflammatory things, and they're starting a bigger fight with your co-parent.
01:10:05.630 --> 01:10:06.909
I've seen that happen too.
01:10:06.909 --> 01:10:13.229
So there's so many things that can beat you down and make you feel like you're completely out of control.
01:10:13.229 --> 01:10:14.350
You're right.
01:10:14.350 --> 01:10:15.869
The system's in control.
01:10:15.869 --> 01:10:17.789
Once you get in that system, it takes off.
01:10:17.789 --> 01:10:25.310
And unless you have a good judge with an honest, good attorney that's regulated themselves, you're gonna have a really hard time in the system.
01:10:25.310 --> 01:10:28.430
So I don't blame parents for getting in that space.
01:10:28.430 --> 01:10:29.949
I'm just saying, either.
01:10:29.949 --> 01:10:40.590
I'm just saying, man, if you could regulate yourself so you're not reactive, you know, and the camera, the cameras, the phone cameras like they go at you in a transition.
01:10:40.590 --> 01:10:44.510
If that starts happening, don't react to it, right?
01:10:44.510 --> 01:10:46.590
Just call your attorney.
01:10:46.590 --> 01:10:47.630
Report it.
01:10:47.630 --> 01:10:50.670
It's illegal unless the judge told you to do it.
01:10:50.670 --> 01:10:56.109
But don't start a fight over things like that because then you do that in front of the kid, and then that's really hard.
01:10:56.109 --> 01:11:00.430
But yeah, so many things people don't think about because you're just being human.
01:11:00.430 --> 01:11:06.829
You're in an inhuman situation being human, and then you get punished for it if the kid gets exposed to it.
01:11:06.829 --> 01:11:09.149
And they this shouldn't even be getting to this point.
01:11:09.149 --> 01:11:12.829
I think that divorce should be transactional and it should not be in court.
01:11:12.829 --> 01:11:18.989
It's this isn't criminal court, this isn't CPS, this isn't civil court where we're doing a lawsuit with that.
01:11:18.989 --> 01:11:30.750
We don't need to have a jury, which we don't have, but we don't need to have all this judgment and stuff, unless there's real stuff going on, like domestic violence and child abuse, then kick those up to the courts that deal with that stuff.
01:11:30.750 --> 01:11:32.510
But that's just my opinion.
01:11:32.750 --> 01:11:33.069
Yeah.
01:11:33.069 --> 01:11:34.350
Then have this stuff.
01:11:34.350 --> 01:11:35.630
Yeah.
01:11:35.630 --> 01:11:36.189
Yeah.
01:11:36.189 --> 01:11:37.069
No, I agree.
01:11:37.069 --> 01:11:57.149
And I I love that you have taken the approach that you have, because I think that, you know, yes, there's a lot of like, you know, family therapists out there, there's a lot of children therapists out there, but you know, there's not a lot of, you know, at least that I know of, of people that are really looking at it, you know, kind of from the lens that you are and empowering the child.
01:11:57.149 --> 01:11:59.069
I love that you created that book.
01:11:59.069 --> 01:12:03.470
You know, it's it clearly has so many resources in it.
01:12:03.470 --> 01:12:09.550
So I will definitely make sure that there is a link in, you know, in the show notes so anyone can find it.
01:12:09.550 --> 01:12:16.590
Because I think that, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, oh my gosh, like I, you know, that like this is really resonating with me.
01:12:16.590 --> 01:12:21.949
You know, I love that there is that resource out there because I just think, you know, knowledge is power.
01:12:21.949 --> 01:12:26.510
And the more, you know, knowledge you can get, the more powerful you are for yourself.
01:12:26.510 --> 01:12:48.590
I also love the fact that you talk about being regulated because I think that's one of the things that isn't talked about enough, you know, just when you're going through the divorce, you know, it's a lot of the reason why I created Thrive and Decide is because, you know, when you're going through the divorce, you are so lost in emotion that you're not thinking about, you know, how like all the things.
01:12:48.590 --> 01:12:54.109
You're not thinking about, I need to change my beneficiaries, I need to, you know, figure out what I'm gonna do with the house.
01:12:54.109 --> 01:12:57.310
I need to figure out, you know, like just you're not thinking about all those things.
01:12:57.310 --> 01:13:00.670
You're just thinking about the loss that you, that you had.
01:13:00.670 --> 01:13:12.269
And so it takes a while to get regulated and to be able to, you know, keep those emotions at bay so that you do keep that, you know, child at the forefront of everything.
01:13:12.269 --> 01:13:15.630
And, you know, it's like I always say, like, divorce isn't fair.
01:13:15.630 --> 01:13:17.390
Nothing about divorce is fair.
01:13:17.390 --> 01:13:18.750
There's not one thing about it.
01:13:18.750 --> 01:13:20.430
You can't split children in half.
01:13:20.430 --> 01:13:22.829
You can't, you know, you can't split a house in half.
01:13:22.829 --> 01:13:26.989
Like, you know, there's like there's just a lot of things that there's that it's not fair.
01:13:26.989 --> 01:13:34.829
So I love, again, that you're going through this and helping because I think that, you know, it's a topic that people don't, they don't talk about.
01:13:34.829 --> 01:13:43.229
And, you know, there are a lot of parents out there that are feeling rejected by their kids and, you know, maybe they don't realize, you know, why.
01:13:43.229 --> 01:13:46.829
And I love the fact too that you're basically like, put a mirror up.
01:13:46.829 --> 01:13:53.310
Like, yes, your spouse could be the one that is triggering you, but like look in the mirror and see why is that triggering you?
01:13:53.310 --> 01:13:55.949
And how can you keep it from triggering you?
01:13:55.949 --> 01:13:57.869
And I know that sounds so hard.
01:13:57.869 --> 01:14:00.670
Like when you're in the middle of it, trust me, I get it.
01:14:00.670 --> 01:14:17.710
But if you can like really like step back, do whatever it is that regulates you, taking a walk, putting your feet in grass, like taking a shower, like any of the things that ground you, you know, you're gonna find it so much easier to move through because you're not gonna no longer be worried about it's not fair.
01:14:17.710 --> 01:14:22.989
You're gonna be more worried about like, okay, how do we just get through this and focus on our kids?
01:14:23.310 --> 01:14:23.869
Right, right.
01:14:23.869 --> 01:14:32.750
And focusing on the kids is the big thing that doesn't happen because when we're dysregulated as parents, then when anybody's dysregulated, you're not thinking of other people.
01:14:32.750 --> 01:14:37.149
You're trying to calm your system down, you're trying to fight for yourself.
01:14:37.149 --> 01:14:40.750
And it isn't that we're selfish or narcissistic or anything like that.
01:14:40.750 --> 01:14:41.630
I'm not saying that.
01:14:41.630 --> 01:14:44.350
It's just that's just the nature of being dysregulated.
01:14:44.350 --> 01:14:48.989
Your frontal lobe, your right and left brains as a train is off the track.
01:14:48.989 --> 01:14:50.189
It's not working.
01:14:50.189 --> 01:14:53.470
That's your way to problem solve and reason through things.
01:14:53.470 --> 01:15:02.670
When you're got your amygdala or your lizard brain or whatever, fight or flight, however you look at it, brain going, that's all it's focused on.
01:15:02.670 --> 01:15:05.229
You're in a burning building, and how can you get out of it?
01:15:05.229 --> 01:15:06.029
That's it.
01:15:06.029 --> 01:15:08.029
And that doesn't mean it's it's your fault.
01:15:08.029 --> 01:15:10.829
It doesn't mean there's a fault in your personality either.
01:15:10.829 --> 01:15:16.909
The family law system, as it's designed right now, is set up to dysregulate everybody and it, including a judge.
01:15:16.909 --> 01:15:21.550
I have haven't seen very many that are too, they seem calm, but they're confused.
01:15:21.550 --> 01:15:23.069
Nothing against judges.
01:15:23.069 --> 01:15:27.310
Attorneys, likewise, they're going in fight, fight, fight.
01:15:27.310 --> 01:15:30.590
Most of them, I mean, that's all dysregulated.
01:15:30.590 --> 01:15:34.750
And and it's just, I don't know, it's so messy.
01:15:34.750 --> 01:15:35.710
How could you not?
01:15:35.710 --> 01:15:43.710
The most reasonable person that had the best upbringing can step into a divorce and and become someone different.
01:15:43.710 --> 01:15:45.550
It's just really, really hard.
01:15:45.550 --> 01:15:54.590
So I think there's a lot of shame when things make people make mistakes, and they need to realize that they're in a system that's set up to make them make those mistakes.
01:15:54.590 --> 01:15:58.670
And it's not that there's this evil entity creating this thing.
01:15:58.670 --> 01:16:00.510
It's just the nature of the system.
01:16:00.510 --> 01:16:10.829
And so they need to give themselves grace because that's the only way you're gonna regulate yourself again, is give yourself grace and not spiral into a shame, blame, spiral if you can.
01:16:10.829 --> 01:16:12.750
And if you can't, do that on your own.
01:16:12.750 --> 01:16:13.550
Go seek some help.
01:16:13.550 --> 01:16:20.029
Go get a coach, go get a therapist, do something to help ground yourself because you don't have to be so reactive in this.
01:16:20.029 --> 01:16:21.229
You don't have to.
01:16:21.229 --> 01:16:24.189
It's easy to be, but you don't have to, right?
01:16:24.189 --> 01:16:24.989
Yeah.
01:16:24.989 --> 01:16:30.109
And as far as like I'm thinking about, sorry, I'm getting over a cold.
01:16:30.109 --> 01:16:31.229
You're okay.
01:16:31.229 --> 01:16:33.390
And my voice goes once in a while.
01:16:33.390 --> 01:16:38.590
Um, about children and what can we do to help if you can we talk about that?
01:16:38.590 --> 01:16:43.470
What can we do to help them get through divorce more successfully so they don't go repeating patterns?
01:16:43.470 --> 01:16:49.630
Number one, later on in their own relationships, and number two, that they're not falling apart.
01:16:50.590 --> 01:16:50.829
Yeah.
01:16:51.069 --> 01:16:53.310
How can you tell if a kid's starting to fall apart?
01:16:53.310 --> 01:16:56.590
I'm gonna start with that because that's the first thing I look at.
01:16:56.590 --> 01:16:57.630
How's their sleep?
01:16:57.630 --> 01:16:58.909
Has their sleep changed?
01:16:58.909 --> 01:16:59.869
How's their eating?
01:16:59.869 --> 01:17:00.829
Has their eating changed?
01:17:00.829 --> 01:17:02.269
These are two basic things.
01:17:02.269 --> 01:17:03.710
Are the grades slipping?
01:17:03.710 --> 01:17:06.350
Are the grades getting alarmingly better?
01:17:06.350 --> 01:17:08.510
That's also another sign, honestly.
01:17:08.510 --> 01:17:10.350
Are they withdrawn for their friends?
01:17:10.350 --> 01:17:12.989
Are they going into the room and spending more time alone?
01:17:12.989 --> 01:17:18.029
I would pay attention to that stuff because that's a sign of functioning.
01:17:18.029 --> 01:17:27.069
And if they're saying, hey, I don't want to play football anymore, I don't want to go to dance, I'm, you know, this has been too much, you know, maybe after you two figure out where we're living, I'll do it again.
01:17:27.069 --> 01:17:34.909
Now, the best thing to do for kids, and if they're doing that, you want to try to get them more engaged with their peers.
01:17:34.909 --> 01:17:37.470
You want to get them involved in activities.
01:17:37.470 --> 01:17:40.989
You want their day-to-day activities to remain the same.
01:17:40.989 --> 01:17:54.590
I see parents make this mistake, and I will call it a mistake, and they yank kids out of soccer, football, gymnastics, dance, whatever, right when the divorce starts because they can't afford it or they don't have time to transport.
01:17:54.590 --> 01:17:59.550
Oh, that's the worst thing you could do because kids need consistency.
01:17:59.550 --> 01:18:07.949
I mean, there's so much literature, like through trauma exposure, like you know, when we were having the fires out here, we there's a whole these studies and stuff on these kids.
01:18:07.949 --> 01:18:17.470
The best thing you can do, and when they brought counselors into these schools when we were having fires and they were trying to counsel them and the parents, like, keep their routines the same.
01:18:17.470 --> 01:18:19.869
So try to keep the routines the same.
01:18:19.869 --> 01:18:25.149
If you used to make pancakes on Sunday, keep making those pancakes on Sunday.
01:18:25.149 --> 01:18:29.550
Even if you have to make them ahead of time and heating them up in the microwave, do that.
01:18:29.550 --> 01:18:32.590
If they were in soccer, keep them in soccer if you can.
01:18:32.590 --> 01:18:35.390
I mean, usually we pay ahead of time for things like that.
01:18:35.390 --> 01:18:37.470
Don't make major changes like that.
01:18:37.470 --> 01:18:42.350
If they got to go to grandma's on Saturday night to go make cookies with them, I don't know why I'm thinking of baking.
01:18:42.350 --> 01:18:44.029
I guess I was baking the other day.
01:18:44.029 --> 01:18:53.310
Or go and whatever they do with grandma or grandpa or whatever, or an aunt and uncle, don't change those things because they need to have consistency.
01:18:53.310 --> 01:18:56.269
That's like an easy, low-hanging fruit you can do.
01:18:56.269 --> 01:18:58.590
Keep that if you're able, right?
01:18:58.590 --> 01:18:59.949
You have a co-parent.
01:18:59.949 --> 01:19:03.470
So sometimes co-parents don't get along in the beginning, especially.
01:19:03.470 --> 01:19:10.029
Maybe it can't happen, but of all the things you can do is try to keep it consistent and the same.
01:19:10.029 --> 01:19:15.149
And the other thing is, is kids are way more aware than you think they are.
01:19:15.149 --> 01:19:18.510
Don't have phone calls in your house when they're there.
01:19:18.510 --> 01:19:27.630
If you need to have a phone call with a friend or an attorney or a therapist or somebody, do it outside the house where they cannot hear you for sure.
01:19:27.630 --> 01:19:30.350
Go for a walk if you can, if your kids are old enough.
01:19:30.350 --> 01:19:31.470
Don't let them hear that.
01:19:31.470 --> 01:19:34.510
Or better yet, wait until they're in school.
01:19:34.510 --> 01:19:35.869
They're not in the house.
01:19:35.869 --> 01:19:39.310
I guarantee you, if you think they're sleeping, they're not.
01:19:39.310 --> 01:19:50.029
If you're having a conversation about this divorce, they are at their door listening, or they're at the top of the stairs, or they're at the end of the hallway, whatever your configuration of your living situation is.
01:19:50.029 --> 01:19:53.789
I can't even tell you how many kids, but the majority of them are listening.
01:19:53.789 --> 01:20:05.229
And they're they're little sleuths and they're like little Sherlock Holmes, and they're trying to figure out what mom and dad are doing, or dad and dad, or mom and mom are doing, whatever the configuration is, they're trying to figure it out.
01:20:05.229 --> 01:20:09.069
And so they're listening and they're paying attention and they're picking up on these little things.
01:20:09.069 --> 01:20:12.350
You take them to a park and you're talking to a friend on the phone.
01:20:12.350 --> 01:20:16.189
You better make sure you're you're not within hearing distance because they'll hear you.
01:20:16.189 --> 01:20:22.909
So try to block exposure to court documents and court phone calls.
01:20:22.909 --> 01:20:27.310
Don't even tell them the court exists, would be my preference.
01:20:27.310 --> 01:20:31.229
And not that there's a court date happening ever if they know court exists.
01:20:31.229 --> 01:20:38.430
Because sometimes kids are represented by minors counsel or child's counsel, whatever they're called in your particular area.
01:20:38.430 --> 01:20:44.109
So they know court exists, but they don't need to know when the court date is because that's guess what happens?
01:20:44.109 --> 01:20:45.630
They get anxious.
01:20:45.630 --> 01:20:48.989
Yeah, they're just stressed about it, totally stressed about it.
01:20:48.989 --> 01:20:53.470
And now you've just put your child in the middle of an adult battle that they shouldn't have anything to do with.
01:20:53.470 --> 01:20:58.189
They need to just live their life peacefully as if this is happening over here and they're over here.
01:20:58.189 --> 01:20:59.470
And let's try to keep it separate.
01:20:59.470 --> 01:21:13.149
So if there's any way, and even if you've already started exposing things to them, if you could just stop, you probably will see a decrease in anxiety and acting out or whatever it is that's going on with your child if you can just stop exposing them to court stuff.
01:21:13.149 --> 01:21:17.310
And the other thing is the predictability of going back and forth between parents.
01:21:17.310 --> 01:21:25.550
What I recommend, even for teenagers, is having a calendar in each house and putting on there when they're going to be a dad or mom's house.
01:21:25.550 --> 01:21:27.390
And you have stickers for each of them.
01:21:27.390 --> 01:21:31.229
If they're teenagers, you could just have them write the names so they can see it.
01:21:31.229 --> 01:21:36.750
For littles, even four-year-olds or three-year-olds, have them pick out stickers.
01:21:36.750 --> 01:21:44.670
You help them put them up on the days that they're supposed to see the other parent or you, and then help them cross the days off as they go.
01:21:44.670 --> 01:21:47.390
They don't need to know how to read a calendar for this to work.
01:21:47.390 --> 01:21:48.750
But you know what this does?
01:21:48.750 --> 01:21:54.189
This makes them feel like they know what's going to happen next in their lives.
01:21:54.189 --> 01:21:57.229
Like they don't need to know about court, but this is day-to-day life stuff.
01:21:57.229 --> 01:21:58.670
So they know what's going to happen next.
01:21:58.670 --> 01:22:01.869
So it's not just this thing happening to them that's out of their control.
01:22:01.869 --> 01:22:10.269
And that's partially why kids act out during a divorce, is they they aren't being informed of the things they do need to know, and they're being informed of the things they should never know.
01:22:10.269 --> 01:22:11.149
Yeah.
01:22:11.149 --> 01:22:13.470
So that's very helpful.
01:22:13.470 --> 01:22:14.909
Sit down and talk to them.
01:22:14.909 --> 01:22:21.310
If you're about to get a divorce and you haven't gotten one, then find out how to sit with them with a book.
01:22:21.310 --> 01:22:25.470
There's so many cool books, and I wonder if I have any of these in my bookshelf right now.
01:22:25.470 --> 01:22:27.869
Like Coco Bear, it's not your fault.
01:22:27.869 --> 01:22:29.630
That's one, two homes.
01:22:29.630 --> 01:22:32.029
And I'm I'm sorry, I'm gonna look off for a second.
01:22:32.029 --> 01:22:36.670
I love this.
01:22:36.670 --> 01:22:38.350
I have a few books.
01:22:38.350 --> 01:22:39.550
I mean, here's one.
01:22:39.550 --> 01:22:44.350
When my parents forgot how to be friends, sometimes this doesn't apply.
01:22:44.829 --> 01:22:44.989
Yeah.
01:22:46.909 --> 01:22:48.269
Jennifer Moramalanos.
01:22:48.269 --> 01:22:50.670
I may have said her name on.
01:22:50.670 --> 01:22:52.109
But this is a nice one.
01:22:52.109 --> 01:22:54.510
Another one is two homes, which is really good.
01:22:54.510 --> 01:22:56.350
Coco Bear, it's not your fault.
01:22:56.350 --> 01:23:02.269
I don't have those books with me, but I use those in my practice because it sort of walks it through.
01:23:02.269 --> 01:23:05.550
Because again, kids take responsibility for a divorce.
01:23:05.550 --> 01:23:06.989
They think it's their fault.
01:23:06.989 --> 01:23:08.350
A lot of them do.
01:23:08.350 --> 01:23:10.829
They may never ever say it, right?
01:23:10.829 --> 01:23:11.550
But they do.
01:23:11.550 --> 01:23:13.390
So you want to try to like preempt that.
01:23:13.390 --> 01:23:17.470
And if you're gonna explain that a divorce is gonna happen, Cocoa Bear, it's not your fault.
01:23:17.470 --> 01:23:23.630
If you have like a preteen or younger, that is such a beautiful book because one, it's it's gender neutral.
01:23:23.630 --> 01:23:30.189
Two, you could talk about how both parents love that that bear, but it's got they did nothing.
01:23:30.189 --> 01:23:32.269
It's not your fault part.
01:23:32.269 --> 01:23:35.630
And it's such a beautiful book, it's just an easy ready book.
01:23:35.630 --> 01:23:39.789
So it sort of shows a kid in a preschool, but it applies to anybody.
01:23:39.789 --> 01:23:43.949
There's just things like that you could do to just sit down and acknowledge it.
01:23:43.949 --> 01:23:50.109
And the the message they need to get, even if you don't use a book, is hey, we're gonna be splitting up homes.
01:23:50.109 --> 01:23:58.590
And if you can say this, if it applies, we don't love each other, we're not gonna be with each other anymore, but we love you and care for you, and you're always gonna be well taken care of.
01:23:58.590 --> 01:24:01.550
One of us will always be with you at any time.
01:24:01.550 --> 01:24:03.390
We're gonna be doing things a little different.
01:24:03.390 --> 01:24:10.350
We'll explain that later, but we're we want to let you know because when you just get a divorce and start splitting up, and the kids are like, what is going on?
01:24:10.350 --> 01:24:12.029
Why did dad or mom move out?
01:24:12.029 --> 01:24:15.229
I mean, that that's just too hard on them, right?
01:24:15.229 --> 01:24:21.229
So letting them have some awareness, label to what's going on is a good thing.
01:24:21.229 --> 01:24:23.789
And I know some people are like, oh, we're always gonna love each other.
01:24:23.789 --> 01:24:26.269
Great, then don't say that, say something different.
01:24:26.269 --> 01:24:27.069
Yeah.
01:24:27.069 --> 01:24:30.269
You know, I've had people do that.
01:24:30.269 --> 01:24:32.029
I'm like, it's cool, that's cool.
01:24:32.029 --> 01:24:34.350
This is just an example of what I do with kids.
01:24:34.350 --> 01:24:37.390
It and if parents need it, they can get a therapist to do that with them.
01:24:37.390 --> 01:24:39.550
Like I do that with parents too.
01:24:39.550 --> 01:24:40.670
I offer that.
01:24:40.670 --> 01:24:47.869
So letting them know that and keeping them in the regular schedule and not exposing them, that all that stuff will go a long way.
01:24:47.869 --> 01:24:56.989
And if you see other things happening, they're eating, sleeping, school performance, social engagement starts changing, then it might be time to get a therapist for them.
01:24:56.989 --> 01:25:01.630
But they don't automatically need a therapist just because you're going through a divorce.
01:25:01.869 --> 01:25:02.269
Yeah.
01:25:02.510 --> 01:25:04.269
Because it's not, they're not the problem.
01:25:04.510 --> 01:25:04.750
Right.
01:25:04.909 --> 01:25:05.630
It's not the problem.
01:25:05.630 --> 01:25:08.029
They're just reacting to the family splitting up.
01:25:08.029 --> 01:25:09.229
That's all it is.
01:25:09.710 --> 01:25:10.189
Yeah.
01:25:10.189 --> 01:25:11.789
No, I love that.
01:25:11.789 --> 01:25:20.590
And I love your approach, and and I love that you say, you know, because I think that sometimes, you know, parents do they're they're well meaning, but they're like, well, I'm in therapy.
01:25:20.590 --> 01:25:23.789
They need to be in therapy, you know, they like they need to work through this.
01:25:23.789 --> 01:25:26.590
And it's like, well, I mean, maybe, but maybe not.
01:25:26.590 --> 01:25:39.229
Maybe they could, you know, just like if you're just supporting them and, you know, in the ways that you've just like, you know, given as examples, then they wouldn't actually need, you know, any further, you know, therapy.
01:25:39.229 --> 01:25:42.670
Although I think everyone needs therapy at, you know, some point in their life.
01:25:42.989 --> 01:25:43.149
Yeah.
01:25:43.149 --> 01:25:47.229
But I mean, kids just don't automatically know need need it because of a divorce.
01:25:47.229 --> 01:25:59.149
I think that the majority of the kids I see when they get put into therapy, the reason why they're in therapy is because their parents have withdrawn and there's they're not paying attention to their kid as much.
01:25:59.149 --> 01:26:01.310
There's fighting they're exposed to.
01:26:01.310 --> 01:26:03.550
There's something within the family that's happening.
01:26:03.550 --> 01:26:05.229
So they're they're reacting to something.
01:26:05.229 --> 01:26:08.670
It isn't that they have an issue they need to work through.
01:26:08.670 --> 01:26:24.109
What really would be better in these situations, and you're right, I think everyone should have therapy eventually, but the young kids don't necessarily need it because if their parents were grounded and they were focused on what the child needs, the child wouldn't even feel the pain of the divorce.
01:26:24.510 --> 01:26:24.829
Yeah.
01:26:25.710 --> 01:26:30.989
So the the therapy sometimes serves as a band-aid for something that needs to be happening at home.
01:26:30.989 --> 01:26:37.310
And I find myself working more with parents if I'm seeing a child individually than I do with the child itself.
01:26:37.310 --> 01:26:43.149
Because, you know, it's it's it's more of a reaction to their situation that's out of their control.
01:26:43.149 --> 01:26:43.949
Yeah.
01:26:43.949 --> 01:26:48.350
And do kids develop some sort of diagnosis that's because of everything?
01:26:48.350 --> 01:26:49.390
Sure, that happens.
01:26:49.390 --> 01:26:58.750
There's PDSD and some kids come wired with ADHD sometimes and other things that happen, but you know, a lot of it's reactivity, anyways, right?
01:26:58.750 --> 01:27:04.430
And therapy is a great place for them to process it and have a safe space if they have two parents that can't regulate.
01:27:04.430 --> 01:27:11.390
I'm just saying that if we could get the parents to get their stuff together and to get regulated, we wouldn't need so much therapy for kids in divorce.
01:27:11.390 --> 01:27:12.109
That's all.
01:27:12.109 --> 01:27:13.390
Yeah.
01:27:13.550 --> 01:27:13.949
Nope.
01:27:13.949 --> 01:27:15.069
I totally agree.
01:27:15.069 --> 01:27:16.109
I agree.
01:27:16.109 --> 01:27:19.149
Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
01:27:19.149 --> 01:27:21.710
You have given so many good nuggets.
01:27:21.710 --> 01:27:27.869
Hopefully, everyone, you know, listening has, you know, really received some of this information and it's been really helpful.
01:27:27.869 --> 01:27:36.430
Like I said, I will absolutely have a link to your book, you know, in the show notes and any other resources, you know, that you would like to put out there.
01:27:36.430 --> 01:27:39.869
I know you mentioned you can only counsel people in California.
01:27:39.869 --> 01:27:46.989
So if anyone listening is in California, you know, and is looking for someone, definitely look for Kathy Hemlin and she can take care of you.
01:27:46.989 --> 01:27:51.229
But if you're not in California, that book is a great resource.
01:27:51.229 --> 01:27:52.989
Anything else you want to add?
01:27:53.390 --> 01:27:55.710
I actually have a consultation business.
01:27:55.710 --> 01:27:58.510
That's how I do parenting support across the country.
01:27:58.510 --> 01:28:01.229
So it's called Hemlinconsulting.com.
01:28:01.229 --> 01:28:04.189
So Hemlinconsulting.com, I said that so fast.
01:28:04.189 --> 01:28:06.109
And that's where I can actually support parents.
01:28:06.109 --> 01:28:13.630
And I have a parenting class through there, and I can't do therapy, but I am a coach, a parenting coach for high conflict divorce.
01:28:13.630 --> 01:28:14.590
So yeah.
01:28:14.829 --> 01:28:15.390
Perfect.
01:28:15.390 --> 01:28:16.109
I love that.
01:28:16.109 --> 01:28:17.869
These are such great resources.
01:28:17.869 --> 01:28:19.949
I'm gonna make sure that all of those are linked.
01:28:19.949 --> 01:28:23.229
And I'm sure that uh there's plenty more that we could discuss.
01:28:23.229 --> 01:28:26.829
So hopefully, you know, I can get you back on the show again another time.
01:28:27.149 --> 01:28:28.350
Okay, thank you.
01:28:28.590 --> 01:28:29.789
Yeah, absolutely.
01:28:29.789 --> 01:28:30.829
Thank you so much.
01:28:30.829 --> 01:28:32.269
And thanks for tuning in.
01:28:32.269 --> 01:28:36.829
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01:28:36.829 --> 01:28:40.189
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01:28:40.189 --> 01:28:44.909
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01:28:44.909 --> 01:28:50.029
So share this with others and make sure you're following the show so you never miss an episode.
01:28:50.029 --> 01:28:54.029
Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.