SEAL Team 6 Leaves a Man Behind | Rob Harrison | Ep. 354

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Special Operations Cobertsbiona the Team House with your hopes. Jack
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Murphy and David bark Hey. Welcome to Teamhouse, episode three
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fifty four. I'm Dave. This is Jack. Joined tonight by
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our guest Rob Harrison, former Air Force intel guy, with
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some very interesting stories about his own career and also
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about the Chapman incident on Robert S. Fridge as a
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first hand. It has some first hand accounts of that
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and then the aftermath also. So Rob, thank you very
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much for joining us tonight.
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Thanks guys, I appreciate you all having me. My name
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is Rob Harrison. I spent about twenty six year's active
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duty in the Air Force and retired in twenty twenty one.
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So Rob, the first thing we always like to ask
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is our guest origin story. What what led you? How
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do you grow up? And what led you to the military?
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The path? Yeah, I would say there's some poetry references
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in here somewhere, But I didn't take a traditional path
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like many young young men out there. I might not
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have known exactly what I wanted to do. I graduated
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high school, I was always a good student, ended up
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on an academic scholarship to a local junior college where
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I was going to go ahead and knock out my
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general education requirements before going off to a bigger university.
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And had always had the military and mind specifically the
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Air Force, based on some family lineage folks that had
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also served, and I ended up deciding I came up
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with this awesome plan. I was like, all right, well,
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I'm going to party my first semester, and I know
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that I need to have a three point oh, So
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I'll squeak by the first semester and then I'll pull
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a four point zero on the second one after I
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get it all out of my system and everything will
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be good. But there was this fine print in my
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in my scholarship, and I needed to maintain a three
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point oh for each portion of the academic year. And
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so I got the regret to inform you, mister Harrison,
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but we're going to have to pull your academic scholarship.
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So I had to tuck my tail between my legs,
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go back home to Mom and dad, fess up to
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them what had happened. And my dad said, well, what
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are you going to do about it? So I decided
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not to put that burden on anybody else and said, well,
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I think I'm going to go talk to the Air
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Force recruiter. And he said, I think that's a good idea.
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And so you went to the recruiter and how did
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you choose the job that you ended up with.
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So that's another there's a story of irony with this one.
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I went in.
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I wanted to fly.
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I knew that if I was going to join the
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Air Force, I wanted to be on airplanes. That's what
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the Air Force does, right, we fly, fight and win.
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So I went into the recruiter. The recruiter said, yes, sorry,
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I don't have any of those jobs available for you.
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But uh, but I took all these aptitude tests and
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I qualify for all this stuff. And he says, well,
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you want to be a linguist and uh, and I said,
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I'm a redneck from Mississippi. I can barely speak English.
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What do you mean, uh, you know, study foreign language?
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He said, well, you you know you qualify for this test.
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You've you've done it, you passed it. You could go
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do that. And I was like, I don't think so,
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so I went in open electronics and uh, in week
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five back then in Air Force basic training, they gave
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you your job assignments, and I grew up, you know, having
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family connections to the Air Force that had served in
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earlier generations. I knew enough about that, and thanks to
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the Discovery Channel's Wings you know episodes way back when,
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I knew enough about the Air Force to know that
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to be a missile maintenance guy in the bottom of
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a silo was not a garden spot, right, And so
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I raised my hand in the middle of week five
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of basic training and said, somebody said that I could
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be a linguist. And I passed for this test and
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so forth, and the guy stopped and he said, anybody
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else take that test, And somebody caught on to what
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was going on and they raised their hand. A side
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door opened up, an in service recruiter came and rescued
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this for a few hours out of basic training. We
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went down a side hallway into a private room, sign
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new contracts, got a coke and a smile, and became,
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you know, contracted to become an airborne photological linguist.
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Fascinating and so so then I assumed, so was DL
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I the next step for you?
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Yeah, after basic you would go through DL I pick
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up your basic language acquisition. I studied Persian FARSI. I
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finished that and went into the intelligence and the air
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flu training pipelines. So you go through your intel analysis schools.
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We do that in a place called goodfell At Air
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Force Base in San Angelo, Texas. Then most of our
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survival stuff, most of it happens up in Washington State.
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And then by June of ninety seven, I had spent
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just shia two years in the initial accession pipeline. I
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made it to my first duty station at off At
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Air Force Base outside of Omaha, Nebraska, in a little
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town called Bellevue.
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Fascinating and so what what were you responsible for their
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when you learn Offit?
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At off It, I was a new crypt linguist. We
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were assigned to the RC one thirty five's. I got
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a chance to qualify on the the what we call
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the Rivet joint, the Combat Scent and the Cobra Ball.
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I flew up probably about ten different deployments. Fortunately they
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were all relatively short air crew deployments by normal deployment standards.
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And it all has to do with aircrew hours and
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you know, keeping keeping folks physiologically from being like overflowing,
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if you will. So back and forth to the sandbox.
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You know.
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This was Operation Southern Watch, Northern Watch. Most of my
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deployments would have been to Prince Salton Air Base. I
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did one up to insult Turkey, and that happened to
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coincide with events that were unfolding in ninety nine for
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Allied Force. But on my very first deployment, I went
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out with the combat Scent and the Cobra ball excuse me,
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the combat scent and the Rivet joint and we redeployed
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back through Ramstein, Germany. And there I ran into an
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AC one thirty spector crew and a guy that the
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personality sticks out. His name is James Patterson O'Brien and uh,
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and if you could imagine, he's from Boston, and uh,
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he's got family members that were cops and firemen and
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probably one that was a priest. But Obe, as they
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called him, he was an intimidating fellow because he had
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this cool specter patch and he was wearing all of
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the subdued patches and my aircrew patches all look like
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a bright shining rainbow compared to his, and he's he
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looks at me and gives me this stern, you know,
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evil look. He's like what are you a fucking dizzo?
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And I had to look at my supervisor at the time.
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I'm like, what is he talking about? Is I don't
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speak that. He's like, well, you had asked, you know,
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could you ever go down and and do our do
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our job in Florida? And he's like, that's what he's
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talking about. Oh so I was a wee can fly
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on gunships. And so at that point it dawned on
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me on my very first deployment that I was not
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in the airframe that I was most suited for. You know,
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the the rivid joint was was cool. I like to say,
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it can spy on the devil and talk to God.
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There's enough Wisban gadgetry on this aircraft to handle all
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of today's work. And you have a twelve way adjustable
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captain's chair, you know, like all kinds of comfort on
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this aircraft. So anyway, I find out on that very
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first deployment that I can go work with Air Force
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Special Operations and from you know, that planet a seed,
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and so I had to figure out like, okay, how
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do you chart that path, what do you have to do,
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what do you how do you qualify to get considered
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to go and do that sort of work. So fast forward,
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that's what I did, And by two thousand I had
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done a number of deployments around the world and and
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I went down to do assess assessment for what we
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called Commando Look, And that was so that I could
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become an intel professional, support and Air Force special operations
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on their various airframes, whether it was AC one thirty gunships,
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MC one thirty talents, they had fifty three payblows and
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then ultimately they ended up Osprey's and so on. I
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got a chance to do and fly all of those.
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It sounds kind of challenging, just even rivet joint. It
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sounds kind of challenging because like when you talk about
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you know, somebody who's doing signals intelligence at like a
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regional collection facility or something like that. You know, obviously
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there is that real time aspect, but they can also
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record it, they can go back, they can like assess it,
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but they're kind of depending on you guys for real
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time like side by side interpretation or translations as you're flying. Right.
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Yeah, there's a there's a number of aspects like way
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that you would look at it from the intelligence process
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that goes along with all of it. But like first
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and foremost, you know, any Intel professional that is assigned
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to one of those crews, your your duty is to
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the platform itself. And then oh, by the way, you
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know whatever, you know, national priority requirements might be levied
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upon you for tasking and that sort of thing. Right,
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so you you you basically trioge based on prioritization, you know,
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so preservation of the platform itself comes first and foremost,
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and then then going after whatever national requirements might be
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tasked to you.
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Right, what was it a I don't want to say
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Rivet joint in parteriar, but it was a n I
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s R platform that was rushed and down by the
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Chinese a few years ago, Right, So.
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It wasn't a It wasn't a Rivet joint. I think
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the one that you're talking about is the Navy P
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three and the Hainan Island incident. Udly enough, I was
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just having a conversation with somebody about that story today.
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You know.
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Fast forward towards the end of my career, I got
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a chance to be a superintendent of the Intel squadron
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that that handled all of the flyers for the Arsenlum
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thirty five specifically for the Pacific, and that Heinen Island
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incident was one of our alum He was what we
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would have called a Niner, the three ninetyieth Intelligence Squadron.
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Kirk Town's his name. He actually happened to be an
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airman that was augment in that Navy P three crew
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when the Heinen Island incident happened. And and I had
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several mentors that were part of the repatriation process and
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and so forth. But yeah, that that was an interesting story. Uh,
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maybe one for another episode. Yeah, there's a there's a
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lot of opinions out there on yeah, and whether or
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not landing at Heinen Island is the right call under
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the circumstances.
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Right, and then and then I booked I guess that
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not to go to but I said, there wasn't a
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they didn't do a sufficient burn of of everything on
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the aircraft either.
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Yeah, there's a there's a ton of story that I
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would that I'd love to share with you one day
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over over a beverage when we're when we're not on
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this call.
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Sounds good, sounds good.
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That's a that's a deep story.
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But but just to just kind of point out that
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you know, you talk about intelligence on an ac vers
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like A one thirty five and those those ones that
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you know the most is SR platforms are fairly defenseless,
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like they're out there kind of hanging it out right.
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Yeah. I mean you you operate within you know, international standards,
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you know what is known. You know, every everybody's going
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to do some form of reconnaissance on one another intelligence gathering.
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What how do you but yeah, you go out there.
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You typically, you know, at alta tude, you're you're in
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international airspace or within an area that you're approved to fly,
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and then you know you're executing your mission. Uh, you know,
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depending on the ao R. I've done everything from off
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the off the coast of the Chatka Peninsula to you know,
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in the in the Pacific theater, whether it be you know,
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North Korea, China, across the Middle East. Most of my
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deployments and the rest of my formative years were on
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the APSOX side, So majority of my time was spent
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deploy into Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn of Africa, that sort of thing.
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Yeah. So, so you make it through this selection, uh,
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and I assume that there's you know, additional training for
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you then at that point.
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Yeah, the the worst part of selection is the is
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the psycho aw I hated that part. It was too
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damn long and they asked the same question over and over. Uh,
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so I I despised. It turns out the guy that
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was doing.
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My position with ob on that that specter crew ended
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up being on my board when I was going through
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the selection process, and so Jack is his name.
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Jack ends up telling me, Yeah, the psych doc came
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in and debriefed how irritated you got with the number
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of questions and that you thought that it was bullshit
245
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because there wasn't any like actual correct answer in the
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five choices that they gave you. I was like, yeah,
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that's about right. So he gives the readout on the
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situation and everybody's like, well okay, and they did their
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vote around the room. Everybody slaps the table on approval
250
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for Rob. He's like and then I just started laughing,
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you know, and I was like, well, what was so funny?
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I was like, because the psych doc said the same
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thing when I assessed. So I just laughed at all
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of them, said you just let another one of me,
255
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and they give the chief.
256
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Dumbasses, so you and at the twenty fifth Intelligence Squadron
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at Herlbert. And what's it like for you when you
258
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first show up there?
259
00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:12.960
Back then? Really small squadron. We were maybe maybe eighty strong,
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small unit. It hadn't it hadn't exploded yet. Uh. And
261
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and when I say exploded, a lot of stuff, you know,
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coincided with with my eleven War on Terror, the deployments
263
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that the resulted from all of that. But we were
264
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eighty people strong. I was a young guy coming from
265
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the rc WENT thirty five arena, trying to figure out, Okay,
266
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how do I do an intelligence job to support you know,
267
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Air Force special operations platforms and so on. I had
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several guys, one of my mentors, a buddy named Ted Gambogi,
269
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another guy named Shane Kimmitt. You know, we lost Shane
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in O two and an aircraft accident in Roosevelt Roads.
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But those guys kind of helped steer me, you know,
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down the successful path of how to navigate from the
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traditional strategic IR platform down to the soft side and
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you know, how to operate in the weeds and uh
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and do you know how do you fit in within
276
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that crew? And and it really you know, boiled down
277
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to airmanship and and learning learning your airframe, learning your craft,
278
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and being able to mix and mingle with whether it
279
00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:29.679
be a special operations airlift mission or strike or cast
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platform or rescue, you know, with the rotary lift, you
281
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name it. So they helped me navigate it. Jack was
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one of my primary instructors and uh and I leaned
283
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on him heavily because in the late nineties, Jack and
284
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another guy named John Scott had been in some key
285
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missions over in Bosnia and Serbia, and Jack specifically he
286
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.320
was he was the dizzo on the Paveloat mission that
287
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.279
flew in to rest to you at the time, that
288
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.640
was Lieutenant Colonel Goldfiend. He was a squadron commander. I
289
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.480
think of the triple Nickel, the five fifty fifth out
290
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.839
of Aviano, if I have all that historically out theurate
291
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:16.200
and when Goldfiend grew went on to become the chiefest
292
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staff of the Air Force. That night he described it
293
00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:24.759
as he said, it was his least proud moment when
294
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he successfully intercepted an SA three missile, meaning he got
295
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shot down. So anyway, Jack and the crew get the payblows,
296
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:40.039
get tasked to go and recover those guys recover him.
297
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.640
And if you can imagine like where his AT six
298
00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:48.119
team gets shot down, like it's in a heavily defended
299
00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.240
air defense serfs to air missile type environment. So Jack
300
00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:56.039
as an intel capability on the pablows. It helps them
301
00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.920
navigate through low level terrain masking, threat avoidance, threat warning,
302
00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.960
that sort of thing. These guys literally fly the gauntlet
303
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.480
in order to go and pick up Goldfen and Goldfien
304
00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:11.519
you know, lives and becomes to the capabilities of Air
305
00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.839
Force Special Operations and specifically the ones we call the
306
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.160
steel Horse the payblows.
307
00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:24.079
That's wild. That's wild. So while you're at the twenty
308
00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.279
fifth on your first tour, that's when nine to eleven happens.
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00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:35.079
Yeah, nine to eleven happened obviously September eleventh that year.
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I had just by by about July time period, I
311
00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.039
had gotten qualified on the U model gunship known as
312
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the Spooky AC went thirty U. And when once nine
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00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:52.400
eleven happened, immediately everybody is in deployment mode like you're
314
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:54.920
just waiting, you know, you know that the orders are
315
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.039
going to come. It's just a matter of like the
316
00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.480
tasking flowing and that sort of thing. So our unit
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00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.359
immediately starts spinning people up on additional airframes so that
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you can maximize you know, support and you know, expand
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00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.359
capability and so on. They build out the deployment team.
320
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And there's a handful of people that know this story.
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00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:20.200
But Rick, Cops, if you're listening, I apologize for what
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00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.640
I'm about to say. Sorry, not sorry. They were building
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out the initial deployment team and I wasn't on the list,
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and I was recently, you know, like I was the
325
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.720
guy who had just assessed into the unit, but I
326
00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.440
was the one who had most recent you know experience
327
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:45.160
in our intel mission in that AOO and so our
328
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guys were looking at the seasoned folks and Rick Cox's
329
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name was on the list as one of our folks
330
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and he was out in the Pacific Theater. And as
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they're going around the room with the initial deployment plan,
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fella name, he become Colonel sip the Captain Sippowitz, big tall,
333
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.960
athletic dude, grizzled jaw. You know, he just sitting there
334
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.279
stone stone cold, you know, killer planning, you know, the
335
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.799
the deployment operation for for our mission set. And he
336
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:19.200
does the around the room and I'm like, yep, new
337
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.440
guy here. I got a question and I made my pitch.
338
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.079
I was like, I'm the most recent I'm newly qualified
339
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.480
on this, but I've got recent experience in this ar.
340
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.799
I've been busting my ass and my name's not on
341
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:34.440
that list that I want. I want that changed. And
342
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.000
he stops and he listens, goes around the rooms. A
343
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.720
whole bunch of people said thumbs up. He's like, all right,
344
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.359
Cox is out, Harrison, you're in and Uh, and that
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00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.720
story has come back, especially after I had made a chief.
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He's like, I remember the day when you and Uh,
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and it was, you know, just a moment where open
348
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mouths get fed you you you speak up. And in
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00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:01.599
this case, I had had reason too. And man if
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I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have made the initial deployment,
351
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and things hadn't wouldn't have unfolded the way they did
352
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in my crew. And well, anyway, sorry, not something.
353
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:15.279
So let's talk about that initial deployment because Gecko, Rhino
354
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and Akanda Roberts like, you were there for it.
355
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:26.960
Yeah, so I had. I was extremely fortunate. So I
356
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.839
was brand new and to say brand new amongst you
357
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.480
know an operator crowd. I didn't even know what a
358
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.359
rock drum was, so I was new, you know. When
359
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.920
it came to that level of operations. I had some
360
00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.839
senior folks, a fella named Ken Welborne that took me
361
00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.839
under his wing. He showed me the ropes.
362
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.880
Hey, guys, it's your pal Jack. I just want to
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So your first deployment with them is that includes Gecko
391
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:31.640
and Rhino and a condo along with Robert Fridge. Can
392
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:33.759
you tell us about that deployment how it starts out
393
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.119
for you?
394
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:40.000
Yeah? So I had just mentioned a fellow by the
395
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.839
name of Ken Wellbornon who was our He was our
396
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:45.839
senior guy and had taken me under his wing, showed
397
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.920
me the ropes and kept me from walking into propellers
398
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.519
and all kinds of stuff. Ken was a typical you know,
399
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.160
just he was the epitome of a of an awesome
400
00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.640
senior nco. He he had done a ton of cool
401
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.400
stuff in his career, and so at this point like
402
00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:06.079
this might have been towards the end of his actual
403
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.000
active duty career, so he put me, you know, out
404
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.799
in front as much as he possibly could. I had
405
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.400
the fortune of being on the very first AC one
406
00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:21.839
thirty that crossed into Afghanistan airspace after nine to eleven,
407
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.839
and then that led to that initial mission at Gecko
408
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.880
and Rhino, which was the airfield seizure that the Rangers
409
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:34.160
had taken over what became Rhino at Camp Rhino, I
410
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.680
think is what the Marines called it. They once they
411
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.319
took over from the Rangers and to all the Marines,
412
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:47.440
the Rangers were there first. Then Gecko was Mulla Omar's palace,
413
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.000
and that night that was a huge joint Special operations mission,
414
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.279
tons of rotary wing aircraft, fixed wing. I remember charging
415
00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:02.440
at the border and we had we had three gunships
416
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.200
and three talents his sixty one thirties line of breast
417
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.440
trying to hit tankers as we're pressing in, and the
418
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.279
tanker crews were hilarious because they're like, no, this tale
419
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.839
nuver is supposed to be behind this tanker and we're like, dude,
420
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.519
we don't give a shit, just give us gas. And
421
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:20.720
so they gave us gas and we pressed on because
422
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:24.079
they were about to screw up time zone target. So
423
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:28.960
anyway we push in the airborn mission commander is Pete Blaber.
424
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.240
He's on board the aircraft that I'm on, and yeah
425
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:34.000
it was wild.
426
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:40.599
Yeah. So you know it's interesting because you know, having
427
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.160
been involved in all this stuff, you know, the AC
428
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:46.759
one thirty is a platform that's sort of been under fire,
429
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.039
you know, like we we don't need anymore since Vietnam,
430
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.079
and it's and from what I hear, it's under fire again.
431
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:58.119
I mean, but with as they continue to update it,
432
00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:01.680
do you see anything else that can read place its capabilities?
433
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.680
Man, I think we'd have to sit here and go
434
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.839
to the whiteboard with some sci fi capabilities. You know,
435
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:13.960
when you talk about you know, persistent casts and so on,
436
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.640
the debate nowadays is you know, penetrating platforms and you know,
437
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:24.920
having having an environment that allows for a persistent cast platform.
438
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.079
Whether the debate is over the A ten that is
439
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.480
you know, phased out and said to be replaced by
440
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.799
the F thirty five. Like you know, nothing will ever
441
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.680
you know, purposely specifically be able to replace what the
442
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:39.960
A ten Warthog could do, just like nothing would ever
443
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.440
be able to specifically replace what an ac Win thirty
444
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:47.839
can do. I could there be something, Yeah, but I'm
445
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.400
I'm your typical you know. Uh, I'm a I'm a
446
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.319
soft guy at heart, you know. So what do we do?
447
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.519
We think outside the box? I could come up with
448
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.160
a number of Barnapkin ideas on how we could do that,
449
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:07.519
but I don't know. I think there are certain platforms
450
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:11.400
that always be near and dear and sentimental. So I
451
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.240
would I'd vote to keep it around as long as
452
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.240
you can, because I mean, look at look at what's
453
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:20.319
going on in Iran and Israel right now. If if
454
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.079
Israel is able to you know, establish you know, air superiority,
455
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.400
well now you have the ability to penetrate with those
456
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.720
platforms that weren't initially designed to penetrate.
457
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:30.119
Right.
458
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.640
So I'd say there's still a need, still a capability
459
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.079
that would exist and still in the future, you know,
460
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.440
it push came to shove, you would you would allow,
461
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:44.519
you'd create the environment that would allow their their operations
462
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:45.519
to continue.
463
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:52.039
Yeah. So so let's go on to Robert s. Fize
464
00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:54.039
if you don't mind, can can you tell us sort
465
00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:56.960
of the the mission brief for you guys, what your
466
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.640
responsibility was and how it all played out.
467
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:06.880
Yeah, So that initial deployment was you know October. Robert's
468
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.960
Ridge is associated with Operation anacondas so we got to
469
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:16.000
fast forward to February March time period of two thousand
470
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:21.599
and two. So just chronologically, you've gone through you know,
471
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.519
Pobbo has fallen, Kandahar has fallen, the North has fallen,
472
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:32.880
the al Qaeda fighters and Taliban had moved to Tora Bora,
473
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.039
and we've gone through the winter time where they've kind
474
00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:40.079
of retreated into their high ground if you will, basically
475
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.720
pages out of the playbook that they had used against
476
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.480
the Russians in the eighties. Ironically, that was required reading
477
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:50.880
for us as we were going in. I remember books,
478
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.880
you know, showing up by the case for the bear
479
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.920
went over the mountain and the other side of the mountain.
480
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.880
So it was eighties, uh, you know, war story perspectives,
481
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.759
one from you know, Russian commanders and others from commanders
482
00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:08.039
of the muja haden, So we obviously cared what the
483
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:11.119
other side of the mountain looked like, and what was
484
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.319
unfolding in Operation at Anaconda was exactly what we anticipated
485
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.559
based on how they had behaved against the Russians in
486
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.799
the eighties. So the mission brief is that this is
487
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:26.160
the spring offensive. It's brief as hammer and Anvil. You're
488
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:31.720
gonna have special operations, uh overwatch, calling in fire support.
489
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.799
You're gonna have uh soft working with indigenous pushing up
490
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.240
against the anvil that is a conventional force. And it's
491
00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:43.559
all gonna happen right there in the Shaykope Valley for
492
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:47.279
anybody that follows the you know, Afghan you know, uh
493
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:51.279
critical battles and stuff. The the nearest town that would
494
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:55.920
be significant is that of Marzak. You know, the there's uh,
495
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.400
there's areas like the the safe houses up in Gardez,
496
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.200
you know, the some of the forces had come out
497
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:08.799
of barroom down to this area. But anyway, Operation Anaconda
498
00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:11.799
is going to be the kickoff of all of that. Ironically,
499
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.440
the very first night of Anaconda gets delayed with weather
500
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.240
and so forth, and then once we start to move
501
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:23.920
you know, American forces into position, it becomes immediately obvious
502
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.000
that the enemy is already there and they already have
503
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:31.000
a foothold in the high ground. We essentially don't have
504
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:34.880
enough dedicated close air support on station. During the very
505
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:40.079
first night of operation Anaconda, which causes a shuffle of
506
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.759
the scheduling plan for the next night, and then we
507
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:47.799
just basically saturated. So we've got three gunships coming out
508
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.480
of the north, out of Uzbekistan, We've got three gunships
509
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.039
coming out of Mesira. Six birds on station staggered over
510
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.160
the period of darkness to make sure that there's plenty
511
00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:59.880
of cast to go around, and not to mention, you know,
512
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.359
the platforms that were well beyond you know, just the
513
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.519
AC one thirties, you had other fixed wing capabilities in
514
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:13.599
the area as well. For our specific mission, when Robert's
515
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:18.039
Ridge is unfolding, we are the emergency on call cast platform.
516
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.480
We don't have a dedicated customer that night. Our goal
517
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:27.039
is to basically take off, fly right through Afghanistan airspace,
518
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.599
immediately hit a tanker in Pakistan, top off our tanks,
519
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.079
and then just stand by for any emergency that may
520
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.359
pop up. While that happens. One of our sister ships
521
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.519
a nail a nail flight, I think it was Nail
522
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:44.480
to zero. They were originally tasked for the Maco infill
523
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.599
via the Razor elements, so Razor was the image forty seven.
524
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:53.880
Some of your listeners the audience may be familiar with
525
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.079
Alan Mack. He's the chief worn officer that was pilot
526
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.200
and Razors zero three. He's the guy who's taking in
527
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.960
the seal team that is Maco three zero and their
528
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:10.039
combat controller is MAKEO three zero Charlie John Chapman. We
529
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.920
are on tanker while NAIL is supposed to be covering
530
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:18.599
that infill. Well, there's a series of delays, some of
531
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:25.119
its maintenance related, and then meanwhile Coust Airfield comes under attack.
532
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:28.680
So since the infield that that NAIL is supposed to
533
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.559
cover is delayed, Airborne Command and Control decides to re
534
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:36.480
roll the NAIL element to cover the troops in contact
535
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:40.960
situation that erupts at Coust. And when this is going on,
536
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.440
we're literally flying right by that airspace and we even
537
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.200
come up on the radio going, hey, they've got a
538
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.559
dedicated mission. You're sure you don't want us to cover
539
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:52.720
that troops in contact since we're the emergency on call platform.
540
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.279
They're like, nope, nope, Nail's got it. The other guys
541
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.480
are delayed, You guys proceed a tanker and don't mess
542
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.839
up the tanker flow. So we set to the ar
543
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.640
track for air refueling. We we we're topping off our
544
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:08.640
tanks when all of a sudden you hear may day,
545
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:11.440
may a made a any grim any nail. This is
546
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:15.519
Maco three zero, Charlie. And when you hear that, you know,
547
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.920
everybody's you know, quiet as you know. You can hear
548
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:20.799
a pin drop on the aircraft, believe it or not.
549
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.759
We're we're in the middle, like the one point thirty
550
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.079
gets heavy behind a tanker and we have to execute
551
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.279
what they call it toboggan. So you're descending with the
552
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:34.839
tanker in order to maintain air speed and stay connected,
553
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:38.799
all while this Mayday call is going on. So pilot's
554
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.519
talking to the engineer. I'm getting a location of a
555
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.079
down to aircraft over some special equipment that I have
556
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:49.319
on board. They they execute an emergency breakaway from the tanker,
557
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.279
and I passed the coordinates of the of the down
558
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:55.000
to aircraft and the source of where you know, John
559
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:57.440
Chapman's on the radio, and we just make a b
560
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:01.839
line to their to their location sensors to those specific coordinates,
561
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:04.960
and we just fly straight there and establish an orbit
562
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:09.000
over what is now downed Razor zero three in the
563
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.679
valley just north of their original infilid position that was
564
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.920
at toccer Gar at the mountain top.
565
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.159
So so you guys are looking at the downed aircraft.
566
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:28.400
Meanwhile things are going on on the ridge line. Are
567
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.199
you paying attention to both or do you have a
568
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:31.079
priority there?
569
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:36.440
So when we when we fly in, we're we're trained
570
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:41.639
to trained. The sensors are are specifically looking at at
571
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.480
the coordinates and what turns out to be like the
572
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.920
actual helicopter and you can see friendlies around the crash
573
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:52.320
site as we're flying in and establishing that orbit. Chappie's
574
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.280
on the on the radio as three zero Charlie telling
575
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.199
us that they lost a teammate on top of the
576
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.880
mountain and says, hey, we've got a friendly up there.
577
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.079
Can you shift eyes and shift your orbit to that location?
578
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.639
And so we hadn't even established a full orbit, but
579
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:12.159
we just slide immediately slew the sensor to the mountaintop.
580
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.119
That's where we see an active IR strobe and an
581
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:20.559
individual laid out on the mountaintop. We've got a sister ship,
582
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.840
another grim element that picks up an orbit around the
583
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:27.440
helicopter and then we just slid our orbit over to
584
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.480
the mountain. So there's there's two specter gunships in neighboring
585
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:38.480
orbits covering the helicopter's crash site and the original infill location.
586
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:41.480
So we're eyes on the infill location and we are
587
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:42.280
Grim three to two.
588
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.159
Okay, and is it this point, at this point that well,
589
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.000
are you sure? Are you guys there when Chappie, when
590
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:52.440
Slab's team comes in.
591
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:57.159
So when they initially tried to infill, note, we were not,
592
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:00.320
so we didn't see any of that. What I've what
593
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:03.840
I have seen of that mission is from old historic
594
00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:07.800
footage and I can't find that stuff anymore, like I
595
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.239
know it still exists. But there's some interesting story in
596
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:15.480
all of that because that's where Fifi Petty Officer Neil
597
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.639
Roberts was the guy who fell out of the back
598
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:22.559
of the helicopter. There's a variety of accounts of what
599
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.440
happened in that immediate aftermath. I was not specifically there,
600
00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:30.400
but I've spoken to one of my mentors was the
601
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:34.599
intel guy that was that was supporting those airframes out
602
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:40.000
of Uzbekistan, and he literally debriefed those crews. And so
603
00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:44.400
the story is that that Fifi fell out of that helicopter,
604
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:48.280
he got jostled loose as they had positioned getting ready
605
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.360
for the info. So the team is up and they're
606
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:56.079
they're positioning towards the ramp and then once they're coming in,
607
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.599
the enemy activity is seen by the crew of the
608
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:05.199
helicopter and they start taking enemy fire. They wave off
609
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:08.440
of the infill and that's when Roberts gets knocked loose,
610
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:14.280
and the the forty seven gunner that was there, it
611
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:16.719
would have been a crew chief in the back. He's
612
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:18.960
the tail gunner, if you will, That's what we would
613
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.119
have called him in the Air Force. But he said
614
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.840
that that when Fifi fell, it was happening in slow
615
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.239
motion and all I could see was him smiling back
616
00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:31.360
up at him. And so there's there's different accounts on
617
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:35.800
how exactly that fall happens. And I'll save part of
618
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.960
that story for Frank Daily since he was the one
619
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:44.880
who debriefed those guys. But anyway, the gunner, the crew
620
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:48.679
chief had fallen, Fifi's involved in helping recover that guy,
621
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.639
and then Fifi falls after all of that, and the
622
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:56.000
story is that that Fifi survived that fall, and Fifi's
623
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:59.920
seen engage in the enemy, but that footage was out
624
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.280
there and then that footage got scrapped like it got.
625
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:07.280
I don't know, I don't know what the circumstances are,
626
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:11.239
but I remember I remember seeing Fifi fight against the
627
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:15.159
enemy out there. And this is all before, like before
628
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.280
our gunship. When I say I saw it, it was
629
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:22.320
after the fact. I had seen video of this, but
630
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:26.840
I haven't seen it since. And so our perspective when
631
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.079
all this unfolds, that helicopter is now limped off north
632
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:33.719
of the valley. Interesting stories from Alan mack on on
633
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:39.079
how that happens. Amazing airmanship involved all the way around
634
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:43.440
on that crew. Well, by the time we see what's
635
00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.880
going on, we've put eyes on based on Chappe's direction,
636
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.920
Petty Officer Roberts is laid out with an active IR
637
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.280
strobe and we see him just laid out stationary on
638
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.079
top of the mountain. Upon further inspection, our sensors can
639
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.639
see what turns out to be footpads, and it looks
640
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.760
it looks like if you were to do an exploit,
641
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:10.400
like a spliced view of an ant hill, it's like
642
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:13.000
you could see the little foot footpads. And the difference
643
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:18.239
is because the heat of the of the melted snow
644
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.760
where they've been walking back and forth versus the cold
645
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.920
of the snow top, you know, mountain, and so you've
646
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.119
got the hot spot of Robert's body, you've got dark, dark,
647
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:32.400
what I call rat lines for the foot pads, and
648
00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:34.360
then all of a sudden, the enemy just come out
649
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.880
of the woodwork and they just surround him. So at
650
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:41.519
that point the strob is extinguished. We don't know the
651
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.599
fate of Roberts. We have to assume that we have
652
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.360
that we're dealing with the potential survivor. Next thing, you know,
653
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.880
Roberts is positioned up against the area that they called
654
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:56.039
the boulder, and so that's the big rock outcrop. So
655
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:00.760
if you're if you're looking up slope where where the
656
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:03.760
teams would have infilled to the top of that mountain
657
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.440
and been fighting uphill towards bunk what was known as
658
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.960
Bunker one and Bunker two, the rock out crop, the boulder,
659
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:15.000
is that that big rock structure that's up there kind
660
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:16.920
of center mass.
661
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.079
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708
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Well, Roberts gets propped up right there, and we assume
709
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.199
that the enemies wounded him and propped him up and
710
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.360
left in his bait, knowing that the Americans are going
711
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:57.840
to come back for him and basically lay in an
712
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.400
ambush for anybody that.
713
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:03.679
Comes back, right And is she on the from from
714
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:08.119
where we see Chappie's in phil Is he on the
715
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:10.320
near side or the far side or the top side
716
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:11.320
of the bottom side of the boulder?
717
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:13.480
Do you remember Roberts is on the near side? So
718
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.920
where the where the where? You look at videos that
719
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:21.119
show the MAKEO three zero element and Chapman all, you know,
720
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:24.519
infilling and then going up the mountain that you can
721
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:28.119
actually see the hot spot that is petty Officer Roberts,
722
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:32.840
And he's kind of if you're looking at the boulder
723
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:39.280
and Bunker one, he's closer to Bunker one than he
724
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.920
is the far side of the boulder, Okay, but he's
725
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:44.280
propped up against the boulder.
726
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.599
Yeah, I don't know if that was included in the
727
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:52.760
the video and the analysis that what was his uh,
728
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:55.960
the gentleman who wrote the book, I can't remember, but
729
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:56.360
on the.
730
00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.920
Kid, Yeah, it's Dan Shilling, right, Dan Shilling that right
731
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.280
over my shoulder here, Lorie Chapman, Long Fritz and Dan
732
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.159
Chilling road alone at dawn. There's a great video out
733
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.719
there that Dan nir rates and that's based on the
734
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.679
culmination of all of the Air Force's research that went
735
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:20.239
into the John Chapman Medal of Honor package. So you
736
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.559
can you can look, you can see what's in that book,
737
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:24.800
and you can look at that video and hear what
738
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.599
Dan narrates, and you can take that as gospel.
739
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:33.440
Yeah. Okay. So so then how long before the make
740
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:36.599
A three team goes in for the recovery?
741
00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:41.519
Yeah, Without having the times right in front of me,
742
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:46.079
I can't give you an exact one. Roughly, I would
743
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.719
say it's probably about an hour before they get the
744
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:53.719
they re insert to try and recover Roberts. And the
745
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:58.519
difference is that so razors threes down in the valley
746
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.440
zero four infilled a separate MAKEU element, but they're the
747
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:07.320
second of the MH forty sevens. Because normally, you know,
748
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.639
any rotary lift is usually going to fly into two
749
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.920
ships so that they have self recovery capability. But they
750
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.519
had two distinct teams and two separate infill locations that
751
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:19.119
they were working. But zero four is not going to
752
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.039
come home until they've you know, gotten words on zero three.
753
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:24.760
So he's orbiting in what we would describe as a
754
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:28.360
black hole, you know, away from populated areas, but he's
755
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:31.119
terrain massed from a line of sight on the on
756
00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.199
the radios with his teammate ers zero three, who's now crashed.
757
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.960
So zero four's talking to us, We're talking to zero
758
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.440
three and we're giving them an update and Chappie as
759
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:49.239
three zero Charlie is is coordinating you know, the pickup.
760
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:53.320
And there's an interesting storyline there because you can look
761
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:56.400
at some of the videos and Slab says that he
762
00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:59.280
ended up having a mission change and now his mission
763
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.280
became to rest that air crew and as a teammates,
764
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:08.599
as a soft team on a helicopter that crashes. Unless
765
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:11.639
you literally gather those guys and you expill on the
766
00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:15.480
ground away from that, you're not rescuing anybody. You're being
767
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:20.159
rescued unless you're the combat controller who is trained to
768
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:23.679
coordinate rescue assets coming in and doing that sort of thing.
769
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:26.639
So Chappie is three zero, Charlie is the one who
770
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:31.800
actually coordinates via Grim three two two Razor zero four
771
00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:34.159
to come in and pick them up, and then they
772
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:38.039
reconstitute at the safehouse, figure out their plan of attack,
773
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:40.199
and then they come back to the top of the
774
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.960
mountain to recover Roberts. So there's videos out there. It's
775
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:47.840
part of the growing false narrative that the Navy pushed
776
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:51.599
with Gritzlovinski and one of those elements of what I
777
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.800
would consider stolen Valor. You know, John's the one who
778
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.239
affected the rescue of that crew, but the people that
779
00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:03.360
did the rescuing were Raizor zero four. So anyway, so
780
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:06.239
at splitting heres, but I think it detracts from the
781
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.400
credibility of Slab and the rest of the drama that
782
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:10.320
goes on with all of this.
783
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:13.960
Yeah, so are you guys on station then when that
784
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:15.559
insertion happens.
785
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:21.760
Yes, so we are. We're on station. And what sucks
786
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:27.239
during all of this As anybody under these circumstances, you
787
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:31.199
would want a close air support platform to potentially soften
788
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.119
targets to do some pre assault fires. But we are
789
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:39.599
a gunship thinking of a survivor on the ground and
790
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:43.119
everything is danger close proximity. And oh, by the way,
791
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.159
we were a crew that was involved in a fracture
792
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:50.039
side the very night before, and so you can, you know,
793
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.400
armchair quarterback it. I would tell you that the fracture
794
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:56.639
side event that happened the night before, while it was
795
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.840
in the mind of the crew, this crew was seasoned,
796
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:03.360
professional enough to put that piece aside and deal with
797
00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.480
the situation at hand. And the fratricite event from the
798
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:10.440
night before did not, you know, actually impact. Like the
799
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:13.360
reason why we didn't shoot. We didn't shoot free assault
800
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:15.760
fires because we didn't know for sure the status of
801
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.599
Roberts and he was literally danger close and by a definition,
802
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.119
there was nobody there that could give us the authority
803
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:26.440
to fire our munitions right there danger close proximity when
804
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.519
when he wasn't in comms given us the authorization because
805
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.719
he was the one in harm's way.
806
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.519
Baby. For instance, you said that you guys could identify
807
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.800
through thermal the rat lines and stuff, so you could
808
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:41.440
see the termination points, so you could essentially in a
809
00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:43.039
way identify the bunkers.
810
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:47.639
Correct, Yeah, we knew at times you could see the
811
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:50.760
personnel and then other times they would mask themselves, right,
812
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.719
camouflage concealment, but you knew where positions were. You could
813
00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:58.920
see where some trenches, you could see where some paths were.
814
00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:03.199
You could see areas that would definitely be of interest
815
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:08.119
for us to put down fires. But every one of
816
00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:11.000
those would have been in the danger close proximity of
817
00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:14.199
where Roberts was because of the how how close that
818
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:15.280
area is well.
819
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:17.639
And I don't want to Mandy Morning quarterback this because
820
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:20.039
obviously I wasn't there, and I'm like in the good
821
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:22.559
idea of fairy always happens afterwards. But you guys have
822
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.599
like smoke capability on on on your bird.
823
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.639
So there would have been back in the day we
824
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:31.840
would have flown with what they called Willie Pete rounds,
825
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:35.440
probably familiar with the white phosphorus. Yeah, we didn't have
826
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.880
them on board during during these but but yeah, that
827
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.199
the capabilities, yes, uh. And then one of the other things,
828
00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:45.840
you know, discussion that had happened between whether it was
829
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:49.360
command and control us on board that that sort of thing.
830
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:53.000
There were ideas of laying down fire on the far
831
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:56.000
side of the ridge and walking them up towards the
832
00:49:56.039 --> 00:50:01.360
fighter positions and then keeping our fire on the other
833
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.920
side of the boulder that them would have shielded Petty
834
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.519
Officer Roberts. So there were a number of tactical you know,
835
00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:13.039
considerations that were that were given that ultimately, like they
836
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:17.320
wanted pre assault fires, we didn't give them as a
837
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:19.679
result of, you know, not knowing the fate of robertson
838
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:24.639
again danger close sure, and then we were identifying the
839
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:28.239
spot that we wanted them to infill to and the
840
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:31.039
idea was that they would come in, get on the ground,
841
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:34.360
established two way coms with us, and then they would
842
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.679
talk us onto targets and then we would establish their
843
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:42.360
position on the mountain. Well, I think the tactical debate
844
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:45.239
and and this is you know, to put words in
845
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:48.440
the in the mouth of the team leader, you know,
846
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:51.920
And and maybe it's not even that I've seen interviews
847
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.000
and heard his his take on it, but they didn't
848
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.079
want to fight uphill. Uh. There was a sense of urgency.
849
00:50:58.119 --> 00:50:59.960
They had a teammate that was down. They wanted to
850
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:03.239
get right back to the X, and so the normal
851
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.480
consideration of either doing an offset or landing where we
852
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:10.079
had marked for them didn't make tactical sense to them,
853
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:12.679
and so they chose to blow right through our spot
854
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:15.760
and then infield literally right back on the X. Caught
855
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:19.000
us by surprise because we were literally lazing where we
856
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.159
wanted them to go right and then they blew right
857
00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:24.840
through it. And I remember, you know, us talking about
858
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:27.960
it because you know, somebody's like, hey, keep eyes on
859
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:30.159
on this, keep marking the LZ, and we're like, they're
860
00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:33.039
already back on the on the X. They already hit
861
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:35.760
the ground, and some of the crew that didn't have
862
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:38.199
eyes on the sensors that was them catching up on
863
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:41.880
the reality of what was going on. So it happened
864
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:42.440
pretty quick.
865
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:47.039
Yeah. So so they land on the X. You guys
866
00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:52.079
see uh, you guys see somebody fall and yet you
867
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.480
think that it's due to enemy fire. Later we found
868
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.320
out he just like it was snow, like you fell.
869
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.920
Yeah. So after after actions, you know, the order in
870
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.159
which they the team make O three zero all exits.
871
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:11.280
The aircraft slab was first. He doubles over, according to
872
00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:16.000
his account, in the snow, not not realizing how deep
873
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:19.280
that snow was. From an aircrew perspective, we literally thought
874
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:22.440
they had been hit by enemy fire and that he
875
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:26.400
was down down. That's what put Chapman on point, because
876
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:30.320
Chapman leap frogged over Slab at this point and he's
877
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:33.079
he's recovering from snow in the face and goggles and
878
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:36.480
everything else. And so Chapman's on point going up the
879
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:40.000
slope as the rest of the team gets gets together
880
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:43.840
to include Slab and they form a little circle some
881
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.480
folks WO call it a wagon wheel, and Chappy's slightly
882
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:51.599
upslope from them, so he's he's between their formation and
883
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:54.800
Bunker one, closest to the most formidable threat, which is
884
00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:57.400
Bunker one at this moment, right, and then they start
885
00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.159
taking fire from three different directions and all hell breaks.
886
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:04.079
Right, So Chappy, it looks to me like watching the video,
887
00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:09.079
CHAPPI moves to contact, and he is He's probably expecting
888
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:13.519
the people on his six to move to contact with him,
889
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.679
and they decided. You know, I'm not saying they're wrong.
890
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.239
I don't know their tactics, but they're not moving to contact.
891
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:26.159
They are deciding what they're going to do next.
892
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:33.159
Yes, So I'm gonna piece this together. Just culmination of stuff,
893
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:36.480
and this is access to people who had done the analysis,
894
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:41.719
other seals that had analyzed it, others Air Force Special Tactics,
895
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.239
folks that had looked at it what you had with
896
00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:48.119
you had two different thoughts and trains of thought, the
897
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:52.320
move to contact and then those that didn't. And there
898
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:56.599
there was a difference in training of tactics that was
899
00:53:56.840 --> 00:54:01.599
going on within that community. According to Eric Demming, he
900
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:06.400
had explained it to me as the close quarters defense
901
00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:10.440
guys that school of thought moved to contact and then
902
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:14.639
whatever this other variation of training tactics was, they didn't
903
00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:18.800
do it the same way. And so John goes towards
904
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:23.039
the gun and is attack the attacker. You've got to
905
00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:25.199
go through the ambush, as it was explained to me,
906
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:29.199
He's doing that, and a wedge never forms behind him. Instead,
907
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:32.159
they're breaking off into two man fire teams. So the
908
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:36.440
only person that actually follows behind Chappie is Slab himself.
909
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:41.480
Because two guys are covering down slope. Two guys are
910
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:45.840
going towards what if we just consider their infill point
911
00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:48.440
and look up the mountain, I'll just say left and right.
912
00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:51.599
Two guys go over to the left of the boulder,
913
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:56.039
and then that would put Chapman on point. Slab a
914
00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:00.360
good distance behind him going towards Bunker one, and Chappy
915
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:03.239
is the one, who is you know, laying hate to
916
00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:08.639
Bunker one, eliminates Bunker one. Eventually Slab catches up to him,
917
00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:12.360
but it's after Chappi's eliminated that threat, he's gone through
918
00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:16.400
a magazine or two. He he literally goes inside that
919
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:20.119
bunker and you know, eliminates him at point blank range.
920
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:23.599
And then after all of that, after he's gone in
921
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.480
and come out on the other side, that's when Slab
922
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:30.920
finally closes that distance and he fires some confirmatory shots
923
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:35.639
into the bunker. And then Slab and Chappier both than
924
00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:39.480
engaging what we call Bunker two that's higher above that,
925
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:42.679
and it's actually a bigger threat. It was just it
926
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:46.119
was masked by the tree and the rock there. So
927
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:51.719
Chappy's on the far right, and then Slab is approaching
928
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:55.639
Bunker two between the boulder and the tree that is
929
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:58.719
right there at Bunker one, so he's got some cover
930
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.440
and concealment, but they are both in the fray and
931
00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.880
they're both trying to direct fires at Bunker two, and
932
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:10.039
that's when Chappie sustains a mortal wound, gets taken out
933
00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:14.960
of the fight incapacitated, and ultimately Slab believes he's killed,
934
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:19.239
and then he ends up breaking contact from the bunker
935
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:21.960
two engagement, coming up with a different plan. You can
936
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:24.960
see that unfold on the video. There's a gunner that
937
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:28.599
climbs up on top of the rock. Enemy frags the
938
00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:30.840
top of the grenade, the top of that rock with
939
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:35.840
the grenade. The gunner falls down, and then shortly thereafter
940
00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:41.400
slabs assessing the situation, and the team makes a collective
941
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:46.960
decision to tactically retreat. They throw some smoke grenades to
942
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:50.440
cover their movement, and they break contact. And all of
943
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.000
this is unfolding before our eyes, and we do not
944
00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:56.519
have two way radio contact with the team at.
945
00:56:56.360 --> 00:57:01.480
All, right, And so, yeah, and that difference in tactics,
946
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:04.840
it's definitely to me, to me and and Jack, you've
947
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.559
seen the video. Like to me, Chapman was moving like
948
00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:09.800
a ranger like it was, you know, it was it
949
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.840
was infantry tactics, right, uh, movement to contact, and the
950
00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:17.039
Seals are not necessarily following that same protocol. They had
951
00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:19.719
their own sort of their own sort of protocol.
952
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:24.840
Yeah, Chappy wasn't foreign to this team, you know. So
953
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:28.280
he had worked with them and and he had not
954
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:30.360
only been in the field, he had done pre deployment
955
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:32.800
stuff with the with these same same teams. He was
956
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:36.840
he was no nubie when it came to working with
957
00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:39.079
with this particular seal team.
958
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:45.320
Yeah. Yeah, So then is there any point like during
959
00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:49.599
that operation where you guys real time realized that Chapman
960
00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:50.280
is still alive.
961
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.119
There's a moment of fog and friction, and it happens
962
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:59.760
right as they break contact. So the main element of
963
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:05.639
make breaks contact. We assume that all of Maco three
964
00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:11.039
zero is together except for petty Officer Roberts. The radio
965
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:15.199
call comes across and it is it's now slab on
966
00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:18.480
the radio and it is, hey, Grim, this is Maco
967
00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:21.360
three zero. We are no longer on top of the mountain.
968
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:26.320
Got troops down possible, KA need fire on tops now.
969
00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:30.119
And it's a it's an unconventional nine line, is what
970
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.880
he's telling us. Right, we know where they are. We've
971
00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:39.400
got a strobe on their main element. As you can imagine,
972
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:42.960
you get on top of an objective, if everybody has
973
00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:46.760
their strobe emitting, then it presents confusion for sensors that
974
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.760
are out there. So there'll be like one main guy
975
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.719
that keeps a strobe on for the team. And then
976
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:56.679
everybody else has the other marketing, you know, capabilities, and
977
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.480
we can see who's who. I will see that we
978
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:05.239
momentarily lost eyes on what would have been Chappy when
979
00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:09.559
he sustains that that initial mortal wound and is incapacitated
980
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:13.400
because when they break contact, Chappie's kind of under the
981
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:17.840
cover of the branches of that tree next to Bunker one,
982
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.559
and we think that that whole team is together, and
983
00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:24.239
when he says possible Kia, we assume that he's talking
984
00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:27.320
about Petty Officer Roberts, right, because they were literally right
985
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:30.280
next to Roberts up against that boulder, and so like
986
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:33.480
we're literally seeing them right next to each other. So
987
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:36.920
you know, the only thing that seems to make sense
988
00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:41.199
is that. But again you assume, right, So we didn't.
989
00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:44.960
You know, ttpees have sinse evolved and we're way more
990
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.920
deliberate about, you know, number of personnel that go on
991
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:51.039
an objective and calling out all of those those key
992
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.719
elements of information so that you keep tabs on all
993
00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:57.639
the right stuff. But at that moment, no, we didn't know.
994
00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:02.280
And he calls for fire and we immediately start trying
995
01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:06.800
to put down rounds well onside on board the gunship,
996
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:10.400
we're trying to shoot with the forty millimeter bofors and
997
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.679
on the specter we call that gun five. There's a
998
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:16.880
gun malfunction with gun five. The gunners have to take
999
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:20.440
that down, so we switch over primary weapon to gun six,
1000
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:25.679
the one oh five howitzer. The we had proximity rounds
1001
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:28.440
loaded in the one oh five, so the gunners have
1002
01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:31.079
to do a round change because that proximity round the
1003
01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:33.440
way that thing's gonna work, it's gonna spin up. And
1004
01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:35.800
when it the way the fuse works on that thing,
1005
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:38.000
after it gets so many feet above the ground, it's
1006
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:40.239
gonna air burst and it's gonna shrapnel.
1007
01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:40.639
Right.
1008
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:45.039
So, since you've got a potential friendly and unknown you know,
1009
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:49.960
unknown status, we don't want to shoot the prox rounds
1010
01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:53.960
unless we're literally we know that we're shooting its soft
1011
01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:57.840
enemy targets. So they switch over to a point that
1012
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.559
natan round that takes the better part of half in orbit.
1013
01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:04.840
So we're talking from the call for fire to the
1014
01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:07.679
initial rounds impacting, probably about a minute and a half
1015
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:11.519
or so have transpired. So we start going hot with
1016
01:01:11.559 --> 01:01:15.719
the one oh five. The infrared sensors primary on that gun.
1017
01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:19.760
The TV sensor. He can see all light level TV.
1018
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:24.639
So think of this like an MVG capability. He can
1019
01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:29.920
see the ambient light that's magnified sixty somewhat thousand times
1020
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.039
that of what it actually is. So he's looking for
1021
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:38.559
light sources. And a gunship's tactics will end up being where,
1022
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:42.599
you know, if one sensor's firing, another sensor will always
1023
01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:47.360
be primary on the friendlies, so that sensor is the
1024
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:50.519
TV Chris. Chris is primary on the friendlies, So he's
1025
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:53.199
scanning back and forth where the IR is engaging and
1026
01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:56.639
where the friendlies have egress too, and that way we
1027
01:01:56.679 --> 01:01:58.920
can keep tabs on what's going on, and then he
1028
01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:03.880
can also look for light emissions around where we're actually engaging. Well,
1029
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:06.480
it's in that moment of those initial rounds that we
1030
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:09.239
put down that are all one oh five on those
1031
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:14.039
known fighting positions up around the higher terrain elevation that
1032
01:02:14.239 --> 01:02:17.800
Chris says, Hey, FOCO, that's the fire control officer that's
1033
01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:20.639
in charge of the sensors that are actually doing the shooting.
1034
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:23.760
He's like, hey, Folco, I've got another strobe up here.
1035
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:25.719
He's like, but this one doesn't look like the others
1036
01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:27.960
I've got like the main element of friendlies are here,
1037
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.840
and I got this other strobe here. And so as
1038
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.400
a crew they start to deconflict like what they're actually seeing,
1039
01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:37.960
what we're seeing doesn't match what we just heard from
1040
01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:42.320
slab is Maco three zero. And then before you ever
1041
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:45.639
get a chance to really communicate that particular fog and friction,
1042
01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:49.400
the enemy starts lobbing mortars in on top of the
1043
01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:52.559
LZ and they're walking them close to where the make
1044
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:56.280
up element is, so you're onto the next closest alligator
1045
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.119
to the boat. So we saw that strobe come active,
1046
01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:03.360
and I've seen it. I saw it in real time.
1047
01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:06.280
I saw it better, you know, in the aftermath of
1048
01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:10.079
all the analysis. Well you see Chappie literally crawl back
1049
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.800
into Bunker one at that point. And so what makes
1050
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:17.480
sense to me is that his strobe looks different either
1051
01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:21.320
a because he was using a different, different strobe, like
1052
01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:25.000
maybe a backup strobe. We had little little ir Firefly
1053
01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:26.679
as we called him, that stuck on the end of
1054
01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:30.159
nine volt batteries. If it wasn't that, if if he
1055
01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:33.400
was used in the same exact strobe, then perhaps it
1056
01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:38.320
was the the disbursement of light based on the tree
1057
01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:41.880
canopy or the any covering that would have been over
1058
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:46.960
the bunker area. So anyway, there was a distinct, you know,
1059
01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:49.960
light emission difference when you're looking at those from the
1060
01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:55.360
from the footage, and then we're literally going after, you know,
1061
01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:58.440
the mortar situation and trying to cover the team's movement
1062
01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:01.440
and they're moving further from down the mountain at this point.
1063
01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:04.840
And we'd never come back to the idea of there
1064
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:08.239
being one of their original team that went back after
1065
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:11.079
Roberts being left up there. We never knew that they
1066
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:13.880
left a teammate behind, but we did see that stroke
1067
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.920
come active, and that was the the aha moment. But
1068
01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:21.840
you're now covering the movement of the team, you're onto
1069
01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:24.840
something else. You don't have radio coms with anybody else
1070
01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:28.119
up there, and the sun's coming up and Command and
1071
01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:31.840
Control is ordering us off station, you name it. It's
1072
01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:34.679
like Murphy had a party up there that night.
1073
01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.880
So yeah, and one of the things about the AC
1074
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.639
platform that maybe the viewers don't know is because it
1075
01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:46.800
is a slow moving, low flying aircraft, the Air Force
1076
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:50.039
is not like them up when the sun is up.
1077
01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:56.000
Yeah, it was expressly against our our doctrine to operate
1078
01:04:56.159 --> 01:05:00.679
during during daytime operations, and it's times back to the
1079
01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:03.760
First Golf War. There's an aircraft that everybody in the
1080
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:09.000
gunship community knows, Spirit zero three. They were they were
1081
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.360
done with their mission. There were marines that needed support.
1082
01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:17.039
There wasn't believed to be certain serfs to air missile
1083
01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:20.679
threats in the AOH in that area of operations at
1084
01:05:20.679 --> 01:05:23.800
the time, and the gunship stayed in daylight to help
1085
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:27.239
out some marines that needed close air support lo and
1086
01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:32.800
behold shoulder launched serfs to airmen, you know, missile manpad
1087
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:35.920
Man portable air defense system gets launched up at them
1088
01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:39.639
and it takes out Spirit zero three and kills the crew.
1089
01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:43.599
So that is, you know, it's one of those things
1090
01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:46.320
like when you go through gunship training, when you go
1091
01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:48.599
through any of our formal training, it's they have a
1092
01:05:48.639 --> 01:05:52.039
Spirit zero three award in the formal schoolhouse, you know,
1093
01:05:52.159 --> 01:05:54.119
for that top student and that sort of thing. So
1094
01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:57.239
like you know this story. If you fly gunships, so
1095
01:05:57.280 --> 01:06:00.320
everybody knows, don't fly during day daylight at this point time.
1096
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.719
So anyway, they're they're literally ordering this off station. Sun's
1097
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.199
coming up. It is, you know, past that moment of
1098
01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:10.440
what we call beginning morning nautical twilight, so it's when
1099
01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.639
you can first start to distinct, you know, daylight from
1100
01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:17.760
from darkness. Type of deal we had. We had shut
1101
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.719
off a couple of UH commandic control radios because we
1102
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:24.280
didn't like what we were hearing from them, and they
1103
01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:29.000
were kind of muddy, muddying up the airwaves from our perspective,
1104
01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:32.719
so you know, we didn't like being told to go home.
1105
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:35.719
So from a from a cruise standpoint, we had all
1106
01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:38.519
checked in nose to tail on call at the direction
1107
01:06:38.599 --> 01:06:40.920
of the pilot, like, hey, we know what's going on here,
1108
01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:44.679
Uh stay or go? Everybody check in and and it
1109
01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:47.599
was unanimous from UH from nose to tail that we
1110
01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:51.199
wanted to stay and not leave those guys behind. Mhm.
1111
01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:52.559
We all.
1112
01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:57.960
Higher headquarters prevailed ended up getting ahold of us. Even
1113
01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:00.639
though we had shut off that particular com net. They
1114
01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:02.760
found us on another one and we couldn't hide from
1115
01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:06.199
them anymore and we had to break contact. So as
1116
01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:09.719
we were doing that, we facilitated a handoff with a
1117
01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:12.079
two ship of F fifteen e Strike Eagles. It was
1118
01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.239
twister five to one and five to two. Gave them
1119
01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:19.039
the lowdown, gave them that last known position of Roberts
1120
01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:21.280
in that bunker where we had seen the strobe, gave
1121
01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:23.639
them the last known position of the main Maco element,
1122
01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:26.360
told them what was going on, told you know, hey,
1123
01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:29.840
it's hot, don't go back up there. And then in
1124
01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:32.840
that fog and friction, none of that information makes it
1125
01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:36.239
to the QRF, the Quick Reaction Force helicopters that are
1126
01:07:36.760 --> 01:07:39.239
raisor zero one and zero two, with the Ranger elements
1127
01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:42.119
that are coming in to help build those guys out.
1128
01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:46.559
They do a seventeen plus hour stand. At this point
1129
01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:51.599
We've recovered up in Uzbekistan, so I'm not there for
1130
01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:54.840
the rest of that battle, but it was a significant
1131
01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:57.199
one and the Rangers saved the day.
1132
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:02.519
So in Shillings video, because we see like the time
1133
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:09.079
after Chapman recovers and then re engages what what uh?
1134
01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:11.360
And that's one video I believe right, it's not a
1135
01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:15.800
compilation video, so it's one.
1136
01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:21.039
Video that he has he has narrated. There are splicing
1137
01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:25.960
of different sensors times during during that, but they're all
1138
01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:30.920
times synced. So it is as accurate of a depiction
1139
01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:35.600
as you could get from the totality of footage that existed.
1140
01:08:35.319 --> 01:08:39.119
So you do you recall what the other because because
1141
01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:45.319
you left as Chapman crawled back into Bunker one and
1142
01:08:45.399 --> 01:08:49.319
then and then there's still like Chapman like there's hours
1143
01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:53.279
after that, correct hours where he continues to fight. Do
1144
01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:55.680
you know what other platforms were involved in that?
1145
01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:00.359
Yeah, so there's a there's a Navy platform that nobody
1146
01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:05.119
wants to talk about. There's predator that is up there.
1147
01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:11.319
That's the majority of the other footage. But the when
1148
01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:17.640
I mentioned the the Roberts footage before, the Navy possesses
1149
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:20.520
the footage that showed what Roberts did up there that night,
1150
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:24.199
and okay, and they're they're part of why why you
1151
01:09:24.199 --> 01:09:25.159
don't see it anymore?
1152
01:09:25.399 --> 01:09:31.399
Yeah. So so at any point in time, Uh so,
1153
01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:35.680
so with these predator feeds and these other platforms, are
1154
01:09:35.720 --> 01:09:39.920
are there people real time watching Chapman continue to fight?
1155
01:09:41.119 --> 01:09:46.800
Yes? Yeah, so there the the theories like if you
1156
01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:49.279
go back to the book that was written by Malcolm
1157
01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:53.880
McPherson called Roberts Ridge, he he had you know, access
1158
01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:57.239
to the people and the studies and the information that
1159
01:09:57.279 --> 01:09:58.880
was out there at the time. I think that book
1160
01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:03.840
published in five The theories were there were there were
1161
01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:07.119
three of them. People thought that that that person still
1162
01:10:07.159 --> 01:10:10.199
fighting up there was Roberts. Then there was the Air
1163
01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:12.880
Force's uh, you know side of it, that it was Chapman.
1164
01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:16.159
And then the competing theory was that it was red
1165
01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:20.359
on red as an enemy fighting enemy in broad daylight
1166
01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:23.960
in close quarters, shooting each other in the face, right,
1167
01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:27.760
that one that one does not hold water. Yeah, and
1168
01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:32.479
that that continues to be part of the counter narrative
1169
01:10:32.600 --> 01:10:36.439
that the Navy pushed the whole time so that they
1170
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:40.279
didn't have to face the music. That Chapman survived. He
1171
01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:44.479
was unfortunately left now at the time, in real time,
1172
01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:48.079
like they didn't know. I believe that they they assumed
1173
01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:49.079
that he was taken out.
1174
01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:49.760
Okay.
1175
01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:52.520
I think that was just straight up fog and friction
1176
01:10:52.600 --> 01:10:57.159
of war and an honest mistake and under the tactical circumstances.
1177
01:10:57.479 --> 01:10:59.840
Whether the Seals ever want to admit that they left
1178
01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:02.920
somebody behind, it just is what it is, and that's
1179
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:06.840
what happened in this case. Yeah, So like I don't
1180
01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:11.239
fault anybody for that at all. You know, look back
1181
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:13.479
in the you know the cases that I tell you
1182
01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:17.920
where our mistakes were re assault fires, the fracture side
1183
01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:21.079
the night before, you know, clarifying, Hey, we saw a
1184
01:11:21.119 --> 01:11:23.560
strobe in the midst of all that. Like, there's so
1185
01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:25.720
many things that could be hot washed and debriefed and
1186
01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:28.199
everybody could learn and be better and be stronger the
1187
01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:32.319
next day for it, if people would have the integrity
1188
01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:36.560
to just own your mistake and accept it and make
1189
01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:40.439
yourself and your organization, your unit bigger, better, faster, stronger tomorrow.
1190
01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:44.119
Well, you know, and there's obviously there there's a reason,
1191
01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:46.920
or at least a perceived reason why they don't, whether
1192
01:11:47.000 --> 01:11:50.960
it's internal you know, you know higher going oh you know,
1193
01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:53.720
you messed up, or it's the public, the public not
1194
01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:56.439
understanding fog wort. You know, we can look at stuff
1195
01:11:56.439 --> 01:11:58.479
like Tilman, like we can look at all these things,
1196
01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:02.439
and people have been in comberos, you know, what should happens. Unfortunately,
1197
01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:05.199
like there there is the fog war. You know, their
1198
01:12:05.479 --> 01:12:08.279
mistakes happen all the time. It's horrible. We try to
1199
01:12:08.319 --> 01:12:11.640
mitigate it, but they happen, and the civilians won't. The
1200
01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:15.399
civilians often won't get that, they don't understand how those
1201
01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:19.479
things happen. And also if there's there's you know, punitive
1202
01:12:19.520 --> 01:12:22.880
stuff going on. But I thought what was really interesting
1203
01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:25.159
with this is you told us something that we had
1204
01:12:25.199 --> 01:12:31.279
never heard before, that that this looks like or I
1205
01:12:31.319 --> 01:12:33.640
don't want to say it, well to me, I'll say,
1206
01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:36.079
to me, it looks like it was a cover up
1207
01:12:36.079 --> 01:12:41.840
from the very beginning, because you said that that Deak
1208
01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:46.439
group actually sent people up to confiscate the video.
1209
01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:50.880
Yeah, the very naxt day, the very next day, so
1210
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:55.239
you know that period of darkness is three to four March, right,
1211
01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:59.239
So we're landing in the early daylight hours of four March.
1212
01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:03.640
The next day, on the fifth, somebody had showed up
1213
01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:08.119
at Uzbekistan, at Karshi Kanabad and confiscated the tapes.
1214
01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:12.239
Did they even have like the authority to do that,
1215
01:13:12.279 --> 01:13:14.319
because you guys are in like separate commands.
1216
01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.600
That's a good question, you know. So a couple of
1217
01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:23.359
dudes showed up said handed over. You know, I went
1218
01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:27.439
there when when that east happened. I know who was
1219
01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:30.560
I've spoken directly to him. He said it was two
1220
01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:35.000
guys from Blue that showed up in suits, not in
1221
01:13:35.119 --> 01:13:38.039
uniform and said you'll hand it over. And it was
1222
01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:43.279
based on their commander down the barroom. So exactly what
1223
01:13:43.399 --> 01:13:47.239
authority they cited. But yeah, at that point we fell
1224
01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:50.439
subordinate to what would have been Task Force Dagger, and
1225
01:13:50.479 --> 01:13:54.119
then you know, there's a there's a handful of elements.
1226
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:57.479
I don't want to mistate anything, but I went I
1227
01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:00.600
was part of everything from TIF Sword to DAG to
1228
01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:03.720
support in k Bar and somewhere in there t F
1229
01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:07.520
eleven showed up. So there's a there's a whole you know,
1230
01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:11.680
change of like who's running what show.
1231
01:14:11.880 --> 01:14:14.800
But it wasn't It wasn't like somebody coming down from Jaysock,
1232
01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:18.520
for instance. It was directly from the command itself, from
1233
01:14:18.640 --> 01:14:21.840
from DEV Group coming which is what makes it particularly
1234
01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:23.079
odd or regular.
1235
01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:26.760
That's my understanding. Now, I don't know, you know, like
1236
01:14:27.479 --> 01:14:30.119
I think everybody that is familiar with this knows that
1237
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:34.720
General Trebone was the DCG, the Deputy Commanding General at
1238
01:14:34.720 --> 01:14:38.039
the time that was there forward with them, So I
1239
01:14:38.039 --> 01:14:41.319
don't know if they cited his name or authority or what,
1240
01:14:41.479 --> 01:14:44.079
but yeah, they confiscated it.
1241
01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:45.960
Yeah that you know.
1242
01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:47.800
So here's the funny thing, and I'll fast forward a
1243
01:14:47.840 --> 01:14:52.239
little bit. But those tapes are initially recorded on VHS,
1244
01:14:52.520 --> 01:14:55.560
they're converted to the digital and stored on a CD
1245
01:14:55.720 --> 01:14:59.239
ROM and the VHS is get recorded over and you
1246
01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:03.159
know Rinston repeated, you know, on mission after mission, so
1247
01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:08.079
they're washed out of the VHS, they're stored on the digital. Well,
1248
01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:12.720
the analyst had already uploaded that stuff to DoD because
1249
01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:16.079
of the significance of what had happened. So that stuff
1250
01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:20.479
had transited via email over a server that was deployed
1251
01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:24.359
with this we called it the Terror Server. Well, in
1252
01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:27.800
the end they confiscated the cd ROMs. What they didn't
1253
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:32.840
realize is that the packets of information that transited over
1254
01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:36.479
that Terror server still resided on the Terra server itself.
1255
01:15:36.800 --> 01:15:40.479
They just happened to be partitioned into two thousand little chunks.
1256
01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:46.479
So in the end, during the Air Force research they
1257
01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:50.640
pieced all of that together complainte with all the correct timestamps.
1258
01:15:51.359 --> 01:15:54.159
I know the individual that did it, Jackie, did a
1259
01:15:54.199 --> 01:15:57.279
hell of a job on that one, between her and
1260
01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:00.520
Frank Daily, the analysts that was there at the time
1261
01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:04.760
and started out as the initial analyst to do the
1262
01:16:06.039 --> 01:16:09.640
research for John Chapman's Medal of Honor. What would have
1263
01:16:09.640 --> 01:16:13.279
been the it was like a higher valor review board
1264
01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:16.800
or something valor decoration board or something that was commissioned
1265
01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:20.399
by the Air Force Special Operations Command based on guidance
1266
01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:21.640
from the Secretary of the Air Force.
1267
01:16:22.159 --> 01:16:23.960
Rob Just one quick follow up to that.
1268
01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:28.479
In your career, how many times do you have mi
1269
01:16:28.520 --> 01:16:31.439
ib's show up and confiscate tapeline?
1270
01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:35.000
Yeah? Do you ever see anybody from Red or Green
1271
01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:35.600
or any.
1272
01:16:36.279 --> 01:16:41.119
Or another command, a superior command, a subordinate command, anything.
1273
01:16:42.279 --> 01:16:47.840
Yeah. So the moment we landed, our number two in
1274
01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:52.439
command for the specters that were deployed, he met us
1275
01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:55.399
at the aircraft the moment that the crew door opened
1276
01:16:55.439 --> 01:16:57.920
and said, give me the tapes. Not welcome back, not
1277
01:16:58.039 --> 01:17:01.600
how you doing, just give me the tapes. So we
1278
01:17:01.640 --> 01:17:05.680
gave him the tapes. We knew that, you know, something
1279
01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:08.840
significant had transpired. How we just covered the mission, right.
1280
01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:12.960
So as that's going on, he's going back into the talk.
1281
01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:15.399
I don't know what he's doing with the tapes at
1282
01:17:15.439 --> 01:17:19.119
that point, but they have to get immediately triaged, right,
1283
01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:22.000
So they had to transmit stuff. They got that piece
1284
01:17:22.039 --> 01:17:25.800
done before the men in black showed up and confiscated
1285
01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:31.640
what was believed to be the only copy. So when
1286
01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:35.279
when that colonel showed up and said give me the tapes,
1287
01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:38.159
we had deplaned and there were a couple of us
1288
01:17:38.159 --> 01:17:40.079
from the tach crew who had met up underneath the
1289
01:17:40.119 --> 01:17:43.359
left wing, and that's where we're having that initial conversation
1290
01:17:43.560 --> 01:17:46.680
of Chris is like from the TV center, He's like,
1291
01:17:46.760 --> 01:17:49.520
there was somebody still up there when we left. He's like,
1292
01:17:49.640 --> 01:17:52.680
we left somebody alive fighting on top of that mountain.
1293
01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:56.199
He was still up there, So that thought is in
1294
01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:59.560
our mind. But at the same time, we just landed,
1295
01:17:59.680 --> 01:18:01.760
were imdiately going into crew rest, and you're going to
1296
01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:03.920
fly the next day to cover the next group of
1297
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:09.720
guys that need your help. So the debrief is somewhat hasty.
1298
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:12.680
It's done. They've got the tapes, they'll triage it. We
1299
01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:15.359
give them what we can from an intelligence standpoint, and
1300
01:18:15.399 --> 01:18:19.239
then we're onto the next mission. So this thing essentially
1301
01:18:19.720 --> 01:18:21.199
like when they show up and they say give me
1302
01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:24.520
the tapes, like that thing is put to rest. It's
1303
01:18:24.520 --> 01:18:29.840
put to bed until you know. Service secretaries say, hey,
1304
01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:33.640
what about how come you know? The question was what
1305
01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:35.680
does it take to win the Medal of Honor? I
1306
01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:38.720
think is the quote from the article from the Secretary
1307
01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:42.159
of the Air Force at the time. Because there is
1308
01:18:42.239 --> 01:18:46.039
a ton of significant valor stories, especially out of the
1309
01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:49.279
Air Force Special Tactics community, I could think of a
1310
01:18:49.319 --> 01:18:52.600
handful that should be on a list for consideration for
1311
01:18:52.800 --> 01:18:57.760
Medal of Honor upgrade. But Chapman's story resonated with those
1312
01:18:57.880 --> 01:19:02.279
that recalled it. It was the strongest case for evidence
1313
01:19:02.359 --> 01:19:05.279
for an upgrade. And then with the ability to piece
1314
01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:08.960
meal all of the two thousand chunks of the original
1315
01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:13.039
footage back together, then they were able to make the case.
1316
01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:15.800
And then it only got stronger from there. There's a
1317
01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:19.119
number of elements of analysis that went into to all
1318
01:19:19.119 --> 01:19:22.720
of this, from the imagery analysis to the medical forensics,
1319
01:19:23.199 --> 01:19:25.159
you name it. It goes further.
1320
01:19:25.399 --> 01:19:31.720
So let's let's continue with your chronology, because this does
1321
01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.319
come back what we're talking about right now, the review
1322
01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:38.880
and everything. You're actually a part of that around twenty fourteen, right, So,
1323
01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:43.760
but between this point in twenty fourteen, I want to
1324
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:46.600
continue with your story. I know we'll we'll back, we'll
1325
01:19:46.640 --> 01:19:50.199
roll back to this. So from that deployment, which was
1326
01:19:50.199 --> 01:19:55.880
about roughly a six month deployment, you then go relanguage, right, yeah,
1327
01:19:56.920 --> 01:20:01.439
and then and then and you get involved with MC
1328
01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:02.359
twelve project.
1329
01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:10.119
Yes, So between between O two and eleven, I had
1330
01:20:10.479 --> 01:20:14.439
stayed essentially in that particular mission UH as a direct
1331
01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:20.800
sport operator for various assoc platforms relanguaged UH, you know,
1332
01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:24.920
picked up Somali. I I came back to the unit
1333
01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:29.560
at this point. I'm a I'm an experienced seasoned operator, instructor, evaluator.
1334
01:20:31.079 --> 01:20:34.279
We end up having a new mission that emerges that
1335
01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:38.920
we call it a light I SR mission as a
1336
01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:44.039
light aircraft Intel surveillance reconnaissance. We're doing precision geo location,
1337
01:20:44.560 --> 01:20:48.039
working with a lot of full motion video. Essentially, we're
1338
01:20:48.079 --> 01:20:50.640
the find and fix to find in all the bad
1339
01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:53.880
guys that are out there. So we were we were
1340
01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:57.760
building this UH, this capability. As a seasoned operator on
1341
01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:01.119
one side, I was asked to help stand that up.
1342
01:21:01.199 --> 01:21:05.560
So we had one hundred new airmen that showed up
1343
01:21:06.199 --> 01:21:09.159
in this flavor over the span of about a year
1344
01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:13.000
year and a half. Hell I probably personally trained about
1345
01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:16.399
fifty five of the first one hundred. But we built
1346
01:21:16.399 --> 01:21:20.920
out this capability to do this new mission set and
1347
01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.760
that led to me getting selected to help. They called
1348
01:21:24.800 --> 01:21:29.319
it normalizing the MC twelve platform. So MC twelve was
1349
01:21:29.439 --> 01:21:33.279
berthed out of a contingency need and they were trying
1350
01:21:33.319 --> 01:21:36.880
to expand this same mission of precision geolocation matched with
1351
01:21:37.520 --> 01:21:42.520
full motion video sensors to conventional forces beyond just that
1352
01:21:42.640 --> 01:21:46.359
of a traditional soft customer. And so while that was
1353
01:21:46.359 --> 01:21:48.560
being done, it was all done as a pickup game.
1354
01:21:49.000 --> 01:21:54.319
So the capability is literally bought and fielded. Within six months,
1355
01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.279
it rivaled out of the P fifty one Mustang. This
1356
01:21:57.279 --> 01:22:00.199
thing got all kinds of accolades over the year. How
1357
01:22:00.239 --> 01:22:04.359
they even competed for the what they call the Collier Trophy.
1358
01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:09.680
It's a National Aeronautic Association, So think of the mars
1359
01:22:09.800 --> 01:22:15.399
Lander and Felix Bombgardner, who you know, parachuted from outer space.
1360
01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:20.079
We were competing against the likes of those platforms for
1361
01:22:20.239 --> 01:22:25.600
the most significant contribution to aviation, all based on the
1362
01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:31.239
speed and scope of the Project Liberty. So anyway, when
1363
01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:35.760
they do that mission, that mission is birth from idea.
1364
01:22:36.359 --> 01:22:39.479
It's being fielded by the Mississippi Air National Guard, my
1365
01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:44.840
home state, and then everybody basically goes down to Mississippi,
1366
01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.039
gets trained up on the aircraft, gets qualified, and then
1367
01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:50.039
goes forward and operates them. You know, whether it's in
1368
01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:52.439
Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever they happen to be poor
1369
01:22:52.560 --> 01:22:55.920
deployed to at the time. This is the capabilities fielded
1370
01:22:55.960 --> 01:23:00.000
around nine and so by eleven the Air Force is said, Okay,
1371
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:02.920
we're no longer going to make this just a pickup game.
1372
01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:06.119
We want them to have a traditional you know, host
1373
01:23:06.199 --> 01:23:10.199
wing that owns that mission. And they decide to make
1374
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:13.079
the ninth Reconaissance Wing at Beal Air Force Base out
1375
01:23:13.119 --> 01:23:17.680
in north of Sacramento, California, the home station for it.
1376
01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:20.319
So I get I get tasked to go out there,
1377
01:23:20.439 --> 01:23:23.479
stand up a unit of intelligence operators that we're going
1378
01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:27.159
to operate the back of it. And yeah, the rest
1379
01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:30.880
was history. Spent three years with that mission based on
1380
01:23:31.159 --> 01:23:34.119
prior experiences, you know, kind of hand picked for it,
1381
01:23:35.439 --> 01:23:39.000
grew a capability with some some awesome young airmen. They
1382
01:23:39.039 --> 01:23:42.039
really kicked butt. And then after three years of that,
1383
01:23:42.119 --> 01:23:45.680
I got brought back down to our parent ISR group,
1384
01:23:46.680 --> 01:23:50.239
you know, an echelon above the squadrons as an op
1385
01:23:50.319 --> 01:23:53.520
superintendent and then eventually made chief out of there. And
1386
01:23:53.560 --> 01:23:56.039
that's when I got that's in that fourteen to sixteen
1387
01:23:56.119 --> 01:23:59.239
time period where I was brought onto the Chapman you know,
1388
01:23:59.680 --> 01:24:00.560
research project.
1389
01:24:00.920 --> 01:24:04.199
So and I didn't mean to skip so far ahead
1390
01:24:04.199 --> 01:24:08.039
if we missed anything significant within the rest of your
1391
01:24:08.039 --> 01:24:10.600
time in and out of the twenty fifth because you know,
1392
01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:14.000
from two thousand and one to twenty eleven is quite
1393
01:24:14.039 --> 01:24:16.800
a tour. Do we miss anything significant?
1394
01:24:16.960 --> 01:24:22.159
Well, so, I mean a couple of just quick, I guess,
1395
01:24:22.359 --> 01:24:25.920
brief highlights. But you mentioned Pat Tillman. I was in
1396
01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:30.520
Afghanistan and four when that unfolded. I was not airborne
1397
01:24:31.000 --> 01:24:35.199
in the midst of the firefight that took Pat's life,
1398
01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:39.319
but the aftermath of his unit going after the guys
1399
01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:44.319
that ambushed them. I was there for that. That was interesting.
1400
01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:46.840
I was part of the I was on the ramp.
1401
01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:49.520
I was in in the hangar when they recited the
1402
01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:52.800
Ranger Creed got to listen to all of the stanzas
1403
01:24:52.840 --> 01:24:55.159
and we sat out there and did the honor guide
1404
01:24:55.199 --> 01:24:58.720
on with our head lamps as we repatriated his body
1405
01:24:59.239 --> 01:25:01.800
via Humby on to a C seventeen and he was
1406
01:25:01.840 --> 01:25:09.079
flown back Stateside fast forward. I was on a on
1407
01:25:09.159 --> 01:25:13.520
a mission in the Horn of Africa. So most people
1408
01:25:13.560 --> 01:25:17.720
know about the Marisk, the Marisk Alabama. After that, there
1409
01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:21.760
was the there was a blue water yacht that had
1410
01:25:21.800 --> 01:25:26.079
been pirated. I was I was overhead that aftermath, and
1411
01:25:26.119 --> 01:25:29.159
that one was a mess, uh not the way things
1412
01:25:29.199 --> 01:25:33.319
typically go down. And there's some there's some his some
1413
01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:38.720
historical you know seal you know information that that coincides
1414
01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:43.239
with how the Alabama went down and then what happened
1415
01:25:43.319 --> 01:25:47.720
with the Blue Water Yacht incident, and so the Seals
1416
01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:50.560
had basically been put on a leash. And so the
1417
01:25:52.239 --> 01:25:58.359
a hostage piracy recovery type of mission, the way you
1418
01:25:58.359 --> 01:26:02.359
would typically think it would unfold, did not unfold the
1419
01:26:02.399 --> 01:26:05.960
way you would have expected. During that Blue Water Yacht deal,
1420
01:26:06.479 --> 01:26:11.439
they had been handcuffed so bad that essentially they they
1421
01:26:11.479 --> 01:26:16.880
had coaxed the head pirate off of the boat, brought
1422
01:26:16.960 --> 01:26:20.119
him on board a naval warship and he was going
1423
01:26:20.199 --> 01:26:23.319
to you know, negotiate, you know, the the transaction for
1424
01:26:23.399 --> 01:26:25.960
payment and all that kind of stuff. Well, obviously once
1425
01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:27.479
we had him in our custody, they weren't going to
1426
01:26:27.560 --> 01:26:30.359
let him go. And so then you had a bunch
1427
01:26:30.359 --> 01:26:34.600
of idiots, idiot pirates that are left and they all
1428
01:26:34.640 --> 01:26:37.800
flip out and in broad daylight, the assault takes place.
1429
01:26:38.279 --> 01:26:42.680
Everybody dies. It was it was horrible, but I was
1430
01:26:42.800 --> 01:26:45.199
I was overhead that one. That that one just sucked.
1431
01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:48.880
But if you if you think about the storylines that
1432
01:26:48.960 --> 01:26:53.119
go along with with some of the the narratives that
1433
01:26:53.239 --> 01:26:56.399
get spun out of some of the Seal war stories.
1434
01:26:57.760 --> 01:27:03.560
I'm not saying the entire community is tainted, but when
1435
01:27:03.560 --> 01:27:07.479
we look at the Chapman incident and how all of
1436
01:27:07.479 --> 01:27:12.039
that stuff unfolded, you look back, who has the high
1437
01:27:12.079 --> 01:27:16.520
ground here and that is the Air Force, Okay, because
1438
01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:19.760
when it comes to seals and stories, you know, off
1439
01:27:19.800 --> 01:27:22.880
the battlefield. Dude, we could sit here and have a
1440
01:27:22.880 --> 01:27:26.439
three hour episode going through just stuff over the last
1441
01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:30.960
twenty years. Yeah, Like I remember going through a Joint
1442
01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:34.600
Special Operations Senior Listed Academy. Votel was the commander at
1443
01:27:34.680 --> 01:27:37.880
SOCOM at the time, and one of the biggest things
1444
01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:40.479
that we were hitting. This is in the late fifteen
1445
01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:45.000
time period, and we were still hitting on that incident
1446
01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:48.079
where they had fragged the hostage with the grenade and
1447
01:27:48.119 --> 01:27:51.119
they had lied about using grenades on the objective, and
1448
01:27:51.159 --> 01:27:54.239
everything was about the integrity and why it was important
1449
01:27:54.319 --> 01:27:57.359
to own your mistakes and to fess up and so forth.
1450
01:27:57.800 --> 01:27:59.319
And we're coming out of all of that and it's
1451
01:27:59.319 --> 01:28:01.680
like nobody he ever learns anything. All they do is
1452
01:28:01.760 --> 01:28:04.960
just create another false narrative, pinna metal on somebody and
1453
01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:10.039
move on and just can continue this legend. It's I
1454
01:28:10.600 --> 01:28:12.880
find it distasteful. I don't think it does them any
1455
01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:17.079
real honor. I would love to respect the Trident, but
1456
01:28:18.199 --> 01:28:20.319
right now there's a handful that just tarnished the shit
1457
01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:20.960
out of it for me.
1458
01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:25.079
Yeah, yeah, Now we're when you said they were handcuffed
1459
01:28:25.079 --> 01:28:28.960
on the Blue Water yayte. What was that because of
1460
01:28:29.079 --> 01:28:32.039
actions that they took on the Marask or was it?
1461
01:28:32.319 --> 01:28:36.960
That's my understanding now, Like I I wasn't directly involved
1462
01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:40.760
in the in the Marisk Alabama piece, but it was
1463
01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:44.239
my understanding that those guys went off a little half
1464
01:28:44.319 --> 01:28:48.079
cocked and how they executed that one. They were successful,
1465
01:28:48.199 --> 01:28:50.159
you know, like they did it and you know there's
1466
01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:53.760
great story that comes out of it. There's another interesting
1467
01:28:53.800 --> 01:28:55.960
one that Matt Cole tells about in his book and
1468
01:28:56.399 --> 01:29:01.760
Code over Country. But anyway, that was it was dubbed
1469
01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:07.439
a success from a leadership standpoint in internal to like
1470
01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:12.399
Socom channels, I don't think that everybody was in agreement
1471
01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:15.720
and how that mission unfolded, and so when the Blue
1472
01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:21.159
Water Yacht piece happened, they were literally handcuffed. So like,
1473
01:29:21.560 --> 01:29:24.479
nothing about that unfolded the way you would have imagined
1474
01:29:25.079 --> 01:29:30.319
the recovery of a pirated vessel. Yeah, like when when
1475
01:29:30.319 --> 01:29:31.199
do we move on that?
1476
01:29:31.279 --> 01:29:33.199
And broadly right right?
1477
01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:38.039
Yeah, like yeah, I mean nothing about it made sense.
1478
01:29:38.800 --> 01:29:41.119
And I was I was there from the moment that
1479
01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:44.760
the that the naval warships you know, initiated what they
1480
01:29:44.760 --> 01:29:47.279
would have called the stalk, and so they were just
1481
01:29:47.399 --> 01:29:50.359
over the horizon and then you know that vessel is
1482
01:29:50.399 --> 01:29:54.479
going back and further and further towards Somali waters, and
1483
01:29:54.520 --> 01:29:58.000
then you're up against the timeline of trying to, you know,
1484
01:29:58.319 --> 01:30:00.520
figure out how you're going to deal with this situation
1485
01:30:00.640 --> 01:30:03.439
before they get into waters that technically we shouldn't have
1486
01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:06.880
entered under the circumstances. I don't think it would have mattered,
1487
01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:09.319
you know, whose flag of waters they were in. We
1488
01:30:09.319 --> 01:30:10.760
were going to get it one way or the other.
1489
01:30:11.800 --> 01:30:15.000
But none, none of that ever unfolded the way you
1490
01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:19.279
would have imagined, you know, without getting into specific TTPs,
1491
01:30:19.359 --> 01:30:23.479
it just none of it made sense. Yeah, and then
1492
01:30:23.800 --> 01:30:26.840
in the end it ends up being broad daylight. Everybody dies,
1493
01:30:27.119 --> 01:30:29.399
So that is obviously not a success.
1494
01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:32.000
Yeah. When you say everybody dies. You're talking about the
1495
01:30:32.039 --> 01:30:33.399
pirates and the hostages.
1496
01:30:34.159 --> 01:30:38.880
Yeah, the pirates. The pirates executed the hostages, and it's
1497
01:30:38.920 --> 01:30:43.239
pretty obvious that when the assaulters got on board, Yeah,
1498
01:30:43.359 --> 01:30:44.279
nobody else lived.
1499
01:30:44.479 --> 01:30:50.520
Yeah. So you this brings us to twenty fourteen, where
1500
01:30:50.760 --> 01:30:56.840
you are at the three sixty first Yep, and the
1501
01:30:57.119 --> 01:31:04.359
and I believe wasn't it an article for the Secretary
1502
01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:06.279
of the Air Force for some reason. I believe it
1503
01:31:06.279 --> 01:31:09.720
was an article about about airmen, about the Air Force
1504
01:31:10.119 --> 01:31:14.720
not having won a, you know, a Medal of Honor
1505
01:31:15.079 --> 01:31:18.359
since Vietnam and only one was word then, and it's
1506
01:31:18.399 --> 01:31:20.039
sort of like, what does it take for an airman
1507
01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:23.760
to win the Medal of Honor? And the Secretary Air
1508
01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:27.079
Force like, that's a good question, and can we review
1509
01:31:27.800 --> 01:31:33.439
axe valor that our airmen and airwomen have performed, you know,
1510
01:31:33.520 --> 01:31:36.560
during the g WATT and see if there's anything that
1511
01:31:36.600 --> 01:31:38.720
would qualify. Yep.
1512
01:31:39.840 --> 01:31:43.520
That's the way I recall it. The it picked up
1513
01:31:43.560 --> 01:31:45.880
steam based on an Air Force Times article, and I
1514
01:31:46.159 --> 01:31:48.720
think that headline was what does it take to win
1515
01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:52.000
the Medal of Honor? Right, and and it was based
1516
01:31:52.039 --> 01:31:55.319
on a number of like Air Force crosses and things
1517
01:31:55.359 --> 01:31:57.600
like that that had specifically come out of the special
1518
01:31:57.600 --> 01:32:04.079
tactics community. That anyway, the service secretaries across all the
1519
01:32:04.119 --> 01:32:09.439
services ordered a review of top valor awards to make
1520
01:32:09.479 --> 01:32:12.800
sure that we hadn't left a stone unturned, if you will.
1521
01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:16.399
So when the Air Force did their initial look, they
1522
01:32:16.439 --> 01:32:19.399
had a shortlist, but at the top of their short
1523
01:32:19.399 --> 01:32:23.000
list was that of John Chapman and the story of
1524
01:32:23.479 --> 01:32:30.479
Roberts Ridge. So it worked in the Air Force's favor that,
1525
01:32:30.720 --> 01:32:33.800
you know, they still had that Terra server thanks to
1526
01:32:34.000 --> 01:32:38.479
Frank Daily. The funny story he told me was the
1527
01:32:38.479 --> 01:32:41.399
young analyst that was with him was like, hey, those
1528
01:32:41.439 --> 01:32:45.399
guys came and confiscated the videos. I just found all
1529
01:32:45.439 --> 01:32:47.520
these clips on the Terra server. Do you want me
1530
01:32:47.560 --> 01:32:49.840
to go ahead and delete those? He's like, no, no,
1531
01:32:50.199 --> 01:32:54.279
do not save that. And so if it hadn't been
1532
01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:58.000
for Frank, that stuff could have been lost and never recovered.
1533
01:32:59.239 --> 01:33:02.159
But I in the midst of all of this, once
1534
01:33:02.199 --> 01:33:05.720
we really picked up steam and we had already briefed
1535
01:33:05.720 --> 01:33:09.359
a Mako element. This is like September of sixteen, But
1536
01:33:09.439 --> 01:33:13.399
between then and eighteen, when the when the final you know,
1537
01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:15.680
like valor boards are being done at a four star
1538
01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:18.319
level and so forth. Before it goes to the sect death.
1539
01:33:19.279 --> 01:33:22.960
All of a sudden, an unmarked envelope shows up, and
1540
01:33:23.640 --> 01:33:28.840
inside the double wrapped package are the original classified, handwritten
1541
01:33:29.159 --> 01:33:34.239
marked CDs in Frank Daly's handwriting, because he's the one
1542
01:33:34.279 --> 01:33:38.199
who had had marked those original CDs from the original deployment.
1543
01:33:38.439 --> 01:33:39.039
Yeah, and so.
1544
01:33:39.560 --> 01:33:42.159
Wherever that stuff came from, I don't know if it
1545
01:33:42.479 --> 01:33:46.680
if it came from from DAMNAK or if it came
1546
01:33:46.720 --> 01:33:49.760
from a treasure trove down in Tampa out of SOACOM.
1547
01:33:50.239 --> 01:33:53.199
I don't know. It was not marked like when you
1548
01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:56.199
send something classified, their's specific rules and ways that you
1549
01:33:56.279 --> 01:33:59.039
package stuff. But there was no way to tell exactly
1550
01:33:59.079 --> 01:34:01.479
what the source of this was. But somebody wanted to
1551
01:34:01.479 --> 01:34:03.199
make sure that we got all of it, and they
1552
01:34:03.239 --> 01:34:07.039
sent it to us, and finally we had everything to
1553
01:34:07.159 --> 01:34:11.640
include the original gunship footage that showed our conversation on
1554
01:34:11.760 --> 01:34:15.760
board and the second strobe and him getting in. And
1555
01:34:15.800 --> 01:34:17.840
then oh, by the way, now you had all the
1556
01:34:17.880 --> 01:34:20.600
rest of the predator footage and all of the rest
1557
01:34:20.600 --> 01:34:24.520
of those clips that have been pieced together. So it
1558
01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.600
made for an air tight case, especially with all of
1559
01:34:27.600 --> 01:34:32.119
the imagery analysis that went into it. There's a guy
1560
01:34:32.600 --> 01:34:34.960
I don't talk about him because he's still working certain mission.
1561
01:34:35.840 --> 01:34:39.960
But when they went in they did the imagery analysis
1562
01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:43.359
on this. They mapped this thing down to the to
1563
01:34:43.439 --> 01:34:47.920
the nats ass like you could, you know, basically, put
1564
01:34:47.920 --> 01:34:50.520
a pin drop anywhere on that mountain. You could put
1565
01:34:50.520 --> 01:34:55.439
me in a laying, prone, kneeling, standing, tall, crouch, whatever,
1566
01:34:56.119 --> 01:34:58.039
and you could look around and give me three hundred
1567
01:34:58.039 --> 01:35:00.800
and sixty what my specific field of view was from
1568
01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:03.159
that point on the mountain. And they did that over
1569
01:35:03.199 --> 01:35:05.880
the entire area. And that's how we knew that there
1570
01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:09.920
were inconsistencies in some of the seals narrative on Hey,
1571
01:35:09.960 --> 01:35:12.319
I looked and saw the rise and fall of a laser.
1572
01:35:12.479 --> 01:35:15.159
I could see him. I verified, I crawled right over
1573
01:35:15.199 --> 01:35:15.960
the top of him.
1574
01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:16.199
Right.
1575
01:35:16.439 --> 01:35:20.119
Well, none of that was true. You know, there wasn't
1576
01:35:20.159 --> 01:35:23.239
a laser illuminated that. For that laser, it was a
1577
01:35:23.279 --> 01:35:25.720
momentary switch. It would have meant that John would have
1578
01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:29.760
had to have fallen incapacitated and something had direct pressure
1579
01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:33.239
on the switch, right, and then we would have seen
1580
01:35:33.279 --> 01:35:36.000
that with our sensors because I can see when their
1581
01:35:36.079 --> 01:35:39.279
lasers are active on their rifles. You use those as
1582
01:35:39.279 --> 01:35:41.880
marketing devices at times, and then you know they let
1583
01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:44.399
you know, like where they're pointing towards, so enemy on
1584
01:35:44.479 --> 01:35:49.760
the far side. Anyway, none of the stuff matched Air
1585
01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:55.520
Forces research is airtight. The crazy part was the Navy leadership.
1586
01:35:56.560 --> 01:35:59.319
You know, I'm kind of getting off script, you know,
1587
01:35:59.359 --> 01:36:01.319
as far as time and order of all of this.
1588
01:36:01.520 --> 01:36:06.399
But lo and behold, we briefed make the surviving members
1589
01:36:06.439 --> 01:36:12.560
of Maco three zero and what would have been DEV
1590
01:36:12.600 --> 01:36:17.760
Group's commander at the time, Captain Jeremy Williams. We briefed
1591
01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:23.159
them in a DC facility in September of sixteen, and
1592
01:36:23.199 --> 01:36:27.319
they had their intel guy, Commander Heartwell. I always get
1593
01:36:27.319 --> 01:36:31.920
the dude's name mixed up, but they had their intel
1594
01:36:31.960 --> 01:36:34.239
guy in the room as we're briefing all of them
1595
01:36:35.199 --> 01:36:40.039
our findings. And I say this because later on Heartwell
1596
01:36:40.119 --> 01:36:41.760
is the one who shows up at all the valor
1597
01:36:41.800 --> 01:36:46.399
boards with this other version of events. And this is
1598
01:36:46.439 --> 01:36:49.920
the Navy's version of events, not like what all the
1599
01:36:49.960 --> 01:36:54.600
research actually showed. And so they constantly say that John
1600
01:36:54.640 --> 01:36:57.479
died within the first three minutes, and they still stick
1601
01:36:57.560 --> 01:37:00.640
to that story today. So there's a full of people
1602
01:37:00.680 --> 01:37:03.800
working on their own documentary all funded by Seal money
1603
01:37:03.840 --> 01:37:08.039
whatever it is, They still stick to that slabs at
1604
01:37:08.159 --> 01:37:11.439
current accounts still says that John died right beside me
1605
01:37:11.560 --> 01:37:15.119
and the initial assault. Well, no, he didn't, you know one,
1606
01:37:15.159 --> 01:37:17.600
because you were never right beside him anyway, you know.
1607
01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:20.840
But nevertheless, John was the one who went and did
1608
01:37:20.840 --> 01:37:25.239
all that stuff. And then by the time he's killed,
1609
01:37:25.760 --> 01:37:30.199
it's after the element has broken contact. John is still
1610
01:37:30.279 --> 01:37:34.199
up and up around Bunker one and the QRF is inbound,
1611
01:37:34.600 --> 01:37:36.760
and he knows that if he doesn't put down suppressive
1612
01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:39.079
fire after being up there for an hour and twenty
1613
01:37:39.119 --> 01:37:42.479
minutes by himself, if he doesn't do that, then the
1614
01:37:42.520 --> 01:37:45.000
helicopter is going to suffer the same fate that they
1615
01:37:45.039 --> 01:37:47.279
did when they came in.
1616
01:37:47.920 --> 01:37:51.920
So at that point in twenty fourteen, when you first
1617
01:37:52.000 --> 01:37:54.880
get kind of picked for this, were you aware of
1618
01:37:55.560 --> 01:38:00.960
the extended fight that happened while you guys were grounded.
1619
01:38:03.640 --> 01:38:06.279
Yeah, you're talking about you're talking about the extended fight
1620
01:38:06.319 --> 01:38:07.520
on top of the mountain.
1621
01:38:07.479 --> 01:38:12.079
That John when he recovers and continues to fight. Were
1622
01:38:12.119 --> 01:38:15.439
you aware of any of that between like your involvement
1623
01:38:15.479 --> 01:38:17.800
with that operation and twenty fourteen.
1624
01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:23.079
I knew that Between between the time of the event
1625
01:38:23.119 --> 01:38:27.199
and me being brought onto to the research team, I
1626
01:38:27.279 --> 01:38:30.279
knew that there were three variations of the story. We
1627
01:38:30.319 --> 01:38:32.439
knew that there was somebody that continued to fight up
1628
01:38:32.439 --> 01:38:35.760
there after the Mako element had broken contact and before
1629
01:38:35.800 --> 01:38:39.600
the QRF arrived. That was Captain Self and his rangers, right.
1630
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:45.520
I knew that that the competing theories were Roberts and
1631
01:38:45.560 --> 01:38:50.319
then Chapman, and then red On Red. I didn't believe
1632
01:38:50.399 --> 01:38:54.800
the like we knew after the fact that the predator
1633
01:38:55.319 --> 01:38:58.800
could confirm based on the sawing motion that they could
1634
01:38:58.880 --> 01:39:03.199
see that they called. They would have told you right
1635
01:39:03.239 --> 01:39:05.000
then and there. If we had been in direct comms
1636
01:39:05.039 --> 01:39:06.720
with them, they would have told us right then and
1637
01:39:06.760 --> 01:39:10.560
there that that Roberts had been killed already, we didn't
1638
01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:14.680
know for sure. We weren't in comms with them. So
1639
01:39:15.079 --> 01:39:17.159
there were people out there that knew that Roberts had
1640
01:39:17.159 --> 01:39:20.119
been killed at that point, that he moved his body
1641
01:39:20.159 --> 01:39:23.199
and propped him up by the by the boulder there.
1642
01:39:23.520 --> 01:39:23.640
Right.
1643
01:39:25.479 --> 01:39:27.800
That only leaves Chappie and the and the red On
1644
01:39:27.880 --> 01:39:33.680
Red theory, and the fact that the fighting is literally
1645
01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:38.399
close proximity. I mean, like we're talking, we're talking you know,
1646
01:39:38.479 --> 01:39:43.439
inside of twenty meters in broad daylight for guys that
1647
01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:48.119
had had occupied that mountain for months, you don't shoot
1648
01:39:48.159 --> 01:39:50.039
each other in the face in broad daylight. There's no
1649
01:39:50.159 --> 01:39:53.159
red on red at that distance. I'm sorry, like that,
1650
01:39:53.159 --> 01:39:56.640
that absolutely does not hold water. Right, And there's a
1651
01:39:56.680 --> 01:40:00.720
funny story when all this stuff came to be the
1652
01:40:00.760 --> 01:40:05.079
final brief to Secretary of Defense Mattis that he asked,
1653
01:40:05.079 --> 01:40:07.560
what the view that, what's the prevailing view of others,
1654
01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:12.079
what's the leading competing theory. They explained that, and Mattis
1655
01:40:12.199 --> 01:40:13.479
is like, yeah, I don't buy.
1656
01:40:13.319 --> 01:40:17.000
It, Yeah, especially because there was actually hand to hand
1657
01:40:17.079 --> 01:40:17.880
at that point too.
1658
01:40:18.800 --> 01:40:21.760
Yeah, yeah, you can. You can see that in the footage,
1659
01:40:21.800 --> 01:40:26.680
like they're literally hand to hand, and Shappy prevails in
1660
01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:27.800
that engagement as well.
1661
01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:29.840
Yeah. Yeah.
1662
01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:32.359
And oh, by the way, he was so when we
1663
01:40:32.399 --> 01:40:36.239
say that he was incapacitated, the medical forensics showed that
1664
01:40:36.239 --> 01:40:39.920
that was a mortal wound with without attention, he would
1665
01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:45.319
have died from that wound. Right. Well, he's still He's still, Mike.
1666
01:40:45.720 --> 01:40:48.880
This is Rob's theory. But I think a one oh
1667
01:40:48.920 --> 01:40:51.199
five going off right next to your position is one
1668
01:40:51.239 --> 01:40:52.279
hell of an alarm clock.
1669
01:40:52.479 --> 01:40:52.680
Yeah.
1670
01:40:52.840 --> 01:40:55.319
I think if you're a seasoned, you know, combat controller,
1671
01:40:55.680 --> 01:40:57.760
the first thing you're going to do is illuminate a
1672
01:40:57.840 --> 01:40:58.960
strove and find cover.
1673
01:40:59.319 --> 01:41:00.000
And that happened.
1674
01:41:00.760 --> 01:41:04.000
That's what happened. That's what made sense. Like it doesn't
1675
01:41:04.039 --> 01:41:06.239
take a rocket scientist to put all this stuff together.
1676
01:41:06.600 --> 01:41:08.600
But oh, by the way, we had so many different
1677
01:41:08.680 --> 01:41:11.920
layers of evidence that that prove, Like there's no question
1678
01:41:12.000 --> 01:41:14.880
about John his actions or the status of his medal,
1679
01:41:15.399 --> 01:41:16.920
Like he earned his stuff.
1680
01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:17.199
Right.
1681
01:41:17.479 --> 01:41:21.439
If there's ever any question, it's why didn't they present too? Instead?
1682
01:41:21.479 --> 01:41:24.319
The Air Force literally chose to combine the elements and
1683
01:41:24.399 --> 01:41:28.159
make it one air tight case. Right, But but you
1684
01:41:28.159 --> 01:41:30.600
could you could split those and you could you could
1685
01:41:30.720 --> 01:41:34.119
provide a basis for two medals of honor for John Chapman.
1686
01:41:34.359 --> 01:41:39.119
Yeah. Yeah, so you know, out of curiosity because you
1687
01:41:39.159 --> 01:41:42.119
said there was a shortlist of error airmen who who
1688
01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:48.000
probably qualified. Do you think that the air forces that
1689
01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:50.199
the Air Force suffers from the fact that they are
1690
01:41:50.359 --> 01:41:53.840
their attachments and so often do not get the recognition
1691
01:41:53.920 --> 01:41:54.720
they deserve.
1692
01:41:57.239 --> 01:42:04.159
From firsthand experience. So I'm not a special tactics hereman, right,
1693
01:42:04.439 --> 01:42:08.359
But I'm a I'm a special intelligence capability that exists
1694
01:42:08.399 --> 01:42:12.880
within Air Force Special Operations. So my parent command is
1695
01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:17.720
not Air Force Special Operations Command. So when when our
1696
01:42:17.720 --> 01:42:20.439
guys go out and they operate, you got different chains
1697
01:42:20.479 --> 01:42:24.119
of command. So I've got my administrative chain. We're all,
1698
01:42:24.279 --> 01:42:27.119
you know, chopped to the same people operationally to execute
1699
01:42:27.119 --> 01:42:30.159
our missions. But when it comes time to decorate everybody,
1700
01:42:30.199 --> 01:42:34.119
there's there's different ways that that can happen. The operational
1701
01:42:34.199 --> 01:42:38.319
authority can do that from theater and submit and cover everybody,
1702
01:42:38.800 --> 01:42:40.640
or if it doesn't happen in time, then it comes
1703
01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:44.840
to light later. Now you're you're geographically separated, you're with
1704
01:42:44.920 --> 01:42:47.960
your administrative chain of command versus the operational one that
1705
01:42:48.000 --> 01:42:52.640
you were attached to. And yeah, I think that absolutely
1706
01:42:53.159 --> 01:42:53.960
plays a part in this.
1707
01:42:54.439 --> 01:43:01.279
Yeah, it's got to be frustrating. So so you see
1708
01:43:01.319 --> 01:43:05.880
this through through twenty fourteen, twenty sixteen, you guys put
1709
01:43:05.880 --> 01:43:09.000
it all together, the awards go up. I if you
1710
01:43:09.000 --> 01:43:12.720
weren't directly involved in the politics behind, like how the
1711
01:43:12.760 --> 01:43:15.479
decisions were made, then I don't want to get involved
1712
01:43:15.479 --> 01:43:17.800
in that. But like, at what point do you kind
1713
01:43:17.800 --> 01:43:20.039
of hand this off and you're done with it.
1714
01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:27.000
So the last significant piece for me, it's if you
1715
01:43:27.000 --> 01:43:30.720
think about the joint soft community. You know, with the
1716
01:43:30.760 --> 01:43:32.640
point that you had just made, you know, the Air
1717
01:43:32.680 --> 01:43:35.920
Force is often attached, right, like very seldom are we
1718
01:43:36.319 --> 01:43:40.800
like the primary unit that is executing a mission, unless
1719
01:43:40.800 --> 01:43:44.199
it's like an airborne platform. You know, that's just typically
1720
01:43:44.199 --> 01:43:47.880
not us. Our specialties are there to exist other soft
1721
01:43:47.880 --> 01:43:54.000
teams and elements. Right. So when we're going through the
1722
01:43:54.000 --> 01:43:58.399
the information process, the boarding process, that initial brief in
1723
01:43:58.479 --> 01:44:02.880
September of sixteen, I'm talking with what would have been
1724
01:44:02.920 --> 01:44:06.680
the twenty fourth sole commander, so he owned those respective
1725
01:44:06.680 --> 01:44:10.439
special tactics airmen. And as we go in, you know,
1726
01:44:10.600 --> 01:44:14.800
you've got the medical professional, You've got the imagery and analyst.
1727
01:44:15.239 --> 01:44:18.800
You've got Jay Hill, who was on an adjacent mountain
1728
01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:22.399
who heard Chappie come up on the radio ass three zero.
1729
01:44:22.479 --> 01:44:26.520
Charlie knew him, personally, recognizes radio etiquette, recognize his voice,
1730
01:44:27.119 --> 01:44:29.439
tried to talk to him but never had positive two
1731
01:44:29.439 --> 01:44:31.960
A coms. But he heard Chappy and it was after
1732
01:44:32.000 --> 01:44:34.840
the gunship had departed, but before the QRF had showed up.
1733
01:44:35.920 --> 01:44:41.840
So between that and me are articulating the eyewitness testimony
1734
01:44:41.880 --> 01:44:47.439
from our video that's literally playing showing Chappie's strobe illuminate
1735
01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:51.399
and crawl into the bunker and recounting the audio that
1736
01:44:51.880 --> 01:44:55.039
is showing Chris explaining to the folk, O, hey, I've
1737
01:44:55.039 --> 01:44:57.359
got a second strobe. This doesn't look like the others
1738
01:44:57.840 --> 01:45:01.720
and then they hear the rest of that mortar come in, like,
1739
01:45:02.359 --> 01:45:03.680
you can't refute.
1740
01:45:03.239 --> 01:45:03.800
That, right.
1741
01:45:04.199 --> 01:45:08.279
So, as in the spirit of having to play nice
1742
01:45:08.279 --> 01:45:11.600
with others in the joint soft community, the Special Tactics
1743
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:14.640
community just said, hey, here are the facts, and we're
1744
01:45:14.680 --> 01:45:17.600
gonna let the experts and the witnesses speak to these
1745
01:45:17.960 --> 01:45:21.920
to these points, so you know, if there's a preparation,
1746
01:45:22.279 --> 01:45:25.520
you know, going into it, it's like, hey, Rob, don't
1747
01:45:25.520 --> 01:45:27.720
hold back, Like when you get up there, I want
1748
01:45:27.800 --> 01:45:31.119
you to tell your side of the story and just
1749
01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:34.159
don't back down. Yeah, And I'm like, yeah, you know,
1750
01:45:34.279 --> 01:45:36.479
you don't have to tell me that, Colonel, Like I
1751
01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:39.560
got you. I knew exactly what was going on in
1752
01:45:39.600 --> 01:45:42.239
the situation that we were walking into because you knew
1753
01:45:42.239 --> 01:45:45.479
that there was pushback already. And literally in that meeting,
1754
01:45:45.840 --> 01:45:49.199
that's the moment where Slab changed his story because he
1755
01:45:49.319 --> 01:45:52.159
went from the rise and fall of a laser on
1756
01:45:52.199 --> 01:45:56.359
the chest, so literally it was. You remember the baseball
1757
01:45:56.439 --> 01:45:59.479
drug scenario where Rafael Paul Merrow says I did not
1758
01:45:59.720 --> 01:46:03.199
use performance in Andy, I did not use steroids Before Congress,
1759
01:46:04.239 --> 01:46:06.760
Slab has a moment like that and says, I crawled
1760
01:46:06.840 --> 01:46:10.239
right over the top of Jump right, And we're literally
1761
01:46:10.279 --> 01:46:13.359
showing in the video that has all of the breadcrumb
1762
01:46:13.439 --> 01:46:18.039
data showing like we've gone back and established the order
1763
01:46:18.039 --> 01:46:22.800
in which they exited. We have signed an IR signature
1764
01:46:22.880 --> 01:46:26.520
to each individual, and we can follow them chain of
1765
01:46:26.520 --> 01:46:30.720
custody greater than ninety percent chance of accuracy based on
1766
01:46:30.960 --> 01:46:34.560
the totality of all that information, And we can literally
1767
01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:38.800
see the area where Slab says I crawled right over him, like, no,
1768
01:46:38.880 --> 01:46:41.680
you didn't. You crawled over You crawled over Roberts right.
1769
01:46:41.920 --> 01:46:44.600
And you guys still say that y'all never saw Roberts right.
1770
01:46:44.680 --> 01:46:46.840
You were right on top of Roberts at the boulder.
1771
01:46:48.920 --> 01:46:51.399
At the boulder, he would have had to crawl over
1772
01:46:52.279 --> 01:46:54.279
Chappie up near the bunker.
1773
01:46:54.840 --> 01:46:58.439
Yes, yeah, yeah, And at the point, like you can
1774
01:46:58.479 --> 01:47:01.640
follow their egress, the only time that he would have
1775
01:47:01.680 --> 01:47:05.039
had eyes on Chappie being incapacitated was when they were
1776
01:47:05.079 --> 01:47:09.279
both engaged in bunker two, and Slab would have been
1777
01:47:09.560 --> 01:47:12.520
to the to the left of the tree, up against
1778
01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:16.279
the boulder boulders on his left facing up towards bunker two,
1779
01:47:16.840 --> 01:47:19.680
and Chappie's on the right of that tree. But we
1780
01:47:19.800 --> 01:47:24.199
also dropped breadcrumbs there and showed Slab his what his
1781
01:47:24.319 --> 01:47:26.600
field of view would have been, like we could literally
1782
01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:29.760
spin him around, like the entire area was scanned to
1783
01:47:30.199 --> 01:47:33.039
include under the tree, like you could see, this is
1784
01:47:33.039 --> 01:47:35.720
what the canopy was, this is where your terrain was,
1785
01:47:35.800 --> 01:47:38.279
this is what you could see. And if if Chappie
1786
01:47:38.319 --> 01:47:40.800
had fallen and he was laying out prone the way
1787
01:47:40.840 --> 01:47:42.800
you described, you literally can't see him from where you
1788
01:47:42.840 --> 01:47:48.239
said he could right right, And so anyway, his story
1789
01:47:48.359 --> 01:47:51.800
changed in that briefing at that moment said he crawled
1790
01:47:51.840 --> 01:47:54.000
right over the top of Chappie. The only person he
1791
01:47:54.039 --> 01:47:56.239
crawled over the top of was petty Officer Roberts.
1792
01:47:56.359 --> 01:48:01.640
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's weird because you know, there have
1793
01:48:01.680 --> 01:48:07.319
been a number of attempts to uh, you know, like
1794
01:48:07.439 --> 01:48:10.479
after after some of this came out, then then the
1795
01:48:10.960 --> 01:48:13.479
I think there was an argument that well, you know,
1796
01:48:13.760 --> 01:48:16.840
Chappie was out of his lane. He was there to
1797
01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:20.560
provide you know to bride to be the CCT. He
1798
01:48:20.600 --> 01:48:23.159
shouldn't have been assaulting, like, you know, there have been
1799
01:48:23.239 --> 01:48:24.840
so many attempts.
1800
01:48:24.359 --> 01:48:26.840
To sort of like, Yeah, there was also the theory
1801
01:48:26.920 --> 01:48:31.279
right that he saw Roberts and thought that was Chapman, right,
1802
01:48:32.760 --> 01:48:35.279
fog of war. I don't know what the truth is there,
1803
01:48:35.319 --> 01:48:39.800
but sure maybe, yeah.
1804
01:48:38.319 --> 01:48:40.800
I don't. I don't think a boat team would ever
1805
01:48:40.880 --> 01:48:46.520
misidentify one of their original sixth or the seventh combat
1806
01:48:46.560 --> 01:48:51.520
controller that was that was augmenting Like, I don't buy it.
1807
01:48:51.800 --> 01:48:57.600
Yeah, so that's part of your two and a half
1808
01:48:57.640 --> 01:49:02.800
years at the three sixty first and then then you
1809
01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:05.239
go to the R to work with the RC third
1810
01:49:05.439 --> 01:49:06.199
one thirty five.
1811
01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:11.800
Yeah, I I I ended up in my unit of assignment.
1812
01:49:11.800 --> 01:49:13.920
I got voted off the island as I had promoted.
1813
01:49:14.520 --> 01:49:16.880
You know, there were you know, limited number of positions,
1814
01:49:16.920 --> 01:49:20.079
they were already filled. I drew the straw to go
1815
01:49:20.159 --> 01:49:23.359
out to what turned out to be the the best
1816
01:49:23.359 --> 01:49:29.119
assignment of my career. I love the mission that we
1817
01:49:29.119 --> 01:49:31.920
were just talking about, but as far as best Overhall
1818
01:49:31.960 --> 01:49:34.479
assignment for me and my family, h going out to
1819
01:49:34.560 --> 01:49:37.479
Okinawa and being the senior enlisted leader for the three
1820
01:49:37.560 --> 01:49:41.680
ninetieth Intelligence Squadron. That was freaking cool. And the reason
1821
01:49:41.840 --> 01:49:45.760
is is that that's the birthplace of Airborne I s R.
1822
01:49:46.199 --> 01:49:49.359
From a modern standpoint. Now, I got a former commander
1823
01:49:49.640 --> 01:49:55.319
who's a historian bona fide, he's a professor. He would
1824
01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:57.279
tell you that the birthplace of Airborne I s R
1825
01:49:57.560 --> 01:50:03.000
Started in the European theater. There's he's he's absolutely true.
1826
01:50:03.039 --> 01:50:04.640
I'm not going to argue with him. But as far
1827
01:50:04.680 --> 01:50:07.640
as the Air Force specific units that we support with
1828
01:50:07.680 --> 01:50:11.239
the RC one thirty five, there's a mission that used
1829
01:50:11.279 --> 01:50:14.359
to be the Combat Apple. That's what they came and
1830
01:50:14.439 --> 01:50:16.960
grew into the RC one thirty five that we know today.
1831
01:50:17.600 --> 01:50:20.479
And it was stood up by a gentleman by the
1832
01:50:20.560 --> 01:50:24.479
name of Doyle Larson. Most of the folks in the
1833
01:50:24.680 --> 01:50:27.800
in the ISR community like know who this is from
1834
01:50:27.840 --> 01:50:31.000
an Air Force perspective. Our buildings named after him. I
1835
01:50:31.039 --> 01:50:33.399
got to go out there, was there during that unit's
1836
01:50:33.399 --> 01:50:36.520
fiftieth anniversary. I know that doesn't seem like much. We
1837
01:50:36.600 --> 01:50:39.199
just celebrated the Army as two hundred and fiftieth, but hey,
1838
01:50:39.359 --> 01:50:40.840
you know, give us a break. The Air Force is
1839
01:50:40.840 --> 01:50:44.520
still young. But our squadron had turned fifty. Out there,
1840
01:50:45.520 --> 01:50:47.479
I got a chance to be part of that unit
1841
01:50:48.760 --> 01:50:51.840
while we were doing what we call the pivot to
1842
01:50:51.880 --> 01:50:56.479
the Pacific, so iron was flowing from the Central you know,
1843
01:50:56.600 --> 01:50:59.800
theaters over the Middle East away from Central Command back
1844
01:51:00.079 --> 01:51:03.720
or to what is now Indo pe com Our unit.
1845
01:51:04.279 --> 01:51:08.760
They covered everything from the summit in Singapore, you know
1846
01:51:09.239 --> 01:51:13.119
where Trump met with the leader in North Korea, to
1847
01:51:14.279 --> 01:51:18.760
the Olympics and then help we uh, we would help
1848
01:51:19.119 --> 01:51:23.279
take care of the South China Sea, you know, with
1849
01:51:22.680 --> 01:51:28.119
the Chinese like to to expand their their their maritime
1850
01:51:28.199 --> 01:51:32.880
claims a little bit further than what it is internationally recognized.
1851
01:51:34.479 --> 01:51:39.479
That's fascinating. Uh. And then from there you became the
1852
01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:44.159
i G Superintendent for the sixteenth Air Force. Yes, and
1853
01:51:44.199 --> 01:51:46.239
can you tell us about that? So now you're like
1854
01:51:46.279 --> 01:51:46.960
a big boss.
1855
01:51:48.279 --> 01:51:52.479
Yeah, yeah, kind of kind of, I guess always the
1856
01:51:52.560 --> 01:51:56.279
number two, you know, so I as a senior enlisted leader,
1857
01:51:56.319 --> 01:52:01.119
you know, we're advising the those commanders. If you if
1858
01:52:01.159 --> 01:52:03.720
you look back at some of my some of my
1859
01:52:03.840 --> 01:52:07.880
past experiences, you know from a just from the service,
1860
01:52:08.479 --> 01:52:12.159
it was nice, a nice kind of twilight assignment there
1861
01:52:12.680 --> 01:52:15.880
as the IG superintendent because your your whole goal is
1862
01:52:15.920 --> 01:52:19.359
to speak truth to power, hold people accountable, you know,
1863
01:52:19.479 --> 01:52:22.039
take care of airmen that are out executing mission and
1864
01:52:22.399 --> 01:52:26.439
so on. So that was a pretty sweet moment to
1865
01:52:26.439 --> 01:52:29.319
be able to do that at the end. And then
1866
01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:34.119
you know, to have had this is around the time period,
1867
01:52:34.199 --> 01:52:40.319
you know, some eighteen is when August of eighteen is
1868
01:52:40.319 --> 01:52:43.359
when Chapman has awarded his Medal of Honor. I got
1869
01:52:43.359 --> 01:52:47.159
a chance to attend that at the White House as
1870
01:52:47.159 --> 01:52:50.520
a as a guest and member of the research team.
1871
01:52:51.199 --> 01:52:55.640
Then I had reassigned there at the end of eighteen
1872
01:52:56.199 --> 01:52:59.479
to sixteenth Air Force, so I was you know, home
1873
01:52:59.600 --> 01:53:04.520
was and Antonio and then yeah, towards the end of
1874
01:53:04.560 --> 01:53:07.359
the IG tour, you know, you do your best to
1875
01:53:08.800 --> 01:53:12.439
you know, speak up for airman, hold people accountable when
1876
01:53:12.760 --> 01:53:16.159
when necessary, and just make sure that mission has executed
1877
01:53:16.159 --> 01:53:16.920
the way it should be.
1878
01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:20.960
Was there, you know, was there any heartache on the
1879
01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:25.319
part of like the research team. Obviously there are stories
1880
01:53:25.359 --> 01:53:27.760
about the back the backroom deals that had to be
1881
01:53:27.840 --> 01:53:30.800
made with the Navy in terms of you know, those
1882
01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:34.159
are stories, but what we do know is that Slevinsky
1883
01:53:34.439 --> 01:53:38.399
was awarded a Medal of Honor and he was awarded
1884
01:53:38.399 --> 01:53:41.439
the Medal of Honor, not at the same time as Chapman.
1885
01:53:41.520 --> 01:53:44.600
They made sure that his was awarded like prior to.
1886
01:53:46.640 --> 01:53:52.159
So. Yeah, So back up to September of sixteen, I
1887
01:53:52.159 --> 01:53:55.319
told you we brief We briefed the surviving members, Captain
1888
01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:59.920
Jeremy Williams, and Mako. So all the surviving members and
1889
01:54:00.039 --> 01:54:02.760
Maker through zero either present in the room, three of
1890
01:54:02.760 --> 01:54:05.319
them in the room and one on a telecon and
1891
01:54:05.319 --> 01:54:09.800
it's us presenting information to them, and then the only
1892
01:54:09.840 --> 01:54:14.000
other extra person in the room is Commander Hartwell. At
1893
01:54:14.000 --> 01:54:16.960
the end of that meeting, we're getting ready to shuffle
1894
01:54:17.000 --> 01:54:21.680
out the door and Jeremy Williams is sitting right next
1895
01:54:21.680 --> 01:54:24.720
to He's standing next to Slab close to the exit.
1896
01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:28.399
He just looks over at Slily's like, huh, maybe we
1897
01:54:28.439 --> 01:54:33.199
should look at upgrading yours. This is September of sixteen.
1898
01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:39.279
By December of sixteen, Secretary of the Navy Ray Mavis
1899
01:54:39.319 --> 01:54:43.239
makes a trip out to dam Neck. Britt Slavinski in
1900
01:54:43.279 --> 01:54:46.199
his own words in an interview, I've got clips. Hopefully
1901
01:54:46.239 --> 01:54:48.319
I'll get this to D and y'all can get these uploaded.
1902
01:54:48.359 --> 01:54:52.960
But Britt describes the first time that he was informed
1903
01:54:53.159 --> 01:54:56.439
that he was going to be receiving the Medal of Honor,
1904
01:54:56.920 --> 01:55:00.800
and that's when the second MAV shows up in September
1905
01:55:00.920 --> 01:55:04.840
or December of sixteen and makes the announcement to their
1906
01:55:04.880 --> 01:55:09.920
home unit at Damn Neck and BRIT's not even like
1907
01:55:09.960 --> 01:55:11.439
he's out of the service at this point. He was
1908
01:55:11.479 --> 01:55:14.079
brought back as a guest under the rules of somebody
1909
01:55:14.079 --> 01:55:17.239
else's award. And then oh, by the way, the secon
1910
01:55:17.279 --> 01:55:21.560
NAB makes that announcement, so you don't go from September
1911
01:55:21.600 --> 01:55:25.680
of sixteen, Captain Jeremy Williams saying maybe we should look
1912
01:55:25.680 --> 01:55:31.760
it upgrading yours to sect navs showing up within ninety days, right, Like,
1913
01:55:32.119 --> 01:55:35.640
medals of honor do not happen that fast, especially ones
1914
01:55:35.640 --> 01:55:38.359
that are from events that are you know, what would
1915
01:55:38.359 --> 01:55:41.560
that have been sixteen? Go back to two that would
1916
01:55:41.560 --> 01:55:42.640
have been fourteen years old.
1917
01:55:42.840 --> 01:55:49.520
Yeah, and it's not as if new information came out,
1918
01:55:50.159 --> 01:55:53.920
favorite Slavinski, Were you an intel guy?
1919
01:55:56.880 --> 01:55:59.840
I mean that as a compliment, yeah, yeah, yeah, no no,
1920
01:56:00.399 --> 01:56:05.079
so yeah, no, there's no new information for slab, so
1921
01:56:05.520 --> 01:56:10.479
like everybody knew, all right, So back up to the
1922
01:56:10.479 --> 01:56:14.840
the original decorations that were handed out for Britt Slovinski
1923
01:56:14.960 --> 01:56:18.520
and John Chapman where their respective Service crosses. Slav was
1924
01:56:18.560 --> 01:56:23.039
awarded the Navy Cross, Chappe was awarded the Air Force Cross.
1925
01:56:23.560 --> 01:56:27.279
And that was for them being credited to storming and
1926
01:56:27.319 --> 01:56:31.800
eliminating Bunker one, saving the team. Right, we'll go back
1927
01:56:31.800 --> 01:56:35.520
and look at the footage. Tell me who eliminated Bunker one?
1928
01:56:35.800 --> 01:56:37.479
Right, right?
1929
01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:41.520
And wasn't Britt Slevinski? Was he present? Was he? Was
1930
01:56:41.520 --> 01:56:43.640
he part of all of this? As of freaking lutely,
1931
01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:47.319
I won't take anything from the dude, except for when
1932
01:56:47.359 --> 01:56:49.520
you want to go down the road of stolen valor
1933
01:56:49.720 --> 01:56:54.319
and Navy false narratives. Right, that's that's crap. And then
1934
01:56:54.479 --> 01:56:58.319
now you're tarnishing the legacy of John Chapman. Now it's
1935
01:56:58.319 --> 01:57:01.159
cemented in the history books, right, Chappy has his Medal
1936
01:57:01.159 --> 01:57:03.439
of Honor, and it is what it is. But then
1937
01:57:03.560 --> 01:57:07.039
fast forward to after all of this and the you know,
1938
01:57:07.199 --> 01:57:10.439
the museum, and then they just take a big dump
1939
01:57:10.520 --> 01:57:11.479
all over the guy again.
1940
01:57:11.680 --> 01:57:14.279
Well, it's it's the Navy Seal Museum sponsored by the
1941
01:57:14.279 --> 01:57:22.000
Medal of Honor, tadda, you know. So, yeah, and then
1942
01:57:22.079 --> 01:57:26.880
for you you wrap up at Joint Force Joint Forest
1943
01:57:26.880 --> 01:57:29.319
Headquarters cyber right.
1944
01:57:29.399 --> 01:57:34.960
Yeah, this we were downsizing the Inspector General Team. I
1945
01:57:35.039 --> 01:57:37.479
still had a little bit of time left before I
1946
01:57:37.640 --> 01:57:40.600
was before I was actually retiring, and so from my
1947
01:57:40.680 --> 01:57:43.840
last twelve months I served as a senior enlisted leader
1948
01:57:43.960 --> 01:57:49.119
for for a cyber element that was was there in Texas.
1949
01:57:50.079 --> 01:57:52.359
There's a number of them on the Joint Force Headquarters side.
1950
01:57:52.720 --> 01:57:57.279
They aligned to US cybercom UH and then they execute
1951
01:57:57.359 --> 01:58:02.079
various various mission based on their geographic alignment, depending on
1952
01:58:02.560 --> 01:58:05.319
who's who's in the lead. Like the Army runs one,
1953
01:58:05.399 --> 01:58:07.319
the Navy runs one, the Air Force runs one.
1954
01:58:07.960 --> 01:58:11.159
Fantastic and so what about now, like, what are you
1955
01:58:11.239 --> 01:58:13.640
doing post Air Force career?
1956
01:58:15.000 --> 01:58:19.239
So I retired from active duty. I didn't I didn't
1957
01:58:19.279 --> 01:58:22.159
go too far from the herd. You know we I
1958
01:58:22.199 --> 01:58:25.119
think we kind of like to stay with our tribe.
1959
01:58:25.439 --> 01:58:28.079
I got. I got a wife who's who's not very
1960
01:58:28.199 --> 01:58:31.760
risk averse. My goal was to to not be a
1961
01:58:31.800 --> 01:58:34.199
government mule. I wanted to move as far away from
1962
01:58:34.600 --> 01:58:38.600
from the actual service. I wanted to go hit industry
1963
01:58:38.680 --> 01:58:40.640
and you know, see where I could make my mark
1964
01:58:41.119 --> 01:58:45.079
as a civilian. Truly, she was like no, no, no, no, no,
1965
01:58:45.119 --> 01:58:48.439
that that's cutthroat. I'm like, yeah, that's fine with me.
1966
01:58:48.520 --> 01:58:49.279
I'm going to survive.
1967
01:58:50.239 --> 01:58:54.319
But but anyway, it becomes a family decision at that point,
1968
01:58:54.399 --> 01:58:57.239
so I stayed close by. I'm still working in the
1969
01:58:57.239 --> 01:59:00.560
intelligence community as a as a government civilian. Now, I
1970
01:59:00.960 --> 01:59:05.079
did a transition moment as a as a contractor, as
1971
01:59:05.399 --> 01:59:09.199
as many people you know do after their active duty career,
1972
01:59:10.159 --> 01:59:13.960
and so I work on strategic plans for an intel directorate,
1973
01:59:14.000 --> 01:59:17.079
for a training command in the Air Force, and life
1974
01:59:17.159 --> 01:59:19.840
is good, man. I'm I'm surrounded by good people, have
1975
01:59:19.920 --> 01:59:22.920
a good culture, a good team. The mission near as
1976
01:59:22.920 --> 01:59:25.600
sexy is what it used to be, sure, But but
1977
01:59:26.000 --> 01:59:29.319
you're around good people, so that I can deal with.
1978
01:59:29.640 --> 01:59:35.279
That's awesome. Did we leave anything out? Do we working people?
1979
01:59:35.359 --> 01:59:37.479
Are you on social media or anything like that? Where
1980
01:59:37.479 --> 01:59:40.039
can people find you if they look for you?
1981
01:59:40.079 --> 01:59:44.000
So I'm not a I'm not a super super public guy.
1982
01:59:44.279 --> 01:59:47.880
Uh yeah, I've got a persona out there. But but
1983
01:59:47.920 --> 01:59:51.159
there's also a handful of folks that aren't necessarily my
1984
01:59:51.199 --> 01:59:55.039
biggest fans that that are busy pushing what I call
1985
01:59:55.159 --> 01:59:59.119
the seal false narratives. So I don't get I don't
1986
01:59:59.119 --> 02:00:01.800
get too far into that. Where where you will find
1987
02:00:01.800 --> 02:00:07.039
me is uh with individuals like y'all that that have
1988
02:00:07.600 --> 02:00:10.880
the ability to use your platform for for those of
1989
02:00:10.960 --> 02:00:14.359
us interested in speaking truth to power, And for that
1990
02:00:14.560 --> 02:00:17.000
I say thank you for the bottom of my heart.
1991
02:00:18.079 --> 02:00:21.239
What uh. I'm sure many people have have mentioned this
1992
02:00:21.319 --> 02:00:23.119
to you on the side, but I'd like to say
1993
02:00:23.119 --> 02:00:31.600
it here. The initial the initial damn it. I just
1994
02:00:31.960 --> 02:00:37.640
I just had a senior moment when we what the
1995
02:00:37.680 --> 02:00:41.720
hell do you call that thing that people sign like
1996
02:00:41.760 --> 02:00:45.760
an AFFI, David, the one the one that you started, Dave.
1997
02:00:46.399 --> 02:00:48.359
The petitions, the petition.
1998
02:00:48.119 --> 02:00:54.119
Petition, Yeah, yeah, damn okay, So the petition that you
1999
02:00:54.239 --> 02:01:00.640
signed like that kickstarted a lot. It wasn't until between
2000
02:01:00.680 --> 02:01:04.479
that and Laurie's Laurie's actual post as to what was
2001
02:01:04.520 --> 02:01:07.359
going on at the Medal of Honor Museum. That's what
2002
02:01:07.640 --> 02:01:10.760
smoked me out on this, you know. Like, so I
2003
02:01:10.800 --> 02:01:13.720
didn't like, I thought this was all water under the bridge.
2004
02:01:13.880 --> 02:01:17.159
Slab got his metal, Chapman got his, and I thought
2005
02:01:17.359 --> 02:01:21.039
we had all moved on. I didn't realize that Slab
2006
02:01:21.079 --> 02:01:25.880
had landed like keyboard positions and that he was involved
2007
02:01:26.279 --> 02:01:28.239
such in such a high manner with the Medal of
2008
02:01:28.279 --> 02:01:32.000
Honor Museum, not to mention the Congressional Medal of Honor Society.
2009
02:01:33.399 --> 02:01:36.079
And then then I start looking based off of what
2010
02:01:36.159 --> 02:01:39.199
Laurie's post was, and I was like, son of a gun,
2011
02:01:39.720 --> 02:01:43.640
I could I was. I could not believe that they
2012
02:01:43.640 --> 02:01:46.479
were literally going out there and sticking to the false
2013
02:01:46.560 --> 02:01:50.399
narrative that they used to try to subvert Chapman's metal
2014
02:01:50.479 --> 02:01:51.479
upgrade to begin with.
2015
02:01:51.760 --> 02:01:52.000
Yeah.
2016
02:01:52.399 --> 02:01:55.960
Yeah, that's the point where it's like, all right, well,
2017
02:01:57.319 --> 02:02:00.680
I'm not naive. I understand where people have power and
2018
02:02:00.720 --> 02:02:04.000
people have connection and so forth, and if they're not
2019
02:02:04.000 --> 02:02:07.479
going to be held accountable, all right, that's on somebody else.
2020
02:02:07.520 --> 02:02:10.119
But I'll tell you this, they won't get away with it,
2021
02:02:10.600 --> 02:02:12.960
so I will do my best to make sure that
2022
02:02:13.000 --> 02:02:16.760
the truth is known and understood. Chapman is a bona
2023
02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:21.720
fide friggin' hero that is an amazing one, and I
2024
02:02:21.720 --> 02:02:26.079
can't wait until that story becomes more broadly understood. You know,
2025
02:02:26.159 --> 02:02:30.479
there are efforts underway to do all of that, but
2026
02:02:31.239 --> 02:02:33.119
you just like you have to take with a grain
2027
02:02:33.159 --> 02:02:36.880
of salt. And I hate to say this because it
2028
02:02:37.279 --> 02:02:40.079
then tarnishes the rest of the good seals that are
2029
02:02:40.119 --> 02:02:43.720
out there. But if you hear a story about Seals
2030
02:02:43.760 --> 02:02:47.279
and heroics, you might want to consider that like a
2031
02:02:47.319 --> 02:02:50.920
barroom legend, you know, you know those stories where you
2032
02:02:51.000 --> 02:02:54.199
just have to have ten percent truth and then it
2033
02:02:54.239 --> 02:02:57.720
makes for a great story. There's too many of those
2034
02:02:57.720 --> 02:03:00.439
that are out there, especially of late and all of
2035
02:03:00.479 --> 02:03:05.279
that stuff ties right back to the specific personality that
2036
02:03:05.560 --> 02:03:10.079
was Tim Zamanski And then you can follow the lineage
2037
02:03:10.159 --> 02:03:13.640
down with key leaders. Wyman Howard is one of them.
2038
02:03:13.960 --> 02:03:18.359
He's the guy that they called Hatchetman, documented in Matt
2039
02:03:18.399 --> 02:03:21.319
Cole's book. You know, I don't have to go any further,
2040
02:03:21.520 --> 02:03:24.920
but how he connects to the Chapman Medal of Honor upgrade.
2041
02:03:25.760 --> 02:03:28.479
When the Seals went down the road of their false narrative,
2042
02:03:28.920 --> 02:03:32.359
they went and recreated their own videos. Well, guess where
2043
02:03:32.399 --> 02:03:36.680
Wyman Howard was assigned while that was going on. He
2044
02:03:36.880 --> 02:03:42.239
was the DOO of the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. So
2045
02:03:42.760 --> 02:03:45.039
if you want to recreate footage, if you want to
2046
02:03:45.079 --> 02:03:50.359
recreate anything like the same people that mapped that mountaintop
2047
02:03:50.479 --> 02:03:52.520
and did everything that I was telling you that we
2048
02:03:52.600 --> 02:03:58.079
could do. He was the DOO, a general officer at
2049
02:03:57.720 --> 02:04:03.079
that premier agency. All while this was going on with
2050
02:04:03.159 --> 02:04:05.760
the Medal of Honor upgrade and the board and the
2051
02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:08.239
seal false narrative and the subversion efforts.
2052
02:04:09.279 --> 02:04:13.119
Is that interesting guy? You know, I've had like people
2053
02:04:13.159 --> 02:04:15.239
tell me in the past that like he was totally
2054
02:04:15.239 --> 02:04:18.520
different than like the General mccrystals and the Scottie Millers,
2055
02:04:18.560 --> 02:04:21.720
you know, the like calm, cool, collected kind of personality
2056
02:04:22.359 --> 02:04:25.560
that Wineman was like he would like seethe, Like there's
2057
02:04:25.640 --> 02:04:29.199
like anger vibrating off of this dude.
2058
02:04:30.119 --> 02:04:34.199
So my experience when I met him in person, like
2059
02:04:34.439 --> 02:04:38.199
I didn't meet him face to face, but that same deployment,
2060
02:04:39.239 --> 02:04:42.640
it's the twenty eleven time period when the Bluewater yacht
2061
02:04:42.640 --> 02:04:46.840
deal goes down. He comes and pays us a visit
2062
02:04:47.439 --> 02:04:50.960
based on you know, at the time he's the dev
2063
02:04:51.000 --> 02:04:55.600
group commander and they were in charge of that particular AO.
2064
02:04:56.680 --> 02:04:58.680
He comes in and gives us a who yah speech
2065
02:04:59.079 --> 02:05:01.800
and a hangar. Well, he showed up on one of
2066
02:05:01.840 --> 02:05:04.680
the one of the slick jets. They step off and
2067
02:05:05.079 --> 02:05:07.439
what we all call the smooths. You know, he's got
2068
02:05:07.439 --> 02:05:11.000
his suit on but but open collar, no tie. He
2069
02:05:11.199 --> 02:05:13.840
strutted into that damn hangar. You would have thought it
2070
02:05:13.880 --> 02:05:19.119
was Tom Brady like just swagger and I don't like
2071
02:05:19.399 --> 02:05:22.680
not a I don't think that he just exuded arrogance.
2072
02:05:22.720 --> 02:05:25.680
I'm not saying that, but just like you were looking
2073
02:05:25.720 --> 02:05:28.399
at a dude that you knew was a significant individual
2074
02:05:28.520 --> 02:05:31.960
and he just had that executive presence about him, that
2075
02:05:31.960 --> 02:05:35.119
that was what my personal experience, you know, being at
2076
02:05:35.239 --> 02:05:38.680
least in the same hangar within you know, throwing distance
2077
02:05:38.720 --> 02:05:42.520
of of the guy. But but it wasn't until I,
2078
02:05:42.560 --> 02:05:48.000
like I knew, I know folks that work with him directly. Yeah,
2079
02:05:48.359 --> 02:05:50.279
I've heard good stories, I've read bad.
2080
02:05:51.199 --> 02:05:51.399
You know.
2081
02:05:52.199 --> 02:05:53.840
I don't think that's for me to judge. But what
2082
02:05:53.920 --> 02:05:56.319
I would do is I will I will leave you
2083
02:05:56.359 --> 02:05:59.439
with the connective tissue that when they created their false
2084
02:05:59.560 --> 02:06:05.600
narrative against John Chapman, surviving that initial mortal wound, Wyman
2085
02:06:05.640 --> 02:06:09.159
Howard was the GEO, the director of Operations at the
2086
02:06:09.199 --> 02:06:14.119
National GEO Special Intelligence Agency. At that same time, Jeremy
2087
02:06:14.119 --> 02:06:17.520
Williams had cleaned up to the DEV Group position. So
2088
02:06:17.560 --> 02:06:20.279
he's the CEO at DEV Group and the Commander of
2089
02:06:20.359 --> 02:06:24.199
Naval Special Warfare is Tim Zemanski. So how do you
2090
02:06:24.239 --> 02:06:27.479
go from slab medal of honor from September of sixteen
2091
02:06:27.880 --> 02:06:30.680
to SECT now making the announcement in December of sixteen,
2092
02:06:31.239 --> 02:06:33.680
because Zemansky was sitting on that and had it ready
2093
02:06:34.000 --> 02:06:38.319
ready to go with no new information, nothing to expand
2094
02:06:38.399 --> 02:06:45.399
beyond the basis of his Navy cross unless we add
2095
02:06:45.439 --> 02:06:49.039
in that, Hey, I rescued the aircrew. Hey, I was
2096
02:06:49.720 --> 02:06:53.399
in combat for fourteen hours. Well, like, dude, they were
2097
02:06:53.399 --> 02:06:56.159
in combat for like ten minutes and they broke contact
2098
02:06:56.600 --> 02:06:59.560
and they were they weren't engaged, you know, like after
2099
02:06:59.560 --> 02:07:03.039
they broke contact. Now did he have wounded? Like? Was
2100
02:07:03.079 --> 02:07:07.359
there a huge pray initially absolutely won't take anything away
2101
02:07:07.399 --> 02:07:10.000
from it, but look at the basis of his of
2102
02:07:10.039 --> 02:07:12.119
his medal of Honor, and I can poke holes in
2103
02:07:12.159 --> 02:07:12.840
it left and right.
2104
02:07:13.079 --> 02:07:15.920
Well be he They basically took a lot of what
2105
02:07:16.079 --> 02:07:18.760
was on Chapman's and just transferred it over basically a
2106
02:07:18.760 --> 02:07:21.199
cop and copy and paste.
2107
02:07:21.439 --> 02:07:24.960
So yeah, so there's a there's a nugget of information
2108
02:07:25.039 --> 02:07:30.079
on that one. And I'll speak cryptically about this, but
2109
02:07:30.680 --> 02:07:33.560
when I say that Jeremy Williams is a CD character,
2110
02:07:34.439 --> 02:07:37.760
Like he's a CD character, This dude is a He's
2111
02:07:37.800 --> 02:07:41.399
a general officer right now competing for a potential three
2112
02:07:41.439 --> 02:07:44.800
star position. If this man goes into a three star
2113
02:07:44.920 --> 02:07:50.640
position as a seal Naval special warfare officer, that means
2114
02:07:50.640 --> 02:07:53.319
that he's going to be commanding in a joint environment.
2115
02:07:53.800 --> 02:07:57.199
All right, How does a guy go into a three
2116
02:07:57.239 --> 02:08:02.119
star joint command his position, whether it's command or a
2117
02:08:02.159 --> 02:08:05.119
senior staff position that's at a three star level. How
2118
02:08:05.159 --> 02:08:07.920
do you do that in a joint environment knowing full
2119
02:08:07.960 --> 02:08:11.640
well that you subverted an Air Force teammates medal of
2120
02:08:11.640 --> 02:08:16.039
honor upgrade based on a bullshit false narrative. And so,
2121
02:08:17.319 --> 02:08:21.399
to take this further, the cryptic message is when I
2122
02:08:21.479 --> 02:08:23.479
say that the Navy had every bit of the Air
2123
02:08:23.520 --> 02:08:26.800
Force information, it wasn't just because the Air Force was
2124
02:08:26.840 --> 02:08:30.079
willing to share it with them. All right, there was
2125
02:08:30.119 --> 02:08:36.680
a moment when Jeremy Williams deliberately took the information right
2126
02:08:37.640 --> 02:08:40.640
and I just I'll leave it at that. But there
2127
02:08:40.640 --> 02:08:44.039
are specific people that know exactly what happened, and that
2128
02:08:44.159 --> 02:08:48.119
man continues to go unanswered because he was in some
2129
02:08:48.199 --> 02:08:53.279
significant places also in twenty eleven. So he's got a
2130
02:08:53.319 --> 02:08:55.800
permanent get out of jail free card for some of
2131
02:08:55.880 --> 02:09:02.479
his own command and his team's you know actions, it's bullshit.
2132
02:09:02.880 --> 02:09:07.960
People need to hold these guys accountable and and yeah,
2133
02:09:08.159 --> 02:09:10.399
I'm not in a position to change it, but I
2134
02:09:10.439 --> 02:09:11.880
am in a position to speak out.
2135
02:09:13.399 --> 02:09:16.640
Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on and sharing
2136
02:09:16.680 --> 02:09:19.359
this first hand. Yeah, do we got questions to be
2137
02:09:21.560 --> 02:09:22.119
one moment.
2138
02:09:27.840 --> 02:09:31.199
I appreciate the respect and uh and description regarding your
2139
02:09:31.199 --> 02:09:34.239
teammate from Boston. Can you share a story regarding this
2140
02:09:34.359 --> 02:09:36.720
Beantown badass Thanks for the show, guys.
2141
02:09:41.640 --> 02:09:43.159
That's kind of the Ob himself.
2142
02:09:45.920 --> 02:09:47.920
That's from Matt Matt Gavin.
2143
02:09:50.319 --> 02:10:00.039
Okay, all right, yeah, from Ob being badass man. I
2144
02:10:00.039 --> 02:10:03.039
I never had to see him fight, but I would
2145
02:10:03.079 --> 02:10:05.960
tell you that the Boston accent was enough to make
2146
02:10:06.000 --> 02:10:12.119
anybody think twice.
2147
02:10:12.359 --> 02:10:13.920
One more from Corbin.
2148
02:10:14.800 --> 02:10:17.279
Over the course of your career, would you say technology
2149
02:10:17.319 --> 02:10:20.720
has helped to increase the effectiveness of communication between the
2150
02:10:20.760 --> 02:10:24.000
task asset in the stack and the eyes on the
2151
02:10:24.039 --> 02:10:27.840
ground tasking set asset or is it just mixed a
2152
02:10:27.920 --> 02:10:31.439
mixed bag dependent on the people involved in the event.
2153
02:10:33.560 --> 02:10:41.319
Yes, on all phases, so inherently, I'm I'm a you know,
2154
02:10:41.520 --> 02:10:45.279
I'm a positive thinker. I'd like to say yes, it improves,
2155
02:10:45.560 --> 02:10:47.800
but you got to take all that with a grain
2156
02:10:47.840 --> 02:10:53.720
of salt. There's a the Malani report regarding Robert's ridge
2157
02:10:54.039 --> 02:10:58.079
in the battle at Tucker Gar talks about the the
2158
02:10:58.199 --> 02:11:05.119
advent of technology and how that at times was believed
2159
02:11:05.359 --> 02:11:08.840
to be the same as having true situational awareness for
2160
02:11:08.920 --> 02:11:11.520
what was going on in the battlefield. And I think
2161
02:11:11.560 --> 02:11:14.640
anybody that's been there knows that that will never replace
2162
02:11:15.079 --> 02:11:19.239
boots on ground. If you listen to if you've read
2163
02:11:19.239 --> 02:11:24.119
any of Blabor's books, that's one of the consistent themes
2164
02:11:24.159 --> 02:11:28.279
that he espouses in his book The Mission to Men
2165
02:11:28.319 --> 02:11:30.680
and Me. He always gives credence to the men on
2166
02:11:30.720 --> 02:11:33.359
the ground. He always his lesson is listened to the
2167
02:11:33.399 --> 02:11:36.479
boots on the ground. So I think there's elements where
2168
02:11:36.520 --> 02:11:41.560
the technology will never completely and totally replace that level
2169
02:11:41.600 --> 02:11:46.000
of situational awareness, but absolutely it enhances as long as
2170
02:11:46.039 --> 02:11:47.760
it's not abused or misused.
2171
02:11:53.119 --> 02:11:56.199
Hey, Rob, thank you so much. We really, we deeply
2172
02:11:56.199 --> 02:11:58.079
appreciate it's fascinating.
2173
02:11:59.319 --> 02:12:03.600
As I appreciate shall haveing me. Thanks for the opportunity. Uh,
2174
02:12:04.800 --> 02:12:07.199
most people want to hear the rest of the story
2175
02:12:07.279 --> 02:12:10.239
on the on the Chapman piece. Thanks for giving me
2176
02:12:10.279 --> 02:12:13.279
a chance to tell a little bit of what I
2177
02:12:13.319 --> 02:12:17.039
would say is otherwise insignificant. You know, if if I
2178
02:12:17.079 --> 02:12:21.359
had to to surmize, like the key event in my
2179
02:12:21.479 --> 02:12:26.640
overall career, it's literally having an impact on Chapman's metal
2180
02:12:26.720 --> 02:12:31.199
upgrade and being there and what's actually carried forward to now.
2181
02:12:32.039 --> 02:12:35.359
But but otherwise, I'm just a small cog and a wheel.
2182
02:12:36.119 --> 02:12:38.439
But happen to be able to speak truth to power
2183
02:12:38.479 --> 02:12:41.039
when it counted for that matter, and uh, you know,
2184
02:12:41.720 --> 02:12:44.479
damn a seal false narrative. You want to tell lies
2185
02:12:44.520 --> 02:12:46.640
in front of general officers, I'm gonna call you out,
2186
02:12:46.640 --> 02:12:47.479
Commander Heartwell.
2187
02:12:48.159 --> 02:12:51.560
And for a bonus for our patron viewers, we are
2188
02:12:51.600 --> 02:12:55.239
trying to get access to your g drive where you
2189
02:12:55.359 --> 02:13:06.319
have basically documented clip wise slabs changing story over over time.
2190
02:13:07.439 --> 02:13:11.359
Yeah, I will work with d to get that drive
2191
02:13:12.000 --> 02:13:16.079
at least over to you guys. You'll have like read only.
2192
02:13:16.199 --> 02:13:19.640
But however, however, you can technically make that available to
2193
02:13:19.760 --> 02:13:23.039
your patreon folks. Dude, this is all public stuff and
2194
02:13:23.359 --> 02:13:26.119
if nothing else, you can look at the file names
2195
02:13:26.199 --> 02:13:28.640
and just google the stuff yourself. It's out there on
2196
02:13:28.720 --> 02:13:32.119
YouTube like it's nothing that came from my own private collection.
2197
02:13:32.359 --> 02:13:34.960
Yeah, fantastic, Thanks again, Rob, Thank you for.
2198
02:13:36.479 --> 02:13:39.039
My pleasure. Guys. Thank y'all. I appreciate you having me
2199
02:13:40.319 --> 02:13:44.119
all Rightyboddy, thank you. I have I got one thing
2200
02:13:45.000 --> 02:13:47.359
my wife put in my ear. We were talking about
2201
02:13:47.399 --> 02:13:51.279
the petition before, so you kicked off a huge interest
2202
02:13:51.279 --> 02:13:53.239
in what was going on at the Medal of Honor Museum.
2203
02:13:53.880 --> 02:13:58.039
At the same time, Matt Koubler started a petition that
2204
02:13:58.239 --> 02:14:03.960
ties back to Representative Paulina Luna out of Tampa, Florida.
2205
02:14:04.840 --> 02:14:08.920
There was confusion amongst the audiences out there, and so
2206
02:14:09.399 --> 02:14:12.000
what I would what I wanted to relay was a
2207
02:14:12.279 --> 02:14:14.640
thank you for what you did with your original petition,
2208
02:14:15.159 --> 02:14:17.680
but if there's any way that you can spark interest
2209
02:14:17.840 --> 02:14:20.880
towards the one that's tied towards Paulina Luna and having
2210
02:14:21.039 --> 02:14:23.640
Congress take a look at this event itself.
2211
02:14:23.880 --> 02:14:29.399
Yes, absolutely appreciate it, absolutely well. In fact, i'll link
2212
02:14:29.600 --> 02:14:32.000
It'll be in the link below. We'll put it in
2213
02:14:32.079 --> 02:14:37.000
links below and I will also through the through my
2214
02:14:37.119 --> 02:14:40.560
petition send out a link to Math's petition.
2215
02:14:41.680 --> 02:14:44.680
Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you guys again,
2216
02:14:44.840 --> 02:14:45.920
it's a pleasure to being here.
2217
02:14:46.039 --> 02:14:50.960
Thanks. Thanks. Hey, guys, it's Jack.
2218
02:14:51.039 --> 02:14:52.399
I just want to talk to you for a moment
2219
02:14:52.439 --> 02:14:54.600
about how you can support the show. If you've been
2220
02:14:54.640 --> 02:14:57.119
watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a
2221
02:14:57.159 --> 02:14:59.560
little bit more involved and help us continue to do this,
2222
02:15:00.119 --> 02:15:03.159
you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon dot
2223
02:15:03.159 --> 02:15:07.319
com slash the Teamhouse, and for five dollars a month,
2224
02:15:07.399 --> 02:15:09.960
you can get access to all of these episodes of
2225
02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:14.159
The Teamhouse ad free. The same goes with our affiliated
2226
02:15:14.159 --> 02:15:18.720
podcast eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons mcmulroy that
2227
02:15:18.840 --> 02:15:21.640
one you will also get all of those episodes add free.
2228
02:15:22.279 --> 02:15:25.439
And you support the channel and the show, and we
2229
02:15:25.520 --> 02:15:29.520
really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has
2230
02:15:29.520 --> 02:15:34.279
helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our
2231
02:15:34.319 --> 02:15:37.520
early years, and you are what continues to help this
2232
02:15:37.600 --> 02:15:41.680
thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of
2233
02:15:41.720 --> 02:15:42.840
YouTube advertising.
2234
02:15:43.119 --> 02:15:44.880
So we really appreciate all of you guys.
2235
02:15:45.760 --> 02:15:47.399
There's going to be a link down in the description
2236
02:15:47.520 --> 02:15:51.039
to that Patreon page, and there is also going to
2237
02:15:51.039 --> 02:15:53.840
be a link to our new merch shop, so if
2238
02:15:53.880 --> 02:15:56.239
you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise,
2239
02:15:56.279 --> 02:16:01.119
we got stickers and we also have patches mentioned if
2240
02:16:01.159 --> 02:16:03.520
you sign up for Patreon at ten dollars a month,
2241
02:16:03.560 --> 02:16:07.119
we will nail you this patch as well, so we
2242
02:16:07.319 --> 02:16:10.199
really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the
2243
02:16:10.239 --> 02:16:14.079
merch Shop and additionally, they got t shirts up there,
2244
02:16:14.560 --> 02:16:19.279
water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that good stuff,
2245
02:16:19.880 --> 02:16:22.159
So please go and check them out and support the show.
2246
02:16:22.720 --> 02:16:24.000
We really appreciate it, guys.
2247
02:16:24.079 --> 02:16:48.440
Thank you,