Janet Lee: When the Path Finds You First

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The steeper path, I'm I choose, leaving comfort, nothing to lose Through shadow trails and rocky ground.
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My purpose clear, my meaning found.
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Each step I take brings strength anew, challenges faced, resilience grew, a journey tough, but richly sweet.
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Where sold in life surlight me.
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At peaks that had a vision clear.
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My greatest goal is becoming near.
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The steep spray for the steep.
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That doesn't fit my model of modern Korea when it comes to child raising.
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And because it was everybody I know who's Korean, their parents are like, you must be academically focused because the world is so crazy competitive.
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And really discourages, you know, almost to the point of like, no, you know, you you shouldn't be playing.
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You should be in here studying.
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And I love that your mom is more balanced and that she kind of intuitively had that approach.
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She seems like a really special person from that perspective.
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Like she she came at it with a very balanced um perspective.
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Is she from a big city or from the a smaller town or countryside?
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Yeah, um, she predominantly lived in Seoul in Korea, but she is one of six children.
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And so I think uh, you know, yes, uh my grandparents cared about their education and making sure that they went to universities, but I don't know if it was just as hardcore as what you would allude to, which is, you know, studying all day every day.
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Every grade, you know, matters to the very end.
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If anything, I I think my mom was so relaxed because I was so um disciplined myself.
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Uh, I think I somehow ended up wanting to be really good at whatever I do.
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And so she maybe felt, I don't know, I'm assuming here, but maybe she might have felt like, okay, she already has a lot of pressure on herself anyway.
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Why would I add to it?
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Um but you're right.
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Academically, she never chastised me for anything.
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Um, I never felt the pressure academically.
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I've always wanted to excel in it, but she never did.
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Um, but the only thing that she was very, very adamant about is being consistent in my violin practices.
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For some shape or reason, I even asked her, you know, a few years before.
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And I said, Mom, like, did you expect me to be a professional violinist?
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Because she she was so adamant about my practices, making sure that I'm disciplined, getting those reps in.
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And she was like, No, actually, I never expected you to be a violinist.
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And so I think what that tells me is she cared more about the reps that I put in and the consistency and bringing in that work ethic and making sure that that is just embedded into my system so that anything that I do in life, that I can do it with such rigor.
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Because I think she also realized that, you know, I have a lot of passion.
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As a person, I do need to work on follow-through at times.
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And so I think she really noticed that early on in my childhood and just like, well, Jana has a lot of energy.
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Jana has a lot of passion for things.
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She'll do it with full gusto.
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The improvement area that I see in my child is uh she needs to continue this.
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She needs to continue this passion and not burn out.
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So I think that was really smart of her.
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Yeah, that's a really astute observation from a parent's perspective because yeah, that grit, that learning the muscle of putting in the reps and learning how to stick with something, how to see it through, and how to develop a sense of mastery and muscle memory, that is an incredible skill for success later in life.
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But um the fact that she was able to see it and to separate it from the aspiration of like you you have to do this because you're gonna become a pro versus you have to do this because it's good for you to learn how to see things through, right?
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That's really cool.
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So you started playing the violin at, you know, you said seven.
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Yeah, I don't know exactly what age, probably six or seven.
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Uh, I still remember uh, you know, when we were leaving for the United States, uh, I have a photo of me performing in front of my classmates as a goodbye present.
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And I don't know how normal that is.
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But I remember doing that.
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And then, yeah, you know, financially had the means for me to, you know, get private lessons in Korea and making sure that I'm playing with other kids in orchestra formats.
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I think coming to the United States, uh, definitely the finances were tighter.
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And so, as, you know, you know, there's public school-free education and music lessons.
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Um, I don't know if you're aware, but so fourth grade through sixth grade, uh, I still remember um being in those classes in my public school.
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And, you know, people are like, wow, you're actually at a different level than we are.
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We're just starting at the age of, I don't know, 10, 11.
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Um, but yeah, I kind of craved more challenging classes at that time just because I got a head start, and to be fair.
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Um and we lived in a neighborhood.
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Um, so I grew up in Orange County, but not in the most affluent part of Orange County.
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I think a lot of people associate Orange County with, you know, everyone is rich, everyone is doing well.
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I lived in a smaller town inland called Garden Grove.
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And yeah, I would say the public school system is not the best.
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And when it was time to choose junior high, the local neighborhood one that we would be defaulted to, um, not the best rep.
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I think my mom was trying to understand, okay, how do I provide a really good education for my kids, even though I personally can't take them to private school?
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And so uh I remember there was like three to four months where she saved up money for me to take private violin lessons so that I can be prepared to go through the audition of, you know, joining Orange County High School of the Arts.
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Um, it's called OSHA.
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Uh, still runs to this day, I think, uh, based in Santa Ana.
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Um, but yeah, it was a very intense couple months in sixth grade.
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And uh yeah, did the audition.
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Thankfully, I was able to join the school.
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And it's been a really fun ride since then.
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So I attended OSHA from seventh grade until 12th grade.
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Was this something that you also enjoyed?
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Because to play for so long, I imagine you had to.
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You had you had to find some sort of passion in the violin.
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Mm-hmm.
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I would say it wasn't specifically the violin itself, but I did love being immersed in music.
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Um I think while I was very shy, I think I was also very sensitive as a child.
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Maybe I'm sensitive now as well.
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Just I kind of have that tendency of picking up emotions and others and myself, being more reflective.
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Um, but it was a way for me to find another world where I could express who I was.
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Um, I think if you think about the context of a child, you know, in some ways I'm a third culture kid.
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You know, I've moved around a bit in Korea, Indonesia, came to the US.
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My family dynamic looks different here.
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Things were kind of unstable in a lot of ways.
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Um, and music was a place where I can feel the grounding, you know, feel like there's a familiar sense of a threat that linked me from when I was very little to being an adolescent.
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That was a thing that really was a continuity in my life.
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And I think if it wasn't for music, I wouldn't be the person that I am today when it comes to expression, connecting with others, collaborating, teamwork.
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And so um, yeah, I definitely still have a soft spot for music.
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I'm surrounded by it all the time.
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Um, but the playing part I do miss a lot.
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And I still remember when I was little, I was 12 or 13, I would notice sometimes my family member being super tired, exhausted, maybe a little bit sad.
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And I would, you know, take the headphones off and would give it to them and say, hey, like let me play you some songs that might relax you, or let me play you some songs that will put you in a better mood.
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And so, in some ways, later on, I learned that, you know, that could be a form of music therapy.
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Like you can be a music therapist as a career.
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But of course, you know, when you're 13 and, you know, this is like early 2000s, that's not really a common thing.
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And so I kind of did that without even knowing, and knowing that music can be healing.
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And maybe it was a way for me to also heal the inner parts of myself that kind of lack that stability at times in my life.
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That's very cool.
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So you had a very empathetic, connected relationship with music and people through that as well.
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It it sharpened your empathy in some ways and allowed you to see things in patterns in people and music as well.
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Yeah.
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Um, even in college, I would uh burn CDs and make specialized Taylor playlists for all of my friends and would gift them.
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And so I think for me it was a sharing of self, um, but also allowing to allowing myself to see them for where they are and see what really helps them feel better or be inspired.
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I miss stuff like that.
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I miss uh mixtapes and CDs and giving music as gifts because it used to be so um music was scarce, you had to pay per song per album for it, and it was a lot of money, you know, it was like 20 bucks for a CD.
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And so if you wanted the one song on the CD, you paid 20 bucks to get the one song, and it was so fun to be able to make things for other people, like uh curated collections and mixtapes.
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And so yeah, I love that memory that you're sharing for that reason because I used to I used to do it too, and um, you know, I'm old enough that you know there was a time when we had, you know, the only way to get certain songs was from the radio, and so you would use a taped, like a cassette tape deck, like a double deck, and record one song off of the radio and try to make a new mixtape out of it.
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And but yeah, no, that's really cool.
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Music is, I mean, music's a big part of my life too.
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Uh, and so I totally feel that connection um to music and and how that plays into your development, into your life, and into who you become.
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And you you you mentioned you miss playing, so I take it you don't actively play violin, uh, and you know, even professionally, obviously not.
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But um is it still part of your life?
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Do you play at all?
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You know, I have it sitting in my closet.
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It's been there for a bit.
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Um I do get a craving to pick it up, but uh I don't know if this is a comparable analogy, but if you're used to being an athlete performing at a certain level, and for you to realize that if you were to pick it up, you'd be an amateur at the lowest of low levels all over again, and you have to kind of climb that hill.
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Uh it's pretty daunting.
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It's a little bit, you know, uh hurtful to your ego too.
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So I really enjoy going to LA Phil.
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And when I lived in San Francisco, I would see San Francisco Symphony all the time and their performances.
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But personally for me, no, but never say never.
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Maybe I'll go back to it someday.
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It yeah, I I get it.
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I mean, it's about warming the muscles up again and getting the body and the brain connection going.
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Um I I will say though that muscle memory with music is amazing.
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And it is you know, I will put my instruments down and not play them for a while and pick them back up and be like, wow, this all came back within a few reps.
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So I'd encourage you to take it out and play around a little bit and just see how far gone those muscles are because it may surprise you a little bit how how strongly burned in your hard drive they are.
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But anyway.
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That's great.
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So music took you through to high school and brought you into high school.
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And it sounds like there was never a plan to be a professional musician.
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So where did your where did your schooling take you?
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Where did you end up sort of going after the Orange County School of the Arts if you weren't going to be a professional musician?
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Um, where'd you land in college and what did you think you might want to do when you were there?
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Yeah, I still really wanted to be in a profession of helping others and healing others.
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And for me at that time, it was such a narrow path of understanding professions.
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Um, who helps other people?
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Who heals other people?
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I think for me, that was a doctor.
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Um, so uh I still remember my school days would look like, you know, starting around 8 a.m., 8:30 a.m.
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And then our academic classes would end at 2 p.m.
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And since we're in art school, we would have our academic or arts curriculum from 2 to 5 p.m.
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So that would be a combination of music theory, orchestra, you know, violin practices.
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Um, I took conducting lessons, producing classes, which were really cool.
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And then after 5 p.m.
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rolls around, I would go to um Children's Hospital of Orange County and be a nurse's assistant.
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So I volunteered, uh, I would say the last three years of my high school in preparation of wanting to become a pediatrician.
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So I think that's always been a thing for me all along.
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Um and yeah, when when it came time to attending universities, uh I predominantly wanted to stay in California.
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I don't want to leave too far away from my mom and my sister.
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And fortunately, I was able to get um good scholarship to attend USC.
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And that's how I ended up there.
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Funnily enough, a lot of public schools like Berkeley and ECLA, uh, they weren't as generous.
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And maybe it's because, you know, it's the nature of public school versus private school, but uh feel very lucky and fortunate to have attended USC for my undergraduate.
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That's really cool.
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So it feels like that that thread of um wanting to be a pediatrician for when you were a little girl that that popped back up and it stayed there and it kind of carried you through.
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Was the plan to go to USC and study medicine then?
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Yeah.
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So when I first attended USC, I came in with a biochem pre-med path.
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Um, I realized that every semester was already pre-planned for me.
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There wasn't a lot of wiggle room to take any other classes that I enjoyed, whether that be in the arts, whether that be in other classes.
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And uh, you know, I don't know if you consider this kind of the universe had a had a different path for me, but I remember some of my um dormates were part of this uh organization called Lacey, Los Angeles Um Community Impact.
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And they do pro bono consulting for nonprofits and small businesses that wouldn't have business consulting otherwise as something that they can lean into.
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And so every semester they would have three to four students paired up in a project where they would be doing business plans, marketing plans, uh, things that could be really helpful for a lot of businesses locally in Los Angeles that couldn't, you know, afford those types of services otherwise to boost their business.
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And so when I joined the group, I realized that there's a lot of different ways for you to impact the world and, you know, to make a mark that was really, you know, good beyond just medicine.
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And I think that kind of gave me an aha moment of like, oh, there's other options that I could explore that I've never really considered before.
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I think growing up, business felt a little scary to me.
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Business felt very um male dominant, business felt a little shady.
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Um, I was always associated with, well, if you want to do good in business, you have to be a salesperson.
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And like I like I mentioned, I was a bit shy growing up.
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And so I was like, there's no way that I could be a saleswoman.
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And so I think there was a lot of self-limiting beliefs in addition to, oh, the only way that I can help people is to heal and make them feel better in a in a medicinal field.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I can see how that can how it can happen.
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And I I I can relate because I had a similar experience of of realizing when I was a young, fairly young in my life, that healing and helping was something that was important to me.
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It was something I wanted to do.
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And then thinking that the only path was, you know, medicine, doctor.
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That's that's the only way to help.
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And then to feel quite boxed in by the the options and how you become a doctor and whether you're gonna have the brain that sort of falls into line with the academic path to being a doctor.
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And so that the world doesn't necessarily help us see that helping comes in different forms.
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Maybe today more more so.
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I would kind of argue that there's more exposure, I think, to by young people to mental health, to being aware of things like coaching and development, personal development.
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Um, that it's it's not just about being sick and healing, but helping people perform and and do better and be better all across many aspects of their lives.
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But um, I I fully can understand how you could come to that point of view.
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Um, did that time working with nonprofits did that show you a little bit of a different way to help?
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That there was another path to that same impulse or that same instinct?
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Yeah, I think the biggest difference that I've realized is um impact meant one to many.
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So when you help an organization, you're helping that organization help other people en masse.
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And I think, you know, being a doctor, yes, you definitely make an impact one-on-one.
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But I really saw another look to like, what does it look like to scale out help?
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Um, and that was kind of of that aha moment.
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And I would say, frankly, as well, I think the such restrictedness of medicine and the path to medicine um worried me too, frankly.
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Uh, when I was 18, I was like, wait, like, is it a guarantee that by the time I hit 30 and I'm in residency, would I still really want this the way that I want it?
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Also, it's really expensive to be in a pre-med track.
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You know, you'd be in debt for a long time.
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And and I think I was in a mindset of, well, you know, eventually I do want to help out my mom.
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Uh, I want to make sure that if anything happens, that I'd be able to provide that financial safety for my family.
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And uh being quarter million dollars in debt or plus, it didn't feel safe for me.
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So that was also a personal reason as to why I'm like, well, um, what if there are other ways to help?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
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So, where does that take you?
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Where did you end up coming out of what did you major in and where did you end up coming out of college then with that revelation?
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Yeah, so I majored um, so definitely different.
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Uh, majored in business.
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Uh, USC is known for their business school, so I was part of Marshall School of Business.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.240
And I was one class short from being a minor in neuroscience.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:49.680
So I still love psychology.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:57.039
I loved learning about the dynamics kind of in our society, what makes us, you know, behave the way that we do.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.200
Um, how does that play into business?
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:00.960
How does that Play into politics.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.200
I think I've always been curious about that.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:09.039
And um yeah, I think another part of me was really curious about technology in general.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.720
You know, things were shifting, you know, so fast.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:20.160
Um, and I wanted to see if I wanted to go into the music industry from a business perspective.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:28.720
And this was at a time where artists weren't making a lot of money uh any longer with different business models at hand.
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.759
Um, this was, I would say this was right after the financial crisis.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:36.240
So it was like 2008, 2009.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.079
I graduated in 2012.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.799
Um but yeah, I was like, well, what would music look like?
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.960
What would connecting with other people look like in the next decade?
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:59.759
Um, I was, you know, maybe accidentally, but I was really thinking about kind of consumer and how we consume services and software being different, harbor being different.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:06.240
Um, I loved uh, you know, the design around Apple and I was a fan of it myself.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:11.039
And luckily, I was able to get an internship with Apple my junior year of college.
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.799
And they had a program called Um Finance Development Program.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:28.880
And it's a two-year program postgraduate that you get to rotate in different business units within Apple and learn about their business models, um, learn about, you know, financial forecasting and analysis and business strategy.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:31.200
And it was a really well-rounded program.
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:37.599
Um, another perk is that you get to do a rotation internationally in one of their Apple offices around the world.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:49.920
And so I was like, well, this is amazing for you to spend, you know, age 22 to 24 really understanding the ins and out of one of the companies that I really admire and respect.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:57.680
Um, so yeah, luckily I went through the summer internship, ended up getting an offer.
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:03.440
And I still remember I had a mentor, a USC mentor.
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:08.640
And when I got the offer letter, um, that was around the time when Steve Jobs passed.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.799
And I remembered um my mentor looked at me and, you know, he was like, Are you sure you really want to go there?
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:19.200
I don't know if they have longevity left in the business anymore since the founder passed.
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.640
And I was like, Well, I I still feel like I can learn so much.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:32.960
And hopefully, if you build the right business, you know, you have some succession plans and there's ways for this to really embody the ethos of the founder.
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:44.960
But maybe even when the founder is gone, you can still cultivate this, you know, this love and the culture and the ethics of someone that, you know, have established it earlier on.
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.799
And so decided to take it.
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:55.279
Um, I don't think my mentor agreed with me, but I have no regrets having that be my first job out of college.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:10.720
Yeah, it's it's quite a lucky experience to land into a company like Apple right out of school and to do it in a way that allowed you to get exposure to a lot of different parts of the company and how it works as well.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:18.880
Because um there's a lot of ways to enter a big company out of school, and not all of them give you this type of a perspective.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:23.839
Um, what did what did you love about working at Apple, or what did you learn during your time there?
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:29.200
I'm not asking for any trade secrets, of course, but it's such a unique business.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:35.759
It's such a unique, uh uniquely run, iconic business that's that does things its own way.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:43.039
But I'm just curious because I know a lot of people who have spent time there and um, you know, everybody takes something different away.
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:44.640
Yeah.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:26:11.359
I um I think I really value artistry and the care and the attention that Apple puts into everything, even to the way that they design the retail storefronts, to the materials that they use in their supply chain, to um how organized and clean it is, even in the way that you open up your laptop and you get to see the beauty even within.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.599
And even when it's not external facing, you care about what's inside.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:28.400
And I think that's the biggest takeaway that I've really learned from Apple, which is um whatever you do, do it with care, do it with intentionality, do it with um focus on details.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:39.599
Um, I think the, you know, I think in Silicon Valley, there's also uh, you know, a celebration of break things, you know, move fast, break things ethos.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:47.200
I think for Apple, it was very much like we're never gonna be the first movers in any of the businesses.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.400
But when we come in, it's gonna be well done.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:58.240
And I really uh take that to this day in in whatever I do and the work ethic.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:01.519
I've I've learned so much from all the people that I've worked with at Apple.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:10.079
And I would say to this day, uh, you know, the hardest workers and the employees and the colleagues that I've worked with have been in from Apple.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:18.640
Um, and the attention to detail uh to the point where, you know, I remember helping prepare for earnings calls.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:28.319
And every period in the sentence matters, every grammar, every spelling mistake, every of course you're working with numbers as well, so you want to be accurate in everything.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.920
But I think that was pretty pervasive in whatever department you were in.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.960
Doesn't matter if you were in finance, doesn't matter if you were in engineering, design.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:42.720
Um yeah, it was it was a very respectful type of culture.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:49.599
And and um I kind of like look for that in in others that I collaborate with, that I work with.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:50.880
Yeah.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:12.319
It's a high bar to get exposed to right away out of school, because I think uh a lot of people end up in the tech world going into an early stage startup where things are a lot more like college, where it's a little bit more fast and loose, and it's young people collaborating, figuring things out on their own for the first time their own way.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:20.160
And Apple is a very intentional, very mature organization, not run by young people.
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:22.799
It's run by people over 50 predominantly.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:40.480
And um it's really interesting to s to sort of walk into an example like that where, you know, I I would imagine most finance departments, if you were doing FPNA and then coming into that world and a mature publicly traded company, you're gonna have a lot more rigor than a startup.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.799
But Apple does it even at another level of attention to detail.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.079
So you you kind of got the the bar set high.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:51.440
Did how long did you stay there?
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.000
Not too long.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:05.119
So uh, you know, the program is two years long, and the hope is that you find a department that you love and uh you join it for a longer period of time after the fact.
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:09.680
Um, the last project that I worked on was pre-Apple Pay.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:17.599
So uh, you know, it was a rotation for the first time that I got to work on a pre-launch product that didn't exist outside.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.559
And um, my department was responsible for thinking about the adoption rate.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:33.039
So, how do you forecast a three-year to a five-year adoption rate of the POS, the retail storefronts that would adopt the right machines to make sure that Apple Pay works?
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:44.400
But also on the consumer side, how long would it take for us to make sure that that consumer habit becomes a regular thing that you do at a grocery store, at another retail store, et cetera, et cetera?
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.480
And so I really enjoyed that.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:51.839
It was um a startup experience that I didn't get to experience in other departments that I've been in.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:30:02.720
You know, I've been in iTunes department, I've been in iPhone sales, you know, I've been in the education sector within Apple and how to sell through districts and different schools.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.400
But this was the first time where we're studying the market.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.640
It's a new technology.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:13.119
Um, Apple hasn't really gone into the fintech side of things until then.
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:16.400
And this was, you know, 20, 2014.
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.160
So it was really exciting.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:26.160
People didn't know what was going to happen, but you do you try to predict to the best of your abilities and also think about it from an international perspective.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:31.920
Well, what the adoption look like in AMIA versus in America versus an APAC, and how do you roll this out?
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.880
And so I think that's when I kind of caught the startup bug.
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:40.319
And I was like, well, I could stay at Apple, um, perfecting this skill.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.000
But also, I'm kind of in my earlier part of my 20s.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.599
Um, I could, you know, it's kind of like golden handcuffs.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:49.680
You can be there forever if you really wanted.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:50.559
Absolutely.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:54.240
Um, so I actually quit without a job.
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:59.519
Um, I quit and I was like, well, I think I need to be uncomfortable for a little bit because I do want to improve.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:01.039
I do want to be challenged.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.640
And maybe it's a little too early for me to do that when I'm 24.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:05.920
Yeah.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:12.079
That's that's in many ways, doesn't surprise me at all.
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:21.119
I think a lot of people might be surprised by why would you walk away from a company with so much uh growth and prestige and possibility?
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:37.680
Um, but that zero-to-one bug, again, kind of connecting the red thread back to creativity, that is a creative act of building something new, of uh of solving these puzzles and riddles of how do we make something better for people?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:43.119
And how do we take something that does not exist and make it exist and figure out how it grows?
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:46.880
Um, that bug, I get it fully.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:32:00.559
And uh I think you know, when you're young, especially and you have the time and the priorities, the bandwidth to focus on exploration and and creation versus you know maintaining and optimizing.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:06.799
Um it makes sense that you would want more of that in your life as a creative individual.
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:11.920
So what startup did you end up finding your way to, or what what industry?
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:20.480
Yeah, and so I didn't know what industry to specialize in quite yet.
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:27.599
And within a few weeks, um I was able to join a small VC fund called Funders Club.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:35.200
And something interesting about this VC firm is that they're a startup in itself, in that they went through a Y Combinator.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.000
Um, I think they graduated in 2012.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:49.519
And so it was thinking about how do you build a software platform where you can have a credit investor invest in startups, but kind of at a smaller check size.
00:32:49.680 --> 00:33:02.400
So, how do you spin up a single-purpose vehicle fund and have, you know, multiple investors come into it and that you're still able to get access to private investments.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:10.799
And so it is a way as an, you know, it was an interesting and smoother transition from FPNA to that world.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:18.640
I think eventually I did want to get to a more creative department and I ended up being in product marketing for a long, much longer time after the fact.
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:24.400
But, you know, before then, I was like, well, I don't know what to provide to startups from an FPNA perspective.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.880
You know, if you are a startup that is a seed stage, a series A, series B, they don't need a finance person.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:31.759
They need doers.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.440
You know, they need to, even before you track, what are you building?
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:46.880
And so I think it was a good transition for me to see it as like, okay, there's some skill set that I can transfer over to when I'm thinking about doing due diligence of series seed and series A startups.
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:49.839
Like, what does it look like to draft an investment memo?
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.039
Um so yeah, did that.
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:59.839
Um, and that was around the time where I learned more about the ARVR industry.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.640
Um, Crypto Web3 was kind of having its first wave of boom.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:09.599
And yeah, got really exposed to kind of nascent technologies at the time.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:21.119
And I still remember going to an art studio, and there is an artist that created an experience on the Oculus TK one.
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:27.599
So it was a developer kit, it wasn't a commercialized, you know, um, product that you put on your face, and it was really heavy.
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:32.400
So I put it on, the frame rate is super low, and I got a headache after that.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:41.840
But when I put it on and I had that experience, I was like, wow, like this could be in another way in which we can live our lives and experience things in a different way.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:48.239
And for us to feel like we can really be in another, you know, shoes of another.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:53.599
Uh, I think her experience was recreating some of her memories and how she lived in her childhood.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:05.679
And for me to put that on and feel as though I'm in that room as her, it really gave me empathy towards what technology can do to foster this type of connectedness between all of us.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:17.199
And and I think, you know, having been in Silicon Valley for a long time, some people see technologies as a, you know, it's a fun thing to do.
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.679
Like, what can we create with this type of energy?
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:36.320
I think for me, I've always seen technology as a as a purpose vehicle towards how do we rethink and reflect about humanity, how do we think about connection, how do we think about um finding that sense of community or connectedness?
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:46.719
And I think for me, it was an enabler more than it's a fun little gimmick that we can use to try new things.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.360
And I think that's always been a part of me in the way that I perceive technology to this day.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:55.039
Yeah.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:15.840
You got exposed to the power of technology as a human augmenting force to make humanity uh better in interesting ways to augment our capabilities or our realities, whatever it is.
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:26.559
I think that's quite a unique experience to get to be exposed to a lot of ground floor um very early stage bleeding-edged uh technologies.
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:39.519
And and I imagine VC is probably one of the more interesting or or more um diverse ways to get exposed to a lot of this very quickly.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:41.840
Did did you like working in VC?
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.280
Was that a lot of fun?
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:48.320
Or was it w tell me about the things that were good and bad about that culture for you?
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:53.440
Yeah, I think the good thing is um it's drinking out of a fire hose.
00:36:53.519 --> 00:37:01.199
You know, I I've worked in a public company and now we're looking at very early stage founders and what they're hoping to accomplish.
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:06.079
And so it went from being very numbers-driven to vision driven.
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:08.400
And I found that really interesting.
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:16.800
Um, this was also a time where I found that storytelling in any aspect of your work is so pivotal.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:24.400
Um and I really liked working with people who were scrappy, and I would constantly get inspired by entrepreneurs.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:32.800
And I think in some ways, I wanted to be one myself, but you know, being on the other side in the investing side is safer.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:38.400
And so in that way, I was a bit of a coward, but I also was kind of living through that ecosystem.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:48.559
Um, the bad part, I would say, you know, I think it's gotten a lot better now when it comes to gender ratio within the VC industry.
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:57.519
Um, but I still remember there were moments where I didn't feel like uh, yeah, there were moments where it gave me pause.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:04.079
So an example could be, you know, we had a founder coming in to pitch for, you know, a seat investment.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.239
And I would open the door, and you know, when I would say, hey, like, how's it going?
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:14.480
I think they might have perceived me as an executive assistant or whatnot.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:25.440
And so I got them water, I brought them upstairs and they got seated, they were getting comfortable, they were putting on their computer, you know, turning on their laptop to, you know, showcase their pitch deck.
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:29.760
And I think they expected me to leave after the fact, after getting them comfortable.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.000
And then I actually sat across the table and I said, okay, like what would we like to talk about today?
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:40.239
And so I can like see the shock in their faces to realize that they're actually pitching to me that day.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.000
Um, so things like that.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:47.039
I think, you know, I don't think it's like that as much anymore, but that was 10 years ago.
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:56.800
So there's definitely moments where I'm like, okay, um, I don't look like the normal people in that ecosystem, at least back then.
00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:02.960
I think there's more of who I look like kind of in that, in that um ecosystem.
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:07.360
But at the time, I think it was still, you know, up and coming, I would say.
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:10.239
Yeah, I get it.
00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:15.440
Things have started to change and diversify, and I think for the better.
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:29.840
Uh, there's a lot more um female founders who have gone on to become investors and have changed the real dynamic around um representation of gender, of race, uh everything in VC, which is great.
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:31.440
I think it's good for the world.
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:40.239
Um, but I can only imagine I've heard plenty of stories from from friends and colleagues who've been in that situation, and it was it can be tough.
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:43.760
It can be tough to be underestimated to feel on the outside.
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:46.639
And um yeah, I get it.
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:49.679
Did you stay in VC for a long time?
00:39:49.840 --> 00:40:01.360
Was this a place that you really felt comfortable that you had like this might be the thing for me, or were you still on your journey of winding through the steeper path to figure out where you're gonna go next?
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:09.039
Yeah, um, I love that you speak about alignment in your book, um, Len.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:15.840
And I think eventually I knew in my heart of hearts that I wanted to have my own business.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:22.320
I didn't know what that would look like down the line, but I've always been curious about what that other side could look like.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:30.239
And so um it didn't feel like a place where I could be there long term, but I did learn a lot and I'm grateful for the experience.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:43.280
Um and yeah, I, you know, speaking about being in places where you don't feel like the norm, I caught another bug and I ended up going into ARVR.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:51.199
And that was also a very different experience because I realized at that time it was predominantly a use case of gaming.
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:54.320
I think even now it's a predominant use case of gaming.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:41:00.960
And the gaming industry is very different, you know, when it comes to culture, what's acceptable, what the norms are.
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:08.880
And so that was also another place where it opened up my eyes to like, wow, you know, this is an interesting culture in and of its own.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:10.960
Let's try to find out what it's like.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:27.440
So it was sort of the the out of all the exposure you got inside of uh VC to the various cutting edge technologies, this is one that caught your eye is like this this could be something interesting.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.400
I want to go double-click on it and get involved.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:35.440
And that kind of led you into that world to figure it out.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:37.679
Did you do product development?
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:42.159
Did you what what aspect of ARVR sort of got you interested?
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:49.360
Yeah, I was really curious about what makes someone pick up their headset and put it on.
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:52.480
I think they were still trying to get to product market fit.
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:57.920
I mean, even now, to be frank, I think there's a product Yeah, there's a product market fit issue.
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:05.599
Um, but at the time I found the power of the technology, I just realized that the use case was so niche.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.760
The use case was, hey, you just play games on this thing.
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:21.840
And for me, the reason why I was so interested in VR and AR is because I realized that you can connect with other people wherever you are, but in a more intimate and immersive setting.
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:30.639
And having an international background of, you know, I've, you know, at that time, by that time, I've studied abroad in France.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.719
Um, I've worked in Indonesia for a few months.
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.599
I've also worked in Japan for a few months.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:44.079
So I've really had this kind of global outlook of looking at friendships and communities that I was in.
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:55.199
And um, you know, when you feel like you belong everywhere, but not in a specific place, you see technology and its use case differently.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.480
And, you know, I used to constantly use Skype to connect with other people around the world.
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:18.000
And this was another use case in which maybe there's a world where we can traverse different digital worlds together, have common experiences like concert going experiences, but in the comforts of our home and not necessarily having to fly across the world just to meet them in person.
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:28.639
And so I think that use case was really fascinating to me, which is how do you have social experiences with the people you care about, but also if you want to meet other strangers from around the world?
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.280
Um, I think diversity is a beautiful thing.
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:39.920
I think, you know, the more we're exposed to how other people live in the world, the more we would have appreciation and respect for it and love for it.
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:50.400
Um so I think from that point, I was looking at it from uh, okay, what will this do when it comes to social experiences?
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:56.960
What will this do when it comes to consumer experiences, um, education as well?
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.760
You know, if you are differently.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:09.280
Able, um, and maybe you might not be able to climb, you know, I don't know, different places.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:12.639
Maybe you can't, you know, traverse within Machu Picchu area.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:14.800
What does it look like to put on your headset?
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:24.719
And for you to still feel as though you're there, you're able to explore and have that type of field trip experiences with your colleagues.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:33.440
If you, you know, if it's financially limiting or if you're physically limited to have that experience as, you know, someone else.
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:40.320
And so I think that types of use cases made me really excited, more than just can we have a fighting game?
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:42.400
Which was very common then.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:43.760
I get it.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:44.320
Yeah.
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:54.400
I I there's a a definite human application of ARVR that we're still trying to figure out the UI for or the experience or the need for.
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:03.679
But I'm with you 100% that there's we live in a globally distributed world in which people now leave where they grew up.
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:10.639
And they, you know, they leave where they are from, they leave the country they were born in, their community, their family, their friends for all kinds of reasons.
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:21.440
And technology has this incredible power to reconnect us, and VR could definitely bring us closer together from those, you know, large distances that are in our lives these days.
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:24.719
So solving that problem is exciting.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:27.679
I would want to work on it too, um, if I were you.
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:28.480
Yeah.
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:40.320
I want to go back and double-click on the you sort of casually dropped, you know, about alignment and feeling that you wanted to do something of your own.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:56.079
That there was something um there within you that was unfulfilled or a desire that was unmet, even though you've gotten to do all this incredible stuff, had a fantastic career building, but there was something else there.
00:45:56.239 --> 00:46:03.360
And I want to talk a little bit because I imagine you raised it because it kind of comes after ARVR, or was there another chapter?
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:07.440
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd love to hear more about that urge.
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:09.840
Yeah.
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:16.960
Um, even when I was little, I would make, you know, pretend pretend play all the time.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:23.840
And so I remember I would just lead a group of like my friends, you know, after school.
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:30.400
And I would say, okay, today we're gonna put on a talent show and we're gonna be presenting in front of the talent agency.
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:32.880
And so we have to come up with a stance choreography.
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:47.119
Or there would be another time where um I would say, okay, well, we are in a bakery business, and like we should figure out like what kind of things that make us like stand out, and we would be making it with sand, you know.
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:55.199
So it was just a really like I think I've always had that creative and inventiveness in me.
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:56.639
I just didn't know what it was.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:58.800
I didn't, I didn't know how to label it.
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:06.719
Um, and even at Apple, I remember, you know, commuting from San Francisco to Cupertino in those, you know, company shuttles.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.119
And it would take three hours round trip.
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:20.320
And sometimes instead of working, I would get my Excel sheet out and just start listing out all the different things that I would have created if I were to have my own business.
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:26.880
So it would range from having a professional services marketplace and what would that look like?
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:32.480
It's like the Airbnb of if you were to hire like musicians, what would that look like?
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.000
To I remember um, I was like, you know what?
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:42.719
It's super inefficient in airplanes to have those cups that wouldn't stack well.
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:44.320
And so what would you do?
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:48.239
Um, how can we redesign collapsible cups?
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:55.360
And so I've always just been really curious about okay, well, the world is the way that it is today, but how can we make it better?
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:57.599
How can we look at it from a different lens?
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.599
And that's always been within me.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:04.800
Um, but I also had a lot of self-doubt and self-lining beliefs, you know.
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:07.360
Hey, you're still just starting your career.
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:08.960
Like, what do you know?
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:12.480
Um, maybe it's better to learn from the best of the best.
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:15.679
Um, also, you're not financially secure at this time.
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.840
Maybe you should have that ready to go to feel more safe.
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.360
There's always excuses as to why I would prolong it.
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:26.719
Um, but I've always had the itch, I think.
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:47.519
Yeah, I I get I I get that combination of desire to build something of your own and the sandwich of those limiting beliefs being something that are in in constant tension with each other.
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:49.039
Uh, I've experienced it.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:51.760
A lot of people I've worked with have experienced it.
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:54.079
And it's a it's a thing.
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:55.360
I'm not gonna deny it.
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:56.400
It's a real thing.
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:04.880
There are certain sort of baseline needs we have to meet to be able to be ready to go build something on our own.
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:08.079
Um, and so it's it's a process of working through that.
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:13.199
Um how how did you work through it or how have you been working through it?
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:15.119
Maybe you're still on the journey.
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:18.079
I think I am.
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:27.039
Um I do think in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you do need a sense of foundation.
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.920
And so, in some ways, I found a little bit of that in myself, which I'm grateful for.
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:50.960
Um but also I think if you look at my background, I've gone I've gone through so many pivots and tried different things, tried different hats that you kind of after after doing those runs, you're like, okay, I've exhausted excuses as to why I wouldn't do the thing that I should be doing.
00:49:51.119 --> 00:50:07.920
You know, after a while, you exhaust yourself and you look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, well, like, how many more rounds of reinvention do you have to do to really understand that, you know, there's something that you've been prolonging for a long time that you might want to get started on?
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:14.000
Um so I think that to me was kind of a catapulting reason.
00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:32.079
And also I think I got to a place where I feel like I've seen different workplaces, different colleagues, different leadership to know that at the end of the day, the hardest problems to solve are human problems, people problems, more than anything else, um, even in tech companies.
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:46.559
And I think when I saw that, and I had a passion for it and a curiosity for it, and like a deep hunger for understanding what makes us more fulfilled and successful in our own way.
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:51.679
I think that's when that's when I was like, well, like there's nothing else that I want to do with my life at this point.
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:53.920
I should probably do this full-time.
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:57.280
I get it.
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.800
What does that look like then in practical terms?
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:04.079
How do you how do you navigate that with others?
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:06.239
Sure.
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:10.320
So, you know, I fast track.
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.519
I've been in ARVR space for nine plus years.
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:20.079
Um, the most recent kind of ARVR role that I was in was at Snapchat in the AR department.
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:27.760
And so we were thinking about Snap AR, um, the software in which you can create those lenses with AR experiences.
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:35.440
And Snap is a very interesting company where they do celebrate fostering that people culture.
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:41.519
Um, one of the first things they do in the onboarding journey as a new employee is to have a team council.
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:48.320
And all the newbies get to have this council experience where they get to know one another kind of in a deeper level.
00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:50.880
And they have full-time facilitators.
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:54.880
They have full-time team council facilitators that are hired to do these things.
00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:05.840
But also, even after the after the fact, when you're doing like one-year work anniversaries, you have your cross-functional team members come in and do a council with you to celebrate you, things of that sort.
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:15.840
And so I got really curious and wanted to go through training myself because I didn't realize that you can do this for a living.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:25.840
And so I ended up getting um certified in team council facilitation at um in like two different kinds of training that I've done.
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:34.639
And then um realized that I loved enjoying solving those types of problems of like, what does it look like to solve conflict issues?
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:37.199
What does it look like for us to think about collaboration?
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:46.960
What does it look like for us to go beyond, you know, kind of the ego and how do we practice active listening with one another?
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:51.679
And that kind of like made me dive into coaching in general.
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:55.519
And now I um coach full-time.
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:57.599
Super cool.
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:04.239
That is, you know, when you first started describing it as a team council, I was trying to imagine what that looks like.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:08.880
Um is it can you share a little bit more about that concept?
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:13.679
Because it it sounds like a peer support community and then it has a facilitator.
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.559
Is that or am I oversimplifying?
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:22.159
Yeah, honestly, I think team councils have been around since the dawn of time.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:34.639
You know, we would back in the day sit around the fireplace and tell tell each other stories and tell each other personal experiences, and that's the way that you practice active listening, but also empathy.
00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:43.199
You know, what does it look like for you to tell your side of the story and to really listen and to not just respond?
00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:50.480
And for us, that meant kind of creating this um non-hierarchical framework.
00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:55.599
And so everyone would kind of sit in a circular place so that it felt more democratic.
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:58.239
No one was above or below.
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:04.880
Um, everyone kind of had a seat at the table in a way, um, metaphorically and physically.
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:08.159
And people would go around and we would have a prompt.
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:15.840
So it was kind of an open-ended prompt where maybe it could be like, hey, you know, we're in the season of winter.
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:28.000
Uh tell us a story about a time where you've had to think about a moment of reflection and how that changed the trajectory of your next chapter.
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:40.639
We would all think and we would go around taking turns telling our stories and reflect on it and also tell it back and say, I heard someone say blank blink blank.
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:50.079
And it's it's a great way for us to understand what it would feel like to listen without judgment and to also see and hear each other out.
00:54:50.159 --> 00:55:02.880
And I know it's a very, it feels very voo-voo and like a very ethereal concept, but when put into practice and when you're in it, you can definitely understand the magic of it better than for us to just talk about it.
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:03.599
Yeah.
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:05.519
No, I I'm sure.
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:06.079
Yeah.
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:11.760
Is this sponsored by the HR team or uh where what part of the company brought this forward?
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.840
Because it's it's not the most common practice in most companies.
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:20.239
Yeah.
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:34.480
Um I I believe um Evan Spiegel, the founder of Snapchat, went through um, you know, during his schooling, this was part of the repertoire within the school that he attended when he was younger.
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:38.719
And he wanted to bring that type of ethos into his company when he started.
00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:46.480
And so I think it's always been part of their HR department um throughout the stage of scaling the company.
00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:48.159
Very cool.
00:55:48.480 --> 00:56:01.440
So that coming back to alignment sparked something within you, having experienced that and then seeing what unfolded in these situations, and you know, it it drew you towards it.
00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:06.639
Um that helper instinct kind of came back to the table again.
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:27.199
Yeah, I I've always felt like we were tackling interesting problems in the tech industry, but I don't know if we really hear each other well in discussions and really see each other from where we're in our own vantage points.
00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:32.000
And I think that was an experience where I really felt heard and seen by others.
00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:38.159
And I was like, wow, this is a very powerful tool that isn't shared in a lot of startups and companies.
00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:42.239
What would it look like for us to practice that and have that be the norm?
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:51.679
Um, and it takes a form of vulnerability, it takes a form of sharing, it takes a form of sensitivity and holding space for others.
00:56:51.920 --> 00:57:01.119
And I think our society in some ways has lost that magic in our day-to-day, you know, let alone doing that with your colleagues at work.
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:07.119
I don't know if we do that normally, you know, day-to-day with our families or our friends in general.
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:08.960
You know, if someone asks you, how are you?
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:10.639
Your default is, I'm good.
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:11.280
How are you?
00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:14.239
You know, it's a very much touch and go.
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:23.920
And I think I wanted to explore the depths of what conversation can unearth and kind of bring to the table for a lot of people to talk through and discuss.
00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:25.840
Yeah.
00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:27.920
How did you develop those skills?
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:30.159
Did you just do it through practicing and learning?
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:34.000
You did you mentioned some certifications, some courses you took?
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.480
Yeah, I think it's trial by error.
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:46.480
I, you know, I also do think there's some temperament that could play into what makes someone an effective listener.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:50.559
And I think I've told you earlier in our story, but I was quite shy.
00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:58.480
And I think when you're shy but so curious, you kind of take on a listener role in a lot of different relationships.
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:10.000
And so I've always felt like this wallflower that get to observe, that get to listen, that get to understand, that get to really analyze what's going on.
00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:18.159
And I think that's been a lifetime kind of thing that I've really enjoyed when talking to others, helping others.
00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:29.679
And it kind of made me naturally just bring that up again, but at the forefront, you know, instead of crunching numbers, now I'm thinking about okay, what am I missing here?
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.320
What are the things that are between the lines?
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:46.000
And um what does it look like to surface that for other people and for us to have some revolutionary thoughts and and and exploring the aha moments together?
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:48.320
And I think that was really exciting for me.
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:49.840
Yeah.
00:58:51.119 --> 00:59:02.079
So you stayed at SNAP doing this for a while in this capacity, and then it sounds like you eventually went off on your own and built your own facilitation and coaching practice.
00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:04.079
Is that where you're at today?
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:07.119
Yeah.
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:13.760
So, you know, even when I started through team facilitation, now I predominantly do one-on-one.
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:20.400
Um, but yes, I um I do executive coaching and career development coaching.
00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:28.639
Um, I would say my clients kind of span different industries, but I would say, you know, more likely than not in the tech industry, just because that's my background.
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:34.559
And then some kind of in healthcare and consulting and uh financial services.
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:36.639
Very cool.
00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:52.480
What did you bring from your career, uh all of your career collectively, um, that propelled you into coaching uh uh as sort of the next step for you?
00:59:52.639 --> 01:00:04.000
And and I guess maybe to more articulately put this, um I think coaching is one of these things that is very amorphous in how it's defined.
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:14.719
Some people think about it more as mentoring, some people think about it more as uh work therapy, some people think about it more as having a mentor.
01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:16.960
There's a lot of ways that we approach it.
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:24.000
What what was the part of coaching that you brought from your career toward the way you coach?
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:26.800
That's a great question.
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:47.840
Um I see coaching as seeing people's super strengths and superpower and doubling down on those more than really trying to find out all and nitpick kind of the areas of improvement and making them into a neutral state.
01:00:48.079 --> 01:00:54.400
Uh I think there's definitely room for improvement and constantly growing in the areas that are deficient.
01:00:54.639 --> 01:01:07.519
But for me, what's exciting is really getting to know an individual and their goals and support them and be a thought partner on their journey to really understand what they're known for, what their strengths are.
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:18.079
And I think that's kind of the ethos within your philosophy too, Len, which is you know, how do you get to that alignment which calls for what are your strengths?
01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:19.360
What are you really good at?
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:21.440
What are you uniquely suited to do?
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:26.559
And I think I have that type of um thinking as well.
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:38.320
Um in addition to, I find coaching so empowering in that you're not seeing the clients and you're you're not saying, oh, I have a solution for you.
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:44.079
It is with the thought that there's an answer within you and you already possess it.
01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:47.199
You're fully capable of knowing what that is.
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:49.840
There might be some things that get in the way.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:53.119
There's some obstacles, there's some things that make it muddy.
01:01:53.599 --> 01:02:00.559
Why don't we, you know, demystify, you know, unmuddy that place so that you can you can see things a little clearer?
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:05.679
And what does that look like to hold space in that messy journey for you to get to that step?
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:15.679
And I think I find that really empowering, not only for the individual, but also for me, because I'm constantly reminded that we all possess that capability within us.
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:20.480
And it just takes a bit of practice and support to get us there.
01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:26.559
And that's a wonderful um concept to know that you're able to do that yourself.
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:30.719
But it's through collaboration that we get to really expand to our fullest.
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.159
And um, yeah, I find that beautiful.
01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:41.599
That is that's a really powerful way of looking at what people do as coaches.
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:54.079
And uh the fact that you're able to hold that so uh forward in the way your philosophy and your approach works, I think can only benefit others in the world.
01:02:54.239 --> 01:02:59.679
Uh everybody needs more and more of this sort of perspective in their life, as far as I'm concerned.
01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.239
But I'm a little bit biased being a fellow coach.
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:03.920
Um yeah.
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:16.480
So now that you're here, you know, the journey that you've been on, if you were to look back and see how the dots connect in the rear view, because often they are a lot clearer in the rear view.
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:22.960
What do you what conclusions would you have drawn about your own journey of figuring out your path?
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.079
And I know where you're still on it, I'm still on it, we're all still on it.
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:28.559
So there's no answer to when the path is over.
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:47.440
Um, but when you look back and you you see the dots connecting or the major forks in the road, one of the things we end up doing as coaches is observing others and stepping back and seeing where patterns and uh and sort of things intersect and connect and helping others see that.
01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.360
Have you ever done that exercise for yourself?
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:58.639
If you were to look back at your own path, where it's gone, how it connected in interesting and unique ways, and how it might continue to evolve going forward.
01:03:58.880 --> 01:03:59.679
What do you see?
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:13.039
Yeah, I see, I see uh, you know, a younger version of me that has gone through a lot of changes, uh, maybe not of my own accord, right?
01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:23.119
You know, I've had to move different countries, I've had to be in different spaces that didn't make me feel like I was the norm or like kind of that mainstream.
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:50.559
Um, and having that outsider's point of view allowed me to create deeper empathy and for me to double check what norm is to begin with and whether or not we can whether or not we can kind of mold into better versions of what we could be as humans, as you know, you know, organizations and and such kind of bodies of of you know companies.
01:04:50.800 --> 01:05:05.119
And yeah, I think looking back, it feels clearer to me, just based on what I've been sharing with you, Len, but I do think I had to go through the trials and tribulations to get here.
01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:08.159
Um to to fortify that.
01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:13.679
I think sometimes it takes more than just, okay, I'm gonna dust myself and try this out.
01:05:13.840 --> 01:05:20.960
Sometimes it takes, you know, blood, sweat, and tears to know that, like, wow, like that was not in alignment with who I was.
01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:22.880
Now I know what not to seek.
01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:24.159
Let me try this.
01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:26.320
Okay, that's not it either.
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:41.679
And I think the biggest miss that I see with people who can't get to faster alignment is giving themselves the grace to be experimental and to not be afraid of the unknown.
01:05:41.840 --> 01:05:48.079
And thankfully for me, I had to be flexible by default, even when I was, you know, younger.
01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:52.079
And I think that really helped me understand that not nothing is permanent.
01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:56.639
There's a sense of impermanence that I constantly feel.
01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.760
Um, and I just embrace it in a lot of ways.
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:08.639
And I think that allows me to just know that, you know, there are things that'll work out and there are things that I won't.
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:12.719
And there's a better understanding of things that I can control and the things that I can't control.
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:24.239
And the more the less I focused on the external validation, the external cues, the things that I couldn't control, and really thought about what I can do at this moment in time.
01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:26.320
And that's the only thing that I can control.
01:06:26.639 --> 01:06:30.800
The more liberated I felt, and the more I was able to express myself better.
01:06:31.039 --> 01:06:42.559
And I would hope to kind of, I don't know, I would hope that, you know, that becomes more of a norm in other people's lives too, to give themselves a chance to make mistakes, but also learn from them.
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:45.440
And it'll get you closer to where you need to be.
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:47.599
What a gift.
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:48.480
What a gift.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:48.880
Yeah.
01:06:49.360 --> 01:07:01.280
I think that impermanence uh realization that you experience so young in your life as stressful and awful as that can be when we're young.
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:34.239
It trained a muscle in you, the way your mom trained you to practice the violin, that we are not in control of everything, that we often choose the clearer path to lesser goals in trying to figure out how to control things, in trying to create a sense of stability through control and controlling outcomes and actions or through actions, and learning to just let go, to be okay with knowing that the only path is change.
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:42.880
And it's uh the learning is in the experimenting, the learning is in the forward failure, the learning is in the risk taking.
01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:55.440
And there is no formula for where we end up on the other side of this path, uh, where we are happiest and healthiest and living our best lives.
01:07:56.639 --> 01:08:04.000
That is why I call it the steeper path to greater goals, because it's hard and it's it's unpredictable and awful.
01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:07.519
And it feels like you've walked it and continue to walk it.
01:08:09.039 --> 01:08:09.679
Yeah.
01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:13.920
When it starts getting too comfortable, that's when I actually question it.
01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:14.639
Yep.
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:16.159
And that's when we all should.
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:19.119
Like, hmm.
01:08:20.239 --> 01:08:24.319
Uh what's the next surprise that I'm looking for?
01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:25.039
Yeah.
01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:25.920
Yeah.
01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:27.199
Exactly.
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:30.000
Yeah, I ask myself that all the time.
01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:38.000
Are you um where do you think the next stage of the path goes for you, given where you're at right now?
01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:42.239
Is coaching something you think is is another step on the way?
01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:47.199
Is it something you think you'll lean into forever or probably not?
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:50.239
Yeah, hard to say.
01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:58.560
Um I but I do think this is the medium in which I can really help others, and I am so grateful for it.
01:08:58.640 --> 01:09:07.520
And so I definitely see this as if I'm able to do this until I'm in my 80s, like I would be really grateful.
01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:16.560
Um, but I also know that I'm a multi-passionate being, and there's different ways that I can support others, but also express myself.
01:09:16.640 --> 01:09:21.119
And so I don't know what that really entails, but I'm excited to explore that side too.
01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:22.079
Yeah.
01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:40.720
I'm a big believer that once we attain a reasonable sense of self-knowledge and we're able to see our true nature, our gifts, our strengths, our abilities, our temperament, and to accept it, to be able to look at ourselves and go, okay, this is who I am.
01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:46.479
I I've tried to repackage myself and shape it and influence it in different ways.
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:50.720
And I always come back to this place that looks a lot more like this.
01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:58.880
And once we're able to see that, that is the beginning of this form of self-knowledge that it doesn't have to leave us.
01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:01.439
So we can change the title of our job.
01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:04.399
We can repackage ourselves as whatever.
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:23.920
But that nature of being, in your case, creative, helpful, compassionate, empathetic, thoughtful, listening, uh, caring, all these things that have sort of made you great at what you're doing today, they're a vocation.
01:10:24.079 --> 01:10:25.600
They're a part of you.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:27.520
They're a way of being in the world.
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:29.760
They're not a job title.
01:10:30.319 --> 01:10:41.760
And I think, you know, like you were saying, you could repackage it a million different ways, but you'll probably always be Janet Lee, which is the person you've become today, right?
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:48.560
The the the job title is irrelevant, but the person comes with it no matter what the job title is.
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:49.600
Sure.
01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:51.359
Yeah, I definitely see that.
01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:52.800
Um yeah.
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:54.960
Does that resonate for you too, Len?
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:56.239
Oh, yeah, 100%.
01:10:56.960 --> 01:11:13.359
Um it's you know, once you accept and learn to realize like this is the my way of being in the world, um, and this is what I come with as a package, it's just sort of like, okay, I can reapply this, I can do this to it no matter where I show up.
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:26.000
And, you know, just like you, I don't know what the future may hold in terms of permutations of what my job title is or how my business looks or whatever.
01:11:26.319 --> 01:11:34.239
But I know the same core set of skills, attributes, and abilities um will power me forward.
01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:36.079
And I lean into those, right?
01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:38.239
I'm no longer afraid of them.
01:11:38.479 --> 01:11:48.239
Um and I think that's where our greatest, you know, success starts to kick in is when we're just able to lean into our strengths this way.
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:48.960
Yeah.
01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:51.199
And be uh be excited about it.
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:52.159
100%.
01:11:52.880 --> 01:11:59.439
I think that reminds me, I think some part of me have always had this feeling of, let me prove you wrong.
01:11:59.600 --> 01:11:59.760
Right.
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:01.439
I love challenges, right?
01:12:01.600 --> 01:12:06.319
So I did things to prove people wrong that I could do these things.
01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:11.199
And now I'm in the right, I'm in a different mindset of let me show you who I am.
01:12:11.520 --> 01:12:12.159
Yes.
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:13.279
Well, that's okay.
01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:20.319
And I think that was such a fundamental difference of let me prove you wrong, to let me show you who I am.
01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:24.640
And and being okay being seen.
01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:32.319
And I think that was a fundamental shift that allowed me to be the person that I am today and to do the work that I love doing.
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:33.760
I love that.
01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:34.479
Yeah.
01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:40.239
That's that's when I think that's when it all starts to open up before you.
01:12:40.399 --> 01:12:49.359
Um, is when you're able to be okay being seen and to move away from the things you could do to the things you should do.
01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:59.520
And this is a big distinction for me because I've like yourself had a career that has gone in a lot of different places using a lot of different skills.
01:12:59.840 --> 01:13:05.600
And most of the time I was just trying to prove it to myself or others that I could do it.
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:21.520
And I could do it, and I did it for a while, but then the inertia started to build and it started to be like carrying a weight, and it wasn't something that I loved, but I sort of ticked the box and said, Okay, I now proved I could do this.
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:22.720
Look at me.
01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:29.680
And then you're like, oh shit, now I have to keep doing it because I proved I could, but I kind of went off the treadmill now.
01:13:29.840 --> 01:13:31.279
You know, I'm I'm exhausted.
01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:33.199
Can we stop running so hard?
01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:34.720
You know what I mean?
01:13:35.039 --> 01:13:36.399
Yes, yeah.
01:13:36.720 --> 01:13:41.279
So that distinction of should versus could is super, super powerful.
01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:44.159
Um yeah.
01:13:44.399 --> 01:13:53.840
Now that you're here and you know that there's the things you could do and there's the things you should do, you're gonna start leaning more and more into those shoulds.
01:13:54.079 --> 01:13:57.039
And I think that's when you step into your power.
01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:04.560
Yeah, and also knowing that the timing is not within your control.
01:14:04.880 --> 01:14:06.880
I think that was also a big lesson for me.
01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:12.800
You know, if you think you'll get to your place in a year, well, the universe might have other plans.
01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:22.800
Maybe it takes three years, maybe it takes 10 years, but I think you have to just um trust the process how however may cliche that may sound.
01:14:23.039 --> 01:14:32.720
Um Yeah, I think we try to predict so many things in our lives and not forget that sometimes there's pleasant surprises.
01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:39.840
And that coming from me, that is pretty um a big deal because I love prediction.
01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:42.000
I love like knowing what's to come.
01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:49.199
I don't like surprises in my life, but I think that is something that I'm learning to celebrate as well.
01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:51.119
Yeah.
01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:55.840
I I mean, human beings in general, we don't like feeling out of control.
01:14:56.479 --> 01:14:59.760
We don't like on we don't like change, right?
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:02.960
Change is bad for survival, right?
01:15:04.079 --> 01:15:11.279
All living beings need to survive, and so the more predictable everything can be, the more it feels like we have safety.
01:15:12.159 --> 01:15:16.880
But then there's this constant duality of safety versus stagnation.
01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:22.079
And when we become safe, then we also become stagnant sometimes.
01:15:22.239 --> 01:15:26.960
And we become stagnant, we stop growing, and then everything starts to atrophy back the other way.
01:15:27.359 --> 01:15:47.600
And so it's this constant balance of of duality, of of you know, um taking action and letting go of holding something as an outcome that you want to see, but realizing you can't actually control when that outcome comes about.
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:56.399
And being comfortable with that, you know, just like I'm doing this podcast with you right now.
01:15:56.560 --> 01:16:02.479
Is is is there a grand business plan for how this is gonna benefit me one day?
01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:03.039
No.
01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:06.960
It's just doing it because I love talking to people with interesting stories.
01:16:07.279 --> 01:16:08.399
Will it pay off?
01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:08.960
Don't know.
01:16:09.119 --> 01:16:10.479
Will it be interesting to somebody?
01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:11.199
I hope so.
01:16:11.359 --> 01:16:12.479
I hope it helps somebody.
01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:19.600
I hope somebody listens to this conversation and sees themselves in you and goes, yeah, okay, I learned something, I can keep going.
01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:25.359
Um but it's if we don't do these things, then nothing happens.
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:28.079
There is no chance of a different outcome.
01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:29.520
Yeah.
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:38.800
And I think I I really do believe, Len, that when you do things with intention and care for others, there's no way you lose.
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:48.640
In the long run, there's no way that you can lose in any shape or form because you're doing with the love and the care of others.
01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:57.039
And it's a very while it may look like a self-fish thing, it's a very selfless thing at the end of the day.
01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:03.920
And yes, you're creating your own brand, you're creating your podcast, but it is to serve others and to inspire others.
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:06.319
And I think there's there's no losing in that.
01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:07.199
No.
01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:08.319
Yeah.
01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:32.239
I mean, for me, this is purely an act of um wanting to give people examples to look to of other paths and other people, because we only celebrate in the in the mass media and in the in the culture in general the extreme example outliers, right?
01:17:32.399 --> 01:17:43.119
The millionaires, the billionaires, the people who won the game, the people who, you know, or the star everything, the star athlete, the star player, the star whatever, the star business person.
01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:44.640
It's always the extremes.
01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:47.840
And most of us are not able to live in that world.
01:17:48.000 --> 01:17:55.119
We don't have that possibility because it's it's just such a small number of people who are the winner.
01:17:55.359 --> 01:18:01.439
But that doesn't mean life isn't worth living, or careers aren't worth building, or passions aren't worth following.
01:18:01.520 --> 01:18:13.279
And so the more stories that we can present of lives well lived, done a different way, I think it gives people a chance to actually feel like that could be me.
01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:15.359
Like it's okay not to be the winner.
01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:21.520
It's okay to be great at who I am and what I what I care about personally.
01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:23.199
Yeah.
01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:27.600
And and tailoring what winning means to you, I mean, that is empowerment.
01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:28.479
Yes.
01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:31.760
How do you go from a standard winning, whatever that is?
01:18:31.840 --> 01:18:35.680
I don't even know, actually, frankly, what that is.
01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:37.359
Uh yeah.
01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:42.079
It it's it's I'm more convinced than ever that it's very unique to ourselves.
01:18:42.239 --> 01:18:55.119
And that when we look to other people for that definition, because I can't tell you, maybe you have the same stories, but I know a lot of people who are worth a lot of money, who are very unhappy and have won.
01:18:55.359 --> 01:19:01.119
And they kind of come back to me at some point and go, okay, I got what I wanted.
01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:02.960
Why doesn't it feel good?
01:19:03.199 --> 01:19:07.359
And it's like, have you ever thought whether that thing mattered to you or not?
01:19:07.520 --> 01:19:09.680
Or did it just matter to everybody else?
01:19:10.720 --> 01:19:11.119
Right?
01:19:11.439 --> 01:19:14.319
Did it actually matter to you to win on these terms?
01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:16.800
Or did it matter to everybody else?
01:19:17.199 --> 01:19:20.000
And that's usually where the root of the sadness lies.
01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:21.439
Is that no, it didn't.
01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:24.560
It was an external definition that was given to them.
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:31.199
Um, and they achieved, achieved, achieved, and then still didn't feel a sense of accomplishment.
01:19:31.439 --> 01:19:33.600
And it's it's just very personal.
01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:35.439
It wasn't to their definition.
01:19:36.079 --> 01:19:36.560
Sure.
01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:38.079
Yeah.
01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:45.840
Um sounds like a high-class problem, and it is, but it's also still a very real problem.
01:19:48.720 --> 01:19:49.359
Yeah.
01:19:49.760 --> 01:19:57.359
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with me and for helping others see that there is another path.
01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:17.520
Um that, you know, no matter where you start off, no matter where you come from, no matter what your background is, no matter what obstacles you've been through, um paying attention to the signs along the way of who you are and listening to those voices and looking for those cues of those intersections can lead you to some amazing places.
01:20:17.600 --> 01:20:22.720
And I'm more confident than ever that you're just beginning to unfold in that journey.
01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:24.960
So thank you for sharing that story with me.
01:20:25.439 --> 01:20:26.000
Of course.
01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:27.680
Thank you so much for having me, Len.
01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:32.399
And yeah, it was really fun to go down the memory lane with you.
01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:33.119
Yeah.
01:20:33.439 --> 01:20:35.600
No, I think there's wisdom in memories.
01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:37.279
One last question for you.
01:20:37.680 --> 01:20:38.079
Sure.
01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:47.439
What have you changed your mind about when it comes to life and success from when you were younger, when you started on this journey in your 20s?
01:20:47.760 --> 01:20:48.319
Ooh.
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:51.279
Great question.
01:20:51.920 --> 01:21:03.119
Um I think I've confused excitement with peace, and vice versa.
01:21:03.359 --> 01:21:15.119
I think I was very much um, I think my I wanted my life to be always exciting, which meant constant achievements, constant accolades.
01:21:15.439 --> 01:21:17.119
Um, the highs have to be high.
01:21:17.359 --> 01:21:19.119
It has to be fireworks.
01:21:19.439 --> 01:21:30.000
Um, but I think the older I get, the more I realize that alignment equals peace, and peace comes with profound knowledge that those are they come and go.
01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:54.000
I think excitement comes and goes in your life, but the stability and the peacefulness that you have, the inner peace that you get to hold is the greatest achievement of them all because that means you've gone through different iterations and you've come to peace to know who you are, your place in the world, and for you to know how to, I guess, give back in your unique way.
01:21:54.159 --> 01:22:00.640
And I think that's the most, you know, I think that's the most blessed feeling that you can get as a as a person.
01:22:01.680 --> 01:22:02.479
I love that.
01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:03.439
Thank you.
01:22:04.640 --> 01:22:05.760
Thanks again.
01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:10.640
Appreciate you telling your story today and sharing that little bit of wisdom with us.
01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:12.399
Thank you.
01:22:37.680 --> 01:22:40.399
Each step I take brings strength anew.
01:22:41.039 --> 01:22:47.840
Challenges faced, resilience grow a journey to which these wears all the time.