Selecting Disciples

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Hello, patacumens, and welcome once again to the Patachesis Podcast,
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a podcast about what Christians believe and why it matters.
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I'm Brett Maddox, and once again, we're joined by your very best
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friends, Allen Kaysen and Jim Morrow. How are you doing,
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guys? I'm doing fantastic. How are you guys?
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Man, I'm good. I got a good cup of coffee and some good friends,
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and we're going to talk about some of our favorite things in the world.
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Oh, that's right. Diet Coke. Was there any doubt? Was there any
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doubt? No doubt. No doubt. There's just, we don't need too much fluff
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here at the beginning, but I do have a little bit of beef and that's
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Diet Coke over Coke Zero. We're gonna have to take
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a poll in, in our, our Pot of Cumin community on
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this one. No. Yeah. Coke Zero is just fake Coke. The, the right answer,
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the ortho— the orthodox answer is Coke Zero.
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Okay. That's the orthodox answer. The Aryan
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answer. Have you ever met a, have you ever met a, um, um, lazy drinker
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of Diet Coke? I don't think so. People who drink Diet Coke, they work hard.
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I'm just telling you. Oh, is that right? I think I just got called lazy.
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That's an empirical study. I have no,
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uh, com— I can't come back on that. So that's true. Well, I mean,
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it's, there's really nothing to say to that. That's true. For a lot of reasons.
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Right. So all I can say is the,
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uh, the 4th century heretic Arius drank Diet Coke. So that's where,
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uh, that's where we are. At least that's what ChatGPT told me.
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That, that's exactly right. Yes. All right, guys, do you get to
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choose your friends? Ooh.
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That's what I tell my children. Unfortunately, I have.
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Unfortunately. So today we're talking about choosing.
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That segue was magnifique. Thank you.
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I appreciate that. Today, if nothing else,
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I'm a master at transitioning things here. So we're going to talk about choosing
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and Jesus choosing his disciples.
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And some of you in the Wesleyan world
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who is listening to this, your little Calvinistic red
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flags are going to go up as choosing, choosing, predestination.
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That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about how we select
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those that we are wanting to pour into
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to disciple as we continue this series on disciple-making.
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And so Jesus certainly did choose those who
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he called to follow him. We know he chose 12,
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and so we're going to be looking at that, and we're going to be looking
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at some scripture today dealing with that. And what it meant for
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Jesus to choose and what it means for us as well.
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So, Allen, I'm going to turn it over to you, just kind of do a
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no-look pass for you to take us into the Word
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and where we need to go from this. All right,
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good deal. So if you're following along with the— our main source
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is The Master Plan of Evangelism. And so the first
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chapter is called Selection, and we're going to look at— I'm
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going to read Luke 6, and this is when Jesus actually set
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apart the 12. And we're going to be Luke
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6:12 through— we'll go—
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well, let's do the rest of the book. Yeah, let's just do the whole book.
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We'll do 12 and 13. On one of those days,
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Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray and spent the night
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praying to God. When morning came, he called his
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disciples to him and chose 12 of them whom
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he also designated apostles.
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And so there was this intentionality, this intentional choice to set apart
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12 that Jesus would pour into. Now this,
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what we realize when you put the timeline of Jesus together is this
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is probably about a year and a half into his ministry and
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that he had already invited
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at least 6 to follow
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him in some way, shape, or form to do life together.
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And then there's like half the
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disciples, we don't really get that call story of them, but the main point of
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this episode is that Jesus intentionally, the Scripture
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says he spent all night praying, choosing 12, because we
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know there were crowds, we know there are other people around him, other followers,
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but he chose 12 to intentionally pour into. And so
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it's the idea that selection
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is not only Jesus' first step,
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but it may be the most important step,
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and our first step and our most important step in choosing people
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who we are going to come alongside. And so Jesus,
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I don't know about you guys, I've never spent all night praying.
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Right. Now, I have fallen asleep praying and
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dreamt that I prayed all night. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, I've done that.
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Yeah, yeah. Hey, a quick little sidebar
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discussion here because you said something that might confuse some of our listeners,
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which is not the first time that's happened coming from Allen, just to say.
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It is, you said that the calling of the 12,
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the full 12, probably happened a year and a half into his
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ministry. We probably never have thought about that, and it brings up a good
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thing that maybe we need to spend a few minutes on, and it's how to
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look at time when we read Scripture.
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A good example of this is Paul. Paul,
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when he has the road to Damascus experience in
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Acts chapter 9, by Acts 12,
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13, he's on his missionary journeys.
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When you read it just like that, it looks like maybe about 2 weeks after
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his conversion to his
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missionary journeys, but in reality, he talks about a decade
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and a half period between coming to
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know Jesus as Savior and Lord and
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then moving out and doing ministry. So when
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we read Scripture, we have to take in mind
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that if the Scripture is being written after the fact, after these things
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have occurred, and that the time can seem like it's
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a lot sooner than it actually is. Yeah, and you got to remember they
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had limited resources to write on. They were trying to make
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use of every page of documents
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that they were working with, and so they didn't have time to deal with any
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fluff, so they were just moving on to the next thing.
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And so you kind of have to read all 4
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Gospels to kind of piece together the ministry of Jesus.
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Yeah, and that time brings up a really fascinating point.
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There's a couple things here that are so good that could also cause a
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little bit of tension. So we're talking about making disciples,
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cultivating disciples who will then become disciples, and time
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is tough when we just, we really like to
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move things now. Yes, right.
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And the sense of, hey, I need some quick wins. I want to do the
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thing that will give me either the quick effectiveness or the feeling of
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quick effectiveness, or if we're honest as pastors and ministry
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leaders, that quick hit of dopamine of having done
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a good job. However, discipleship kind of presses against that,
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and even in the selection of who
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Jesus will bring alongside of him, and we'll talk about why he chose
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and how he chose in a minute, but it's time in
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life that he has already spent with the large crowd. So he's got
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a lot of followers and
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disciples, according to the passage, and we
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know there are crowds with him, and even then he's spending time
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in prayer with the Father and doing it.
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It's not a fast process.
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It reminds me of this. So y'all like to bake cookies at the
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house, or at least eat fresh-baked cookies? Yes. I like them. All of it.
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Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you used to have to make 'em by scratch,
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right? And then, and then you could get the tubes of cookie dough and
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then you could cut 'em. But now you don't even have to get the tubes
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of cookie dough. You don't have to cut it. They come in pre-cut layers and
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those are good. But I'll tell you, there's nothing like a homemade fresh
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cookie. Yes. And it takes time. I love how we incorporated cookies
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and discipleship and I just am, and I'm, I'm here for it.
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I'm here for it. I am too. I am too. Let's go, let's go for
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the homemade cookies. Yeah. So Jesus spent a year and
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a half. I mean, so yeah, he spent all night praying to choose these 12,
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but you could also say he also spent a year and a half and a
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night, a year and a half and a night, a year and a half and
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a night, right? Selecting these 12.
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And I don't think we really think about it that way. I think we're—
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I have been stuck for most of my ministry, not here recently,
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but like, hey, let's look for the next thing. Like, let me— what's the next
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6-week study I can do? What's the next— thing I can do,
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but really intentionally praying and thinking and asking
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the Lord to send people to pour
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into, I don't know, it's a new thing. Yes,
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it's really, in our kind of modern stance,
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it's really inefficient to do that, right? Like the crowds,
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getting the message to the crowds, the masses is the most efficient way of getting
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the gospel out, at least we think. And there is certainly
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something to be said about even Scripture talks about the movement from
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the 500 to the 70 or 72 to the 12 to the 3.
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So we see this in the Scriptures,
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but Scripture will point out
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that the effectiveness of the Gospel going out and
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being propagated, sent out and
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spreading, yes, it works in the crowds, but it
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also works very efficiently, I mean effectively,
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in the training up of the few so that they can go train
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up a few so that they can go train up a few, and then you
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move into this exponential growth through
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that. So you almost have to get out of this modern idea of efficiency when
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you're looking at this, I think. Yeah, I think you
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do too. As we're looking at it, part of
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the conversation, this conversation about discipleship
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is happening a lot. Let me read. I sent you guys an article last
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night. This is by Alan Hirsch. If y'all don't know Alan Hirsch out there,
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you should really take a look at him. He's a missiologist, great church leader.
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He's got a Substack now. I'm just going to note one or
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two little parts here. I'll link to this article,
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too. Yeah, in the show notes. We haven't done
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that in a while. I know, I missed it. I missed it. I'm just going
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to read this quote. Hirsch says, there is a strange and wonderful
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math at the heart of the gospel. One man lived, died,
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and rose and ascended, and somehow his plan for reaching 6
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continents and every generation since rests on the multiplication
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of himself into millions of ordinary lives.
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That's the scandal and genius of discipleship. Jesus never
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intended to remain a solitary figure fixed in first-century Israel.
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His intention was always expansion, to fill the homes,
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the streets, factory floors, school hallways, and boardrooms with
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living, breathing versions of himself carried in the bodies of
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people who bear his name.
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And that's just the beginning. And so this idea,
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I can mass communicate and get people,
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but What if I'm
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not transferring information, but I'm helping Jesus be born in people
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and then they're all going out? That's how it happened. That's what
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Coleman is talking about in The Master Plan of Evangelism.
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And so one of the things that Hirsch talks about to help with
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this conversation we're talking about is, hey, look, remember discipleship is not
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information transfer, but it's the formation
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of Christ in a person. And then discipleship becomes the
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main engine of the church not a department of the church.
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And so that just kind of helps illuminate what we're talking about and why we're
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talking about selection. Yeah, that's such a good line, by the way.
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It becomes the main engine versus just a department.
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If you'll give me a second to edit it, I can make it look like
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I wrote it. So I've been
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thinking about this, like, so the idea of selection, at least
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with Jesus, was Fewer,
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not more. Yes, he ministered to the masses,
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but he really spent time with a few people,
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which is, I think, contrary to how most of our churches operate. We attend to
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the masses on Sunday morning, right? And that's where a lot of our
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time and our energy goes into.
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And Coleman speaks to this. Jesus didn't ignore the masses.
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We got the feeding of the 5,000. We got all these healings and miracles.
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I mean, he didn't ignore the masses, but But he spent most of
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his time on a few. And when I got to thinking about, this is the
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way God has operated from the beginning. I mean, you think about Adam and Eve,
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you got 2 people, the whole world's created.
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One of the stories I love is Gideon in
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Judges, and Gideon's got this big army that he's amassing,
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and God dwindles that army. Was it down to 300?
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He cut thousands out of the army. Got 300
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and they marched around Jericho and they didn't do a thing. Or not Jericho,
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but the other place. It was the other
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place. Yeah. It was the other place. My bad. Yeah. It was the other place.
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Yeah. I mean, yeah, we know what you're talking
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about. And then there's the passage in Matthew. So Matthew
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18, you ever use this verse where 2 or 3 are gathered
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in his name? I am there. I am there with you.
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Makes me feel so good. It's an excuse for a rainy Sunday. Exactly. That's what
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we— it's like a consolation prize. Oh gosh. Oh well, nobody showed up,
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but God's with us. Tell me the truth, Allen. What if it actually
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is like, that's the way God wants to operate? Um,
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like, um,
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fewer is where the power's at. Fewer is where,
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um, the money's at. Like that. What if that's the way
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God intended? It's not a consolation. It's like, okay.
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Yeah, so I think when we think about it,
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selection and pouring into just a few people,
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this is the way God has operated. This is the way God
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wants to operate. So I think one of the things
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that comes up then is what was Jesus looking for when he
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was selecting his disciples and what should we
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be looking for? I've said before,
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just quoting our friend Tony Miltenberger,
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of the Follow— is it Follow to Lead podcast? Is that what it's,
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uh, is that what it's called? The Follow to Lead. You should give that podcast
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a listen to. We're giving a shout out to our friend Tony.
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Um, and a like, subscribe. Yeah, and a like, subscribe.
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Although, when was the last time he gave a shout out to the Podocasis podcast?
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Yeah, that's certainly his fault. That is absolutely his fault. Yeah, well,
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fair. It wasn't that we weren't here for 2 years. Yeah, well, that's true.
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You know what, I retract that statement. We love you, Tony. We love you,
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Tony. Anyway, he always talked about looking for FAT
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Christians to invite in: faithful, available, and teachable.
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Okay. Yeah, we just offended a whole bunch of people,
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but it's also my favorite little acronym too.
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Well, the Bible says the fat belongs to the Lord, so. It does. Amen.
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Exactly. Yes, in Leviticus.
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But you can also use the FAITH and add to that intentional
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and humble. And so the idea here is we're looking for
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followers followers of Jesus, people who are
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Christians, but who are ready to go
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deeper, to become stronger, and to themselves
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become multipliers and go through this intentional
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process. There were a lot of people who loved
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Jesus in Jesus' day, but there were only a few who
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would actually follow him all the way to the end.
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And so, well, let me ask it, put it this way. Is it
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right for us today to choose people?
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How do we keep that from becoming like this,
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you got this primary class of Christians over here,
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and then you got this secondary class of Christians over there when the pastor or
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the disciple leader is choosing who they want
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to go through these processes? I think that's gonna be one of the first tensions
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that comes up maybe in people's minds, and you might have some people
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feel that way. But here's a reminder, no choice is
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still a choice. And so you only—
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here's a good Lord of the Rings quote, there's only so much butter
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to spread over the bread, right? And so if you are not
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choosing to invest anywhere, you're only putting a little
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bit in everywhere. And the other fact is,
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we're not talking about classes of Christians in terms of hierarchy
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of Christians. We're actually talking about deeper and multiplying.
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And so it does take wisdom. So like for me, for us,
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we are pastors of churches and we are seeking to make disciples,
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but we also, as soon as the Lord allows people to start becoming
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disciple-makers under us and with us, that's a little easier.
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But It's ultimately, you've got to think 10 years down the
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road. 10 years down the road, did I preach 10
18:09.545 --> 18:12.614
years' worth of good sermons and make a couple people happy and maybe a couple
18:13.114 --> 18:16.732
people accidentally really got deep with Jesus? Or am I willing to put
18:17.232 --> 18:20.830
in the work for the long haul to leave behind or to have a decade
18:21.330 --> 18:25.024
behind of people who are truly committed to making disciples?
18:25.330 --> 18:28.696
Because if everybody's only coming to the church to make disciples or to
18:28.729 --> 18:32.114
be Christian, one, they're only getting half of the meal,
18:33.761 --> 18:37.040
and then two, where are the people on this
18:37.153 --> 18:40.418
street and in that school and in that business and in that home and in
18:40.483 --> 18:43.268
that part of the place that's going to go out into another neck of the
18:43.300 --> 18:46.279
woods? Where are they? How are those people going to become disciples?
18:47.000 --> 18:50.669
So one of the things— I'll stop here. I'm talking a lot. It's early
18:51.169 --> 18:54.886
morning for me, but you might get that objection from church
18:55.143 --> 18:58.106
members. And I understand the objection,
18:58.877 --> 19:02.990
but I also think if they can come alongside and hear the
19:03.490 --> 19:07.086
point, then they're teachable. But you can't cater
19:07.648 --> 19:12.226
your mission to the
19:12.726 --> 19:15.727
harshest criticism. That's good. Yeah,
19:15.743 --> 19:18.506
that's good. And so you have, you'll have to be able to say, look,
19:18.715 --> 19:21.397
I understand what you're saying. This is what we're going to do. And I'm sorry,
19:22.038 --> 19:23.848
I hate this. I'm sorry you feel that way.
19:26.330 --> 19:28.659
Because otherwise you're gonna do nothing. Right.
19:29.597 --> 19:33.576
I think that's great. That's great. Yeah, no, I think that's
19:33.867 --> 19:34.595
absolutely great.
19:39.251 --> 19:43.646
And I think that struggle we're talking about is really for pastors. I think laity,
19:43.823 --> 19:45.658
if they get on fire, I mean, dadgummit,
19:47.058 --> 19:50.376
whoever the Lord sends into your life, go pour into them, do it. Um,
19:50.456 --> 19:53.757
I like, I like that. I think the real struggle we're talking about is for
19:54.257 --> 19:57.010
pastors who are trying to shepherd a whole congregation,
19:57.747 --> 20:00.839
and we feel like we're sliding some if we choose, um,
20:01.128 --> 20:04.573
to choose others. Um, but I mean, if we're called to be
20:05.073 --> 20:07.954
like Jesus, Jesus, that's exactly what Jesus did.
20:08.643 --> 20:11.768
He, he ministered to the masses, but he poured himself into a few,
20:12.328 --> 20:15.854
and, um, we're just following his model. I like that. Let's,
20:15.870 --> 20:18.307
let's turn the attention then Let's assume,
20:19.061 --> 20:22.512
because we have a lot of friends who listen to the podcast and who will
20:22.672 --> 20:26.347
begin listening again, who serve the Lord in
20:26.379 --> 20:29.557
their own life that are lay members of churches. Let's turn our attention
20:29.589 --> 20:32.847
there. So let's assume that you're talking to somebody
20:33.425 --> 20:37.565
who wants to begin making disciples and they're in this part. Talk to them about
20:37.678 --> 20:41.305
that. Yeah, no, so I would absolutely— I think the first step
20:41.805 --> 20:43.423
is to pray. I mean, we're talking about selection.
20:44.781 --> 20:48.537
The first step is to begin praying and asking the Lord to
20:49.037 --> 20:51.907
send people into your life to pour into one-on-one,
20:53.500 --> 20:56.274
triad, 4 to 6 people, something like that.
20:56.652 --> 21:00.087
Keep it small. And to use faithful,
21:00.103 --> 21:03.976
available, intentional, teachable, humble. Are they
21:04.476 --> 21:07.348
faithful? Are they following Jesus? Are they available? Do they have the time? I think
21:07.848 --> 21:11.123
availability is the number one issue in our world today. We got a lot
21:11.623 --> 21:15.036
of people who are faithful and intentional and teachable and humble, but they will tell
21:15.536 --> 21:17.762
you they don't have the time. Now, everybody's got the same amount of time,
21:17.778 --> 21:21.322
but they're just not making the time. So are they available?
21:22.252 --> 21:25.315
Are they intentional? Will they take the
21:25.815 --> 21:29.516
time? Will they pour into it? Are they teachable? Are they going to get defensive
21:29.805 --> 21:33.734
when you try to correct them? And if so,
21:34.055 --> 21:36.749
then they're not somebody you need to pour into right now. And then are they
21:36.765 --> 21:40.351
humble? Um, so pray. I believe that that is a prayer.
21:40.448 --> 21:43.510
I, I know without a doubt that is a prayer the Lord will answer.
21:43.977 --> 21:46.971
And I'll just give you a real quick story. Um, I, I was, I was
21:47.100 --> 21:50.910
forming a group about a year or so ago, praying over a couple
21:51.410 --> 21:55.123
guys, and I had some time one, one day after lunch, and I texted
21:55.623 --> 21:57.802
this, this friend of mine. I was like, hey man, you got some, you got
21:58.302 --> 22:00.594
some time? He works. And so I was— he said, yeah, come on over.
22:01.660 --> 22:04.172
So I went to his place of business. I walked in. I said, I know
22:04.188 --> 22:08.828
this is weird. I said, but I have been praying Uh,
22:09.455 --> 22:12.946
for you that, uh, in your name. I've been praying for people
22:12.994 --> 22:16.034
to pour into, and your name came to my mind and my heart.
22:16.758 --> 22:19.672
And, um, I would like to, to walk with you,
22:19.835 --> 22:23.435
um, you know, to help you follow Jesus and help both of
22:23.935 --> 22:27.474
us follow Jesus. And he looked at me and he said,
22:27.815 --> 22:31.042
I have been asking the Lord for direction,
22:32.355 --> 22:35.736
and here you walk in. So it's not just,
22:35.816 --> 22:39.730
as we pray over people to pour into, the Lord's
22:40.230 --> 22:43.001
already working, right? We have to remember the Lord's already— we think he's only working
22:43.034 --> 22:45.680
in our lives, but he's working in everybody else's lives. Wait, what?
22:46.305 --> 22:49.481
Right? I know. So pray.
22:49.593 --> 22:52.785
I mean, that's the whole idea of selection. That's the first step. And that is
22:52.881 --> 22:55.864
the most important step. And if you skip this step,
22:56.008 --> 22:59.280
then you may have people in your group, but they
22:59.296 --> 23:02.423
may not end up multiplying. So you want to ask the Lord to put the
23:02.923 --> 23:06.501
right people together. Yeah. And I would also say, and there's a little bit,
23:06.614 --> 23:10.500
I say controversy on this, but I don't think it really has to be.
23:11.897 --> 23:16.057
It is, which is the right way? Put together a group or do one-on-one,
23:16.153 --> 23:19.092
or how do you do this? And I say, yes,
23:19.526 --> 23:23.075
it's all valid. It all depends upon the
23:23.139 --> 23:26.640
context of your church, of your setting, of your
23:26.849 --> 23:28.423
business, whatever it is you're doing.
23:30.699 --> 23:33.390
Alan, I know, does a lot of kind of small group stuff.
23:34.913 --> 23:38.220
I do primarily one-on-one mentoring.
23:38.560 --> 23:41.338
And so Alan can probably get,
23:42.677 --> 23:46.840
if he does 3 groups of, let's say, 3, that's 9 to 12 people that
23:46.873 --> 23:50.666
he can really hit at any one time. Whereas me, I'm hitting around the 6
23:51.166 --> 23:54.541
to 8 mark just for my time. But for my context,
23:54.558 --> 23:58.565
the one-on-one kind of apprenticeship model, of doing this
23:59.655 --> 24:03.406
has been what fits most naturally for my
24:03.906 --> 24:06.115
people. I also do this.
24:07.349 --> 24:10.971
I give permission when I go to something. So I'm praying, I write down names.
24:11.019 --> 24:13.600
I've got a name of about— names. I've got a list of about 20 or
24:14.100 --> 24:18.056
so guys at our church that I want to invite over the next several years
24:18.168 --> 24:21.903
into this relationship, either with me or with
24:22.592 --> 24:24.820
somebody else who's gone through this with me.
24:27.136 --> 24:30.171
So, but whenever I meet with them, like yesterday I had lunch with a guy
24:30.768 --> 24:33.758
who I was inviting into an apprenticeship relationship.
24:34.409 --> 24:37.750
And so I always give them permission to
24:38.250 --> 24:41.296
say no. I'm saying, hey, I want to invite you to
24:41.796 --> 24:44.735
this. Here's kind of the overview of it. Here's the plan. I've been praying.
24:44.848 --> 24:49.338
You've been on my heart. I think this will be good for you with
24:49.435 --> 24:53.140
the goal of you going and doing the same thing in
24:53.238 --> 24:58.067
a little, after some training and going through this. Through this
24:58.180 --> 25:01.538
plan, but here's the deal. You're not going to hurt my feelings
25:01.586 --> 25:04.947
if you say I can't do it right now. In fact,
25:05.270 --> 25:08.644
I would much rather you be honest with yourself and say no now than
25:08.821 --> 25:12.888
be in this for 10 weeks and just tell me I can't
25:13.098 --> 25:16.685
do this for whatever reason. Giving permission to
25:16.717 --> 25:20.110
say no goes a long way, especially if you're
25:20.610 --> 25:24.340
a leader, either a pastoral leader or a community leader.
25:24.668 --> 25:28.755
Giving somebody permission to say no goes a long way, and you'll find that people
25:28.851 --> 25:32.587
will have a— the response
25:32.812 --> 25:36.339
will be good on that. So consider
25:36.839 --> 25:40.632
doing that when you're picking and when you're praying through who you're going to invite
25:41.132 --> 25:43.573
into this relationship. I was thinking about availability. I mean,
25:44.571 --> 25:48.318
you as a disciple maker have to make the time. You have to decide,
25:50.238 --> 25:52.939
I'm going to carve out this time. I'm going to take this off my calendar.
25:53.248 --> 25:56.393
This is the time that that I'm going to block off to meet
25:56.521 --> 25:59.897
with so-and-so or this group, that group.
26:01.247 --> 26:05.275
I do think Brett made a great point that there are different models
26:05.470 --> 26:08.562
and it's okay. We have 2 groups at
26:09.062 --> 26:12.568
the church that are too big. They're working, I guess, but they're bigger
26:12.584 --> 26:16.071
than what we originally want. We're forming some smaller groups.
26:16.457 --> 26:19.863
I got one who's doing one-on-one right now. It may turn into
26:19.895 --> 26:24.530
a group, it may not, but There's just—
26:25.030 --> 26:27.610
here's what I'm so excited about. We're actually doing it. Yeah, there you go.
26:28.110 --> 26:31.610
Exactly right. I was talking, having a conversation with a layperson last night. I'm like,
26:32.110 --> 26:35.850
yeah, we're kind of making this up as we go because this is like version
26:36.350 --> 26:39.320
1.0. But we're going in the right direction.
26:41.390 --> 26:46.130
We may be, we're learning, but we
26:46.630 --> 26:50.010
are learning while doing. And I'd rather be doing that and having these conversations
26:50.510 --> 26:53.455
about, hey, what's working here? What's not working here? Yeah. Um,
26:54.000 --> 26:57.720
so, because at least, at least something is happening.
26:58.474 --> 27:01.697
So for people out there, and, and I'm, uh, thinking about
27:02.197 --> 27:03.942
a lot of people, I've got some folks in my church right now who are
27:04.442 --> 27:07.919
so passionate about this, and, and simply by talking about it, we're giving them permission
27:08.419 --> 27:10.564
to have courage, which is great. Yes. Um, but,
27:11.526 --> 27:14.541
uh, I have been, uh, let me just confess, I have always been kind of
27:15.041 --> 27:18.614
stuck on how, how, how, and, and trying to make it make
27:19.114 --> 27:22.528
sense. And honestly, not wanting to make mistakes. And I think a lot
27:23.028 --> 27:26.844
of people are like that as well, especially if
27:27.344 --> 27:30.791
you feel like in any way it's
27:31.291 --> 27:35.155
presumptuous for me to ask somebody to pour into their life
27:35.219 --> 27:39.375
or however you're going to frame the ask. So let
27:39.875 --> 27:42.969
me float this by you and see what you think or how you would
27:42.985 --> 27:46.114
nuance this advice. If you feel that call and
27:46.614 --> 27:49.612
you have been working in discipleship and it's time to start, investing,
27:50.592 --> 27:55.008
um, then let's start with praying to
27:55.508 --> 27:58.188
see who, like Alan has said, who the Lord has put in your life.
27:59.344 --> 28:03.102
And then let that begin to form your methodology
28:03.134 --> 28:06.474
and your approach. Don't, don't say I have to get the approach.
28:07.148 --> 28:10.569
I need a group of 5. How am I gonna do it? What, what,
28:10.585 --> 28:14.134
what tools am I gonna use? Well, pray first. Who is the Lord
28:14.634 --> 28:17.779
putting in my life? It might be 1, 2, 3, or 4 people. And then
28:17.811 --> 28:21.216
you lean in, and guess what? Over a couple of
28:21.264 --> 28:24.669
weeks, if you've agreed to meet together and you want to pivot to a
28:25.169 --> 28:28.892
slightly different tool, or if you want to meet at different times, you are
28:29.392 --> 28:33.148
allowed because it's really about the transfer and
28:33.648 --> 28:37.372
the transformation of somebody in their hearts. So I'm just saying that
28:37.484 --> 28:40.568
to give permission to not get stuck in the ways that I've gotten stuck.
28:40.632 --> 28:44.330
How would you all nuance or Or correct that
28:44.830 --> 28:48.190
advice? Yeah, no, I think that's great because, and we're, we're part, you know,
28:48.690 --> 28:51.130
going through this book, we're gonna get into some of the methods and the way
28:51.630 --> 28:54.330
Jesus did it. But, uh, it's,
28:54.830 --> 28:58.110
don't, don't let fear, I think fear is a big,
28:58.610 --> 29:01.910
big, huge obstacle that we all have to deal with. I, I heard, I heard
29:02.410 --> 29:06.350
somewhere that fear is the mind killer. Oh, oh, that's great line.
29:06.850 --> 29:10.610
That's from Dune. Yeah. I love this. Yeah. That's a great line. That's from
29:11.110 --> 29:13.230
Dune. It's not biblical at all, but you know, but maybe it, I don't know.
29:13.730 --> 29:17.193
Go ahead, Alex. But I think we fear like we don't know enough. We fear
29:17.338 --> 29:20.980
that, hey, we're not worthy enough. We fear rejection,
29:21.109 --> 29:23.548
you know, hey, the permission to say no type of thing.
29:24.462 --> 29:27.527
Just start praying. If you have a heart,
29:27.607 --> 29:31.458
if the Lord is leading you to live out the mission that he's called
29:31.958 --> 29:34.860
us all to follow, then just start praying.
29:35.197 --> 29:38.647
And there are people perhaps that the Lord has already put in your life that
29:39.147 --> 29:41.712
you just have to have eyes to see. There's people in our churches that need
29:42.212 --> 29:44.873
discipling. There's people in their workplace, at school,
29:46.107 --> 29:49.714
He will bring those people to your mind and into your presence and into
29:50.214 --> 29:53.946
your sphere if they're not already there, and just start praying.
29:54.924 --> 29:58.306
Yeah, I think that's so good, and I would also say what helps me
29:58.371 --> 30:02.122
is thinking about this not in programmatic terms,
30:02.154 --> 30:06.161
but in terms of like a plan. And so the difference
30:06.225 --> 30:09.415
being plans can be flexible, right? Plans can,
30:09.992 --> 30:13.182
and you've got to be very flexible when you're disciple-making.
30:13.519 --> 30:17.030
Flexible from, I believe, flexible from the type of curriculum
30:17.063 --> 30:20.237
you use, if you use curriculum,
30:20.302 --> 30:22.828
to really cater.
30:24.623 --> 30:28.363
Like for me, I try to cater each experience or each relationship
30:28.863 --> 30:30.032
to the person I'm discipling.
30:32.460 --> 30:36.385
And so that for me is helpful. A program tends
30:36.401 --> 30:39.729
to be more rigid. A program for me tends to be
30:39.778 --> 30:43.620
more built around, let's say, curriculum or built around
30:44.540 --> 30:46.865
a timeframe or built around this or that. It's not, for me at least,
30:49.106 --> 30:52.534
as flexible. So find that language that is—
30:53.031 --> 30:56.571
that includes flexibility when you're doing this. And I think that takes the
30:57.071 --> 31:00.320
fear away, that helps alleviate some of the fear, because then
31:00.820 --> 31:03.604
you don't have to feel like you have to be perfect in it.
31:04.101 --> 31:06.440
Also, know you're not going to be perfect. You're going to make mistakes. You're going
31:06.940 --> 31:10.509
to say stupid things. You're going to— like, things are going to happen, but they
31:10.589 --> 31:14.514
are too. And the beautiful thing about this relationship is that it's that
31:14.578 --> 31:18.295
it's a relationship. It's give and take. It's learning from each other
31:19.400 --> 31:22.419
or from the group. Process. So for me,
31:23.068 --> 31:27.007
it's just having different language than what we're probably used
31:27.040 --> 31:28.840
to in a local church setting.
31:30.630 --> 31:33.981
I don't know, I just feel led to say this. Um, I think some
31:34.481 --> 31:36.751
of you may be listening and you're thinking,
31:37.670 --> 31:39.216
wait a minute, I've never been discipled.
31:41.264 --> 31:44.109
Um, nobody's ever poured into me like you're talking about,
31:44.174 --> 31:45.768
like Jesus did with the disciples.
31:47.937 --> 31:51.052
Well, I mean, that's one of the realizations that I came to
31:51.084 --> 31:54.504
is that I'd never really truly been discipled. I've been discipled in the
31:55.004 --> 31:58.374
ways of being a good church member and seeing how typical
31:58.874 --> 32:02.741
ministry, at least that I had seen be done. And so
32:03.111 --> 32:05.567
just made a decision. All right, Lord, this is what you called me to do.
32:05.856 --> 32:09.517
I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna try to figure this out. And that's what
32:10.017 --> 32:13.224
I've been doing. Also, in terms of— I'm
32:13.288 --> 32:16.765
thinking about selection, and we've been talking about
32:17.265 --> 32:20.610
selecting people to disciple. Maybe what the Lord maybe
32:21.110 --> 32:24.504
needs you to do is to ask and pray about somebody to disciple you.
32:25.626 --> 32:29.103
And don't be scared to
32:29.311 --> 32:32.468
go to somebody in your church who you think is a little more mature,
32:32.772 --> 32:36.377
been following Jesus for a little bit longer. Don't be
32:36.877 --> 32:40.322
scared to go and ask them to disciple you. And they
32:40.822 --> 32:44.393
may not know, they may not, yeah, they may
32:44.893 --> 32:48.191
be scared too about that, but maybe that's what you need to pray about,
32:49.050 --> 32:51.560
somebody in your church to come alongside you.
32:53.302 --> 32:57.061
And I've seen, I've witnessed that, that's happening
32:57.094 --> 33:00.240
more in my church. People are coming to the realization and they're like,
33:00.643 --> 33:03.996
I really want somebody to pour into me. And that's happened on occasion.
33:04.127 --> 33:08.207
And so don't, Don't be
33:08.707 --> 33:12.502
scared to admit that. And I just want to invite you
33:12.874 --> 33:15.279
to do that if that's what you feel like you need to do. I want
33:15.779 --> 33:19.207
to give 2 examples that back up what Allen is saying there. First of all,
33:21.719 --> 33:25.487
I had a guy in my church who is almost 80 come
33:25.600 --> 33:29.609
to me and asking me, and I'm 46, almost 47.
33:30.028 --> 33:33.833
He came to me asking me if I would disciple
33:34.333 --> 33:38.206
him. Now, this is a guy who, you know, knows he's
33:38.706 --> 33:42.397
been in the church his entire life. Yeah. And he's a faithful follower.
33:42.461 --> 33:45.592
Like, he's a— he's very dedicated to the mission of Christ.
33:46.074 --> 33:50.217
He told me, he said, I want the last thing I do before
33:50.265 --> 33:53.187
I go into glory is to disciple my grandkids,
33:53.300 --> 33:57.105
and I need to know how to do that. So he came to me about
33:57.137 --> 34:00.614
that. And then I've got a pastor,
34:00.679 --> 34:03.738
there's a pastor in our area who pastors a different church,
34:03.851 --> 34:07.267
different, like it's a non-denominational church. He and I were
34:08.302 --> 34:11.522
tag-teaming a funeral,
34:12.311 --> 34:14.951
and before that funeral, he came to me and he said,
34:15.370 --> 34:17.551
hey, I want to ask you, would you disciple me?
34:18.846 --> 34:22.537
Now, this is a guy who disciples people, like he already is
34:22.634 --> 34:27.231
a really just
34:27.731 --> 34:31.085
good disciple maker, but he found that he was not being discipled himself. He was
34:31.181 --> 34:34.808
pouring out, pouring out, and pouring out, but not being filled up. And so he
34:35.308 --> 34:39.654
just came to me. He's about 10 years younger, and he said, will you disciple
34:40.154 --> 34:42.927
me? So it doesn't even have to be someone in your church is what I'm
34:43.427 --> 34:46.907
saying. Pastors, disciple other pastors in
34:47.407 --> 34:50.598
your community. Disciple people. It's the kingdom, man. It's the kingdom. That's what the beautiful
34:50.678 --> 34:54.658
thing about this is, is this kingdom is not It's not denominational,
34:54.706 --> 34:58.381
it's not siloed. Yeah, our 2 main groups
34:58.881 --> 35:01.735
have like 5 or 6 different churches represented.
35:02.714 --> 35:06.229
And so this is, you know, this is that disciple-making
35:06.277 --> 35:09.262
is kingdom business. It's not church business. Yeah, no doubt. So yeah. Yes,
35:09.535 --> 35:12.825
absolutely. So man, that's awesome. I'm gonna
35:13.325 --> 35:16.035
tell you one thing here. You know, 'cause you're talking about people asking to be
35:16.535 --> 35:19.822
discipled, one of the things to encourage you is you might be,
35:19.967 --> 35:23.371
by asking someone to pour into you, you might, very well
35:23.871 --> 35:28.639
be a catalyst to starting a movement around your community just
35:29.139 --> 35:31.418
by asking the question. And then just remember,
35:32.109 --> 35:34.920
my experience of late has been surprising to me.
35:35.562 --> 35:39.273
People are hungry, and the Lord is at work
35:39.773 --> 35:44.156
in people's lives. And so to
35:44.656 --> 35:47.995
have the courage, if you're praying, I would encourage people who feel a sense of
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maturity and you wonder what your next step in ministry is, it's probably going to
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be involving, well, it's going to be involving making disciples in
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some way. Just be praying, who is the Lord putting around you?
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Just start with that prayer is my suggestion and then
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follow us for the remainder of this season of episodes to figure
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out what to do along the way. Yeah, there you go. Absolutely, absolutely. Nice little
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plug. Yeah, and remember, this,
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Christians, is a commandment. I mean, this is the Great
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Commandment, or a Great Commission, I should say,
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that flows from the Great Commandment. I really believe the Great Commission
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flows out of the Great Commandment. Well, I love what we heard at conference.
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Our purpose is to love God and love one another. That's the Great Commandment.
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Our assignment is to make disciples. That's true. And our purpose,
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our assignment flows out of our purpose. As we love God, as we love others,
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we're going to go and make disciples. That's right. That's right. Well,
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this has been great, guys. It's been good to really kind of lock into this
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and talk about how we choose people and what we're
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looking for. And y'all, if we could just sum it up, if I could sum
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it up for us, pray. Just pray, pray, pray. Be earnest in your
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prayer about this, and you'll see the Lord move in a powerful way, and I
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truly believe that. Well, that's it for this episode of the Patachesis Podcast.
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As always, you can find us @patachesis on the social medias
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and platforms, the social media platforms, I should say. Or is it
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the socials media? The socials media, yeah.
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But you can find us there. You can look us up, share us
37:22.141 --> 37:25.673
out and about as we get this thing back off
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the ground and going strong. And until next time,
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we look forward to speaking to you again on the Catechesis Podcast.