Leading Through Imposter Syndrome (phenomenon)

WEBVTT
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Hey, welcome everybody.
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This is Steve McKeon.
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And I'm Alex Aranda.
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And this is Lupe Muñoz.
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And this is the Leadership Exchange.
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First of all, a little recognition for Alex Aranda.
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That's your first intro, Alex.
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Way to go.
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You flowed right in there.
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Nicely done.
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And to commemorate that's this special first episode with the three of us officially on the Leadership Exchange.
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We have an excellent, excellent guest, someone we all know and respect, Mike Sweeney.
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Mike, if if you could please introduce yourself to our audience, and then I'm going to pose you with uh a few questions to get us started on our topic today.
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That sounds good.
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And excited to be here on the first one with the trio.
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Yeah.
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I'll give you kind of both parts to my intro.
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I mean, if I think about the professional side of me, you know, former armored cavalry officer, leader in manufacturing, leader in learning and development, executive coach, team coach, and all of that stuff.
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Also a proud dad of three girls, two golden retrievers, pretty intense runner, comedy nerd, lit major, and I take teams and individuals into the woods sometimes.
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Nice.
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We may have to talk a little bit more about that one, that last one there, Mike.
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The other thing I think you should include in your intro moving forward is a past guest of the leadership exchange, right?
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That that'll probably increase your street cred a little bit.
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Top of the list.
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So so, Mike, you know, today's topic, we all agreed ahead of time.
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We're we're gonna talk about something that we feel is worthy of discussion is the imposter syndrome, specifically around leadership and in and as leaders, you know, that experience that.
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We're hoping you've got a story for us related to that, and then we want to then go into some deep dive into it.
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And probably there's a few of us that have a few stories about it as well.
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I mean, I've worked with a lot of clients, especially as they're transitioning and leveling up and getting that sense of imposter syndrome.
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I remember I was nine months, so there I was, right?
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I'm nine months into this role at Bain and Company.
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It's an incredibly high-performing, intense culture.
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And I was supposed to drive this big change project.
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I didn't feel like I had the skills to do it.
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I was completely intimidated by everyone around me.
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And I actually went back to my boss and said, Are you sure that you hired me for the right reasons?
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Like, do you think I can actually do this?
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This is nine months in after I'd already tried to establish credibility.
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And I had this idea in my head of how good things were supposed to be because of the peer group around me.
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I was incredibly tough on myself and I wasn't sure that I was gonna make it.
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And that was probably the most intense, like high performance culture, not sure that I had enough backing, not sure if I had the skills, overthinking everything.
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So, yeah, I've had that feeling.
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And for me, uh, some of it was due to the system, and some of it is due to the things that I was thinking about myself.
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Thanks for sharing that.
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Um how do you define imposter syndrome?
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That way our listeners can kind of get all get on the same sheet of music with us.
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I mean, I I am far from a psychologist.
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I know that it is not really a syndrome, it's originally called a phenomenon.
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And it was, I think late 70s, some research on high-performing women or high achieving women.
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I can't remember exactly what it's called, but there's a there's a chance IP scale, imposter phenomenon scale, evidence-based.
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I tend to go back to the evidence when I'm feeling like an imposter.
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This is really when we have that feeling that maybe we're less than, maybe we're gonna be found out, maybe we don't have the capabilities.
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We attribute success to things that are external rather than internal.
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There are a lot of variations and splits on, you know, collectivist versus individualistic cultures, gender split, you know, whether you're the only.
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There's a lot of different components and things that are going on, but basically feeling like I'm not good enough and I'm not going to be able to perform is usually how I define it.
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Yeah, that's consistent with my thoughts on it.
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Alex, Steve, what what do you what thoughts or first of all, have you guys felt the same that same way as far as an imposter syndrome moment?
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Because I definitely have.
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I definitely have.
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And I want to share that even before I knew that it had a name, I I I kind of started to recognize some of the ways in which I would feel and think.
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And I I I think one story that part of why I wanted us to talk about imposter syndrome is because this was happening in real time not long ago, Mike, when us were meeting.
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I remember I'd gotten to dinner, Lupe and Steve were there, and we were excited to see you in person.
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And I was just sharing with them some of the anxiety that I was feeling.
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And they were, you know, they were kind of like scratching their heads and thinking like, well, why?
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And and it was just recognizing for me that this happens or was happening a lot to me.
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And feeling like this, I have to always be perfect, or I have to, and Lupe knows this about me.
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I have a tendency to over-prepare for things that are probably not that big of a deal.
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But but it goes back to just some of the things that happened to me.
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And this came out very organically over dinner meeting with you, Mike.
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And there were some things that we talked about that evening that were really, really powerful for me.
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And I feel like I made a breakthrough in some ways.
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And just acknowledging that I'm the first generation in my family to work in a professional setting, it's it's different.
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You don't have perhaps advice from people around you to tell you how you're supposed to show up or feel.
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And that's that's part of what has fed into this, but I'm I'm really glad that we're talking about it.
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And I'm I want to find a way to share some of the things that we talked about that have been really helpful for me since that discussion.
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Yeah, Mike, I don't know if you recall the dinner that we had.
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What I recognized is the conversation that we had on this subject was different than conversations that I've had before around that, where sometimes I've been in a position where I'm trying just to provide encouragement.
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I'll overthinking it.
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And in some ways, those can be really damaging things you can say to somebody that is struggling from it.
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And I think I don't know if you recall.
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Or maybe Alex, you can share with the uh listeners what Mike said, because I could see the light bulb go on as soon as he said that.
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I I could see you lit up, you smile, you're like, shook your head.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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You want to share that, Alex or Mike?
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You guys remember?
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I'll start and then the first thing that really stuck out to me was Mike.
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You you talked about, you know, just the ability to recognize it, right?
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And and call it out.
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And that was on the surface, simple but definitely powerful.
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It was just kind of like, okay, acknowledging that that that voice is there.
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And then the second thing that you said was really trying to understand where is it coming from?
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And and and I think that's where immediately the the light bulb went off.
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And I started thinking about, hey, where where it comes from.
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You know, this is obviously going to be different for everyone, but that's where that element of, you know, being the first, and I'm the oldest of seven.
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My my parents are working class.
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They came here to this country and made a life for themselves, made a life for us as a family, but I'm first to go to college and first to really work in an environment that, you know, looks very different from where my parents have, where they worked, where they made their career.
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So that that was really powerful for me.
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Yeah, that's actually one of the kind of key indicators that it could happen is kind of that quote, first generation effect.
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It's like first one to go to college, first one to be professional.
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I remember when I made it to a certain level, I like got this VP title and my dad called me and said, Do you get secret service?
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Like, clearly, that's not the level of corporate success that our family is used to.
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And I think some of that was playing out in my imposter syndrome story.
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Those voices that we hear, I find with clients often they recognize whose voice it is.
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It's often a relative, maybe a parental figure.
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And the the kind of high expectation upbringing is another thing that can bring out that voice of like never good enough, or you know, uh, we can pick up those identities.
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Like my brother had an identity, I had an identity.
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Like, who's the smart one?
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Who's the other one?
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And sometimes we're always working to come out from under that.
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And so that that emotion that we have because of that self-talk can be really powerful and also paralyzing.
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Um, I felt it, you've felt it.
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And I think for you, it's one of those of course you belong at that table.
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And sometimes it's our job to see and acknowledge in other people that even though they're feeling that, if we can see the thing that maybe they're not seeing and help reframe a little bit, it can create a sense of ease.
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But yeah, you definitely belonged at that table.
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Yeah.
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Well, thank you for those words.
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Totally agree with that one.
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Um I'm you know, what I don't understand is me and Steve have been saying that, but it took Mike Sweeney's words to resonate with Alex.
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I I don't know what that says about me and Steve, but or maybe the Smith is the external expert, like an outside voice, easier to hear.
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Maybe that's affirmation versus advice, I guess.
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I'm not sure.
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I mostly I would I would counter just a little bit that what you said though, because we were coaching, right?
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We're doing a lot of coaching and supportive, really trying to point out the things that Alex had really a lot of strength in.
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And I I think the one thing that I I picked up in that conversation, and uh Alex had brought it up, is Mike's first point is well, acknowledge that you feel that way.
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Like that's that's kind of that first step is don't try and push it off, just say, okay, I'm feeling this.
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Okay, now what can I do about it?
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And that's that's kind of that moment that I saw Alex really kind of light up like she hadn't heard that from her two brothers, or if we had it, it hadn't been clear enough.
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Yeah.
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No, uh I and it was it was great to to see that moment kind of play out in front of in front of me, or in front of all of us, but for me personally, in front of me.
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But I'm gonna throw a different perspective for you, the three of you.
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They you know me fairly well, I'll say, some of you very well.
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You know, I don't lack confidence.
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It's one of the things that's you can say a lot of things about me, but you can't say I don't lack confidence, at least in most situations.
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One of the most moments where I really truly felt inadequate was when I completely changed careers, and I feel like that type of scenario can be very, very, very different for for someone like cell and very disorienting because I I went from being in a manufacturing wine industry to mainline retail for a big a big retailer in the US.
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So I went from doing that to becoming now a store uh manager for a major retailer.
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I went from like being the person that could talk about anything related to what what I was doing or what it related to the business, related to the industry.
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I mean, I could I could talk away and and and be very good at it, I I think, to basically I felt like the village idiot when I went to this retail world where I knew nothing about some of the systems and the terminology, and it it really messed with my mind and my confidence.
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Like I just wasn't used to that.
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And so it really threw me for a loop, and I really had to like shake myself internally, shake myself to say you deserve to be here.
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You you were here for a reason, you just gotta learn from the ground up, and you need to be okay with that.
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Being now almost like a constant student instead of the teacher, if you will.
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I I feel that that's not because I had something internally going on, like in in my life.
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It it was really truly, I feel, just that moment of real realization that I don't know anything about this new world that I've entered.
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Mike, what what are your thoughts there?
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That's another situation that can bring up the imposter syndrome is high-stakes transitions or transformations.
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But it's almost like, you know, you were a caterpillar, you're going through some sort of chrysalis phase, and now you're a butterfly, and like, why aren't I flying better?
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It's like, dude, you just got your wings a day ago.
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And managing our own expectations of like how fast we're supposed to come up to speed with stuff.
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The discomfort of being in that kind of unknown space or or conscious incompetence, it doesn't feel good, especially when someone typically is a strong performer.
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Switch the context and it's a complete transformation.
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Even if there are some things that are analogous to the work that you did in the past, you know, one could argue if you look at the way like males versus females apply to jobs, like males will tend to apply to jobs if we have 40% of the skill match.
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Females tend to apply when it's like 70, 80%.
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So we tend to have a little bit of willingness to go over our skis.
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I'm painting with broad breaststrokes.
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So if you get a situation where you've been confident, you feel like, yeah, I can probably do that job.
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You might put yourself in a situation where, whoa, this is much, much harder.
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And I'm still supposed to be really good and I'm not yet.
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Yeah.
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That's what it sounds like.
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Yeah.
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You're describing the feeling I had absolutely.
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But you know, the the great thing I think, at least from my perspective, going through that experience, I'm able to get ahead with with someone, let's say a new, a new leader on the team that is from a very different industry and coming in.
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And I always like to sit down with them and explain to them, hey, you may feel this.
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It's okay, it's part of the process.
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And I I'll share my own personal experience that like I did a few minutes ago, because then I I I'm hoping that that allows them to recognize that it's happening to them and be okay with it, and therefore get to the I'm okay with it, I'm gonna just learn phase now instead of getting inside their heads, and then all of a sudden that lack of confidence starts to really work against them in their a precious first few months of of a job.
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Yeah, and I would add, Lupe, that what you just described has to be an intentional practice of an organization because they you have to realize, especially with new leaders, that is likely the feeling they're gonna have.
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And they they may not express it.
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And so I think it's really important just to know that that is a condition that is most likely gonna happen because when you read the literature on this, 75% of people face this through the throughout their lives, sometimes multiple times.
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And so I think you know, as you're developing new leaders in any organization, you really have to have that built in.
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And just the story I'll share is that you started a new role in a company where they're just insisting that for the first 90 days, even though I'm really a technical expert in kind of the area they brought me in, they're telling me go slow, to go fast, learn our business, learn, you know, get to know people.
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So they've they've given me the grace of I don't have to come in as the subject matter expert and make all these heavy decisions right out of the gate.
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And that is very intentional, and I think that's something that a lot of companies uh can learn from is just setting up that environment, especially with new leaders coming in.
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I I shouldn't just say new leaders, any any leader coming in, right?
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Kudos to to the the team you joined because some organizations aren't like that, unfortunately.
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Some organizations they immediately want you to start delivering some level of results, and some situations may require that, but unless it's there's like a huge, tremendous burning platform that you've got to address, organizations, even with those conditions, won't really give the opportunity and be intentional, like like they were with you about saying, hey, we want you not to have to make changes.
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We need you to learn and pick and understand our culture and really just uh acclimate, if you will, to to our team.
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And there's less expectations that way, right?
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Instead of, hey, you need to do all that and change the world, you know, in the first 90 days.
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You that that's a system, in my opinion, that's built to encourage or or foster more imposter imposter syndrome within the organization.
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There have been some studies, I can't remember the specifics of where I read this, but that said that if imposter syndrome is a sort of like a thing within your organization, many people are experiencing, it's probably you as the leader.
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If you are the leader, that's part of the problem, not those individuals.
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Yeah, Mike, from an L and D perspective, have you designed programs that really think about that condition as you're bringing new leaders into an organization?
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Yeah, I mean, your comment was great.
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I mean, I actually wrote it down like make it an organizational practice, right?
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Because it there's one thing to say, hey, we're gonna give you the time and space to feel this, and it's going to happen.
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And also, as you feel it, communicate with others because they've probably felt it too.
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That I love that idea of building that into an organizational practice.
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For me, it usually came up with onboarding and really making sure that it's clear that there's some intention to the onboarding plan, there's a pace to the plan, there's building relationships to it, and it's not a race to goals.
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And it's not you come in, you have to have your 90-day plan.
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Smaller organizations, I think sometimes there's even more pressure because you're a, you know, you don't have thousands of people around.
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You kind of have to hit the ground running.
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So I certainly felt it when I went into the startup.
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But I think both building it into the onboarding plan as a practice, but then also, you know, making sure that there's enough safety.
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And I know people talk a lot about psychological safety.
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And I saw Amy Edmondson on a on a podcast, and she was talking about how she wasn't trying to create a safe space, she was trying to create a space that was safe to be brave.
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And it takes courage to say, you know what, I don't know if I necessarily feel like delivering at the expectation that you had when I started.
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And usually if the boss has a sense, they can say, no, you're still learning.
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It's okay.
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And I I appreciate the courage you had in saying that, but you're good.
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You know, if the leader kind of encourages that, I think that can make the make the imposter syndrome a little bit more normal that like you're gonna feel this.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:07.359
So thinking about it and onboarding, normalizing talking about it, and making sure that there's a safe space enough to say the brave thing like, I had to say it nine months in to my boss.
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.240
Are you sure you hired me for the right reason?
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:11.039
Like, what am I?
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:13.200
And he's like, No, no, you're fine, you're still learning.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:15.839
This is a really difficult culture to understand.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.400
It's a lot of complexity and like you're on track.
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.680
And that made me feel a lot, a lot better.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:26.640
But I haven't really built for the opposite of imposter syndrome.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:38.480
I've maybe built for increasing time to competence or decreasing time to inclusion, but I never thought about it like the opposite of preventing imposter syndrome.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:46.400
Knowing what I know now, I might have built things a little bit differently with intention, but I certainly would have added in those organizational practices that you're experiencing.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.240
We talk a lot about servant leadership.
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:50.160
Alex, I'm gonna throw this your way.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:57.440
So there's imposter syndrome or phenomenon, imposter phenomenon, and then there's servant leadership.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:09.920
I think if you don't know what's going on inside someone's mind, some of the things that I think someone that's feeling like an imposter, some of the behaviors I would think are very similar.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:20.799
For example, you know, if you're if you're having those doubts of in of the imposter syndrome slash phenomenon, you're probably asking a lot of questions.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.640
You're not giving a lot of direction.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:29.039
You're you're kind of trying to see like, okay, what what does everybody else think before I make a decision, right?
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:34.319
Well, a servant leader also can do that, or or the servant leader can be the last to speak, right?
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:46.559
We've talked about this, Steve, on several episodes before, where, hey, you know, I intentionally will speak last because I want to see what the rest of the team, I don't want to bias them or influence them with my opinion of something.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:48.240
But is it the same?
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:49.440
Is it not the same?
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:50.960
And how are they different?
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.920
What and what thoughts come through your mind when I with that question?
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.440
I think that's a that's a great question as I was listening to you.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:21.839
Speak another example that came to mind was if you think about servant leadership, the praise uh goes to the team, and the imposter syndrome can uh creep up in the sense of balance in your own achievements and then from the servant leadership perspective where it's not me, it's all the team.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:27.440
So there's that that element of it's it's it's just a it's a tough situation.
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:38.559
I was just trying to think about where from a imposter syndrome you don't the imposter phenomenon, you don't want to take the praise.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:45.920
So you struggle with taking praise when people recognize and it's that downplaying effect.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:55.279
And then from that servant leadership perspective, you know, as a leader, you're also wanting to just really elevate the team.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:58.960
Could one reinforce the other?
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:00.079
Or I don't know if it's a good idea.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:01.279
Or work against it, right?
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:03.359
The other two is kind of work against it.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.640
Uh so yeah, I I like the fact you're thinking about those two.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:12.319
That's the sort of the battle, I guess, if you will, around okay, which one which is it augmenting?
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:13.039
Is it helping?
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:14.319
Is it working against?
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:15.279
Yeah.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:17.519
Mike, what what are your thoughts or Steve?
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.200
What what are you guys' thoughts on that one?
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.519
I mean, I love that example, right?
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:28.720
The the person who keeps praise away and and blames all their success or or attributes all their success to external environments.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:32.240
You you could have a an imposter servant leader.
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.640
Like, I don't think they're contradictory, and it probably would be hard to spot.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:38.960
Like you're always giving credit away, never taking credit.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.279
And that's kind of what we learned as servant leaders to do.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.400
That's like back to that Jim Collins level four, level five.
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.240
You know, level four is Patton, level five is Lincoln giving the credit away.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.759
I knew early in my career that I am not Lincoln.
00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:01.279
And and and I sometimes really have to work to remind myself that it's important to be humble because it's not like a normal thing.
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:09.519
I mean, I was growing up, my brother used to have a pencil holder that said on the cover, it was like wooden, and it said, it's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:11.359
And it always used to make me laugh.
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.160
So that's what was in the water in the Sweeney household.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:20.000
But I think that you could probably be a servant leader and feeling that sense of imposter syndrome.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:32.319
And rather than taking a moment to feel proud with the team, you take a moment to feel to give that pride away, that praise away, and not take any and still feel like your team is going great, but you're not a part of it.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:41.920
I think that's a great example of when it's almost dangerous to be too much of a servant leader that would lead you into feelings of imposter.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:42.720
I love that example.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:52.880
Yeah, that's that's a really good point because you know you could hide behind it to the point you were making there, Mike, and live maybe too long in that that space, unintentionally, even right.
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.720
So good point, Mike and Alex.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.839
Mike, I got a question for you just because I I think there's some interest here that that I've got.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:07.119
So a while ago I heard someone say that imposter syndrome is the same as fear of public speaking.
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.079
And I and I kind of said, no, I don't I don't believe so.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:14.880
I'm I'm curious, Mike, what uh your thoughts are from uh you know the work you've done.
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.039
Imposter syndrome and fear of public speaking.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:30.960
I mean, I imagine that if your fear of public speaking is because you feel less than, or you don't feel like you can deliver, or you overprepare on your sessions, like I think there could be a, you know, who am I to have something to share to a large group of people?
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:35.519
You know, some I think people can have fear of public speaking for a large number of reasons.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:41.119
They had an issue in the past, they didn't prepare enough, some sort of kind of event.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:46.240
But maybe there's a connection if I don't feel like my voice is to be listened to.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.359
Yeah, I I don't know.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:53.279
I think you can probably have a little bit of one without the other and a little bit of the other without the other one, but I think there's probably a connection.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:53.599
Yeah.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:26:06.319
Um, sometimes people just tend to be a little bit more behind the scenes and would never want to hold the microphone, but are actually pretty competent and very confident in their own shoes and don't necessarily feel like an imposter.
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:10.160
So maybe a little column A, a little column B with some connections in the middle.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:13.599
That was kind of my thought as well in conversation.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:20.240
And I kind of equate it to the fact that I've known people that are really confident in their like technical capability.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:27.519
And so the first time that you see them present or get in front of a group, you see not that same person.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:35.039
And it's it's kind of like you know, they just went off glide path and you're like, hey, whatever, you're the most knowledgeable person I know in that space.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:43.519
But it's that I think it is the you know the the real phobia of being in front of people and you know other things that come at you.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:54.799
But I think it's also to your point, Mike, I think you it's a compounding thing if you have imposter syndrome and all of a sudden you do have a speaking engagement, it can just really start to you know rattle someone's case.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:55.759
I I agree with you.
00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:59.839
I think they're two different, but they definitely overlap between them.
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:01.759
I'm not an expert, by the way, either.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:05.519
I'm gonna throw the situational leader hat on for a second.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:08.319
So we got to remember that these are two different tasks.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:13.599
At the task of being technically competent, at the task of being a good public speaker.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:25.920
And this person could be that, you know, strong developmental level, super high confidence, super high competence at the technical task, and could be very low confidence and very low competence at the task of public speaking.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.119
And I think you're right.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:34.640
If if you add in a little imposter syndrome, I mean, I know for me, when I did my TEDx, I did it 50 times out loud.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:36.400
I was very prepared.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.039
Could I have gotten away with it at 20?
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:40.079
Probably.
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.119
But I did those extra 30 because I was worried like, am I gonna be enough?
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:46.319
Am I gonna remember everything?
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:49.599
Am I standing up in front of everybody looking like a fool?
00:27:49.759 --> 00:28:00.480
So I think you know, there's there's probably when the imposter system shows shows up to someone who is not a comfortable public speaker, boy, that can be a tough brain to live in.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:12.720
Yeah, I'm gonna compare it imposter syndrome, at least full acknowledgement that I'm I'm not an expert on this either, but I feel like imposter syndrome is like drinking alcohol.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.799
It's okay to drink alcohol from time to time.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:17.920
It's okay.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:34.480
When you're drinking alcohol daily, and same thing, if you're feeling like an imposter constantly, I imagine it's unhealthy for you versus, hey, just having moments or situational triggers that maybe cause that.
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:43.759
But but again, I mean I could be wrong, but I just feel like that's when it becomes unhealthy, I feel, is when you're constantly thinking that there's got to be something very deep there.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:45.039
Alex, that I can tell.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.480
I agree with you, Lupe.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:57.279
And I think that the point that we're we're wanting to highlight is that imposter syndrome, it's it's normal.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:04.640
And if we think about most early career professionals, there's that natural tendency to feel that way.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:15.359
And oh, by the way, you're not alone because as we've said already, you know, the statistics are out there that says 60, 70% of people go through this.
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:33.119
Now, to your point about uh not uh letting it uh derail your success, you know, I look at this as when there's that constant sound, that voice in one's mind that you're not enough, you're not enough.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.279
That's really where the mind shift has to change.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:46.559
And I I think it's a great opportunity for us to talk about you know some practices that people can leverage.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:30:08.480
I talked about what came out of our discussion mic, or number one, recognizing it or examining it, or but I I think it's I I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about the significance of having a great core group of people around you, their community.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:22.640
And I mean, on this call here, Lupe, Steve, and and now you Mike, right, that that really have been really impactful for me for helping to get to a breakthrough.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:50.079
And I talk to Lupe and Steve constantly about this, or and collectively they help me understand that it's okay to not feel ready sometimes, especially as we're embarking on in new things, and it it's okay not to feel ready or after going through a new training or whatever the the new thing is where confidence comes.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:55.039
And that's been another really helpful thing that I would share with others.
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:58.400
What what do you what do you all three think?
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.880
Like well, how to combat imposter syndrome?
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:08.960
Yes, practices worth, yeah, that early career professionals could definitely maybe lean on from time to time.
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:16.960
When when I'm working with clients and we're typically doing some sort of change work, there's usually three steps that I see.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:23.440
There, there's what I call the edge, where they're kind of sensing that there might be something out there that's bigger and better.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:29.200
There's another phase, which I call the peak, which is about creating some sort of positive vision for the future.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:34.720
But then there's the unknown in the middle when you're actively moving from the edge to the peak.
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.880
And in that phase, that's when the inner critic starts to show up really heavy.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:45.200
And I kind of see the saboteur voice, the inner critic, and the imposter syndrome all lumped in together.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.160
So there are a few practices that I tend to use.
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.200
I mean, one is simply like going back to the data.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:32:01.359
Uh, I know Steven Lupe are quite familiar with the ladder of inference, but you've kind of got that observable data lake, and then you've got the data that you're selecting.
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:06.319
So sometimes just simply going back rationally and looking at like what's available around me.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:07.680
Am I really a failure?
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:08.799
Am I really a this?
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:10.000
Has this actually happened?
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.319
Okay, it's happened one out of 27 times.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:12.799
Okay.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:14.960
So that's certainly a rational way.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.720
I read this book called the alter ego effect, which I thought was really cool.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:21.119
It was kind of about taking on these other personas.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.559
And he has this tool in the book that I've adapted for my own.
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:28.480
He calls a response proclamation, but I call it a hero's rebuttal.
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:41.440
So if you're hearing something in your head like, you know, I'm not that creative, or you know, I'm not gonna be able to figure this out, you kind of have a set script that you create to combat that voice.
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.640
And for me, mine starts with like, well, I'm the guy.
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:56.799
So if someone says, if the imposter voice says to me, like, oh, you're not gonna be able to do that, because I say, Oh, yeah, well, I'm the guy who was able to go to school, finish it in two years, and then get that senior level job.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:59.119
I'm the guy that won that award that did this thing.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.720
I'm the guy that runs marathons, not because they're easy, but because they're hard.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:13.200
I'm the guy, you know, and so I just kind of stack up and I have a script of like five to eight things that I will say, and I'll work with clients sometimes to build that script, drawing right from the book.
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:18.559
And if you have that, when the critic shows up, that can be really powerful, powerful way to combat it.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:34.480
The other thing that I've found helpful is in Kristen Neff's work on self-compassion, sometimes these inner voices or uh are really protectors, like preventing us from feeling shame or feeling embarrassment or feeling like a failure.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:39.839
And so these voices prevent us from trying things that could make us feel that way.
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:51.680
So sometimes approaching that inner critic voice was a little bit of compassion and curiosity, we can start to understand what was it designed to do when we were younger?
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.759
And maybe we can give that voice a different task.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.880
But that one is a little bit trickier, it's a little bit deeper.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.799
It's kind of in that internal family systems IFS style world.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:08.320
If you've read the book No Bad Parts, it's kind of like reorienting the parts of us towards something else.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:14.800
So kind of going to the data, creating a hero's rebuttal, and approaching that voice with calm and compassion.
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:21.840
The last one, when it comes to naming it, is I use a free assessment, the saboteur assessment from the positive intelligence world.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:28.239
And that way you can figure out like which voice comes up most often, like hyper achiever, hyper rational, whatever it is.
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:29.760
And there's some tools around that.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:31.599
Those are my four go-to's.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.880
I guess the fifth one I'd just say is look at the system.
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:42.639
If someone on an executive team is the only, well, maybe there's some issues in the system there.
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:45.119
Maybe the culture is super high stakes.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:50.239
I remember working at Bain, and one of the cultural norms was zero defect work.
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.119
Kind of a tough place to live when you're trying to innovate.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:58.639
The idea was that they were trying to build in a culture that we we build in time to make sure that we check our work.
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:03.199
But the phrasing of zero defect from me was like, oh man, I got misspellings and emails all over the place.
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:12.880
That was like that was a cultural system that created some imposter, looking at microaggressions and figuring out who does and who doesn't belong, if there are mentorship gaps.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:22.880
So I think that fifth one is looking at the system and seeing is this actually a rational response to a system that is not making me feel welcome, or or is it something that's coming up for me?
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:27.119
So that's a long answer to a short question, but that's my that's my five.
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:28.559
I love those items.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:29.840
Thanks for sharing that, Mike.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:50.880
I I think the other thing is your comment about system there kind of triggered some of the things that we talked on the front end around like building a system that actually supports the opposite, one that supports not creating potential environment where the the imposter and phenomenon exists more prevalently.
00:35:51.119 --> 00:36:18.000
And examples would be being able to have a peer buddy, assigning a peer buddy to someone so that they can start to connect and be able to maybe share that vulnerability, like, hey man, I'm not I'm I'm feeling so inadequate right now, so that that peer can then also, you know, serve as that support network that that allows them to voice and acknowledge that and then have someone say, Hey, that's okay, that's it's expected.
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:20.239
I've gone through it, you're not alone.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:28.400
It's it's part of a normal uh process with going into a different company or different, you know, industry, whatever that may be, different role.
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:44.719
And then doing the things like Steve's experiencing where uh a structured onboarding where, hey, we ex not only is it okay to not do nothing but learn, but it's an expectation that you're not gonna do anything but learn.
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:52.559
Those things are pretty powerful in kind of relieving that those conditions that that could lead to that feeling of imposter syndrome, I think.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:37:00.800
Well what's interesting is there's not a lot of literature out there that I I've run across in like must-read books, right?
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:08.079
Around leadership or overcoming public speaking or overcoming imposter syndrome.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.159
It's kind of a a nuance because I think there's great opportunity in that space.
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:20.960
And so in prepping for this call, I I went in and Googled and found several that are out there, and they're all relatively new.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:30.320
So I I think it's one of those areas that people are starting to recognize that hey, we we can provide some guidance on it, and it's it's definitely a powerful one.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.119
Throughout their life.
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:56.079
So even children that uh kind of get the first time they they have an opportunity to be a starter in a game sometimes start to get those same feelings and and how that's managed really impacts them later on too in in their careers.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:04.719
Which is kind of interesting how it's kind of a lifelong thing as uh you go through life and uh a great topic for the discussion.
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.639
There's two recent studies that I was doing some research on the inner critic.
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:11.920
One is from 2025, as is the other from 2025.
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:22.159
One is it was called Breaking the Vicious Cycle of Self-Criticism, and that was you know, this is an evidence-based study, and then the impact of self-affirmation interventions on well-being.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:26.639
Those are the two that I read, and I didn't find anything earlier than that.
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:37.360
And I was kind of looking, I found the stuff on the like imposter scale, but when looking at how do you break it, and it's less about the awareness of it, but like what do we do about it when it shows up?
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:42.400
I definitely do uh go back to that ultra-ego effect, Kristen Neff's book on self-compassion.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.039
And then also there's some good stuff in the inner game of tennis.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:53.039
I think I talked about it last time where you that have like the self-one and self-two, like one is the performer and the other is the criticizer of the performance.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:59.440
And if we can stay present, we can maybe shut down that other voice and just stay focused on the task.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:03.519
But yeah, there's some really interesting research coming out, and we all experience it.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:11.519
God, as soon as you said first time starting in a game, the pit of my stomach dropped, and I was like, oh my god, first time I was a left winger.
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:16.639
And I think that is the most visceral feeling I've had about imposter syndrome.
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:18.159
Like, what am I doing on the field?
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:19.599
The other guy's better than me.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:22.480
Like, I hope I don't they hope they don't kick it to me.
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:24.239
I had all of that.
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:34.719
That's what the uh the author was saying is that we we just have had it so often that maybe that's some of the reasons why you know we haven't studied it more.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:37.920
We we learn to cope and and and get over it.
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:54.159
But you know, Mike, I I think the other interesting thing that you spoke to Luke and I about, I came out if it was on our podcast or just on the the discussions of in the past was as you get a new group of leaders to work with, you go through some some learning, right?
00:39:54.400 --> 00:40:04.639
And I I think one of the things that was really interesting in kind of one of your new practices is taking people out of the area where they are very comfortable, right?
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:12.079
So they're now going out into an environmental wood and they're it just allows more open discussion, right?
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:13.199
A little bit of freedom, I think.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:29.199
And so the environment that that creates I think is also something that can definitely uh help people maybe recognize because I I I just I'll never forget that look Alex had that night when you said, well, first thing is just recognize that you're having it, and that's okay.
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:32.079
I could just see that make so much sense.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:33.519
And I was like, I've never said that.
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:38.159
Yeah, we tend to first jump in and be like, that's crazy, you don't need to feel that way.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:45.039
And the acknowledgement, I think this is the dad of daughters recognizing that you know, sometimes boo-boos hurt.
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:48.480
When I grew up, it was just rub a little dirt on it, right?
00:40:49.039 --> 00:41:08.079
And I had to kind of make that shift between, you know, pain don't hurt, and oh my goodness, this is and and um, and again, this isn't a gender brushstroke thing, but just I knew that the empathy and the vulnerability and the willingness to recognize and validate tends to be pretty, pretty powerful and and for anyone.
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.920
But like we didn't do that when I was growing up in the cab.
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:13.519
Yeah, I bet.
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:17.519
Let's let's tie this to something and then we'll finish off here.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.880
Let's tie this to something you mentioned earlier that I said, hey, I'd I'd like I want to hear a little bit more about that.
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:32.480
You do have these experiences for leaders related to you know going out into the forest, doing mountain climbing, though those types of things, right?
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:41.280
Is the imposters phenomenon one of those targeted things that you focus on, or not necessarily, but can be beneficial for that too?
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.400
Yeah, so so I'll I'll kind of put it in two camps.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:50.079
Like there are times where I go out on multi-day adventures with groups of folks, and they're usually mixed groups of folks.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:53.599
And and our kind of pathway is typically, you know, who are you now?
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:54.559
What is the dream?
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:55.679
Then what's the path?
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.280
And usually in what's the path is like I'll never be able to, I can't.
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:04.480
So you kind of face that inner critic as it relates to the thing they want to become.
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:10.480
But we also was asked recently to put together an event for an intact executive team.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:16.079
And we tried to figure out what their business needs were and then match the exercises to it.
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:22.960
So one of the days in our multi-day experience was centered around organizational design and building systems.
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:26.079
And so we paired that with canyoneering.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:30.800
And in canyoneering, we had four different repels, and one of them was 120 feet.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.280
Some of them didn't really like heights.
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:43.760
So, as we were processing that experience, you know, can you know, trusting your gear, trusting your guide, trusting the process, um, that was very, very difficult for folks.
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:49.119
And sometimes the the voice that would come up is this is too much, this is too scary, I can't.
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.400
And we spent some time processing like, when else does that come up?
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:56.159
What are some of the initiatives that feel like 120-foot falls?
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:58.000
You know, what's the risk here?
00:42:58.159 --> 00:42:59.440
What's the risk there?
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:05.679
As that fear came up, that fear seemed to be analogous to the imposter syndrome.
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:09.920
And so we're able to kind of get into that like, who am I to be CEO of this?
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:14.239
Could connect with who am I to be trying to go down this 120-foot rappel?
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:28.639
Um, it also showed up on our last day, we were focused on building high trust duos, and we had everybody in ATVs, the side by sides, and they would take turns driving, and every pair drove with the other another person.
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:40.480
And for part of it, we wanted to also focus on you know, listening, communication, micro corrections, and then what it feels like when you lose visibility and control.
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:42.239
It was kind of a delegation thing.
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.800
So we blindfolded the driver, and only the passenger gave instructions.
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:53.679
And we had just been doing some really difficult terrain, but we got we knew with the guides, we got them onto flat terrain right around the corner.
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:58.639
So everybody kind of blindfolded up, and then we're turning the corner, and they think it's gonna be more kind of crazy stuff.
00:43:58.800 --> 00:43:59.760
So they're kind of explaining.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.159
Expecting, but they're definitely facing that fear like this is crazy.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:06.239
I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do this.
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:08.239
Why are we doing this that anyway?
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:13.199
And all of those kind of imposter feelings we were able to facilitate with a little bit of fear.
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.599
And I think sometimes that can help.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:21.920
It certainly created a powerful, memorable experience that that gave us all we needed in the debrief.
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:27.840
But I think those are those are some times where I'm not necessarily trying to create imposter syndrome.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:36.159
I'm trying to be aware when it appears, use it as an intervention, and then have a dialogue about what do we do with it now.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:40.719
But those are a couple recent ones where the imposter syndrome absolutely showed up.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:42.400
Very cool, very cool experience.
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:51.360
I'm kind of picturing myself in that, trying to think of how I would feel if I was blindfolded and Steve McKeon was on the wheel driving.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:54.960
Super nervous about that scenario.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:57.119
So it's a great way to talk about trust.
00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:57.519
Yeah.
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:05.039
And and it was funny, there was one point where there were there were three duos, and at one point they were all on like a single track, and I was behind them.
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:11.119
And all of a sudden, they all started to move in different directions, even though we were on the same single track.
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:14.400
So I had a good video of these guys moving in different directions.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:20.000
Like, even when we think we're on the right path, things can change depending on who you're working with.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:21.440
That's a good point.
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.119
To wrap up here, we're closing in on time here.
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:26.480
Excellent conversation.
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:36.480
Mike, if you had to go back in time, and this is specifically think of those moments around hey, I that imposter phenomenon occurring moment.
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:40.400
What what would you tell yourself?
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:48.559
What little bit of knowledge would you share, or morsel of knowledge would you share with yourself back in the day if you could go back in time and talk to yourself?
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:50.960
I think I would say two things.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.360
The first thing I would say is slow down.
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:00.800
I remember working when I was at Gallo, I just joined Doug Rivesteck's team.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:02.559
I'll shout him out in case he's listening.
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:03.039
Yeah.
00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:06.880
And within like three days, I was like, what are the organizational goals and what are the ones that I'm going to be?
00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:09.760
And he's like, Mike, you don't know anybody.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:13.679
Like, maybe you want to build some relationships.
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:18.400
So I think like being less worried about am I doing enough?
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:19.760
Am I achieving enough?
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:30.960
And just slowing down and building relationships, paying attention, like being more observant of the culture around me so I can find the grain, and that'll make it easier for me to do change initiatives.
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:37.599
And then I think the other thing that I would give myself is an inquiry that I give myself all the time now.
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:39.199
What if it works?
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.039
We spend so much time thinking about what might happen and the risk.
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:44.400
And the what if it works?
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:48.159
Like, what if it all works out as it was supposed to be, or maybe even better?
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:52.559
I now allow myself the pleasure to dance in that question.
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:56.960
And that tends to lead to some surprising success.
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.960
It's almost like if you're on a motorcycle, you're gonna go and you're taking a turn.
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:03.199
Like you're gonna drive where you're looking.
00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:05.599
If you're looking at the road, you're gonna go on the road.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:08.159
If you're looking at the ditch, well, that's probably where you're gonna go.
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:12.000
So maybe spend a little more time on the sunny side and thinking about what if it works.
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:13.679
Great advice, Mike.
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:14.079
Yep.
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.159
I wish I had told myself that.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:22.480
Well, well, when that time machine gets created, you you know your your the first things on your list will be now.
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:32.159
Mike, I just wanted to say I I think that today's topic, as you know, is is definitely very personal to me.
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:34.639
I really appreciate your insight.
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.199
You know, you sharing experiences.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:43.679
I think that that is is really helpful, not just to me, but I know it will be helpful to many others as well.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:48.880
Yeah, Mike, just uh want to thank you for validating everything we've been telling Alex for years.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:51.840
And uh for whatever reason, he listened to you.
00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:02.079
No, but just you actually you shared just a minute ago advice you gave Lupe Alex and I not very long ago in doing some training, right?
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.280
And just kind of, hey, stop worrying about what's not gonna happen, just go do it and see what happens, right?
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:12.079
So I that's just great advice, and I I can't emphasize that point enough.
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:14.000
I think that's something we can all benefit with.
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.400
Mike, it's been a blast talking to you.
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:19.840
We appreciate your time and and you sharing your knowledge.
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:28.480
I would not have a problem if you were like the most common guest uh on the leadership exchange with what you bring to the conversation.
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:29.360
So I love it.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:29.760
I love it.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.000
I'd be like a regular, like Norman Cheers.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:33.280
There you go.
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:34.159
Yeah.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:36.079
That'd be awesome.
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:41.280
Appreciate connecting with you, and it's it's been a blast talking about this topic.
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:44.159
But we must end the episode today.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.960
So, with that said, um, I'm Lupe Munoz.
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:49.840
I'm Alex Duranda, and I'm Steve McKeon.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.679
Thank you for joining us and Mike Sweeney on the Leadership Exchange.
00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:55.280
Have a great day.