An Educator's Guide to ADHD

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JOHN: Each student brings
individual strengths and challenges
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to our classroom communities.
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In this episode, we explore
ways to help students with
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ADHD thrive.
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[MUSIC]
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Thanks for joining us for Tea for
Teaching, an informal discussion
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of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
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REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist...
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JOHN: ...and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer...
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REBECCA: ...and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
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to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
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[MUSIC]
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Our guest today is Karen Costa.
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Karen is a faculty development
facilitator specializing in online
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pedagogy, trauma-aware teaching,
and supporting ADHD learners.
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Karen holds graduate degrees
and certificates in education
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and education leadership; trauma
and resilience; trauma-informed
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organizations; and neuroscience,
learning, and online instruction.
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She is the author of 99 Tips for Creating
Simple and Sustainable Educational Videos,
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and has served as a facilitator for the
Online Learning Consortium, the Online
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Learning Toolkit, and Lumen Learning.
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Her most recent book, An Educator’s
Guide to ADHD, has just been
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released by Johns Hopkins Press.
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Through her business, 100 Faculty,
Karen offers supportive, fun, and
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engaging faculty support and development
to faculty from all over the world.
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Welcome back, Karen.
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KAREN: Thank you.
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I've been here before a couple times.
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It's been a while, and I just want to say
I'm so impressed with your continued work,
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that you are able to put these incredibly
helpful podcasts out into the world.
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I think the first time we talked
was around COVID lockdowns, about
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trauma, and you're still doing
this, and I find that so impressive.
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Thank you for all that you do.
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JOHN: In fact, your first podcast with
us during the pandemic was our most
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popular podcast ever, and it remains
so, it's still number one on our hit
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list of the most popular podcasts.
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KAREN: Well, that wasn't me.
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That was because people were
trapped at home and desperate
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for some kind of simulation.
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So I can't take credit for that.
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JOHN: You provided some help that they
desperately needed during that time.
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KAREN: I'm glad you said that.
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I do get nervous about these
things, but I think you all are
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my first sort of podcast stop.
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I'm talking about this book, and it's a
little different, because the book's not
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just about helping students and helping
teachers, but it's about me and being
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somebody with ADHD and late diagnosed
and all that comes with that, and I
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speak pretty openly about it, but there
is an element of vulnerability to that.
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So I gave myself a little extra TLC
this morning, reminding myself that
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it's normal to feel that vulnerability.
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I'm really glad to be having this first
initial conversation with the book with
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you two who are so kind and welcoming
and making me feel right at home.
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JOHN: And speaking of TLC,
do you have tea today?
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KAREN: I don't think I've ever
had tea when I'm with y'all.
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JOHN: You're one of many.
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KAREN: I don't pretend, and I
like to think I'm a truth teller.
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So I'm drinking a nice, crisp, cool, Polar
lemon seltzer, because when I do podcast
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interviews or talks, I do tend to get
warm, and there's a non-zero chance these
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days that that could lead to a hot flash.
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So there's no tea, and
I'm keeping things cool.
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So to our listeners who also need to keep
things cool, you are seen and supported.
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REBECCA: You can have iced tea.
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KAREN: Iced tea, yeah, I have to
limit, while this is another ADHD
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story for another day, but yeah, I
got to be careful about the caffeine.
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There's probably a decaf.
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I'll explore it.
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REBECCA: Maybe next time.
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Today I have a Kenilworth pekoe tea.
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JOHN: Very nice.
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Was this one you picked up in England too.
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REBECCA: This is from Scotland.
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KAREN: You went to the UK recently.
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REBECCA: It was last
summer, but I stocked up.
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KAREN: Oh, I'm sure.
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I lived in London in college for study
abroad, so I never made it to Scotland.
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That's on my list.
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I'm jealous.
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JOHN: And I just have a mint tea,
which I picked up in the local Wegmans.
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REBECCA: Still important.
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All right, now that we're all
hydrated, we invited you here today
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to discuss An Educators Guide to ADHD.
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Can you tell us a little bit about
the origin story of this book?
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KAREN: I always find that an interesting
question, because we could go pretty
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far back, generationally speaking.
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There's some stories there, but we don't
have that much time today, so [LAUGHTER]
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I'll come into the nearer future.
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A few years ago, I read a book called
Atomic Habits by the author, James Clear.
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I love reading nonfiction.
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I'm usually reading, because I am ADHD.
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The way I read nonfiction, I usually
read four or five at the same time
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and sort of cycle through them,
because that's how my brain works.
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I really enjoy self-
development type books.
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I know how to take what I need from them
and leave the rest, because they often
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have things I don't agree with and things
that aren't helpful, but I can usually
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take a nugget or two, and the message
I took from Atomic Habits was to focus
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on systems more than habits, which is
something I had already been doing, but
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it kind of named that for me in a new way.
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I got excited about it, and I talked
about it a little on social media, and
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I got some, not a lot of, pushback, but
some of the pushback was of the don't
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do that, don't read books like that.
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You'd be better off taking a nap and
resting, sort of like people who don't
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really support or like that, quote,
unquote, business bros, type of advice.
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And I found that sort of pushback
really concerning, because systems
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for people with ADHD are really life
saving, sort of like assistive devices.
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And so I wrote an article about it
called “Systems Aren't Scary,” and I
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think it came out on Halloween, which
is we're recording this the day before
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Halloween. That's why I called it “Systems
Aren't Scary” because I'm so clever.
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And Jim Lang and Derek Krissoff,
who were at the time, at West
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Virginia University WVU press.
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I was talking to them about writing
another book, and they saw that article,
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and they said, “Oh, can you write this
book instead?” And I said, “Okay, sure.”
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Long story short, a lot went down at WVU
a few years ago, and Jim and Derek moved
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on, and I moved on, and was really happy
to end up through the leadership of Greg
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Britton at Johns Hopkins University Press.
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The book is coming out.
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At the time of this recording, it's
October, so I think you'll be hearing
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it, right around comes out January,
20, 2026 it's been a long and winding
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road, changing publishers like that.
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For somebody with ADHD who struggled with
finishing things, it was interesting.
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I'm proud of myself that I stuck with it.
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Writing a book is an incredibly
long process, slow process.
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I like to do things like
immediately and quick.
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So book writing is sort of out of
my comfort zones, but I really want
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to have this in the hands of people.
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I want the generations coming behind
me to have it better than I did, and
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I really want people to understand
ADHD for what it is, and to make the
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world a better place for my fellow
ADHDers, so I'm glad that I stuck
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with it and got it out into the world.
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JOHN: You begin the book with an analogy
between ADHD and living in a house that's
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open to the elements, in terms of both
the advantages and the disadvantages.
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Could you share this
analogy with our listeners?
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Because I thought it was a
great introduction to your book.
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KAREN: Oh, thank you.
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I changed that introduction 17 times.
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It's lovely to hear that.
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It's such a funny thing.
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Book writing is such a solitary process.
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So just starting the stage where
I get to hear from learners who've
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read the book is very exciting.
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So give me a minute here to be like,
“Oh, that's so cool, John read my
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introduction.” I like analogies.
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The analogy is, imagine that
you're living in a house with the
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windows thrown open, no screens.
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You are just sort of at
one with the elements.
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You have a certain layer of
protection, but you can hear birdsong.
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Maybe birds even fly into your house.
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Maybe the cute, adorable forest
animals come into your house as well.
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You sort of got like a Snow White vibe.
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Your neighbor walks by the house.
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You can call out to her while she's
walking her dog, and say, “Come over
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and have a chat. Have a coffee.” You
can pass her coffee through the window.
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We can imagine sort of this combination
of those really lovely positive
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aspects, but also you're going to
have the not cute forest animals
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and the mosquitoes in your house.
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It's probably going to be noisy.
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You're much more exposed to the elements.
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So it's this combination of
strengths and challenges.
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We can imagine the neurotypical house
as being more similar to a house
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with the windows closed, so you have
certain protection from those elements.
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There is sort of a more fixed
or closed or rigid nature to it.
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I'm not using those terms as
positive or negative, just trying
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to describe that experience.
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And there's positives to that, right?
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It keeps out the pests.
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However, you're not going to get
to hear the bird song either.
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There's pros and cons.
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Another analogy, I don't think this
is in the book, but I'll share with
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people that I often have been thinking
about lately, is if you want to cook
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spaghetti, you use a pot, and that's
where you boil the water and you cook
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the pasta in the pot, and then you
want to drain the water out of the pot.
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So you use a colander or a drainer.
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And one of the ways we can think
about ADHD as like the colander or
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drainer, and we might think of the
neurotypical person more like the pot.
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You wouldn't say, like, oh, the
colander is better than the pot, or
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the pot's better than the calendar.
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They're different.
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They have different benefits
and different drawbacks.
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You're not going to cook
the pasta in the colander.
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You're not going to drain
the pasta in the pot.
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So there's lots of metaphors
that we can think of ADHD, but
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this more sort of open fluidity.
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And a word I'm using a lot lately
is porousness, because I think
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that word has less, sort of like
goodness or badness attached to it.
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It's kind of more like it's
just the nature of the item.
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So thinking about the ADHD brain
and neurotype as more porous, which
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comes with challenges, but it also
comes with strengths, so that more
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fluid or porous brain or neurotype
or experience has a lot, a lot of
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benefits, which I talk about in the
book, and it has a lot of challenges.
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And that's where we can
meet folks with ADHD.
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REBECCA: A growing share of
students are diagnosed with ADHD.
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Can you talk a little bit more
about whether or not this is because
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more people are being tested?
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KAREN: When I wrote the book, I didn't
expect ADHD and autism to be in the
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news, as they have been recently
this past year, in quite that way.
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There's a lot of conversation
happening on this, a lot of
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interest, and that boggles the mind.
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We don't have any evidence, despite
what you may have read or seen
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on the news, we don't have any
evidence that ADHD is growing.
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It's kind of presented as like
this monster that's out of
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control and we have to contain it.
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That's not what's actually happening.
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We are seeing things like
a decrease in stigma.
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A lot of that is due to social media,
and a lot of that is due to specifically
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conversations that happened during
the pandemic where a lot more folks
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sort of came online and came onto
social media and were speaking more
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openly about some of those challenges.
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We also know that, particularly later in
life diagnosed folks, crises or massive
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changes will often precede a diagnosis.
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So a lot of the people who [LAUGHTER]
were in a structured work environment
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and then got sent home with all their
stuff one day, [LAUGHTER] and had to
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live in a very unstructured environment
that is often cited as one of the reasons
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a lot of people realized something's
going on here, because that external
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structure of the workplace went away.
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So, that didn't create
the ADHD, It revealed it.
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We have no data, and there's no
evidence that this is something that is
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growing because of… I don't even know.
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I try not to listen to these people.
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I don't want to give
them too much attention.
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But there's no evidence that it's growing.
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It is likely due to an increase in
awareness, a reduction in stigma.
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Social media is motivating people to
realize things about themselves, and many
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folks have been saying, “I want to get
tested,” or folks are self diagnosing.
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So we're seeing sort of a rise in
awareness about ADHD, which I think
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is a really good thing, because I talk
about diagnosis as a map in the book,
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and whether we can talk more about
this formal clinical diagnosis or self
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diagnosis, diagnosis can be a map, and
it typically can be a map to support
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,whether that's through medical treatment,
through lifestyle design, or to community.
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And for me, that was one of the
biggest pieces of the puzzle, was
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finding people like me who I can
talk to about this experience and
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know that I'm not alone in that.
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So we see that, when done right and
supported, diagnosis can lead to a massive
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reduction in shame, which is one of the
biggest challenges for people with ADHD.
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Diagnosis is increasing more
because of awareness and access,
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and generally speaking, it can
be a really good thing because it
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connects ADHD or their communities.
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REBECCA: Folks feel less stigmatized
who have ADHD is becoming evident in
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university environments because people
are speaking out more openly about such
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a diagnosis and also asking for supports
and having really healthy conversations.
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I know that I've had some of those
conversations with students in ways that
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I wasn't having previously, because the
students brought that conversation to
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the table, which I think is really great.
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KAREN: I think that's great,
and two things can be true.
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So I think we are seeing a
decrease in stigma, and I think
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like [LAUGHTER] we were starting
from a really, really bad place.
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So like, any improvement is good, but I
will tell you, I get messages from people
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all the time, private messages, like
through social media or email, and it's
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from people who are working in higher ed
who either are ADHD or suspect they're
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ADHD, and they're coming to me privately
to ask for advice because they don't
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feel they can speak about it publicly.
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I talk about it because I try to use
the privileges that I have to, again,
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make things better for people who don't
have the privileges and protections.
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I like to be honest, the biggest reason
I'm able to talk about this is because
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my husband has a stable job that
provides me access to quality healthcare.
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As an adjunct.
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If I didn't have that access, would
I be speaking about this publicly?
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I don't know, because I can't live
without… I don't really think anybody
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can, but I have chronic health issues,
and I need a lot of support with my
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various diagnoses, so if I didn't have
that, I wouldn't be able to do this.
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Yes, I think two things are true,
and we'll never be bored, because
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we have so much work to do and
so many areas of opportunity.
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So we won't be bored, is the good news.
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REBECCA: I really appreciate you
also just addressing and drawing
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attention to the differences of
experiences often that students might
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have from faculty and staff too.
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This is true around accommodations and
all kinds of things related to disability.
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KAREN: I want to speak on
the accommodations piece.
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That was one of the most
intense parts of the book.
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There's a page in the book where I write
about the process to get a diagnosis.
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Because right now in higher education,
our accommodations model, in order
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to access learning through formal
accommodations, students have to come
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in with a formal clinical diagnosis.
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And I forget exactly how many
steps I wrote out in that
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process, but it was like 18 steps.
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That made me feel pretty sick about
that, that that's the model that
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we're using, and obviously a lot
of folks are designing around that,
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through Universal Design for Learning
and focusing more on accessibility.
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That's how I teach.
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I know so many folks listening
to this teach that way.
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But the idea that the system that we,
who claim to be some of the brightest
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people in the world, have developed has
18 steps in between students and access to
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learning is preposterous and infuriating.
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So again, though, the good
news is no boredom, because
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we have plenty of work to do.
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JOHN: And your book is a
nice, important part of that.
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And the issue you just mentioned
results in a lot of inequity, because
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those steps take time, as well as some
diagnosis that's not free, typically.
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The people who are more likely to get
diagnosed are people who do have the
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privilege of good health insurance
and more free time and other things.
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So the impact is quite
inequitable on students.
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KAREN: Absolutely, it's not just
the fact that you are asking
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somebody who has executive function
challenges to go through an 18-step
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process, which is again preposterous.
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It's that even if the person with ADHD
can get through that, we know that
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there are massive inequities around
race, class, and gender in terms of
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access to a formal clinical diagnosis.
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Girls and women are
massively under diagnosed.
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I was one of those girls who
slipped through the cracks until
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I was diagnosed at the age of 40.
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We know that black and brown kids
are less likely to be diagnosed.
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They are more likely to be misdiagnosed,
often with personality disorders, or
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they are funneled into sort of like
the punitive discipline process,
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instead of getting access to their
actual diagnosis that can lead
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them to community and to support.
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You've got this incredibly inequitable
system that's just people are getting
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misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all.
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You get into higher education, and
you say, in order to access what
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you need to learn, there's all these
barriers in place, and a formal
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diagnosis can cost upwards of $3,000
if your insurance doesn't cover it.
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In addition, the most recent diagnostic
appointment I had was eight hours long.
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I had to find somebody
who could do the work.
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I had to drive into Boston, which
is, as the crow flies from where
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I live, it's like 30 minutes, but
Boston traffic, it's like two hours.
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So eight hours out of work and life,
and go in and making the appointment.
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I can go on and on here.
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So just the casualness of how people
talk about like, “Oh, you just need
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a diagnosis,” is just so wrong.
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It's so, so wrong, and
we've got to do better.
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REBECCA: You talked a little bit
already today in our conversation
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about how diagnosis can provide
a little bit of a roadmap.
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Can you expand upon that a little bit,
maybe from your own experience and
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how that provided you with a roadmap?
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KAREN: I have had the experience my
whole life of feeling like an alien.
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This is actually a pretty
common thing among folks who
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identify as neurodivergent.
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There's some writing on this, which I
learned about after I was diagnosed.
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And I was like, “Oh, that's cool.”
This feeling of wrongness, of this
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deep shame, of like, why can I do these
things but not these other things?
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One of the things I talk about in the book
that's really challenging for people with
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ADHD is personal care and dental hygiene.
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This is the vulnerability I
was talking about earlier.
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One of the things I struggle is
remembering to brush my teeth, and not
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just remembering to brush my teeth,
but remembering if I brushed my teeth.
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So if I leave the house, which I
don't too often, because I work from
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home, but anytime I leave the house,
I don't know if I brushed my teeth.
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I can't remember.
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Speaking back to James Clear, I
have a system that I've learned to
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create, and if my husband's home
because he works from home, I'll text
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him and I'll ask him, can you check
my toothbrush to see if it's wet?
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And he knows how to
help me, so he'll check.
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And most of the time, he says “yes,”
but sometimes he says “no,” and I
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drive with a toothbrush and toothpaste
in my car and a bottle of water.
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If I didn't know that I had ADHD,
that's a really, sort of, like,
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scary and demoralizing and shameful
thing of like, what's wrong with me?
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Why can't I figure this out?
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Right?
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Like, I just wrote a book,
I have a master's degree.
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I speak publicly, and most of the time
I think I know what I'm talking about,
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but I can't remember to brush my teeth.
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And that's one of like,
a million examples.
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When you get the diagnosis and
you learn to understand your
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brain, and I understand now why I
don't remember to brush my teeth.
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And I understand how to design a
system, and I understand that the
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most important part of that system
is if I remembered or if I didn't.
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I say to myself, “Karen,
I'm so proud of you.
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I'm so proud that you checked
with your husband and now you
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have your toothbrush in the car.
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I'm so proud of you,” or if I did
remember I say “I'm so proud of you
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that you were…” like either way to
learn how to speak kindly to myself.
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It was just so confusing before when
I didn't know what was going on.
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And those skills have been learned
through therapy and working with
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coach and doing tons of study
on ADHD and things like that.
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There's work involved in that, but
yeah, I think that shame reduction
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piece is so powerful, and you find
people like yourself, like one of the
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books I talk about most in my book is
the book ADHD 2.0 by Ned Hallowell and
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John Ratey, and they're both medical
doctors, but they both also have ADHD.
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And Dr. Ned, when I was first diagnosed,
seeing him say… he would do these little
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TikToks about what people with ADHD,
and then he would say, people like me.
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And when he said people like me, this
doctor who has written multiple books,
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little pieces of me would start to heal.
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It was the “people like me,” not even the
content that he was talking about. It was
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when he said, “people like me.” And that
is, for me, the beauty of what diagnosis,
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whether clinical or self, can do, is
it can help you find people like you.
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JOHN: So you received some really
nice support from those videos.
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What can faculty do to better
support students who do have ADHD,
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and you mentioned in the book
that faculty need to unlearn what
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they think they know about ADHD.
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Could you talk a little bit about some
of the misconceptions that people have?
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KAREN: The first problem we
have in front of us is the name.
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ADHD stands for attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder, and I've had very
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lovely sort of people who are ingrained
in the clinical or medical model say
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00:22:46,250 --> 00:22:51,060
to me, “that's not deficit based,”
and this has happened to me, so it has
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the word deficit in the name disorder.
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Yeah, so that's not what it is.
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I still use the term ADHD.
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I don't use the term attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder because it is
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obviously deficit based, but it's just
we're learning now that it's incorrect.
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ADHD is not a deficit of attention.
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It is now increasingly being understood
as an abundance of attention.
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And Hallowell and Ratey are
on the leading edge of this.
390
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But we're also seeing this influx
of researchers who have ADHD coming
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into the field, and the framing of
research studies and how you approach
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them, obviously impacts the outcomes.
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I know I've got a lot of research folks
that are listening, and when you bring
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folks in who've actually lived with this
neurotype, you open up this whole world.
395
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We are learning so much more about
what ADHD is and isn't, and one of
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the biggest misconceptions is that
it is either deficit or superpower.
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So I use this model of strengths-based,
challenge-aware, which I think
398
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is a much more middle path.
399
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,830
It is not fully a deficit;
i t does include challenges.
400
00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:06,340
I don't like when people say it's
a superpower, because my family and
401
00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:10,210
I are fans of superhero movies, and
all the superheroes are intensely
402
00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:13,119
miserable, and it has ruined their lives.
403
00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:18,490
I talk about Tobey Maguire Spider Man
meme in the book, where he's just the
404
00:24:18,490 --> 00:24:20,090
most miserable human on the planet.
405
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:24,520
Superheroes are not generally healthy
and happy, well-balanced people.
406
00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:27,350
So I like to really bring
people into this middle path.
407
00:24:27,679 --> 00:24:28,830
This is a neurotype.
408
00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:32,589
Another way we can think
of it as a brain style.
409
00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:38,450
It is part of the natural, vast
variety of life and ways of being
410
00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:42,480
in the world, and it comes with
challenges, and it comes with strengths.
411
00:24:42,790 --> 00:24:44,230
And I go into this in the book.
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We are taught that there's one right
way to be, the neurotypical way of
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being, and that anybody who diverges
from that is both weak and threatening.
414
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,730
The reason we do that is so that
we can then deny those people
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00:24:54,730 --> 00:24:56,820
resources, its not rocket science.
416
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:03,330
So it's really quite a radical
thing for folks to say, “Wait a
417
00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:05,250
minute, I'm not weak or threatening.
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00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,910
I'm part of the vast variety and natural
neurodiversity that is part of the entire
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world.” And if you, as an educator, can
shift your mind into that, you will not
420
00:25:15,470 --> 00:25:19,690
only be better supporting your students,
but you're really also sort of working
421
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toward a brighter, better future where we
can move beyond some of those limitations.
422
00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:28,419
The biggest thing is to also
bring in those strengths.
423
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And I want educators to
know this is like a win-win.
424
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Your ADHD students are the creative
geniuses of the world, and they are
425
00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:42,120
little engagement fireworks that you
can be igniting in your classrooms.
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00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:45,610
That's the number one thing educators
tell me that they want to do in their
427
00:25:45,610 --> 00:25:51,980
classroom is to engage their students,
and your ADHDers are just like human
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vacuum cleaners who love to consume
information, love to learn, have so
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00:25:57,540 --> 00:26:03,130
many ideas, they’re gifts and assets
to our world and to our classrooms.
430
00:26:03,719 --> 00:26:07,420
The most important thing that you
can do as an educator is to get your
431
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mindset in check about what ADHD is.
432
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Get rid of the deficit.
433
00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:14,540
Get rid of the idea that
there's something wrong with us.
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We are part of the natural
variation of the many neurotypes
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00:26:18,219 --> 00:26:19,919
and ways of being in the world.
436
00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:21,510
We have challenges.
437
00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:24,710
We need help, we need support,
but we also come to your
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classrooms with so many strengths.
439
00:26:26,910 --> 00:26:30,410
So if you can come into your
classroom with that mindset, you're
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going to reduce shame, and you're
going to design inclusive learning
441
00:26:33,780 --> 00:26:35,179
experiences for your ADHDers.
442
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:40,150
REBECCA: Can you talk a little bit about
some practices in the classroom that
443
00:26:40,199 --> 00:26:44,860
can help lean on some of those strengths
and help address some of the challenges.
444
00:26:45,420 --> 00:26:49,840
KAREN: The first rule of
supporting folks with ADHD is
445
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:52,140
externalize everything possible.
446
00:26:52,750 --> 00:26:55,820
Our working memory, as
ADHDers, I mentioned this
447
00:26:55,820 --> 00:26:57,240
word before, is very porous.
448
00:26:58,059 --> 00:27:02,330
An example of that is if I leave this
room of my house that I'm in now, and I
449
00:27:02,330 --> 00:27:07,490
go into another room with the intention
of putting on a different pair of socks.
450
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,539
When I get into that other room, I will
have no recollection of why I'm in there.
451
00:27:13,099 --> 00:27:16,089
If I need to do that, what I
will do is I externalize it.
452
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,750
As soon as I say “I need to change my
socks,” I will walk into the other room
453
00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:24,140
and I will repeat to myself, “change
shocks, change socks, change socks.”
454
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,870
I'm making it external, because I'm
not able to hold change socks in my
455
00:27:29,870 --> 00:27:34,290
working memory, so that when I get to
the other room, I can take that action.
456
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:39,899
This saying “in one ear and out the
other.” is how my working memory works,
457
00:27:40,270 --> 00:27:41,590
[LAUGHTER] or doesn't, for that matter.
458
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:42,440
It's porous.
459
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,569
The thing is that, I want to say
this quickly, that porosity is
460
00:27:47,639 --> 00:27:49,199
the reason behind our creativity.
461
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:51,090
Let's go back to the open windows.
462
00:27:51,099 --> 00:27:52,090
So that's why we're getting birdsong.
463
00:27:52,770 --> 00:27:57,020
That's why we are getting to play with
the squirrels and have all that fun.
464
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:03,649
That flowing creative energy is Hallowell
and Ratey, call it “the paradoxical
465
00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:08,570
pairs.” The flip side of that is we
can't hold things in our working memory.
466
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:10,009
So this is what you got to do.
467
00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:11,419
Everything is external.
468
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,679
Everything gets written down.
469
00:28:12,990 --> 00:28:16,720
What you don't want to do is like, if
you're on site and your students are
470
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,220
walking out of class, time is up, you yell
out the door, like, “Don't forget, I want
471
00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:26,059
you to read pages 72 to 77 next week,” or
whatever, in one ear and out the other.
472
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,649
The second it's out of your mouth.
473
00:28:27,650 --> 00:28:29,190
It no longer exists to me.
474
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,910
Things need to be put into
emails, put into task lists.
475
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:38,680
We need to be putting things in
multiple modalities so that it's
476
00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:40,860
something that we can see and touch.
477
00:28:41,309 --> 00:28:43,359
I use multiple alarms.
478
00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:46,150
So I use like things that I
can hear, things that I can
479
00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:47,540
see, things that I can touch.
480
00:28:48,020 --> 00:28:49,760
And there's always multiple layers.
481
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:54,140
Task lists are really a
lot of bang for your buck.
482
00:28:54,490 --> 00:28:56,020
What do you want people to do this week?
483
00:28:56,450 --> 00:28:58,659
And it's got to be something
I can see and touch.
484
00:28:59,270 --> 00:29:03,330
Couple other things I'll mention,
metacognitive, or what I talk about
485
00:29:03,339 --> 00:29:04,710
in the book, is meta learning.
486
00:29:05,330 --> 00:29:07,550
So metacognition is
learning about learning.
487
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,580
Meta learning is sort of just
like a more expansive way of
488
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,670
not being quite so brain bound.
489
00:29:14,150 --> 00:29:15,730
Giving students a chance.
490
00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:19,050
I'll name the elephant in the
room, the AI elephant in the room.
491
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,949
I'm seeing a lot of folks who are
linking metacognition to some of the
492
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,980
pedagogical strategies we can use in the
AI era, having a greater focus on process
493
00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:32,959
rather than product, and metacognition
and meta learning is great for this.
494
00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:35,980
So asking students, how
do you plan to do this?
495
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,539
And then after they do it, what
did you learn from what you did?
496
00:29:39,980 --> 00:29:43,680
It's great for everybody, but it's
particularly great for ADHDers, because
497
00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:50,350
we get to explore our process and what
works best for our brains, and then the
498
00:29:50,350 --> 00:29:54,500
reflection afterwards, we get to see if it
worked, and then we can redesign as we go.
499
00:29:54,910 --> 00:29:58,590
That's a much better process than
you imposing what you think your
500
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,180
ADHD students should be doing.
501
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,530
You're putting them in the
driver's seat of your learning.
502
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,730
This metacognition should really be
much more intensely built into all
503
00:30:06,730 --> 00:30:11,040
our courses, but it's a particularly
powerful strategy for ADHDers.
504
00:30:11,469 --> 00:30:16,680
Fun fact, somebody who got their hands…
I didn't end up having to work with this
505
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,610
person … [LAUGHTER] on an early copy
of my book, who was from the clinical
506
00:30:20,610 --> 00:30:26,880
field, said pretty much word for word,
“ADHDers can't do metacognition,”
507
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:33,419
and there's reams of data of how
good metacognition is for ADHDers.
508
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,059
We absolutely can do it, and it
benefits us, but there are still so
509
00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:42,380
many people out there who have this
idea of like ADHDers can't do that.
510
00:30:42,690 --> 00:30:46,610
That very ableist mindset
is alive and well.
511
00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:48,889
But read the book.
512
00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:52,069
There's tons of research
in there to support this.
513
00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:56,670
The beauty of this is you're not trying
to make them be a neurotypical student.
514
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:59,139
You're empowering them to
figure out what works for them.
515
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,710
I could keep going, but I know we
don't have all day, so I'll stop there.
516
00:31:02,820 --> 00:31:03,990
Read the book for more ideas.
517
00:31:04,990 --> 00:31:09,120
JOHN: Those techniques you've talked
about are good for everybody, and they’re
518
00:31:09,139 --> 00:31:13,030
parts of inclusive teaching practices,
which suggests that a lot of inclusive
519
00:31:13,030 --> 00:31:17,550
teaching practices will work for a
wide variety of students with a wide
520
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,700
variety of backgrounds [LAUGHTER] and
needs, desires, interest and motivation.
521
00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:25,399
This is really good
advice for all students.
522
00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:29,770
One of the things that you've talked
a little bit about is that deficit
523
00:31:29,779 --> 00:31:33,939
mindset, and one of the things you
suggest is that, as you have already
524
00:31:33,940 --> 00:31:36,650
mentioned, the term ADHD is a misnomer.
525
00:31:36,650 --> 00:31:40,940
And you suggest an alternative
ON, or the open neurotype.
526
00:31:41,270 --> 00:31:45,890
Do you think using a more neutral term
like that might help shift people from
527
00:31:46,109 --> 00:31:51,240
the deficit model to a more accurate
representation of our students?
528
00:31:51,860 --> 00:31:55,430
KAREN: I thought I would have some
fun with it and say, If I could
529
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:58,480
rename ADHD, what would I name it?
530
00:31:58,530 --> 00:32:03,090
And I landed on open neurotype,
because ADHDers, we are often “on,”
531
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:08,240
I don't know if we have an offsetting
that's one of the best parts about us.
532
00:32:08,650 --> 00:32:12,540
We have what the French would call
a joie de vivre, a joy in life.
533
00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:16,280
One of our challenges
is never turning off.
534
00:32:16,290 --> 00:32:17,949
It can be quite exhausting.
535
00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:25,889
“On” worked for that reason, but it also
worked in that idea of a neurotype is one
536
00:32:25,890 --> 00:32:32,410
of the words I use to describe these, I
don't like the word conditions, but some
537
00:32:32,410 --> 00:32:33,660
folks are still using the word conditions.
538
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:35,749
It's a better word than conditions.
539
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:38,169
It's not a disorder, and it's not
a condition, it's a neurotype.
540
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:45,209
It's a brain style, and then open is
talking to that fluidity, that porosity,
541
00:32:45,220 --> 00:32:53,110
that flow, that is the best part
of our ADHD learners, and it's also
542
00:32:53,450 --> 00:32:55,320
the root of many of our challenges.
543
00:32:55,750 --> 00:33:00,999
I don't know how we get from
attention deficit hyperactivity
544
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,000
disorder to something like ON.
545
00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:09,820
I do know that if the word deficits
in the name, then it's deficit based.
546
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:16,150
So again, the way I'm doing it is I'm
very transparent about my language
547
00:33:16,150 --> 00:33:21,110
choices, and I talk in the book and I
say, like, I'm going to use ADHD, I'm
548
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:24,190
going to tell you what it stands for,
and then I'm not going to use that term
549
00:33:24,190 --> 00:33:26,459
again, and that's what I do in my work.
550
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:32,929
And I hope that, again, as we have this
influx of ADHD researchers coming into
551
00:33:32,929 --> 00:33:38,710
the field and a lot more advocacy going
on, I hope that we start to lean into more
552
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,450
inclusive terms, just as one other example
in the ADHD 2.0 book, they use the term
553
00:33:44,460 --> 00:33:50,910
VAST, variable attention stimulus trait,
that is their alternative term for ADHD.
554
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:56,080
And you'll notice variable
attention is speaking to the fact
555
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,560
that ADHD is, once again, I'll say
it, not a deficit of attention.
556
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:07,409
And stimulus trait is a much more
flexible way of looking at this, not as a
557
00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:09,630
disorder, but as a collection of traits.
558
00:34:10,659 --> 00:34:15,030
JOHN: And the use of the VAST term, too,
points out that there's a whole spectrum
559
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,970
in which people may have their attention.
560
00:34:16,980 --> 00:34:20,239
It could be very narrowly focused,
or it could be much more open.
561
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,630
And we have a wide variety of
people, and we should be trying
562
00:34:23,630 --> 00:34:25,279
to address the needs of everyone.
563
00:34:25,790 --> 00:34:29,399
KAREN: I talk in the book about there's
this relationship between neurodiversity
564
00:34:31,009 --> 00:34:33,709
and biodiversity, which I find very
fascinating, because we're seeing
565
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:39,599
that biodiversity is under attack,
and a big part of some of the worst
566
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,350
climate outcomes we're seeing are
related to the loss of biodiversity.
567
00:34:43,610 --> 00:34:48,319
And some of the original creators
of this term neurodiversity were
568
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,650
modeling it off of biodiversity.
569
00:34:51,330 --> 00:34:54,420
And the idea is that if you look
around the world, you see millions
570
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:56,950
of ways that life expresses itself.
571
00:34:57,179 --> 00:35:00,779
There's not one way to be alive,
and neurodiversity is lined up
572
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:04,869
with that, there's not one way of
being a human being and expressing
573
00:35:04,869 --> 00:35:06,380
yourself and experiencing the world.
574
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,740
There's a seemingly
infinite number of ways.
575
00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:13,779
So that vast variety is why life persists.
576
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,689
Life didn't put all its eggs
in one basket, [LAUGHTER]
577
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:18,490
sort of like why life is here.
578
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:19,630
It's a good thing.
579
00:35:19,849 --> 00:35:22,090
There is strength in diversity.
580
00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:26,100
I want to say the word diversity like
100 times a day, because we're being
581
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:27,460
told we're not allowed to say it.
582
00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:29,690
It's why we are here.
583
00:35:30,060 --> 00:35:31,780
Diversity is strength.
584
00:35:31,980 --> 00:35:35,190
So whether it's neurodiversity,
racial diversity, gender
585
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:37,230
diversity, diversity is strength.
586
00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:42,129
And I just want to say it a million times,
because people don't seem to get it.
587
00:35:42,170 --> 00:35:45,910
And neurodiversity, biodiversity,
we need to celebrate it all.
588
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:48,680
REBECCA: I wanted to circle
back to the idea of attention.
589
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:51,680
One of the phrases you used
earlier and you use in your
590
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,190
book, is that, like abundance of
attention, I find really delightful.
591
00:35:55,460 --> 00:35:59,080
But we also hear a lot from
faculty of concerns about paying
592
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:05,330
attention or distraction or
focus, all those kinds of words.
593
00:36:05,820 --> 00:36:10,680
Can you talk a little bit more
about this range of attention and
594
00:36:11,099 --> 00:36:15,649
why maybe this narrow focus on how
the term is used is problematic.
595
00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:19,670
KAREN: This one could probably be
a book in and of itself, one of the
596
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:24,069
first things that people can do if they
want to explore this, a fascinating
597
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:30,520
exploration is look at the different
words and terms we use across various
598
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,710
languages to describe attention.
599
00:36:33,179 --> 00:36:38,790
So I'm studying French later in
life, which is a very ADHD thing of
600
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:45,000
me, and the French translation is
not to pay attention, but to make
601
00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:48,640
or do attention, which is a very
different way of looking at it.
602
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:54,010
Isn't it interesting that in America,
attention is something that we pay, so
603
00:36:54,010 --> 00:36:58,080
there's a little like, “Hmm, let's be
curious about what's actually going on
604
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,609
here.” There's a book I talk about in my
book called The Open Focus Brain, by this
605
00:37:02,610 --> 00:37:08,119
guy, Les Fehmi, and his argument is that
this idea that attention, it should be
606
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:15,870
this very like you're zoning in on one
thing, is very much tied to capitalism,
607
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:19,990
and that's how you are efficient.
608
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:21,780
That's how you're a good worker bee.
609
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,299
That's how you produce the most,
is by zooming in on one thing.
610
00:37:25,950 --> 00:37:30,690
Zooming in on one thing is also what we
want to do if we are like under threat.
611
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:36,980
And he argues that by really cultivating
a single pointed type of attention, we
612
00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:42,910
are training our brains to believe that we
are under threat whenever we are sort of
613
00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:45,829
in that super- focused type of attention.
614
00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:49,950
He presents this alternative called
“open focus.” And anybody who's
615
00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:53,940
listening to this, who's gone through
meditation, I'm like a lifelong…
616
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:59,250
this is another podcast… yoga student
teacher and meditation student teacher.
617
00:37:59,410 --> 00:38:02,480
When you go through the meditation
process, you often learn to start with
618
00:38:02,490 --> 00:38:06,390
single pointed meditation, focusing
on an anchor or your breath, and then
619
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:11,770
you learn to expand out, and you learn
to sit in meditation and be open to
620
00:38:11,850 --> 00:38:15,820
all of the experiences and all of
the noises and all of the sensations.
621
00:38:16,429 --> 00:38:20,439
One of those isn't better than the
other, so open focus is the idea that
622
00:38:20,450 --> 00:38:25,580
we are able to be taking in everything
that's happening around us: the other
623
00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:30,070
students in the classroom, the sound
of the air conditioner, the smells in
624
00:38:30,070 --> 00:38:36,589
the room, ADHDers tend to have that
sort of more open focus that can make
625
00:38:36,590 --> 00:38:42,290
it more challenging for us to be in
that sort of productive, efficient
626
00:38:42,309 --> 00:38:45,100
mode, but it offers many gifts as well.
627
00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:49,200
That's why we're so creative, and why we
are able to connect seemingly disparate
628
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,570
ideas in really interesting ways.
629
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,910
So it's, again, that blessing and a curse.
630
00:38:54,380 --> 00:38:57,829
The other thing that we will do,
ADHDers, when we're in a setting where
631
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,259
you're saying, I've got to zone in and
my focus is open, is that we will do
632
00:39:02,260 --> 00:39:08,290
something called stimming, which is
things like doodling or fidgeting or
633
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:12,660
turning around in our chair, things
like repetitive motions, rocking.
634
00:39:12,770 --> 00:39:14,690
Both ADHD and autistic folks do this.
635
00:39:15,009 --> 00:39:17,069
We're not doing that
because we're distracted.
636
00:39:17,150 --> 00:39:19,420
Doing that helps us to focus.
637
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:23,610
So that's one of the big messages I
guess I'll leave folks with is whatever
638
00:39:23,610 --> 00:39:26,070
you want to call it, you don't know
when people are paying attention.
639
00:39:26,099 --> 00:39:27,420
Attention is very complex.
640
00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:28,200
It's very personal.
641
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,260
It's very diverse.
642
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,239
Stop trying to police
other people's attention.
643
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:34,210
The way that I pay attention.
644
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,640
I mean, my desk is like covered with
little toys and gadgets that I use
645
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,290
behind the scenes [LAUGHTER] in Zoom
meetings to keep myself focused.
646
00:39:41,740 --> 00:39:46,490
If you think attention looks like
sitting still and not moving, you're
647
00:39:46,490 --> 00:39:48,040
going to say she's not paying attention.
648
00:39:48,330 --> 00:39:49,360
I actually am.
649
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,940
I'm deeply paying attention because I'm
doing all of those other things that
650
00:39:53,940 --> 00:39:58,550
give me those external structures that I
need to focus in on what you're saying.
651
00:39:58,620 --> 00:40:01,230
So stop trying to police
people's attention.
652
00:40:01,340 --> 00:40:08,330
Know that open awareness and open focus
is another way of being in the world,
653
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,579
and incredibly valid and important, and
we probably need a lot more of it, and
654
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,480
trust your students to do what they need
to do to be present in your classrooms.
655
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,710
JOHN: A friend of mine is an autism
researcher, and we've talked about it
656
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:24,270
quite a bit in terms of the type of
focus that people with autism have.
657
00:40:24,550 --> 00:40:29,899
As I was reading your description of
ADHD, I was seeing so many connections
658
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:33,580
in terms of the different types of
attention, and you mentioned that
659
00:40:33,830 --> 00:40:38,870
there's an emerging recognition of
an overlap between ADHD and autism.
660
00:40:39,210 --> 00:40:41,999
Can you talk a little bit
about the ways in which they're
661
00:40:42,009 --> 00:40:47,109
connected, or the similarities
that occur in autism and ADHD,
662
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:48,629
KAREN: I can.
663
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,870
So here's a fun little
story for the listeners.
664
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,580
In the middle of writing this
book, I got a second diagnosis.
665
00:40:57,660 --> 00:41:02,259
After getting late in life ADHD
diagnosis, I then got a late in life
666
00:41:02,340 --> 00:41:06,010
autism diagnosis, so am doubly blessed.
667
00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:10,600
And remember the winding journey of
writing the book I mentioned earlier?
668
00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:12,590
Didn't see that one coming either.
669
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,949
So yes, I can speak to this from both
lived experience and the research.
670
00:41:18,389 --> 00:41:26,990
AuDHD is sort of like this new wild
frontier that we are seeing rise up.
671
00:41:27,620 --> 00:41:34,530
I'm really excited for this understanding
of the overlap between autism and ADHD.
672
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,049
I think we're going to be hearing that
term, AuDHD more and more and more in the
673
00:41:40,049 --> 00:41:43,190
coming years, there's a lot of unknowns.
674
00:41:43,310 --> 00:41:48,509
So I have seen data that up to
80% of autistic folks would also
675
00:41:48,510 --> 00:41:50,840
qualify for an ADHD diagnosis.
676
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,480
At that level, [LAUGHTER] you
start to wonder what's going on.
677
00:41:55,599 --> 00:42:01,130
And there are some folks who are
saying, “Are these like the same thing,
678
00:42:01,140 --> 00:42:07,320
and they're manifesting in different
folks differently.” There was a time,
679
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:11,029
up until several years ago, where
you couldn't get both an autism and
680
00:42:11,029 --> 00:42:13,430
an ADHD diagnosis through the DSM.
681
00:42:13,770 --> 00:42:16,980
They said these two things cannot
overlap, and now they're saying
682
00:42:17,359 --> 00:42:19,660
80% of folks with autism have ADHD.
683
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:21,830
So we are learning a lot.
684
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:28,399
There are days when I feel like these
are the same thing, and AuDHD is like
685
00:42:28,399 --> 00:42:33,220
a thing in and of itself, and there are
days when I can feel them as separate
686
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:34,940
entities [LAUGHTER] inside of my head.
687
00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:38,070
And it's hard for me to explain that,
unless you've lived with these neurotypes,
688
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,620
it's a very sort of fluid situation.
689
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,500
I don't know if it's a question we'll
even be able to answer through research.
690
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,870
I think it's more something we're
going to move through and have
691
00:42:47,870 --> 00:42:50,480
to experience and really listen
to people's lived experiences.
692
00:42:50,780 --> 00:42:53,969
But you're going to see a
lot more AuDHDers in your
693
00:42:53,969 --> 00:42:55,840
classes, in your meetings.
694
00:42:56,290 --> 00:43:01,590
The joke is in our community that if you
got a late in life ADHD diagnosis that
695
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,729
you can just chill out for a couple years
and then you just go and pick up your
696
00:43:05,740 --> 00:43:10,940
autism diagnosis as well, because there
are some folks who believe the reason
697
00:43:10,949 --> 00:43:16,069
that they mask each other, and that's
why folks are getting late diagnosed.
698
00:43:16,540 --> 00:43:19,630
One of the ways [LAUGHTER] that I've
heard it talked about is ADHD is the
699
00:43:19,630 --> 00:43:21,649
gas pedal and autism is the brake.
700
00:43:22,010 --> 00:43:25,600
So you're driving a car pressing down the
brake and the gas pedal at the same time.
701
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,830
It makes for an interesting ride,
but there's some evidence that
702
00:43:29,830 --> 00:43:33,240
they're masking each other, no
less challenging for people.
703
00:43:33,250 --> 00:43:36,020
They are no less in need of
support, but there's some
704
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,009
interesting overlaps going on there.
705
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,690
If you're listening to this and this
is something that interests you,
706
00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:44,380
we just need a ton more research
on this, a ton more support.
707
00:43:44,639 --> 00:43:47,649
We need people who are diagnosed
and have lived experiences
708
00:43:47,650 --> 00:43:48,930
leading the charge on this.
709
00:43:49,410 --> 00:43:53,569
But yeah, AuDHD is going to be
pretty big and very interesting
710
00:43:53,570 --> 00:43:55,029
for us to continue to learn about.
711
00:43:55,380 --> 00:43:59,819
REBECCA: So earlier, you mentioned
about Universal Design for Learning
712
00:43:59,830 --> 00:44:02,140
and also accessible design.
713
00:44:02,170 --> 00:44:06,809
Can you talk a little bit about how
those methodologies, frameworks,
714
00:44:06,809 --> 00:44:11,080
might really help all students,
but ADHDers in particular?
715
00:44:11,310 --> 00:44:12,640
KAREN: Yes, absolutely.
716
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:13,220
So.
717
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:19,880
I am a student and a facilitator of
UDL, a practitioner of UDL, a wonderful
718
00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:27,780
approach that helps us address those
accommodations, limitations, fantastic.
719
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:29,260
Two things can be true.
720
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:35,720
My concern about UDL is that sometimes I
feel like it's used to ignore disability
721
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:42,380
or ignore difference, and I've heard
sometimes UDL practitioners say things
722
00:44:42,380 --> 00:44:48,110
like, “We don't even need to talk about
your disability or your ADHD in the
723
00:44:48,110 --> 00:44:52,060
classroom, because we have designed
this accessible learning experience.”
724
00:44:52,450 --> 00:44:59,960
Well, those are parts of me, so UDL
is not intended to wipe that away.
725
00:45:00,510 --> 00:45:03,620
When done well, it should be
inviting that into the experience.
726
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,170
So what I think might be
helpful, I'll give an example.
727
00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:13,319
For me as an educator, I feel like I'm
on the right track when I hear from a
728
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:19,110
student who says I have accommodations,
and I look at their letter and I am able
729
00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:24,250
to respond to them and say, “I'm so glad
you sent me this. All of this is designed
730
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:29,049
into the course already for all students,”
that feels like I'm on the right track.
731
00:45:29,429 --> 00:45:34,479
And I will often disclose, depending
on the situation, and let them know
732
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,810
that this is something I live with,
and I'm proud and happy to be a role
733
00:45:37,810 --> 00:45:40,840
model for them, and I am there to
do anything I can to support them.
734
00:45:40,930 --> 00:45:45,330
I am not a mind reader, so please
keep me updated on anything I can do.
735
00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:49,450
So that's my approach to it, like
I want to notice and I want to
736
00:45:49,460 --> 00:45:54,130
celebrate their identities and
reinforce that throughout the course.
737
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:59,610
I teach, primarily online, asynchronous,
so it's woven into my discussions,
738
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,960
into the conversations we're having,
into my grading, into the types of
739
00:46:04,179 --> 00:46:05,970
resources I share with students.
740
00:46:06,290 --> 00:46:11,060
And it's not disability I want
to eliminate, it's the need for
741
00:46:11,060 --> 00:46:12,920
that letter eventually, right?
742
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,290
Like everything is built into my
course already, I feel like I've
743
00:46:16,290 --> 00:46:20,669
done the right thing when I'm able
to notice and celebrate and thank
744
00:46:20,670 --> 00:46:24,250
that student for sharing that with
me and let them know it's baked
745
00:46:24,250 --> 00:46:25,720
into the course for all students.
746
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:29,879
The last thing I want to say about this
is one thing I don't like about UDL is
747
00:46:29,879 --> 00:46:33,899
when we say, here, “We can do this for
ADHD students,” and people say, “Oh,
748
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:37,400
and Isn't it lovely that it's good for
everybody.” Two things can be true.
749
00:46:37,790 --> 00:46:42,180
Let's let it be just good for
ADHD students, that's good.
750
00:46:42,380 --> 00:46:43,610
That's good on its own.
751
00:46:43,679 --> 00:46:45,089
It's great on its own.
752
00:46:45,420 --> 00:46:51,190
And I recognize that we want to motivate
people to see the many benefits of this.
753
00:46:51,210 --> 00:46:53,370
And it's good for everybody
is a lovely thing.
754
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,779
But I also want us to say that, like,
“If it was just good for ADHD students,
755
00:46:57,969 --> 00:47:02,100
that would be wonderful, too.” So those
two things are happening at the same
756
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:05,129
time for me, and I think that's important
to mention when we talk about UDL.
757
00:47:05,609 --> 00:47:08,950
REBECCA: I appreciate you pointing
out these complexities, that multiple
758
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:10,500
things can be true at the same time.
759
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:13,390
Now that comes up a lot in the
accessibility work that I do as well.
760
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:16,630
So we always wrap up
by asking, what's next?
761
00:47:17,460 --> 00:47:21,189
KAREN: This is coming out in January,
so I'm really excited to get the
762
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:27,529
book out into the world, and hearing
how people are going to react to it
763
00:47:27,530 --> 00:47:29,110
and use it will be exciting for me.
764
00:47:29,490 --> 00:47:35,669
The other thing I'm working on now is
I'm shifting a bit from climate change
765
00:47:35,809 --> 00:47:42,740
mitigation to adaptation in my focus,
which is to say, I'm always very mindful
766
00:47:42,740 --> 00:47:43,950
when I talk about the climate stuff.
767
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:49,339
We need folks who are working to prevent
climate change, and I want people who
768
00:47:49,340 --> 00:47:50,540
are doing that to keep doing that.
769
00:47:50,570 --> 00:47:55,569
I am feeling called to focus more on
adapting to some of the worst impacts
770
00:47:55,570 --> 00:47:57,490
that we're seeing already happening.
771
00:47:57,969 --> 00:48:03,920
And I'm really feeling curious about
things like the fact that we have hundreds
772
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,370
of colleges in coastal areas that we don't
know if they will be able to stay there.
773
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:14,379
So I'm starting to take some classes
on things like forced migration
774
00:48:14,589 --> 00:48:17,310
related to climate change, because
my sense is nobody in higher ed
775
00:48:17,310 --> 00:48:21,100
is talking about this, or very few
people, which is very understandable.
776
00:48:21,330 --> 00:48:22,330
I feel called to do that.
777
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:26,410
I want to support campuses that might need
to relocate, students who might need to
778
00:48:26,410 --> 00:48:33,039
relocate due to climate change, and I very
much want to, in particular, help support
779
00:48:33,110 --> 00:48:38,760
disabled folks who are part of those
changes, and to recognize that our ADHDers
780
00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:45,180
are, I think, the creative folks that we
need to be leading a lot of the changes
781
00:48:45,180 --> 00:48:50,759
that we will need to be making in the next
few decades, in this very volatile era.
782
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:54,409
So one of our greatest strengths
is that creativity piece.
783
00:48:54,660 --> 00:48:58,570
We don't just think in terms of
what has already been proven.
784
00:48:58,890 --> 00:49:02,530
We design and create new
worlds and new ideas.
785
00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:07,229
I think that's why I'm able to do
that work well, and it's a little
786
00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:11,310
disconcerting for some people, but I
feel like it needs to get done, and it's
787
00:49:11,310 --> 00:49:12,680
something I'm feeling curious about.
788
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:14,640
So leaning into that more as well.
789
00:49:15,310 --> 00:49:18,629
JOHN: Certainly an important issue
to be focusing on in a country
790
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:22,600
where we need far more of a focus
on climate change right now.
791
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:23,720
Well, thank you.
792
00:49:24,050 --> 00:49:25,889
I very much enjoyed reading your book.
793
00:49:25,889 --> 00:49:29,260
I think it would be a great book for
reading groups, for any faculty member
794
00:49:29,289 --> 00:49:32,899
to learn more about a non-trivial share
of the students they're working with.
795
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,560
KAREN: The number that I use in the book
is 5 to 10% but I've had classes where
796
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:43,050
up to 40% of my students disclose ADHD,
so I think that 5 to 10% is the tip of
797
00:49:43,050 --> 00:49:48,360
the iceberg, and I also think the vast
majority of our students stop outs and
798
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,290
dropouts are probably undiagnosed ADHD.
799
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:55,490
If I've got anybody out there who's
connected to enrollment management, I
800
00:49:55,490 --> 00:50:01,270
think you've got a huge opportunity here
to help students persist and complete
801
00:50:01,429 --> 00:50:07,430
by considering that lens of undiagnosed
ADHD and higher ed's failure to adapt
802
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,810
to that as a big, big opportunity.
803
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:11,430
REBECCA: Well, thanks
so much for joining us.
804
00:50:11,430 --> 00:50:14,850
We always enjoy talking to you,
Karen, and sharing your work.
805
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,230
KAREN: I am so grateful for both of
you, again, the fact that you are
806
00:50:19,230 --> 00:50:24,629
able to persist and keep doing this is
such a testament to who you are, and
807
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:30,029
so needed in our world and our very
rapidly changing higher ed so thank
808
00:50:30,030 --> 00:50:31,359
you for doing the work that you do.
809
00:50:32,030 --> 00:50:34,470
Action is the antidote to despair.
810
00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:39,359
So everybody's got to find their small
actions or medium or big actions that
811
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:40,999
they can take to help make a difference.
812
00:50:41,180 --> 00:50:43,349
You don't have to save the
world, you just got to do your
813
00:50:52,679 --> 00:50:52,719
part.
814
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:52,819
[MUSIC]
815
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,740
JOHN: If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe and
816
00:50:57,830 --> 00:51:01,970
leave a review on Apple Podcasts
or your favorite podcast service.
817
00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:07,090
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
818
00:51:08,030 --> 00:51:10,649
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
819
00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:12,980
materials on teaforteaching.com.
820
00:51:14,009 --> 00:51:15,980
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
821
00:51:15,980 --> 00:51:15,991
JOHN: Editing Assistance
provided by Madison Lee.
822
00:51:15,991 --> 00:51:16,000
[MUSIC]