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Welcome, welcome to Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston on AM950, the progressive voice of Minnesota.
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I am your host, Colleen Watterston, an owner and lead organizer at Space by Space Organizing, a Twin Cities Home Organizing Business.
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And today I am thrilled to be welcoming Carrie Lane, Chair and Professor of American Studies at California State University, Fullerton, where she teaches about work, gender, community, ethnography, and disability.
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She earned a BA in cultural anthropology with a concentration in women's studies at Princeton and a PhD in American Studies at Yale University.
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Her work focuses on how work is changing in the United States and what that means for individual workers as well as their families, communities, and country.
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And today we are talking about Carrie's newest book, which is More Than Pretty Boxes: How the Rise of Professional Organizing Shows Us The Way We Work Isn't Working.
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This book uses the fascinating field of professional organizing to eliminate what's not working in American society today and point us toward more humane ways of working and living amidst an uncertain an era of uncertainty and overwhelm.
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Carrie, welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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It's absolutely a pleasure to be here.
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I mean, your background, you are a well-researched gal, and I am so excited that your brilliant brain has focused on my industry because what how lucky are we to have to have so much fascinating research to learn from.
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So thank you for doing all of this research on behalf of our industry.
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Well, I have loved it.
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I think organizing is just a fascinating field.
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And the more when I was first starting this project, the more I learned about it, the more I knew that that uh this this was a corner of the world that had to be explored more fully.
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I love that.
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There's I've worked on books and I've been an organizer.
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And the times I've gone to writing conferences and professional organizing conferences, I'm like, I'm among my people.
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You know, there's just this, I'm in good company.
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And I think, well, you're a researcher of us and you've worked alongside some of us.
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You are not one of us.
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You are, we we did not bring you over to our side.
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You still are a professor, a researcher, and now a department chair.
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So you're pretty busy in the university academic world.
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But but we welcome you to be adjacent us or alongside us.
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And and I think what I what I wrote down from reading and from hearing you do other interviews was that you've really studied and shown findings that our industry is basically the premier network of pragmatic, empathetic, driven, professionally savant, savvy, human-centered, connected, strong women, and some men.
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But what I've very much appreciated was how how you've looked at the the people who are within this industry and and really highlighted the archetype of person who starts their own business as well as as clients, but you really look at the professional organizer at large.
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So what brought you to this research?
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Like, what's the backstory that was like, I'm gonna go into this industry, and then and then how did it evolve?
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Because you worked on this for over a decade.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think it's fair to say it took me over a decade to write the book.
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I don't want to misrepresent myself and suggest that every day for 10 years I was working on the book because life is full and complicated and and there were exciting, wonderful things that took me away from the project, such as the birth of my kid and his wonderful baby years.
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And then, but the project always pulled me back.
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I mean, it always pulled me back because it's just such a fascinating field.
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And, you know, I've studied work my whole career.
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I'm an anthropologist of work, and I I love to learn about why people choose to do the work they do, what it means to them, what their day looks like.
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I think it's it's surprising sometimes how little we know about what other people's work lives look like on a day-to-day basis.
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Even people who are really close to us.
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A lot of my closest friends have no idea what my job looks like, even though, of course, they know theoretically what it is I do for a living.
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And so, with organizers, one of the things that just from the very start spoke to me was this is a field that didn't exist until the late 1970s.
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And so people had to invent it.
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And the people who invented the field were thankfully still around when I started this project.
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And I was able to talk to some of the earliest organizers in the United States.
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And I mean, that just gives you access to this fascinating world that it's great unto itself, but it also tells you a lot about like what has been going on in our society for the last 50 plus years that led to the creation of this entirely new profession.
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Well, and you're in California, and I didn't realize that NAPO was started in California.
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And so NAPO is the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals.
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And what you're speaking to about those early founders, you were able to interview four or five of them, of the people, these women who put together this group originally APO, the Association of Professional Organizers.
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Now it's National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals.
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So it has evolved over the time.
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But, you know, your work reminded me, I recently had a client who had a huge collection of life magazines.
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And we sold three decades worth to an artist, and she's really interested in women and women's studies and women in art, but we were looking at all these advertisements and what women were advertised for, you know, and there's, oh, women drivers, and you know, all the smoking advertising, you know, it's just a cultural, you know, when you look at a deck three decades, we had, I think, from the 40s to the 60s.
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And so what your work does, and you, and you you credit the students who helped you, but you really dove into anything that was ever written about the professional organizing industry in any way.
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So kind of share about how that like from a high-level takeaway, you know, people can buy the book more than pretty boxes.
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But that what's happened culturally over the last decades.
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Yeah, I mean, so the, you know, I'm an interdisciplinary researcher, and so the the project kind of has, I mean, I guess, three or four research prongs, right?
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One is the my the heart of it to me, which is the ethnography, the interviews with organizers, the observation of the organizing industry, working alongside organizers as an unpaid assistant to see what organizing really looks like from the inside.
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And then there's the historical part that you're mentioning, right?
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Where I worked with this wonderful team of graduate students, and we basically searched through newspaper and magazine archives across American history to look for what are the first mentions of clutter, right?
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The term clutter actually dates back to the 15th century.
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So, like, how long have people been talking about clutter?
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How do they talk about it?
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And then, and this was key for me, where do we see the first mentions of organizing as a as a profession, as a job that one could have?
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That clutter does you have in your book uh that clutter has been used as a noun since the 1570s to mean things lying in heaps or crowded confusion.
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Yep.
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But how I mean, how do you even go back and find that?
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Oh, um, Oxford English Dictionary traces the derivation of terms and will tell you exactly when they were created.
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So that one actually was an easy lift.
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And and one of the things that the historical part of the project really showed me was that, you know, clutter has come in and out of fashion over time.
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There were moments in American history where clutter was a sign that you had extra money to spend.
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And that was a luxury that really marked you as being higher class.
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If you could have things in your house that were not purely functional, then you were doing pretty well for yourself.
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And so there were times when clutter was cool, and then clutter at various moments falls out of favor.
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And one of the things that I found most interesting was that whether clutter was in or clutter was out, it was women's job.
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It was women's job to accumulate the stuff.
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It was women's job to clean it, position it, maintain it, make it look good.
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Um, it was then women's job to clear it, get rid of it, figure out where it goes.
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And so the idea of organizing and decluttering has been intertwined with gendered ideas about house, home, order, aesthetics for its entire history.
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Yeah, you mentioned that.
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I thought it was so interesting how it kind of swings.
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We like clutter, we don't like clutter, we like clutter, we don't, and this cultural, you know, have, acquire, accumulate, declutter, minimal, de-stress.
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You know, it's like we're constantly, you know, it's a good, we're so in the moment now, you know, and there's so much coming at us.
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And what your book, it reminded me, I've heard at an organizer conference something that a fact was shared that was like, in today's world, someone born today has access to just as much information in a day as someone born in 1850 had in an entire lifetime.
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And so it's just, I'm constantly aware of that overwhelm.
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And what I like about your research and where you took this was really looking at like, why do we need these professional organizers and and what's going on inside of the homes that's making us feel this overwhelm?
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Well, I mean, I think what's going on inside the home that's making us feel overwhelmed is really a microcosm of what's going on in society that's making us feel overwhelmed.
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I mean, one of the things that I love about organizers is the compassion and the empathy they bring to this job.
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And and part of that is just taking people who are often really overwhelmed and really blaming themselves for that overwhelm and saying, actually, you know what?
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There's nothing wrong with you, right?
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First of all, so your house is more cluttered than you would like, so you have more belongings than you should.
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Maybe it's way more cluttered than you like.
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That doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you a failure, you know.
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So there's that part of it of like, you're okay, and I see you as this human being that's okay, and this is all manageable, right?
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It's all manageable.
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But then there's that second part of it that is to say, you feel overwhelmed because contemporary life is overwhelming.
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It's not some sort of inherent flaw or moral failure in you.
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It's that contemporary life, as you say, it barrages us with information, with cheap, accessible goods.
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I mean, I was just thinking the other day, the idea that we can go on Amazon and buy almost anything we can imagine, that is new.
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I mean, that is like if you think about the span of human history and how long that's been possible, right?
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The idea that you could buy like Fourth of July themed cake pop and have it delivered to your house the next day, like that is bananas.
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And the way that that has sort of coincided with a society that uses consumption as a marker of status, a society in which people tend to be a lot more isolated than they have been in the past from family, friends, community.
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And also on top of that, a society that, and we Americans are obsessed with work.
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We work more than people in almost any other country.
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Um we are our work is very central to our identity.
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And then we have all of this work that isn't paid employment, right?
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You don't have to have a job to work really hard.
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There are people who that just the work of running a household, of raising children if you choose to have them, of caring for elders, caring for our community, of being an activist on behalf of causes that matter to you.
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Like this is a lot of work.
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And then you add to that like all the email, all the social media, all you know, all of the things that are coming at us all the time.
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And and this is a social issue.
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It's not a personal issue.
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And that's one of the things I really try to bring home in the book that like the overwhelm we are living with is the product of choices and policies that were made far beyond the individual or household level.
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Right.
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And so if we're looking for solutions, yes, there are individual solutions, but we need bigger solutions too, because the problem is bigger than one person.
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I I love everything that you have to say and everything that you're you're putting out into the world and and helping us to kind of contextualize and unpack.
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I think that Amazon thing, you know, I feel like everyone is so overwhelmed all the time because of so much stuff, but yet our world is easier to buy a quick fix than actually work toward the solution to the problem.
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I'm constantly referring to myself as an intervention.
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And and I'm not a maintenance organizer, I'm not one that goes back and you know unpacks your groceries every time they're delivered.
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There are people who do that, but but I really think, and I think you highlight that intervention aspect of the organizing industry is that we want to create a system that you don't need us for, but part of that is addressing all the quick fixes that have accumulated in someone's home.
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So it's like, you know, I'm in a client's house coming up in a few weeks, and uh the the amount of stuff in the kitchen and the pantry and the surrounding areas is just out of control.
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And this woman says, you know, her daughter loves to bake.
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And you can tell that it is very much easier to either uh, you know, probably go to the grocery store, go to Target and buy$40,$50 worth of baking supplies and new sprinkles and new frosting and a new mix every time, and maybe even a new sifter or something, because it's just easier and it's not that expensive to go and buy the entirety that you need to do the baking.
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But it's like, I can't wait till we pull everything out and show you actually have 20 trips to Target worth of baking supplies that got used and then put away because we don't discard, but we shove.
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And it's all that add to cart.
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And I actually, when you were talking, thought about there was a there's a there's some documentary out there, I think it's called Buy Now, but it's on I saw it on on Netflix.
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It was about Amazon.
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So I probably did not see it on Prime because it's a little critical of Amazon.
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Um but it talked about how researchers came up with that merigold color button for the buy now, you know, like instead of the add to cart, but the buy now, and that there were like nine different colors researched about which one got people to buy now more frequently.
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So, how can we get people to buy this moment, this instant?
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And even just watching that and realizing that that research was done to influence me made me change my behavior to add Descartes and save for later a few days and and really not give into that buy now.
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And this this documentary also had that this image where it's an illustrator of a person lying in bed and they get the idea they need something, they go on their phone, and while they're sleeping, a conveyor belt drops the item at the foot of their bed.
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And it's like that is so true.
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And there's nights where I'm like, I should leave the lights on when I go to bed for that delivery driver who's gonna be here from 4 to 8 a.m.
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And it's like we don't need something that fast.
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And as a professional organizer, we're constantly seeing the Amazon, the the buy nows, you know, piling and piling up.
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But then what your your point makes um is the time it takes to address these things.
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And so you infuse your book with stories throughout, like from your your working sessions with organizers from those days, and you bring, you know, this is what we were doing.
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You contextualize it for people, you share these stories directly from being in the homes of people.
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Like there's one craft room that you that you talk about, and and I always call things human hours because so many people are hard on themselves because they're like, oh, I'll get that done tonight.
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And they can never get what they want to done tonight because there's not enough hours in a night to get it done.
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And you talk about going through the entire craft room, you talk about you know going through the the sorting process with the client, the client leaves, you say she came back three hours later, there were four of you there working.
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So she came back three hours later, but she came back 12 human hours later, and then it was ready for her to review.
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And I think that's so important, and I appreciate that your work, you know, subtly and and obviously calls out the time it takes to do these tasks.
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And we need to honor that time, whether we're hiring somebody, you know, and and show that this actually takes time, and if you're going to pay for it, there's time involved with that.
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But to also be easy on ourselves.
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This takes time.
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If you're going to do this, don't think one evening can solve that problem.
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So thank you for just being attentive to that.
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Well, and I think also I mean, one of the things I am not a professional organizer, right?
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I I I've worked alongside organizers, but I'm not one.
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But it doesn't matter.
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When I go talk about the book, people want tips.
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They want my tips on organizing.
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And so I can say, look, I mean, I can speak to you as someone who has spent time with organizers.
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I, you know, I've got to be a good idea.
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I mean, a hundred hours.
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You have done a lot of hours with organizers.
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Yeah, more than a hundred hours, more than a hundred hours of on-hand organizing.
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And I still I still do it in my community for fun.
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I help organize the library at the local school and I and I help out friends.
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One of my favorite things is to go to a friend's house and hang out with them while they organize and clean something.
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And it's become like a way for them to be accountable.
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And they always thank me for doing it.
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And I tell them, like, no, I this is so fun for me to help you sort your closet and then rearrange it all pretty so that when you open it, you're actually excited to wear the items that you have chosen to keep.
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You know, I'm I'm part of a group that organizes local clothing swaps.
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This stuff is fun for me.
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And I know that is not necessarily how it is for everyone else, but but to speak to the point of time that you bring up.
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I mean, on the one hand, all of these organizing reality shows were so good for professional organizing because they really brought attention and awareness to the field.
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Even in like 20, if I said I was studying organizers, most people, especially academics, but most people thought I was studying labor organization.
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That happens a lot less often.
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People know what organizing is if an organizer, they they mostly know who I mean, right?
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And the shows did that, but the problem is the shows also created, I mean, they're entertainment and they're in a short form format.
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So they kind of create the impression, even in people who are intelligent folks who who they know they would know better if they thought about it.
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They create the impression that this is a quick fix.
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And especially the shows that focus on issues of people with hoarding disorders.
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I mean, those are months of teams of dozens of people, and and also some sort of you know, TV magic in terms of editing in ways that amplify the the narrative they want to amplify, right?
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Um, so I think there are a lot of people who have unrealistic ideas about how long this stuff takes.
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And and I so one of the tips I do offer when people ask me is you don't organize your house in a weekend.
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You choose one little thing.
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Choose a drawer, choose one cabinet, you know.
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I mean, the the games and puzzles in my house are always disorganized, and I'm not gonna sit down every day and make sure they're perfect.
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But every few months or so, when I have a minute, I might pull everything out, get rid of what you know, my kids grown out of or we don't want to do anymore, and and put everything back.
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And it takes me probably less than 15 minutes, but that part's done.
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And then some other day I'll pick some other thing, my shelf or my drawer, you know, it's sort of a part of an everyday life, as opposed to, I can promise you, I will never put aside an entire weekend to organize my home.
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I it just doesn't mean that much to me.
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But it means enough to me that I'll do little bits here or there so that it's it's working well enough for me.
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I do sometimes think if people read the book, they think they would come to my house and it's like perfectly organized.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:36.960
And I can a thousand percent guarantee you that it is not, but it's organized enough that it doesn't stress me out.
00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:44.319
And I'm I'm constantly when people come over, I say, look at my drawers, because sometimes the surface isn't organized, but like the drawers are immaculate.
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.759
Um and and I welcome people to open every one of them.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:49.279
Okay, we're gonna take a quick break.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.400
This we are with Carrie Lane, More Than Pretty Boxes.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.599
And when we come back, we're gonna talk about that title: More Than Pretty Boxes.
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.000
This is Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:01.279
We'll be right back.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:14.559
Welcome back to Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston on AM950.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.599
I am here today with Carrie Lane.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:27.519
So, Carrie Lane is the author of More Than Pretty Boxes: How the Rise of Professional Organizing Shows Us the Way We Work Isn't Working.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:34.160
And I am the owner of Space by Space Organizing and identify as a professional organizer.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:45.920
And I'm thrilled that this brilliant woman here, Carrie, has spent you know, a decade of focused energy on what's going on in the organizing industry.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:58.880
So not only has she have you, Carrie, gone back in time to the the first mention of organizing and clutter, but then you've followed historically how the industry really came to be.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:10.480
And then even the fact that The fact that it was a focus of yours for a decade or more, it allowed you to really be pulling things in as they were, you know, evolving in that decade alone.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:22.319
You know, there's like a mini attentive focus in that time where you were really working alongside organizers, but then this huge scope behind where you probably know more about our industry than most organizers.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.079
And your title is more than pretty boxes.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:32.319
And at you've talked about potentially titling the book, it's not about the stuff.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:38.400
So tell me about your title and both titles, you know, and the subtitle.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:48.720
But tell me about that kind of those key findings that informed what you wanted to be front and center in the ultimate consumable of all this research.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:23:02.400
Yeah, so the original title that I, my working title as I was doing the project was not about this stuff, because I heard that again and again and again from the organizers that I was interviewing and working alongside, that they were saying organizing is really not about the stuff.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.039
It's about the people, it's about the emotions around the stuff, it's about relationships.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:15.839
And, you know, people can say that all they want, but when I was in the field working alongside organizers, you see it in this really concrete way.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:24.559
Organizing is not really, I mean, organizers have wonderful skills around space management and design, aesthetics, organization, or all of it.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.119
But that's really not the heart of the field.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:41.359
The heart of the field is meeting people where they are, people who are often stressed, self-critical, overwhelmed, struggling to function smoothly on a daily basis in one capacity or to one extent or another, right?
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:52.799
And meeting them where they are, bringing a lack of judgment, bringing empathy, and sort of making sure that they understand that they're a perfectly good, fine human.
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.720
And this is just stuff.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:59.200
But so what organizers say is, oh, the hardest part is not like color-coding firewall folders, right?
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.880
The hardest part is the human part because it is so different from job to job.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:11.759
And it also requires a different kind of labor, one that I have found professional organizers are incredibly good at.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:26.240
So when you were following people and working alongside them, how frequently were you seeing those moments where it's not even about the stuff that it's actually about a conversation that needs to be happening in between the touching of the stuff?
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:32.799
Yeah, I mean, every single job almost that not every job is emotionally weighted, right?
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.359
I mean, I can imagine I can remember certain jobs I worked on.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.440
We were unpacking a family's kitchen.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.359
Um I I talk about the story in the book.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.559
I talk about mugs, but we're unpacking a family's kitchen after they moved.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:44.559
And it wasn't, we weren't decluttering.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.839
They lived in an enormous mansion in the Kardashian neighborhood.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.240
And um And they had a couple kids.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.119
They they they were busy people.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:53.839
Yeah.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.720
And they didn't and they didn't have to get rid of anything.
00:24:57.039 --> 00:24:59.920
So it, you know, that that takes a lot of the emotion out of it.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.799
It becomes really more about what's pretty, what's functional.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:08.480
And you know, we're gonna put this away for you, and it's gonna make a really good amount of sense and it'll look great.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.599
It will be pretty, yeah, but it will be very functional.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:24.079
There there was, you know, function that they might not have thought of if they put it away themselves, because professional organizers do organize more kitchens per capita than a person that doesn't do this professionally.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:40.000
So, but yeah, but you I agree, yes, and sometimes you I'm moving someone the next couple days, and there's some emotion to it, but with the timeline and with you know what we've got to get done, it's really about dusting things off, putting them in boxes, bringing them to the next place, unpacking those boxes.
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.039
You know, they won't be the prettiest boxes this time, but that's just we're getting it from here to there.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:56.160
But so much of organizing, and that's what I love about what your research really elevates is those moments in between and those conversations in between and the emotions in between.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:57.920
Absolutely.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:12.799
And I mean, one of the things that that is a core part of that that we kind of touched on a little bit earlier, is a lot of this also has to do with the expectations people carry about themselves and their space, what their space is supposed to look like, what their schedule is supposed to allow them to do.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:27.359
And it's not always gendered, but it's often gendered in a way that, you know, studies have shown that women bear much more responsibility for the work of managing homes, even when multiple people are in their household and they're working and it doesn't matter.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:32.319
It tends to fall on the women in, you know, a situation where there are men and women living in the house.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:41.279
And also that women tend to be very hard on themselves because they think that if their house doesn't look a certain way, that it reflects on them personally, right?
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:55.039
And and men, well, certainly men don't necessarily love clutter and they may be as interested in or as good at organization, but they don't necessarily carry that emotional weight because society doesn't tell men that their worth is measured by how nice their home space looks like.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:00.799
And whether we as women accept or reject that narrative, it's a big cultural narrative that's out there.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:09.680
And so a lot of the organizing jobs I worked on, there were these really intense emotions around like should what we I always say, like, don't sudge yourself, right?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:12.559
Around like, I should have done this, I should be able to handle this myself.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:13.200
I should.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:17.759
And a lot of what organizers do is to say, oh, honey, you're fine, right?
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.359
Like you, you're, you know, this is unmanageable because life is unmanageable.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:32.960
So let's figure out some just concrete strategies to make things work a little better for you, while also reminding them that like these expectations you're setting for themselves, yourself are they're unrealistic.
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:42.400
Um, I, you know, I remember one of the organizers that I read about in the book talks about how, you know, she'll tell clients, I can 100% give you that perfect Pinterest pantry.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:47.599
If that's important to you, we can give you that, where everything's decanted beautifully into matching containers.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.400
And she said, but I just want you to know the people who have that, they have full-time staff who maintain those pantries.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:53.839
They're not doing it every day.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.319
So if you want that, we can do it for you.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:03.920
But you need to pause and think, does it matter enough to me that I'm gonna put in the time and labor and money it would take to have that pantry?
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.559
And for most people, the answer is no.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:16.160
And then they can kind of let go of that pressure they were feeling to somehow, you know, make their pantry match that the Pinterest one.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.160
I love that you make that point.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:37.200
And I I often say that our industry glamorizes over consumption because a lot of what we put online and a lot of what gets the brands, the organizer brands out there that are the most followed and that you know have the best social media content have some pretty beautiful before and afters.
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:48.240
And and that is so lovely and wonderful for the people who are able to afford that and and afford that much excess, as we've talked about.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:55.680
You know, that can be a something that people take a lot of pride in their belongings, and and it's great that they're able to showcase them.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:07.039
Um but it's also, you know, I I have a master's in international development, and I've spent a lot of my time thinking about real global issues and and working on them.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:20.319
And I feel that actually the work I'm doing right now is is more meaningful and I'm having a greater impact being in people's homes and doing the work that you're talking about, which is, you know, what's really going on here?
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:26.480
And how can I intervene in a way that that responds to that and holds space for that?
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.039
But yeah, I can do a pretty pantry too.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.440
You know, I can decant all your cereal and I can buy you all the fanciest things.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:44.319
You know, I mean, um, most organizers are just as as good at using cardboard boxes as we are at using, you know, fancy clear ones and nice labeling systems.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.799
Um, but I love that you you really create space for that.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.119
That this is about so much more than the pretty boxes.
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:55.359
Absolutely.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.000
And that's what draws so many women to the field, right?
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:08.960
Is the chance to do that meaningful human work to run your own business, to do the work the way you want to do it, and to help people who really need and value your help.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:24.400
I think that's what you you kind of hold space and honor both the people, the women who come to this line of work, as well as the largely women that come to the professionals to help them declutter and go through things.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.519
So like both the professional organizers and the clients.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:45.759
I was gonna share a story that for me exemplifies, you know, I I have this show so that I can pull back the curtain on my business and help people to feel not alone, you know, like, oh, I'm not the only one surrounded by my stuff, you know, and I'm I'm so honored now.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:51.599
I'm I've been doing this for almost half a year, and there are people who are coming who've met me through this show.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:58.240
And it's fun to go into their house and know that that they have an idea of who I am and what I stand for.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:06.880
And that was part of what attracted them to me was that I'm not just about the pretty boxes, but that the the not about the pretty boxes.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.279
So last night I was at a client's home.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:13.599
We've done a really big first start of work in our house.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:21.839
It's been four work sessions, three, three of us organizers, and there was a a decent sized bill invoice attached to that.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:29.359
And and I thought, you know, I think I think we need to just have like a a new consult, just say, okay, what's been done, where are we going?
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:31.119
Because it won't be as much.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.599
You know, these were the biggest work sessions that we had.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.720
But I just I felt like instead of sending an email, let's just get together and make sure we're on the same page.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.480
There's a lot going on for her.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.720
And I just wanted to be in person.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.400
So I said, how about I come over?
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.200
We'll size up where we're at and where we're going.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:48.640
She's like, love that idea.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:49.200
Thanks.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:51.839
And so I go there, she's sitting on her patio outside.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:54.079
We ended up sitting outside for three hours.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:59.680
And I shared with her, I had brought your book with me, and I shared with her that we'd be having this conversation today.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:13.519
And it was more about more than about the pretty boxes, because this woman is enormously successful in her career, has done so much independently for herself, is a single mom by choice of two daughters.
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.200
I mean, she is, she carries a lot.
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:29.759
And and she also holds on to a lot because she honors those memories and the people in her life along the way and doesn't want to lose them by, you know, throwing out something attached to them.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.119
So there's a renovation happening in her house this summer.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:45.119
I got brought on by the renovators, the remodelers, to be able to help declutter to actually allow this renovation to not only happen, but then be as rewarding as the investment is going to be for her.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.039
And I'm sitting with her and I said, you know, it's not about the stuff.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:50.720
And I shared a story.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:58.000
I studied abroad in China in 2008 in undergrad, and my friends and I went on a bus trip for a weekend to Inner Mongolia.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.160
Halfway through, we got in a bus accident.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.400
It was traumatizing for me.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:15.200
I didn't realize just how much, honestly, until the Hudson miracle on Hudson plane crash, and I heard psychologists describe what happens to people who go through a moment where they think their life's going to be taken from them.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:27.279
And so I was sharing with her about this accident and how, you know, a few friends and I we got tickets back to Beijing that night so that we could fly home and just get back to our tiny little rooms, but our safe space.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.839
And I'm at the airport and I'd been on a bus.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.079
So I had brought full-size toiletries.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.799
And we're going through this new origins, checks and balances, frothy face wash.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:38.240
It was fancy for me at the time.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:39.039
I was in college.
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.359
My mom had just brought it when she came to visit.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:43.839
It was like a$35 brand new bottle.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:47.279
And I'm like using my minimal Chinese, like ting ting, you know.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.240
I mean, like, it was just in the middle of a rural Chinese airport.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.440
They're like, who is this girl?
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.599
This, you know, I'm surprised they let me through.
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.279
And I go behind a po pedestal and I'm crying.
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:00.640
And I tell my friend, it's not about the face wash.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:04.720
You know, it was like, please don't take one more thing from me today.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:10.000
You know, like I'm I feel so on edge and so spent.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:13.440
And I just, I just wanted to go home with my things, you know.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.760
I just wanted to go back with my face wash.
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:19.519
And so that's not about the pretty boxes or more than pretty boxes.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:21.199
It was about more than the face wash.
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:31.199
But this client, she's she's got these daughters and she's got a lot of squishmallows, you know, those very lovely, cute, adorable plushies.
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.480
And the girls, um, they were around for the first part.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.280
Now they're at summer camp and we're gonna dive deeper and deeper.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:41.440
But I wanted the girls to see the effort for those human hours we talked about.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.719
So that these girls are like, Mom, why do you come home and you can't get this done?
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:50.719
It's like, because it took 12 human hours, you know, and I don't have laundry, and I can't text, and I can't scroll.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:51.760
I'm here to work.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.400
We all are, so it's taking this dedicated time.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:58.000
But I said, your girls want those squishmallows gone.
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:02.639
And it's it they they want you to let them grow, you know.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.840
They they want to grow, and holding on to that is holding on to that younger version of them.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.159
And it's like she loved that younger version.
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:18.719
But I'm like, but if you don't let the space be there for their new versions of themselves, they're the ones that are gonna go to college and be like, I'm free, you know.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:30.079
And it's like, but if you allow them to grow and you grow with them and you release the squishmallows that served five, seven years ago, but not today, then you'll let something new in.
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.639
And as they become adults, you'll be travel companions.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.480
And as, you know, like you want to hold space for each other to grow.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:41.920
And so, you know, there's a lot of relationship dynamics that happen within us within a house, too.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:51.199
And it was just nice to be able to use those few examples of your research on the entire industry, it's more than the boxes, the pretty boxes.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:55.519
My experience to her to say it's it's more than the face wash.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:58.079
There's always more behind the thing, the stuff.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:08.159
And then, and it's not about the squishmallows, but the squishmallows represent something, you know, and the pretty boxes represent this feeling that we have order in our lives.
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:15.360
And and so, you know, I just I appreciate the depth of your research within that.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:27.599
And and we'll go to a break and and close soon, but is there anything else you want to share about that pretty boxes, not about the stuff, the emotional depth of what happens in the professional organizing industry?
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:40.639
I I think just to speak quickly to the stories you told, which really, you know, they speak to me and and they remind me so much of so many stories like that, where what organizers do is to figure out the story behind the stuff.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:45.920
Like one of them, you know, a number of organizers told me, you know, I gotta find out first where it hurts, right?
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:55.440
And where it hurts is often around the stuff that, you know, maybe it's the things you acquired because you wanted to be a certain kind of person and you know that never worked out for you.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:07.280
And so letting go of them and shedding that idea of the person you might have become, maybe it is things that you associate with, maybe it's a past marriage, maybe it's your child's youth, maybe it's a profession you're no longer doing, you retired from it.
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:12.639
But it's it's hard to let go of, you know, those books you used to use in your job as an engineer, right?
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.079
And and I think, you know, you what you said also reminded me of.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.760
I I think the gentle art of Swedish Death Cleaning is just a wonderful book.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.800
Margarita Magnuson, she actually recently passed away, that author.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:23.840
So sad.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:24.960
I know, right?
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:27.920
I had a vision of of having a gin and tonic with her.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.800
She has this YouTube video of herself making a gin and tonic.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.639
She drinks it, she realized she forgot the gin.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:33.920
She's just adorable.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.920
She called herself somewhere between 80 and 100.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:36.719
I've talked a lot.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:38.639
My family was in the funeral business.
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:45.199
Um, so I'm very, you know, listeners to the show know that I love to talk about how death is a motivator.
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:48.320
But I'm her book is so beautiful.
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.800
And and what I think people miss is they think it's gonna be dark, and it is so light, that book.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:01.039
And one of the things that spoke to me so much about the book, even though I'm, you know, I'm in my 50s, I'm I've got a way to go before I'm thinking about that next phase of life.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:08.159
However, what she said is good for everyone to think about, which is that you want to have things around you that serve the person you are right now.
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:20.159
And so that idea that it's like disrespectful to let go of something from the past, or that it it somehow speaks to the nature or depth of your relationship with someone if you let go of things connected to them.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:28.079
No, it's about shedding some of the old to make room for who you are currently and who you want to be in the future.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.039
And I think that framing is really helpful.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.360
It's not about like stern taskmasters who are making you get rid of beloved items.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:46.159
Organizing is about creating the space for you to be living the way you want to live now and making room for like all the exciting stuff that we don't even know that lies ahead for us.
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.199
One of my catchphrases is I'm not anti-stuff.
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:51.760
I'm anti-stuff getting in the way of your life.
00:38:52.079 --> 00:39:00.239
And I think what you also just brought up is like sometimes something that you might have stuffed away in a box might be better displayed.
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:06.559
You know, if you have a note from somebody who means a lot to you, maybe frame it and put it where you're gonna see it every day.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:10.559
I have quirky little funny sentimental things throughout my house.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:19.039
Like I could give you the longest tour of my house if you ever wanted it, because I surround myself with things that make me smile and delight me.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:37.440
But if those are stuck in boxes far away and you're not even able to access these things that you're hanging on to, you know, we we can rework the storage even, you know, and we can, you know, so sometimes we stuff things away and it's like that's still adding to the energy of what our house is sitting upon, even if it's tucked back behind the basement.
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:41.920
You know, it's like, let's let's bring it out and figure out what's going on here.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:46.239
So, okay, we're gonna take a quick break and come back to close out this conversation.
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:50.800
I am so enjoying you and so enjoying your work and so grateful that you've done it.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:58.079
So we're here with Carrie Lane, author of More Than Pretty Boxes, Colleen Watterston of Space by Space Organizing on Sorting Through Life.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:39:59.599
We will be right back.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:15.280
All right, welcome back to Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston from Space by Space Organizing here in the Twin Cities.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:26.639
I am so thrilled to be joined today by Carrie Lane, author of More Than Pretty Boxes, a an ethnographic research study of the professional organizing industry at large.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:40.480
Carrie, I have so appreciated hearing your feedback from an outsider's perspective who really put themselves in the organizing industry as much as you could while maintaining that researcher perspective.
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:58.960
And I was telling you about, I did a research project of my own without a university behind me, but um a little over 10 years ago, and I've talked about this on the show, I traveled around the world and asked over 700 people across 40 countries the same three questions.
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:00.960
What does a good life mean to you?
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.079
In your opinion, what's the biggest threat to humanity today?
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.880
And what do you think the world will be like 50 years from now?
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:13.199
And I did the first month in the United States and asked over 150 people across the US those questions.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:22.239
But I have a hundred thousand word manuscript that I need to clean up and and put out in the world so that I can have that behind me, you know, finish something I've started.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:26.079
But so much in recent years I've come back to that first question.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:28.320
What does a good life mean to you?
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:45.280
And I've realized how the influence of so many people's answers and really exposing myself to different people's worldviews has kind of m inspired me to come home and design and build a really good life for myself.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:48.000
And I and I love the life that I live now.
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:55.119
I love the friends that I have, the relationships with family and friends, and and I love my job and I love what I'm doing.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:42:12.960
But then this business that I'm doing of going into people's homes and helping to make sense of of the stuff and the stuff behind the stuff, it's like I really feel like I'm doing my best to bring a good life to my clients, you know, and to help them get out of their own way so that they can live a good life.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:19.039
And so I just want to kind of talk to you about that because you you really talk about that.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:27.519
You you saw that these organizers that you were working alongside wanted that best life possible for the people they were serving.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:34.719
So can you just share your your takeaway thoughts on on the intention behind what we do?
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.159
Sure.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:41.119
Well, first of all, I'm so glad you're gonna finish that book and put it out in the world because I would love to read it.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:42.159
I'm fascinated.
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:51.360
Um, and and I look forward to the chance maybe in the future to talk to you about you what the experience was like of wandering the world and getting to talk to people about those questions.
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:52.400
I I love it.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:58.480
Um, but yeah, I think, you know, we live in such a sort of frantic, busy world.
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:04.639
Even when we're not actually busy, I think we feel busy for all sorts of various reasons.
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:12.880
Um, technology, uncertainty, political crises, cultural changes, you know, wafting all around us, all of those things.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:14.159
We feel so busy.
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:34.960
And one of the things organizers do is they create the space, like the literal time in the day to stop and pause and think about what in your life is working and you want to work to protect that, to hold it dear and keep it, and what in your life is is not working, and that doesn't have to be stuff, but it might be stuff.
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:39.199
Um and and how can we help you to live a better life?
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.920
And to to do that, to really engage with that, it takes time.
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.199
And time is something most of us feel like we don't have.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:59.840
And I think that's one of the gifts that organizers can give to their clients is time to actually stop and think about what do you want your life to look like, and then come up with a concrete, specific plan to try to make that happen.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.679
Because as we talked about so much of the time, it's not about the stuff.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:09.119
It's about what the stuff represents in the past, in the present, in the future, about who we are, about what our life looks like.
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:18.719
And, you know, organizers help you figure out how I can make my life better and more suited for me and my values and priorities.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:27.519
And I think that you exemplify how from the beginning of this industry, that was that was always the goal.
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:38.000
And the industry has evolved, the offerings have evolved, but it has remained the driving force of the people who choose it as a profession and choose to hire that profession.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:45.360
But I'm curious in the last few minutes here, what you think is ahead for this industry when it comes to offerings.
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:51.280
There will always be the ability to have in-home organizers, and that is growing exponentially.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:57.199
But what else do you see coming up with the trends that you've studied in the past?
00:44:57.679 --> 00:44:59.599
Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:06.719
One thing I think I see already we see a real rise of digital organizing, people who can help organize your digital clutter.
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.960
I mean, just the amount of information coming at us every day through various sources.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:13.679
So I think there's going to be a lot of growth in that area.
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:21.199
I think there's going to be a lot more attention to organizing one's attention, the things we pay attention to.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:27.440
I'm currently going through a moment of shedding aspects of technology, social media.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:32.639
My husband calls me an early rejector because I'm like, oh, TikTok, that sounds interesting.
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:33.360
My students love it.
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:35.920
I download it, I look at it, I'm like, nope, done, delete.
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:37.599
That's a book title.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:39.840
I'm not dedicating any time to that, right?
00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:56.880
So I think helping people get rid of the distractions that prevent us from really being present in the course of our lives for the things that we love and find ourselves distracted from, even as we're, you know, this is the thing we love, this is the life we wanted, and here we are not paying attention to it because we're distracted by other things.
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.280
So I think that's one field, one direction.
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:04.079
The other thing that I think is really fascinating is organizing as a business.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.800
People do it to make a living, right?
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:13.360
Um, they don't necessarily do it for the money, but people who do it do it in order to make a living to one degree or another, right?
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:25.360
And yet, most organizers that I talk to would be thrilled to go out of business because all of their clients got the skills they needed to organize themselves in the future, right?
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.599
Like most organized organizers I talked to are like, oh, I'd love to put myself out of business.
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:31.440
They see themselves as teachers.
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:36.480
Not everyone can or wants to learn those skills, but many people can.
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:46.159
And so a lot of the organizers I spoke with talked about trying to bring organizing out into the world outside of the paid context of an organizer-client relationship.
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.960
So, should organizing be taught in elementary schools, right?
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:51.199
I mean, I have my I have a 12-year-old.
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.800
His elementary school focused a lot on executive functioning skills.
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.519
Organization is part of that, right?
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:07.280
And so what if organizing could become part of the curriculum so that students are learning not just how to organize their homework, but to organize the spaces around them as well.
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:15.440
A lot of the organizers I worked with do pro bono work where they work with clients for free who are in crisis or can't afford their services.
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:22.880
And they're looking for opportunities for organizing to be free and available, so that you don't have to be wealthy.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:25.039
You don't have to live in an urban area.
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:33.360
You don't have to have those privileges in order to gain the benefits of an organized life.
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:41.679
Well, and I hope that this show adds value to people to be able to be inspired, to go and organize themselves, to pick up good resources that can help in that process.
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.920
Thank you so much for being here, Carrie.
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:47.840
This is Colleen Watterston with Sorting Through Life on AM950.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.039
We'll see you next time.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:10.640
Welcome, welcome to Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston on AM950, the progressive voice of Minnesota.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:18.719
I am your host, Colleen Watterston, an owner and lead organizer at Space by Space Organizing, a Twin Cities Home Organizing Business.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:32.240
And today I am thrilled to be welcoming Carrie Lane, Chair and Professor of American Studies at California State University, Fullerton, where she teaches about work, gender, community, ethnography, and disability.
00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:41.039
She earned a BA in cultural anthropology with a concentration in women's studies at Princeton and a PhD in American Studies at Yale University.
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Her work focuses on how work is changing in the United States and what that means for individual workers as well as their families, communities, and country.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:01:03.840
And today we are talking about Carrie's newest book, which is More Than Pretty Boxes: How the Rise of Professional Organizing Shows Us The Way We Work Isn't Working.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:18.239
This book uses the fascinating field of professional organizing to eliminate what's not working in American society today and point us toward more humane ways of working and living amidst an uncertain an era of uncertainty and overwhelm.
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Carrie, welcome.
00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:22.480
Thank you so much for having me.
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It's absolutely a pleasure to be here.
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I mean, your background, you are a well-researched gal, and I am so excited that your brilliant brain has focused on my industry because what how lucky are we to have to have so much fascinating research to learn from.
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So thank you for doing all of this research on behalf of our industry.
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Well, I have loved it.
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I think organizing is just a fascinating field.
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And the more when I was first starting this project, the more I learned about it, the more I knew that that uh this this was a corner of the world that had to be explored more fully.
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I love that.
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There's I've worked on books and I've been an organizer.
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And the times I've gone to writing conferences and professional organizing conferences, I'm like, I'm among my people.
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You know, there's just this, I'm in good company.
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And I think, well, you're a researcher of us and you've worked alongside some of us.
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You are not one of us.
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You are, we we did not bring you over to our side.
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You still are a professor, a researcher, and now a department chair.
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So you're pretty busy in the university academic world.
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But but we welcome you to be adjacent us or alongside us.
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And and I think what I what I wrote down from reading and from hearing you do other interviews was that you've really studied and shown findings that our industry is basically the premier network of pragmatic, empathetic, driven, professionally savant, savvy, human-centered, connected, strong women, and some men.
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But what I've very much appreciated was how how you've looked at the the people who are within this industry and and really highlighted the archetype of person who starts their own business as well as as clients, but you really look at the professional organizer at large.
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So what brought you to this research?
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Like, what's the backstory that was like, I'm gonna go into this industry, and then and then how did it evolve?
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Because you worked on this for over a decade.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think it's fair to say it took me over a decade to write the book.
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I don't want to misrepresent myself and suggest that every day for 10 years I was working on the book because life is full and complicated and and there were exciting, wonderful things that took me away from the project, such as the birth of my kid and his wonderful baby years.
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And then, but the project always pulled me back.
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I mean, it always pulled me back because it's just such a fascinating field.
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And, you know, I've studied work my whole career.
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I'm an anthropologist of work, and I I love to learn about why people choose to do the work they do, what it means to them, what their day looks like.
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I think it's it's surprising sometimes how little we know about what other people's work lives look like on a day-to-day basis.
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Even people who are really close to us.
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A lot of my closest friends have no idea what my job looks like, even though, of course, they know theoretically what it is I do for a living.
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And so, with organizers, one of the things that just from the very start spoke to me was this is a field that didn't exist until the late 1970s.
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And so people had to invent it.
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And the people who invented the field were thankfully still around when I started this project.
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And I was able to talk to some of the earliest organizers in the United States.
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And I mean, that just gives you access to this fascinating world that it's great unto itself, but it also tells you a lot about like what has been going on in our society for the last 50 plus years that led to the creation of this entirely new profession.
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Well, and you're in California, and I didn't realize that NAPO was started in California.
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And so NAPO is the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals.
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And what you're speaking to about those early founders, you were able to interview four or five of them, of the people, these women who put together this group originally APO, the Association of Professional Organizers.
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Now it's National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals.
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So it has evolved over the time.
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But, you know, your work reminded me, I recently had a client who had a huge collection of life magazines.
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And we sold three decades worth to an artist, and she's really interested in women and women's studies and women in art, but we were looking at all these advertisements and what women were advertised for, you know, and there's, oh, women drivers, and you know, all the smoking advertising, you know, it's just a cultural, you know, when you look at a deck three decades, we had, I think, from the 40s to the 60s.
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And so what your work does, and you, and you you credit the students who helped you, but you really dove into anything that was ever written about the professional organizing industry in any way.
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So kind of share about how that like from a high-level takeaway, you know, people can buy the book more than pretty boxes.
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But that what's happened culturally over the last decades.
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Yeah, I mean, so the, you know, I'm an interdisciplinary researcher, and so the the project kind of has, I mean, I guess, three or four research prongs, right?
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One is the my the heart of it to me, which is the ethnography, the interviews with organizers, the observation of the organizing industry, working alongside organizers as an unpaid assistant to see what organizing really looks like from the inside.
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And then there's the historical part that you're mentioning, right?
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Where I worked with this wonderful team of graduate students, and we basically searched through newspaper and magazine archives across American history to look for what are the first mentions of clutter, right?
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The term clutter actually dates back to the 15th century.
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So, like, how long have people been talking about clutter?
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How do they talk about it?
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And then, and this was key for me, where do we see the first mentions of organizing as a as a profession, as a job that one could have?
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That clutter does you have in your book uh that clutter has been used as a noun since the 1570s to mean things lying in heaps or crowded confusion.
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Yep.
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But how I mean, how do you even go back and find that?
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Oh, um, Oxford English Dictionary traces the derivation of terms and will tell you exactly when they were created.
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So that one actually was an easy lift.
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And and one of the things that the historical part of the project really showed me was that, you know, clutter has come in and out of fashion over time.
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There were moments in American history where clutter was a sign that you had extra money to spend.
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And that was a luxury that really marked you as being higher class.
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If you could have things in your house that were not purely functional, then you were doing pretty well for yourself.
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And so there were times when clutter was cool, and then clutter at various moments falls out of favor.
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And one of the things that I found most interesting was that whether clutter was in or clutter was out, it was women's job.
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It was women's job to accumulate the stuff.
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It was women's job to clean it, position it, maintain it, make it look good.
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Um, it was then women's job to clear it, get rid of it, figure out where it goes.
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And so the idea of organizing and decluttering has been intertwined with gendered ideas about house, home, order, aesthetics for its entire history.
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Yeah, you mentioned that.
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I thought it was so interesting how it kind of swings.
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We like clutter, we don't like clutter, we like clutter, we don't, and this cultural, you know, have, acquire, accumulate, declutter, minimal, de-stress.
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You know, it's like we're constantly, you know, it's a good, we're so in the moment now, you know, and there's so much coming at us.
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And what your book, it reminded me, I've heard at an organizer conference something that a fact was shared that was like, in today's world, someone born today has access to just as much information in a day as someone born in 1850 had in an entire lifetime.
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And so it's just, I'm constantly aware of that overwhelm.
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And what I like about your research and where you took this was really looking at like, why do we need these professional organizers and and what's going on inside of the homes that's making us feel this overwhelm?
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Well, I mean, I think what's going on inside the home that's making us feel overwhelmed is really a microcosm of what's going on in society that's making us feel overwhelmed.
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I mean, one of the things that I love about organizers is the compassion and the empathy they bring to this job.
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And and part of that is just taking people who are often really overwhelmed and really blaming themselves for that overwhelm and saying, actually, you know what?
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There's nothing wrong with you, right?
00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.799
First of all, so your house is more cluttered than you would like, so you have more belongings than you should.
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Maybe it's way more cluttered than you like.
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That doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you a failure, you know.
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So there's that part of it of like, you're okay, and I see you as this human being that's okay, and this is all manageable, right?
00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:37.039
It's all manageable.
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But then there's that second part of it that is to say, you feel overwhelmed because contemporary life is overwhelming.
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It's not some sort of inherent flaw or moral failure in you.
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It's that contemporary life, as you say, it barrages us with information, with cheap, accessible goods.
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I mean, I was just thinking the other day, the idea that we can go on Amazon and buy almost anything we can imagine, that is new.
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:12.240
I mean, that is like if you think about the span of human history and how long that's been possible, right?
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:19.519
The idea that you could buy like Fourth of July themed cake pop and have it delivered to your house the next day, like that is bananas.
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And the way that that has sort of coincided with a society that uses consumption as a marker of status, a society in which people tend to be a lot more isolated than they have been in the past from family, friends, community.
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:39.279
And also on top of that, a society that, and we Americans are obsessed with work.
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We work more than people in almost any other country.
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Um we are our work is very central to our identity.
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And then we have all of this work that isn't paid employment, right?
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You don't have to have a job to work really hard.
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There are people who that just the work of running a household, of raising children if you choose to have them, of caring for elders, caring for our community, of being an activist on behalf of causes that matter to you.
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Like this is a lot of work.
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And then you add to that like all the email, all the social media, all you know, all of the things that are coming at us all the time.
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.679
And and this is a social issue.
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:19.440
It's not a personal issue.
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:29.440
And that's one of the things I really try to bring home in the book that like the overwhelm we are living with is the product of choices and policies that were made far beyond the individual or household level.
00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:30.000
Right.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:39.679
And so if we're looking for solutions, yes, there are individual solutions, but we need bigger solutions too, because the problem is bigger than one person.
00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:49.840
I I love everything that you have to say and everything that you're you're putting out into the world and and helping us to kind of contextualize and unpack.
00:12:50.159 --> 00:13:05.519
I think that Amazon thing, you know, I feel like everyone is so overwhelmed all the time because of so much stuff, but yet our world is easier to buy a quick fix than actually work toward the solution to the problem.
00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:09.279
I'm constantly referring to myself as an intervention.
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:16.399
And and I'm not a maintenance organizer, I'm not one that goes back and you know unpacks your groceries every time they're delivered.
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:34.159
There are people who do that, but but I really think, and I think you highlight that intervention aspect of the organizing industry is that we want to create a system that you don't need us for, but part of that is addressing all the quick fixes that have accumulated in someone's home.
00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:45.360
So it's like, you know, I'm in a client's house coming up in a few weeks, and uh the the amount of stuff in the kitchen and the pantry and the surrounding areas is just out of control.
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.559
And this woman says, you know, her daughter loves to bake.
00:13:48.960 --> 00:14:11.759
And you can tell that it is very much easier to either uh, you know, probably go to the grocery store, go to Target and buy$40,$50 worth of baking supplies and new sprinkles and new frosting and a new mix every time, and maybe even a new sifter or something, because it's just easier and it's not that expensive to go and buy the entirety that you need to do the baking.
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:25.679
But it's like, I can't wait till we pull everything out and show you actually have 20 trips to Target worth of baking supplies that got used and then put away because we don't discard, but we shove.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.679
And it's all that add to cart.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:36.559
And I actually, when you were talking, thought about there was a there's a there's some documentary out there, I think it's called Buy Now, but it's on I saw it on on Netflix.
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:37.600
It was about Amazon.
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.200
So I probably did not see it on Prime because it's a little critical of Amazon.
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:58.480
Um but it talked about how researchers came up with that merigold color button for the buy now, you know, like instead of the add to cart, but the buy now, and that there were like nine different colors researched about which one got people to buy now more frequently.
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:02.879
So, how can we get people to buy this moment, this instant?
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:16.720
And even just watching that and realizing that that research was done to influence me made me change my behavior to add Descartes and save for later a few days and and really not give into that buy now.
00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:32.799
And this this documentary also had that this image where it's an illustrator of a person lying in bed and they get the idea they need something, they go on their phone, and while they're sleeping, a conveyor belt drops the item at the foot of their bed.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:34.639
And it's like that is so true.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:41.600
And there's nights where I'm like, I should leave the lights on when I go to bed for that delivery driver who's gonna be here from 4 to 8 a.m.
00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.639
And it's like we don't need something that fast.
00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:53.840
And as a professional organizer, we're constantly seeing the Amazon, the the buy nows, you know, piling and piling up.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:00.399
But then what your your point makes um is the time it takes to address these things.
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:11.679
And so you infuse your book with stories throughout, like from your your working sessions with organizers from those days, and you bring, you know, this is what we were doing.
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:16.559
You contextualize it for people, you share these stories directly from being in the homes of people.
00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:27.840
Like there's one craft room that you that you talk about, and and I always call things human hours because so many people are hard on themselves because they're like, oh, I'll get that done tonight.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:33.519
And they can never get what they want to done tonight because there's not enough hours in a night to get it done.
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:46.159
And you talk about going through the entire craft room, you talk about you know going through the the sorting process with the client, the client leaves, you say she came back three hours later, there were four of you there working.
00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:53.279
So she came back three hours later, but she came back 12 human hours later, and then it was ready for her to review.
00:16:53.440 --> 00:17:03.759
And I think that's so important, and I appreciate that your work, you know, subtly and and obviously calls out the time it takes to do these tasks.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:14.480
And we need to honor that time, whether we're hiring somebody, you know, and and show that this actually takes time, and if you're going to pay for it, there's time involved with that.
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.200
But to also be easy on ourselves.
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:18.640
This takes time.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.519
If you're going to do this, don't think one evening can solve that problem.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.559
So thank you for just being attentive to that.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:33.279
Well, and I think also I mean, one of the things I am not a professional organizer, right?
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.079
I I I've worked alongside organizers, but I'm not one.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:36.799
But it doesn't matter.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.200
When I go talk about the book, people want tips.
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.960
They want my tips on organizing.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.720
And so I can say, look, I mean, I can speak to you as someone who has spent time with organizers.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:45.599
I, you know, I've got to be a good idea.
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:46.799
I mean, a hundred hours.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.680
You have done a lot of hours with organizers.
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:52.880
Yeah, more than a hundred hours, more than a hundred hours of on-hand organizing.
00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.119
And I still I still do it in my community for fun.
00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.960
I help organize the library at the local school and I and I help out friends.
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:04.000
One of my favorite things is to go to a friend's house and hang out with them while they organize and clean something.
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:07.039
And it's become like a way for them to be accountable.
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:08.960
And they always thank me for doing it.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:19.119
And I tell them, like, no, I this is so fun for me to help you sort your closet and then rearrange it all pretty so that when you open it, you're actually excited to wear the items that you have chosen to keep.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:22.559
You know, I'm I'm part of a group that organizes local clothing swaps.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:23.680
This stuff is fun for me.
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:29.759
And I know that is not necessarily how it is for everyone else, but but to speak to the point of time that you bring up.
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:38.720
I mean, on the one hand, all of these organizing reality shows were so good for professional organizing because they really brought attention and awareness to the field.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:45.920
Even in like 20, if I said I was studying organizers, most people, especially academics, but most people thought I was studying labor organization.
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:47.359
That happens a lot less often.
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:52.160
People know what organizing is if an organizer, they they mostly know who I mean, right?
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:59.839
And the shows did that, but the problem is the shows also created, I mean, they're entertainment and they're in a short form format.
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:06.720
So they kind of create the impression, even in people who are intelligent folks who who they know they would know better if they thought about it.
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:09.759
They create the impression that this is a quick fix.
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.519
And especially the shows that focus on issues of people with hoarding disorders.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:24.880
I mean, those are months of teams of dozens of people, and and also some sort of you know, TV magic in terms of editing in ways that amplify the the narrative they want to amplify, right?
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:30.480
Um, so I think there are a lot of people who have unrealistic ideas about how long this stuff takes.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:36.720
And and I so one of the tips I do offer when people ask me is you don't organize your house in a weekend.
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.759
You choose one little thing.
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.440
Choose a drawer, choose one cabinet, you know.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:49.599
I mean, the the games and puzzles in my house are always disorganized, and I'm not gonna sit down every day and make sure they're perfect.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:58.400
But every few months or so, when I have a minute, I might pull everything out, get rid of what you know, my kids grown out of or we don't want to do anymore, and and put everything back.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:04.319
And it takes me probably less than 15 minutes, but that part's done.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:18.240
And then some other day I'll pick some other thing, my shelf or my drawer, you know, it's sort of a part of an everyday life, as opposed to, I can promise you, I will never put aside an entire weekend to organize my home.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.160
I it just doesn't mean that much to me.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:25.839
But it means enough to me that I'll do little bits here or there so that it's it's working well enough for me.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.319
I do sometimes think if people read the book, they think they would come to my house and it's like perfectly organized.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:36.960
And I can a thousand percent guarantee you that it is not, but it's organized enough that it doesn't stress me out.
00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:44.319
And I'm I'm constantly when people come over, I say, look at my drawers, because sometimes the surface isn't organized, but like the drawers are immaculate.
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.759
Um and and I welcome people to open every one of them.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:49.279
Okay, we're gonna take a quick break.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.400
This we are with Carrie Lane, More Than Pretty Boxes.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.599
And when we come back, we're gonna talk about that title: More Than Pretty Boxes.
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.000
This is Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:01.279
We'll be right back.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:14.559
Welcome back to Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston on AM950.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.599
I am here today with Carrie Lane.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:27.519
So, Carrie Lane is the author of More Than Pretty Boxes: How the Rise of Professional Organizing Shows Us the Way We Work Isn't Working.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:34.160
And I am the owner of Space by Space Organizing and identify as a professional organizer.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:45.920
And I'm thrilled that this brilliant woman here, Carrie, has spent you know, a decade of focused energy on what's going on in the organizing industry.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:58.880
So not only has she have you, Carrie, gone back in time to the the first mention of organizing and clutter, but then you've followed historically how the industry really came to be.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:10.480
And then even the fact that The fact that it was a focus of yours for a decade or more, it allowed you to really be pulling things in as they were, you know, evolving in that decade alone.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:22.319
You know, there's like a mini attentive focus in that time where you were really working alongside organizers, but then this huge scope behind where you probably know more about our industry than most organizers.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.079
And your title is more than pretty boxes.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:32.319
And at you've talked about potentially titling the book, it's not about the stuff.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:38.400
So tell me about your title and both titles, you know, and the subtitle.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:48.720
But tell me about that kind of those key findings that informed what you wanted to be front and center in the ultimate consumable of all this research.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:23:02.400
Yeah, so the original title that I, my working title as I was doing the project was not about this stuff, because I heard that again and again and again from the organizers that I was interviewing and working alongside, that they were saying organizing is really not about the stuff.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.039
It's about the people, it's about the emotions around the stuff, it's about relationships.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:15.839
And, you know, people can say that all they want, but when I was in the field working alongside organizers, you see it in this really concrete way.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:24.559
Organizing is not really, I mean, organizers have wonderful skills around space management and design, aesthetics, organization, or all of it.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.119
But that's really not the heart of the field.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:41.359
The heart of the field is meeting people where they are, people who are often stressed, self-critical, overwhelmed, struggling to function smoothly on a daily basis in one capacity or to one extent or another, right?
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:52.799
And meeting them where they are, bringing a lack of judgment, bringing empathy, and sort of making sure that they understand that they're a perfectly good, fine human.
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.720
And this is just stuff.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:59.200
But so what organizers say is, oh, the hardest part is not like color-coding firewall folders, right?
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.880
The hardest part is the human part because it is so different from job to job.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:11.759
And it also requires a different kind of labor, one that I have found professional organizers are incredibly good at.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:26.240
So when you were following people and working alongside them, how frequently were you seeing those moments where it's not even about the stuff that it's actually about a conversation that needs to be happening in between the touching of the stuff?
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:32.799
Yeah, I mean, every single job almost that not every job is emotionally weighted, right?
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.359
I mean, I can imagine I can remember certain jobs I worked on.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.440
We were unpacking a family's kitchen.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.359
Um I I talk about the story in the book.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.559
I talk about mugs, but we're unpacking a family's kitchen after they moved.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:44.559
And it wasn't, we weren't decluttering.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.839
They lived in an enormous mansion in the Kardashian neighborhood.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.240
And um And they had a couple kids.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.119
They they they were busy people.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:53.839
Yeah.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.720
And they didn't and they didn't have to get rid of anything.
00:24:57.039 --> 00:24:59.920
So it, you know, that that takes a lot of the emotion out of it.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.799
It becomes really more about what's pretty, what's functional.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:08.480
And you know, we're gonna put this away for you, and it's gonna make a really good amount of sense and it'll look great.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.599
It will be pretty, yeah, but it will be very functional.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:24.079
There there was, you know, function that they might not have thought of if they put it away themselves, because professional organizers do organize more kitchens per capita than a person that doesn't do this professionally.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:40.000
So, but yeah, but you I agree, yes, and sometimes you I'm moving someone the next couple days, and there's some emotion to it, but with the timeline and with you know what we've got to get done, it's really about dusting things off, putting them in boxes, bringing them to the next place, unpacking those boxes.
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.039
You know, they won't be the prettiest boxes this time, but that's just we're getting it from here to there.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:56.160
But so much of organizing, and that's what I love about what your research really elevates is those moments in between and those conversations in between and the emotions in between.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:57.920
Absolutely.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:12.799
And I mean, one of the things that that is a core part of that that we kind of touched on a little bit earlier, is a lot of this also has to do with the expectations people carry about themselves and their space, what their space is supposed to look like, what their schedule is supposed to allow them to do.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:27.359
And it's not always gendered, but it's often gendered in a way that, you know, studies have shown that women bear much more responsibility for the work of managing homes, even when multiple people are in their household and they're working and it doesn't matter.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:32.319
It tends to fall on the women in, you know, a situation where there are men and women living in the house.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:41.279
And also that women tend to be very hard on themselves because they think that if their house doesn't look a certain way, that it reflects on them personally, right?
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:55.039
And and men, well, certainly men don't necessarily love clutter and they may be as interested in or as good at organization, but they don't necessarily carry that emotional weight because society doesn't tell men that their worth is measured by how nice their home space looks like.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:00.799
And whether we as women accept or reject that narrative, it's a big cultural narrative that's out there.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:09.680
And so a lot of the organizing jobs I worked on, there were these really intense emotions around like should what we I always say, like, don't sudge yourself, right?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:12.559
Around like, I should have done this, I should be able to handle this myself.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:13.200
I should.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:17.759
And a lot of what organizers do is to say, oh, honey, you're fine, right?
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.359
Like you, you're, you know, this is unmanageable because life is unmanageable.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:32.960
So let's figure out some just concrete strategies to make things work a little better for you, while also reminding them that like these expectations you're setting for themselves, yourself are they're unrealistic.
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:42.400
Um, I, you know, I remember one of the organizers that I read about in the book talks about how, you know, she'll tell clients, I can 100% give you that perfect Pinterest pantry.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:47.599
If that's important to you, we can give you that, where everything's decanted beautifully into matching containers.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.400
And she said, but I just want you to know the people who have that, they have full-time staff who maintain those pantries.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:53.839
They're not doing it every day.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.319
So if you want that, we can do it for you.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:03.920
But you need to pause and think, does it matter enough to me that I'm gonna put in the time and labor and money it would take to have that pantry?
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.559
And for most people, the answer is no.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:16.160
And then they can kind of let go of that pressure they were feeling to somehow, you know, make their pantry match that the Pinterest one.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.160
I love that you make that point.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:37.200
And I I often say that our industry glamorizes over consumption because a lot of what we put online and a lot of what gets the brands, the organizer brands out there that are the most followed and that you know have the best social media content have some pretty beautiful before and afters.
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:48.240
And and that is so lovely and wonderful for the people who are able to afford that and and afford that much excess, as we've talked about.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:55.680
You know, that can be a something that people take a lot of pride in their belongings, and and it's great that they're able to showcase them.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:07.039
Um but it's also, you know, I I have a master's in international development, and I've spent a lot of my time thinking about real global issues and and working on them.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:20.319
And I feel that actually the work I'm doing right now is is more meaningful and I'm having a greater impact being in people's homes and doing the work that you're talking about, which is, you know, what's really going on here?
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:26.480
And how can I intervene in a way that that responds to that and holds space for that?
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.039
But yeah, I can do a pretty pantry too.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.440
You know, I can decant all your cereal and I can buy you all the fanciest things.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:44.319
You know, I mean, um, most organizers are just as as good at using cardboard boxes as we are at using, you know, fancy clear ones and nice labeling systems.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.799
Um, but I love that you you really create space for that.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.119
That this is about so much more than the pretty boxes.
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:55.359
Absolutely.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.000
And that's what draws so many women to the field, right?
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:08.960
Is the chance to do that meaningful human work to run your own business, to do the work the way you want to do it, and to help people who really need and value your help.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:24.400
I think that's what you you kind of hold space and honor both the people, the women who come to this line of work, as well as the largely women that come to the professionals to help them declutter and go through things.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.519
So like both the professional organizers and the clients.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:45.759
I was gonna share a story that for me exemplifies, you know, I I have this show so that I can pull back the curtain on my business and help people to feel not alone, you know, like, oh, I'm not the only one surrounded by my stuff, you know, and I'm I'm so honored now.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:51.599
I'm I've been doing this for almost half a year, and there are people who are coming who've met me through this show.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:58.240
And it's fun to go into their house and know that that they have an idea of who I am and what I stand for.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:06.880
And that was part of what attracted them to me was that I'm not just about the pretty boxes, but that the the not about the pretty boxes.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.279
So last night I was at a client's home.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:13.599
We've done a really big first start of work in our house.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:21.839
It's been four work sessions, three, three of us organizers, and there was a a decent sized bill invoice attached to that.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:29.359
And and I thought, you know, I think I think we need to just have like a a new consult, just say, okay, what's been done, where are we going?
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:31.119
Because it won't be as much.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.599
You know, these were the biggest work sessions that we had.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.720
But I just I felt like instead of sending an email, let's just get together and make sure we're on the same page.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.480
There's a lot going on for her.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.720
And I just wanted to be in person.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.400
So I said, how about I come over?
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.200
We'll size up where we're at and where we're going.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:48.640
She's like, love that idea.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:49.200
Thanks.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:51.839
And so I go there, she's sitting on her patio outside.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:54.079
We ended up sitting outside for three hours.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:59.680
And I shared with her, I had brought your book with me, and I shared with her that we'd be having this conversation today.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:13.519
And it was more about more than about the pretty boxes, because this woman is enormously successful in her career, has done so much independently for herself, is a single mom by choice of two daughters.
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.200
I mean, she is, she carries a lot.
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:29.759
And and she also holds on to a lot because she honors those memories and the people in her life along the way and doesn't want to lose them by, you know, throwing out something attached to them.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.119
So there's a renovation happening in her house this summer.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:45.119
I got brought on by the renovators, the remodelers, to be able to help declutter to actually allow this renovation to not only happen, but then be as rewarding as the investment is going to be for her.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.039
And I'm sitting with her and I said, you know, it's not about the stuff.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:50.720
And I shared a story.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:58.000
I studied abroad in China in 2008 in undergrad, and my friends and I went on a bus trip for a weekend to Inner Mongolia.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.160
Halfway through, we got in a bus accident.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.400
It was traumatizing for me.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:15.200
I didn't realize just how much, honestly, until the Hudson miracle on Hudson plane crash, and I heard psychologists describe what happens to people who go through a moment where they think their life's going to be taken from them.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:27.279
And so I was sharing with her about this accident and how, you know, a few friends and I we got tickets back to Beijing that night so that we could fly home and just get back to our tiny little rooms, but our safe space.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.839
And I'm at the airport and I'd been on a bus.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.079
So I had brought full-size toiletries.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.799
And we're going through this new origins, checks and balances, frothy face wash.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:38.240
It was fancy for me at the time.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:39.039
I was in college.
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.359
My mom had just brought it when she came to visit.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:43.839
It was like a$35 brand new bottle.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:47.279
And I'm like using my minimal Chinese, like ting ting, you know.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.240
I mean, like, it was just in the middle of a rural Chinese airport.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.440
They're like, who is this girl?
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.599
This, you know, I'm surprised they let me through.
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.279
And I go behind a po pedestal and I'm crying.
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:00.640
And I tell my friend, it's not about the face wash.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:04.720
You know, it was like, please don't take one more thing from me today.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:10.000
You know, like I'm I feel so on edge and so spent.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:13.440
And I just, I just wanted to go home with my things, you know.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.760
I just wanted to go back with my face wash.
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:19.519
And so that's not about the pretty boxes or more than pretty boxes.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:21.199
It was about more than the face wash.
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:31.199
But this client, she's she's got these daughters and she's got a lot of squishmallows, you know, those very lovely, cute, adorable plushies.
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.480
And the girls, um, they were around for the first part.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.280
Now they're at summer camp and we're gonna dive deeper and deeper.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:41.440
But I wanted the girls to see the effort for those human hours we talked about.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.719
So that these girls are like, Mom, why do you come home and you can't get this done?
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:50.719
It's like, because it took 12 human hours, you know, and I don't have laundry, and I can't text, and I can't scroll.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:51.760
I'm here to work.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.400
We all are, so it's taking this dedicated time.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:58.000
But I said, your girls want those squishmallows gone.
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:02.639
And it's it they they want you to let them grow, you know.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.840
They they want to grow, and holding on to that is holding on to that younger version of them.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.159
And it's like she loved that younger version.
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:18.719
But I'm like, but if you don't let the space be there for their new versions of themselves, they're the ones that are gonna go to college and be like, I'm free, you know.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:30.079
And it's like, but if you allow them to grow and you grow with them and you release the squishmallows that served five, seven years ago, but not today, then you'll let something new in.
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.639
And as they become adults, you'll be travel companions.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.480
And as, you know, like you want to hold space for each other to grow.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:41.920
And so, you know, there's a lot of relationship dynamics that happen within us within a house, too.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:51.199
And it was just nice to be able to use those few examples of your research on the entire industry, it's more than the boxes, the pretty boxes.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:55.519
My experience to her to say it's it's more than the face wash.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:58.079
There's always more behind the thing, the stuff.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:08.159
And then, and it's not about the squishmallows, but the squishmallows represent something, you know, and the pretty boxes represent this feeling that we have order in our lives.
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:15.360
And and so, you know, I just I appreciate the depth of your research within that.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:27.599
And and we'll go to a break and and close soon, but is there anything else you want to share about that pretty boxes, not about the stuff, the emotional depth of what happens in the professional organizing industry?
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:40.639
I I think just to speak quickly to the stories you told, which really, you know, they speak to me and and they remind me so much of so many stories like that, where what organizers do is to figure out the story behind the stuff.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:45.920
Like one of them, you know, a number of organizers told me, you know, I gotta find out first where it hurts, right?
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:55.440
And where it hurts is often around the stuff that, you know, maybe it's the things you acquired because you wanted to be a certain kind of person and you know that never worked out for you.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:07.280
And so letting go of them and shedding that idea of the person you might have become, maybe it is things that you associate with, maybe it's a past marriage, maybe it's your child's youth, maybe it's a profession you're no longer doing, you retired from it.
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:12.639
But it's it's hard to let go of, you know, those books you used to use in your job as an engineer, right?
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.079
And and I think, you know, you what you said also reminded me of.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.760
I I think the gentle art of Swedish Death Cleaning is just a wonderful book.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.800
Margarita Magnuson, she actually recently passed away, that author.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:23.840
So sad.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:24.960
I know, right?
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:27.920
I had a vision of of having a gin and tonic with her.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.800
She has this YouTube video of herself making a gin and tonic.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.639
She drinks it, she realized she forgot the gin.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:33.920
She's just adorable.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.920
She called herself somewhere between 80 and 100.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:36.719
I've talked a lot.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:38.639
My family was in the funeral business.
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:45.199
Um, so I'm very, you know, listeners to the show know that I love to talk about how death is a motivator.
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:48.320
But I'm her book is so beautiful.
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.800
And and what I think people miss is they think it's gonna be dark, and it is so light, that book.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:01.039
And one of the things that spoke to me so much about the book, even though I'm, you know, I'm in my 50s, I'm I've got a way to go before I'm thinking about that next phase of life.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:08.159
However, what she said is good for everyone to think about, which is that you want to have things around you that serve the person you are right now.
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:20.159
And so that idea that it's like disrespectful to let go of something from the past, or that it it somehow speaks to the nature or depth of your relationship with someone if you let go of things connected to them.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:28.079
No, it's about shedding some of the old to make room for who you are currently and who you want to be in the future.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.039
And I think that framing is really helpful.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.360
It's not about like stern taskmasters who are making you get rid of beloved items.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:46.159
Organizing is about creating the space for you to be living the way you want to live now and making room for like all the exciting stuff that we don't even know that lies ahead for us.
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.199
One of my catchphrases is I'm not anti-stuff.
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:51.760
I'm anti-stuff getting in the way of your life.
00:38:52.079 --> 00:39:00.239
And I think what you also just brought up is like sometimes something that you might have stuffed away in a box might be better displayed.
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:06.559
You know, if you have a note from somebody who means a lot to you, maybe frame it and put it where you're gonna see it every day.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:10.559
I have quirky little funny sentimental things throughout my house.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:19.039
Like I could give you the longest tour of my house if you ever wanted it, because I surround myself with things that make me smile and delight me.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:37.440
But if those are stuck in boxes far away and you're not even able to access these things that you're hanging on to, you know, we we can rework the storage even, you know, and we can, you know, so sometimes we stuff things away and it's like that's still adding to the energy of what our house is sitting upon, even if it's tucked back behind the basement.
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:41.920
You know, it's like, let's let's bring it out and figure out what's going on here.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:46.239
So, okay, we're gonna take a quick break and come back to close out this conversation.
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:50.800
I am so enjoying you and so enjoying your work and so grateful that you've done it.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:58.079
So we're here with Carrie Lane, author of More Than Pretty Boxes, Colleen Watterston of Space by Space Organizing on Sorting Through Life.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:39:59.599
We will be right back.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:15.280
All right, welcome back to Sorting Through Life with Colleen Watterston from Space by Space Organizing here in the Twin Cities.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:26.639
I am so thrilled to be joined today by Carrie Lane, author of More Than Pretty Boxes, a an ethnographic research study of the professional organizing industry at large.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:40.480
Carrie, I have so appreciated hearing your feedback from an outsider's perspective who really put themselves in the organizing industry as much as you could while maintaining that researcher perspective.
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:58.960
And I was telling you about, I did a research project of my own without a university behind me, but um a little over 10 years ago, and I've talked about this on the show, I traveled around the world and asked over 700 people across 40 countries the same three questions.
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:00.960
What does a good life mean to you?
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.079
In your opinion, what's the biggest threat to humanity today?
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.880
And what do you think the world will be like 50 years from now?
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:13.199
And I did the first month in the United States and asked over 150 people across the US those questions.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:22.239
But I have a hundred thousand word manuscript that I need to clean up and and put out in the world so that I can have that behind me, you know, finish something I've started.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:26.079
But so much in recent years I've come back to that first question.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:28.320
What does a good life mean to you?
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:45.280
And I've realized how the influence of so many people's answers and really exposing myself to different people's worldviews has kind of m inspired me to come home and design and build a really good life for myself.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:48.000
And I and I love the life that I live now.
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:55.119
I love the friends that I have, the relationships with family and friends, and and I love my job and I love what I'm doing.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:42:12.960
But then this business that I'm doing of going into people's homes and helping to make sense of of the stuff and the stuff behind the stuff, it's like I really feel like I'm doing my best to bring a good life to my clients, you know, and to help them get out of their own way so that they can live a good life.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:19.039
And so I just want to kind of talk to you about that because you you really talk about that.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:27.519
You you saw that these organizers that you were working alongside wanted that best life possible for the people they were serving.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:34.719
So can you just share your your takeaway thoughts on on the intention behind what we do?
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.159
Sure.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:41.119
Well, first of all, I'm so glad you're gonna finish that book and put it out in the world because I would love to read it.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:42.159
I'm fascinated.
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:51.360
Um, and and I look forward to the chance maybe in the future to talk to you about you what the experience was like of wandering the world and getting to talk to people about those questions.
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:52.400
I I love it.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:58.480
Um, but yeah, I think, you know, we live in such a sort of frantic, busy world.
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:04.639
Even when we're not actually busy, I think we feel busy for all sorts of various reasons.
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:12.880
Um, technology, uncertainty, political crises, cultural changes, you know, wafting all around us, all of those things.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:14.159
We feel so busy.
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:34.960
And one of the things organizers do is they create the space, like the literal time in the day to stop and pause and think about what in your life is working and you want to work to protect that, to hold it dear and keep it, and what in your life is is not working, and that doesn't have to be stuff, but it might be stuff.
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:39.199
Um and and how can we help you to live a better life?
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.920
And to to do that, to really engage with that, it takes time.
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.199
And time is something most of us feel like we don't have.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:59.840
And I think that's one of the gifts that organizers can give to their clients is time to actually stop and think about what do you want your life to look like, and then come up with a concrete, specific plan to try to make that happen.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.679
Because as we talked about so much of the time, it's not about the stuff.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:09.119
It's about what the stuff represents in the past, in the present, in the future, about who we are, about what our life looks like.
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:18.719
And, you know, organizers help you figure out how I can make my life better and more suited for me and my values and priorities.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:27.519
And I think that you exemplify how from the beginning of this industry, that was that was always the goal.
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:38.000
And the industry has evolved, the offerings have evolved, but it has remained the driving force of the people who choose it as a profession and choose to hire that profession.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:45.360
But I'm curious in the last few minutes here, what you think is ahead for this industry when it comes to offerings.
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:51.280
There will always be the ability to have in-home organizers, and that is growing exponentially.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:57.199
But what else do you see coming up with the trends that you've studied in the past?
00:44:57.679 --> 00:44:59.599
Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:06.719
One thing I think I see already we see a real rise of digital organizing, people who can help organize your digital clutter.
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.960
I mean, just the amount of information coming at us every day through various sources.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:13.679
So I think there's going to be a lot of growth in that area.
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:21.199
I think there's going to be a lot more attention to organizing one's attention, the things we pay attention to.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:27.440
I'm currently going through a moment of shedding aspects of technology, social media.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:32.639
My husband calls me an early rejector because I'm like, oh, TikTok, that sounds interesting.
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:33.360
My students love it.
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:35.920
I download it, I look at it, I'm like, nope, done, delete.
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:37.599
That's a book title.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:39.840
I'm not dedicating any time to that, right?
00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:56.880
So I think helping people get rid of the distractions that prevent us from really being present in the course of our lives for the things that we love and find ourselves distracted from, even as we're, you know, this is the thing we love, this is the life we wanted, and here we are not paying attention to it because we're distracted by other things.
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.280
So I think that's one field, one direction.
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:04.079
The other thing that I think is really fascinating is organizing as a business.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.800
People do it to make a living, right?
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:13.360
Um, they don't necessarily do it for the money, but people who do it do it in order to make a living to one degree or another, right?
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:25.360
And yet, most organizers that I talk to would be thrilled to go out of business because all of their clients got the skills they needed to organize themselves in the future, right?
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.599
Like most organized organizers I talked to are like, oh, I'd love to put myself out of business.
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:31.440
They see themselves as teachers.
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:36.480
Not everyone can or wants to learn those skills, but many people can.
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:46.159
And so a lot of the organizers I spoke with talked about trying to bring organizing out into the world outside of the paid context of an organizer-client relationship.
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.960
So, should organizing be taught in elementary schools, right?
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:51.199
I mean, I have my I have a 12-year-old.
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.800
His elementary school focused a lot on executive functioning skills.
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.519
Organization is part of that, right?
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:07.280
And so what if organizing could become part of the curriculum so that students are learning not just how to organize their homework, but to organize the spaces around them as well.
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:15.440
A lot of the organizers I worked with do pro bono work where they work with clients for free who are in crisis or can't afford their services.
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:22.880
And they're looking for opportunities for organizing to be free and available, so that you don't have to be wealthy.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:25.039
You don't have to live in an urban area.
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:33.360
You don't have to have those privileges in order to gain the benefits of an organized life.
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:41.679
Well, and I hope that this show adds value to people to be able to be inspired, to go and organize themselves, to pick up good resources that can help in that process.
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.920
Thank you so much for being here, Carrie.
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:47.840
This is Colleen Watterston with Sorting Through Life on AM950.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.039
We'll see you next time.
