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Welcome to the Smarticle Podcast and our
series on digital and online scams.
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Today, I'm talking with
writer Justin Caffier.
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Justin is an East Coast transplant
now living in LA and he has written
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for Vice and Complex as well as
many other news and journal sites.
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I wanted to talk with Justin today
because Justin was a victim of our very
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first focus scam, which are known as gig
work site scams or freelance site scams.
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There are many legitimate freelance
sites out there, including Fiverr,
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Twine, and Upwork being some
of the most well known sites.
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And these are legitimate sites that can
help people find full and part time work.
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But just like so many other online
platforms, they have attracted scammers.
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Today, we're going to be talking
specifically about scams on
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the freelance site Upwork.
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A couple of weeks ago, I almost
fell victim to a scam on Upwork.
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It was pretty shocking for me.
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I could not believe that I
had almost fallen for a scam.
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And it got me wondering about
scams in general, how they
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worked and who fell for them.
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In my research following my own experience
going down the Upwork scam hole, I
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stumbled on an amazing article by Justin.
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He had written it for the news website
Mashable, and the article does a
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masterful job of explaining what Upwork
is and how scammers use the site.
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Before we even get started today, I
wanted to read the first few paragraphs
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of his article titled, I Got Scammed
By Upwork So You Don't Have To, My 475
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Lesson in Gig Economy Exploitation.
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I Got Scammed By Upwork So You
Don't Have To, My 475 Lesson
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in Gig Economy Exploitation.
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Typically, I don't read long excerpts
like this, but it really helps to set
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the stage for talking with Justin and
explaining what these scams look like.
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From Justin's article in Mashable,
Last November, I was reeling from the
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sudden back to back disintegration
of my two most recent employers.
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My lingering self respect, along with
a glance at the all time low wages
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now being offered by the driving
and delivery apps that once kept me
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afloat during the gaps in my freelance
writing career, stopped me from
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revisiting those abusive relationships.
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But things were getting undeniably grim.
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That's when I recalled a
potential life preserver
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mentioned by a fellow writer pal.
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Upwork, a freelance platform that
wisely rebranded from ElansoDesk
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in 2015, With the subtly fatalistic
slogan, this is how we work now.
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Over a ketchup coffee a year
earlier, my buddy told me he'd
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found surprise success on Upwork.
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He spoke of well paid, fun sounding
gigs who landed ghostwriting wedding
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speeches and wine group mom chat zingers.
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A glance his profile page indicated
that having worked a mere 85 hours,
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his lifetime earnings on the platform
were already listed at 10, 000 That
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plus symbol was downright decadent.
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My friend assured me that once I
had a few initial Upwork jobs and
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their subsequent reviews under
my belt to help establish my.
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Quote job success score unquote the metric
essential for being shown to potential
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employers by the site's algorithm
I too could join him in the digital
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promised land Justin that is awesome.
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This article was found in mashable.
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I Drilled down a rabbit hole after I
got scammed on up working up the basic
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backstory for me was I went on to up
work A friend had told me about it.
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I thought, Oh, this could be cool.
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I can meet other podcasters.
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It's freelance work.
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I was like, Oh, this could be cool.
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I went on within one week, the very first
job that ever reached out to me turned
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out to be an amazingly complex scam.
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Now I didn't lose any money.
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But I did lose the time
of dealing with it.
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I had to do this hour interview,
which was on a document.
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And it was just, I learned so many things
from this, but I saw your article and
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I thought, man, what an amazing story.
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The whole purpose of this series
is to wake people up to the
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fact this stuff is going on.
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So I'd love it if you tell us a little
bit about this, you looking for work,
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you see this thing sounds great.
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This guy's making money doing this.
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He's a writer.
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It's a freelance gig.
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So what happens to you?
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Like, a lot of writers out there,
you always have to be looking
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for the next meal ticket and,
casting your net far and wide.
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And Upwork was just one more Avenue.
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to explore.
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Right.
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It was suggested to me.
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I was, sniffing around the site, came
across this one client who had provide
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would a pretty consistent record.
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He'd been on the platform for a while.
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As the article points out, I
couldn't see his reviews at the time.
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Why was that?
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They, there was just, there just happened
to be I'm not gonna go conspiracy mode
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or anything like that, but there happened
to be some site maintenance going on
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where they didn't have those up at
the time of my, they were like, this
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is a, how this all shakes out, had I.
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I've seen those.
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Some of the comments are
like, this guy is a scammer.
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He won't pay you.
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So can you explain to us what it
means when you go onto the site?
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What does it look like?
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What are you looking at?
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Everybody that's on there is a freelancer.
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What are you looking at?
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What did, what's, what
are you looking for?
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I guess.
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Think of it as like a sort of a market
or bizarre, but you're scrolling
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through the page and each of the
stalls is a merchant or a client.
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Offering you a tantalizing Job
prospect, whether it's in, in my case
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writers, there's stuff like write
my short fiction story for me, write
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my son's graduation speech,
like that kind of stuff.
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But then there's also coding,
there's a graphic design, any of the
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white collar jobs that you can do
remote are now available freelance
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on these kind of platforms and.
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What you're seeing is a small
description of the work that you'd
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be doing, as well as the pay.
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And on Upwork, to apply to this,
which, on Craigslist, you can go on
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to click any ad or apply or whatever.
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But on Upwork, you have to spend a
little bit of the proprietary currency
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on the platform to even apply to a job.
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That's to keep ostensibly people from
just applying to every single thing.
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Watering down the entire purpose of
it, but it's become a lucrative money
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making venture for Upwork itself.
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So you buy these things called connects,
you pay a little bit of extra money.
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It's not super, it's not, 15 or whatever.
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I don't even know what it is.
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It's a dollar per fence
along, but it's like.
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A dollar for ten maybe.
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I could be getting that wrong.
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And you basically, you bid on
a job using these connects so
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that you can apply for a job.
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That's ostensibly what's
going on in this world.
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So you're saying, I like, Oh,
this sounds like a great job.
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I'm going to spend X amount of connects
that I have in my bank account, my Upwork
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account, whatever you want to call it.
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And then that allows you
to apply for the job.
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So you see this guy on there that
sounds interesting and what happens?
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Yeah.
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He's asking for someone to
write a sort of like narrative
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description of an individual.
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He's being a little cagey about
it, but it's like a fluff piece.
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He's like, I'll provide
all the information.
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Just turn this into a narrative.
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I assumed it was going to be for
something like a law firm and it
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ended up being something like that.
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And it's just a, someone wants to showboat
themselves a little bit, make themselves
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look good to their prospective clients.
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And I've done that kind of work
before and everything was provided,
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research is the hardest part of
that sort of writing at times.
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So that was the kind of work
that would be presented.
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Okay.
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And I talked with the guy and he was
very communicative, he was a real person.
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He was pretty quick to reply to things.
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So when you say you talked to
him, did you talk to him through,
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direct message or you didn't talk
to him on the phone or anything?
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Just through direct, see this is,
just through direct message on
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Upwork, they are very, they caution
you against doing any sort of
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interaction outside of the platform.
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This is under the guise of It all being
for safety reasons, which yes, that is
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a protective measure, but it's also to
make sure that if you go off platform
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and you start striking deals without
us involved, we're not getting our cut.
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That's a big part of it.
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We're doing this all within the
chat on the chat box on Upwork.
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Okay.
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So he's DMing you, you're
going back and forth.
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And then where does it go from there?
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He.
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Suggests that, Hey, like he
asked for some sample writing.
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I sent some stuff over and
he goes, it's pretty good.
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Would you be interested in,
what would your rate be?
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If I, when did you do this
multiple times a week?
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I said, I was like, Oh, wow
this could be consistent work.
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Great.
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I said I would have to do a test run to
just, get a feel for what it is actually.
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And I can give you my rate after
that, but it could be, commensurate
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with what we're talking about here.
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So he says okay how about this?
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I'm going to put in a, I'm going
to misquote my own story right
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now, but he essentially says, I'm
going to put in a, like a small
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deposit in the escrow account.
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That is the bank for our operations.
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And you work on this
and tell me the hours.
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And because we don't know
how long it's going to take.
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And I said, yeah, okay.
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That makes sense.
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This is how writing has worked for me.
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This is how you invoice for
hours after the fact this is just
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the water I've been swimming.
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I even double checked though.
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I say, Hey, just to make sure I want to
make clear, I'm going to do this work
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and I'm going to tell you the amount of
hours and then you're going to pay me for
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those hours at the already agreed upon
rate, not this to be determined bulk rate.
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He's like, yep, that's correct.
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So I ran it by my lawyers, I
was like, this is a contract.
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This is real.
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And I did the work.
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He gave note, gave edits.
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I did the edits.
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And then he ghosted me disappeared.
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I was like, Oh, and the small
amount he'd put in an escrow was 5.
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Okay.
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And that was all that was released to me.
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Hmm.
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So, this is the part that gets
me that's a little bit unclear.
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Not in your case, but in just with Upwork.
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How does he get away with ghosting you?
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There's a contract in place.
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You talk about that in your article.
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He said, I'm going to pay you this.
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How is it that no, where, what
was your req, I know because I
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read the article, but tell us what
happens when that happens to you.
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What do you do about it?
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He's operating under the presumption
that if I do it for this amount of
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money, nobody's going to be bothered
to go through with like small
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claims court to fight me about it.
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And so I can just keep doing this ad
infinitum, getting whatever I need with
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an endless stream of suckers until.
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I'm kicked off the platform,
or I run out of suckers.
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Yeah, I guess this is the
tough part for me, because
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this is where the scam lies in.
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You could simply say, hey, this is
one guy that's doing this, and he's
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figured out how to game the system.
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But at some point, someone
somewhere within Upwork has
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to know this is going on.
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Now I'm not accusing anybody of anything.
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I'm just simply saying that if,
did you report this to Upwork?
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You don't have to accuse them anything.
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I'll accuse them for you.
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They accuse themselves.
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They, in their SEC filings, they
acknowledge, they're quite aware of
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this problem and they acknowledge
the risks that these scammers
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place on the business itself.
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When, what happened to me, I went
through the process, alerting people
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next, support and I wasn't even,
I wasn't, I was never saying, Hey,
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pay what this guy promised me.
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I'm set.
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I was like, Hey, you have a skit.
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I was, being a little.
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I was like, Hey, you have a bad guy,
you should do something about it and
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they never did something about it.
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00:12:57,003 --> 00:12:58,393
And he keeps doing it, correct?
234
00:12:59,383 --> 00:13:04,803
I haven't looked lately, but as we were
getting ready to print the, his account
235
00:13:04,953 --> 00:13:12,063
we kept running it by Upwork their PR
team and they flagged him in some way.
236
00:13:12,083 --> 00:13:16,523
He was no longer able to communicate with
me, but this was like after I. So he may
237
00:13:16,523 --> 00:13:20,223
have disappeared, but he could have come
back as somebody else ultimately, right?
238
00:13:20,223 --> 00:13:20,293
Yeah.
239
00:13:20,293 --> 00:13:20,308
Okay.
240
00:13:23,088 --> 00:13:27,958
Yeah, but the bigger issue is that
while I was pointing out pretty damning
241
00:13:27,958 --> 00:13:30,988
evidence of him saying yes I'm going
to give you this and not do this, you
242
00:13:30,988 --> 00:13:38,028
know I may have run afoul of the proper
etiquette from the policy SOP for doing
243
00:13:38,348 --> 00:13:45,438
a correct upwork task But I also was
showing you know teacher the proof of this
244
00:13:45,438 --> 00:13:51,913
guy scanning right they did not choose
to take any action against him Okay.
245
00:13:51,913 --> 00:13:54,213
And we don't know if they've
taken any action now.
246
00:13:54,693 --> 00:13:58,153
And multiple people before me had
raised similar complaints to Upwork.
247
00:13:58,643 --> 00:14:03,563
I do have that in the article
itself and their comments, I presume
248
00:14:03,573 --> 00:14:04,353
they didn't just leave a comment.
249
00:14:04,533 --> 00:14:08,143
I presume they also contacted
a support team at Upwork.
250
00:14:10,103 --> 00:14:14,113
I don't know if he's been kicked off or
they just prevented him from interacting
251
00:14:14,283 --> 00:14:20,103
with me because frankly, This is the
other part of my hypothesis is scammers
252
00:14:20,103 --> 00:14:23,403
like him benefit Upwork in some ways.
253
00:14:24,393 --> 00:14:31,893
They dangle such a tantalizing job out
there that it compels novice unfamiliar
254
00:14:31,893 --> 00:14:34,723
users spend those, what are they called?
255
00:14:34,723 --> 00:14:35,123
The Upwork?
256
00:14:35,123 --> 00:14:35,893
The Connects.
257
00:14:36,063 --> 00:14:36,393
Yeah.
258
00:14:36,753 --> 00:14:39,423
See I've already purged so
much of this from my brain.
259
00:14:39,493 --> 00:14:43,453
I only know this because it is so recent
for myself., you mentioned this in
260
00:14:43,453 --> 00:14:46,753
the article and I, it clicked with me.
261
00:14:46,753 --> 00:14:48,683
I was like, Oh, okay.
262
00:14:48,953 --> 00:14:53,173
So for me, in my case, what happened
was I saw this job that looked great.
263
00:14:53,423 --> 00:14:56,053
It was like the dream,
perfect audio editor.
264
00:14:56,053 --> 00:14:57,073
We want you to do this.
265
00:14:57,458 --> 00:14:59,958
I applied to it again.
266
00:14:59,968 --> 00:15:02,528
I was a novice, just like a lot
of people that are going on there.
267
00:15:02,528 --> 00:15:03,278
I'm like, Oh, okay.
268
00:15:03,278 --> 00:15:04,838
You apply here, give me my connects.
269
00:15:05,248 --> 00:15:06,618
And then I get this response.
270
00:15:06,828 --> 00:15:08,918
Hey, we really, we'd
like to talk to you now.
271
00:15:08,938 --> 00:15:12,218
Again, this is all done over DM.
There's no actual talking to anybody.
272
00:15:12,628 --> 00:15:15,733
And they gave me a. They said,
we want to interview you.
273
00:15:15,763 --> 00:15:17,963
It's going to be in a form.
274
00:15:18,183 --> 00:15:20,193
So immediately I'm like this is weird.
275
00:15:20,243 --> 00:15:21,383
You don't want to talk to me.
276
00:15:21,703 --> 00:15:22,593
And they started talking.
277
00:15:22,713 --> 00:15:26,203
So they give me this long
Google form that in retrospect
278
00:15:26,223 --> 00:15:28,113
was most likely created by AI.
279
00:15:28,123 --> 00:15:29,843
And the reason I say that is because.
280
00:15:30,253 --> 00:15:35,143
They, it was too perfect that only an
audio editor, only somebody that had
281
00:15:35,143 --> 00:15:38,873
edited podcasts or worked in that space
would know to ask these questions.
282
00:15:38,913 --> 00:15:40,613
They were just way too specific.
283
00:15:40,613 --> 00:15:42,793
So I'm like, wow, I'm crushing this thing.
284
00:15:42,803 --> 00:15:46,113
I know, it's like somebody says
something about your career
285
00:15:46,113 --> 00:15:47,093
and you're like, yes, I know.
286
00:15:47,493 --> 00:15:50,103
So I take this, it was like
an hour to fill it out.
287
00:15:50,923 --> 00:15:54,463
And then I went out and met a friend
out in, I live in Nashville, North
288
00:15:54,463 --> 00:15:57,293
Carolina, and I went out to a bar
and I get this immediate upwork.
289
00:15:57,578 --> 00:16:00,178
Posts like, Hey, we really
would like to offer you the job.
290
00:16:00,888 --> 00:16:02,108
They're offering me this job.
291
00:16:02,108 --> 00:16:06,248
And it's basically 70 an hour
to a hundred dollars an hour.
292
00:16:06,248 --> 00:16:08,008
They're going to start me
at this and then move me up.
293
00:16:08,218 --> 00:16:11,108
And it's, I'm like, Whoa,
this is 150, 000 a year.
294
00:16:11,108 --> 00:16:13,118
This is like a legitimate job.
295
00:16:13,118 --> 00:16:15,478
And I'm thinking to myself this
is the weirdest legitimate job.
296
00:16:15,748 --> 00:16:17,238
And immediately I had this just.
297
00:16:17,818 --> 00:16:18,658
Weird feeling.
298
00:16:19,308 --> 00:16:22,588
And the reason I had the weird feeling
is because I had gone off of the site.
299
00:16:22,598 --> 00:16:25,668
They'd given me a, an email address.
300
00:16:25,718 --> 00:16:28,808
Now I'd looked up the company they
were, and it was a legitimate company.
301
00:16:29,088 --> 00:16:30,018
Found it on LinkedIn.
302
00:16:30,018 --> 00:16:30,978
Everything seemed right.
303
00:16:31,178 --> 00:16:33,208
And they'd give me an
email, HR email address.
304
00:16:33,238 --> 00:16:34,188
I emailed them.
305
00:16:34,718 --> 00:16:37,928
And I remember in reading the Upwork
things, don't go off the site.
306
00:16:37,958 --> 00:16:41,308
And I'm like, okay, maybe this is
just how you do it in this case.
307
00:16:41,838 --> 00:16:43,808
I get this long email back.
308
00:16:43,838 --> 00:16:45,928
We're going to buy you all
this really high end equipment.
309
00:16:45,978 --> 00:16:50,858
They talked soup, like very specific
equipment that only podcasters would know.
310
00:16:50,868 --> 00:16:53,268
I was like, Oh, you're going
to offer me this thing.
311
00:16:53,278 --> 00:16:55,168
We don't want you to use
any of your own equipment.
312
00:16:55,398 --> 00:16:57,678
And I immediately started thinking
to myself, there's something wrong.
313
00:16:57,688 --> 00:17:00,628
And I. Talked to my wife, who's
very good at this kind of stuff.
314
00:17:00,858 --> 00:17:04,088
And she started doing a rich research
and she goes, I think this is a scam.
315
00:17:04,408 --> 00:17:08,028
She sent me a YouTube of
somebody, a video of somebody
316
00:17:08,028 --> 00:17:09,438
talking about Upwork scams.
317
00:17:09,758 --> 00:17:12,828
That was the first indication
I had that, Oh, wait a second.
318
00:17:12,838 --> 00:17:14,098
This happens all the time.
319
00:17:14,488 --> 00:17:16,918
And so I reached out to Upwork.
320
00:17:17,628 --> 00:17:19,938
I let them, Oh no, before
that, I take it back.
321
00:17:20,368 --> 00:17:23,158
I actually reached out to the
guy that was the principal in the
322
00:17:23,158 --> 00:17:24,488
company they were representing.
323
00:17:24,998 --> 00:17:27,128
On LinkedIn, I see my
wife's like, don't do that.
324
00:17:27,128 --> 00:17:27,958
It might be the real guy.
325
00:17:28,048 --> 00:17:30,428
And I'm like, I don't know, but
this seems too good to be true.
326
00:17:30,428 --> 00:17:32,448
And if it seems too good
to be true, it probably is.
327
00:17:32,918 --> 00:17:33,408
I emailed him.
328
00:17:33,408 --> 00:17:34,538
He goes immediately.
329
00:17:34,538 --> 00:17:35,328
He responds back.
330
00:17:35,338 --> 00:17:36,588
He's like, nope, that's a scam.
331
00:17:36,588 --> 00:17:39,448
They're using my company name
to, report that to Upwork.
332
00:17:39,898 --> 00:17:43,508
So I went back, reported to
Upwork, but here's the crazy part.
333
00:17:43,508 --> 00:17:44,048
And this sort of.
334
00:17:44,628 --> 00:17:46,728
Now, again, do I have any proof of this?
335
00:17:46,818 --> 00:17:47,608
Absolutely not.
336
00:17:47,628 --> 00:17:48,098
Don't know.
337
00:17:48,108 --> 00:17:51,038
It could be the algorithm could be
the amount of staff or whatever,
338
00:17:51,038 --> 00:17:54,998
but I reported this and it took
Upwork two days to take this down.
339
00:17:55,408 --> 00:17:58,368
That people were still applying
for this job two or three days
340
00:17:58,368 --> 00:18:02,068
later, which means every time
somebody applies, Upwork gets paid.
341
00:18:02,268 --> 00:18:06,568
So I don't know if that's just the part of
the process, but that was my experience.
342
00:18:06,588 --> 00:18:10,488
That, and I had this and I want
to ask, what was your feeling
343
00:18:10,848 --> 00:18:14,848
Your personal feeling when you
realized you'd been scammed?
344
00:18:15,428 --> 00:18:16,348
Like, how did you feel?
345
00:18:16,398 --> 00:18:16,968
Literally?
346
00:18:18,328 --> 00:18:20,218
I felt mostly pissed.
347
00:18:21,098 --> 00:18:21,308
Sorry.
348
00:18:21,308 --> 00:18:22,358
I don't know if I can say that.
349
00:18:22,598 --> 00:18:22,838
Say that.
350
00:18:22,838 --> 00:18:23,528
Yeah, you can say that.
351
00:18:23,778 --> 00:18:23,978
Yeah.
352
00:18:23,978 --> 00:18:24,728
Hey, we're on a podcast.
353
00:18:24,798 --> 00:18:25,558
We can say whatever we want.
354
00:18:25,578 --> 00:18:27,748
Pissed at the guy, but then.
355
00:18:28,213 --> 00:18:29,743
Pissing myself for of course.
356
00:18:29,793 --> 00:18:34,213
You are smarter than this kind of feeling
like you been around the block on the
357
00:18:34,213 --> 00:18:40,983
internet enough to, I should have seen
this coming, but it also really spite is
358
00:18:40,983 --> 00:18:47,573
such a huge motivator for me and that's
what drove me to dig so much deeper.
359
00:18:48,693 --> 00:18:53,243
Upwork and this guy than any
of his other victims would have
360
00:18:54,273 --> 00:18:56,283
I mean, I know where he lives.
361
00:18:56,283 --> 00:18:57,153
I know his family.
362
00:18:57,153 --> 00:18:58,583
I have like, really?
363
00:18:59,013 --> 00:19:02,703
Yeah, I have I and I didn't even do
any Oh, so it's a real person that
364
00:19:02,713 --> 00:19:05,403
you know, it's a real it's a real guy.
365
00:19:05,443 --> 00:19:09,563
I've contacted him some other ways
just to be like, Hey, man I would
366
00:19:09,573 --> 00:19:12,273
genuinely love to talk to you because
I'm not even mad at you anymore.
367
00:19:12,273 --> 00:19:14,943
It's, you are a fascinating character.
368
00:19:14,963 --> 00:19:21,633
He is someone who Is created an
entire, he is a perennial scammer.
369
00:19:21,733 --> 00:19:22,343
Really?
370
00:19:22,923 --> 00:19:29,623
He is one for the hall of fame because
he has been doing it within the online
371
00:19:29,633 --> 00:19:36,753
ecosystem for years going so far as
to create his LinkedIn page is a bunch
372
00:19:36,753 --> 00:19:38,223
of companies that he's worked for.
373
00:19:38,293 --> 00:19:44,183
And they're all fake companies that he
created and he's created a fake podcast.
374
00:19:44,983 --> 00:19:50,033
That has an AI British voice like
interviewing him to give himself clout
375
00:19:50,433 --> 00:19:57,028
he paid for a forbes article I can't
i'm alleging that he paid but you
376
00:19:57,028 --> 00:20:03,073
know allegedly but yeah, he's But he's
exploiting this very credulous like
377
00:20:03,433 --> 00:20:07,513
LinkedIn brain ecosystem in the business
space out there that are just like, Oh,
378
00:20:07,513 --> 00:20:12,303
everyone's like doing big things and we're
all grind setting our way to the top.
379
00:20:12,993 --> 00:20:15,893
And he's like, yeah, these
people will buy this up.
380
00:20:15,983 --> 00:20:21,983
And it got him to the point where
he was able to buy the domain or
381
00:20:21,983 --> 00:20:22,683
I'm starting up by the domain.
382
00:20:23,183 --> 00:20:23,723
But he.
383
00:20:23,723 --> 00:20:23,803
Yeah.
384
00:20:24,093 --> 00:20:26,703
Was given stewardship of the domain wine.
385
00:20:27,033 --> 00:20:33,173
com by this woman who was in her she
was like a woman in her sixties or
386
00:20:33,173 --> 00:20:37,533
seventies who had bought the domain in
the nineties and was just sitting on
387
00:20:37,533 --> 00:20:38,963
this as like, this is my retirement.
388
00:20:39,523 --> 00:20:45,223
And she hired this consulting firm
by my scammer to fatten it up,
389
00:20:45,253 --> 00:20:46,513
fatten up the cow for slaughter.
390
00:20:47,133 --> 00:20:49,953
And he didn't do much with it.
391
00:20:50,013 --> 00:20:52,273
And then when they were pecking around
Hey, are you doing something with this?
392
00:20:52,883 --> 00:20:56,853
He just started putting blog
posts to it, including interviews
393
00:20:56,853 --> 00:20:57,973
with porn stars he liked.
394
00:20:58,993 --> 00:21:03,033
He just likes doing writing, or
getting other people to do writing,
395
00:21:03,123 --> 00:21:04,993
and putting it up on places.
396
00:21:05,143 --> 00:21:06,313
All of his stuff is filled with blogs.
397
00:21:07,983 --> 00:21:08,813
That's the recurring theme.
398
00:21:09,478 --> 00:21:11,248
But how does he make his money from this?
399
00:21:11,488 --> 00:21:17,098
I don't know but he I mean he got a sale
of this like the contract for this wine.
400
00:21:17,288 --> 00:21:20,088
com thing And he ended up
being in court over it.
401
00:21:20,168 --> 00:21:25,168
I found all this in like court documents
that was like a multi million dollar sale
402
00:21:25,198 --> 00:21:31,538
and it's lost somewhere This woman got in
a bigger way than any of us I don't know
403
00:21:31,538 --> 00:21:38,168
the restitution agreement or anything,
but this guy is just Always scamming even
404
00:21:38,168 --> 00:21:43,803
to the point where These Twitter posts
are like the outside of Nobu in Malibu.
405
00:21:44,633 --> 00:21:46,723
Where it's like him pretending
to have just eaten there.
406
00:21:47,963 --> 00:21:48,743
Holy cow.
407
00:21:48,913 --> 00:21:52,243
So have you ever thought about doxing
is not the right word, but have
408
00:21:52,243 --> 00:21:54,103
you ever thought about outing him?
409
00:21:54,153 --> 00:21:56,153
Pretty sure I named him
directly in the article.
410
00:21:56,943 --> 00:21:57,783
Use his last name.
411
00:21:58,243 --> 00:22:01,303
I can't remember if you did or not,
but that's fascinating because it
412
00:22:01,303 --> 00:22:03,133
will go in my show notes for sure.
413
00:22:03,403 --> 00:22:08,053
It's part of the reason why we decided
to do this series on scams is because I
414
00:22:08,053 --> 00:22:11,803
think a lot of people think of grifters
and, it's like the old flim flam man who
415
00:22:11,803 --> 00:22:15,233
does the three card money and you're like,
Oh, that's never going to happen to me.
416
00:22:15,233 --> 00:22:16,123
I'm not going to do that.
417
00:22:16,583 --> 00:22:17,593
I consider myself.
418
00:22:18,163 --> 00:22:19,913
I'm a very suspicious guy.
419
00:22:20,013 --> 00:22:23,093
A lot of times, just like you said,
I've been down the internet rabbit hole.
420
00:22:23,143 --> 00:22:25,763
I know that a lot of this
stuff happens, but these people
421
00:22:25,763 --> 00:22:27,423
are so good at what they do.
422
00:22:28,563 --> 00:22:32,913
And they're so good at just
giving you enough to pull you in.
423
00:22:33,153 --> 00:22:34,753
And Upwork is a perfect example.
424
00:22:35,033 --> 00:22:38,063
You take people that are, and you
write it in there, you said, things
425
00:22:38,063 --> 00:22:42,123
were getting desperate, boy the
quickest mark is a desperate mark.
426
00:22:42,163 --> 00:22:45,163
And I think that had I been,
I was thinking about it.
427
00:22:45,163 --> 00:22:49,503
Had I been desperate for work, I
might've gone down this rabbit hole.
428
00:22:49,753 --> 00:22:51,513
I don't know where they
were going to take me.
429
00:22:51,808 --> 00:22:54,358
Cause I've still been like, how are
they going to make money off of this?
430
00:22:54,788 --> 00:22:57,568
I'm assuming that what they were
to do is going to send me, have me
431
00:22:57,578 --> 00:23:01,798
send a check or whatever, you would
have been reimbursed for the audio
432
00:23:02,008 --> 00:23:03,168
equipment or something like that.
433
00:23:03,708 --> 00:23:06,758
They would have said you buy it in
that exactly or send you the money or
434
00:23:06,758 --> 00:23:07,968
however way they were going to do it.
435
00:23:08,158 --> 00:23:08,398
Yeah.
436
00:23:08,418 --> 00:23:10,158
And so I feel very fortunate.
437
00:23:10,168 --> 00:23:14,488
Your article is I lost, I don't
know, 527 so you don't have to,
438
00:23:14,828 --> 00:23:15,958
which I thought was brilliant.
439
00:23:16,218 --> 00:23:19,888
I love the title of the article and
that's the purpose, the point of this.
440
00:23:19,888 --> 00:23:23,188
So let's talk in the last part
of this, I want to talk about the
441
00:23:23,188 --> 00:23:24,888
culpability of these companies.
442
00:23:24,888 --> 00:23:25,008
Thanks.
443
00:23:25,323 --> 00:23:27,573
Like Upwork YouTube, LinkedIn.
444
00:23:27,583 --> 00:23:30,313
We're going to be doing a show
on LinkedIn and LinkedIn scams.
445
00:23:31,423 --> 00:23:34,473
Do these companies have a
responsibility to you and me?
446
00:23:35,313 --> 00:23:37,563
And if they do, what should
they be doing about this?
447
00:23:37,643 --> 00:23:39,393
Because these grifters aren't going away.
448
00:23:39,553 --> 00:23:42,253
This guy's in full, you just
said, you just named him.
449
00:23:42,793 --> 00:23:44,523
So it's not like they
couldn't find this out.
450
00:23:44,883 --> 00:23:45,143
Yeah.
451
00:23:45,143 --> 00:23:50,293
I think they've created essentially
like a digital marketplace and
452
00:23:51,003 --> 00:23:53,733
it's their jurisdiction and.
453
00:23:54,503 --> 00:23:58,553
Accordingly, they need to have like
beat cops patrolling it, nabbing
454
00:23:58,733 --> 00:24:03,478
crooks and Especially when people,
in that jurisdiction are handing
455
00:24:03,478 --> 00:24:06,008
them crux and they just let them go.
456
00:24:06,088 --> 00:24:10,598
That is an abdication of duty
to protect their user base.
457
00:24:10,798 --> 00:24:11,058
Yeah.
458
00:24:11,138 --> 00:24:14,868
But it's not just like they have a
moral responsibility, like in their
459
00:24:14,898 --> 00:24:21,003
own SEC filings that I mentioned in the
article, they acknowledge we have a legal
460
00:24:21,003 --> 00:24:27,103
obligation and they're doing what so many
companies do these days, which is just.
461
00:24:29,023 --> 00:24:31,183
Yeah, the law says this, but
let's see how long we can get
462
00:24:31,183 --> 00:24:32,503
away with doing it this other way.
463
00:24:32,613 --> 00:24:34,673
And then pay the, I'm sorry fee.
464
00:24:35,163 --> 00:24:38,623
The, slap on the wrist thing that's
going to happen to us, inevitably.
465
00:24:38,923 --> 00:24:43,043
It's pure, I don't know the politics
of your podcast, but it is just.
466
00:24:43,848 --> 00:24:46,998
PlayStage Capitalism run
amok, end game stuff.
467
00:24:47,118 --> 00:24:49,288
This is what happens
to all these companies.
468
00:24:49,488 --> 00:24:53,358
That leads me into my next question
for you is that one would look
469
00:24:53,358 --> 00:24:56,308
at this and say, this cannot
be good long term for Upwork.
470
00:24:56,698 --> 00:25:00,928
If the place gets rid of you, I don't know
if you remember what Craig's List was like
471
00:25:00,928 --> 00:25:04,438
when it first started, but it was like
this heavenly panacea for all our stuff.
472
00:25:04,438 --> 00:25:05,488
This is great.
473
00:25:05,488 --> 00:25:06,468
I can go buy this or that.
474
00:25:06,468 --> 00:25:06,538
It's great.
475
00:25:06,708 --> 00:25:09,768
Now it's, at least from my
experience, it's a bit of a cesspool
476
00:25:10,068 --> 00:25:12,518
and a lot of people don't use
Craigslist anymore because of that.
477
00:25:12,778 --> 00:25:14,788
So is that same thing
going to happen to Upwork?
478
00:25:14,938 --> 00:25:15,788
It already is.
479
00:25:15,838 --> 00:25:16,088
What do you mean?
480
00:25:16,088 --> 00:25:17,368
It's not, is it going to happen?
481
00:25:17,958 --> 00:25:20,038
What I'm saying is that,
is it going to hurt them?
482
00:25:20,138 --> 00:25:21,508
No, I get the scam thing.
483
00:25:21,518 --> 00:25:25,858
What I'm asking is, do you think
people, true freelancers, Who might
484
00:25:25,858 --> 00:25:27,508
go on there and actually find work.
485
00:25:27,508 --> 00:25:30,908
And they're going to make money for
finding, putting people together.
486
00:25:30,938 --> 00:25:32,778
That's the whole idea.
487
00:25:33,178 --> 00:25:36,938
I don't think Upwork will
be around in 10 years.
488
00:25:36,998 --> 00:25:39,038
I don't think their
stock keeps going down.
489
00:25:39,408 --> 00:25:42,878
Their CEO keeps selling
the divested stock.
490
00:25:43,748 --> 00:25:44,438
They're.
491
00:25:44,788 --> 00:25:51,328
Business model has shifted to exploiting
an X and they're moving away from
492
00:25:51,518 --> 00:25:56,488
tithing their VIG or whatever they
get from each of these transactions.
493
00:25:56,598 --> 00:26:01,798
So they're focusing on this short term,
orderly profit, rent seeking model.
494
00:26:03,568 --> 00:26:06,328
Get people to pay as much as they
can until the bubble bursts and
495
00:26:06,378 --> 00:26:09,718
the company goes down and people
at the top are going to be making
496
00:26:10,098 --> 00:26:12,118
quite a bit of money along the way.
497
00:26:12,478 --> 00:26:13,588
This is not a business that.
498
00:26:14,163 --> 00:26:16,053
The people at top know this
business is not going to be around
499
00:26:16,523 --> 00:26:19,043
much longer That's my hypothesis.
500
00:26:19,463 --> 00:26:22,833
Wow, that's I would call you
cynical, but I don't think you
501
00:26:22,833 --> 00:26:24,593
are I think that's very realistic.
502
00:26:24,643 --> 00:26:27,153
No, it is so plain as day.
503
00:26:27,323 --> 00:26:30,013
They say it themselves between the
lines in those filing They're like
504
00:26:30,283 --> 00:26:34,663
we need to make sure that if we keep
doing keep letting this thing happen
505
00:26:35,208 --> 00:26:37,998
We won't be able to use visa as a card.
506
00:26:38,568 --> 00:26:40,938
Visa won't take our transactions anymore.
507
00:26:40,938 --> 00:26:42,598
So we got to at least be above this line.
508
00:26:42,978 --> 00:26:43,858
Fascinating.
509
00:26:43,918 --> 00:26:44,328
Okay.
510
00:26:44,338 --> 00:26:48,578
So let's talk about the more
holistic thing as we close out.
511
00:26:48,828 --> 00:26:52,638
So we've got, I will
never go on a personally.
512
00:26:52,638 --> 00:26:54,848
I'm just like, I, it's
just, I get the heebies.
513
00:26:54,858 --> 00:26:57,438
He was just even thinking
about going on there.
514
00:26:57,438 --> 00:26:58,878
I'd still have connects.
515
00:26:58,908 --> 00:27:01,678
I still could apply for the
jobs, but I don't trust anything.
516
00:27:01,708 --> 00:27:04,448
So obviously there's two people
that are like, nope, that would.
517
00:27:05,623 --> 00:27:08,183
I consider you a great, I've
read a couple of your articles.
518
00:27:08,183 --> 00:27:09,133
You're a great writer.
519
00:27:09,353 --> 00:27:11,413
I consider myself a professional.
520
00:27:11,753 --> 00:27:12,653
I'm not going on there.
521
00:27:12,653 --> 00:27:15,563
So they're obviously going to lose
people that would consider themselves
522
00:27:15,563 --> 00:27:16,963
professional or are professionals.
523
00:27:17,303 --> 00:27:20,603
What about the next stage of this
or the bigger, more holistic thing?
524
00:27:21,553 --> 00:27:23,413
You talked about the beat cop.
525
00:27:23,483 --> 00:27:25,533
What's the solution to this?
526
00:27:26,363 --> 00:27:33,203
I mean, the solution on the holistic
sense is that we as a society stop
527
00:27:33,203 --> 00:27:37,983
accepting the fight back against
the push to have every industry
528
00:27:38,033 --> 00:27:41,433
uberized and try to fight to retain.
529
00:27:42,038 --> 00:27:42,648
Labor rights.
530
00:27:43,338 --> 00:27:43,758
Yeah.
531
00:27:44,088 --> 00:27:46,328
Do you think that
companies are responsible?
532
00:27:46,388 --> 00:27:48,728
I know somebody else said to me
Oh, I use Upwork all the time.
533
00:27:48,728 --> 00:27:51,558
If I thought to myself wow,
you're getting cheap labor.
534
00:27:51,558 --> 00:27:52,178
Basically.
535
00:27:52,418 --> 00:27:53,868
Is that part of what you're saying?
536
00:27:54,118 --> 00:27:54,388
Yeah.
537
00:27:54,768 --> 00:27:57,618
It's that it's every, all the.
538
00:27:57,628 --> 00:28:02,618
They tout fortune 500 companies using
their site, but what they aren't saying
539
00:28:02,628 --> 00:28:07,038
in those Superbowl ads is that they're
doing it from the Philippines and
540
00:28:07,048 --> 00:28:12,328
they're like, basically doing digital
Colonization in a, for the new era
541
00:28:12,348 --> 00:28:16,198
where they're just like, we can, Hey, we
don't have to have our labor force here.
542
00:28:16,228 --> 00:28:20,748
We're doing sweat, we're doing
sweatshops online, but it's like paying
543
00:28:20,748 --> 00:28:22,398
one 25 an hour in the Philippines.
544
00:28:22,428 --> 00:28:22,818
Cool.
545
00:28:23,078 --> 00:28:23,268
Yeah.
546
00:28:23,268 --> 00:28:24,628
And they can get something from them.
547
00:28:24,628 --> 00:28:28,478
It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's
going to be better than, and they're going
548
00:28:28,478 --> 00:28:30,098
to, and it's more cost effective for them.
549
00:28:30,888 --> 00:28:32,068
I completely agree with you.
550
00:28:32,068 --> 00:28:34,818
Are they, that is a spot
on observation on that.
551
00:28:35,128 --> 00:28:37,648
I guess the last thing I would ask is.
552
00:28:37,658 --> 00:28:41,968
The part of this that even is more complex
is, and you just touched on it, is that
553
00:28:42,278 --> 00:28:48,048
international nature of the internet, that
it, there is no border to this, that you
554
00:28:48,078 --> 00:28:54,018
could be, I don't know who this person
was that set up this phony job and what
555
00:28:54,018 --> 00:28:58,358
their purpose was, but they could easily
be in an Albanian basement somewhere.
556
00:28:58,368 --> 00:28:59,938
They could easily be in India.
557
00:28:59,938 --> 00:29:01,208
They could easily be in the Philippines.
558
00:29:01,218 --> 00:29:03,698
And maybe you can't answer this, I
don't know, but I've been pondering
559
00:29:03,698 --> 00:29:05,008
this a lot as I do this series.
560
00:29:05,418 --> 00:29:06,338
How do we stop that?
561
00:29:06,728 --> 00:29:10,748
What does, I'm talking about the
United States, is there a way, or is
562
00:29:10,748 --> 00:29:12,168
that genie just out of the bottle?
563
00:29:12,618 --> 00:29:14,898
How do we stop the internationality of it?
564
00:29:15,258 --> 00:29:20,968
I'm saying the ability of international
criminals, Or people to take advantage
565
00:29:21,018 --> 00:29:23,188
of people digitally within the internet.
566
00:29:23,258 --> 00:29:26,758
So I don't know what I
know where my scale is.
567
00:29:26,978 --> 00:29:27,968
Yeah he's in Virginia.
568
00:29:28,668 --> 00:29:29,608
Oh, I get it.
569
00:29:29,608 --> 00:29:30,848
I'm not, that's not even what I'm saying.
570
00:29:30,848 --> 00:29:34,058
I'm not saying that Americans aren't
scamming, but I'm saying, let's
571
00:29:34,058 --> 00:29:38,308
just say that we got all these
laws and really made it tougher for
572
00:29:38,308 --> 00:29:39,878
Americans to cheat other Americans.
573
00:29:40,118 --> 00:29:43,048
How do we stop people from other
places from cheating Americans?
574
00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:45,848
I think it comes back to what we were
saying before, where it's ultimately
575
00:29:45,848 --> 00:29:48,928
the platform's responsibility.
576
00:29:49,618 --> 00:29:57,058
To develop robust systems of stopping
spotting, stopping and compensating,
577
00:29:57,678 --> 00:30:02,238
stopping scammers compensating
their victims and preventing similar
578
00:30:02,238 --> 00:30:03,408
ones from happening in the future.
579
00:30:03,448 --> 00:30:07,088
And until that happens, we're just
going to be going in circles here
580
00:30:07,358 --> 00:30:09,448
because it has to come from the top.
581
00:30:09,738 --> 00:30:11,468
It just can't come from
what are we going to do?
582
00:30:11,838 --> 00:30:16,353
We are all individuals, scammers
and victims alike I guess what we
583
00:30:16,353 --> 00:30:20,643
do is we write articles that draw
people's attention to it because I
584
00:30:20,693 --> 00:30:23,743
am deeply appreciative of the fact
that you took the time to write this.
585
00:30:24,073 --> 00:30:28,423
I hope that your career blows
up and that you're not having
586
00:30:28,423 --> 00:30:30,193
to go to these gig work sites.
587
00:30:30,203 --> 00:30:33,793
We didn't even get into the whole
concept of gig work and how I see
588
00:30:33,803 --> 00:30:35,203
that as late stage capitalism.
589
00:30:35,473 --> 00:30:37,053
Because I think gig work is.
590
00:30:37,408 --> 00:30:39,938
That's just another way of
people getting cheap labor.
591
00:30:39,958 --> 00:30:44,938
So that's what the freelancing is, not
necessarily gig work, but like Upwork is
592
00:30:44,978 --> 00:30:46,678
the gig work application of freelancing.
593
00:30:47,103 --> 00:30:48,393
Yeah, absolutely.
594
00:30:48,393 --> 00:30:49,133
And it's frightening.
595
00:30:50,133 --> 00:30:51,433
Thank you, Justin.
596
00:30:51,433 --> 00:30:55,203
Justin Caffier is a writer
for multiple outlets.
597
00:30:55,273 --> 00:30:58,183
Anything you want to press today
while you're on, Justin, tell the
598
00:30:58,183 --> 00:30:59,503
people that they can be looking for.
599
00:31:00,123 --> 00:31:04,893
Oh man, you could, if you want to
follow me on Twitter or Instagram.
600
00:31:05,258 --> 00:31:07,488
It's at Justin Caffier for everything.
601
00:31:08,058 --> 00:31:09,138
Just keep an eye out for me.
602
00:31:09,258 --> 00:31:10,338
I might have some projects to drop soon.
603
00:31:11,198 --> 00:31:11,678
Awesome.
604
00:31:11,848 --> 00:31:13,268
I'll put it in the show notes as well.
605
00:31:13,268 --> 00:31:15,838
So people can click on those,
but thanks so much for taking
606
00:31:15,868 --> 00:31:17,198
the time to meet with us today.
607
00:31:17,208 --> 00:31:18,168
It's all me with us.
608
00:31:18,368 --> 00:31:21,218
It's usually me and another
partner, but meeting with me today.
609
00:31:21,218 --> 00:31:21,898
I appreciate it.
610
00:31:21,938 --> 00:31:23,348
So have a great day, Justin.
611
00:31:23,988 --> 00:31:24,338
You too.
612
00:31:24,338 --> 00:31:24,833
Thanks.
613
00:31:25,533 --> 00:31:30,263
A fun little post log of the show I
recorded with Justin about a month ago.
614
00:31:30,683 --> 00:31:35,943
I had not gone on Upwork once since this
interview and I got an email saying, we're
615
00:31:35,943 --> 00:31:37,373
about ready to close your Upwork account.
616
00:31:37,383 --> 00:31:40,593
I was fine, but I thought that I would
go on there and check anyway, just out
617
00:31:40,593 --> 00:31:42,963
of curiosity to see what was going on.
618
00:31:42,963 --> 00:31:46,353
If there was anybody that was looking
for something, not to get a job, but just
619
00:31:46,403 --> 00:31:47,963
check and see what the deal was with it.
620
00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:51,773
Sure enough, I go on there and I've
got a request for somebody who wants
621
00:31:51,773 --> 00:31:53,763
to interview me and it's a scam.
622
00:31:54,103 --> 00:31:56,633
The only time I've gone on there
in a month and it's a scam.
623
00:31:56,633 --> 00:32:00,163
Now, again, I'm not blaming Upwork
for that, but it is ironic to me that
624
00:32:00,443 --> 00:32:04,823
the two times that I actually contact
somebody or they contact me, it's
625
00:32:04,823 --> 00:32:09,663
clearly a scam, remember to follow,
like, and subscribe if you get a chance,
626
00:32:10,013 --> 00:32:12,853
write us a comment on wherever you get
your podcasts, that would be great.
627
00:32:13,228 --> 00:32:18,288
Next week, we'll be back with a brand
new show with a dynamic crime fighter.
628
00:32:18,288 --> 00:32:20,658
I call her a crime fighter
because that's what she's doing.
629
00:32:20,958 --> 00:32:21,948
Aaron West from shamrock.
630
00:32:22,188 --> 00:32:22,508
org.
631
00:32:22,848 --> 00:32:26,128
Very exciting conversation
around pig butchering.
632
00:32:26,458 --> 00:32:29,438
I know you probably never heard that
term before, but trust me, you will.
633
00:32:29,578 --> 00:32:30,318
So have a great week.
634
00:32:30,348 --> 00:32:31,368
We'll talk to everybody soon.
00:00:54,980 --> 00:00:58,780
Welcome to the Smarticle Podcast and our
series on digital and online scams.
2
00:00:58,870 --> 00:01:01,410
Today, I'm talking with
writer Justin Caffier.
3
00:01:01,730 --> 00:01:05,180
Justin is an East Coast transplant
now living in LA and he has written
4
00:01:05,180 --> 00:01:09,680
for Vice and Complex as well as
many other news and journal sites.
5
00:01:10,070 --> 00:01:13,070
I wanted to talk with Justin today
because Justin was a victim of our very
6
00:01:13,070 --> 00:01:17,660
first focus scam, which are known as gig
work site scams or freelance site scams.
7
00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:21,190
There are many legitimate freelance
sites out there, including Fiverr,
8
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,699
Twine, and Upwork being some
of the most well known sites.
9
00:01:25,325 --> 00:01:28,435
And these are legitimate sites that can
help people find full and part time work.
10
00:01:28,555 --> 00:01:31,905
But just like so many other online
platforms, they have attracted scammers.
11
00:01:32,115 --> 00:01:34,914
Today, we're going to be talking
specifically about scams on
12
00:01:34,914 --> 00:01:36,255
the freelance site Upwork.
13
00:01:36,765 --> 00:01:40,395
A couple of weeks ago, I almost
fell victim to a scam on Upwork.
14
00:01:40,395 --> 00:01:41,464
It was pretty shocking for me.
15
00:01:41,464 --> 00:01:43,854
I could not believe that I
had almost fallen for a scam.
16
00:01:44,405 --> 00:01:46,884
And it got me wondering about
scams in general, how they
17
00:01:46,895 --> 00:01:48,085
worked and who fell for them.
18
00:01:48,475 --> 00:01:52,315
In my research following my own experience
going down the Upwork scam hole, I
19
00:01:52,315 --> 00:01:54,384
stumbled on an amazing article by Justin.
20
00:01:54,785 --> 00:01:58,065
He had written it for the news website
Mashable, and the article does a
21
00:01:58,074 --> 00:02:02,395
masterful job of explaining what Upwork
is and how scammers use the site.
22
00:02:02,645 --> 00:02:05,594
Before we even get started today, I
wanted to read the first few paragraphs
23
00:02:05,594 --> 00:02:08,985
of his article titled, I Got Scammed
By Upwork So You Don't Have To, My 475
24
00:02:08,985 --> 00:02:09,845
Lesson in Gig Economy Exploitation.
25
00:02:09,845 --> 00:02:12,079
I Got Scammed By Upwork So You
Don't Have To, My 475 Lesson
26
00:02:12,079 --> 00:02:13,565
in Gig Economy Exploitation.
27
00:02:14,114 --> 00:02:17,605
Typically, I don't read long excerpts
like this, but it really helps to set
28
00:02:17,605 --> 00:02:22,745
the stage for talking with Justin and
explaining what these scams look like.
29
00:02:23,024 --> 00:02:28,045
From Justin's article in Mashable,
Last November, I was reeling from the
30
00:02:28,045 --> 00:02:31,214
sudden back to back disintegration
of my two most recent employers.
31
00:02:31,690 --> 00:02:35,589
My lingering self respect, along with
a glance at the all time low wages
32
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,920
now being offered by the driving
and delivery apps that once kept me
33
00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:42,409
afloat during the gaps in my freelance
writing career, stopped me from
34
00:02:42,409 --> 00:02:44,469
revisiting those abusive relationships.
35
00:02:44,730 --> 00:02:46,920
But things were getting undeniably grim.
36
00:02:47,180 --> 00:02:49,529
That's when I recalled a
potential life preserver
37
00:02:49,529 --> 00:02:51,310
mentioned by a fellow writer pal.
38
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,320
Upwork, a freelance platform that
wisely rebranded from ElansoDesk
39
00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,615
in 2015, With the subtly fatalistic
slogan, this is how we work now.
40
00:03:02,325 --> 00:03:05,454
Over a ketchup coffee a year
earlier, my buddy told me he'd
41
00:03:05,454 --> 00:03:07,284
found surprise success on Upwork.
42
00:03:07,790 --> 00:03:11,440
He spoke of well paid, fun sounding
gigs who landed ghostwriting wedding
43
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,560
speeches and wine group mom chat zingers.
44
00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:18,179
A glance his profile page indicated
that having worked a mere 85 hours,
45
00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:23,639
his lifetime earnings on the platform
were already listed at 10, 000 That
46
00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:25,699
plus symbol was downright decadent.
47
00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:29,440
My friend assured me that once I
had a few initial Upwork jobs and
48
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,710
their subsequent reviews under
my belt to help establish my.
49
00:03:33,010 --> 00:03:38,060
Quote job success score unquote the metric
essential for being shown to potential
50
00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:42,070
employers by the site's algorithm
I too could join him in the digital
51
00:03:42,109 --> 00:03:45,670
promised land Justin that is awesome.
52
00:03:45,679 --> 00:03:48,309
This article was found in mashable.
53
00:03:48,709 --> 00:03:53,940
I Drilled down a rabbit hole after I
got scammed on up working up the basic
54
00:03:53,980 --> 00:03:57,920
backstory for me was I went on to up
work A friend had told me about it.
55
00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,000
I thought, Oh, this could be cool.
56
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,360
I can meet other podcasters.
57
00:04:00,380 --> 00:04:01,440
It's freelance work.
58
00:04:01,630 --> 00:04:02,820
I was like, Oh, this could be cool.
59
00:04:02,820 --> 00:04:07,089
I went on within one week, the very first
job that ever reached out to me turned
60
00:04:07,089 --> 00:04:09,860
out to be an amazingly complex scam.
61
00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:11,019
Now I didn't lose any money.
62
00:04:11,665 --> 00:04:13,724
But I did lose the time
of dealing with it.
63
00:04:13,765 --> 00:04:17,815
I had to do this hour interview,
which was on a document.
64
00:04:17,865 --> 00:04:22,304
And it was just, I learned so many things
from this, but I saw your article and
65
00:04:22,304 --> 00:04:24,955
I thought, man, what an amazing story.
66
00:04:25,235 --> 00:04:27,895
The whole purpose of this series
is to wake people up to the
67
00:04:27,895 --> 00:04:28,985
fact this stuff is going on.
68
00:04:28,985 --> 00:04:32,555
So I'd love it if you tell us a little
bit about this, you looking for work,
69
00:04:32,715 --> 00:04:34,285
you see this thing sounds great.
70
00:04:34,325 --> 00:04:36,694
This guy's making money doing this.
71
00:04:36,705 --> 00:04:37,515
He's a writer.
72
00:04:37,905 --> 00:04:39,035
It's a freelance gig.
73
00:04:39,044 --> 00:04:40,255
So what happens to you?
74
00:04:40,805 --> 00:04:44,298
Like, a lot of writers out there,
you always have to be looking
75
00:04:44,318 --> 00:04:48,598
for the next meal ticket and,
casting your net far and wide.
76
00:04:48,598 --> 00:04:51,618
And Upwork was just one more Avenue.
77
00:04:52,883 --> 00:04:53,693
to explore.
78
00:04:53,873 --> 00:04:54,133
Right.
79
00:04:54,133 --> 00:04:55,263
It was suggested to me.
80
00:04:55,473 --> 00:05:02,273
I was, sniffing around the site, came
across this one client who had provide
81
00:05:02,403 --> 00:05:04,753
would a pretty consistent record.
82
00:05:04,763 --> 00:05:07,423
He'd been on the platform for a while.
83
00:05:07,853 --> 00:05:12,823
As the article points out, I
couldn't see his reviews at the time.
84
00:05:13,503 --> 00:05:14,263
Why was that?
85
00:05:14,803 --> 00:05:19,323
They, there was just, there just happened
to be I'm not gonna go conspiracy mode
86
00:05:19,323 --> 00:05:22,683
or anything like that, but there happened
to be some site maintenance going on
87
00:05:22,683 --> 00:05:28,203
where they didn't have those up at
the time of my, they were like, this
88
00:05:28,203 --> 00:05:30,493
is a, how this all shakes out, had I.
89
00:05:30,578 --> 00:05:31,618
I've seen those.
90
00:05:31,838 --> 00:05:33,828
Some of the comments are
like, this guy is a scammer.
91
00:05:33,828 --> 00:05:34,468
He won't pay you.
92
00:05:35,578 --> 00:05:38,608
So can you explain to us what it
means when you go onto the site?
93
00:05:38,948 --> 00:05:39,648
What does it look like?
94
00:05:39,658 --> 00:05:40,568
What are you looking at?
95
00:05:40,568 --> 00:05:42,428
Everybody that's on there is a freelancer.
96
00:05:42,628 --> 00:05:43,488
What are you looking at?
97
00:05:43,488 --> 00:05:45,308
What did, what's, what
are you looking for?
98
00:05:45,308 --> 00:05:45,758
I guess.
99
00:05:45,938 --> 00:05:50,698
Think of it as like a sort of a market
or bizarre, but you're scrolling
100
00:05:50,698 --> 00:05:57,018
through the page and each of the
stalls is a merchant or a client.
101
00:05:57,653 --> 00:06:04,643
Offering you a tantalizing Job
prospect, whether it's in, in my case
102
00:06:04,723 --> 00:06:09,383
writers, there's stuff like write
my short fiction story for me, write
103
00:06:09,383 --> 00:06:13,503
my son's graduation speech,
like that kind of stuff.
104
00:06:13,603 --> 00:06:18,823
But then there's also coding,
there's a graphic design, any of the
105
00:06:18,853 --> 00:06:23,633
white collar jobs that you can do
remote are now available freelance
106
00:06:23,693 --> 00:06:26,363
on these kind of platforms and.
107
00:06:27,183 --> 00:06:32,853
What you're seeing is a small
description of the work that you'd
108
00:06:32,853 --> 00:06:35,363
be doing, as well as the pay.
109
00:06:36,153 --> 00:06:40,503
And on Upwork, to apply to this,
which, on Craigslist, you can go on
110
00:06:40,503 --> 00:06:42,583
to click any ad or apply or whatever.
111
00:06:43,053 --> 00:06:47,893
But on Upwork, you have to spend a
little bit of the proprietary currency
112
00:06:48,173 --> 00:06:51,103
on the platform to even apply to a job.
113
00:06:51,513 --> 00:06:56,943
That's to keep ostensibly people from
just applying to every single thing.
114
00:06:57,403 --> 00:07:03,213
Watering down the entire purpose of
it, but it's become a lucrative money
115
00:07:03,213 --> 00:07:05,353
making venture for Upwork itself.
116
00:07:05,933 --> 00:07:09,423
So you buy these things called connects,
you pay a little bit of extra money.
117
00:07:09,433 --> 00:07:11,743
It's not super, it's not, 15 or whatever.
118
00:07:11,743 --> 00:07:12,993
I don't even know what it is.
119
00:07:13,223 --> 00:07:16,253
It's a dollar per fence
along, but it's like.
120
00:07:16,818 --> 00:07:18,368
A dollar for ten maybe.
121
00:07:18,418 --> 00:07:19,888
I could be getting that wrong.
122
00:07:20,988 --> 00:07:25,358
And you basically, you bid on
a job using these connects so
123
00:07:25,358 --> 00:07:27,198
that you can apply for a job.
124
00:07:27,428 --> 00:07:30,628
That's ostensibly what's
going on in this world.
125
00:07:30,628 --> 00:07:33,098
So you're saying, I like, Oh,
this sounds like a great job.
126
00:07:33,408 --> 00:07:37,748
I'm going to spend X amount of connects
that I have in my bank account, my Upwork
127
00:07:37,798 --> 00:07:39,068
account, whatever you want to call it.
128
00:07:39,278 --> 00:07:41,018
And then that allows you
to apply for the job.
129
00:07:41,268 --> 00:07:45,028
So you see this guy on there that
sounds interesting and what happens?
130
00:07:45,188 --> 00:07:45,438
Yeah.
131
00:07:45,718 --> 00:07:51,248
He's asking for someone to
write a sort of like narrative
132
00:07:51,968 --> 00:07:53,568
description of an individual.
133
00:07:53,718 --> 00:07:56,498
He's being a little cagey about
it, but it's like a fluff piece.
134
00:07:56,498 --> 00:07:58,368
He's like, I'll provide
all the information.
135
00:08:00,163 --> 00:08:01,723
Just turn this into a narrative.
136
00:08:02,313 --> 00:08:05,273
I assumed it was going to be for
something like a law firm and it
137
00:08:05,313 --> 00:08:06,693
ended up being something like that.
138
00:08:08,273 --> 00:08:13,523
And it's just a, someone wants to showboat
themselves a little bit, make themselves
139
00:08:13,523 --> 00:08:16,133
look good to their prospective clients.
140
00:08:17,233 --> 00:08:20,783
And I've done that kind of work
before and everything was provided,
141
00:08:20,783 --> 00:08:24,753
research is the hardest part of
that sort of writing at times.
142
00:08:25,333 --> 00:08:27,213
So that was the kind of work
that would be presented.
143
00:08:27,213 --> 00:08:27,263
Okay.
144
00:08:27,943 --> 00:08:34,143
And I talked with the guy and he was
very communicative, he was a real person.
145
00:08:34,513 --> 00:08:37,553
He was pretty quick to reply to things.
146
00:08:38,453 --> 00:08:40,613
So when you say you talked to
him, did you talk to him through,
147
00:08:40,843 --> 00:08:43,423
direct message or you didn't talk
to him on the phone or anything?
148
00:08:43,563 --> 00:08:46,583
Just through direct, see this is,
just through direct message on
149
00:08:46,593 --> 00:08:51,253
Upwork, they are very, they caution
you against doing any sort of
150
00:08:51,333 --> 00:08:53,043
interaction outside of the platform.
151
00:08:54,523 --> 00:09:01,733
This is under the guise of It all being
for safety reasons, which yes, that is
152
00:09:01,803 --> 00:09:06,743
a protective measure, but it's also to
make sure that if you go off platform
153
00:09:06,743 --> 00:09:10,473
and you start striking deals without
us involved, we're not getting our cut.
154
00:09:11,083 --> 00:09:11,793
That's a big part of it.
155
00:09:12,103 --> 00:09:16,793
We're doing this all within the
chat on the chat box on Upwork.
156
00:09:17,173 --> 00:09:17,553
Okay.
157
00:09:17,593 --> 00:09:20,043
So he's DMing you, you're
going back and forth.
158
00:09:20,043 --> 00:09:21,433
And then where does it go from there?
159
00:09:21,893 --> 00:09:22,223
He.
160
00:09:22,918 --> 00:09:26,378
Suggests that, Hey, like he
asked for some sample writing.
161
00:09:26,528 --> 00:09:29,168
I sent some stuff over and
he goes, it's pretty good.
162
00:09:29,648 --> 00:09:32,088
Would you be interested in,
what would your rate be?
163
00:09:32,478 --> 00:09:34,618
If I, when did you do this
multiple times a week?
164
00:09:35,138 --> 00:09:37,938
I said, I was like, Oh, wow
this could be consistent work.
165
00:09:37,958 --> 00:09:38,258
Great.
166
00:09:38,838 --> 00:09:44,018
I said I would have to do a test run to
just, get a feel for what it is actually.
167
00:09:44,488 --> 00:09:49,548
And I can give you my rate after
that, but it could be, commensurate
168
00:09:49,598 --> 00:09:51,048
with what we're talking about here.
169
00:09:52,138 --> 00:09:53,938
So he says okay how about this?
170
00:09:53,998 --> 00:09:58,088
I'm going to put in a, I'm going
to misquote my own story right
171
00:09:58,138 --> 00:10:02,538
now, but he essentially says, I'm
going to put in a, like a small
172
00:10:02,538 --> 00:10:04,398
deposit in the escrow account.
173
00:10:04,468 --> 00:10:06,738
That is the bank for our operations.
174
00:10:07,668 --> 00:10:09,818
And you work on this
and tell me the hours.
175
00:10:11,013 --> 00:10:13,243
And because we don't know
how long it's going to take.
176
00:10:14,033 --> 00:10:14,913
And I said, yeah, okay.
177
00:10:14,913 --> 00:10:15,363
That makes sense.
178
00:10:15,413 --> 00:10:18,623
This is how writing has worked for me.
179
00:10:18,853 --> 00:10:22,343
This is how you invoice for
hours after the fact this is just
180
00:10:22,403 --> 00:10:23,173
the water I've been swimming.
181
00:10:25,343 --> 00:10:27,113
I even double checked though.
182
00:10:27,293 --> 00:10:31,233
I say, Hey, just to make sure I want to
make clear, I'm going to do this work
183
00:10:31,603 --> 00:10:36,065
and I'm going to tell you the amount of
hours and then you're going to pay me for
184
00:10:36,065 --> 00:10:40,043
those hours at the already agreed upon
rate, not this to be determined bulk rate.
185
00:10:41,093 --> 00:10:42,093
He's like, yep, that's correct.
186
00:10:42,803 --> 00:10:46,213
So I ran it by my lawyers, I
was like, this is a contract.
187
00:10:46,333 --> 00:10:46,843
This is real.
188
00:10:47,763 --> 00:10:48,923
And I did the work.
189
00:10:49,143 --> 00:10:50,693
He gave note, gave edits.
190
00:10:50,703 --> 00:10:51,813
I did the edits.
191
00:10:51,923 --> 00:10:53,853
And then he ghosted me disappeared.
192
00:10:53,993 --> 00:10:58,083
I was like, Oh, and the small
amount he'd put in an escrow was 5.
193
00:10:58,223 --> 00:10:58,643
Okay.
194
00:10:58,893 --> 00:11:02,593
And that was all that was released to me.
195
00:11:03,868 --> 00:11:03,928
Hmm.
196
00:11:04,128 --> 00:11:08,318
So, this is the part that gets
me that's a little bit unclear.
197
00:11:09,418 --> 00:11:11,698
Not in your case, but in just with Upwork.
198
00:11:12,818 --> 00:11:15,743
How does he get away with ghosting you?
199
00:11:15,743 --> 00:11:17,343
There's a contract in place.
200
00:11:17,673 --> 00:11:19,233
You talk about that in your article.
201
00:11:19,463 --> 00:11:21,423
He said, I'm going to pay you this.
202
00:11:21,813 --> 00:11:25,123
How is it that no, where, what
was your req, I know because I
203
00:11:25,123 --> 00:11:29,043
read the article, but tell us what
happens when that happens to you.
204
00:11:29,043 --> 00:11:30,053
What do you do about it?
205
00:11:30,563 --> 00:11:36,893
He's operating under the presumption
that if I do it for this amount of
206
00:11:37,073 --> 00:11:42,913
money, nobody's going to be bothered
to go through with like small
207
00:11:42,953 --> 00:11:45,303
claims court to fight me about it.
208
00:11:45,483 --> 00:11:50,123
And so I can just keep doing this ad
infinitum, getting whatever I need with
209
00:11:50,183 --> 00:11:53,613
an endless stream of suckers until.
210
00:11:54,073 --> 00:11:56,943
I'm kicked off the platform,
or I run out of suckers.
211
00:11:58,143 --> 00:12:00,243
Yeah, I guess this is the
tough part for me, because
212
00:12:00,243 --> 00:12:01,773
this is where the scam lies in.
213
00:12:02,063 --> 00:12:05,123
You could simply say, hey, this is
one guy that's doing this, and he's
214
00:12:05,153 --> 00:12:06,623
figured out how to game the system.
215
00:12:07,273 --> 00:12:11,193
But at some point, someone
somewhere within Upwork has
216
00:12:11,193 --> 00:12:12,373
to know this is going on.
217
00:12:12,643 --> 00:12:14,473
Now I'm not accusing anybody of anything.
218
00:12:14,483 --> 00:12:17,723
I'm just simply saying that if,
did you report this to Upwork?
219
00:12:18,193 --> 00:12:19,343
You don't have to accuse them anything.
220
00:12:19,413 --> 00:12:20,553
I'll accuse them for you.
221
00:12:20,713 --> 00:12:21,963
They accuse themselves.
222
00:12:22,093 --> 00:12:26,873
They, in their SEC filings, they
acknowledge, they're quite aware of
223
00:12:26,873 --> 00:12:32,593
this problem and they acknowledge
the risks that these scammers
224
00:12:33,103 --> 00:12:34,663
place on the business itself.
225
00:12:36,598 --> 00:12:40,098
When, what happened to me, I went
through the process, alerting people
226
00:12:41,688 --> 00:12:44,938
next, support and I wasn't even,
I wasn't, I was never saying, Hey,
227
00:12:45,448 --> 00:12:46,818
pay what this guy promised me.
228
00:12:47,078 --> 00:12:47,458
I'm set.
229
00:12:47,518 --> 00:12:49,318
I was like, Hey, you have a skit.
230
00:12:49,378 --> 00:12:50,588
I was, being a little.
231
00:12:50,663 --> 00:12:56,173
I was like, Hey, you have a bad guy,
you should do something about it and
232
00:12:56,173 --> 00:12:56,983
they never did something about it.
233
00:12:57,003 --> 00:12:58,393
And he keeps doing it, correct?
234
00:12:59,383 --> 00:13:04,803
I haven't looked lately, but as we were
getting ready to print the, his account
235
00:13:04,953 --> 00:13:12,063
we kept running it by Upwork their PR
team and they flagged him in some way.
236
00:13:12,083 --> 00:13:16,523
He was no longer able to communicate with
me, but this was like after I. So he may
237
00:13:16,523 --> 00:13:20,223
have disappeared, but he could have come
back as somebody else ultimately, right?
238
00:13:20,223 --> 00:13:20,293
Yeah.
239
00:13:20,293 --> 00:13:20,308
Okay.
240
00:13:23,088 --> 00:13:27,958
Yeah, but the bigger issue is that
while I was pointing out pretty damning
241
00:13:27,958 --> 00:13:30,988
evidence of him saying yes I'm going
to give you this and not do this, you
242
00:13:30,988 --> 00:13:38,028
know I may have run afoul of the proper
etiquette from the policy SOP for doing
243
00:13:38,348 --> 00:13:45,438
a correct upwork task But I also was
showing you know teacher the proof of this
244
00:13:45,438 --> 00:13:51,913
guy scanning right they did not choose
to take any action against him Okay.
245
00:13:51,913 --> 00:13:54,213
And we don't know if they've
taken any action now.
246
00:13:54,693 --> 00:13:58,153
And multiple people before me had
raised similar complaints to Upwork.
247
00:13:58,643 --> 00:14:03,563
I do have that in the article
itself and their comments, I presume
248
00:14:03,573 --> 00:14:04,353
they didn't just leave a comment.
249
00:14:04,533 --> 00:14:08,143
I presume they also contacted
a support team at Upwork.
250
00:14:10,103 --> 00:14:14,113
I don't know if he's been kicked off or
they just prevented him from interacting
251
00:14:14,283 --> 00:14:20,103
with me because frankly, This is the
other part of my hypothesis is scammers
252
00:14:20,103 --> 00:14:23,403
like him benefit Upwork in some ways.
253
00:14:24,393 --> 00:14:31,893
They dangle such a tantalizing job out
there that it compels novice unfamiliar
254
00:14:31,893 --> 00:14:34,723
users spend those, what are they called?
255
00:14:34,723 --> 00:14:35,123
The Upwork?
256
00:14:35,123 --> 00:14:35,893
The Connects.
257
00:14:36,063 --> 00:14:36,393
Yeah.
258
00:14:36,753 --> 00:14:39,423
See I've already purged so
much of this from my brain.
259
00:14:39,493 --> 00:14:43,453
I only know this because it is so recent
for myself., you mentioned this in
260
00:14:43,453 --> 00:14:46,753
the article and I, it clicked with me.
261
00:14:46,753 --> 00:14:48,683
I was like, Oh, okay.
262
00:14:48,953 --> 00:14:53,173
So for me, in my case, what happened
was I saw this job that looked great.
263
00:14:53,423 --> 00:14:56,053
It was like the dream,
perfect audio editor.
264
00:14:56,053 --> 00:14:57,073
We want you to do this.
265
00:14:57,458 --> 00:14:59,958
I applied to it again.
266
00:14:59,968 --> 00:15:02,528
I was a novice, just like a lot
of people that are going on there.
267
00:15:02,528 --> 00:15:03,278
I'm like, Oh, okay.
268
00:15:03,278 --> 00:15:04,838
You apply here, give me my connects.
269
00:15:05,248 --> 00:15:06,618
And then I get this response.
270
00:15:06,828 --> 00:15:08,918
Hey, we really, we'd
like to talk to you now.
271
00:15:08,938 --> 00:15:12,218
Again, this is all done over DM.
There's no actual talking to anybody.
272
00:15:12,628 --> 00:15:15,733
And they gave me a. They said,
we want to interview you.
273
00:15:15,763 --> 00:15:17,963
It's going to be in a form.
274
00:15:18,183 --> 00:15:20,193
So immediately I'm like this is weird.
275
00:15:20,243 --> 00:15:21,383
You don't want to talk to me.
276
00:15:21,703 --> 00:15:22,593
And they started talking.
277
00:15:22,713 --> 00:15:26,203
So they give me this long
Google form that in retrospect
278
00:15:26,223 --> 00:15:28,113
was most likely created by AI.
279
00:15:28,123 --> 00:15:29,843
And the reason I say that is because.
280
00:15:30,253 --> 00:15:35,143
They, it was too perfect that only an
audio editor, only somebody that had
281
00:15:35,143 --> 00:15:38,873
edited podcasts or worked in that space
would know to ask these questions.
282
00:15:38,913 --> 00:15:40,613
They were just way too specific.
283
00:15:40,613 --> 00:15:42,793
So I'm like, wow, I'm crushing this thing.
284
00:15:42,803 --> 00:15:46,113
I know, it's like somebody says
something about your career
285
00:15:46,113 --> 00:15:47,093
and you're like, yes, I know.
286
00:15:47,493 --> 00:15:50,103
So I take this, it was like
an hour to fill it out.
287
00:15:50,923 --> 00:15:54,463
And then I went out and met a friend
out in, I live in Nashville, North
288
00:15:54,463 --> 00:15:57,293
Carolina, and I went out to a bar
and I get this immediate upwork.
289
00:15:57,578 --> 00:16:00,178
Posts like, Hey, we really
would like to offer you the job.
290
00:16:00,888 --> 00:16:02,108
They're offering me this job.
291
00:16:02,108 --> 00:16:06,248
And it's basically 70 an hour
to a hundred dollars an hour.
292
00:16:06,248 --> 00:16:08,008
They're going to start me
at this and then move me up.
293
00:16:08,218 --> 00:16:11,108
And it's, I'm like, Whoa,
this is 150, 000 a year.
294
00:16:11,108 --> 00:16:13,118
This is like a legitimate job.
295
00:16:13,118 --> 00:16:15,478
And I'm thinking to myself this
is the weirdest legitimate job.
296
00:16:15,748 --> 00:16:17,238
And immediately I had this just.
297
00:16:17,818 --> 00:16:18,658
Weird feeling.
298
00:16:19,308 --> 00:16:22,588
And the reason I had the weird feeling
is because I had gone off of the site.
299
00:16:22,598 --> 00:16:25,668
They'd given me a, an email address.
300
00:16:25,718 --> 00:16:28,808
Now I'd looked up the company they
were, and it was a legitimate company.
301
00:16:29,088 --> 00:16:30,018
Found it on LinkedIn.
302
00:16:30,018 --> 00:16:30,978
Everything seemed right.
303
00:16:31,178 --> 00:16:33,208
And they'd give me an
email, HR email address.
304
00:16:33,238 --> 00:16:34,188
I emailed them.
305
00:16:34,718 --> 00:16:37,928
And I remember in reading the Upwork
things, don't go off the site.
306
00:16:37,958 --> 00:16:41,308
And I'm like, okay, maybe this is
just how you do it in this case.
307
00:16:41,838 --> 00:16:43,808
I get this long email back.
308
00:16:43,838 --> 00:16:45,928
We're going to buy you all
this really high end equipment.
309
00:16:45,978 --> 00:16:50,858
They talked soup, like very specific
equipment that only podcasters would know.
310
00:16:50,868 --> 00:16:53,268
I was like, Oh, you're going
to offer me this thing.
311
00:16:53,278 --> 00:16:55,168
We don't want you to use
any of your own equipment.
312
00:16:55,398 --> 00:16:57,678
And I immediately started thinking
to myself, there's something wrong.
313
00:16:57,688 --> 00:17:00,628
And I. Talked to my wife, who's
very good at this kind of stuff.
314
00:17:00,858 --> 00:17:04,088
And she started doing a rich research
and she goes, I think this is a scam.
315
00:17:04,408 --> 00:17:08,028
She sent me a YouTube of
somebody, a video of somebody
316
00:17:08,028 --> 00:17:09,438
talking about Upwork scams.
317
00:17:09,758 --> 00:17:12,828
That was the first indication
I had that, Oh, wait a second.
318
00:17:12,838 --> 00:17:14,098
This happens all the time.
319
00:17:14,488 --> 00:17:16,918
And so I reached out to Upwork.
320
00:17:17,628 --> 00:17:19,938
I let them, Oh no, before
that, I take it back.
321
00:17:20,368 --> 00:17:23,158
I actually reached out to the
guy that was the principal in the
322
00:17:23,158 --> 00:17:24,488
company they were representing.
323
00:17:24,998 --> 00:17:27,128
On LinkedIn, I see my
wife's like, don't do that.
324
00:17:27,128 --> 00:17:27,958
It might be the real guy.
325
00:17:28,048 --> 00:17:30,428
And I'm like, I don't know, but
this seems too good to be true.
326
00:17:30,428 --> 00:17:32,448
And if it seems too good
to be true, it probably is.
327
00:17:32,918 --> 00:17:33,408
I emailed him.
328
00:17:33,408 --> 00:17:34,538
He goes immediately.
329
00:17:34,538 --> 00:17:35,328
He responds back.
330
00:17:35,338 --> 00:17:36,588
He's like, nope, that's a scam.
331
00:17:36,588 --> 00:17:39,448
They're using my company name
to, report that to Upwork.
332
00:17:39,898 --> 00:17:43,508
So I went back, reported to
Upwork, but here's the crazy part.
333
00:17:43,508 --> 00:17:44,048
And this sort of.
334
00:17:44,628 --> 00:17:46,728
Now, again, do I have any proof of this?
335
00:17:46,818 --> 00:17:47,608
Absolutely not.
336
00:17:47,628 --> 00:17:48,098
Don't know.
337
00:17:48,108 --> 00:17:51,038
It could be the algorithm could be
the amount of staff or whatever,
338
00:17:51,038 --> 00:17:54,998
but I reported this and it took
Upwork two days to take this down.
339
00:17:55,408 --> 00:17:58,368
That people were still applying
for this job two or three days
340
00:17:58,368 --> 00:18:02,068
later, which means every time
somebody applies, Upwork gets paid.
341
00:18:02,268 --> 00:18:06,568
So I don't know if that's just the part of
the process, but that was my experience.
342
00:18:06,588 --> 00:18:10,488
That, and I had this and I want
to ask, what was your feeling
343
00:18:10,848 --> 00:18:14,848
Your personal feeling when you
realized you'd been scammed?
344
00:18:15,428 --> 00:18:16,348
Like, how did you feel?
345
00:18:16,398 --> 00:18:16,968
Literally?
346
00:18:18,328 --> 00:18:20,218
I felt mostly pissed.
347
00:18:21,098 --> 00:18:21,308
Sorry.
348
00:18:21,308 --> 00:18:22,358
I don't know if I can say that.
349
00:18:22,598 --> 00:18:22,838
Say that.
350
00:18:22,838 --> 00:18:23,528
Yeah, you can say that.
351
00:18:23,778 --> 00:18:23,978
Yeah.
352
00:18:23,978 --> 00:18:24,728
Hey, we're on a podcast.
353
00:18:24,798 --> 00:18:25,558
We can say whatever we want.
354
00:18:25,578 --> 00:18:27,748
Pissed at the guy, but then.
355
00:18:28,213 --> 00:18:29,743
Pissing myself for of course.
356
00:18:29,793 --> 00:18:34,213
You are smarter than this kind of feeling
like you been around the block on the
357
00:18:34,213 --> 00:18:40,983
internet enough to, I should have seen
this coming, but it also really spite is
358
00:18:40,983 --> 00:18:47,573
such a huge motivator for me and that's
what drove me to dig so much deeper.
359
00:18:48,693 --> 00:18:53,243
Upwork and this guy than any
of his other victims would have
360
00:18:54,273 --> 00:18:56,283
I mean, I know where he lives.
361
00:18:56,283 --> 00:18:57,153
I know his family.
362
00:18:57,153 --> 00:18:58,583
I have like, really?
363
00:18:59,013 --> 00:19:02,703
Yeah, I have I and I didn't even do
any Oh, so it's a real person that
364
00:19:02,713 --> 00:19:05,403
you know, it's a real it's a real guy.
365
00:19:05,443 --> 00:19:09,563
I've contacted him some other ways
just to be like, Hey, man I would
366
00:19:09,573 --> 00:19:12,273
genuinely love to talk to you because
I'm not even mad at you anymore.
367
00:19:12,273 --> 00:19:14,943
It's, you are a fascinating character.
368
00:19:14,963 --> 00:19:21,633
He is someone who Is created an
entire, he is a perennial scammer.
369
00:19:21,733 --> 00:19:22,343
Really?
370
00:19:22,923 --> 00:19:29,623
He is one for the hall of fame because
he has been doing it within the online
371
00:19:29,633 --> 00:19:36,753
ecosystem for years going so far as
to create his LinkedIn page is a bunch
372
00:19:36,753 --> 00:19:38,223
of companies that he's worked for.
373
00:19:38,293 --> 00:19:44,183
And they're all fake companies that he
created and he's created a fake podcast.
374
00:19:44,983 --> 00:19:50,033
That has an AI British voice like
interviewing him to give himself clout
375
00:19:50,433 --> 00:19:57,028
he paid for a forbes article I can't
i'm alleging that he paid but you
376
00:19:57,028 --> 00:20:03,073
know allegedly but yeah, he's But he's
exploiting this very credulous like
377
00:20:03,433 --> 00:20:07,513
LinkedIn brain ecosystem in the business
space out there that are just like, Oh,
378
00:20:07,513 --> 00:20:12,303
everyone's like doing big things and we're
all grind setting our way to the top.
379
00:20:12,993 --> 00:20:15,893
And he's like, yeah, these
people will buy this up.
380
00:20:15,983 --> 00:20:21,983
And it got him to the point where
he was able to buy the domain or
381
00:20:21,983 --> 00:20:22,683
I'm starting up by the domain.
382
00:20:23,183 --> 00:20:23,723
But he.
383
00:20:23,723 --> 00:20:23,803
Yeah.
384
00:20:24,093 --> 00:20:26,703
Was given stewardship of the domain wine.
385
00:20:27,033 --> 00:20:33,173
com by this woman who was in her she
was like a woman in her sixties or
386
00:20:33,173 --> 00:20:37,533
seventies who had bought the domain in
the nineties and was just sitting on
387
00:20:37,533 --> 00:20:38,963
this as like, this is my retirement.
388
00:20:39,523 --> 00:20:45,223
And she hired this consulting firm
by my scammer to fatten it up,
389
00:20:45,253 --> 00:20:46,513
fatten up the cow for slaughter.
390
00:20:47,133 --> 00:20:49,953
And he didn't do much with it.
391
00:20:50,013 --> 00:20:52,273
And then when they were pecking around
Hey, are you doing something with this?
392
00:20:52,883 --> 00:20:56,853
He just started putting blog
posts to it, including interviews
393
00:20:56,853 --> 00:20:57,973
with porn stars he liked.
394
00:20:58,993 --> 00:21:03,033
He just likes doing writing, or
getting other people to do writing,
395
00:21:03,123 --> 00:21:04,993
and putting it up on places.
396
00:21:05,143 --> 00:21:06,313
All of his stuff is filled with blogs.
397
00:21:07,983 --> 00:21:08,813
That's the recurring theme.
398
00:21:09,478 --> 00:21:11,248
But how does he make his money from this?
399
00:21:11,488 --> 00:21:17,098
I don't know but he I mean he got a sale
of this like the contract for this wine.
400
00:21:17,288 --> 00:21:20,088
com thing And he ended up
being in court over it.
401
00:21:20,168 --> 00:21:25,168
I found all this in like court documents
that was like a multi million dollar sale
402
00:21:25,198 --> 00:21:31,538
and it's lost somewhere This woman got in
a bigger way than any of us I don't know
403
00:21:31,538 --> 00:21:38,168
the restitution agreement or anything,
but this guy is just Always scamming even
404
00:21:38,168 --> 00:21:43,803
to the point where These Twitter posts
are like the outside of Nobu in Malibu.
405
00:21:44,633 --> 00:21:46,723
Where it's like him pretending
to have just eaten there.
406
00:21:47,963 --> 00:21:48,743
Holy cow.
407
00:21:48,913 --> 00:21:52,243
So have you ever thought about doxing
is not the right word, but have
408
00:21:52,243 --> 00:21:54,103
you ever thought about outing him?
409
00:21:54,153 --> 00:21:56,153
Pretty sure I named him
directly in the article.
410
00:21:56,943 --> 00:21:57,783
Use his last name.
411
00:21:58,243 --> 00:22:01,303
I can't remember if you did or not,
but that's fascinating because it
412
00:22:01,303 --> 00:22:03,133
will go in my show notes for sure.
413
00:22:03,403 --> 00:22:08,053
It's part of the reason why we decided
to do this series on scams is because I
414
00:22:08,053 --> 00:22:11,803
think a lot of people think of grifters
and, it's like the old flim flam man who
415
00:22:11,803 --> 00:22:15,233
does the three card money and you're like,
Oh, that's never going to happen to me.
416
00:22:15,233 --> 00:22:16,123
I'm not going to do that.
417
00:22:16,583 --> 00:22:17,593
I consider myself.
418
00:22:18,163 --> 00:22:19,913
I'm a very suspicious guy.
419
00:22:20,013 --> 00:22:23,093
A lot of times, just like you said,
I've been down the internet rabbit hole.
420
00:22:23,143 --> 00:22:25,763
I know that a lot of this
stuff happens, but these people
421
00:22:25,763 --> 00:22:27,423
are so good at what they do.
422
00:22:28,563 --> 00:22:32,913
And they're so good at just
giving you enough to pull you in.
423
00:22:33,153 --> 00:22:34,753
And Upwork is a perfect example.
424
00:22:35,033 --> 00:22:38,063
You take people that are, and you
write it in there, you said, things
425
00:22:38,063 --> 00:22:42,123
were getting desperate, boy the
quickest mark is a desperate mark.
426
00:22:42,163 --> 00:22:45,163
And I think that had I been,
I was thinking about it.
427
00:22:45,163 --> 00:22:49,503
Had I been desperate for work, I
might've gone down this rabbit hole.
428
00:22:49,753 --> 00:22:51,513
I don't know where they
were going to take me.
429
00:22:51,808 --> 00:22:54,358
Cause I've still been like, how are
they going to make money off of this?
430
00:22:54,788 --> 00:22:57,568
I'm assuming that what they were
to do is going to send me, have me
431
00:22:57,578 --> 00:23:01,798
send a check or whatever, you would
have been reimbursed for the audio
432
00:23:02,008 --> 00:23:03,168
equipment or something like that.
433
00:23:03,708 --> 00:23:06,758
They would have said you buy it in
that exactly or send you the money or
434
00:23:06,758 --> 00:23:07,968
however way they were going to do it.
435
00:23:08,158 --> 00:23:08,398
Yeah.
436
00:23:08,418 --> 00:23:10,158
And so I feel very fortunate.
437
00:23:10,168 --> 00:23:14,488
Your article is I lost, I don't
know, 527 so you don't have to,
438
00:23:14,828 --> 00:23:15,958
which I thought was brilliant.
439
00:23:16,218 --> 00:23:19,888
I love the title of the article and
that's the purpose, the point of this.
440
00:23:19,888 --> 00:23:23,188
So let's talk in the last part
of this, I want to talk about the
441
00:23:23,188 --> 00:23:24,888
culpability of these companies.
442
00:23:24,888 --> 00:23:25,008
Thanks.
443
00:23:25,323 --> 00:23:27,573
Like Upwork YouTube, LinkedIn.
444
00:23:27,583 --> 00:23:30,313
We're going to be doing a show
on LinkedIn and LinkedIn scams.
445
00:23:31,423 --> 00:23:34,473
Do these companies have a
responsibility to you and me?
446
00:23:35,313 --> 00:23:37,563
And if they do, what should
they be doing about this?
447
00:23:37,643 --> 00:23:39,393
Because these grifters aren't going away.
448
00:23:39,553 --> 00:23:42,253
This guy's in full, you just
said, you just named him.
449
00:23:42,793 --> 00:23:44,523
So it's not like they
couldn't find this out.
450
00:23:44,883 --> 00:23:45,143
Yeah.
451
00:23:45,143 --> 00:23:50,293
I think they've created essentially
like a digital marketplace and
452
00:23:51,003 --> 00:23:53,733
it's their jurisdiction and.
453
00:23:54,503 --> 00:23:58,553
Accordingly, they need to have like
beat cops patrolling it, nabbing
454
00:23:58,733 --> 00:24:03,478
crooks and Especially when people,
in that jurisdiction are handing
455
00:24:03,478 --> 00:24:06,008
them crux and they just let them go.
456
00:24:06,088 --> 00:24:10,598
That is an abdication of duty
to protect their user base.
457
00:24:10,798 --> 00:24:11,058
Yeah.
458
00:24:11,138 --> 00:24:14,868
But it's not just like they have a
moral responsibility, like in their
459
00:24:14,898 --> 00:24:21,003
own SEC filings that I mentioned in the
article, they acknowledge we have a legal
460
00:24:21,003 --> 00:24:27,103
obligation and they're doing what so many
companies do these days, which is just.
461
00:24:29,023 --> 00:24:31,183
Yeah, the law says this, but
let's see how long we can get
462
00:24:31,183 --> 00:24:32,503
away with doing it this other way.
463
00:24:32,613 --> 00:24:34,673
And then pay the, I'm sorry fee.
464
00:24:35,163 --> 00:24:38,623
The, slap on the wrist thing that's
going to happen to us, inevitably.
465
00:24:38,923 --> 00:24:43,043
It's pure, I don't know the politics
of your podcast, but it is just.
466
00:24:43,848 --> 00:24:46,998
PlayStage Capitalism run
amok, end game stuff.
467
00:24:47,118 --> 00:24:49,288
This is what happens
to all these companies.
468
00:24:49,488 --> 00:24:53,358
That leads me into my next question
for you is that one would look
469
00:24:53,358 --> 00:24:56,308
at this and say, this cannot
be good long term for Upwork.
470
00:24:56,698 --> 00:25:00,928
If the place gets rid of you, I don't know
if you remember what Craig's List was like
471
00:25:00,928 --> 00:25:04,438
when it first started, but it was like
this heavenly panacea for all our stuff.
472
00:25:04,438 --> 00:25:05,488
This is great.
473
00:25:05,488 --> 00:25:06,468
I can go buy this or that.
474
00:25:06,468 --> 00:25:06,538
It's great.
475
00:25:06,708 --> 00:25:09,768
Now it's, at least from my
experience, it's a bit of a cesspool
476
00:25:10,068 --> 00:25:12,518
and a lot of people don't use
Craigslist anymore because of that.
477
00:25:12,778 --> 00:25:14,788
So is that same thing
going to happen to Upwork?
478
00:25:14,938 --> 00:25:15,788
It already is.
479
00:25:15,838 --> 00:25:16,088
What do you mean?
480
00:25:16,088 --> 00:25:17,368
It's not, is it going to happen?
481
00:25:17,958 --> 00:25:20,038
What I'm saying is that,
is it going to hurt them?
482
00:25:20,138 --> 00:25:21,508
No, I get the scam thing.
483
00:25:21,518 --> 00:25:25,858
What I'm asking is, do you think
people, true freelancers, Who might
484
00:25:25,858 --> 00:25:27,508
go on there and actually find work.
485
00:25:27,508 --> 00:25:30,908
And they're going to make money for
finding, putting people together.
486
00:25:30,938 --> 00:25:32,778
That's the whole idea.
487
00:25:33,178 --> 00:25:36,938
I don't think Upwork will
be around in 10 years.
488
00:25:36,998 --> 00:25:39,038
I don't think their
stock keeps going down.
489
00:25:39,408 --> 00:25:42,878
Their CEO keeps selling
the divested stock.
490
00:25:43,748 --> 00:25:44,438
They're.
491
00:25:44,788 --> 00:25:51,328
Business model has shifted to exploiting
an X and they're moving away from
492
00:25:51,518 --> 00:25:56,488
tithing their VIG or whatever they
get from each of these transactions.
493
00:25:56,598 --> 00:26:01,798
So they're focusing on this short term,
orderly profit, rent seeking model.
494
00:26:03,568 --> 00:26:06,328
Get people to pay as much as they
can until the bubble bursts and
495
00:26:06,378 --> 00:26:09,718
the company goes down and people
at the top are going to be making
496
00:26:10,098 --> 00:26:12,118
quite a bit of money along the way.
497
00:26:12,478 --> 00:26:13,588
This is not a business that.
498
00:26:14,163 --> 00:26:16,053
The people at top know this
business is not going to be around
499
00:26:16,523 --> 00:26:19,043
much longer That's my hypothesis.
500
00:26:19,463 --> 00:26:22,833
Wow, that's I would call you
cynical, but I don't think you
501
00:26:22,833 --> 00:26:24,593
are I think that's very realistic.
502
00:26:24,643 --> 00:26:27,153
No, it is so plain as day.
503
00:26:27,323 --> 00:26:30,013
They say it themselves between the
lines in those filing They're like
504
00:26:30,283 --> 00:26:34,663
we need to make sure that if we keep
doing keep letting this thing happen
505
00:26:35,208 --> 00:26:37,998
We won't be able to use visa as a card.
506
00:26:38,568 --> 00:26:40,938
Visa won't take our transactions anymore.
507
00:26:40,938 --> 00:26:42,598
So we got to at least be above this line.
508
00:26:42,978 --> 00:26:43,858
Fascinating.
509
00:26:43,918 --> 00:26:44,328
Okay.
510
00:26:44,338 --> 00:26:48,578
So let's talk about the more
holistic thing as we close out.
511
00:26:48,828 --> 00:26:52,638
So we've got, I will
never go on a personally.
512
00:26:52,638 --> 00:26:54,848
I'm just like, I, it's
just, I get the heebies.
513
00:26:54,858 --> 00:26:57,438
He was just even thinking
about going on there.
514
00:26:57,438 --> 00:26:58,878
I'd still have connects.
515
00:26:58,908 --> 00:27:01,678
I still could apply for the
jobs, but I don't trust anything.
516
00:27:01,708 --> 00:27:04,448
So obviously there's two people
that are like, nope, that would.
517
00:27:05,623 --> 00:27:08,183
I consider you a great, I've
read a couple of your articles.
518
00:27:08,183 --> 00:27:09,133
You're a great writer.
519
00:27:09,353 --> 00:27:11,413
I consider myself a professional.
520
00:27:11,753 --> 00:27:12,653
I'm not going on there.
521
00:27:12,653 --> 00:27:15,563
So they're obviously going to lose
people that would consider themselves
522
00:27:15,563 --> 00:27:16,963
professional or are professionals.
523
00:27:17,303 --> 00:27:20,603
What about the next stage of this
or the bigger, more holistic thing?
524
00:27:21,553 --> 00:27:23,413
You talked about the beat cop.
525
00:27:23,483 --> 00:27:25,533
What's the solution to this?
526
00:27:26,363 --> 00:27:33,203
I mean, the solution on the holistic
sense is that we as a society stop
527
00:27:33,203 --> 00:27:37,983
accepting the fight back against
the push to have every industry
528
00:27:38,033 --> 00:27:41,433
uberized and try to fight to retain.
529
00:27:42,038 --> 00:27:42,648
Labor rights.
530
00:27:43,338 --> 00:27:43,758
Yeah.
531
00:27:44,088 --> 00:27:46,328
Do you think that
companies are responsible?
532
00:27:46,388 --> 00:27:48,728
I know somebody else said to me
Oh, I use Upwork all the time.
533
00:27:48,728 --> 00:27:51,558
If I thought to myself wow,
you're getting cheap labor.
534
00:27:51,558 --> 00:27:52,178
Basically.
535
00:27:52,418 --> 00:27:53,868
Is that part of what you're saying?
536
00:27:54,118 --> 00:27:54,388
Yeah.
537
00:27:54,768 --> 00:27:57,618
It's that it's every, all the.
538
00:27:57,628 --> 00:28:02,618
They tout fortune 500 companies using
their site, but what they aren't saying
539
00:28:02,628 --> 00:28:07,038
in those Superbowl ads is that they're
doing it from the Philippines and
540
00:28:07,048 --> 00:28:12,328
they're like, basically doing digital
Colonization in a, for the new era
541
00:28:12,348 --> 00:28:16,198
where they're just like, we can, Hey, we
don't have to have our labor force here.
542
00:28:16,228 --> 00:28:20,748
We're doing sweat, we're doing
sweatshops online, but it's like paying
543
00:28:20,748 --> 00:28:22,398
one 25 an hour in the Philippines.
544
00:28:22,428 --> 00:28:22,818
Cool.
545
00:28:23,078 --> 00:28:23,268
Yeah.
546
00:28:23,268 --> 00:28:24,628
And they can get something from them.
547
00:28:24,628 --> 00:28:28,478
It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's
going to be better than, and they're going
548
00:28:28,478 --> 00:28:30,098
to, and it's more cost effective for them.
549
00:28:30,888 --> 00:28:32,068
I completely agree with you.
550
00:28:32,068 --> 00:28:34,818
Are they, that is a spot
on observation on that.
551
00:28:35,128 --> 00:28:37,648
I guess the last thing I would ask is.
552
00:28:37,658 --> 00:28:41,968
The part of this that even is more complex
is, and you just touched on it, is that
553
00:28:42,278 --> 00:28:48,048
international nature of the internet, that
it, there is no border to this, that you
554
00:28:48,078 --> 00:28:54,018
could be, I don't know who this person
was that set up this phony job and what
555
00:28:54,018 --> 00:28:58,358
their purpose was, but they could easily
be in an Albanian basement somewhere.
556
00:28:58,368 --> 00:28:59,938
They could easily be in India.
557
00:28:59,938 --> 00:29:01,208
They could easily be in the Philippines.
558
00:29:01,218 --> 00:29:03,698
And maybe you can't answer this, I
don't know, but I've been pondering
559
00:29:03,698 --> 00:29:05,008
this a lot as I do this series.
560
00:29:05,418 --> 00:29:06,338
How do we stop that?
561
00:29:06,728 --> 00:29:10,748
What does, I'm talking about the
United States, is there a way, or is
562
00:29:10,748 --> 00:29:12,168
that genie just out of the bottle?
563
00:29:12,618 --> 00:29:14,898
How do we stop the internationality of it?
564
00:29:15,258 --> 00:29:20,968
I'm saying the ability of international
criminals, Or people to take advantage
565
00:29:21,018 --> 00:29:23,188
of people digitally within the internet.
566
00:29:23,258 --> 00:29:26,758
So I don't know what I
know where my scale is.
567
00:29:26,978 --> 00:29:27,968
Yeah he's in Virginia.
568
00:29:28,668 --> 00:29:29,608
Oh, I get it.
569
00:29:29,608 --> 00:29:30,848
I'm not, that's not even what I'm saying.
570
00:29:30,848 --> 00:29:34,058
I'm not saying that Americans aren't
scamming, but I'm saying, let's
571
00:29:34,058 --> 00:29:38,308
just say that we got all these
laws and really made it tougher for
572
00:29:38,308 --> 00:29:39,878
Americans to cheat other Americans.
573
00:29:40,118 --> 00:29:43,048
How do we stop people from other
places from cheating Americans?
574
00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:45,848
I think it comes back to what we were
saying before, where it's ultimately
575
00:29:45,848 --> 00:29:48,928
the platform's responsibility.
576
00:29:49,618 --> 00:29:57,058
To develop robust systems of stopping
spotting, stopping and compensating,
577
00:29:57,678 --> 00:30:02,238
stopping scammers compensating
their victims and preventing similar
578
00:30:02,238 --> 00:30:03,408
ones from happening in the future.
579
00:30:03,448 --> 00:30:07,088
And until that happens, we're just
going to be going in circles here
580
00:30:07,358 --> 00:30:09,448
because it has to come from the top.
581
00:30:09,738 --> 00:30:11,468
It just can't come from
what are we going to do?
582
00:30:11,838 --> 00:30:16,353
We are all individuals, scammers
and victims alike I guess what we
583
00:30:16,353 --> 00:30:20,643
do is we write articles that draw
people's attention to it because I
584
00:30:20,693 --> 00:30:23,743
am deeply appreciative of the fact
that you took the time to write this.
585
00:30:24,073 --> 00:30:28,423
I hope that your career blows
up and that you're not having
586
00:30:28,423 --> 00:30:30,193
to go to these gig work sites.
587
00:30:30,203 --> 00:30:33,793
We didn't even get into the whole
concept of gig work and how I see
588
00:30:33,803 --> 00:30:35,203
that as late stage capitalism.
589
00:30:35,473 --> 00:30:37,053
Because I think gig work is.
590
00:30:37,408 --> 00:30:39,938
That's just another way of
people getting cheap labor.
591
00:30:39,958 --> 00:30:44,938
So that's what the freelancing is, not
necessarily gig work, but like Upwork is
592
00:30:44,978 --> 00:30:46,678
the gig work application of freelancing.
593
00:30:47,103 --> 00:30:48,393
Yeah, absolutely.
594
00:30:48,393 --> 00:30:49,133
And it's frightening.
595
00:30:50,133 --> 00:30:51,433
Thank you, Justin.
596
00:30:51,433 --> 00:30:55,203
Justin Caffier is a writer
for multiple outlets.
597
00:30:55,273 --> 00:30:58,183
Anything you want to press today
while you're on, Justin, tell the
598
00:30:58,183 --> 00:30:59,503
people that they can be looking for.
599
00:31:00,123 --> 00:31:04,893
Oh man, you could, if you want to
follow me on Twitter or Instagram.
600
00:31:05,258 --> 00:31:07,488
It's at Justin Caffier for everything.
601
00:31:08,058 --> 00:31:09,138
Just keep an eye out for me.
602
00:31:09,258 --> 00:31:10,338
I might have some projects to drop soon.
603
00:31:11,198 --> 00:31:11,678
Awesome.
604
00:31:11,848 --> 00:31:13,268
I'll put it in the show notes as well.
605
00:31:13,268 --> 00:31:15,838
So people can click on those,
but thanks so much for taking
606
00:31:15,868 --> 00:31:17,198
the time to meet with us today.
607
00:31:17,208 --> 00:31:18,168
It's all me with us.
608
00:31:18,368 --> 00:31:21,218
It's usually me and another
partner, but meeting with me today.
609
00:31:21,218 --> 00:31:21,898
I appreciate it.
610
00:31:21,938 --> 00:31:23,348
So have a great day, Justin.
611
00:31:23,988 --> 00:31:24,338
You too.
612
00:31:24,338 --> 00:31:24,833
Thanks.
613
00:31:25,533 --> 00:31:30,263
A fun little post log of the show I
recorded with Justin about a month ago.
614
00:31:30,683 --> 00:31:35,943
I had not gone on Upwork once since this
interview and I got an email saying, we're
615
00:31:35,943 --> 00:31:37,373
about ready to close your Upwork account.
616
00:31:37,383 --> 00:31:40,593
I was fine, but I thought that I would
go on there and check anyway, just out
617
00:31:40,593 --> 00:31:42,963
of curiosity to see what was going on.
618
00:31:42,963 --> 00:31:46,353
If there was anybody that was looking
for something, not to get a job, but just
619
00:31:46,403 --> 00:31:47,963
check and see what the deal was with it.
620
00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:51,773
Sure enough, I go on there and I've
got a request for somebody who wants
621
00:31:51,773 --> 00:31:53,763
to interview me and it's a scam.
622
00:31:54,103 --> 00:31:56,633
The only time I've gone on there
in a month and it's a scam.
623
00:31:56,633 --> 00:32:00,163
Now, again, I'm not blaming Upwork
for that, but it is ironic to me that
624
00:32:00,443 --> 00:32:04,823
the two times that I actually contact
somebody or they contact me, it's
625
00:32:04,823 --> 00:32:09,663
clearly a scam, remember to follow,
like, and subscribe if you get a chance,
626
00:32:10,013 --> 00:32:12,853
write us a comment on wherever you get
your podcasts, that would be great.
627
00:32:13,228 --> 00:32:18,288
Next week, we'll be back with a brand
new show with a dynamic crime fighter.
628
00:32:18,288 --> 00:32:20,658
I call her a crime fighter
because that's what she's doing.
629
00:32:20,958 --> 00:32:21,948
Aaron West from shamrock.
630
00:32:22,188 --> 00:32:22,508
org.
631
00:32:22,848 --> 00:32:26,128
Very exciting conversation
around pig butchering.
632
00:32:26,458 --> 00:32:29,438
I know you probably never heard that
term before, but trust me, you will.
633
00:32:29,578 --> 00:32:30,318
So have a great week.
634
00:32:30,348 --> 00:32:31,368
We'll talk to everybody soon.
