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Derek Lundsten: All right, and welcome to our latest installment of Rebels With A Heart. I am thrilled for our guest today and for the conversation that we're about to have. thank you for all of our, our listeners and watchers who joined live, as well as those who will watch this as the follow up recording. [
00:01:00] So with that, we will welcome Samara to Rebels With A Heart.
Tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey, and, and what you're working on right now, Samara. Thanks for being here.
Samara Jaffe: Thank you so much, Derek. I'm so honored to be in the amazing company of the guests that we have today. for background, I am the co founder and general manager of TRANSFORM, formerly known as HR TRANSFORM, which is really a community bringing together people first leaders that are thinking about and working on re envisioning the now and next of work.
I personally am a connector at heart and I think eternally curious. which makes my role, one, certainly a privilege that I get to meet so many amazing leaders, usually behind the scenes. So I admit I don't normally join podcasts, so this is an unusual circumstance today. but excited to be here amongst friends, having conversations about topics that I'm really passionate [
00:02:00] about.
And I know our community more broadly is really, really passionate about as well. So thank you for having me.
Derek Lundsten: Amazing. I'm happy you're here and I'm happy that you're in Phoenix actually as well. So welcome to our state. So we have a whole coast to coast group today. So going over to Josh, who's in Minnesota.
Welcome Josh, Rebels With A Heart.
Josh Drean: Wish I was in Phoenix with all of you right now as the temperature drops. very glad to be with you today. My name is Josh Turing. I developed a love for HR and work tech while I was building a startup out of the Harvard Innovation Labs. We were working to pioneer sentiment analysis in real time.
I think that's a fancy way of saying I care very much about employee engagement, how to collect that data in a way that makes sense. And then Implement insights, in a way that matters to the employee experience. I later became an advisor, and dug even further into work tech, what it looks like, from a corporate lens, also what it looks like from a [
00:03:00] Web3 lens.
So I talk a lot about decentralization and AI. I work a lot with young startups who are interested in pushing the boundaries of what's possible with these emerging technologies and what it means for work. that led me to co author a book. it's coming out next year. The title is Employment Is Dead.
how disruptive technologies are changing our relationship with work. And before we panic about that title, it's very rooted in Human centric, digital first, design. So, that's really exciting. Really excited for that to come out with my co author, Debra Perry Pichoni. And we are both, co founders of the Work3 Institute, where we help companies marry workforce strategies with Web3 technologies.
So, really excited to dig in with these experts today.
Derek Lundsten: That's a very rebellious topic, Josh. So, I'm looking forward to digging into that as well. So, thanks for being here. Yes, indeed. You will have one shortly. And, Erica, from New York, or in New York at the moment, on the way to [
00:04:00] Florida, welcome back as one of the few, I think you are the third, third person to come back for a second episode of Rebels With A Heart, in nearly four years of doing this, and hundreds now of episodes.
So, welcome back to Rebels With A Heart, and you have a book that's just been released as well, so.
Erica Keswin: I do. I do. And Josh, I love your, I love the idea for your book and the title. I can't wait to hear more about it. So my, I just wrote my third book, which is the final installment in what I am calling the Human Workplace Trilogy.
Okay. And it is right here, The Retention Revolution. and Josh, you'll be interested to know. That, there's a, in each of the chapters, there's what I call a sweet spot, which is a technology that I profile that helps leaders and organizations find the sweet spot between tech and connect. Meaning, how do we leverage technology for all of its greatness, which clearly we are all doing right now, spread out across the country.
But [
00:05:00] when, how, where, why do we put that technology in its place and connect in real life, whether that's in Las Vegas in March at Transform where everyone needs to be, or in Phoenix where it's warmer, or you can come visit me in Florida. So, I am all about the tech, even though I did write a book called Bring Your Human to Work.
So the high level of what this new book is about is that The retention revolution says that the world of work is changing. And as Josh says, employment is dead. that, but in my world, the world of work is changing and people aren't going to stay with one company their whole careers. They're not going to probably have two, three, or even four companies that their whole career.
So the revolution is that we as leaders need to be really intentional. About how we onboard and how we connect people to our mission and our vision and our values early and often from day one, even during recruiting and [
00:06:00] while they're with us during their tour of duty or whatever we want to call it, we want to help them to develop up, down and sideways.
and really get creative about growth and development because even especially Gen Z, they want growth and development even more than compensation in many cases. And then when the person does come and say, Derek, you know, I am moving on. We as leaders need to take a deep breath, maybe meditate for a minute and, refrain from the you're dead to me, don't let the door hit you in the behind.
And instead. Think about ways that we can leave gracefully and stay connected, because that is. The virtuous cycle of work.
Derek Lundsten: Love it. Thank you for that overview of the book, and we're going to explore that in detail and some of the topics here, relevant that are relevant. So again, for our guests, Derek Lundsten, I'm the president and chief culture officer of LifeGuides, as well as the host of Rebel With A Heart.
I have that privilege, which I've enjoyed over the last several years. And LifeGuides is a technology platform that [
00:07:00] connects people who have been through life experiences to be supportive guides for people going through those same experiences to help them thrive in and outside of the Workplace, wherever that may be.
So we're going to jump into this now, and talk about this topic. So a theme that all of you gave voice to, and I know you all have a lens and a view on, is this idea of employee engagement. And I mentioned in the beginning of this episode profile that we're going to the holiday season, right? It's right around the corner, starting imminently.
It's a time that many people are skipping. are reflecting on their, on their life, on their situation, on their relationships, on their career. It's a time where engagement oftentimes will, will dip for a variety of reasons in that way. And as we were talking about in the green room, it's been years of right now of challenge that seems to be just continuing to wave over us.
And right now, geopolitically, there's a lot of uncertainty and challenge in the world at a time where People are beginning to go inward and do that self examination of themselves and their relationships and their purpose. How do we, how do we [
00:08:00] support people right now? And what are you seeing kind of in your interactions?
You know, Erica, you were sharing some stories earlier. Samara, you're at a conference that's exploring this right now. you're talking about this idea of sovereignty. Josh, like, what does that all mean right now as we think about this next 30 ish days? And then... As we look to 2024, how is that going to affect employee engagement broadly and also how we support and connect with individuals to use your work with intention and personal.
You know, Grace, for lack of a better term. So anyway, you can riff with that. There's no, no set stone here. No, no set path. So feel free to chime in if you'd like.
Samara Jaffe: Who wants to go first.
Erica Keswin: Oh,
Samara Jaffe: I don't know. I mean, I think that the holidays are always a really interesting time in and of themselves right absent all of the other things that are happening in the world right now. and so, you know, I think certainly as I talk to a lot of leaders and [
00:09:00] as I'm thinking about our own organization, I think creating space for Just real human connection and conversation is really important.
Making sure to check in with your teams to, you know, give them space to share how they're doing. I certainly am an advocate for in real life connections. So our team has been growing a lot. And so I've actually, I was telling Erica, I'm reading her book this morning and Was really enjoying the onboarding portion of the deck because we have three new team members coming on in the next.
Three months on the transform team, which is amazing. and we are bringing the full extended team together early December for an offsite. And so I'm really looking forward to making space for everyone just to get to know each other. Like as much as it's important to focus on the business, I think creating space to allow people to make deeper connections [
00:10:00] on a human level that aren't transactional is more important than ever.
Derek Lundsten: Beautifully said.
Erica Keswin: Josh, do you want to go next and then I'll pipe in?
Josh Drean: I was kind of hoping you would go, Erika, and then I'll go for a second.
Erica Keswin: I'm happy. I'm like, I'm always, I'm happy to go.
Josh Drean: you're already, you're already pressing some hot buttons that I feel is really important for us to discuss in your intro and some of the things that we talked about in the prep call.
So let's continue to kind of run with that foundation. you know, that the last installment in your book and, and have a discussion around that.
Erica Keswin: What I would say as it relates to what you just said, and I love that the onboarding chapter resonated and that you're bringing everybody together for an offsite.
What I tell leaders to think about is doing what you say you're doing right now, you know, is the work or it is part of the work instead of, you know, we need to do work and, and so it's, it's this shift in. there is a [
00:11:00] correlation between connection and performance. So, you know, you're getting ready.
You're going to put on this big, huge, amazing conference. And what it reminded me of in looking at that correlation, a lot of, a lot of my work is inspired by a study out of Cornell. that a professor was studying what makes one team higher performing than another team. And his father was a firefighter.
And so he studied the firefighters. And what he found was that the firefighters who are the most dedicated to the ritual of the firehouse meal coming together. You know, in real life. Yeah. Correlated with higher performance and those firefighters save more lives. So as you were saying that, and I love that you're doing an offsite and we know people have to invest.
It costs real money to do that, but you can imagine fast forward and putting on a huge event, anything with your clients, with your customers, with your team, and then let alone a big, huge event in Las Vegas. Like it is stressful. And when I [
00:12:00] interviewed a lot of firefighters, what they found was that. When you get to know people as humans and know what's going on in their lives, when they get to that really stressful moment, you know, when something happens and the, the, the screen isn't working and the technology isn't working, you just end up giving each other more grace and you're able to then work together.
More effectively. So I'd love that. And I and I would tie it, Derek, to your opening question, which is when we think about the next 30 days, because quite frankly, the last 30 days have been some of the most stressful days I can remember in my lifetime for many reasons. and we think about going into 24.
I think what we need to lean in on is, and this is what we saw in March of 2020, and I often say, I don't want to go back to March of 2020 for myself or for the leaders I work with, but I don't want to forget all of what I saw and how we felt. So, and that's obviously where LifeGuides come in, but I want [
00:13:00] in 2024, in the next 30 days, I love the way you framed it, I want to think about that even more, but how can we continue to be more human, and to check in with the people that we work with and say to them, how are you really doing?
And actually mean it. Well said.
Derek Lundsten: And as you know, that is entirely one of the core components of LifeGuide. So thank you for highlighting that, Erica, and what the work that we're
doing. To that point, I just want to kind of highlight this, because Samara, you've really, the Transform community has really grown and flourished through the last few years.
I would love for you to share a bit about Why that is, I mean, a lot of times, it's been a challenging time for you to grow, but you have built one of the few communities, in my opinion, that's really just kind of grown like wildfire, and you're doing these in person events, and I believe you're building that connection and that spirit that Erica had kind of described.
I'd love for you to share a bit about that. Thank you. Kind of the origin and the vision for where it's going right now in the lens of what Erica was just sharing for checking [
00:14:00] in on people. Sure.
Samara Jaffe: so, so Transform was born back in 2018. And it's certainly been a journey for us. So this is actually going to be the fifth year of the event in March.
So that's a pretty big milestone for us that I'm very proud of. We're expecting over 3, 000 attendees, but I think what, and it's grown each year that we've had the event, but I think what's really special about this community is, number one, it's a community of communities, right? So it's really been an event and a community that's built by and for the community.
and so it allows, you know, the community to tell us what's important to them, right? Both from a experience perspective, a content perspective. You know, the people that they want to see in the room, the people that they want to engage in conversations, but I think, you know, beyond it being a community of communities, I think people are [
00:15:00] really hungry for that human connection.
And this is very much a human first. Events. So as much as you can curate amazing content and experiences, at the end of the day, what people are going to continue to come back for is the people that are in the room, right? The magic is really about the people that you bring together, the conversations that take place in the hallway, the kind of serendipity that happens when you bring people together.
And people are really hungry for that human connection, building those relationships, reconnecting with the people that they already know in the community, helping learn from one another, kind of sharing and giving back to the community, sharing their own experiences and expertise. And so really our job is To just provide a platform and the right environment to help facilitate that magic.
and, and that's what we try to do [
00:16:00] each year. Beautiful.
Derek Lundsten: Well, I look forward to joining you and I know you're doing an amazing job from everything that I've heard about the experience. So, look forward to
that. So, I'm going to cut for a second. We're going to come back to humanity. And Human Connection, but I want to, you kind of primed it up about what people are yearning for in that sense.
Josh, you're an expert and a thought leader around artificial intelligence and this idea of decentralization. There's a lot of, for lack of a better term, conflicting points of view and perspectives around what artificial intelligence will do to the workplace, to human connection, to people's employment, to people's growth paths.
To use some of your words, Erica, we'd love for you to kind of share your point of view on some of those, those tension points. and what you see around artificial intelligence contributing or, you know, detracting from human connection. and what you're doing in your work to. Drive that forward.
Josh Drean: Yeah, it's a good question. And I just want to make sure that we start with the same foundation [
00:17:00] that Samar and Eric has started with, which is being human centric. Right? Who we target our audience at the Work3 Institute is human centric, digital first leaders, and that's individuals who are, yes, interested in becoming more digital, but also staying rooted in that human, in the employee experience, really.
And as we talk about being You know, all of these things that we should be doing to be more human at work because it pushes forward, you know, productivity, employee satisfaction. Erika, you mentioned these studies out of Cornell, like, we have the data and we know that when we focus on employee experience design, not only are employees happier, they are more productive, happy employees, you know, all the things that we live and breathe every single day.
I don't have to rehash them in front of your audience because we're obviously here for a reason. My concern is... When we see employees wanting something, And we see [
00:18:00] companies doing the exact opposite. that's, that's the biggest rift that I see right now, especially when we look at return to the office, you know, there was a report that just came out yesterday from scoop, which is in partnership with the Boston consulting group that shows that flexible remote work is 16 percent more productive.
And they did this study across 500 organizations over three years. Like we, we, we have the data. So what's the problem here? Is it we're not implementing employee experience design well enough? Or have we just abandoned employee experience design because the economy is really tough right now and employees don't have as many options as they did at the, at the great resignation.
So what I see is this power dynamic that was kind of starting to find some equilibrium, right? Work is a partnership. It's a relationship to I'm the boss. You're the employee. I set the rules. You have to follow them. If [
00:19:00] not. You're going to have to find another job like they're less inclined. It feels to talk about burnout less inclined to do all of the great stuff that Erica is talking about.
And Erica, you can maybe share about some of the hard conversations that you're having. And so I'm laying this foundation to say, when we talk about AI. Sometimes it's hard to even hear it because we're already stressed with the myriad of things that are happening at work. Add a level of fear on top of that of AI is going to replace my job.
I think that like, especially from an HR standpoint, it's just too much to think about right now. And so we kind of like put that on the back burner. Whereas the work that I do, and you already hinted at this, Erica, is that I believe that going more digital is going to make us more human because we will, in a digital virtual environment, have some of those serendipitous connections that you talked about.
Samara will have more of an opportunity to connect with our employees, and so there, there are a lot of great things to come down the road, especially [
00:20:00] concerning ai. It's just, I'm, I'm concerned when I see ACEO. Over here who's human centric and says, you know, we will augment human potential. And then there are CEOs that you see that are like, Ooh, how is this going to reduce costs?
Especially because talent is so expensive. That's a really,
Derek Lundsten: so thank you. That's the exact tension point that I was kind of speaking to is that there are exactly that I know. And I know CEOs personally in both camps that are, that are looking at human augmentation of capability and literally saying, I will not bring artificial intelligence into the business at the same time.
Right? Or, to your other point, it's about eliminating human jobs. Like, it's, it's, there's a really interesting kind of mix of how people are approaching that. And I think, coming, I want to come back to your moment, your comment a little bit about employment being dead and decentralization and the role that plays on employee choice and sovereignty and how they allocate their time, their talent, and their, their financial
incentives.
But I want to come back to, because you threw it to Erica, and I think that was a good, good pathway back, because you were kind of commenting on this in your, In your four points of your book, Erica, maybe [
00:21:00] you'd like to share, because there is going to be that, that is that friction point of how we retain our talent.
And again, I would say. Even the word retain, there's a, there's a choice that's taking place. Mutuality of decision of where people spend their time and their effort. Right? And that's really, you're, you're, you're also speaking to that. That's, you're engaging their autonomy. It's less about retaining them.
It's more about inviting them to spend their energy and their talent and their contributions there as opposed to elsewhere.
Erica Keswin: Right. For as long as it's mutually beneficial to both. So, you know, the, the, oftentimes the, when I do one of my keynotes, the image that I have on the screen is a pendulum, you know, we've gone from the great resignation to the great or not so great recession, you know, this way to that way.
And, But in a, in a positive way, what the last couple years has done, I believe, because, because the days of golden handcuffs are over and the [
00:22:00] new generations are, are demanding this, that, that we, the old ways of doing things just aren't going to work. And so I was at an event the other night and, and there were a lot of.
People on the older end of the spectrum and given what's going on in the economy, there was almost this relief, whether they admitted it or not, but I knew I could see it. they were like, all right, this is, it's going to make my lives easier. We are just going back into the office because people have nowhere else to go.
But the retention revolution Is shows that that's not going to work because the minute that pendulum swings back even a little, those people are leaving. So I do believe it's starting to break down the idea of employers and employees being on opposite sides. of the bargaining table. And so, you know, what I'm seeing is that the idea is that we need to do these things within our organizations, how we leverage technology, how and when we bring [
00:23:00] people together, how we help people develop.
We, they're all good for people and good for our business, but is it, it is a big, big. shift in, in thinking. And a lot of it is being driven by these new generations that are driven by purpose. They want to feel that what they're doing is connected to a big mission. They, a Gen Z woman said to me this morning at this event I was hosting, she was like, it's not that I don't want to work hard, but I don't want my entire identity I don't want to lead with the fact that all I do is live to work and she's crushing it at work.
And so I think the new generations are, are bringing in full force what many of us would have wanted. And now we have technology to help us in a really positive way, bring, bring this to life.
Derek Lundsten: Well
said. Samara, you get to see and hear from your, to your point, communities when communities, what the demand or interest in are different topics and speakers and what are you, what are, to these [
00:24:00] points, what are you hearing right now as you plan for the content of the upcoming segment of Transform in this respect?
Samara Jaffe: Yeah, just to add on, I think the conversation around to return to work, it's funny, you know, if you asked me during the pandemic. Like we, we plan our agenda later in the cycle because we want to ensure that it's relevant and timely. and so, you know, we continue to monitor the conversations. We have a lot of conversations with leaders across the ecosystem to understand what's timely and relevant for them.
and certainly the return to work conversation, right? Remote work, flexibility continues to be very top of mind, for the community. And had you asked me a couple of years ago, I think I would have thought the pendulum would have kind of stayed in a certain point versus continuing to kind of swing back and forth.
but one of the interesting elements, I think, that Erika alluded to is the multiple [
00:25:00] generations and the need now for employers to personalize how they engage with different populations of their employee base. Like clearly one size does not fit all, and that's not just with respect to flexibility, that's respect, you know, with respect to benefits, total rewards, right?
There's, you know, learning and development, all of these. These workforces, I think, engage in different ways. and that certainly makes it more complex for employers to be able to deal with. But I think that is an increasing conversation about how do you personalize and understand, the behaviors and the kind of working norms of each generation.
How do you help them understand each other? and ultimately, how do you create an employee experience where everyone can thrive?
Derek Lundsten: Yeah. So each of you has a broad kind of pulse in the market from different organizations that you're working with. Are you seeing some best practices emerge in this respect [
00:26:00] that are really moving the needle in their culture and really moving the needle in their retention and driving productivity?
And you're, you're seeing those results. I mean, are there examples of, of, you could share any of you take that on, on that? of how they're approaching generational personalization across L& D, Total Rewards, hybrid work, how they're, how they're creating connection. Because I think that is a fundamental part of it.
For those working in the office, people are saying they want to drive performance and they want to drive connection, right? That's, and, and the story is that low performers need to be in the office because they're not able to, you know, self manage. And so that's a key part of it. And at the same time, you often have these younger generations, to your point, that are seeking their peers.
They want, they, they, they are creating their career identities. And so think back to when you were in your career, you're building some of your key relationships and your key learning opportunities by being in those, in the same physical space as those who are further ahead in their career or were sharing your interests.
And so we're trying. With some well intention to solve [
00:27:00] that, those, those disparate issues, which is kind of why I'm asking the question, are you seeing certain organizations do this really well right now? Because I know to your point, I think industry broadly is, or HR broadly is struggling with this. And so, because of the audience, I think we would love to hear from you.
Any specific examples on this?
Erica Keswin: Well, I can give one that I love from the chapter, from the onboarding chapter, which I know Samara has been, been reading. and again, a lot of this stuff is not rocket science and it doesn't even have to cost anything. So one of the companies that I profile in the book, it's actually an architecture firm, the CEO or the, the, one of the senior principals went to a conference and heard as an amazing speaker on, on.
You know, multi generational differences and she decided to, build in everybody watching, you know, a lecture or, you know, seeing this presentation as part of their onboarding and what she said and why it was so interesting. I mean, you know, yes, there are [
00:28:00] stereotypes, but, but there are You know, nuggets of truth to all of these generational differences.
And I think if we understand them, it gives us a perspective, that we can. You know, maximize the differences and maybe not take certain things personally. So what she said to me, Sarah Broughton was the woman that I interviewed. They're, so it's an architecture firm, pretty high end residential. Their clients are Gen Xers and Baby Boomers.
And most of the people, the people that are running the firm are Gen X and Millennials. And then a lot of the people. That they have working and drafting and doing all, of the day to day stuff are Gen Z and Millennials and so as people were going through and just understanding these generational differences, she, she, what she found was that you might have a Gen X, Gen Z that's going to have a Gen X boss and they were like, Oh, they Wow.
One of the generalizations about Gen [
00:29:00] X is that, you know, they really like to, to pull apart the arguments and peel back the onions and poke holes in things. And so if you know that about your potential boss, maybe you won't take as many things so, so personally, you know, as a Gen X. You know, so I think it's, it's bringing this awareness.
So that's sort of a way to understand the differences. we can certainly get into sort of competition benefits and things for different generations. But what I would also say, it's, it's important for all of us to, to understand also some things that might unify the generations. And to me, One of the things that's the most important that all of us want is we want to feel connected to purpose.
We want to know that what we do, it doesn't matter if you are, you know, the CEO, a middle manager, or the person putting the lights up at the conference, you know, whatever it is that what do. Matters. And [
00:30:00] so, to me, in this moment, that's more and more important. And one of the examples I give in the book, which is a historical one, which is, you know, when JFK went into NASA for the first time, he walked in and he said to the janitor What do you do?
And the janitor says, I, I'm putting a man on the moon. Well, yes, he is. And so I think it's something that let's, let's really lean into the differences and highlight and help people understand each other's differences. But at the end of the day, again, this is rebels in a heart with a heart. And what we all have in common is humanity that people want to feel like what they do
matters.
Samara Jaffe: And I think just to add to that, right, I think part of thinking about creating inclusive workplaces is celebrating those differences, right? Those differences actually challenge us all to be better, right? They bring different perspectives. They approach problems solving differently. They have different experiences.
And so creating an environment [
00:31:00] where all generations can share those perspectives, I think makes us all better, makes us think about things differently and approach business challenges and opportunities differently that we might otherwise. so understanding them, I think is important. I think leaning into them and celebrating them, is equally important.
Josh Drean: And I'll, I'll piggyback off of that, because understanding, especially the younger generation is something that we have, can I just come out and say, I think most corporations have failed to do well. it's, it seems like because the younger generation doesn't do it our way that they are lazy or entitled.
I remember in college as a millennial being labeled that way and just confused as I was busting my butt trying to go through school to get this degree so that I could enter the workforce. And our generation complied, right? We got into the workplace. We're like, what is this? This is not what I thought it was going to be.
And, and, you know, we got to work and we made it happen. [
00:32:00] The younger generation won't. If we really, if we are brave enough to ask them the hard questions, we might not like the answers. And I think that's why we're afraid to really ask them like, what do you want out of a career? What are the answers? I don't want a career.
What is a career? My, my mom had a career. My dad had a career. They worked 30 years at the same company. They got a gold watch. Yep. We want that style of loyalty. I don't want a boss, like, micromanaging me. Yes, it's important to have a cause, especially for this younger generation. But do they even believe that they can find a cause, a purpose within corporations as they currently stand?
And so these are the, the hard questions that we have to dig into is like, do our, does our company really care about understanding our people? Are we running employee engagement surveys? Are we implementing that, that feedback in a way that makes sense for employees and does improve on their experience?
And I'm so glad that we're among, you know, people who have organizations. You are both like giving us the [
00:33:00] very positive side of
things. When we look at it from a critical lens, you look at the younger generation say. I look at corporate world. I also was birthed out of the anything economy, the creator economy.
So I would rather build a career that is bits and pieces of what I like to do, to build skills from a micro lens, to build my own way of doing things. And that's where the formation of Web3 comes from. It's, you can do that. And you can mix and match several streams of income and you can work when you want with whomever you want from wherever you are in the world.
And all of a sudden the shackles start to fall off. And so I just want to paint the picture on the full spectrum of if you can't provide a great experience for employment for me, I'm going to go find it somewhere else.
Samara Jaffe: Is this the genesis of employment is dead? I feel like now we definitely need to hear the story behind that.
Yes.
Josh Drean: We are digging in there, and from a [
00:34:00] top level, right, like, structurally I think we can all agree that there are certain forms of work that we, these models that we are implementing now, that no longer serve us. Like, do we really need a 9 to 5? I think the pandemic showed us that like remote work is great, or who actually does turn off their emails at 7pm at night anymore.
How do you find that work life balance? Who opens up their computer late at night because they do their best work at that point? And so, first and foremost, traditional structures are outdated and they are... Allowing us like they're, they're slowing us down and we are not being as productive as we want to.
And the harder we push for that productivity without being human centric is we're going to continue to burn people out. We're going to continue to push them away from us. And it's hard to do any of these great things that we're talking about when they just don't trust their leader. so that's the, that's the first level.
Yeah, keep going. I don't want to take too much time here, but... Oh, go ahead, go ahead. Right now, employees are burned out, they're disengaged, and obviously the economy is [
00:35:00] not great. Yes, the, the pendulum will swing, swing the other way, and they will jump to another job. Which, do they believe it will be any better than what they had?
Is the culture any better? We are seeing the pendulum, where people, people are launching off the pendulum and finding their own career path in a decentralized way. Whether it's the gig economy or some of these other platforms that are coming out, where you can verify your work histories on the blockchain.
And now we're getting into the weeds. So I'm going to
Derek Lundsten: I love that we're getting into the weeds. This is a really important
thing. I'll just, I'm going to bring it back high level for a second. We can go back into the weeds, because I think you've raised an interesting point. Back to this idea, you mentioned cultures of inclusivity and belonging, Samara.
There's this idea, and Johnny Taylor talks about it a little bit. He talks about, yeah, it's inclusive and belonging and diverse as long as we agree, right? It's gotten down to the point we have to have the union of unity of thought. We can't disagree anymore. Otherwise, it's rejected until you comment about the younger generation and the search for work.
Independence or individualization in their workplace, we run the risk, in my [
00:36:00] opinion, of people not working together. They're just rejecting the relationship, and then they're actually complaining about being isolated and independent, but they've created that situation themselves because they refuse to do the deep work that you commented on, Erica, the actual work of connection, of why do we think and act and feel and believe what we believe, and as we unpack those layers of that, What does that do to actually create intimacy in our work, in our work relationships, and our ability to collaborate meaningfully, to build together, because to your point, and I love this idea of decentralization, and what we're talking about with Web3, truly, and I think it's fascinating, but at the same time, if everyone's independent, where is the unity?
Where is the cohesion of resources? Where is the common cause and purpose? And we're seeing that to your point about The dissolution of structures in our own kind of collective culture as a society. We're seeing that unraveling, like who is our, what's our national identity? What do we support? What do we believe?
What are our values? And it's, and it's something that is, you know, as you can tell, I'm very passionate about this, but [
00:37:00] it's something that's really rooted right now in the moment and Erica, you were kind of giving voice to it before we came in, just the level of. Of, you know, relational and societal and cultural fractioning that's taking place in the American culture, let alone the global culture.
I mean, this is really deep, heavy stuff and we do need to do the work. We do need to lean in as opposed to pull out of it, I think. And, and that's, and, but there needs to be still an environment for us to have the individualization and I'm just riffing now, so feel free to grab the ball at any time. But, but yeah, you got me going on that, Josh.
So yeah. Thoughts, anybody?
Erica Keswin: I mean, to your point, we do have to do the work. and it's, it's hard. It can be scary. I shared with people, you know, this morning, I, I think you, if, if we as leaders, you know, can lead with a little vulnerability, it takes the, the temperature down in terms of, we don't have to have it all figured out, but we do want to create, we should be [
00:38:00] creating a space to have these conversations.
I wrote an article, I can. Look it up in a minute, maybe stick it in the chat. But I, I interviewed a woman named Judith Harrison, who's the Chief Diversity Officer, Weber Shandwick, about something that she does there called Time to Connect. And it's funny, I heard her speak at a conference and I went up to her, I was sort of stalking her, and I'm like, do you realize that what you've created?
She cr she built it, created it after George Floyd was murdered. And then after that, there were so many other events. I mean, sadly, at least in this country, every other day, there's something to You know, that's going on that we need to come together to connect around and, but that was when it started and what she does.
And again, it's, it's not rocket science, but it's very explicit. So here's how it works. And she just did 1 literally. I saw her this morning. She's done 3 already of these conversations in the last 10 days, just around what's going on. you know, with the war in [
00:39:00] the Middle East. So she brings everyone together.
It is virtual. People can even, either do, type in the chat to have a conversation. They can raise their hand and go off mute, or they can just listen. She opens it by writing and then reading prepared marks, prepared remarks about her take on what is going on in the world. She leads with some vulnerability.
with it for herself, depending on the issues, she'll share how the company is supporting it and showing up. And then, but what I love, and I sort of pointed this out to her, having studied, you know, the science of rituals, she opens, she ends her introductory comments with one line. To everyone. And what she says is, and I ask you, and this is to like 300 people every other week.
and I just want to ask you, how are you doing? And then the end, she opens it up and. [
00:40:00] You know, it's not always the easiest. In the last week, she's had to shut down some of the political conversations that have been percolating up. She sets the ground rules. she says, we are one community and we are here to support each other as humans.
And her role in this is to Is to moderate it. And, you know, you have people getting off of mute saying, look, like, I am not okay. and, and again, creating an opportunity, leveraging the technology in this example, to, to let people be more, be more human at work. And the last thing I'll say on it, and, and it's It's not in that newsletter.
It's in, I think it's in my, my newsletter, but I, after two weeks ago, when she did one of these around the, around the war, she had a woman go off mute and raise her hand and say, I am a woman, I am black, and I am Jewish. [
00:41:00] I feel like it is, I am getting hit from all sides and I don't even know which end is up, but all I know is how amazing it felt for someone in my company to ask me how I was doing.
And so it doesn't, we don't need to overcomplicate it.
Derek Lundsten: Well said. I mean, I was sharing with you.
Samara Jaffe: So well said.
Derek Lundsten: Go ahead, Samara, you want to, you want to riff with that?
Samara Jaffe: No, I just was saying so, so well articulated. thank you for sharing that story with us.
Derek Lundsten: People are struggling, to your point, on this top, on this exact point. I mean, there's been months now, and it's been particularly pronounced over the last month, to your point, Eric, and, you know, I think I share with you all that LifeGuides, you know, we were getting demands from our clients, saying, you know, we need a topic specifically that addresses what's going on in this geopolitical stress.
Like, we've called that topic finding peace in a polarizing world, because no matter where you are, people are suffering. Their identities, their communities, their families, people are struggling, and they're [
00:42:00] looking for their truth. Environments and communities where they can, they can be safe. They can express what's going on.
And those differences, those unique attributes of their experience are celebrated, welcomed and able to be discussed openly. And that's something that has been a significant shift in the last 4 years. If you look at that conversation happening in the workplace right now on a big level, I mean, and the expectations around employers to have.
A voice or a stance on everything right now. It's a really complex environment and it's, and it's affecting the entire system. So. Yeah,
Josh Drean: Derek. And to that point, I feel like. Especially employees right now should be tuning in to how their boss, how their company is treating them in this moment. Because employee experience design is not going away.
It feels like it. There was a huge push last year. We were saying things like, the war on talent is over and talent finally won. And how far from the truth it feels [
00:43:00] today. But, but it's the same cycle that happened in the pandemic. How am I being treated in this moment of individualization of the work schedule and understanding how I fit into the greater mold?
We have employees right now who don't feel like their companies care about them. That should be the starting point, right? If, if we aren't listening and understanding, this goes back to engagement, then how can we design experiences that. Help them overcome the challenges that they're facing. And so I think it's just really important right now in this moment to look at the landscape.
Who's valuing employee experience design? Who's valuing shareholder experience? And how do you as an employee decide where your needs are met? Unfortunately, the ownership comes down to the individual employee. And unfortunately, we see employees jump from one toxic work culture to the next. Eventually, they're going to jump to a Web3 model for [
00:44:00] work that actually starts to meet their needs.
For me, the crux of it all stands for employ like, HR is dealing with real problems right now. Employees are they have a lot of needs that are evolving, and we need to be addressing those needs. If we aren't, then how can we gain that buy in, that trust, and that affects productivity, right? Brings it full circle for most of these organizations.
What's the ROI of the work that we are doing? What's the ROI of Rebels With A Heart, right? It's, it's making sure that we look at the long term goals. That the short term gains, yes, it's important to run hard at the end of the year. It's Q4, let's get it done. But if we do that at the expense of our people, it's not going to look great in the future.
Derek Lundsten: We completely agree,
Josh. I'm curious, for the folks that may not be as familiar, can you kind of articulate what is a Web3 work vision? What does that look like for people that may not be as familiar with this idea? Obviously, not everyone is, so maybe you could talk a bit about that.
Josh Drean: And we don't [
00:45:00] have to get into the weeds of the technology, what it looks like.
What I care about most is the application of this tech, especially from an HR lens. So, Erica, you talked about companies. having a purpose. If an employee can feel connected to the purpose of the organization, they're happier, they work better, they stay longer, attrition goes down. All of those great things.
I think from like a 1980s Franklin Covey lens, what that looks like is let's put the mission, vision, and standards and ideals up in the break room. Done. We've just solved the culture. and, and we know that it's much more than that, but what we see from a Web3 lens is what if An individual, their, their purpose isn't necessarily tied to the greater vision of the company, their purpose is the specific skill or capability that they have.
And when they work in a full time setting, it feels like they only get to do 10 percent of that skill and 90 percent of the rest is just dealing with the bureaucracy and all the other things. But I'm doing that so that [
00:46:00] I can do what I love. Web3 can, and hopefully will, flip the, the, the The pattern there and say, here, go out and do 90 percent of what you love because you have a skill.
It's verified on the blockchain, which means it's a trustless resume. It's not self reported. It's not me. Just, this is what I can do. You just have to trust me. It's actually verified my skills and the courses that I've taken. It's all verified. And now AI can match you. on projects. You don't work for a company, you work for several DAOs or Decentralized Autonomous Organizations at the same time.
And they're plugging you in because you have a skill and a capability. And now you're working for several different companies on your own own world, doing it in a way that makes sense for you when you want. You don't necessarily have a boss micromanaging you and you can earn income in that way. So that's just one example of what that looks like.
Are we there today? Absolutely. In [
00:47:00] certain spheres, mass adoption is another question.
Derek Lundsten: I'll just say to that point, and kind of bridging the conversation here, there are organizations now that are acting, for lack of a better term, as PEOs for multiple organizations. So as a gig employee, for example, or a part time worker, if you want to work for And I'm just, these are not the names that are valid.
I'm just using as example. If you want to work for Uber and you want to work for Walmart and you want to work for a retail chain and you want to work for yourself, you can receive benefits from a kind of a shared service model through this organization from all of them. They're all contributing in certain ways.
And so that in of itself to your point where we're now able to literally allocate our time and resources across across organizations as part of the future that you're talking about. And it's existing. I mean, I know organizations are doing this, so it's pretty, pretty wild stuff when you think about it.
And how does that, I mean, as you hear
that, I mean, I know you're in this area, Erica, how does that align with your book, Philosophical View, when you think about truly the war for talent is a whole [
00:48:00] nother discussion point when you put the, you know, the sovereignty in that individual where they want to put their time, right?
It's no longer just a one to one relationship. It's a one to many.
Erica Keswin: At the heart of the retention revolution, I mean, one, I would say, you know, if people say to me, Oh, well now it's a, an employer's market. I say to them, well, there has always been, and there will always be a war for your top talent. Like you don't want to lose.
There are certain people you just don't want to lose. It's, it doesn't matter what's going on in the market. I mean, you could maybe lose these 10 and it wouldn't matter, but this one. And so that's why we just need to get off the, the train of like everybody being on different sides. I also, you know, I worked at Russell Reynolds as an executive recruiter.
And I wonder if we all come back, you know, five years from now and have this conversation. I even see, I bet resumes are going to look totally different. That, that it's really just going to be like, [
00:49:00] I used to, I will admit this. This is the way it was done back in the day. You know, if I saw a resume and they had all, they moved to all these places.
It was like red flag, red flag, crumple it up. Toss it over my shoulder in the garbage, kind of kidding but not really. and so now I think those, those, those days are over and there's just going to be a shift, you know, to your point about, you know, what are the skills, what kind of value can I, and if we take off this layer of, ooh, if you're only there for, you know, eight months, it's necessary, you know, it's, it's a bad thing.
I just think we're turning all of this on its head and if we can shift our thinking into You know, these people, they're going to be with me. Maybe it's in a, maybe it's in as a portfolio, someone has a portfolio career and they're with me as a, as a, as a fractional or a gig person part time, but even with our full time employees, we're going to be together until It doesn't work for one of us, and when that's the case, if we can leave gracefully and stay [
00:50:00] connected, as we all know, and we've seen the articles, even Salesforce, you know, that fired all those people, and now they're trying to get them to come back, the challenge becomes, how did they leave?
Like, did they leave gracefully, or do people feel graceful? Awful. And so this retention revolution is we might have boomerangs or the day after a person leaves, there's still a client or a customer. And so it's, I mean, I would just say, yes, I agree with what you're all saying.
Derek Lundsten: I think that that example you just provided both Salesforce, but also just the idea of the mass hiring and then the mass layoffs that have taken place over the last couple of years is going to be a fascinating example that we'll be talking about.
Erica Keswin: But it's not new, because I worked, I was an executive coach, I worked at NYU in 2008, right, so I live in New York City, the world was imploding, I would have people come into my office, that were fired from, you know, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, they went [
00:51:00] to a fancy undergrad, they got their MBA, you know, they would never have thought they would be laid off in a million years, you know, and so they were coming into my office before they even went home, to share the news with their families.
So it, it's, it is this, this, this virtuous cycle that it happened, then it's going to happen now. And it's going to happen again in the future, which is why I feel like the commonality that we all have is that if we do these things, leveraging tech, getting people together in person in Vegas, in March, and, and doing things that are more human.
These are things that we need to do irrespective of the, of these pendulum swings.
Derek Lundsten: I completely agree. Josh?
Josh Drean: I do just want to say that like, it does look like a virtual cycle and like human nature and the nature of work and workforce ecosystems is going to Continue to look and feel in some way, but there are technological advances that [
00:52:00] will favor employees.
I say employees, I'm just referring to the workforce in general. There's going to be an opportunity for them to say like, See ya! Like, I no longer have to work for you. Right now, I work for you because I have to. I have to pay the bills, I have to have a job, and this is just the steps towards that. But there will be a moment where I believe that employees will have enough power to say, I don't have to work for you.
I have all of these other options, like the gig model. Now works for everybody at any time, and I don't have to work harder for them than I have to work for you, and oh, by the way, like, the benefits of my work life balance that I've been asking for for years, I can actually have it here, right? That's happening now, to your point.
Yeah,
Erica Keswin: I was going to say, it's happening now.
Derek Lundsten: Yeah, that's why retail, that's why you're making, you know, 18 an hour in McDonald's right now, that's why, you know, restaurants, retail chains, they can't find workers right now. That's the exact reason, because people are just saying, I'm not going to do it, I'm [
00:53:00] going to go do...
I'm going to go do a gig job. I'm going to go do different things, right? And, and to your point around even just the evolution of currency is, along with your topic, is part of this, right? How people are being compensated. And that's a whole other conversation we could have related to decentralization. But this has been, this has been amazing.
Samara, would you like to kind of put the cherry on top here? Anything you've heard on the conversation from this last little bit?
Samara Jaffe: I don't know if I have a cherry. I agree with everything that That everyone else said here. I mean, I think it's, it's so, I don't know that we have time for me to pontificate on just some memories and write conversations about, you know, how resume, the resume should be dead.
I feel like that was a conversation I started having 10 or 15 years ago, but, I have hope that, There's a lot more, I think, forward movement and technology that can support looking at skills, right, as kind of the common denominator. And I think in an environment where we start looking at [
00:54:00] skills, hopefully That creates opportunity both for people to leverage those skills in portfolio ways within organizations, as well as right across organizations.
so really interesting topics. and, you know, I think a lot of HR leaders in particular, right, are, have experienced so much burnout over the past. Five years, right, that they are really embracing kind of this portfolio approach, right, taking a lot of fractional work, doing a lot of consulting, giving back to the community, helping fuel innovation with new startups.
and so it's exciting, I think, to see that, and to have an environment. That is going to foster that more in the future, right, in whatever way you want to take your career journey, whether it's internally within an organization or across a broader spectrum or portfolio. I'm just excited to see the [
00:55:00] possibilities.
Derek Lundsten: Indeed. Well, thank you for being here. Real quickly, Samara, where can people, I know we talked about March in Vegas, where can people learn more about Transform in the event you're hosting?
Samara Jaffe: Absolutely. Well, I'd love to see everyone in Vegas at March, March 11th to 13th at the Wynn Las Vegas. You can learn more at transform.
us. and feel free to reach out. I'm sure all of us would be happy to connect with anyone, on LinkedIn or otherwise, and we'd love to stay in touch.
Derek Lundsten: We will include that in the show notes. And Erica, where can people get your newest book as well as the entire trilogy?
Erica Keswin: you can get any information, yay Samara, on my website which is just erikakeswin.
com. The books are at Barnes Noble. I love supporting local bookstores. Of course they're on Amazon. as any author, we, we, we love you. One of the things that's so important to us is to get people to review the book. So that's always helpful too. But, oh, and, and the other thing I would say, I've now just [
00:56:00] launched, my fourth LinkedIn learning course, and the fourth one launched yesterday, which is all about upskilling and internal mobility.
So if you click on the link on LinkedIn, it's actually free right now. So anybody could check that one
Derek Lundsten: out. Definitely that. And Josh, for those folks who are captivated by the weeds of our conversation related to DAOs all these different pieces, where can they learn more about the Work3 Institute?
Josh Drean: Yeah, work3.
me is our website. I'm hyperactive on social media, so I would love... To keep the conversation going, at Josh Drain, that's my LinkedIn, my TikTok if you're into that, my Instagram, and we're constantly posting content, great work related content, so I'd love to see you there.
Derek Lundsten: Awesome. And I would just echo in the comments from the notes from Greta.
Yes, the Compassion 2. 0 community of which LifeGuides is a founding partner as well as doing a lot of work, and we're doing a lot of work as well around the idea of measuring the ROI of [
00:57:00] care. So happy to share more through that and through LifeGuides. And to each of you as our Rebels, thank you for being here.
Thank you for being who you are. Being of the heart. Thank you for joining us as part of our alumni community, and looking forward to doing this amazing work with you, throughout this season and in 2024. And thank you to all of our guests who join us today, and we will watch this later. We appreciate the Rebels of the Heart community and wishing all of you an amazing Thanksgiving in the US and beyond.
Take care everyone.
Erica Keswin: Thank you. Bye everybody. See ya. Bye.
