Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful and Unpolished. As you know, I'm Tim Solomons. I say that every day, every day, every week. So, um, thank you very much for those who are coming back and for those who are discovering us for the first time. It's a pleasure having you. You are welcome. And we just kinda really play with ideas and, and pull things apart here and see how it relates to everyday real life.
Or hopefully real life, right? Different perspectives, different possibilities. So I have another very vi define divine, wonderful guest. I'm gonna say that clearly a divine, wonderful guest. Um, she's been a huge, uh, asset in my world. Great friend. Um, and a professional that I've worked with, which we're going to talk about today.
So, uh. Just real quick, we, our guest today is Nanette Levin and, uh, Nanette welcome. Hello. Welcome. You appreciate your having me. Nice. So to bring, uh, all of our listeners up to speed on who Nanette is, she's, she's been on a couple other episodes where we've bantered back and forth about, you know, just general ideas, but we're gonna focus on what Nanette is bringing to the table currently.
And, and I'm really excited that she's doing it because she is. Just powerful. And so this is who Nanette Levin. Nanette provides support for a wide variety of non-fiction, two non-fiction authors. She's a developmental editor, ghost writer, and strategic consultant who specializes in working with first and second time authors.
Since Nanette spent decades in the marketing industry, she also understands how to help clients create messages that resonate both in book content and in promotional material. And I have to attest to that because she's not only helped me. She was key in helping me write my book, but she was also key in helping me get it exposed even more.
Um, her style, her working style is interactive, compassionate, and forthright. Since the Net is a published author too, she recognizes the challenges that writers face. She founded book conductors as a publishing company in 2001, but after putting out a dozen titles, decided to shift to providing author support services.
Most recently, she's created book camp. So this book camp is a 12 week interactive program that helps provide, uh, an organized, fun, expert driven, customized, uh, and peer populated experience for first and second time nonfiction authors. That's, that's a lot to say. Welcome, Nette. Thank you very much. Sorry for the mouthful.
Oh yeah. It's great. Um, and. The, the, the book camp And, and I'm just gonna jump off real quick. For me personally, Nanette is the editor of my book. Nanette is, she was my partner in crime. We worked really diligent and hard for what, about a year, bringing that to life and, and really bringing my voice out. Um, I, I had the voice, but she actually helped me.
Bring volume to it, bring echo, bring you know, passion and compassion to it. So it's been really good in that sense. But I wanna jump off on this book camp. And for those who are out there thinking of writing a book, who have a book in them that, like myself, that keeps wanting to come out but never saw themselves as a writer.
Um, but now is really entertaining because the message is really, you know, echoing in them. For any of those who are writing their first book, thinking about writing their first book, potentially writing a second book. Why did you create. Book at this time? Well, I've created it for a number of reasons, but I guess probably the primary one was that the way a lot of editors typically work, and that's not always the way that I work, but the process tends to be to bring an editor in after the book is completed.
And I'm finding more and more. And I work with a lot of really great people, C-suite executives, people who are doing incredible memoirs, business people who have decades of experience. They figure things out very easily. But if the editing process starts after the book is written, it takes a lot more time to do the revisions and to ensure that the book.
Resonates with the intended audience and to get it organized in a way that makes sense to the reader because generally a reader is not at the point in their journey that the writer is so, might have been the writer five years ago, or last year, or 10 years ago, but not the writer today. And it can be very difficult, particularly for first and second time authors to put themselves.
In the reader's shoes when they start writing a book in the shoe. So this is designed to get professional support and peer support into the mix right from the onset before the author dives deep into the manuscript so that it drives the rest of the book writing process. Makes it a lot simpler, a lot more fun.
And sets up a strategy for the content that works. That's what, that's the big reason, that's the big reason why you did the book camp. Okay. Um, so I love this 'cause we're gonna banter back and forth and as it goes off, uh, so this is one thing that I love about what you do and I, I, having experienced it firsthand and seeing other people who are writers, um, I'm just gonna say this clearly.
Folks, just from my own personal experience, writers have a tendency to love what they say. They have a tendency to love their messaging, and I don't know, you correct me if I'm wrong, Nanette, but there's a lot of times where just because you're in love with it doesn't mean that the reader's going to be, and to have somebody who actually can give you a, a balanced, clear vision while still honoring your message.
What are your thoughts there? Because I, I, I've seen some other writers and they have published books and they're so in love with, you know, what it means and validating them and stuff like that. And it's like going, but what about the reader? I agree. It, it, it's always a challenge for people who are not accustomed to doing it, to write from the reader's perspective, but what should develop an understanding of how to do that?
It's relatively easy so. Yes, there is always tangent, tangential information in a book that probably needs to go, and every author faces that. I certainly have. I had three editors on my first book, and having that objective perspective is huge. But I think the other side of it is tend to write from their own perspective, and that's not always the best way.
To organize and construct a book that is intended for other people, readers, the writer that's out there that's listening to this right now, maybe your message is important and it, you know, it's just make sure you don't love it so much that you get in the way of the message, right? I mean, allow it to breathe, allow it to grow, allow it to, to flourish.
And having someone who, 'cause Let me ask you this, Nana with um. You know, we, we live in a world now, especially with AI and all this kind of stuff. There's a lot of illusionary, oh, I wrote this book, and it's like going, uh, you put a couple, you know, prompts into the computer, doesn't mean you wrote the book, you know, the, the, the computer wrote the book.
But for those who are actually out there exercising their, their, their skills, what are you noticing with, with the people who are, are truly engaged in the writing process? Well, it definitely, writing a book definitely changes you, the introspection that you go through, the process of putting your thoughts to paper, reorienting your perspectives to make what you're trying to share, easier to digest for others, transforms.
Who do you become as a result of writing the book at? At least to my mind, when it's done right. Being able to say you're a published author may be a credential, but going through the process of creating a book that is really useful to other people, and that's not to say that you change your message, but changing the way you express it.
Can mean the difference between people embracing what you have to say and scratching their heads. You just shared that and it really reminded me. Um, so about a month ago, I, I donate platelets for cancer patients. So I've been doing that for years and um, it's one of those things where, uh, when I published my book, when we got done and we published it and launched it, uh, one of the, um, phlebotomists there.
Purchased the book, then she purchased the audio book. Well, about a month ago I went in and I hadn't been back for like six months and I went in and I saw her. And it wasn't the fact, you know, being a published author that that's bestselling, right. Um, that wasn't what excited me. It was the fact that when we were sitting there having a discussion, she was teaching me about my book, about what was in the book.
And I was like, I said that I did, you know, that was in there. That, you know, and, and because it's coming from her perspective, what she learned, what her filters were, what, where she was at her time. Like you talked about, you know, the writers at a different time and the readers are at different times and, and those are, those are key elements that sometimes are forgot.
And having that. Experience. It was a blessing and it also floored me 'cause I was just like, wow, you know, to have someone teach you the material that they got. And it, it helped me learn more about what I had actually worked on and had created. Um, but let's get back to, so we're talking about, I, I just wanna interject that is tremendous.
That is really exciting. It is so wonderful to get that kind of feedback and when people actually. Try to teach, they learn more. So the fact that your book is prompting people to do that is fantastic. Thank you. It was, yeah, when she was like, she even came back, I mean, we, you know, we had a discussion for about 20, 30 minutes, and then before I left, she came back specifically to acknowledge that I shared vulnerability at the beginning of the book about what I had gone through too.
You know, come into the understanding that I was working with and I was like going, wow, you know, this is somebody who, maybe she knows my book, she read the introduction. She may know my book better than I know my book. Right. That kind of thing. But, but it, you know, it's, for me, that's, that's the magic. It's not the fact of I have a book and I can market or promote a book.
It's the fact that I have something that can mean something or help or support someone else. Right. In that experience though, thinking about the first time someone who's thinking about being a first time or wanting to be a first time or working and are a first time on their first book and or second book, what do you see as like the biggest issue that these authors face?
Depends on the author. It really does, but I think that everyone faces writer's block, and when you're a first time author, that can be more discouraging. Than at other times. So I think that is an issue. I think that some people really struggle with what to write about. They've had so many experiences in their lives and they have such a vast degree of knowledge about a variety of things that it can be hard to decide what to pick.
And that applies to business, books, leadership books, as much as it does to memoirs and how-tos. Well, and it's, it's, you know, the seeds of the book that actually, usually I'm coming from my own experience. So the, the seeds that I had that spurred me on, you know, like I said, this, this book bugged me for like eight or nine years.
I was like, yeah, yeah, good idea. Great. Wow. This, so finally then, once I dug into it, and then we, you know, our paths were connected. Um, but I had these like key elements that just kept eating at me and inspiring me and all this. And where I thought they would be in the book actually was at a different spot once we actually got to, because where I, uh, initially had it positioned was, you know, if you're gonna dump all of your value, like, or I've heard it sp spill all of your value, all your candy in the lobby.
Then when you get into the main suite, you have very little to work with. Right. And so it's, it's not even just having the good ideas, it's how is it structurally connecting from a storytelling, engaging sort of awareness? Right. And I will say almost every book I edit gets substantially. We organize after the initial manuscript rough draft, because.
It's editing is a different process than write it, and once you get the ideas down and you start looking at it from the perspective of the reader, oftentimes it's necessary. To change the way you're presenting material so that it's easier for the reader to understand and digest and follow. I'm just gonna add this, there was so much, I almost have to laugh at myself on this one.
There was so much that I didn't know, you know, like, like when you come back to me and it'd be like going, alright, what format, what font, what you know, what structure here? And I was like. Hell, I don't know. I didn't even, you know, to me a book was a book was a book. You know, I, I, I, I wasn't a person that didn't aspired to be an author.
I'm sort of the accidental author, right? And, but for those who are aspiring or are accidental, um, there's a lot more awareness that goes into this, this thing called the book that, uh. It's not just slap your picture on it. And I mean, and you can do that too. I mean, nowadays you can, you can, there's so many areas on the, on the spectrum that it can get done.
But if you are doing this, if you're this kind of writer, a. Potential writer who really wants to express themselves, realize there's a lot that goes into the layering, the formatting, the, the, the font, the so much. So I'll just throw that out there. Well, and, and I think you are referring more relative to our conversations about the organization of the book.
Yes. And there are a lot of different ways to organize a book, whether you have divided it into sections, uh, obviously you have chapters, but. Depending on the book and the message and who you're trying to reach. There are a lot of different ways that you can organize and present the information to make it clearer.
Yeah. Well, and one of the things just for let people who are listening, uh, so for me, um, I had a number of quotes in my book. I had a number of idea of quotes that were in my book. I didn't know all the laws and restrictions and regulations, and you're throwing this stuff out there like, well, it's this and it's enough course of that.
And I'm like, when That's not enough course. In my world, I didn't even know that existed. Right? Like, well, copyright is an issue when you put something to print. You know, I think people have gotten really casual about using other people's work. With the proliferation of online sharing and everything else, but once you put it into a printed book format, that can change things substantially.
It's not to say that copyright is right in other circumstances, but the potential costs of copyright infringement once you print a quantity of books can be substantial. Well, they, um, no, I was working with you and I, we were also, I was also, I. Diana had actually introduced me to you and Diana Needham, and she was exceptional one for introducing me to you.
'cause when I first met you. All right. Full disclosure. Um, when we first met, I was on the fence. I was like going, I don't need another person to work with on this book. I mean, I, you know, it's, it's, it was one of those things, like, I had been working on the book for a while and, um. But I was also spinning my wheels, right?
And I wasn't sure, I was like going, you know, is this worth what I, what I'm here to do? And so, uh, you know, the first meeting I was kind of like still stuck in my, uh, process. Why do I need this person? What do I need this person who, what are they gonna do for me, this stranger across on the other side of the country from me and all this kind of stuff.
Then by the second meeting, I mean, we just clicked and gelled and we started, I mean, I worked you out pretty good. I mean, we, we were, we were going through content pretty extreme. Wouldn't, wouldn't you say so? 'cause I mean, you, you were hitting the wall a little bit there. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of your question.
No, I was just saying that no. It was more of an acknowledgement that when, when we first started working together and it clicked for me and we, I started giving you a lot of material. You were really eating it up. I mean, the, how, how invested you were in my message and what I was doing was so, um, invigorating and powerful.
But it also had tested you. I mean, it was luckily, you know, you had a little bit more. Space and time at that time to work with. But I remember it was that, and I was like, so how was that for you? I mean, do you remember that process? I, I do remember that. And we shifted how we were gonna handle the editing.
After we spent a little bit of time spending more time than we needed to. How's that? Yeah. Like we were, we realized a be there was a better way than, you know, but it worked great. I mean, you know, I really, I, I will say, I, I really enjoyed your message and your style and your vulnerability, and your ideas and your perspectives.
It was a wonderful book project to work on. Thank you. Thank you. It was, um, but I didn't even know, I mean, Diana had also, um, and, and for some reason, you know, you, I, you have those like fuzzy moments. I ended up, uh, submitting the book to the national library, uh, what's it called? Uh, library of Congress.
That's what it was. And that was never on my radar. And it was like, oh, once we get this and we, we submit it. So it's like to have, you know, it wasn't just the fact that, hey, we got a bestseller, you know, book. It was like, wow, it's in the library of Congress. That's we, we went, we went all the way, we went all the way to Jordan and got it done.
You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, there, there are a lot of logistics to the back end of the shit. Yeah. And, and when, you know, being a very first time writer, again, this was never on the landscape for me. And to have someone guide me and, and coach me and nurture me and, and do the editing and, you know, even, even after the book, I mean, we, you know, have worked together so well, um, since then.
And that's why I keep having you back on the podcast 'cause. You know, what you bring is the value you bring is multi-layered, multi um, experiential. Thank you. And back at you. Thank you. So what are some tips that you have for wannabe authors or, or people who are, are seriously considering it, not just the, you know, the weekend warrior typewriters, but someone who's like, you know what?
I, I have a message that, that I'm really thinking about putting out there. What are some tips you have for them? I guess, and, and I, I will admit, I do have a bias here. Getting some objective perspective early in the process is a good idea. And I will say there are some authors that I just meet with for an hour or two and it, before they start.
Writing the book in earnest and it totally transforms the book that they ultimately produce. You are so close to the subject matter. It's really hard to see things that someone else, particularly someone that is familiar with the industry, can see and help you see. And the longer I do this, the more convinced I am that.
Early help is so much better for everyone involved than waiting until you complete a final wealth draft, and that doesn't need to be compensated help. It could be a peer group, but the challenge with peer groups is ensuring that people who are participating understand industry precepts and understand your audience and all of those things.
A lot of times with peer groups. Once people have successfully published, they leave. So you have a lot of people who are at the same place in the journey and everybody has an opinion about everything, particularly these days. So that is not always the best feedback to get. There are workshops, there are classes, there are professionals like myself who come in and provide consultative support or beyond, but I think.
It makes sense before you dive too deep to have a conversation with someone about where you wanna go with the book and gain some of their insight as to what might help make the book more successful. I'm gonna raise part of this dynamic for those potentially who are listening, you know, who are writing a book, wanna write a book, that kind of thing.
So let's say you are a first time writer or second time writer, and you, uh. You've been plugging away and you have your full manuscript. Okay, fine. That's great. The big question for you, I, I would say is are you open to real feedback around it? If there's adjustment, if there's something else, because again, it goes back to one of our earlier statements, my earlier statement, which is we have a tendency to fall in love with our own work and we get married to it.
And just 'cause you think it's a good message doesn't necessarily mean it's landing the way you think it should. The good thing that I find, the good and bad right there. There's, there's pitfalls here. Um, getting information from a peer group can be very helpful and powerful. It can also be frustrating and detrimental because sometimes people in the peer group get married or attached to their idea about your work, and so it's really.
Why I encourage and you know, was excited about having Nanette on the show today is when you work with a professional who can give you feedback and not be attached or, um. I'd say attached is probably the best way, be attached to the idea of your work. Like, like to, to work with someone who holds objectivity, you know, and can sit there and say, what is your messaging?
What is it that, you know, what do you want this book to do? Not only for the reader, but for the author, for the book itself. You know, there, there's a lot of perspectives to consider. And, you know, like any other editors out there, I mean, I've crossed paths with others editors, um, who I don't feel as confident in.
I mean, they don't, they don't seem to hold onto the same objectivity that, you know, 'cause ultimately all of the decisions that Nanette helped me with. It was still my choice. It was my decision. It wasn't, you know, she didn't like, well, if you do it like this, it's gonna fail, or there was never any of that.
It was, there was just clear information so that I had an informed, an informed process or an informed perspective about the process that helped me to make more. Effective decisions, I guess is the way to say it. Um, as I'm babbling on here, Nanette, what, what are your thoughts around someone who comes to you with a full manuscript and you sit down to see if you're a fit, which is, is always the, the optimal move, right?
But when you sit down to see if you're a fit, are you more engaging with them to see if they're workable or. Are you focused on the manuscript itself and the, the messaging there? What are your thoughts? Both? It's both and it goes both ways. You know, I am a firm believer that all parties should feel wonderful about the interactions, and sometimes you have personalities that don't necessarily work well together, and sometimes the content isn't.
Necessarily, you know, I, I maintain a fairly narrow focus in what I do, and I am quick and happy to refer people to other excellent providers if I don't feel that I'm the best one for the jobs, and that includes fiction. I don't do fiction at all, so I have people that I have sought out and assessed. That I can refer others to if I don't feel that it's an ideal fit.
You know, getting back to your comment, 'cause you've said this twice, so I wanted to revisit this about cutting material out of the book. That's not something that always happens, but it is very common for material to be rearranged or repurposed. I mean, if something doesn't fit in a book, you can almost always find another way to use that content, either as part of a promotional.
Message or as a blog post, or a newsletter or social media stuff. So it, it's never gone. It's never wasted time. I mean, not, and, and going back to what I said before, I mean, you know, the writing experience is worthwhile. Whether it winds up between the covers of a printed book or not. But that said, yes, definitely fit is important.
And I always get concerned. I hire a lot of vendors myself, and I get concerned when people seem too hungry. Oh, I could do that. I could do that, and I could do that. I think that the best providers that you could engage are people who are very clear about where they excel and what kind of personalities they work well with.
And are Okay. Offering other options to get something done. So what are your thoughts around, um, and I don't know. I mean, there we're, we're talking about things that are available on the spectrum, right? I am, I I talk about the spectrum all the time. 'cause it's, it's a big element that I use in my book, right?
Because everything's on the spectrum. You know, we, we talk about people, oh, these people are on the spectrum. Everybody's on the spectrum there. You just may be talking about a specific segment of the spectrum, but the truth is, is we're all there in some form, some fashion, some way we're all, you know, 'cause it's there.
There's many different options. There's many different perspectives in which to connect and choose from. So thinking about the spectrum aspect, so let's say somebody is a first time writer. And it all depends on why they're writing the book, right? I mean, why? Why it becomes a big thing, not only in the messaging of the book, but you know, what is your intent with the book after the book is written, after it's done?
When you talk about marketing, let's say you get the book done, what are like a couple tips that are key elements for a new author to consider when it goes into the marketing of the book afterwards? Sure, and, and I do wanna qualify what I'm gonna say with, I stay in my lane and my lane right now is developmental editing, consultative book support and ghostwriting.
So I refer people out to others for the marketing aspects of the book. But that said, some really critical marketing things to pay attention to. The back cover of the book. That is often, and I, you know, I haven't checked the statistics lately, but it used to be the second place people went when they were checking out a book after they looked at the cover.
I think that you wanna be able to have sound bites around the book, so you wanna be able to explain what it is in a sentence, and that gets used all over the place, whether it's social media, whether you're doing radio, whether you're on a television show. Whatever it is, there's on your website, all of that and more These days, your promotion is about your reach, and that includes whether you decide to self-publish or do a hybrid publishing deal or go with the traditional publisher, you're gonna be responsible for promoting your book.
It is a rare situation unless you're an Obama or someone. Where a traditional publishing house is gonna put a lot of money into promoting your title, so that falls on you. So along those lines, I would encourage anybody who is thinking about doing a book launch to start to groom and grow their online audience, whether that's wherever it is, everybody has a place that they're most comfortable with.
It might be LinkedIn, it might be Facebook. Believe it or not, the horse titles that I do market best on Pinterest, and I'm not marketing the title directly, but for example, one thing that I did is I did a series of 50 young horse training tips and I put them on a common graphic and put 'em out there with my website address on it, and that still drives book sales.
And I don't even say I have a book with them, but people pass them around. So you'd be surprised where the best online place might be. You know, might be Instagram. It just depends. But I think it behooves any author who's thinking, any first time author who's thinking about putting a book out there to start considering where they can best engage with their audience online and to build that up.
Nice. Thank you for that. Um, so I'm gonna take you on a little left turn here because this is powerful and unpolished and a lot of times, most times, almost all the time on powerful and unpolished, uh, we talk about the professionals, the people, the leaders that we have on the show, and we talk about what, you know, what they're doing, what they're working on, what they do for a living, stuff like this.
But ultimately it's about who they are. And you just talked about. The horses, the, the horse tips and stuff like this. So, uh, share with our listeners here a little bit. Tell us about a little bit about your back horse history. Well, for, for about 20 years, I ran 117 acre farm. Upstate New York, and when I say upstate New York, I'm talking western New York, not the suburbs of New York City.
I was about an hour south of Rochester in a little town called and did a lot of horse training there, primarily young horse training. And we also bred Irish draft sport courses. So that, that's, that's kind of my recreation slash hobbies slash. Half of my income generator for 20 years of my life. Wow. So I, I knew you had that extensive history, but it, it really, I'm gonna tie it in here.
So for those of you who are thinking about maybe joining the bootcamp, the, the, the book camp or, uh, looking into it, um. I bring up Annette's background because there's a lot of work around equine therapy and equine work, and I would say that with the wisdom that this young lady has, that she has been working with the horses, I mean, and horses are, you know, I, I don't know, Nanette, you have your own version, but my perspective of horses is they, they are divine creatures.
They are, you know, um, there, there's so much wisdom and, and. Insight that these characters have, that to be able to work with them consistently and the different breeds and and things like that, to then turn around and be able to work with human beings. You know, that's really good. I mean, she, I would, I would say there were maybe a couple times where I was probably starting to head off the path because of my certain ideas and, you know, she just kind of had a conversation with me and redirected me back to, oh, this is what I'm here to achieve.
This is what I'm focused on. Don't go get lost in the weeds. And so, um, you know, maybe your book writing experience might be similar to mine, where, you know. She, she's your editor. But the truth is, is she's kind of like your, your equine coach or equine, you know, she's guy, she's guiding me like a big horse.
Let's just say that. I was more of a draft horse. Well, I, I might work better with horses than people too. She's probably still out on that one. I was gonna say, yeah, nowadays you might, you might enjoy working with horses better than people, but, um. I enjoy working with people. You know, it's funny, I'm at a point in my career now where I can be a little choosy about the clients that I decide to work with, and because of that I absolutely relish all of the clients that I work with.
And if that's not happening, I refer them to somebody more appropriate. So it's, it's a nice place to be. That's why I do this podcast, to be honest with you. I meet so many different people. I, I, I do dig people. I mean, I, I really, uh, when you have individuals who show up in their spirit, show up in their, their, their unique presence, um, and they're sharing that with the world.
I think you should be honored. Um, that's one reason why I created the show. It's one reason, part of the messaging that I have in my book, that I have in my business that I work with, my, my personal clients, my private clients, and the trains that we do, is all about honoring the individual. Not just their ideas, but the heart, the soul, the essence, the energy that they bring to the experience that, that is the human experience.
I mean. You know, if we were all just our ideas, that'd be a pretty empty existence. But when we actually start to connect, you know, our head to our heart and, and, and our whole being, our soulness about it, it makes things magic. I mean, it's one reason, go, go back through the history of time, and this goes with those writers that are out there.
Human beings from the beginning of time have been storytellers. Oratory. I mean, we, we share our, our history, not only public history, but our personal, our individual history. It's, it's what we do to connect ourselves to our path, to our purpose in this world, and to be able to, you know, if you have a, a message in you that is really working to come out.
You know, give yourself a fighting chance and, and find a professional out there. You know, maybe reach out to Nanette and, you know, check out this experience and see what it does for you. Or, you know, get a reference to someone else that you know, but, but do something with it. Don't let that, um, I've heard this a lot lately.
Don't let that song die within you. Don't let it, don't let it expire because you never got around to doing it. Well, and along those lines, Tim, you had asked me earlier about some tips for first time authors, and one of the tips that I would have is don't take writer's block at face value. Don't, don't accept writer's block as a given.
There are so many easy ways to get around that, and so some of the things that I would suggest is if you're having trouble getting your thoughts out, start the day before. If you're doing some writing, give yourself a prompt as you finish up the day so that you can dive right into the next step. If you're not.
Feeling excited and motivated by what you're writing about, write about something else. You do not have to complete a book in order. You can jump to something that you're feeling really passionate about at the moment. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it's not an essay you need to submit to your professor the next day, right?
It's R, right, because it means something to you. I would suggest is that you get into a writing routine and that can be 10 or 15 minutes a day. It doesn't have to be long. If you want it to go longer after you've done your 10 or 15 minutes a day, you can pat yourself on the back for the accomplishment and go on.
But I think it makes a really big difference if you make writing part of your daily routine, and that doesn't always have to be book writing. If you're not feeling inspired to write a book. Page or chapter, write a journal entry or a poem or whatever. But just get into that routine. And I think what you'll find is on the days that you don't do it, you miss it.
That really helps. So just a few ideas for anybody who's feeling stuck about writing. Yeah, build up that. Build up that habit. Build up that, that need to express yourself. 'cause you're worth it. You're worth expressing yourself in these ideas and putting your voice out there in this way. Like sometimes I want to add to what you just said, Nanette, which is.
Sometimes people think, oh, you know, these guys kind of say what I say and these guys kind of say, what? Yeah, but they don't say it the way you say it. So it's like, just 'cause you might find other books, other voices out there that might be similar to yours. Don't let that suppress your, your need to express yourself to, to speak your voice.
Right. Your voice is worth being heard. I, I do mean that It's like, there will be people listening to this who'll have an opinion going, well, I don't know if I wanna hear their voice or, you know, stuff like this. But it's like, no, it, it, it's worth being heard, you know, if anything, just to learn something about that person, right?
And so, be willing to honor yourself and honor your voice and, you know, see where it takes you real quick. Nanette, I want to ask you, um. So some people might be like book camp. What is book camp like? Like what's the experience of it? Can you give us a little insight there? Absolutely. It's a 12 week program that is peer supported, combined with professional editing and consultative support for me on three chapters of your book and creating a rough table of contents and all of that.
So it's designed to get people into. A writing rhythm over a 12 week period that they can then use as information to go finish a manuscript. And it should be a lot of fun. This is a new initiative, so Nice. We'll, we'll, we'll see how it goes. I'm excited about it. And the main reason beyond what we had talked about earlier that I wanted to offer this is I wanted to create something that was more affordable for people.
Who were looking for professional support and also that included a peer support component. 'cause that is not something that I generally do. We cap it at six people, so it's an intimate group and over 12 weeks you will have cheerleaders and commiserate and everybody else along for the ride with you. Wow, excellent.
Now, how can they get ahold of you? Do, do they go to book conductors.com or, or tell, tell us. They do that and there's a whole, uh, new section on book camp on there. You can click through it from the homepage, both from the pull down menu, and there's also a block at the above the fold on the homepage.
People can email me at Nanette. That's N-A-N-E-T-T e@bookconductors.com. Nice. Any offers around this? Yeah, as I said, this is a new program, so anybody who wants to jump on, and I am not sure when we're gonna start, part of the application form includes some questions around what days and times work best for everybody.
So we're gonna figure out when we're gonna do it based on what is most comfortable for the people who jump in. So anybody who. Puts in an application and wind up participating in the adventure can get 30% off now through May 1st of the program. And just, just tell 'em Tim sent Well, yeah, just say, just let 'em know.
Um, let Annette know or whoever that you heard about it on, you know, the podcast, powerful and unpolished. Um, and. 30% off to have professional support, a, a cohesive, small, pure group that actually is, you know, invested as well. Um, there's, there's a ton of value in this experience and to bring your voice, to bring your message out into the world.
It's worth, it's worth honoring yourself in that experience. So, yeah, I, I'm really excited about it, Tim. I really am. And what part of what this includes is personal one-on-one time with me. Not only editing three chapters, but having one-on-one conversations about book challenges and issues and ideas moving forward.
So I think it'll be a lot of fun for everybody involved. I, I would encourage you that if this is something that you're seriously contemplating thinking about, definitely reach out to nanette@bookconductors.com or nanette@bookconductors.com. And, um, you know, it, it's, we're, we're putting out this exposure and, you know, let's see if we can get this filled up.
It may fill up relatively soon. I just saw yesterday that we've had over 50 different countries. Listen to this podcast, powerful and un polished. And I'm like going, wow, I didn't even didn't realize that. You know? And it, it may just be one person who clicked on it for a little bit. I have no idea. But, you know, somebody's out there at least intrigued enough to listen to it.
And you know, for those of you who are, um. We're, we're going into a new world and, and the new world is really kind of like step in, lean into your voice, put your voice out there, and, you know, see the kind of impact that you can create for yourself and, and your future moving forward. So, um, and your first book, your second book, it, it can be, uh, uh, it can be whatever you wanna make of it.
My mine became a seed. I didn't realize that's what I was doing when I actually wrote the book, but it became a seed to help others nurture and grow themselves, and which is quite honestly growing me, greater than I ever thought I would or could. So I want to thank you so much for being here today, Nanette.
Um, it is such a gift to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I really appreciate it and I'm super excited about this and can't thank you enough for helping me spread the little word a little bit about books. Yeah. Well, let me know. I mean, you know, if anybody else kind of steps in and, or you know, maybe it's not for you, but maybe it's someone that you're listening to, maybe you have a little brother or a little sister, or you know, your wife or your husband has, has been contemplating this.
It's like, you know, what a gift to give them something that, that. Helps to guide them through this whole process and, you know, get, get the minutia out of the way so that the message can come through. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. Very big deal. Um, I'm gonna say that again. It's a very big deal, believe me, but.
To all of our listeners, you are a blessing. Thank you for taking the time outta your day. We hope that this has enriched you. Um, if you like the show, please hit the, like, follow us, um, share it with a friend and just know that we here at Powerful and Unpolished and also Insights for Choice. It's really about working and connecting with individuals so that they.
They can stand in their power, not only the power of their intelligence, but the power of their emotional intelligence, the, the power of recognizing who they are in this world and what else can stand out for them as individuals and as a collective. Okay? So treat each other well while you're out there and until next time.
We wish you all the best. Have a wonderful week ahead of you. Take care. Thank you for joining us today. If you've resonated with any of the stories or insights shared on this episode, please give us a like and remember to hit that subscribe button. Your support means the world to us, so feel free to share your thoughts using the hashtag hashtag powerful and unpolished podcast.
Until next time, make sure you stay powerful and stay unpolished.
You ever wonder why success doesn't always equal fulfillment? I'm Tim Solomons, and with 30 years experience as a corporate trainer with a career spanning blue collar to corporate, to public service industries, I've seen and experienced the human condition at its best and worst. Here on powerful and unpolished, we will explore the everyday traps draining our energy and hindering fulfillment.
This isn't just another success podcast. It's about breaking free from patterns that hold you back and limit your potential. Join me on this transformative journey as we explore and identify limiting traps detached from draining patterns, and rediscover the power within creating a life that is truly powerful and unpolished.
Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful and Unpolished. As you know, I'm Tim Solomons. I say that every day, every day, every week. So, um, thank you very much for those who are coming back and for those who are discovering us for the first time. It's a pleasure having you. You are welcome. And we just kinda really play with ideas and, and pull things apart here and see how it relates to everyday real life.
Or hopefully real life, right? Different perspectives, different possibilities. So I have another very vi define divine, wonderful guest. I'm gonna say that clearly a divine, wonderful guest. Um, she's been a huge, uh, asset in my world. Great friend. Um, and a professional that I've worked with, which we're going to talk about today.
So, uh. Just real quick, we, our guest today is Nanette Levin and, uh, Nanette welcome. Hello. Welcome. You appreciate your having me. Nice. So to bring, uh, all of our listeners up to speed on who Nanette is, she's, she's been on a couple other episodes where we've bantered back and forth about, you know, just general ideas, but we're gonna focus on what Nanette is bringing to the table currently.
And, and I'm really excited that she's doing it because she is. Just powerful. And so this is who Nanette Levin. Nanette provides support for a wide variety of non-fiction, two non-fiction authors. She's a developmental editor, ghost writer, and strategic consultant who specializes in working with first and second time authors.
Since Nanette spent decades in the marketing industry, she also understands how to help clients create messages that resonate both in book content and in promotional material. And I have to attest to that because she's not only helped me. She was key in helping me write my book, but she was also key in helping me get it exposed even more.
Um, her style, her working style is interactive, compassionate, and forthright. Since the Net is a published author too, she recognizes the challenges that writers face. She founded book conductors as a publishing company in 2001, but after putting out a dozen titles, decided to shift to providing author support services.
Most recently, she's created book camp. So this book camp is a 12 week interactive program that helps provide, uh, an organized, fun, expert driven, customized, uh, and peer populated experience for first and second time nonfiction authors. That's, that's a lot to say. Welcome, Nette. Thank you very much. Sorry for the mouthful.
Oh yeah. It's great. Um, and. The, the, the book camp And, and I'm just gonna jump off real quick. For me personally, Nanette is the editor of my book. Nanette is, she was my partner in crime. We worked really diligent and hard for what, about a year, bringing that to life and, and really bringing my voice out. Um, I, I had the voice, but she actually helped me.
Bring volume to it, bring echo, bring you know, passion and compassion to it. So it's been really good in that sense. But I wanna jump off on this book camp. And for those who are out there thinking of writing a book, who have a book in them that, like myself, that keeps wanting to come out but never saw themselves as a writer.
Um, but now is really entertaining because the message is really, you know, echoing in them. For any of those who are writing their first book, thinking about writing their first book, potentially writing a second book. Why did you create. Book at this time? Well, I've created it for a number of reasons, but I guess probably the primary one was that the way a lot of editors typically work, and that's not always the way that I work, but the process tends to be to bring an editor in after the book is completed.
And I'm finding more and more. And I work with a lot of really great people, C-suite executives, people who are doing incredible memoirs, business people who have decades of experience. They figure things out very easily. But if the editing process starts after the book is written, it takes a lot more time to do the revisions and to ensure that the book.
Resonates with the intended audience and to get it organized in a way that makes sense to the reader because generally a reader is not at the point in their journey that the writer is so, might have been the writer five years ago, or last year, or 10 years ago, but not the writer today. And it can be very difficult, particularly for first and second time authors to put themselves.
In the reader's shoes when they start writing a book in the shoe. So this is designed to get professional support and peer support into the mix right from the onset before the author dives deep into the manuscript so that it drives the rest of the book writing process. Makes it a lot simpler, a lot more fun.
And sets up a strategy for the content that works. That's what, that's the big reason, that's the big reason why you did the book camp. Okay. Um, so I love this 'cause we're gonna banter back and forth and as it goes off, uh, so this is one thing that I love about what you do and I, I, having experienced it firsthand and seeing other people who are writers, um, I'm just gonna say this clearly.
Folks, just from my own personal experience, writers have a tendency to love what they say. They have a tendency to love their messaging, and I don't know, you correct me if I'm wrong, Nanette, but there's a lot of times where just because you're in love with it doesn't mean that the reader's going to be, and to have somebody who actually can give you a, a balanced, clear vision while still honoring your message.
What are your thoughts there? Because I, I, I've seen some other writers and they have published books and they're so in love with, you know, what it means and validating them and stuff like that. And it's like going, but what about the reader? I agree. It, it, it's always a challenge for people who are not accustomed to doing it, to write from the reader's perspective, but what should develop an understanding of how to do that?
It's relatively easy so. Yes, there is always tangent, tangential information in a book that probably needs to go, and every author faces that. I certainly have. I had three editors on my first book, and having that objective perspective is huge. But I think the other side of it is tend to write from their own perspective, and that's not always the best way.
To organize and construct a book that is intended for other people, readers, the writer that's out there that's listening to this right now, maybe your message is important and it, you know, it's just make sure you don't love it so much that you get in the way of the message, right? I mean, allow it to breathe, allow it to grow, allow it to, to flourish.
And having someone who, 'cause Let me ask you this, Nana with um. You know, we, we live in a world now, especially with AI and all this kind of stuff. There's a lot of illusionary, oh, I wrote this book, and it's like going, uh, you put a couple, you know, prompts into the computer, doesn't mean you wrote the book, you know, the, the, the computer wrote the book.
But for those who are actually out there exercising their, their, their skills, what are you noticing with, with the people who are, are truly engaged in the writing process? Well, it definitely, writing a book definitely changes you, the introspection that you go through, the process of putting your thoughts to paper, reorienting your perspectives to make what you're trying to share, easier to digest for others, transforms.
Who do you become as a result of writing the book at? At least to my mind, when it's done right. Being able to say you're a published author may be a credential, but going through the process of creating a book that is really useful to other people, and that's not to say that you change your message, but changing the way you express it.
Can mean the difference between people embracing what you have to say and scratching their heads. You just shared that and it really reminded me. Um, so about a month ago, I, I donate platelets for cancer patients. So I've been doing that for years and um, it's one of those things where, uh, when I published my book, when we got done and we published it and launched it, uh, one of the, um, phlebotomists there.
Purchased the book, then she purchased the audio book. Well, about a month ago I went in and I hadn't been back for like six months and I went in and I saw her. And it wasn't the fact, you know, being a published author that that's bestselling, right. Um, that wasn't what excited me. It was the fact that when we were sitting there having a discussion, she was teaching me about my book, about what was in the book.
And I was like, I said that I did, you know, that was in there. That, you know, and, and because it's coming from her perspective, what she learned, what her filters were, what, where she was at her time. Like you talked about, you know, the writers at a different time and the readers are at different times and, and those are, those are key elements that sometimes are forgot.
And having that. Experience. It was a blessing and it also floored me 'cause I was just like, wow, you know, to have someone teach you the material that they got. And it, it helped me learn more about what I had actually worked on and had created. Um, but let's get back to, so we're talking about, I, I just wanna interject that is tremendous.
That is really exciting. It is so wonderful to get that kind of feedback and when people actually. Try to teach, they learn more. So the fact that your book is prompting people to do that is fantastic. Thank you. It was, yeah, when she was like, she even came back, I mean, we, you know, we had a discussion for about 20, 30 minutes, and then before I left, she came back specifically to acknowledge that I shared vulnerability at the beginning of the book about what I had gone through too.
You know, come into the understanding that I was working with and I was like going, wow, you know, this is somebody who, maybe she knows my book, she read the introduction. She may know my book better than I know my book. Right. That kind of thing. But, but it, you know, it's, for me, that's, that's the magic. It's not the fact of I have a book and I can market or promote a book.
It's the fact that I have something that can mean something or help or support someone else. Right. In that experience though, thinking about the first time someone who's thinking about being a first time or wanting to be a first time or working and are a first time on their first book and or second book, what do you see as like the biggest issue that these authors face?
Depends on the author. It really does, but I think that everyone faces writer's block, and when you're a first time author, that can be more discouraging. Than at other times. So I think that is an issue. I think that some people really struggle with what to write about. They've had so many experiences in their lives and they have such a vast degree of knowledge about a variety of things that it can be hard to decide what to pick.
And that applies to business, books, leadership books, as much as it does to memoirs and how-tos. Well, and it's, it's, you know, the seeds of the book that actually, usually I'm coming from my own experience. So the, the seeds that I had that spurred me on, you know, like I said, this, this book bugged me for like eight or nine years.
I was like, yeah, yeah, good idea. Great. Wow. This, so finally then, once I dug into it, and then we, you know, our paths were connected. Um, but I had these like key elements that just kept eating at me and inspiring me and all this. And where I thought they would be in the book actually was at a different spot once we actually got to, because where I, uh, initially had it positioned was, you know, if you're gonna dump all of your value, like, or I've heard it sp spill all of your value, all your candy in the lobby.
Then when you get into the main suite, you have very little to work with. Right. And so it's, it's not even just having the good ideas, it's how is it structurally connecting from a storytelling, engaging sort of awareness? Right. And I will say almost every book I edit gets substantially. We organize after the initial manuscript rough draft, because.
It's editing is a different process than write it, and once you get the ideas down and you start looking at it from the perspective of the reader, oftentimes it's necessary. To change the way you're presenting material so that it's easier for the reader to understand and digest and follow. I'm just gonna add this, there was so much, I almost have to laugh at myself on this one.
There was so much that I didn't know, you know, like, like when you come back to me and it'd be like going, alright, what format, what font, what you know, what structure here? And I was like. Hell, I don't know. I didn't even, you know, to me a book was a book was a book. You know, I, I, I, I wasn't a person that didn't aspired to be an author.
I'm sort of the accidental author, right? And, but for those who are aspiring or are accidental, um, there's a lot more awareness that goes into this, this thing called the book that, uh. It's not just slap your picture on it. And I mean, and you can do that too. I mean, nowadays you can, you can, there's so many areas on the, on the spectrum that it can get done.
But if you are doing this, if you're this kind of writer, a. Potential writer who really wants to express themselves, realize there's a lot that goes into the layering, the formatting, the, the, the font, the so much. So I'll just throw that out there. Well, and, and I think you are referring more relative to our conversations about the organization of the book.
Yes. And there are a lot of different ways to organize a book, whether you have divided it into sections, uh, obviously you have chapters, but. Depending on the book and the message and who you're trying to reach. There are a lot of different ways that you can organize and present the information to make it clearer.
Yeah. Well, and one of the things just for let people who are listening, uh, so for me, um, I had a number of quotes in my book. I had a number of idea of quotes that were in my book. I didn't know all the laws and restrictions and regulations, and you're throwing this stuff out there like, well, it's this and it's enough course of that.
And I'm like, when That's not enough course. In my world, I didn't even know that existed. Right? Like, well, copyright is an issue when you put something to print. You know, I think people have gotten really casual about using other people's work. With the proliferation of online sharing and everything else, but once you put it into a printed book format, that can change things substantially.
It's not to say that copyright is right in other circumstances, but the potential costs of copyright infringement once you print a quantity of books can be substantial. Well, they, um, no, I was working with you and I, we were also, I was also, I. Diana had actually introduced me to you and Diana Needham, and she was exceptional one for introducing me to you.
'cause when I first met you. All right. Full disclosure. Um, when we first met, I was on the fence. I was like going, I don't need another person to work with on this book. I mean, I, you know, it's, it's, it was one of those things, like, I had been working on the book for a while and, um. But I was also spinning my wheels, right?
And I wasn't sure, I was like going, you know, is this worth what I, what I'm here to do? And so, uh, you know, the first meeting I was kind of like still stuck in my, uh, process. Why do I need this person? What do I need this person who, what are they gonna do for me, this stranger across on the other side of the country from me and all this kind of stuff.
Then by the second meeting, I mean, we just clicked and gelled and we started, I mean, I worked you out pretty good. I mean, we, we were, we were going through content pretty extreme. Wouldn't, wouldn't you say so? 'cause I mean, you, you were hitting the wall a little bit there. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of your question.
No, I was just saying that no. It was more of an acknowledgement that when, when we first started working together and it clicked for me and we, I started giving you a lot of material. You were really eating it up. I mean, the, how, how invested you were in my message and what I was doing was so, um, invigorating and powerful.
But it also had tested you. I mean, it was luckily, you know, you had a little bit more. Space and time at that time to work with. But I remember it was that, and I was like, so how was that for you? I mean, do you remember that process? I, I do remember that. And we shifted how we were gonna handle the editing.
After we spent a little bit of time spending more time than we needed to. How's that? Yeah. Like we were, we realized a be there was a better way than, you know, but it worked great. I mean, you know, I really, I, I will say, I, I really enjoyed your message and your style and your vulnerability, and your ideas and your perspectives.
It was a wonderful book project to work on. Thank you. Thank you. It was, um, but I didn't even know, I mean, Diana had also, um, and, and for some reason, you know, you, I, you have those like fuzzy moments. I ended up, uh, submitting the book to the national library, uh, what's it called? Uh, library of Congress.
That's what it was. And that was never on my radar. And it was like, oh, once we get this and we, we submit it. So it's like to have, you know, it wasn't just the fact that, hey, we got a bestseller, you know, book. It was like, wow, it's in the library of Congress. That's we, we went, we went all the way, we went all the way to Jordan and got it done.
You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, there, there are a lot of logistics to the back end of the shit. Yeah. And, and when, you know, being a very first time writer, again, this was never on the landscape for me. And to have someone guide me and, and coach me and nurture me and, and do the editing and, you know, even, even after the book, I mean, we, you know, have worked together so well, um, since then.
And that's why I keep having you back on the podcast 'cause. You know, what you bring is the value you bring is multi-layered, multi um, experiential. Thank you. And back at you. Thank you. So what are some tips that you have for wannabe authors or, or people who are, are seriously considering it, not just the, you know, the weekend warrior typewriters, but someone who's like, you know what?
I, I have a message that, that I'm really thinking about putting out there. What are some tips you have for them? I guess, and, and I, I will admit, I do have a bias here. Getting some objective perspective early in the process is a good idea. And I will say there are some authors that I just meet with for an hour or two and it, before they start.
Writing the book in earnest and it totally transforms the book that they ultimately produce. You are so close to the subject matter. It's really hard to see things that someone else, particularly someone that is familiar with the industry, can see and help you see. And the longer I do this, the more convinced I am that.
Early help is so much better for everyone involved than waiting until you complete a final wealth draft, and that doesn't need to be compensated help. It could be a peer group, but the challenge with peer groups is ensuring that people who are participating understand industry precepts and understand your audience and all of those things.
A lot of times with peer groups. Once people have successfully published, they leave. So you have a lot of people who are at the same place in the journey and everybody has an opinion about everything, particularly these days. So that is not always the best feedback to get. There are workshops, there are classes, there are professionals like myself who come in and provide consultative support or beyond, but I think.
It makes sense before you dive too deep to have a conversation with someone about where you wanna go with the book and gain some of their insight as to what might help make the book more successful. I'm gonna raise part of this dynamic for those potentially who are listening, you know, who are writing a book, wanna write a book, that kind of thing.
So let's say you are a first time writer or second time writer, and you, uh. You've been plugging away and you have your full manuscript. Okay, fine. That's great. The big question for you, I, I would say is are you open to real feedback around it? If there's adjustment, if there's something else, because again, it goes back to one of our earlier statements, my earlier statement, which is we have a tendency to fall in love with our own work and we get married to it.
And just 'cause you think it's a good message doesn't necessarily mean it's landing the way you think it should. The good thing that I find, the good and bad right there. There's, there's pitfalls here. Um, getting information from a peer group can be very helpful and powerful. It can also be frustrating and detrimental because sometimes people in the peer group get married or attached to their idea about your work, and so it's really.
Why I encourage and you know, was excited about having Nanette on the show today is when you work with a professional who can give you feedback and not be attached or, um. I'd say attached is probably the best way, be attached to the idea of your work. Like, like to, to work with someone who holds objectivity, you know, and can sit there and say, what is your messaging?
What is it that, you know, what do you want this book to do? Not only for the reader, but for the author, for the book itself. You know, there, there's a lot of perspectives to consider. And, you know, like any other editors out there, I mean, I've crossed paths with others editors, um, who I don't feel as confident in.
I mean, they don't, they don't seem to hold onto the same objectivity that, you know, 'cause ultimately all of the decisions that Nanette helped me with. It was still my choice. It was my decision. It wasn't, you know, she didn't like, well, if you do it like this, it's gonna fail, or there was never any of that.
It was, there was just clear information so that I had an informed, an informed process or an informed perspective about the process that helped me to make more. Effective decisions, I guess is the way to say it. Um, as I'm babbling on here, Nanette, what, what are your thoughts around someone who comes to you with a full manuscript and you sit down to see if you're a fit, which is, is always the, the optimal move, right?
But when you sit down to see if you're a fit, are you more engaging with them to see if they're workable or. Are you focused on the manuscript itself and the, the messaging there? What are your thoughts? Both? It's both and it goes both ways. You know, I am a firm believer that all parties should feel wonderful about the interactions, and sometimes you have personalities that don't necessarily work well together, and sometimes the content isn't.
Necessarily, you know, I, I maintain a fairly narrow focus in what I do, and I am quick and happy to refer people to other excellent providers if I don't feel that I'm the best one for the jobs, and that includes fiction. I don't do fiction at all, so I have people that I have sought out and assessed. That I can refer others to if I don't feel that it's an ideal fit.
You know, getting back to your comment, 'cause you've said this twice, so I wanted to revisit this about cutting material out of the book. That's not something that always happens, but it is very common for material to be rearranged or repurposed. I mean, if something doesn't fit in a book, you can almost always find another way to use that content, either as part of a promotional.
Message or as a blog post, or a newsletter or social media stuff. So it, it's never gone. It's never wasted time. I mean, not, and, and going back to what I said before, I mean, you know, the writing experience is worthwhile. Whether it winds up between the covers of a printed book or not. But that said, yes, definitely fit is important.
And I always get concerned. I hire a lot of vendors myself, and I get concerned when people seem too hungry. Oh, I could do that. I could do that, and I could do that. I think that the best providers that you could engage are people who are very clear about where they excel and what kind of personalities they work well with.
And are Okay. Offering other options to get something done. So what are your thoughts around, um, and I don't know. I mean, there we're, we're talking about things that are available on the spectrum, right? I am, I I talk about the spectrum all the time. 'cause it's, it's a big element that I use in my book, right?
Because everything's on the spectrum. You know, we, we talk about people, oh, these people are on the spectrum. Everybody's on the spectrum there. You just may be talking about a specific segment of the spectrum, but the truth is, is we're all there in some form, some fashion, some way we're all, you know, 'cause it's there.
There's many different options. There's many different perspectives in which to connect and choose from. So thinking about the spectrum aspect, so let's say somebody is a first time writer. And it all depends on why they're writing the book, right? I mean, why? Why it becomes a big thing, not only in the messaging of the book, but you know, what is your intent with the book after the book is written, after it's done?
When you talk about marketing, let's say you get the book done, what are like a couple tips that are key elements for a new author to consider when it goes into the marketing of the book afterwards? Sure, and, and I do wanna qualify what I'm gonna say with, I stay in my lane and my lane right now is developmental editing, consultative book support and ghostwriting.
So I refer people out to others for the marketing aspects of the book. But that said, some really critical marketing things to pay attention to. The back cover of the book. That is often, and I, you know, I haven't checked the statistics lately, but it used to be the second place people went when they were checking out a book after they looked at the cover.
I think that you wanna be able to have sound bites around the book, so you wanna be able to explain what it is in a sentence, and that gets used all over the place, whether it's social media, whether you're doing radio, whether you're on a television show. Whatever it is, there's on your website, all of that and more These days, your promotion is about your reach, and that includes whether you decide to self-publish or do a hybrid publishing deal or go with the traditional publisher, you're gonna be responsible for promoting your book.
It is a rare situation unless you're an Obama or someone. Where a traditional publishing house is gonna put a lot of money into promoting your title, so that falls on you. So along those lines, I would encourage anybody who is thinking about doing a book launch to start to groom and grow their online audience, whether that's wherever it is, everybody has a place that they're most comfortable with.
It might be LinkedIn, it might be Facebook. Believe it or not, the horse titles that I do market best on Pinterest, and I'm not marketing the title directly, but for example, one thing that I did is I did a series of 50 young horse training tips and I put them on a common graphic and put 'em out there with my website address on it, and that still drives book sales.
And I don't even say I have a book with them, but people pass them around. So you'd be surprised where the best online place might be. You know, might be Instagram. It just depends. But I think it behooves any author who's thinking, any first time author who's thinking about putting a book out there to start considering where they can best engage with their audience online and to build that up.
Nice. Thank you for that. Um, so I'm gonna take you on a little left turn here because this is powerful and unpolished and a lot of times, most times, almost all the time on powerful and unpolished, uh, we talk about the professionals, the people, the leaders that we have on the show, and we talk about what, you know, what they're doing, what they're working on, what they do for a living, stuff like this.
But ultimately it's about who they are. And you just talked about. The horses, the, the horse tips and stuff like this. So, uh, share with our listeners here a little bit. Tell us about a little bit about your back horse history. Well, for, for about 20 years, I ran 117 acre farm. Upstate New York, and when I say upstate New York, I'm talking western New York, not the suburbs of New York City.
I was about an hour south of Rochester in a little town called and did a lot of horse training there, primarily young horse training. And we also bred Irish draft sport courses. So that, that's, that's kind of my recreation slash hobbies slash. Half of my income generator for 20 years of my life. Wow. So I, I knew you had that extensive history, but it, it really, I'm gonna tie it in here.
So for those of you who are thinking about maybe joining the bootcamp, the, the, the book camp or, uh, looking into it, um. I bring up Annette's background because there's a lot of work around equine therapy and equine work, and I would say that with the wisdom that this young lady has, that she has been working with the horses, I mean, and horses are, you know, I, I don't know, Nanette, you have your own version, but my perspective of horses is they, they are divine creatures.
They are, you know, um, there, there's so much wisdom and, and. Insight that these characters have, that to be able to work with them consistently and the different breeds and and things like that, to then turn around and be able to work with human beings. You know, that's really good. I mean, she, I would, I would say there were maybe a couple times where I was probably starting to head off the path because of my certain ideas and, you know, she just kind of had a conversation with me and redirected me back to, oh, this is what I'm here to achieve.
This is what I'm focused on. Don't go get lost in the weeds. And so, um, you know, maybe your book writing experience might be similar to mine, where, you know. She, she's your editor. But the truth is, is she's kind of like your, your equine coach or equine, you know, she's guy, she's guiding me like a big horse.
Let's just say that. I was more of a draft horse. Well, I, I might work better with horses than people too. She's probably still out on that one. I was gonna say, yeah, nowadays you might, you might enjoy working with horses better than people, but, um. I enjoy working with people. You know, it's funny, I'm at a point in my career now where I can be a little choosy about the clients that I decide to work with, and because of that I absolutely relish all of the clients that I work with.
And if that's not happening, I refer them to somebody more appropriate. So it's, it's a nice place to be. That's why I do this podcast, to be honest with you. I meet so many different people. I, I, I do dig people. I mean, I, I really, uh, when you have individuals who show up in their spirit, show up in their, their, their unique presence, um, and they're sharing that with the world.
I think you should be honored. Um, that's one reason why I created the show. It's one reason, part of the messaging that I have in my book, that I have in my business that I work with, my, my personal clients, my private clients, and the trains that we do, is all about honoring the individual. Not just their ideas, but the heart, the soul, the essence, the energy that they bring to the experience that, that is the human experience.
I mean. You know, if we were all just our ideas, that'd be a pretty empty existence. But when we actually start to connect, you know, our head to our heart and, and, and our whole being, our soulness about it, it makes things magic. I mean, it's one reason, go, go back through the history of time, and this goes with those writers that are out there.
Human beings from the beginning of time have been storytellers. Oratory. I mean, we, we share our, our history, not only public history, but our personal, our individual history. It's, it's what we do to connect ourselves to our path, to our purpose in this world, and to be able to, you know, if you have a, a message in you that is really working to come out.
You know, give yourself a fighting chance and, and find a professional out there. You know, maybe reach out to Nanette and, you know, check out this experience and see what it does for you. Or, you know, get a reference to someone else that you know, but, but do something with it. Don't let that, um, I've heard this a lot lately.
Don't let that song die within you. Don't let it, don't let it expire because you never got around to doing it. Well, and along those lines, Tim, you had asked me earlier about some tips for first time authors, and one of the tips that I would have is don't take writer's block at face value. Don't, don't accept writer's block as a given.
There are so many easy ways to get around that, and so some of the things that I would suggest is if you're having trouble getting your thoughts out, start the day before. If you're doing some writing, give yourself a prompt as you finish up the day so that you can dive right into the next step. If you're not.
Feeling excited and motivated by what you're writing about, write about something else. You do not have to complete a book in order. You can jump to something that you're feeling really passionate about at the moment. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it's not an essay you need to submit to your professor the next day, right?
It's R, right, because it means something to you. I would suggest is that you get into a writing routine and that can be 10 or 15 minutes a day. It doesn't have to be long. If you want it to go longer after you've done your 10 or 15 minutes a day, you can pat yourself on the back for the accomplishment and go on.
But I think it makes a really big difference if you make writing part of your daily routine, and that doesn't always have to be book writing. If you're not feeling inspired to write a book. Page or chapter, write a journal entry or a poem or whatever. But just get into that routine. And I think what you'll find is on the days that you don't do it, you miss it.
That really helps. So just a few ideas for anybody who's feeling stuck about writing. Yeah, build up that. Build up that habit. Build up that, that need to express yourself. 'cause you're worth it. You're worth expressing yourself in these ideas and putting your voice out there in this way. Like sometimes I want to add to what you just said, Nanette, which is.
Sometimes people think, oh, you know, these guys kind of say what I say and these guys kind of say, what? Yeah, but they don't say it the way you say it. So it's like, just 'cause you might find other books, other voices out there that might be similar to yours. Don't let that suppress your, your need to express yourself to, to speak your voice.
Right. Your voice is worth being heard. I, I do mean that It's like, there will be people listening to this who'll have an opinion going, well, I don't know if I wanna hear their voice or, you know, stuff like this. But it's like, no, it, it, it's worth being heard, you know, if anything, just to learn something about that person, right?
And so, be willing to honor yourself and honor your voice and, you know, see where it takes you real quick. Nanette, I want to ask you, um. So some people might be like book camp. What is book camp like? Like what's the experience of it? Can you give us a little insight there? Absolutely. It's a 12 week program that is peer supported, combined with professional editing and consultative support for me on three chapters of your book and creating a rough table of contents and all of that.
So it's designed to get people into. A writing rhythm over a 12 week period that they can then use as information to go finish a manuscript. And it should be a lot of fun. This is a new initiative, so Nice. We'll, we'll, we'll see how it goes. I'm excited about it. And the main reason beyond what we had talked about earlier that I wanted to offer this is I wanted to create something that was more affordable for people.
Who were looking for professional support and also that included a peer support component. 'cause that is not something that I generally do. We cap it at six people, so it's an intimate group and over 12 weeks you will have cheerleaders and commiserate and everybody else along for the ride with you. Wow, excellent.
Now, how can they get ahold of you? Do, do they go to book conductors.com or, or tell, tell us. They do that and there's a whole, uh, new section on book camp on there. You can click through it from the homepage, both from the pull down menu, and there's also a block at the above the fold on the homepage.
People can email me at Nanette. That's N-A-N-E-T-T e@bookconductors.com. Nice. Any offers around this? Yeah, as I said, this is a new program, so anybody who wants to jump on, and I am not sure when we're gonna start, part of the application form includes some questions around what days and times work best for everybody.
So we're gonna figure out when we're gonna do it based on what is most comfortable for the people who jump in. So anybody who. Puts in an application and wind up participating in the adventure can get 30% off now through May 1st of the program. And just, just tell 'em Tim sent Well, yeah, just say, just let 'em know.
Um, let Annette know or whoever that you heard about it on, you know, the podcast, powerful and unpolished. Um, and. 30% off to have professional support, a, a cohesive, small, pure group that actually is, you know, invested as well. Um, there's, there's a ton of value in this experience and to bring your voice, to bring your message out into the world.
It's worth, it's worth honoring yourself in that experience. So, yeah, I, I'm really excited about it, Tim. I really am. And what part of what this includes is personal one-on-one time with me. Not only editing three chapters, but having one-on-one conversations about book challenges and issues and ideas moving forward.
So I think it'll be a lot of fun for everybody involved. I, I would encourage you that if this is something that you're seriously contemplating thinking about, definitely reach out to nanette@bookconductors.com or nanette@bookconductors.com. And, um, you know, it, it's, we're, we're putting out this exposure and, you know, let's see if we can get this filled up.
It may fill up relatively soon. I just saw yesterday that we've had over 50 different countries. Listen to this podcast, powerful and un polished. And I'm like going, wow, I didn't even didn't realize that. You know? And it, it may just be one person who clicked on it for a little bit. I have no idea. But, you know, somebody's out there at least intrigued enough to listen to it.
And you know, for those of you who are, um. We're, we're going into a new world and, and the new world is really kind of like step in, lean into your voice, put your voice out there, and, you know, see the kind of impact that you can create for yourself and, and your future moving forward. So, um, and your first book, your second book, it, it can be, uh, uh, it can be whatever you wanna make of it.
My mine became a seed. I didn't realize that's what I was doing when I actually wrote the book, but it became a seed to help others nurture and grow themselves, and which is quite honestly growing me, greater than I ever thought I would or could. So I want to thank you so much for being here today, Nanette.
Um, it is such a gift to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I really appreciate it and I'm super excited about this and can't thank you enough for helping me spread the little word a little bit about books. Yeah. Well, let me know. I mean, you know, if anybody else kind of steps in and, or you know, maybe it's not for you, but maybe it's someone that you're listening to, maybe you have a little brother or a little sister, or you know, your wife or your husband has, has been contemplating this.
It's like, you know, what a gift to give them something that, that. Helps to guide them through this whole process and, you know, get, get the minutia out of the way so that the message can come through. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. Very big deal. Um, I'm gonna say that again. It's a very big deal, believe me, but.
To all of our listeners, you are a blessing. Thank you for taking the time outta your day. We hope that this has enriched you. Um, if you like the show, please hit the, like, follow us, um, share it with a friend and just know that we here at Powerful and Unpolished and also Insights for Choice. It's really about working and connecting with individuals so that they.
They can stand in their power, not only the power of their intelligence, but the power of their emotional intelligence, the, the power of recognizing who they are in this world and what else can stand out for them as individuals and as a collective. Okay? So treat each other well while you're out there and until next time.
We wish you all the best. Have a wonderful week ahead of you. Take care.
Or hopefully real life, right? Different perspectives, different possibilities. So I have another very vi define divine, wonderful guest. I'm gonna say that clearly a divine, wonderful guest. Um, she's been a huge, uh, asset in my world. Great friend. Um, and a professional that I've worked with, which we're going to talk about today.
So, uh. Just real quick, we, our guest today is Nanette Levin and, uh, Nanette welcome. Hello. Welcome. You appreciate your having me. Nice. So to bring, uh, all of our listeners up to speed on who Nanette is, she's, she's been on a couple other episodes where we've bantered back and forth about, you know, just general ideas, but we're gonna focus on what Nanette is bringing to the table currently.
And, and I'm really excited that she's doing it because she is. Just powerful. And so this is who Nanette Levin. Nanette provides support for a wide variety of non-fiction, two non-fiction authors. She's a developmental editor, ghost writer, and strategic consultant who specializes in working with first and second time authors.
Since Nanette spent decades in the marketing industry, she also understands how to help clients create messages that resonate both in book content and in promotional material. And I have to attest to that because she's not only helped me. She was key in helping me write my book, but she was also key in helping me get it exposed even more.
Um, her style, her working style is interactive, compassionate, and forthright. Since the Net is a published author too, she recognizes the challenges that writers face. She founded book conductors as a publishing company in 2001, but after putting out a dozen titles, decided to shift to providing author support services.
Most recently, she's created book camp. So this book camp is a 12 week interactive program that helps provide, uh, an organized, fun, expert driven, customized, uh, and peer populated experience for first and second time nonfiction authors. That's, that's a lot to say. Welcome, Nette. Thank you very much. Sorry for the mouthful.
Oh yeah. It's great. Um, and. The, the, the book camp And, and I'm just gonna jump off real quick. For me personally, Nanette is the editor of my book. Nanette is, she was my partner in crime. We worked really diligent and hard for what, about a year, bringing that to life and, and really bringing my voice out. Um, I, I had the voice, but she actually helped me.
Bring volume to it, bring echo, bring you know, passion and compassion to it. So it's been really good in that sense. But I wanna jump off on this book camp. And for those who are out there thinking of writing a book, who have a book in them that, like myself, that keeps wanting to come out but never saw themselves as a writer.
Um, but now is really entertaining because the message is really, you know, echoing in them. For any of those who are writing their first book, thinking about writing their first book, potentially writing a second book. Why did you create. Book at this time? Well, I've created it for a number of reasons, but I guess probably the primary one was that the way a lot of editors typically work, and that's not always the way that I work, but the process tends to be to bring an editor in after the book is completed.
And I'm finding more and more. And I work with a lot of really great people, C-suite executives, people who are doing incredible memoirs, business people who have decades of experience. They figure things out very easily. But if the editing process starts after the book is written, it takes a lot more time to do the revisions and to ensure that the book.
Resonates with the intended audience and to get it organized in a way that makes sense to the reader because generally a reader is not at the point in their journey that the writer is so, might have been the writer five years ago, or last year, or 10 years ago, but not the writer today. And it can be very difficult, particularly for first and second time authors to put themselves.
In the reader's shoes when they start writing a book in the shoe. So this is designed to get professional support and peer support into the mix right from the onset before the author dives deep into the manuscript so that it drives the rest of the book writing process. Makes it a lot simpler, a lot more fun.
And sets up a strategy for the content that works. That's what, that's the big reason, that's the big reason why you did the book camp. Okay. Um, so I love this 'cause we're gonna banter back and forth and as it goes off, uh, so this is one thing that I love about what you do and I, I, having experienced it firsthand and seeing other people who are writers, um, I'm just gonna say this clearly.
Folks, just from my own personal experience, writers have a tendency to love what they say. They have a tendency to love their messaging, and I don't know, you correct me if I'm wrong, Nanette, but there's a lot of times where just because you're in love with it doesn't mean that the reader's going to be, and to have somebody who actually can give you a, a balanced, clear vision while still honoring your message.
What are your thoughts there? Because I, I, I've seen some other writers and they have published books and they're so in love with, you know, what it means and validating them and stuff like that. And it's like going, but what about the reader? I agree. It, it, it's always a challenge for people who are not accustomed to doing it, to write from the reader's perspective, but what should develop an understanding of how to do that?
It's relatively easy so. Yes, there is always tangent, tangential information in a book that probably needs to go, and every author faces that. I certainly have. I had three editors on my first book, and having that objective perspective is huge. But I think the other side of it is tend to write from their own perspective, and that's not always the best way.
To organize and construct a book that is intended for other people, readers, the writer that's out there that's listening to this right now, maybe your message is important and it, you know, it's just make sure you don't love it so much that you get in the way of the message, right? I mean, allow it to breathe, allow it to grow, allow it to, to flourish.
And having someone who, 'cause Let me ask you this, Nana with um. You know, we, we live in a world now, especially with AI and all this kind of stuff. There's a lot of illusionary, oh, I wrote this book, and it's like going, uh, you put a couple, you know, prompts into the computer, doesn't mean you wrote the book, you know, the, the, the computer wrote the book.
But for those who are actually out there exercising their, their, their skills, what are you noticing with, with the people who are, are truly engaged in the writing process? Well, it definitely, writing a book definitely changes you, the introspection that you go through, the process of putting your thoughts to paper, reorienting your perspectives to make what you're trying to share, easier to digest for others, transforms.
Who do you become as a result of writing the book at? At least to my mind, when it's done right. Being able to say you're a published author may be a credential, but going through the process of creating a book that is really useful to other people, and that's not to say that you change your message, but changing the way you express it.
Can mean the difference between people embracing what you have to say and scratching their heads. You just shared that and it really reminded me. Um, so about a month ago, I, I donate platelets for cancer patients. So I've been doing that for years and um, it's one of those things where, uh, when I published my book, when we got done and we published it and launched it, uh, one of the, um, phlebotomists there.
Purchased the book, then she purchased the audio book. Well, about a month ago I went in and I hadn't been back for like six months and I went in and I saw her. And it wasn't the fact, you know, being a published author that that's bestselling, right. Um, that wasn't what excited me. It was the fact that when we were sitting there having a discussion, she was teaching me about my book, about what was in the book.
And I was like, I said that I did, you know, that was in there. That, you know, and, and because it's coming from her perspective, what she learned, what her filters were, what, where she was at her time. Like you talked about, you know, the writers at a different time and the readers are at different times and, and those are, those are key elements that sometimes are forgot.
And having that. Experience. It was a blessing and it also floored me 'cause I was just like, wow, you know, to have someone teach you the material that they got. And it, it helped me learn more about what I had actually worked on and had created. Um, but let's get back to, so we're talking about, I, I just wanna interject that is tremendous.
That is really exciting. It is so wonderful to get that kind of feedback and when people actually. Try to teach, they learn more. So the fact that your book is prompting people to do that is fantastic. Thank you. It was, yeah, when she was like, she even came back, I mean, we, you know, we had a discussion for about 20, 30 minutes, and then before I left, she came back specifically to acknowledge that I shared vulnerability at the beginning of the book about what I had gone through too.
You know, come into the understanding that I was working with and I was like going, wow, you know, this is somebody who, maybe she knows my book, she read the introduction. She may know my book better than I know my book. Right. That kind of thing. But, but it, you know, it's, for me, that's, that's the magic. It's not the fact of I have a book and I can market or promote a book.
It's the fact that I have something that can mean something or help or support someone else. Right. In that experience though, thinking about the first time someone who's thinking about being a first time or wanting to be a first time or working and are a first time on their first book and or second book, what do you see as like the biggest issue that these authors face?
Depends on the author. It really does, but I think that everyone faces writer's block, and when you're a first time author, that can be more discouraging. Than at other times. So I think that is an issue. I think that some people really struggle with what to write about. They've had so many experiences in their lives and they have such a vast degree of knowledge about a variety of things that it can be hard to decide what to pick.
And that applies to business, books, leadership books, as much as it does to memoirs and how-tos. Well, and it's, it's, you know, the seeds of the book that actually, usually I'm coming from my own experience. So the, the seeds that I had that spurred me on, you know, like I said, this, this book bugged me for like eight or nine years.
I was like, yeah, yeah, good idea. Great. Wow. This, so finally then, once I dug into it, and then we, you know, our paths were connected. Um, but I had these like key elements that just kept eating at me and inspiring me and all this. And where I thought they would be in the book actually was at a different spot once we actually got to, because where I, uh, initially had it positioned was, you know, if you're gonna dump all of your value, like, or I've heard it sp spill all of your value, all your candy in the lobby.
Then when you get into the main suite, you have very little to work with. Right. And so it's, it's not even just having the good ideas, it's how is it structurally connecting from a storytelling, engaging sort of awareness? Right. And I will say almost every book I edit gets substantially. We organize after the initial manuscript rough draft, because.
It's editing is a different process than write it, and once you get the ideas down and you start looking at it from the perspective of the reader, oftentimes it's necessary. To change the way you're presenting material so that it's easier for the reader to understand and digest and follow. I'm just gonna add this, there was so much, I almost have to laugh at myself on this one.
There was so much that I didn't know, you know, like, like when you come back to me and it'd be like going, alright, what format, what font, what you know, what structure here? And I was like. Hell, I don't know. I didn't even, you know, to me a book was a book was a book. You know, I, I, I, I wasn't a person that didn't aspired to be an author.
I'm sort of the accidental author, right? And, but for those who are aspiring or are accidental, um, there's a lot more awareness that goes into this, this thing called the book that, uh. It's not just slap your picture on it. And I mean, and you can do that too. I mean, nowadays you can, you can, there's so many areas on the, on the spectrum that it can get done.
But if you are doing this, if you're this kind of writer, a. Potential writer who really wants to express themselves, realize there's a lot that goes into the layering, the formatting, the, the, the font, the so much. So I'll just throw that out there. Well, and, and I think you are referring more relative to our conversations about the organization of the book.
Yes. And there are a lot of different ways to organize a book, whether you have divided it into sections, uh, obviously you have chapters, but. Depending on the book and the message and who you're trying to reach. There are a lot of different ways that you can organize and present the information to make it clearer.
Yeah. Well, and one of the things just for let people who are listening, uh, so for me, um, I had a number of quotes in my book. I had a number of idea of quotes that were in my book. I didn't know all the laws and restrictions and regulations, and you're throwing this stuff out there like, well, it's this and it's enough course of that.
And I'm like, when That's not enough course. In my world, I didn't even know that existed. Right? Like, well, copyright is an issue when you put something to print. You know, I think people have gotten really casual about using other people's work. With the proliferation of online sharing and everything else, but once you put it into a printed book format, that can change things substantially.
It's not to say that copyright is right in other circumstances, but the potential costs of copyright infringement once you print a quantity of books can be substantial. Well, they, um, no, I was working with you and I, we were also, I was also, I. Diana had actually introduced me to you and Diana Needham, and she was exceptional one for introducing me to you.
'cause when I first met you. All right. Full disclosure. Um, when we first met, I was on the fence. I was like going, I don't need another person to work with on this book. I mean, I, you know, it's, it's, it was one of those things, like, I had been working on the book for a while and, um. But I was also spinning my wheels, right?
And I wasn't sure, I was like going, you know, is this worth what I, what I'm here to do? And so, uh, you know, the first meeting I was kind of like still stuck in my, uh, process. Why do I need this person? What do I need this person who, what are they gonna do for me, this stranger across on the other side of the country from me and all this kind of stuff.
Then by the second meeting, I mean, we just clicked and gelled and we started, I mean, I worked you out pretty good. I mean, we, we were, we were going through content pretty extreme. Wouldn't, wouldn't you say so? 'cause I mean, you, you were hitting the wall a little bit there. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of your question.
No, I was just saying that no. It was more of an acknowledgement that when, when we first started working together and it clicked for me and we, I started giving you a lot of material. You were really eating it up. I mean, the, how, how invested you were in my message and what I was doing was so, um, invigorating and powerful.
But it also had tested you. I mean, it was luckily, you know, you had a little bit more. Space and time at that time to work with. But I remember it was that, and I was like, so how was that for you? I mean, do you remember that process? I, I do remember that. And we shifted how we were gonna handle the editing.
After we spent a little bit of time spending more time than we needed to. How's that? Yeah. Like we were, we realized a be there was a better way than, you know, but it worked great. I mean, you know, I really, I, I will say, I, I really enjoyed your message and your style and your vulnerability, and your ideas and your perspectives.
It was a wonderful book project to work on. Thank you. Thank you. It was, um, but I didn't even know, I mean, Diana had also, um, and, and for some reason, you know, you, I, you have those like fuzzy moments. I ended up, uh, submitting the book to the national library, uh, what's it called? Uh, library of Congress.
That's what it was. And that was never on my radar. And it was like, oh, once we get this and we, we submit it. So it's like to have, you know, it wasn't just the fact that, hey, we got a bestseller, you know, book. It was like, wow, it's in the library of Congress. That's we, we went, we went all the way, we went all the way to Jordan and got it done.
You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, there, there are a lot of logistics to the back end of the shit. Yeah. And, and when, you know, being a very first time writer, again, this was never on the landscape for me. And to have someone guide me and, and coach me and nurture me and, and do the editing and, you know, even, even after the book, I mean, we, you know, have worked together so well, um, since then.
And that's why I keep having you back on the podcast 'cause. You know, what you bring is the value you bring is multi-layered, multi um, experiential. Thank you. And back at you. Thank you. So what are some tips that you have for wannabe authors or, or people who are, are seriously considering it, not just the, you know, the weekend warrior typewriters, but someone who's like, you know what?
I, I have a message that, that I'm really thinking about putting out there. What are some tips you have for them? I guess, and, and I, I will admit, I do have a bias here. Getting some objective perspective early in the process is a good idea. And I will say there are some authors that I just meet with for an hour or two and it, before they start.
Writing the book in earnest and it totally transforms the book that they ultimately produce. You are so close to the subject matter. It's really hard to see things that someone else, particularly someone that is familiar with the industry, can see and help you see. And the longer I do this, the more convinced I am that.
Early help is so much better for everyone involved than waiting until you complete a final wealth draft, and that doesn't need to be compensated help. It could be a peer group, but the challenge with peer groups is ensuring that people who are participating understand industry precepts and understand your audience and all of those things.
A lot of times with peer groups. Once people have successfully published, they leave. So you have a lot of people who are at the same place in the journey and everybody has an opinion about everything, particularly these days. So that is not always the best feedback to get. There are workshops, there are classes, there are professionals like myself who come in and provide consultative support or beyond, but I think.
It makes sense before you dive too deep to have a conversation with someone about where you wanna go with the book and gain some of their insight as to what might help make the book more successful. I'm gonna raise part of this dynamic for those potentially who are listening, you know, who are writing a book, wanna write a book, that kind of thing.
So let's say you are a first time writer or second time writer, and you, uh. You've been plugging away and you have your full manuscript. Okay, fine. That's great. The big question for you, I, I would say is are you open to real feedback around it? If there's adjustment, if there's something else, because again, it goes back to one of our earlier statements, my earlier statement, which is we have a tendency to fall in love with our own work and we get married to it.
And just 'cause you think it's a good message doesn't necessarily mean it's landing the way you think it should. The good thing that I find, the good and bad right there. There's, there's pitfalls here. Um, getting information from a peer group can be very helpful and powerful. It can also be frustrating and detrimental because sometimes people in the peer group get married or attached to their idea about your work, and so it's really.
Why I encourage and you know, was excited about having Nanette on the show today is when you work with a professional who can give you feedback and not be attached or, um. I'd say attached is probably the best way, be attached to the idea of your work. Like, like to, to work with someone who holds objectivity, you know, and can sit there and say, what is your messaging?
What is it that, you know, what do you want this book to do? Not only for the reader, but for the author, for the book itself. You know, there, there's a lot of perspectives to consider. And, you know, like any other editors out there, I mean, I've crossed paths with others editors, um, who I don't feel as confident in.
I mean, they don't, they don't seem to hold onto the same objectivity that, you know, 'cause ultimately all of the decisions that Nanette helped me with. It was still my choice. It was my decision. It wasn't, you know, she didn't like, well, if you do it like this, it's gonna fail, or there was never any of that.
It was, there was just clear information so that I had an informed, an informed process or an informed perspective about the process that helped me to make more. Effective decisions, I guess is the way to say it. Um, as I'm babbling on here, Nanette, what, what are your thoughts around someone who comes to you with a full manuscript and you sit down to see if you're a fit, which is, is always the, the optimal move, right?
But when you sit down to see if you're a fit, are you more engaging with them to see if they're workable or. Are you focused on the manuscript itself and the, the messaging there? What are your thoughts? Both? It's both and it goes both ways. You know, I am a firm believer that all parties should feel wonderful about the interactions, and sometimes you have personalities that don't necessarily work well together, and sometimes the content isn't.
Necessarily, you know, I, I maintain a fairly narrow focus in what I do, and I am quick and happy to refer people to other excellent providers if I don't feel that I'm the best one for the jobs, and that includes fiction. I don't do fiction at all, so I have people that I have sought out and assessed. That I can refer others to if I don't feel that it's an ideal fit.
You know, getting back to your comment, 'cause you've said this twice, so I wanted to revisit this about cutting material out of the book. That's not something that always happens, but it is very common for material to be rearranged or repurposed. I mean, if something doesn't fit in a book, you can almost always find another way to use that content, either as part of a promotional.
Message or as a blog post, or a newsletter or social media stuff. So it, it's never gone. It's never wasted time. I mean, not, and, and going back to what I said before, I mean, you know, the writing experience is worthwhile. Whether it winds up between the covers of a printed book or not. But that said, yes, definitely fit is important.
And I always get concerned. I hire a lot of vendors myself, and I get concerned when people seem too hungry. Oh, I could do that. I could do that, and I could do that. I think that the best providers that you could engage are people who are very clear about where they excel and what kind of personalities they work well with.
And are Okay. Offering other options to get something done. So what are your thoughts around, um, and I don't know. I mean, there we're, we're talking about things that are available on the spectrum, right? I am, I I talk about the spectrum all the time. 'cause it's, it's a big element that I use in my book, right?
Because everything's on the spectrum. You know, we, we talk about people, oh, these people are on the spectrum. Everybody's on the spectrum there. You just may be talking about a specific segment of the spectrum, but the truth is, is we're all there in some form, some fashion, some way we're all, you know, 'cause it's there.
There's many different options. There's many different perspectives in which to connect and choose from. So thinking about the spectrum aspect, so let's say somebody is a first time writer. And it all depends on why they're writing the book, right? I mean, why? Why it becomes a big thing, not only in the messaging of the book, but you know, what is your intent with the book after the book is written, after it's done?
When you talk about marketing, let's say you get the book done, what are like a couple tips that are key elements for a new author to consider when it goes into the marketing of the book afterwards? Sure, and, and I do wanna qualify what I'm gonna say with, I stay in my lane and my lane right now is developmental editing, consultative book support and ghostwriting.
So I refer people out to others for the marketing aspects of the book. But that said, some really critical marketing things to pay attention to. The back cover of the book. That is often, and I, you know, I haven't checked the statistics lately, but it used to be the second place people went when they were checking out a book after they looked at the cover.
I think that you wanna be able to have sound bites around the book, so you wanna be able to explain what it is in a sentence, and that gets used all over the place, whether it's social media, whether you're doing radio, whether you're on a television show. Whatever it is, there's on your website, all of that and more These days, your promotion is about your reach, and that includes whether you decide to self-publish or do a hybrid publishing deal or go with the traditional publisher, you're gonna be responsible for promoting your book.
It is a rare situation unless you're an Obama or someone. Where a traditional publishing house is gonna put a lot of money into promoting your title, so that falls on you. So along those lines, I would encourage anybody who is thinking about doing a book launch to start to groom and grow their online audience, whether that's wherever it is, everybody has a place that they're most comfortable with.
It might be LinkedIn, it might be Facebook. Believe it or not, the horse titles that I do market best on Pinterest, and I'm not marketing the title directly, but for example, one thing that I did is I did a series of 50 young horse training tips and I put them on a common graphic and put 'em out there with my website address on it, and that still drives book sales.
And I don't even say I have a book with them, but people pass them around. So you'd be surprised where the best online place might be. You know, might be Instagram. It just depends. But I think it behooves any author who's thinking, any first time author who's thinking about putting a book out there to start considering where they can best engage with their audience online and to build that up.
Nice. Thank you for that. Um, so I'm gonna take you on a little left turn here because this is powerful and unpolished and a lot of times, most times, almost all the time on powerful and unpolished, uh, we talk about the professionals, the people, the leaders that we have on the show, and we talk about what, you know, what they're doing, what they're working on, what they do for a living, stuff like this.
But ultimately it's about who they are. And you just talked about. The horses, the, the horse tips and stuff like this. So, uh, share with our listeners here a little bit. Tell us about a little bit about your back horse history. Well, for, for about 20 years, I ran 117 acre farm. Upstate New York, and when I say upstate New York, I'm talking western New York, not the suburbs of New York City.
I was about an hour south of Rochester in a little town called and did a lot of horse training there, primarily young horse training. And we also bred Irish draft sport courses. So that, that's, that's kind of my recreation slash hobbies slash. Half of my income generator for 20 years of my life. Wow. So I, I knew you had that extensive history, but it, it really, I'm gonna tie it in here.
So for those of you who are thinking about maybe joining the bootcamp, the, the, the book camp or, uh, looking into it, um. I bring up Annette's background because there's a lot of work around equine therapy and equine work, and I would say that with the wisdom that this young lady has, that she has been working with the horses, I mean, and horses are, you know, I, I don't know, Nanette, you have your own version, but my perspective of horses is they, they are divine creatures.
They are, you know, um, there, there's so much wisdom and, and. Insight that these characters have, that to be able to work with them consistently and the different breeds and and things like that, to then turn around and be able to work with human beings. You know, that's really good. I mean, she, I would, I would say there were maybe a couple times where I was probably starting to head off the path because of my certain ideas and, you know, she just kind of had a conversation with me and redirected me back to, oh, this is what I'm here to achieve.
This is what I'm focused on. Don't go get lost in the weeds. And so, um, you know, maybe your book writing experience might be similar to mine, where, you know. She, she's your editor. But the truth is, is she's kind of like your, your equine coach or equine, you know, she's guy, she's guiding me like a big horse.
Let's just say that. I was more of a draft horse. Well, I, I might work better with horses than people too. She's probably still out on that one. I was gonna say, yeah, nowadays you might, you might enjoy working with horses better than people, but, um. I enjoy working with people. You know, it's funny, I'm at a point in my career now where I can be a little choosy about the clients that I decide to work with, and because of that I absolutely relish all of the clients that I work with.
And if that's not happening, I refer them to somebody more appropriate. So it's, it's a nice place to be. That's why I do this podcast, to be honest with you. I meet so many different people. I, I, I do dig people. I mean, I, I really, uh, when you have individuals who show up in their spirit, show up in their, their, their unique presence, um, and they're sharing that with the world.
I think you should be honored. Um, that's one reason why I created the show. It's one reason, part of the messaging that I have in my book, that I have in my business that I work with, my, my personal clients, my private clients, and the trains that we do, is all about honoring the individual. Not just their ideas, but the heart, the soul, the essence, the energy that they bring to the experience that, that is the human experience.
I mean. You know, if we were all just our ideas, that'd be a pretty empty existence. But when we actually start to connect, you know, our head to our heart and, and, and our whole being, our soulness about it, it makes things magic. I mean, it's one reason, go, go back through the history of time, and this goes with those writers that are out there.
Human beings from the beginning of time have been storytellers. Oratory. I mean, we, we share our, our history, not only public history, but our personal, our individual history. It's, it's what we do to connect ourselves to our path, to our purpose in this world, and to be able to, you know, if you have a, a message in you that is really working to come out.
You know, give yourself a fighting chance and, and find a professional out there. You know, maybe reach out to Nanette and, you know, check out this experience and see what it does for you. Or, you know, get a reference to someone else that you know, but, but do something with it. Don't let that, um, I've heard this a lot lately.
Don't let that song die within you. Don't let it, don't let it expire because you never got around to doing it. Well, and along those lines, Tim, you had asked me earlier about some tips for first time authors, and one of the tips that I would have is don't take writer's block at face value. Don't, don't accept writer's block as a given.
There are so many easy ways to get around that, and so some of the things that I would suggest is if you're having trouble getting your thoughts out, start the day before. If you're doing some writing, give yourself a prompt as you finish up the day so that you can dive right into the next step. If you're not.
Feeling excited and motivated by what you're writing about, write about something else. You do not have to complete a book in order. You can jump to something that you're feeling really passionate about at the moment. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it's not an essay you need to submit to your professor the next day, right?
It's R, right, because it means something to you. I would suggest is that you get into a writing routine and that can be 10 or 15 minutes a day. It doesn't have to be long. If you want it to go longer after you've done your 10 or 15 minutes a day, you can pat yourself on the back for the accomplishment and go on.
But I think it makes a really big difference if you make writing part of your daily routine, and that doesn't always have to be book writing. If you're not feeling inspired to write a book. Page or chapter, write a journal entry or a poem or whatever. But just get into that routine. And I think what you'll find is on the days that you don't do it, you miss it.
That really helps. So just a few ideas for anybody who's feeling stuck about writing. Yeah, build up that. Build up that habit. Build up that, that need to express yourself. 'cause you're worth it. You're worth expressing yourself in these ideas and putting your voice out there in this way. Like sometimes I want to add to what you just said, Nanette, which is.
Sometimes people think, oh, you know, these guys kind of say what I say and these guys kind of say, what? Yeah, but they don't say it the way you say it. So it's like, just 'cause you might find other books, other voices out there that might be similar to yours. Don't let that suppress your, your need to express yourself to, to speak your voice.
Right. Your voice is worth being heard. I, I do mean that It's like, there will be people listening to this who'll have an opinion going, well, I don't know if I wanna hear their voice or, you know, stuff like this. But it's like, no, it, it, it's worth being heard, you know, if anything, just to learn something about that person, right?
And so, be willing to honor yourself and honor your voice and, you know, see where it takes you real quick. Nanette, I want to ask you, um. So some people might be like book camp. What is book camp like? Like what's the experience of it? Can you give us a little insight there? Absolutely. It's a 12 week program that is peer supported, combined with professional editing and consultative support for me on three chapters of your book and creating a rough table of contents and all of that.
So it's designed to get people into. A writing rhythm over a 12 week period that they can then use as information to go finish a manuscript. And it should be a lot of fun. This is a new initiative, so Nice. We'll, we'll, we'll see how it goes. I'm excited about it. And the main reason beyond what we had talked about earlier that I wanted to offer this is I wanted to create something that was more affordable for people.
Who were looking for professional support and also that included a peer support component. 'cause that is not something that I generally do. We cap it at six people, so it's an intimate group and over 12 weeks you will have cheerleaders and commiserate and everybody else along for the ride with you. Wow, excellent.
Now, how can they get ahold of you? Do, do they go to book conductors.com or, or tell, tell us. They do that and there's a whole, uh, new section on book camp on there. You can click through it from the homepage, both from the pull down menu, and there's also a block at the above the fold on the homepage.
People can email me at Nanette. That's N-A-N-E-T-T e@bookconductors.com. Nice. Any offers around this? Yeah, as I said, this is a new program, so anybody who wants to jump on, and I am not sure when we're gonna start, part of the application form includes some questions around what days and times work best for everybody.
So we're gonna figure out when we're gonna do it based on what is most comfortable for the people who jump in. So anybody who. Puts in an application and wind up participating in the adventure can get 30% off now through May 1st of the program. And just, just tell 'em Tim sent Well, yeah, just say, just let 'em know.
Um, let Annette know or whoever that you heard about it on, you know, the podcast, powerful and unpolished. Um, and. 30% off to have professional support, a, a cohesive, small, pure group that actually is, you know, invested as well. Um, there's, there's a ton of value in this experience and to bring your voice, to bring your message out into the world.
It's worth, it's worth honoring yourself in that experience. So, yeah, I, I'm really excited about it, Tim. I really am. And what part of what this includes is personal one-on-one time with me. Not only editing three chapters, but having one-on-one conversations about book challenges and issues and ideas moving forward.
So I think it'll be a lot of fun for everybody involved. I, I would encourage you that if this is something that you're seriously contemplating thinking about, definitely reach out to nanette@bookconductors.com or nanette@bookconductors.com. And, um, you know, it, it's, we're, we're putting out this exposure and, you know, let's see if we can get this filled up.
It may fill up relatively soon. I just saw yesterday that we've had over 50 different countries. Listen to this podcast, powerful and un polished. And I'm like going, wow, I didn't even didn't realize that. You know? And it, it may just be one person who clicked on it for a little bit. I have no idea. But, you know, somebody's out there at least intrigued enough to listen to it.
And you know, for those of you who are, um. We're, we're going into a new world and, and the new world is really kind of like step in, lean into your voice, put your voice out there, and, you know, see the kind of impact that you can create for yourself and, and your future moving forward. So, um, and your first book, your second book, it, it can be, uh, uh, it can be whatever you wanna make of it.
My mine became a seed. I didn't realize that's what I was doing when I actually wrote the book, but it became a seed to help others nurture and grow themselves, and which is quite honestly growing me, greater than I ever thought I would or could. So I want to thank you so much for being here today, Nanette.
Um, it is such a gift to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I really appreciate it and I'm super excited about this and can't thank you enough for helping me spread the little word a little bit about books. Yeah. Well, let me know. I mean, you know, if anybody else kind of steps in and, or you know, maybe it's not for you, but maybe it's someone that you're listening to, maybe you have a little brother or a little sister, or you know, your wife or your husband has, has been contemplating this.
It's like, you know, what a gift to give them something that, that. Helps to guide them through this whole process and, you know, get, get the minutia out of the way so that the message can come through. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. Very big deal. Um, I'm gonna say that again. It's a very big deal, believe me, but.
To all of our listeners, you are a blessing. Thank you for taking the time outta your day. We hope that this has enriched you. Um, if you like the show, please hit the, like, follow us, um, share it with a friend and just know that we here at Powerful and Unpolished and also Insights for Choice. It's really about working and connecting with individuals so that they.
They can stand in their power, not only the power of their intelligence, but the power of their emotional intelligence, the, the power of recognizing who they are in this world and what else can stand out for them as individuals and as a collective. Okay? So treat each other well while you're out there and until next time.
We wish you all the best. Have a wonderful week ahead of you. Take care. Thank you for joining us today. If you've resonated with any of the stories or insights shared on this episode, please give us a like and remember to hit that subscribe button. Your support means the world to us, so feel free to share your thoughts using the hashtag hashtag powerful and unpolished podcast.
Until next time, make sure you stay powerful and stay unpolished.
You ever wonder why success doesn't always equal fulfillment? I'm Tim Solomons, and with 30 years experience as a corporate trainer with a career spanning blue collar to corporate, to public service industries, I've seen and experienced the human condition at its best and worst. Here on powerful and unpolished, we will explore the everyday traps draining our energy and hindering fulfillment.
This isn't just another success podcast. It's about breaking free from patterns that hold you back and limit your potential. Join me on this transformative journey as we explore and identify limiting traps detached from draining patterns, and rediscover the power within creating a life that is truly powerful and unpolished.
Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful and Unpolished. As you know, I'm Tim Solomons. I say that every day, every day, every week. So, um, thank you very much for those who are coming back and for those who are discovering us for the first time. It's a pleasure having you. You are welcome. And we just kinda really play with ideas and, and pull things apart here and see how it relates to everyday real life.
Or hopefully real life, right? Different perspectives, different possibilities. So I have another very vi define divine, wonderful guest. I'm gonna say that clearly a divine, wonderful guest. Um, she's been a huge, uh, asset in my world. Great friend. Um, and a professional that I've worked with, which we're going to talk about today.
So, uh. Just real quick, we, our guest today is Nanette Levin and, uh, Nanette welcome. Hello. Welcome. You appreciate your having me. Nice. So to bring, uh, all of our listeners up to speed on who Nanette is, she's, she's been on a couple other episodes where we've bantered back and forth about, you know, just general ideas, but we're gonna focus on what Nanette is bringing to the table currently.
And, and I'm really excited that she's doing it because she is. Just powerful. And so this is who Nanette Levin. Nanette provides support for a wide variety of non-fiction, two non-fiction authors. She's a developmental editor, ghost writer, and strategic consultant who specializes in working with first and second time authors.
Since Nanette spent decades in the marketing industry, she also understands how to help clients create messages that resonate both in book content and in promotional material. And I have to attest to that because she's not only helped me. She was key in helping me write my book, but she was also key in helping me get it exposed even more.
Um, her style, her working style is interactive, compassionate, and forthright. Since the Net is a published author too, she recognizes the challenges that writers face. She founded book conductors as a publishing company in 2001, but after putting out a dozen titles, decided to shift to providing author support services.
Most recently, she's created book camp. So this book camp is a 12 week interactive program that helps provide, uh, an organized, fun, expert driven, customized, uh, and peer populated experience for first and second time nonfiction authors. That's, that's a lot to say. Welcome, Nette. Thank you very much. Sorry for the mouthful.
Oh yeah. It's great. Um, and. The, the, the book camp And, and I'm just gonna jump off real quick. For me personally, Nanette is the editor of my book. Nanette is, she was my partner in crime. We worked really diligent and hard for what, about a year, bringing that to life and, and really bringing my voice out. Um, I, I had the voice, but she actually helped me.
Bring volume to it, bring echo, bring you know, passion and compassion to it. So it's been really good in that sense. But I wanna jump off on this book camp. And for those who are out there thinking of writing a book, who have a book in them that, like myself, that keeps wanting to come out but never saw themselves as a writer.
Um, but now is really entertaining because the message is really, you know, echoing in them. For any of those who are writing their first book, thinking about writing their first book, potentially writing a second book. Why did you create. Book at this time? Well, I've created it for a number of reasons, but I guess probably the primary one was that the way a lot of editors typically work, and that's not always the way that I work, but the process tends to be to bring an editor in after the book is completed.
And I'm finding more and more. And I work with a lot of really great people, C-suite executives, people who are doing incredible memoirs, business people who have decades of experience. They figure things out very easily. But if the editing process starts after the book is written, it takes a lot more time to do the revisions and to ensure that the book.
Resonates with the intended audience and to get it organized in a way that makes sense to the reader because generally a reader is not at the point in their journey that the writer is so, might have been the writer five years ago, or last year, or 10 years ago, but not the writer today. And it can be very difficult, particularly for first and second time authors to put themselves.
In the reader's shoes when they start writing a book in the shoe. So this is designed to get professional support and peer support into the mix right from the onset before the author dives deep into the manuscript so that it drives the rest of the book writing process. Makes it a lot simpler, a lot more fun.
And sets up a strategy for the content that works. That's what, that's the big reason, that's the big reason why you did the book camp. Okay. Um, so I love this 'cause we're gonna banter back and forth and as it goes off, uh, so this is one thing that I love about what you do and I, I, having experienced it firsthand and seeing other people who are writers, um, I'm just gonna say this clearly.
Folks, just from my own personal experience, writers have a tendency to love what they say. They have a tendency to love their messaging, and I don't know, you correct me if I'm wrong, Nanette, but there's a lot of times where just because you're in love with it doesn't mean that the reader's going to be, and to have somebody who actually can give you a, a balanced, clear vision while still honoring your message.
What are your thoughts there? Because I, I, I've seen some other writers and they have published books and they're so in love with, you know, what it means and validating them and stuff like that. And it's like going, but what about the reader? I agree. It, it, it's always a challenge for people who are not accustomed to doing it, to write from the reader's perspective, but what should develop an understanding of how to do that?
It's relatively easy so. Yes, there is always tangent, tangential information in a book that probably needs to go, and every author faces that. I certainly have. I had three editors on my first book, and having that objective perspective is huge. But I think the other side of it is tend to write from their own perspective, and that's not always the best way.
To organize and construct a book that is intended for other people, readers, the writer that's out there that's listening to this right now, maybe your message is important and it, you know, it's just make sure you don't love it so much that you get in the way of the message, right? I mean, allow it to breathe, allow it to grow, allow it to, to flourish.
And having someone who, 'cause Let me ask you this, Nana with um. You know, we, we live in a world now, especially with AI and all this kind of stuff. There's a lot of illusionary, oh, I wrote this book, and it's like going, uh, you put a couple, you know, prompts into the computer, doesn't mean you wrote the book, you know, the, the, the computer wrote the book.
But for those who are actually out there exercising their, their, their skills, what are you noticing with, with the people who are, are truly engaged in the writing process? Well, it definitely, writing a book definitely changes you, the introspection that you go through, the process of putting your thoughts to paper, reorienting your perspectives to make what you're trying to share, easier to digest for others, transforms.
Who do you become as a result of writing the book at? At least to my mind, when it's done right. Being able to say you're a published author may be a credential, but going through the process of creating a book that is really useful to other people, and that's not to say that you change your message, but changing the way you express it.
Can mean the difference between people embracing what you have to say and scratching their heads. You just shared that and it really reminded me. Um, so about a month ago, I, I donate platelets for cancer patients. So I've been doing that for years and um, it's one of those things where, uh, when I published my book, when we got done and we published it and launched it, uh, one of the, um, phlebotomists there.
Purchased the book, then she purchased the audio book. Well, about a month ago I went in and I hadn't been back for like six months and I went in and I saw her. And it wasn't the fact, you know, being a published author that that's bestselling, right. Um, that wasn't what excited me. It was the fact that when we were sitting there having a discussion, she was teaching me about my book, about what was in the book.
And I was like, I said that I did, you know, that was in there. That, you know, and, and because it's coming from her perspective, what she learned, what her filters were, what, where she was at her time. Like you talked about, you know, the writers at a different time and the readers are at different times and, and those are, those are key elements that sometimes are forgot.
And having that. Experience. It was a blessing and it also floored me 'cause I was just like, wow, you know, to have someone teach you the material that they got. And it, it helped me learn more about what I had actually worked on and had created. Um, but let's get back to, so we're talking about, I, I just wanna interject that is tremendous.
That is really exciting. It is so wonderful to get that kind of feedback and when people actually. Try to teach, they learn more. So the fact that your book is prompting people to do that is fantastic. Thank you. It was, yeah, when she was like, she even came back, I mean, we, you know, we had a discussion for about 20, 30 minutes, and then before I left, she came back specifically to acknowledge that I shared vulnerability at the beginning of the book about what I had gone through too.
You know, come into the understanding that I was working with and I was like going, wow, you know, this is somebody who, maybe she knows my book, she read the introduction. She may know my book better than I know my book. Right. That kind of thing. But, but it, you know, it's, for me, that's, that's the magic. It's not the fact of I have a book and I can market or promote a book.
It's the fact that I have something that can mean something or help or support someone else. Right. In that experience though, thinking about the first time someone who's thinking about being a first time or wanting to be a first time or working and are a first time on their first book and or second book, what do you see as like the biggest issue that these authors face?
Depends on the author. It really does, but I think that everyone faces writer's block, and when you're a first time author, that can be more discouraging. Than at other times. So I think that is an issue. I think that some people really struggle with what to write about. They've had so many experiences in their lives and they have such a vast degree of knowledge about a variety of things that it can be hard to decide what to pick.
And that applies to business, books, leadership books, as much as it does to memoirs and how-tos. Well, and it's, it's, you know, the seeds of the book that actually, usually I'm coming from my own experience. So the, the seeds that I had that spurred me on, you know, like I said, this, this book bugged me for like eight or nine years.
I was like, yeah, yeah, good idea. Great. Wow. This, so finally then, once I dug into it, and then we, you know, our paths were connected. Um, but I had these like key elements that just kept eating at me and inspiring me and all this. And where I thought they would be in the book actually was at a different spot once we actually got to, because where I, uh, initially had it positioned was, you know, if you're gonna dump all of your value, like, or I've heard it sp spill all of your value, all your candy in the lobby.
Then when you get into the main suite, you have very little to work with. Right. And so it's, it's not even just having the good ideas, it's how is it structurally connecting from a storytelling, engaging sort of awareness? Right. And I will say almost every book I edit gets substantially. We organize after the initial manuscript rough draft, because.
It's editing is a different process than write it, and once you get the ideas down and you start looking at it from the perspective of the reader, oftentimes it's necessary. To change the way you're presenting material so that it's easier for the reader to understand and digest and follow. I'm just gonna add this, there was so much, I almost have to laugh at myself on this one.
There was so much that I didn't know, you know, like, like when you come back to me and it'd be like going, alright, what format, what font, what you know, what structure here? And I was like. Hell, I don't know. I didn't even, you know, to me a book was a book was a book. You know, I, I, I, I wasn't a person that didn't aspired to be an author.
I'm sort of the accidental author, right? And, but for those who are aspiring or are accidental, um, there's a lot more awareness that goes into this, this thing called the book that, uh. It's not just slap your picture on it. And I mean, and you can do that too. I mean, nowadays you can, you can, there's so many areas on the, on the spectrum that it can get done.
But if you are doing this, if you're this kind of writer, a. Potential writer who really wants to express themselves, realize there's a lot that goes into the layering, the formatting, the, the, the font, the so much. So I'll just throw that out there. Well, and, and I think you are referring more relative to our conversations about the organization of the book.
Yes. And there are a lot of different ways to organize a book, whether you have divided it into sections, uh, obviously you have chapters, but. Depending on the book and the message and who you're trying to reach. There are a lot of different ways that you can organize and present the information to make it clearer.
Yeah. Well, and one of the things just for let people who are listening, uh, so for me, um, I had a number of quotes in my book. I had a number of idea of quotes that were in my book. I didn't know all the laws and restrictions and regulations, and you're throwing this stuff out there like, well, it's this and it's enough course of that.
And I'm like, when That's not enough course. In my world, I didn't even know that existed. Right? Like, well, copyright is an issue when you put something to print. You know, I think people have gotten really casual about using other people's work. With the proliferation of online sharing and everything else, but once you put it into a printed book format, that can change things substantially.
It's not to say that copyright is right in other circumstances, but the potential costs of copyright infringement once you print a quantity of books can be substantial. Well, they, um, no, I was working with you and I, we were also, I was also, I. Diana had actually introduced me to you and Diana Needham, and she was exceptional one for introducing me to you.
'cause when I first met you. All right. Full disclosure. Um, when we first met, I was on the fence. I was like going, I don't need another person to work with on this book. I mean, I, you know, it's, it's, it was one of those things, like, I had been working on the book for a while and, um. But I was also spinning my wheels, right?
And I wasn't sure, I was like going, you know, is this worth what I, what I'm here to do? And so, uh, you know, the first meeting I was kind of like still stuck in my, uh, process. Why do I need this person? What do I need this person who, what are they gonna do for me, this stranger across on the other side of the country from me and all this kind of stuff.
Then by the second meeting, I mean, we just clicked and gelled and we started, I mean, I worked you out pretty good. I mean, we, we were, we were going through content pretty extreme. Wouldn't, wouldn't you say so? 'cause I mean, you, you were hitting the wall a little bit there. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of your question.
No, I was just saying that no. It was more of an acknowledgement that when, when we first started working together and it clicked for me and we, I started giving you a lot of material. You were really eating it up. I mean, the, how, how invested you were in my message and what I was doing was so, um, invigorating and powerful.
But it also had tested you. I mean, it was luckily, you know, you had a little bit more. Space and time at that time to work with. But I remember it was that, and I was like, so how was that for you? I mean, do you remember that process? I, I do remember that. And we shifted how we were gonna handle the editing.
After we spent a little bit of time spending more time than we needed to. How's that? Yeah. Like we were, we realized a be there was a better way than, you know, but it worked great. I mean, you know, I really, I, I will say, I, I really enjoyed your message and your style and your vulnerability, and your ideas and your perspectives.
It was a wonderful book project to work on. Thank you. Thank you. It was, um, but I didn't even know, I mean, Diana had also, um, and, and for some reason, you know, you, I, you have those like fuzzy moments. I ended up, uh, submitting the book to the national library, uh, what's it called? Uh, library of Congress.
That's what it was. And that was never on my radar. And it was like, oh, once we get this and we, we submit it. So it's like to have, you know, it wasn't just the fact that, hey, we got a bestseller, you know, book. It was like, wow, it's in the library of Congress. That's we, we went, we went all the way, we went all the way to Jordan and got it done.
You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, there, there are a lot of logistics to the back end of the shit. Yeah. And, and when, you know, being a very first time writer, again, this was never on the landscape for me. And to have someone guide me and, and coach me and nurture me and, and do the editing and, you know, even, even after the book, I mean, we, you know, have worked together so well, um, since then.
And that's why I keep having you back on the podcast 'cause. You know, what you bring is the value you bring is multi-layered, multi um, experiential. Thank you. And back at you. Thank you. So what are some tips that you have for wannabe authors or, or people who are, are seriously considering it, not just the, you know, the weekend warrior typewriters, but someone who's like, you know what?
I, I have a message that, that I'm really thinking about putting out there. What are some tips you have for them? I guess, and, and I, I will admit, I do have a bias here. Getting some objective perspective early in the process is a good idea. And I will say there are some authors that I just meet with for an hour or two and it, before they start.
Writing the book in earnest and it totally transforms the book that they ultimately produce. You are so close to the subject matter. It's really hard to see things that someone else, particularly someone that is familiar with the industry, can see and help you see. And the longer I do this, the more convinced I am that.
Early help is so much better for everyone involved than waiting until you complete a final wealth draft, and that doesn't need to be compensated help. It could be a peer group, but the challenge with peer groups is ensuring that people who are participating understand industry precepts and understand your audience and all of those things.
A lot of times with peer groups. Once people have successfully published, they leave. So you have a lot of people who are at the same place in the journey and everybody has an opinion about everything, particularly these days. So that is not always the best feedback to get. There are workshops, there are classes, there are professionals like myself who come in and provide consultative support or beyond, but I think.
It makes sense before you dive too deep to have a conversation with someone about where you wanna go with the book and gain some of their insight as to what might help make the book more successful. I'm gonna raise part of this dynamic for those potentially who are listening, you know, who are writing a book, wanna write a book, that kind of thing.
So let's say you are a first time writer or second time writer, and you, uh. You've been plugging away and you have your full manuscript. Okay, fine. That's great. The big question for you, I, I would say is are you open to real feedback around it? If there's adjustment, if there's something else, because again, it goes back to one of our earlier statements, my earlier statement, which is we have a tendency to fall in love with our own work and we get married to it.
And just 'cause you think it's a good message doesn't necessarily mean it's landing the way you think it should. The good thing that I find, the good and bad right there. There's, there's pitfalls here. Um, getting information from a peer group can be very helpful and powerful. It can also be frustrating and detrimental because sometimes people in the peer group get married or attached to their idea about your work, and so it's really.
Why I encourage and you know, was excited about having Nanette on the show today is when you work with a professional who can give you feedback and not be attached or, um. I'd say attached is probably the best way, be attached to the idea of your work. Like, like to, to work with someone who holds objectivity, you know, and can sit there and say, what is your messaging?
What is it that, you know, what do you want this book to do? Not only for the reader, but for the author, for the book itself. You know, there, there's a lot of perspectives to consider. And, you know, like any other editors out there, I mean, I've crossed paths with others editors, um, who I don't feel as confident in.
I mean, they don't, they don't seem to hold onto the same objectivity that, you know, 'cause ultimately all of the decisions that Nanette helped me with. It was still my choice. It was my decision. It wasn't, you know, she didn't like, well, if you do it like this, it's gonna fail, or there was never any of that.
It was, there was just clear information so that I had an informed, an informed process or an informed perspective about the process that helped me to make more. Effective decisions, I guess is the way to say it. Um, as I'm babbling on here, Nanette, what, what are your thoughts around someone who comes to you with a full manuscript and you sit down to see if you're a fit, which is, is always the, the optimal move, right?
But when you sit down to see if you're a fit, are you more engaging with them to see if they're workable or. Are you focused on the manuscript itself and the, the messaging there? What are your thoughts? Both? It's both and it goes both ways. You know, I am a firm believer that all parties should feel wonderful about the interactions, and sometimes you have personalities that don't necessarily work well together, and sometimes the content isn't.
Necessarily, you know, I, I maintain a fairly narrow focus in what I do, and I am quick and happy to refer people to other excellent providers if I don't feel that I'm the best one for the jobs, and that includes fiction. I don't do fiction at all, so I have people that I have sought out and assessed. That I can refer others to if I don't feel that it's an ideal fit.
You know, getting back to your comment, 'cause you've said this twice, so I wanted to revisit this about cutting material out of the book. That's not something that always happens, but it is very common for material to be rearranged or repurposed. I mean, if something doesn't fit in a book, you can almost always find another way to use that content, either as part of a promotional.
Message or as a blog post, or a newsletter or social media stuff. So it, it's never gone. It's never wasted time. I mean, not, and, and going back to what I said before, I mean, you know, the writing experience is worthwhile. Whether it winds up between the covers of a printed book or not. But that said, yes, definitely fit is important.
And I always get concerned. I hire a lot of vendors myself, and I get concerned when people seem too hungry. Oh, I could do that. I could do that, and I could do that. I think that the best providers that you could engage are people who are very clear about where they excel and what kind of personalities they work well with.
And are Okay. Offering other options to get something done. So what are your thoughts around, um, and I don't know. I mean, there we're, we're talking about things that are available on the spectrum, right? I am, I I talk about the spectrum all the time. 'cause it's, it's a big element that I use in my book, right?
Because everything's on the spectrum. You know, we, we talk about people, oh, these people are on the spectrum. Everybody's on the spectrum there. You just may be talking about a specific segment of the spectrum, but the truth is, is we're all there in some form, some fashion, some way we're all, you know, 'cause it's there.
There's many different options. There's many different perspectives in which to connect and choose from. So thinking about the spectrum aspect, so let's say somebody is a first time writer. And it all depends on why they're writing the book, right? I mean, why? Why it becomes a big thing, not only in the messaging of the book, but you know, what is your intent with the book after the book is written, after it's done?
When you talk about marketing, let's say you get the book done, what are like a couple tips that are key elements for a new author to consider when it goes into the marketing of the book afterwards? Sure, and, and I do wanna qualify what I'm gonna say with, I stay in my lane and my lane right now is developmental editing, consultative book support and ghostwriting.
So I refer people out to others for the marketing aspects of the book. But that said, some really critical marketing things to pay attention to. The back cover of the book. That is often, and I, you know, I haven't checked the statistics lately, but it used to be the second place people went when they were checking out a book after they looked at the cover.
I think that you wanna be able to have sound bites around the book, so you wanna be able to explain what it is in a sentence, and that gets used all over the place, whether it's social media, whether you're doing radio, whether you're on a television show. Whatever it is, there's on your website, all of that and more These days, your promotion is about your reach, and that includes whether you decide to self-publish or do a hybrid publishing deal or go with the traditional publisher, you're gonna be responsible for promoting your book.
It is a rare situation unless you're an Obama or someone. Where a traditional publishing house is gonna put a lot of money into promoting your title, so that falls on you. So along those lines, I would encourage anybody who is thinking about doing a book launch to start to groom and grow their online audience, whether that's wherever it is, everybody has a place that they're most comfortable with.
It might be LinkedIn, it might be Facebook. Believe it or not, the horse titles that I do market best on Pinterest, and I'm not marketing the title directly, but for example, one thing that I did is I did a series of 50 young horse training tips and I put them on a common graphic and put 'em out there with my website address on it, and that still drives book sales.
And I don't even say I have a book with them, but people pass them around. So you'd be surprised where the best online place might be. You know, might be Instagram. It just depends. But I think it behooves any author who's thinking, any first time author who's thinking about putting a book out there to start considering where they can best engage with their audience online and to build that up.
Nice. Thank you for that. Um, so I'm gonna take you on a little left turn here because this is powerful and unpolished and a lot of times, most times, almost all the time on powerful and unpolished, uh, we talk about the professionals, the people, the leaders that we have on the show, and we talk about what, you know, what they're doing, what they're working on, what they do for a living, stuff like this.
But ultimately it's about who they are. And you just talked about. The horses, the, the horse tips and stuff like this. So, uh, share with our listeners here a little bit. Tell us about a little bit about your back horse history. Well, for, for about 20 years, I ran 117 acre farm. Upstate New York, and when I say upstate New York, I'm talking western New York, not the suburbs of New York City.
I was about an hour south of Rochester in a little town called and did a lot of horse training there, primarily young horse training. And we also bred Irish draft sport courses. So that, that's, that's kind of my recreation slash hobbies slash. Half of my income generator for 20 years of my life. Wow. So I, I knew you had that extensive history, but it, it really, I'm gonna tie it in here.
So for those of you who are thinking about maybe joining the bootcamp, the, the, the book camp or, uh, looking into it, um. I bring up Annette's background because there's a lot of work around equine therapy and equine work, and I would say that with the wisdom that this young lady has, that she has been working with the horses, I mean, and horses are, you know, I, I don't know, Nanette, you have your own version, but my perspective of horses is they, they are divine creatures.
They are, you know, um, there, there's so much wisdom and, and. Insight that these characters have, that to be able to work with them consistently and the different breeds and and things like that, to then turn around and be able to work with human beings. You know, that's really good. I mean, she, I would, I would say there were maybe a couple times where I was probably starting to head off the path because of my certain ideas and, you know, she just kind of had a conversation with me and redirected me back to, oh, this is what I'm here to achieve.
This is what I'm focused on. Don't go get lost in the weeds. And so, um, you know, maybe your book writing experience might be similar to mine, where, you know. She, she's your editor. But the truth is, is she's kind of like your, your equine coach or equine, you know, she's guy, she's guiding me like a big horse.
Let's just say that. I was more of a draft horse. Well, I, I might work better with horses than people too. She's probably still out on that one. I was gonna say, yeah, nowadays you might, you might enjoy working with horses better than people, but, um. I enjoy working with people. You know, it's funny, I'm at a point in my career now where I can be a little choosy about the clients that I decide to work with, and because of that I absolutely relish all of the clients that I work with.
And if that's not happening, I refer them to somebody more appropriate. So it's, it's a nice place to be. That's why I do this podcast, to be honest with you. I meet so many different people. I, I, I do dig people. I mean, I, I really, uh, when you have individuals who show up in their spirit, show up in their, their, their unique presence, um, and they're sharing that with the world.
I think you should be honored. Um, that's one reason why I created the show. It's one reason, part of the messaging that I have in my book, that I have in my business that I work with, my, my personal clients, my private clients, and the trains that we do, is all about honoring the individual. Not just their ideas, but the heart, the soul, the essence, the energy that they bring to the experience that, that is the human experience.
I mean. You know, if we were all just our ideas, that'd be a pretty empty existence. But when we actually start to connect, you know, our head to our heart and, and, and our whole being, our soulness about it, it makes things magic. I mean, it's one reason, go, go back through the history of time, and this goes with those writers that are out there.
Human beings from the beginning of time have been storytellers. Oratory. I mean, we, we share our, our history, not only public history, but our personal, our individual history. It's, it's what we do to connect ourselves to our path, to our purpose in this world, and to be able to, you know, if you have a, a message in you that is really working to come out.
You know, give yourself a fighting chance and, and find a professional out there. You know, maybe reach out to Nanette and, you know, check out this experience and see what it does for you. Or, you know, get a reference to someone else that you know, but, but do something with it. Don't let that, um, I've heard this a lot lately.
Don't let that song die within you. Don't let it, don't let it expire because you never got around to doing it. Well, and along those lines, Tim, you had asked me earlier about some tips for first time authors, and one of the tips that I would have is don't take writer's block at face value. Don't, don't accept writer's block as a given.
There are so many easy ways to get around that, and so some of the things that I would suggest is if you're having trouble getting your thoughts out, start the day before. If you're doing some writing, give yourself a prompt as you finish up the day so that you can dive right into the next step. If you're not.
Feeling excited and motivated by what you're writing about, write about something else. You do not have to complete a book in order. You can jump to something that you're feeling really passionate about at the moment. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it's not an essay you need to submit to your professor the next day, right?
It's R, right, because it means something to you. I would suggest is that you get into a writing routine and that can be 10 or 15 minutes a day. It doesn't have to be long. If you want it to go longer after you've done your 10 or 15 minutes a day, you can pat yourself on the back for the accomplishment and go on.
But I think it makes a really big difference if you make writing part of your daily routine, and that doesn't always have to be book writing. If you're not feeling inspired to write a book. Page or chapter, write a journal entry or a poem or whatever. But just get into that routine. And I think what you'll find is on the days that you don't do it, you miss it.
That really helps. So just a few ideas for anybody who's feeling stuck about writing. Yeah, build up that. Build up that habit. Build up that, that need to express yourself. 'cause you're worth it. You're worth expressing yourself in these ideas and putting your voice out there in this way. Like sometimes I want to add to what you just said, Nanette, which is.
Sometimes people think, oh, you know, these guys kind of say what I say and these guys kind of say, what? Yeah, but they don't say it the way you say it. So it's like, just 'cause you might find other books, other voices out there that might be similar to yours. Don't let that suppress your, your need to express yourself to, to speak your voice.
Right. Your voice is worth being heard. I, I do mean that It's like, there will be people listening to this who'll have an opinion going, well, I don't know if I wanna hear their voice or, you know, stuff like this. But it's like, no, it, it, it's worth being heard, you know, if anything, just to learn something about that person, right?
And so, be willing to honor yourself and honor your voice and, you know, see where it takes you real quick. Nanette, I want to ask you, um. So some people might be like book camp. What is book camp like? Like what's the experience of it? Can you give us a little insight there? Absolutely. It's a 12 week program that is peer supported, combined with professional editing and consultative support for me on three chapters of your book and creating a rough table of contents and all of that.
So it's designed to get people into. A writing rhythm over a 12 week period that they can then use as information to go finish a manuscript. And it should be a lot of fun. This is a new initiative, so Nice. We'll, we'll, we'll see how it goes. I'm excited about it. And the main reason beyond what we had talked about earlier that I wanted to offer this is I wanted to create something that was more affordable for people.
Who were looking for professional support and also that included a peer support component. 'cause that is not something that I generally do. We cap it at six people, so it's an intimate group and over 12 weeks you will have cheerleaders and commiserate and everybody else along for the ride with you. Wow, excellent.
Now, how can they get ahold of you? Do, do they go to book conductors.com or, or tell, tell us. They do that and there's a whole, uh, new section on book camp on there. You can click through it from the homepage, both from the pull down menu, and there's also a block at the above the fold on the homepage.
People can email me at Nanette. That's N-A-N-E-T-T e@bookconductors.com. Nice. Any offers around this? Yeah, as I said, this is a new program, so anybody who wants to jump on, and I am not sure when we're gonna start, part of the application form includes some questions around what days and times work best for everybody.
So we're gonna figure out when we're gonna do it based on what is most comfortable for the people who jump in. So anybody who. Puts in an application and wind up participating in the adventure can get 30% off now through May 1st of the program. And just, just tell 'em Tim sent Well, yeah, just say, just let 'em know.
Um, let Annette know or whoever that you heard about it on, you know, the podcast, powerful and unpolished. Um, and. 30% off to have professional support, a, a cohesive, small, pure group that actually is, you know, invested as well. Um, there's, there's a ton of value in this experience and to bring your voice, to bring your message out into the world.
It's worth, it's worth honoring yourself in that experience. So, yeah, I, I'm really excited about it, Tim. I really am. And what part of what this includes is personal one-on-one time with me. Not only editing three chapters, but having one-on-one conversations about book challenges and issues and ideas moving forward.
So I think it'll be a lot of fun for everybody involved. I, I would encourage you that if this is something that you're seriously contemplating thinking about, definitely reach out to nanette@bookconductors.com or nanette@bookconductors.com. And, um, you know, it, it's, we're, we're putting out this exposure and, you know, let's see if we can get this filled up.
It may fill up relatively soon. I just saw yesterday that we've had over 50 different countries. Listen to this podcast, powerful and un polished. And I'm like going, wow, I didn't even didn't realize that. You know? And it, it may just be one person who clicked on it for a little bit. I have no idea. But, you know, somebody's out there at least intrigued enough to listen to it.
And you know, for those of you who are, um. We're, we're going into a new world and, and the new world is really kind of like step in, lean into your voice, put your voice out there, and, you know, see the kind of impact that you can create for yourself and, and your future moving forward. So, um, and your first book, your second book, it, it can be, uh, uh, it can be whatever you wanna make of it.
My mine became a seed. I didn't realize that's what I was doing when I actually wrote the book, but it became a seed to help others nurture and grow themselves, and which is quite honestly growing me, greater than I ever thought I would or could. So I want to thank you so much for being here today, Nanette.
Um, it is such a gift to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I really appreciate it and I'm super excited about this and can't thank you enough for helping me spread the little word a little bit about books. Yeah. Well, let me know. I mean, you know, if anybody else kind of steps in and, or you know, maybe it's not for you, but maybe it's someone that you're listening to, maybe you have a little brother or a little sister, or you know, your wife or your husband has, has been contemplating this.
It's like, you know, what a gift to give them something that, that. Helps to guide them through this whole process and, you know, get, get the minutia out of the way so that the message can come through. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. Very big deal. Um, I'm gonna say that again. It's a very big deal, believe me, but.
To all of our listeners, you are a blessing. Thank you for taking the time outta your day. We hope that this has enriched you. Um, if you like the show, please hit the, like, follow us, um, share it with a friend and just know that we here at Powerful and Unpolished and also Insights for Choice. It's really about working and connecting with individuals so that they.
They can stand in their power, not only the power of their intelligence, but the power of their emotional intelligence, the, the power of recognizing who they are in this world and what else can stand out for them as individuals and as a collective. Okay? So treat each other well while you're out there and until next time.
We wish you all the best. Have a wonderful week ahead of you. Take care.
